Crowder is standing out at camps

[Kaylore]

http://www.denverpost.com/preps/ci_6134135

Broncos assistant head coach/defense Jim Bates on the team's D line: "There's nothing like competition going into the preseason. It's great to have this young blood and some real good veterans. It's going to be an interesting camp." For the record, he said that before Sam Adams and Jimmy Kennedy arrived. ...

The Bronx traded up to draft Jarvis Moss, then packaged three picks to get Marcus Thomas. So which one looks more ready to contribute as a rookie? At the moment, neither of the above. Their most impressive young lineman has been second-rounder Tim Crowder. Said Bates, "He's showing good technique and he's very intense. He's done a real good job." ...

Sure, Adams and Kennedy figure to be impact players. Then again, I give you Daryl Gardener, Luther Elliss, Raylee Johnson and Marco Coleman, big names one and all whose tanks proved empty after arriving at 5280.

Mike Heimerdinger, Mike Shanahan's right-hand man on offense, on bringing in a new starting tailback (Travis Henry) and tight end (Daniel Graham): "A quarterback has to make plays, but you've also got to do some things around him. If not, it doesn't matter how good they are. John (Elway) was pretty darn good, but when T.D. (Terrell Davis) got in there, it took the pressure off him. ... The surrounding cast has to fall into place, too." ...

[CBF1]

I guess the impact that Hixon is making needs no mention :)

[Los Broncos]

Sounds like he doing well. Keep up the good work, it will pay off.

[Requiem]

Hate to say I told you so awwwight. That's my BOY!

[bendog]

Hixon will have 13 sacks this year.

Seriously, what's up with Moss' conditioning? I think it'll be a roation of Thomas mainly for Big Fat and Kennedy rotating in both slots. Tough for a rook DT. Moss should have some impact. Crowder always figured to be the most complete package, initially.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I think that we all should have known that Crowder would show the most early signs. Crowder comes in a more complete player with the most experience.

Let's hope Crowder is able to master the technique in time to be a real contributor this season.

[Requiem]

Tim Crowder dribbles the football.

[Drek]

Hixon will have 13 sacks this year.

Seriously, what's up with Moss' conditioning? I think it'll be a roation of Thomas mainly for Big Fat and Kennedy rotating in both slots. Tough for a rook DT. Moss should have some impact. Crowder always figured to be the most complete package, initially.

Its probably less a conditioning issue and more a strength/fundamentals thing. Moss had limited time on the field in college and needs to add weight before he's going to be an every down type.

Crowder on the other hand contributed all four years at Texas and is a bigger, stronger player. I've been saying since the draft that I expect him to take a starting DE role. He'll obviously get subbed out on passing downs but outside of Ekuban and McKinley he's about the only guy we have big enough to hold up in the running game.

[Rascal]

Doesn't really surprise me as I've stated I thought he and Thomas would contribute the most this year. I always thought Moss would take another year to develop.

[Popps]

Fantastic news.

[Kaylore]

Hate to say I told you so awwwight. That's my BOY!

I'm on record as not being a big Crowder fan. This is mostly because he doesn't fit our defense and he isn't very quick. I will say that he is themost physically ready to go of any of our picks and so that will help him get more playing time faster. It is only mini-camp and when the pads come on, things change.

[cutthemdown]

We all know these tidbits of information are carefully thought out before delivery. Training camp hasn't even started yet so I doubt Bates really knows who will be ready to contribute this year. I for one feel it's more realisitic to hope Dumerville improves on his 8 sacks. Hopefully the big DT can have an impact this yr. Warren stays healthy. Ekuban stays healthy. Lang stays healthy. Then maybe we can get some contribution from the rookies. But to expect rookies to play a significant role this year is a reach. Even if just one of the rookie dlineman play well this year and start we would be doing really good.

[(Jae)]

http://www.denverpost.com/preps/ci_6134135

Luther Elliss, Raylee Johnson and Marco Coleman, big names one and all whose tanks proved empty after arriving at 5280.



lol, I remember you guys hyping him up so much when he first came here.
I think he was "Hixon" before Darius Watts.
No more retreads!

[Requiem]

I'm on record as not being a big Crowder fan. This is mostly because he doesn't fit our defense and he isn't very quick. I will say that he is themost physically ready to go of any of our picks and so that will help him get more playing time faster. It is only mini-camp and when the pads come on, things change.

I think he showed the quickness he has in his workouts, and if he didn't fit our defense - we wouldn't have drafted him. He has good lateral movement, and he's a good athlete, well - he was better than advertised. From what I've seen, I thought he closed and attacked the pocket quite well.

Maybe on your "quck" comment, are you saying he isn't quick coming off the ball? He has had trouble judging snap counts in college, but overall I guess I disagree with you.

Crowder will be a Greg Ellis type player. A solid defensive end who can be strong against the run and be a solid, but not spectacular player against the pass. I think Moss and Dumervil will be fine as our pass-rushing ends. However, Crowder does offer that ability, and he also offers the ability to anchor down for the first two downs, and perhaps in time - be a three down player.

[ZONA]

I liked the Crowder pick. I loved the fact that we took 3 DL in the 1st 4 picks. Many of us here kept expressing that was our wish and it happened. Thank god.

[cmhargrove]

If I remember correctly, Ekuban's contract is up next year. Meet Tim Crowder, our new Ebeneezer Ekuban.

Maybe not a league leader, but hopefully a very good all around contributor.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

I agree with Kaylore, lets all relax. This is all conjecture. It's not two hand touch football. The only reason this is being picked apart is because of the 24/7/365 media coverage of football nowadays.

[Requiem]

I'm just glad we got Crowder. He's a versatile guy, and he'll be a nice compliment to Jarvis Moss - we have our ends of the future on the right and left sides set, and we have a specialist in Elvis Dumervil - and a hopeful anchor on the inside in Marcus Thomas, the only other spot that's missing - is the other defensive tackle, but maybe Warren or Kennedy if a fire gets lit under their butts can be those guys, since they still have quite a bit of football left in them.

After we picked Crowder, a run of defensive ends came off the board, and I'm certainly glad we chose him at #56 over those who followed. . .

#57 - Abiamiri
#58 - Alma-Francis
#62 - Bazuin
#65 - Moses
#83 - Johnson
#97 - McDonald

In my final mock I had Crowder/Abiamiri as interchangeable. We got sound value with our selection on Crowder. He'll be a solid contributor for a long time.

[Requiem]

I agree with Kaylore, lets all relax. This is all conjecture. It's not two hand touch football. The only reason this is being picked apart is because of the 24/7/365 media coverage of football nowadays.

Although this isn't the down and dirty camp action, it's nice to actually hear that Tim is playing with some intensity, or is acting intense. As Mediator had stated throughout the process of the draft, through Indianapolis and Mobile - that Crowder lacked that mental edge. I think it's a good sign, even if it's just "easy camp" that Crowder is showing intensity.

That was his biggest knock, leaving things on the field and not mastering the mental aspect of the game. Hopefully he can, and if he does - there is no reason that he shouldn't improve.

It makes a lot more sense to be excited about a kid with real talent, instead of say, feel good Corey Jackson types, who got the **** talked up about them before camp and ended up sucking the big one.

Crowder will be a good player, and I don't think anyone ever question he's the most ready. If he improves upon the critiques that he has (which Mediator has talked about in depth) he could be a very good player.

[stoxman]

I'm just glad we got Crowder. He's a versatile guy, and he'll be a nice compliment to Jarvis Moss - we have our ends of the future on the right and left sides set, and we have a specialist in Elvis Dumervil - and a hopeful anchor on the inside in Marcus Thomas, the only other spot that's missing - is the other defensive tackle, but maybe Warren or Kennedy if a fire gets lit under their butts can be those guys, since they still have quite a bit of football left in them.

After we picked Crowder, a run of defensive ends came off the board, and I'm certainly glad we chose him at #56 over those who followed. . .

#57 - Abiamiri
#58 - Alma-Francis
#62 - Bazuin
#65 - Moses
#83 - Johnson
#97 - McDonald

In my final mock I had Crowder/Abiamiri as interchangeable. We got sound value with our selection on Crowder. He'll be a solid contributor for a long time.


Keep an eye on Alama Francis...I would have gone him over Crowder but hard to argue either way--we needed the upgrade at this spot and I think we got it.

[Kaylore]

Keep an eye on Alama Francis...I would have gone him over Crowder but hard to argue either way--we needed the upgrade at this spot and I think we got it.

I'm with you. He's going to be a beast. And props to cmhargrove. I really see Ekuban and Crowder as almost the same player.

[Paladin]

Outstanding!

[OrangeShadow]

that hixon crap is getting old

[skpac1001]

For those who like Crowder, was there any particular games he played up to his potential in? I watched a couple of Texas games this week and I was pretty underwhelmed. Granted, I have no skills as a scout (I thought we should move up for Branch...) but I still expected a little more impact against college olines.

[Requiem]

I'm with you. He's going to be a beast. And props to cmhargrove. I really see Ekuban and Crowder as almost the same player.

Francis on upside maybe, but Crowder was and is the better player right now. Far more NFL ready.

Ekuban now with the Broncos, or Ekuban back when he sucked with the Cowboys? If Crowder played like Ekuban did for 10 years like Ekuban played this year for the Broncos, then that's a pretty good deal. I think he'll be much more like Ekuban's former college teammate, Greg Ellis. Just my opinion. :)

You still didn't answer my question though, maybe I missed - a little exhausted from gardening and a two-mile bike ride.

[Taco John]

that hixon crap is getting old



WESLEY DUUUUUUKE!

[Sassy]

Francis on upside maybe, but Crowder was and is the better player right now. Far more NFL ready.

Ekuban now with the Broncos, or Ekuban back when he sucked with the Cowboys? If Crowder played like Ekuban did for 10 years like Ekuban played this year for the Broncos, then that's a pretty good deal. I think he'll be much more like Ekuban's former college teammate, Greg Ellis. Just my opinion. :)

You still didn't answer my question though, maybe I missed - a little exhausted from gardening and a two-mile bike ride.

You obviously aren't in Fargo! LOL!
You wouldn't be gardening or biking today!

[Requiem]

You obviously aren't in Fargo! LOL!
You wouldn't be gardening or biking today!

Haha, I heard it's pouring up there. No Sassy, I'm back in South Dakota. I poured today. The ground was moist, so I thought I'd get some of the weeds and trees out of some of my grandma's rose bushes, etc. and then I went on a nice bike ride.

I heard the news. Congratulations to you both. Bless you!

[Sassy]

Haha, I heard it's pouring up there. No Sassy, I'm back in South Dakota. I poured today. The ground was moist, so I thought I'd get some of the weeds and trees out of some of my grandma's rose bushes, etc. and then I went on a nice bike ride.

I heard the news. Congratulations to you both. Bless you!

It has been pouring!
I'd love to get in a bike ride here...dang.

Anyway...yeah about that. There is no news...
You'd best go reread that thread.

[fdf]

. . . we have our ends of the future on the right and left sides set, and we have a specialist in Elvis Dumervil

Moss will have trouble getting playing time over Dumervil. They are both pass-rush specialists. But Dumervil has lots of college experience and has one pretty darn good pro-year under his belt (esp considering the collapse at DT last year after Warren's injury). It is Dumervil that Moss has to beat out for playing time as they are both young specialists of the same type. And I think we got a good one in Dumervil.

For at least the next two years, my prediction is that, absent injury, Dumervil will see the field more than Moss. I'd be happy to eat my words because, if Moss sees the field more than ED this year, it means Moss is a good one.

[Requiem]

I'd have to find that thread again, LOL. Sorry. I'll be up in Fargo in August though, hopefully it's not flooded away. PEACE.

[Kaylore]

You still didn't answer my question though, maybe I missed - a little exhausted from gardening and a two-mile bike ride.
Did you mean this?

Maybe on your "quck" comment, are you saying he isn't quick coming off the ball? He has had trouble judging snap counts in college, but overall I guess I disagree with you.
I didn't understand what you were asking. I'm going to assume you meant my "quick" comment. He is not a fast player and is more strong and than quick and fast. Sort of the anti-Jarvis Moss.

[RkyMtnThunder]

I am not surprised. I think Crowder has been overshadowed by the other D-linemen we drafted this year. He shows up with almost no pressure or press, all he has to do is hold his own to be seen in a favorable light....whereas if Moss or Thomas get blown up on a play or sack the QB - will get more spotlight than it probably deserves

[Requiem]

Moss will have trouble getting playing time over Dumervil. They are both pass-rush specialists. But Dumervil has lots of college experience and has one pretty darn good pro-year under his belt (esp considering the collapse at DT last year after Warren's injury). It is Dumervil that Moss has to beat out for playing time as they are both young specialists of the same type. And I think we got a good one in Dumervil.

For at least the next two years, my prediction is that, absent injury, Dumervil will see the field more than Moss. I'd be happy to eat my words because, if Moss sees the field more than ED this year, it means Moss is a good one.

I'm saying for the future, not exactly now. I think it'll take Moss a year of development, but after - he'll be a good one. I'm not sure how many ends we're going to keep on the team, probably five.

Crowder, Moss, Dumervil, Ekuban and Lang - my guesses for now.

[TheReverend]

lol, I remember you guys hyping him up so much when he first came here.
I think he was "Hixon" before Darius Watts.
No more retreads!

Under Bates Luther would've had another pro-bowl in him.

Under Coyer he had a garbage year like every DL we've had since they switched to a zone base cover.

[Dedhed]

I don't think it was any secret that Crowder was the most polished DL we took. Moss has a huge ceiling, but is very short on experience, and Thomas is going to take a little while to shake off the rust from sitting out half a season.

BTW, this Moss and conditioning stuff is being completely blown out of proportion. As far as I can tell this paranoia stems from his comment about having to "tap out" during the first day of drills, and people took that to mean that he had to sit out the second half of practice or something. In reality he probably sat out a rep to catch his breath, which is about as common as sand on a beach where rookies are concerned.

[Broncos_OTM]

I'm on record as not being a big Crowder fan. This is mostly because he doesn't fit our defense and he isn't very quick. I will say that he is themost physically ready to go of any of our picks and so that will help him get more playing time faster. It is only mini-camp and when the pads come on, things change.

Kaylore Moss and crowders numbers were almost the same from the combine. except moss was not as strong

[Kaylore]

Kaylore Moss and crowders numbers were almost the same from the combine. except moss was not as strong

Moss has big arms. Let me tell you as someone who has a big frame that hurts your bench numbers and isn't necessarily a good way to tell how strong you are. Moss has the bigger upside but is more raw. Crowder doesn't have as much upside but is more ready now and his bust potential is lower.

[Drek]

Did you mean this?

I didn't understand what you were asking. I'm going to assume you meant my "quick" comment. He is not a fast player and is more strong and than quick and fast. Sort of the anti-Jarvis Moss.
Combine and Campus results for each.

Drill / Moss / Crowder
40 / 4.7 / 4.69
20 / 2.68 / 2.71
20s / 4.41(c) / 4.32
10 / 1.59, 1.52(c) / 1.59
3c / 7.21(c) / 7.28
brd / 10'0" / 9'3"
vert / 30.5" / 30.5"
bench / 16 / 32
Wt. / 250 / 272
Ht. / 6'7" / 6'4"

20s is 20 yard shuttle, 3c is 3 cone drill, brd is broad jump, vert is vertical jump. (c) denotes a campus workout, not combine.

I'm not saying Crowder is equal to Moss athletically. Moss' athleticism is undersold by his combine numbers while Crowder is somewhat the opposite. But to say that Crowder isn't quick is just wrong. He's got all the athleticism and teams with with good size and strength. His problem is in his technique. He bull rushes all day long because in college he could get away with it. He's got some pretty solid ball skills and recognizes plays well, he just needs to learn there's more to beating OLs than hitting them as fast and as hard as you can. When he does that he'll be a very good every down DE, especially in Bates' system with Johnson coaching him.

I'd personally say his upper bound would be a career like Patrick Kerney's or Justin Smith's, depending on the line around him. He's got the comparable size, strength, and athleticism. Given the right coaching, which it looks like we have, he could be a special player who'll make a lot of tackles and annually give you a good number of sacks. The team around him would then decide if its a Justin Smith style 7-9 sacks a year, or if it'd be like Kerney, those seasons sprinkled with a double digit year that'll really make him stand out.

His lower bound is someone like Ekuban or Jarvis Green. He'll become a solid every down type who isn't impressive and kicks around the league (Ekuban) or if he never develops pass rushing technique he'll put on a few pounds and make a living as a 3-4 DE (a la Green).

Of course he could always flame out, or he could become the next Strahan, but I think that gives a pretty reasonable range. He should become at the least a solid player to have, if he can develop correctly he could be an absolute steal from a deep DE class and be a cornerstone to a very good DL for years to come.

[Requiem]

Combine and Campus results for each.

Drill / Moss / Crowder
40 / 4.7 / 4.69
20 / 2.68 / 2.71
20s / 4.41(c) / 4.32
10 / 1.59, 1.52(c) / 1.59
3c / 7.21(c) / 7.28
brd / 10'0" / 9'3"
vert / 30.5" / 30.5"
bench / 16 / 32
Wt. / 250 / 272
Ht. / 6'7" / 6'4"

20s is 20 yard shuttle, 3c is 3 cone drill, brd is broad jump, vert is vertical jump. (c) denotes a campus workout, not combine.

I'm not saying Crowder is equal to Moss athletically. Moss' athleticism is undersold by his combine numbers while Crowder is somewhat the opposite. But to say that Crowder isn't quick is just wrong. He's got all the athleticism and teams with with good size and strength. His problem is in his technique. He bull rushes all day long because in college he could get away with it. He's got some pretty solid ball skills and recognizes plays well, he just needs to learn there's more to beating OLs than hitting them as fast and as hard as you can. When he does that he'll be a very good every down DE, especially in Bates' system with Johnson coaching him.

I'd personally say his upper bound would be a career like Patrick Kerney's or Justin Smith's, depending on the line around him. He's got the comparable size, strength, and athleticism. Given the right coaching, which it looks like we have, he could be a special player who'll make a lot of tackles and annually give you a good number of sacks. The team around him would then decide if its a Justin Smith style 7-9 sacks a year, or if it'd be like Kerney, those seasons sprinkled with a double digit year that'll really make him stand out.

His lower bound is someone like Ekuban or Jarvis Green. He'll become a solid every down type who isn't impressive and kicks around the league (Ekuban) or if he never develops pass rushing technique he'll put on a few pounds and make a living as a 3-4 DE (a la Green).

Of course he could always flame out, or he could become the next Strahan, but I think that gives a pretty reasonable range. He should become at the least a solid player to have, if he can develop correctly he could be an absolute steal from a deep DE class and be a cornerstone to a very good DL for years to come.

I was just about to do the combine numbers/pro-day workout comparisons, but you did it for me. Solid work.

I agree, outside the mental aspect of Crowder, snap anticipation (I'd say it's mental) the other knock is he doesn't use too many moves. I don't know if he hasn't developed a wide array of moves or if it's he's just using what comes easiest, but I agree with what you said - and some of the comparisons are interesting. I thought that Ellis (partly due to versatility, more due to style of play and position) was the best comparison, but Smith is pretty solid.

I'm so glad we got Crowder over a guy like Kerney, hell - I'm glad we got all three of these guys for less than Kerney's contract. A lot of people thought DE was a concern, primarily a pass rushing RDE, but I was more than thrilled when we selected Crowder as a LDE, due to the players we have there, and with Courtney Brown being a miss.

It's nice to hear these things about Crowder though. I think the criticisms he has been given (by say, Mediator) are well justified, but I feel that he'll prove a lot of peopple wrong. I don't think he'll ever be dominant, but I think he can be a good defensive lineman, (Greg Ellis mold) for a long time.

I don't think we'll see any of these youngsters fail. Being with Bates and Johnson has to be a DREAM scenario for any lineman. Both guys have a history for being able to have their defensive lines perform well, and as motivators from what's being said - second to none. Likeable guys too.

We'll see how things roll along with the pads on. Team Crowder. ^5

[Broncos_OTM]

Moss has big arms. Let me tell you as someone who has a big frame that hurts your bench numbers and isn't necessarily a good way to tell how strong you are. Moss has the bigger upside but is more raw. Crowder doesn't have as much upside but is more ready now and his bust potential is lower.Hay Kaylore. Dumervil is short with arms of a guy that if i remember correctly is 6'3 or 6'4 and did 30!! reps

[Requiem]

Where Kaylore's absolutely right that the longer arms you have, the harder it is to do bench presses, it's not a good enough excuse for Jarvis putting up a measly, what 15-16 reps?

Jarvis with his staff infection, really wasn't healthy up until this past year at a consistent level. I'm sure he hasn't spent a whole lot of time with a strength and conditioning coach, and I doubt he spent a whole lot of time at Florida in the weight room. He needs to get stronger. Jarvis has the frame to pack on more weight, but he doesn't have to - but I still think he'd be more effective if he did. He's 6'6 - 250 or so, 6'6 - 260 is a realistic goal to be at, and I believe that would make a world of difference.

[BroncoBuff]

This Crowder news doesn't bode well for either Lang or Ekuban.

Even if you already count Veal and Engleberger as cuts - the D-Line is still very crowded.

[BroncoBuff]

Moss has big arms. Let me tell you as someone who has a big frame that hurts your bench numbers and isn't necessarily a good way to tell how strong you are. Moss has the bigger upside but is more raw. Crowder doesn't have as much upside but is more ready now and his bust potential is lower.

I agree with all of the red ... and the rest, too, if by "big" you meant "long."

[maven]

What I find funny about the knock on Moss was his size. The guy was fully ripped and big on draft day.

He doesn't need to get bigger. He just needs to develop his skills.

[bcbronc]

This Crowder news doesn't bode well for either Lang or Ekuban.

Even if you already count Veal and Engleberger as cuts - the D-Line is still very crowded.

hard to see cutting lang or ekuban though and depending on 2 rooks and a 2nd year specialist to fill out the ranks on end. I just don't see how we don't keep 5 ends this season, barring Moss getting hid on IR.

and then there's the log jam at DT. I can't freakin wait to see what our dline looks like to open the season. :strong:

[chrisp]

I got the feeling that they went for two different types of players for opposite ends of the d-line. Moss is clearly the speed-rusher type, but Crowder looks a little bit more like a run-stuffing DE lie Courtney Brown was (but hopefully a healthy one....). He won't be expected to get gaudy sack numbers if he can help the line stay solid against the run.

[Kaylore]

Good post Drek. It sounds like we see the same things but you are expecting more out of him than I am. Moss plays faster than Crowder does with the pads on. That's a good example of how the combine can be misleading.

From what I hear from coaches, and Med can back me up on this, the biggest gripe from coaches on young defensive linemen is a lack of moves. Usually you're lucky for a young guy to have one that he has down pretty good. This is because most collegiate players have leaned on their athelticism most of their lives and not needed to develop their other skills.

I'm not upset about Crowder or think that he's a bust. He has a good work ethic and is developed enough to play immediately. I just see him as more of a role-player than a difference maker.



I don't think we'll see any of these youngsters fail. Being with Bates and Johnson has to be a DREAM scenario for any lineman. Both guys have a history for being able to have their defensive lines perform well, and as motivators from what's being said - second to none. Likeable guys too.

We'll see how things roll along with the pads on. Team Crowder. ^5

That would be amazing if every one of our picks worked out. I'll settle for hoping two of them do. I agree that letting them develop under Bates and Johnson will be huge for them. One thing Shanahan has done much better in recent years is find the guys he wants and goes and gets them at any cost. It would also appear that the guys he's wanted recently are pretty good players or at least not busts.

Hay Kaylore. Dumervil is short with arms of a guy that if i remember correctly is 6'3 or 6'4 and did 30!! reps
I think Dumervil might surprise some people this year. He's kind of gotten lost in the shuffle of things, but his 8.5 sacks are not to be ignored.

[Arkansas Bronco]

For all that forgot all last years reports Dummer has most moves down perfectly it is just his body size that let him slip. I dont know much on Crowder but I hope your (Kaylore) dislike for him doesnt make you judge him to critically.

[Kaylore]

For all that forgot all last years reports Dummer has most moves down perfectly it is just his body size that let him slip. I dont know much on Crowder but I hope your (Kaylore) dislike for him doesnt make you judge him to critically.

First, I never said I disliked him. I just didn't think he fit our system very well. And I try not let my own opinion of players cloud my view. As a human being, that's not technically possible, but I do my best. I usually cite my extreme dislike of BVP as an example. While I'm not a fan, I had to admit that he was the best backup of the '05 preseason.

[Arkansas Bronco]

Sorry for taking your earlier post wrong and BVP isnt a QB im not sure what he was and it is very sad that he was the best #2 we had.

[cmhargrove]

It's going to be a fun training camp. This yyear we are already debating who we like best (out of many choices). Hopefully the coaching and conditioning come through and any of these rookies contribute this year.

For the record, the thing I want to see most from Moss this year (because I expect at least 5 sacks) is a blocked kick. Moss has enormous skills at kick blocking, and I would love nothing more than to see him block a kick from someone like Kaeding to beat the Chargers in the closing seconds of the fourth quarter. Am I just dreaming???

[Kaylore]

Sorry for taking your earlier post wrong and BVP isnt a QB im not sure what he was and it is very sad that he was the best #2 we had.

No it's not because he was alright for us when he played. I was just reflecting on how some players will play pretty good for a season or two and then start sucking. I was watching the '97 AFC Championship game last night and Yancey Thigpen was a beast that year. He really was a good player but was only able to be really productive for three years of so. Some guys have their time to shine but it's only for a short while.

[Mediator12]

The thing with Crowder that is being missed, is he lacks an explosive first step for a one gap DE. With lining up that wide, the DE's will one gap and need to get the OT to commit to the outside and be able to take either the inside or outside. Despite his combine numbers, Crowder never had the ability to take the outside from just average OT's in Mobile or on game tape. So, while he is a workout speed guy, his on field speed is a whole different story.

That being said, I really hope he develops a pure first step for DEN. He seems to have the physical talent to be a good to great DE. The technique he developed at TEX was real poor, despite all the experience of being a four year Starter. I consider him still fairly raw at this point, with all the tools to become better.

All I know is that DEN has added at least two upgrades at pass rush from last year to go with Dumervil. That makes me happy. They also brought the beef in to play a two gap DT scheme. That makes me happy. Bates got the tools he needed to play his scheme this offseason. That is a heck of a lot more than Coyer got in Four years in one offseason.

[Requiem]

Kaylore, I don't think we'd of drafted him if the coaches didn't feel he "fit" into our plans.

[Requiem]

The thing with Crowder that is being missed, is he lacks an explosive first step for a one gap DE. With lining up that wide, the DE's will one gap and need to get the OT to commit to the outside and be able to take either the inside or outside. Despite his combine numbers, Crowder never had the ability to take the outside from just average OT's in Mobile or on game tape. So, while he is a workout speed guy, his on field speed is a whole different story.

That being said, I really hope he develops a pure first step for DEN. He seems to have the physical talent to be a good to great DE. The technique he developed at TEX was real poor, despite all the experience of being a four year Starter. I consider him still fairly raw at this point, with all the tools to become better.

All I know is that DEN has added at least two upgrades at pass rush from last year to go with Dumervil. That makes me happy. They also brought the beef in to play a two gap DT scheme. That makes me happy. Bates got the tools he needed to play his scheme this offseason. That is a heck of a lot more than Coyer got in Four years in one offseason.

I think his initial first step isn't as explosive because he has trouble judging the snap. Would you believe that's part of it?

[Kaylore]

Kaylore, I don't think we'd of drafted him if the coaches didn't feel he "fit" into our plans.

Well the coaches and FO get paid and I don't, but Med just confirmed what my concerns about him are. We'll see, I guess.

[Mediator12]

I think his initial first step isn't as explosive because he has trouble judging the snap. Would you believe that's part of it?

What I know is that he did not display a consistent first step in four years from tape and Mobile. What I also know is that having an explosive first step is mostly innate, but can be improved enough to make him adequate. He also needs to develop more feel for the protections and work to disengage quicker.

Overall, he was not my favorite selection at 56, but he still Improves the pass rush from last year and will be more than adequate in one gap run defending right away. This is a good Staff for teaching technique from what I have heard, but how much will Johnson and Bates be able to change the players tendencies that Jacob Burney has brought the last two years with him right there still on staff? I am still more than displeased that Burney was retained amid the general defensive overhaul.

[Inkana7]

I thought I read somewhere that Bill Johnson is really good at teching technique.

[HorseHead]

I think when all is said and done, we are going to have a real good d-line..with a chance to be something special in a year or two. Maybe even this year...

Lets see what "Big Money"(Warren) can do with two healthy toes....

[Broncos_OTM]

I think Dumervil might surprise some people this year. He's kind of gotten lost in the shuffle of things, but his 8.5 sacks are not to be ignored.

If the line can eat more of the double teams on the inside Dumervil could become a star. any of the rookies looking for playing time will have to beat out dumervil this year. and at this point i would put him as the leader for playing in the situational pass rush faze.

Crowder will IMO fight for playing time with Lang. and it will be Ekuban and Dumervil at the other position. with moss getting time to work on his Strength and conditioning.

[Atlas]

If the line can eat more of the double teams on the inside Dumervil could become a star. any of the rookies looking for playing time will have to beat out dumervil this year. and at this point i would put him as the leader for playing in the situational pass rush faze.

Crowder will IMO fight for playing time with Lang. and it will be Ekuban and Dumervil at the other position. with moss getting time to work on his Strength and conditioning.

Lang is no slouch either and he fits Bates defense perfectly. If the DTs play great look for Ecuban to lose his starting spot to Lang and Dumerville and Moss could rotate on the other side.

[Broncos_OTM]

Mediator, what were your top choices at end and DT this past year. just out of curiousity

[Broncos_OTM]

Lang is no slouch either and he fits Bates defense perfectly. If the DTs play great look for Ecuban to lose his starting spot to Lang and Dumerville and Moss could rotate on the other side.
I aggree EE is not ideal for the system but he did put up what 7 sacjs kast year mainly playing 1 and 2nd down. our right side last year got 15 sacks. which was what almost half the production.

[Drek]

Good post Drek. It sounds like we see the same things but you are expecting more out of him than I am. Moss plays faster than Crowder does with the pads on. That's a good example of how the combine can be misleading.

From what I hear from coaches, and Med can back me up on this, the biggest gripe from coaches on young defensive linemen is a lack of moves. Usually you're lucky for a young guy to have one that he has down pretty good. This is because most collegiate players have leaned on their athelticism most of their lives and not needed to develop their other skills.

I'm not upset about Crowder or think that he's a bust. He has a good work ethic and is developed enough to play immediately. I just see him as more of a role-player than a difference maker.

Depends what you'd classify as a role player or difference maker.

Its very unlikely that Crowder will become a 10-15 sack stud DE, but that doesn't mean he can't be a difference maker. I've been saying for several years now that the problem with our DL isn't the lack of talent as a whole, its the lack of every down players. Teams slaughter us with the hurry up because our defense was so busy trying to hide the deficiencies of one dimensional players with substituting role players for other role players.

Crowder doesn't have a great first step and he needs to work on his pass rushing techniques real bad, but despite that he's still a physical freak with some good on field skills. If he turns into an every down LDE who can stuff the run and take advantage of pressure created by his teammates to add on a half dozen or so sacks a year thats pretty valuable, and I'd consider that more than just a role player.

I'd personally say thats a fairly low expectation for him and he could easily surpass it. Even if he doesn't though he fills a huge need on this team, both short and long term.