Soldiers Undertaking Higher Levels of Sustained Combat Duty Than Vietnam & WWII

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Grinding the military into the ground. Damn shame how we are treating our soldiers!

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US to increase Iraq tours despite trauma warnings (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,2107540,00.html)

Simon Tisdall in Washington
Wednesday June 20, 2007
Guardian Unlimited

The Pentagon is making plans to extend combat tours to Iraq despite a study showing troops who have undertaken at least one war zone deployment are experiencing serious psychological problems.

The newly-published official report says hundreds of thousands of the more than 1 million US troops serving in Iraq or Afghanistan are facing severe mental health issues, including post-traumatic stress disorder, depression and anxiety.

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2007/06/11/ussoldier372ready.jpg
The report says even one tour of duty could have serious psychological effects on soldiers. Photograph: Maya Alleruzzo/AP

Peter Geren, the acting army secretary, told Congress this week that extended tours of frontline duty could be ordered if president George Bush decides to extend the 30,000-strong troop surge in Iraq beyond this September.

General David Petraeus, the US commander in Iraq, indicated at the weekend that the surge was unlikely to achieve its objectives before next year.

"We're committed to filling the requirements that the combatant commander asks," Mr Geren told the Senate armed services committee.

"We have been able to do so up until now and we will continue to do so." He added that while no decisions had been made about extending combat tours, "we have to begin to plan, we have to look at our options".

Mr Geren's comments came days after the Pentagon's mental health taskforce reported that US troops were undertaking higher levels of sustained combat duty than during Vietnam and the second world war; and the strain was telling.

The taskforce found that 38% of soldiers, 31% of marines, 49% of national guard members and 43% of marine reservists exhibited symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), depression, anxiety or other psychological problems within three months of returning from active duty.

Symptoms of PTSD and traumatic brain injury - the two so-called "signature injuries" associated with service in Iraq and Afghanistan - included nightmares, insomnia, anger and alcohol and substance abuse, it said.

The report also pointed to inadequate mental healthcare provision and facilities, lack of trained staff, and entrenched prejudice about mental health problems.

"Stigma in the military remains pervasive and often prevents service members from seeking needed care," the report said. Soldiers' reluctance to admit to illness meant that the overall problem was probably even bigger than current research indicated, it suggested.

It also questioned the practice of returning soldiers to front-line duty while they were taking medication, such as lithium and Prozac.

The US currently has about 155,000 troops in Iraq. Most typically spend 15 months in combat zones with a guaranteed 12 months at home - a breach of the Pentagon's own rules that say equal time should be spent on and off duty.

Despite the deployment of national guard and other reservists, many soldiers are on a third tour in a war that has lasted longer than the 1941-45 conflict with the Axis powers.

Vice-Admiral Donald Arthur, co-chairman of the Pentagon taskforce, said today there was "no doubt" that more numerous and lengthier deployments were exacerbating mental health problems.

"Not since Vietnam have we seen this level of combat," he said. But the "horror of combat" and the stress it caused were difficult to convey to people who had not experienced it.

"We have to find ways to measure the resilience of people we send into combat. We have lots of ways of measuring physical resilience, such as how fast you can run, but not how hardened they are mentally," Adm Arthur said.

Other taskforce recommendations included increased resources for mental health treatment, expanded recruitment of qualified health workers, and paying more attention to the families, particularly the children, of those soldiers affected.

An army study, based on research conducted in Iraq last year, has also urged a reduction in combat duties to reduce psychological stress. It said troops should receive a month break for every three months spent in a combat zone. But that proposal was rejected out of hand this week by a senior aide to Lieutenant General Raymond Odierno, the Iraq ground forces commander.

"We would never get the job done," Brigadier General Joseph Anderson told USA Today.

Heightened concerns over soldiers' mental health follows close on a scandal over inadequate treatment of wounded soldiers returning to the US. The army secretary, Francis Harvey, the army surgeon general, and the commander of the Walter Reed military hospital all lost their jobs in the wake of the row earlier this year.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Black military recruits drop by a third (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07176/796996-84.stm)
Unpopular wars, improved job climate blamed in enlistment decline

Monday, June 25, 2007
By Lolita C. Baldor, The Associated Press

WASHINGTON -- The number of blacks joining the military has plunged by more than one-third since the Afghanistan and Iraq wars began. Other job prospects are soaring and relatives of potential recruits increasingly are discouraging them from joining the armed services.

According to data obtained by The Associated Press, the decline covers all four military services for active duty recruits. The drop is even more dramatic when National Guard and Reserve recruiting is included.

The findings reflect the growing unpopularity of the wars, particularly among family members and other adults who exert influence over high school and college students considering the military as a place to serve their country, further their education or build a career.

Walking past the Army recruiting station in downtown Washington, D.C., this past week, Sean Glover said he has done all he can to talk black relatives out of joining the military.

"I don't think it's a good time. I don't support the government's efforts here and abroad," said Mr. Glover, 36. "There's other ways you can pay for college. There's other ways you can get your life together. Joining the Army, the military, comes at a very high price."

The message comes as no surprise to the Pentagon. At the Defense Department, efforts are under way to increase the size of the Army and Marine Corps so the country can better wage what the military believes will be a long battle against terrorism.

"The global war on terror has taken its toll, no question," said Curt Gilroy, the Pentagon's director of accession policy, in an Associated Press interview.

Marine Commandant Gen. James T. Conway agreed that the bloodshed in Iraq -- where more than 3,540 U.S. troops have died -- is the biggest deterrent for prospective recruits.

"The daily death toll that comes out is, I think, causing people who are the influencers of young men and women in America to take a second look," he said. "So I think that's probably the single most dominant feature."

According to Pentagon data, there were nearly 51,500 new black recruits for active duty and reserves in 2001. That number fell to less than 32,000 in 2006, a 38 percent decline.

When only active duty troops are counted, the number of black recruits went from more than 31,000 in 2002 to about 23,600 in 2006, almost one-quarter fewer.

The decline is particularly stark for the Army. Blacks represented about 23 percent of the active Army's enlisted recruits in 2000, but 12.4 percent in 2006.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Memo to DBruleU, codeman, Barry Ramey, and all Bush/Iraq war supporters:

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/uncle-sam/images/uncle-sam-wants-you.jpg

[TailgateNut]

Nice try. Repukes don't enlist to serve, they just vote to send others to war to do their dirty deeds!

D-man excluded!

[Chupacabra]

Leading statistics. "symptoms"

I intend to serve upon graduation. In fact, nearly every person I know that has served is a "repuke."

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Leading statistics. "symptoms"
I intend to serve upon graduation. In fact, nearly every person I know that has served is a "repuke."Go get em goat sucker!

[TailgateNut]

Leading statistics. "symptoms"

I intend to serve upon graduation. ."


I hope the war will be over by the time you graduate. We don't have the "manpower" to hold them back for a few more decades!;D

[Spider]

I hope the war will be over by the time you graduate. We don't have the "manpower" to hold them back for a few more decades!;D

LOL ........

[Chupacabra]

I hope the war will be over by the time you graduate. We don't have the "manpower" to hold them back for a few more decades!;D

I graduate in May 2008 whereupon I will be going to OCS with the Marine Corps. I could easily go to law school given my GPA and LSAT scores...but I've got friends who are fighting for their lives in Iraq and they need all the help they can get.

[Chupacabra]

And just to clarify for Spider... GPA stands for Grade Point Average, which is the grading of a student's work quantitatively. The LSAT is the Law School Admission Test administered by the Law School Admission Council (LSAC), intended to provide law schools in the United States and Canada "a standard measure of acquired reading and verbal reasoning skills that law schools can use as one of several factors in assessing applicants."

[Spider]

I graduate in May 2008 whereupon I will be going to OCS with the Marine Corps. I could easily go to law school given my GPA and LSAT scores...but I've got friends who are fighting for their lives in Iraq and they need all the help they can get.

LOL you call yourself help ?

[Chupacabra]

LOL you call yourself help ?

Right now as a civilian...no. The only thing I do for my country is try to remind people like you that no matter your ideology, political stances, feelings about Bush, etc., the men and women over there are risking their lives to accomplish missions. And for that, they deserve the utmost respect and reverence from people like us who are sitting on the computer talking about it.

Upon graduation from TBS following OCS, I will surely be capable of helping given the Marine Corps. training. You are just pissed that you lack the balls, integrity, honor and heart to do anything productive for your country. Now, I won't claim that I have any of the above yet...because nothing is a given and I haven't completed my training. But it is something that I am aspiring to do. And I will be honored if I am able to help my countrymen in any way possible.

[Spider]

Right now as a civilian...no. The only thing I do for my country is try to remind people like you that no matter your ideology, political stances, feelings about Bush, etc., the men and women over there are risking their lives to accomplish missions. And for that, they deserve the utmost respect and reverence from people like us who are sitting on the computer talking about it.

Upon graduation from TBS following OCS, I will surely be capable of helping given the Marine Corps. training. You are just pissed that you lack the balls, integrity, honor and heart to do anything productive for your country. Now, I won't claim that I have any of the above yet...because nothing is a given and I haven't completed my training. But it is something that I am aspiring to do. And I will be honored if I am able to help my countrymen in any way possible.
LOL is that a fact little boy ?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I graduate in May 2008 whereupon I will be going to OCS with the Marine Corps. I could easily go to law school given my GPA and LSAT scores...but I've got friends who are fighting for their lives in Iraq and they need all the help they can get.More than likely (hopefully) we will be winding down this clusterf**ked quagmire by then so you can go on to school.

[Chupacabra]

LOL is that a fact little boy ?

Specificly, is what a fact?

[Chupacabra]

More than likely (hopefully) we will be winding down this cluster****ed quagmire by then so you can go on to school.

Very true. I plan on going to school after my 3 1/2 year service period. It's family tradition and whether we are at war or not, I still feel the call.

[Spider]

Specificly, is what a fact?

this stupid .......You are just pissed that you lack the balls, integrity, honor and heart to do anything productive for your country.

[Chupacabra]

this stupid .......

Maybe...Maybe not. Refute the assumption. What productive thing have you done for your country?

[Chupacabra]

Maybe...Maybe not. Refute the assumption. What productive thing have you done for your country?

Other than your obvious contribution to interstate commerce and the economy. And I say this with all respectfulness and sincerity.

[Spider]

Maybe...Maybe not. Refute the assumption. What productive thing have you done for your country?

well I think you are a ****ing liar , you claim you graduate in 2008 , yet you clearly stated you support and voted in this post http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=1626019&postcount=31
How in the hell can you vote before you are 18?
I wont refute an assumption from you , not with my opinion of you ......care less what you think little boy ...........Besides you got your handsfull covering up for the lies

[Hotrod]

Nice try. Repukes don't enlist to serve, they just vote to send others to war to do their dirty deeds!

D-man excluded!

Thats Bull ****

[Spider]

Other than your obvious contribution to interstate commerce and the economy. And I say this with all respectfulness and sincerity.

I say this with all sincerity , at your age , you re off on a bad start lying .... take advice from someone who has socks older then you , be up front , be honest , and dont mince words , People may not like it , but you have astand in life .......

[Chupacabra]

well I think you are a ****ing liar , you claim you graduate in 2008 , yet you clearly stated you support and voted in this post http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=1626019&postcount=31
How in the hell can you vote before you are 18?
I wont refute an assumption from you , not with my opinion of you ......care less what you think little boy ...........Besides you got your handsfull covering up for the lies

I voted in 2004, sorry for the lack of clarity. I was born April 19, 1986.

[Chupacabra]

I say this with all sincerity , at your age , you re off on a bad start lying .... take advice from someone who has socks older then you , be up front , be honest , and dont mince words , People may not like it , but you have astand in life .......

I didn't lie.

[Spider]

I voted in 2004, sorry for the lack of clarity. I was born April 19, 1986.

so your are in College , getting ready to leave to serve in the Military ? why didnt you go right after high school ?

[Chupacabra]

I say this with all sincerity , at your age , you re off on a bad start lying .... take advice from someone who has socks older then you , be up front , be honest , and dont mince words , People may not like it , but you have astand in life .......

I didn't say which election I voted in. I graduated HS in 2004.

The question remains. What have you done, besides your contribution to the economy and interstate commerce given your profession, have you done that has been productive for your country?

[Spider]

I didn't lie.

ok benifit of a doubt , I could be wrong ........... Just trying ot figure out why someone so gungho for the war wouldnt sign up after High school ? More important matters ?

[Chupacabra]

so your are in College , getting ready to leave to serve in the Military ? why didnt you go right after high school ?

1) I didn't feel the call of duty until last year.

That may lead to another question...why didn't I leave school to serve? I want to lead. I want to serve as an officer.

[Spider]

I didn't say which election I voted in. I graduated HS in 2004.

The question remains. What have you done, besides your contribution to the economy and interstate commerce given your profession, have you done that has been productive for your country?

I bitch slap Idiots around ......... Before that I was denied getting into the Military over a attempted murder charge ........ Next .........

[Chupacabra]

1) I didn't feel the call of duty until last year.

That may lead to another question...why didn't I leave school to serve? I want to lead. I want to serve as an officer.

It was winter break of my junior year when I became set upon serving. At that point, I figured I should finish the year & half to be an officer. I look forward to the opportunity to lead marines, the pay is better, and the old adage that life as an officer is better.

[Spider]

1) I didn't feel the call of duty until last year.

That may lead to another question...why didn't I leave school to serve? I want to lead. I want to serve as an officer.

oh ...I see , didnt have the gungho urge back then , this is something new ...... you want ot be an officer hey ........ you think becoming an officer is easy ?

[Chupacabra]

oh ...I see , didnt have the gungho urge back then , this is something new ...... you want ot be an officer hey ........ you think becoming an officer is easy ?

Nothing worthwhile is easy.

I wouldn't call myself gungho. Eager to serve and help, yes.

[Spider]

It was winter break of my junior year when I became set upon serving. At that point, I figured I should finish the year & half to be an officer. I look forward to the opportunity to lead marines, the pay is better, and the old adage that life as an officer is better.

Pay ? I thought this was about getting in and Helping ..........

[Chupacabra]

oh ...I see , didnt have the gungho urge back then , this is something new ...... you want ot be an officer hey ........ you think becoming an officer is easy ?

Relatively new, yes. I considered it during my sophomore year. I didn't become 100% set on the idea until winter break last year. It's been about 6 months.

[Chupacabra]

Pay ? I thought this was about getting in and Helping ..........

I did. But I'd be lying if I said the difference in pay grade didn't contribute to my decision to become an officer. As you can see, I didn't place that at the top of my list.

[Spider]

Relatively new, yes. I considered it during my sophomore year. I didn't become 100% set on the idea until winter break last year. It's been about 6 months.

well despite the fact we dont like each other , I wish you have a safe tour ..........

[Spider]

I did. But I'd be lying if I said the difference in pay grade didn't contribute to my decision to become an officer. As you can see, I didn't place that at the top of my list.

ok .......fair enough I do my Job out of civil pride , but the pay is just important .......

[Chupacabra]

What have you done, besides your contribution to the economy and interstate commerce given your profession, that has been productive for your country?

[Chupacabra]

well despite the fact we dont like each other , I wish you have a safe tour ..........

I appreciate that sentiment. Unfortunately, from the way you react to good news from Iraq, I'd say that it stems from our shared love for the Broncos, and not your good will to our troops.

[Chupacabra]

What have you done, besides your contribution to the economy and interstate commerce given your profession, that has been productive for your country?

Since you aren't going to answer. Let me clarify my position. Serving is just one of the many honrable ways to service one's country. In respect to the situations that have come about on this board....I'd say that one way is to celebrate the good things that our soldiers are doing for the people of Iraq and the people of the United States. You can be against the war, against the president, etc. but good things have happened in Iraq. To ignore the bright spots is to exemplify a higher level of ignorance.

[Spider]

I appreciate that sentiment. Unfortunately, from the way you react to good news from Iraq, I'd say that it stems from our shared love for the Broncos, and not your good will to our troops.

good news out of Iraq ? real simple , we shouldnt be there , no good news will change that , as long as Americans are dying , no good News will make up for that ........News is all in interpretation ........

[Spider]

Since you aren't going to answer. Let me clarify my position. Serving is just one of the many honrable ways to service one's country. In respect to the situations that have come about on this board....I'd say that one way is to celebrate the good things that our soldiers are doing for the people of Iraq and the people of the United States. You can be against the war, against the president, etc. but good things have happened in Iraq. To ignore the bright spots is to exemplify a higher level of ignorance.

Bull .......... again with the reading thing ...... I already told you I bitch slap Idiots for my country

[Rigs11]

Enlisting in a BS war is not patriotic, it's stupid. You will most likely end up getting killed or maimed.And for what? To do something for your country? It's crap.If this was a war worth fighting, or a war that was planned, or a war against a country that had posed a threat than yeah you might have a point.Hell it ain't even a war it's an occupation. If you really want to help your country out stand up for it against this corrupt government that is sending it's young men and women to die so that it's corporations can make money.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Nothing worthwhile is easy.
I wouldn't call myself gungho. Eager to serve and help, yes.Then I suggest you join the Navy or Air Force. If you plan on being an officer in the Army or Marines you damn well better be "gungho".

[Chupacabra]

Enlisting in a BS war is not patriotic, it's stupid. You will most likely end up getting killed or maimed.And for what? To do something for your country? It's crap.If this was a war worth fighting, or a war that was planned, or a war against a country that had posed a threat than yeah you might have a point.Hell it ain't even a war it's an occupation. If you really want to help your country out stand up for it against this corrupt government that is sending it's young men and women to die so that it's corporations can make money.

That is the biggest load of BS ever.

I've said this plenty of times. I will say it again. Enlisting in ANY war in which Americans are dying is patriotic. Many of the men and women go to war to help protect the American lives that are at risk. Many go to fight for the soldiers that are already there. They go to fight for their brothers in arms. They definitely don't go to fight for POS like you. Pat Tillman believed the Iraq war was illegal. Why did he go? Because he was a patriot and felt the call of duty to protect his fellow Americans.

If I die or if I'm maimed.....it won't be for political reasons. Or for social reasons. It will be to help/save the other men that are fighting.

[Chupacabra]

Then I suggest you join the Navy or Air Force. If you plan on being an officer in the Army or Marines you damn well better be "gungho".

I understand. I just don't want to be associated with the negative side of being "gungho." I'm ready for the intensity, so I spose you could say I'm gungho.

[Rigs11]

That is the biggest load of BS ever.

I've said this plenty of times. I will say it again. Enlisting in ANY war in which Americans are dying is patriotic. Many of the men and women go to war to help protect the American lives that are at risk. Many go to fight for the soldiers that are already there. They go to fight for their brothers in arms. They definitely don't go to fight for POS like you. Pat Tillman believed the Iraq war was illegal. Why did he go? Because he was a patriot and felt the call of duty to protect his fellow Americans.

If I die or if I'm maimed.....it won't be for political reasons. Or for social reasons. It will be to help/save the other men that are fighting.

Protect us from what?Geez that dubya has really gotten into your head. They aren't protecting anyone over there except themselves.So you're gonna enlist just to be a patriot? You've been watching way too much private ryan.Pat tillman went to afghanistan genius.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I understand. I just don't want to be associated with the negative side of being "gungho." I'm ready for the intensity, so I spose you could say I'm gungho.The intensity is part of it but the mental frame you need to survive OCS or the Point is the whole thing. You have to want it in a major way or you are just wasting everyone's time including yours. Joining just to be able to show off a gold bar won't cut it. 2nd LTs don't command very much respect out of school by senior officers or even enlisted personnel. You'll have to go through a couple years at least of earning some respect.

[Chupacabra]

Protect us from what?Geez that dubya has really gotten into your head. They aren't protecting anyone over there except themselves.So you're gonna enlist just to be a patriot? You've been watching way too much private ryan.Pat tillman went to afghanistan genius.

Pat Tillman went to Iraq first, genius.

The president has nothing to do with this. You join to help out the soldiers.

[Chupacabra]

The intensity is part of it but the mental frame you need to survive OCS or the Point is the whole thing. You have to want it in a major way or you are just wasting everyone's time including yours. Joining just to be able to show off a gold bar won't cut it. 2nd LTs don't command very much respect out of school by senior officers or even enlisted personnel. You'll have to go through a couple years at least of earning some respect.

I understand the mental aspect of it as well. I've got several close friends that have recieved their commission through the PLC program.
I think I've covered the reasons I'm joining. It has nothing to do with what you've suggested.
With all due respect... You don't know me or my background. This is a family tradition and something that I feel called to do. You only know of what I've briefly stated on here. I know what I'm facing going into OCS. Its something I've set my sights on and something that I've been preparing for and will continue to prepare for. You aren't the first naysayer I've come across and certainly not the last. Think/say what you want...but this is the path I've chosen.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I understand the mental aspect of it as well. I've got several close friends that have recieved their commission through the PLC program.
I think I've covered the reasons I'm joining. It has nothing to do with what you've suggested.
With all due respect... You don't know me or my background. This is a family tradition and something that I feel called to do. You only know of what I've briefly stated on here. I know what I'm facing going into OCS. Its something I've set my sights on and something that I've been preparing for and will continue to prepare for. You aren't the first naysayer I've come across and certainly not the last. Think/say what you want...but this is the path I've chosen.I haven't really suggested any reasons for joining and not saying you shouldn't. Just shinning some light on what you will be getting into. Lousy money, unending hours, being subservient and constantly being reassigned from one place to another.

If you are smart as you say are then you know you are giving up a good financial future, a stable home life and the freedoms and peace of mind those things bring.

[Chupacabra]

I haven't really suggested any reasons for joining and not saying you shouldn't. Just shinning some light on what you will be getting into. Lousy money, unending hours, being subservient and constantly being reassigned from one place to another.

If you are smart as you say are then you know you are giving up a good financial future, a stable home life and the freedoms and peace of mind those things bring.

I think this will help my financial future. Hopefully, it will help me get into a top tier law school. They like work experience on your application...and I'd argue that public service combined with the regimented atmosphere of the USMC will only strengthen my app. My alternative is to go straight to law school. While somewhat appealing...I kinda need a break from school. And I probably wouldn't get accepted into my ideal school. I really would like to come back to UT for law school.

I'm only serving 3 1/2 years. I'll be 25 turning 26 when I'm finished with the military. I don't want/need a stable home life until later. I'm young and rambling...this will be one of the adventures I look back.

[Rigs11]

Well good luck chupacabra. I hope that things work out for you and that you make it back safe. If it was my choice i would not go but to each his own.good luck.