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Inkana7
06-09-2007, 06:39 PM
Your a homer and just don't want to admit it if you don't think SD has a good chance this year. Same team with more experience, will have roid boy for the whole season. Their only weakness I see are the WR's and they aren't that bad. I think Denver needs to go 12-4 to have a chance at the AFC. As far as the first place schedule argument it is dumb because they play the same schedule except for 2 teams.

Was my take homeristic? Yes, I bet it was. But it wasn't blind. I know the Chargers are still AFC favorites, but seasons like last year don't come along often.

My take was homeristic, but if 400 wants to say that San Diego will "have no problem" with Denver, I think you need to point the homer finger at him.

theAPAOps5
06-09-2007, 07:40 PM
No teams fan base should claim their team is going to have no problem with another Division Rival. Stressing Division and Rival. Its like a college rivalry where no matter what kind of year a team is having they show up against their rivals. That was very homeristic of 400hz.

Jens1893
06-09-2007, 08:07 PM
No teams fan base should claim their team is going to have no problem with another Division Rival. Stressing Division and Rival. Its like a college rivalry where no matter what kind of year a team is having they show up against their rivals. That was very homeristic of 400hz.

He is extremely arrogant in general. I seriously have no clue why this thread is now a Broncos/Chargers thread.

cutthemdown
06-09-2007, 08:10 PM
I said it's all up to Norv, meaning it's virtually the same team, just a different coach. I don't know how this is implying that he's a good head coach.

I specifically noted that Norv was a coordinator in Dallas, not a head coach. We all know this.

You can argue this many ways. What did Jimmy Johnson ever do outside of those two great years in Dallas?

I'm not thrilled about Norv Turner being the head coach but IMO he's been in two bad situations before as head coach. I'm gonna give him a fair chance to see what he can do in a much better situation here in San Diego.

Actually the Chargers always choke in the big games. The also are rarely good 2-3 yrs in a row. If anything Chargers need a coach that can get them over the hump. Norv Turner has been around and recycled enough for everyone to know that he isn't the guy. If anything Chargers just grabbed someone who would let AJ SMITH boss him around and just be happy to have another shot at HC. I doubt very seriously if Norv Turner is the coach that gets SD over the top finally. I wouldn't be surprised if he is one and done in SD and they go after a bigger fish next offseason. And comparing Turner to other coaches that took over really good teams isn't really accurate because Chargers have never won anything. It's not like they were superbowl champs, they got ran out of playoffs even sooner then Broncos did 2 years ago. Remember we actually beat Pats on the scoreboard something Chargers failed to do.

ward63
06-09-2007, 08:11 PM
Everytime I read or think about that, I get pissed off.

Man, am I glad the Raiders aren't competitive. Otherwise, we'd have 4 fan bases claiming superiority in June.

McKinley's cap numbers are relatively low this year and next year.

(Jae)
06-09-2007, 08:20 PM
He is extremely arrogant in general. I seriously have no clue why this thread is now a Broncos/Chargers thread.

exactly...............why the hell are we discussing the damn Chargers?

Drek
06-09-2007, 08:35 PM
A 6th for a top 15 pick from only 4 years ago? Not bad. Kennedy hasn't even been that bad the past two years, surprised STL wanted to dump him so badly.

Kennedy isn't the answer to anything, but he doesn't have to be. He fits the planet theory to a 'T'. If he rededicates himself to the game we'll have a steal on our hands, otherwise he's a solid run stuffing backup who can get some penetration from time to time.

In the past few days we've gone from a DL rotation of Warren and Thomas starting with McKinley, Veal, and Burton backing up. Now we have Warren and Adams starting, Thomas and Kennedy backing up, and McKinley in a DE/DT hybrid role where he can back up across the line where he should be.

I don't care who you are if you can't see that as a significant upgrade, especially to a team in need of two gap type DTs, then you just don't know football. I was real worried about our line falling apart simply due to lack of depth and size along the interior this year. We couldn't afford an injury to Thomas or Warren lest a 290 pounder in McKinley and/or Veal sees significant time. Now we go four deep with big gap stuffers.

DivineLegion
06-09-2007, 08:50 PM
Tatum Bell & George Foster left Denver in a trade so if they do anything we could get at least a 6th round comp pick to make up for this trade...no doubt

Jens1893
06-09-2007, 09:03 PM
Tatum Bell & George Foster left Denver in a trade so if they do anything we could get at least a 6th round comp pick to make up for this trade...no doubt

you can only get comp picks for unrestricted free agents.

400HZ
06-09-2007, 09:13 PM
Hmm. If you flip flop qb and wr, and then replace Denver with N.E., it proves that you had a very lopsided talent advantage during your playoff game. Maybe coaching counts for something. Why dont you line up the Head coach, defensive coaching staff, offensive coaching staff, special teams coaching staff for broncos and chargers comparision and see if that closes the gap?

The Pats had a huge advantage in the playoff experience department and I think that's what really did the Chargers in.

boltaneer
06-09-2007, 09:19 PM
Actually the Chargers always choke in the big games. The also are rarely good 2-3 yrs in a row. If anything Chargers need a coach that can get them over the hump. Norv Turner has been around and recycled enough for everyone to know that he isn't the guy. If anything Chargers just grabbed someone who would let AJ SMITH boss him around and just be happy to have another shot at HC. I doubt very seriously if Norv Turner is the coach that gets SD over the top finally. I wouldn't be surprised if he is one and done in SD and they go after a bigger fish next offseason. And comparing Turner to other coaches that took over really good teams isn't really accurate because Chargers have never won anything. It's not like they were superbowl champs, they got ran out of playoffs even sooner then Broncos did 2 years ago. Remember we actually beat Pats on the scoreboard something Chargers failed to do.

Nice try. Butwhat a team did a decade ago really has no relevance in what happens this year.

Remember, the Chiefs and Raiders won a Super Bowl once upon a time. The Broncos last won it nearly a decade ago. It doesn't mean jack today and it doesn't mean anything in relevance to this upcoming season.

Like I said, not many fans are excited about hiring Norv but what can you do? Maybe he'll be the same old Norv. Maybe he'll be another story like Belichick.

cutthemdown
06-09-2007, 09:29 PM
Nice try. Butwhat a team did a decade ago really has no relevance in what happens this year.

Remember, the Chiefs and Raiders won a Super Bowl once upon a time. The Broncos last won it nearly a decade ago. It doesn't mean jack today and it doesn't mean anything in relevance to this upcoming season.

Like I said, not many fans are excited about hiring Norv but what can you do? Maybe he'll be the same old Norv. Maybe he'll be another story like Belichick.

Nice try but Chargers just choked last year again so it's not exactly ancient history. What Broncos did in Superbowl years isn't an indicator of this next season though I agree with that. But my point was that Shannahan has proven himself a coach that can get it done in the big games. My point is that Chargers even though they were the better team still found a way to choke that playoff game away. It's another sign the team really needs a coach that will make Chargers believe this is our year. If you think Norv Turner has them feeling like that then you are crazy. Nice try though. The whole you never know he may be next Bellicheck thing sounds as pathetic as Oakland fans trying to say that Art Shell was going to turn things around.

cutthemdown
06-09-2007, 09:31 PM
Tatum Bell & George Foster left Denver in a trade so if they do anything we could get at least a 6th round comp pick to make up for this trade...no doubt

Broncos wont be getting any comp picks next yr I can say that for sure. For one the only Bronco FA that left were Meyers and Carlisle. Since they signed Graham, Henry, Holland, Smith, Stokley, Adams and a few I missed it's a no brainer that Broncos wont get a thing.

NW Bolt Fan
06-09-2007, 09:36 PM
Nice try but Chargers just choked last year again so it's not exactly ancient history. What Broncos did in Superbowl years isn't an indicator of this next season though I agree with that. But my point was that Shannahan has proven himself a coach that can get it done in the big games. My point is that Chargers even though they were the better team still found a way to choke that playoff game away. It's another sign the team really needs a coach that will make Chargers believe this is our year. If you think Norv Turner has them feeling like that then you are crazy. Nice try though. The whole you never know he may be next Bellicheck thing sounds as pathetic as Oakland fans trying to say that Art Shell was going to turn things around.
Norv is 1-1 in the playoffs. Marty was 5-13. IF we make the playoffs, we'll see what happens this time around. Bolts did choke last year. As for Shanny, you could also say Shanny has proven he can't win a playoff game without Elway.

SpringStein
06-09-2007, 09:38 PM
As for Shanny, you could also say Shanny has proven he can't win a playoff game without Elway.


Or you could say that he EVEN won one with Jake. ;)

Inkana7
06-09-2007, 09:54 PM
The Pats had a huge advantage in the playoff experience department and I think that's what really did the Chargers in.

What's the difference between catching a pass in the regular season and catching a pass in the playoffs?

cutthemdown
06-09-2007, 09:55 PM
Norv is 1-1 in the playoffs. Marty was 5-13. IF we make the playoffs, we'll see what happens this time around. Bolts did choke last year. As for Shanny, you could also say Shanny has proven he can't win a playoff game without Elway.

You can spin it anyway you want it but Shanny has won a playoff game without Elway. I'll tell you something else Broncos are going to rip SD a new one this year. Broncos have gotten much stronger and SD really didn't do much other then jettison the whole coaching staff. Not just a coach here and there we are talking the whole shabang. Good luck with that.

mhgaffney
06-09-2007, 10:04 PM
If Footsteps from #27 would turn his impressive analytical talents from football to solving the problems of the world -- his name would very quickly evolve to one we've all heard...

Footsteps from heaven

NW Bolt Fan
06-09-2007, 10:16 PM
See, this is the difference between being a fan of a perrenial contender vs. a team that catches lightning in a bottle once every 15 years or so with a surprise draft, a player like LT who comes along, etc...you don't understand what continuity is from a winners perspective, which means you really don't understand how a cosistent winner functions. You think we should be concerned about these issues hurting our team chemistry because YOU would be concerned, since that's how the CHARGERS would be effected, which you think of as normative for any other team.
Had some spare time to address your diatribe. You guys were consistent winners when you drafted Elway. Before that... I WILL admit the Donks have stayed very competitive since his retirement, but they haven't won anything since either.

It doesn't work the same way in Denver as it does in SD. On your team there's a power struggle between your coach and GM and the owner's loyalty is divided until he finally sacks the coach. Here there is no such division. Shanny is the unquestioned supreme leader of this team PERIOD. He has total control over who makes this roster and who doesn't. We have a coach for life...you have one till he crosses your GM. That's why we can get a Dale Carter, an IHOP, an Eddie Kennison, a Maurice Clarett...yes, even something as frightning as Dre Bly or Travis Henry...and they either fit in here or they're gone. We b**** and moan (some of us) about character issues here because we want to root for guys we like...but at the end of the day every Bronco fan knows Shanahan is not going to allow any player to be a distraction on this team. And incidently...you might want to worry about Merriman testing positive again as well. Roid boy is surely on Goodells short list of people to keep an eye on.
Actually, Goodelle addressed this issue already by wanting to make sure the no participation in a Pro-bowl wasn't known as the Merriman rule. He addressed this issue because Merriman tested clean every other time. Somewhere around 20 times since his positive test.

1) Rivers is not > than Cutler. Rivers had to sit on the bench for 2 years before he was ready. Obviously it's unfair to judge how good Cutler is going to be at this point since he didn't have the luxury of watching for two full years like Rivers did because he was good enough to play as a rookie and Rivers wasn't. Rivers also didn't have to play on a team like Vanderbilt in college. In terms of athletic ability and arm strength, Cutler is superior. In terms of development...obviously Rivers is ahead FOR NOW. Don't assume that will continue. Rivers had his success last year with a team that has LT and Gates on it. Cutler had his with far fewer weapons than he has now...so there's a considerable difference in what Jay is working with now. Mix in the fact that he has Shanahan coaching him...I'll put my money on Jay.
So which is it, he's not better, or he is? You seem to say both. And BTW, despite some of Norv's shortcomings, coaching QBs is NOT one of them. And Rivers still has LT and Gates.

2) obviously LT is the best...making that assumption about your back up runner and saying he's better than Henry, who has been a consistent runner in this league on bad teams and is now coming to a system that fits him perfectly is just idiotic. Henry will likely be a 1500 yard producer for us. Nobody knows what Turner is as a starter. Tatum Bell looked good backing up Anderson as well. Henry is a good pick-up for your team. BUT, I'd be more concerned if you'd found a way to get Turner. He'll be a top 5 back immediately.

3) Gates is the best...no argument. But the edge has been considerably narrowed, perhaps eliminated entirely with Graham here now. Brandon Manumaleuna? Gimme a freakin' break. That's a homer's take if I've ever heard one. You actually think he's anything more than a blocker? He's your version of House...a big dude who can block and now and then catch a pass. Scheffler has infinitely superior TE skills and is a true downfield threat. Nobody knows for sure yet what he is...he reminds me of Gonzo...but to say that Manu is better than him is flat stupid. It's entirely possible that our combination of Graham and Scheffler will produce a better result than Gates and that guard that backs him up.
But then you give an argument? Again, which is it? Manumaleuna had 3 TDs last year, Graham had 2... I'm willing to bet Gates/Manu have more TDs than Scheffler/Graham.

4) O-line...McNeil and Goff are big talents in your line...though if I were you I would be concerned about the potential for McNeil's back to cause him problems...the other three are overachievers. I'll give you an edge here based ONLY on Nalen and Lepsis being older and Matt's questionable health, but you're forgetting that it's our SYSTEM and how our line works together, not individual talent...that determines our success, hence merely making one to one comparisons is not a good idea. On balance, assuming Lepsis returns to his former self, it's a push here. Your line looks better than it is becuase they're blocking for LT. Ours benefits from the system. But while you have an individual player who makes everyone around him look great...we have a long established history of turning out dominant running games based on a system that never changes. We've successfully mined talent from the back of the draft and even outside the draft for over a decade with this system...can you say the same? You can't. Our main question mark is at RT now...and if Pears has improved this time around, the O-lines are probably roughly equal...you're is slightly more talented and has LT making them look better...ours has a superior system. Either way...I don't see a clear edge here for SD...especially if anything happens to LT. Don't think you have a line so dominant that any back can come in and churn out big time production...that would make you us...and you're not us...you're the team that sucked bad enough to be in position to draft Tomlinson. In 3 years when he hits the wall...what then?
To even bother comparing your O-line to SD's is homeristic. And what makes you think LT hits "the wall" in 3 years. If LT were knocked out, God forbid, Turner would prove to everyone why AJ wouldn't let him go for just a 1st round pick... Why should we worry about McNeil's back when he outplayed every rookie O-lineman last year, and says he's feeling better than ever? Also, how is Dielman an "overachiever"? If anyone has liabliites on the line, it's Goff. He's the one who's aging. Our line is motly young, talented, and like your system in Denver, play very well together.

5) The D-line is obviously our problem...that was last year. How do you know what it will be now? Perhaps I need to remind you that a mere two years ago we were in the AFC title game and finished 2nd against the run in the NFL...less than 1 ypg behind the Chargers in spite of your so called overwhelming talent. That was accomplished with castoffs from the Browns. It might be best to look at whether or not there's a history here with Bates being successful, not what we had last year. We faltered last year...can you assume the guys we've brought in now will fare worse than the 2005 group? No. Do you have an edge? Maybe...individual talent wise...but that fails to consider Shanny has always counted on a rotation in the D-line more than anything else, and we won two Superbowls with that philosophy...you have how many?
So if you were 2nd against the run 2 years ago, what happened last year? I konw this isn't the D-line section, but how can losing Al help your run D? Elway playing D-line sure is pretty.

Your success last year came with an entirely different coaching staff. Would you assume that will continue with an entirely new system, while also assuming that on Denver's side, new players and high draft picks invested won't return Shanny's D to success as it had in 2005? That's a dangerous assumption. The NFL rarely stays the same year to year. Maybe this year you're still better...how about a year from now? Now we're tallking question marks. Given the presense of Bates and his former track record, new players, young talent...Shanahan's history with a rotational system...we have every reason to believe we have improved considerably on the D-line.
No new system. Norv installed the O when he was our coordinator. Cameron was hired specifically because he ran the same offense @ Indiana. Same defensive system too. Cottrell hired specifically because he learned the defense as a coordinator under then head coach, Wade Phillips. Using your logic, how can you assume Bates' previous success will translate to that with an entirely new personnel set? You had every reason to believe your '06 defense would equal your '05 D- but it didn't.

6) Linebackers...first of all, Merriman and Phillips are really DE's not LB's so comparing them here does't really work since they have different roles. It would be easier to compare Sean Phillips with Elvis Dumervil than DJ Williams. I'll give you Merriman as the best at what he does, but let's not pretend that your two inside guys, Stephen Cooper and Matt Whilhelm are anything more than crap because they suck. Cooper is to small for an ILB...and to get 53 tackles from the ILB position...the same number as Jimmy Kennedy BTW...that's just pathetic...especially with that big road grader lining up right in front of him to keep the other team's OL guys off him...and Whilhelm is worse...27 tackles in 16 games? Are you kidding me? Why is this guy a starter? Denver with Wilson had a better LB crew last year, without question. It remains to be seen how DJ does in the middle but you have a gaping hole at both ILB spots.
Puhhhh-lease! First off, Cooper and Wilhelm probably didn't total a bunch of tackles because they weren't STARTERS last year. But that's nice to compare them to Kennedy. HAH. Why exactly aren't Phillips and Merriman LBs? They don't ALWAYS rush... But I can agree that a different system makes straight up comparisons difficult. Actually, Cooper is bigger than Donnie Edwards. You may want to see Cooper and Wilhelm in starting roles before you deem them to "suck."

The only clear advantage you have is at RB and DL...and both those spots have been considerably upgraded this year for Denver. Rivers has questions about his performance in the 4th quarter, and nobody knows whether your defense will perform like it did under Phillips or not. We have clear advantages in the secondary and even at ILB, where I'll take DJ even though he's never played there based on his talent alone over the two nobodies you line up inside. Graham/Scheffler will probably wind up with equal or better production than Gates and that guard you have backing him up. If our O-line gells with the two kids on the right side and Lepsis is OK, I look for our offense to be just as good as SD's this year. LT is the only major advantage, and since we've led the NFL in rushing for the entire Shanahan era, I'm not that worried that we'll be able to run the ball now that we have a legitimate back.
Yet you yourself said Rivers is better "for now". Because we've got "overachievers" on the line and your line "plays as a unit better" that's a wash. Your LBs are better because Merriman and Phillips aren't really LBs. Then there were some, if this, if that, and if that, w'er gonna kick A... Yeah.

Most of all...the biggest advantage that we have is Shanahan vs. Turner...that's just a joke right there. If you think that having your GM known by your players as the guy with the real power on that team won't hurt, I invite you to look at Dallas the last 12 years for exhibit A on how that works...it doesn't. You face a far more serious problem...a systemic one in the front office...than you know. Turner sucks as a HC but he's not your real problem now that the rest of the NFL knows your coach is a puppet. Wait till the players start realizing they can do what they want to and don't have to worry about the coach being the guy who controls their destiny.

Is our coaching situation a problem? That question remains to be seen, and is the ONLY weakness hashed over and oever by you, and the national media. Still, SD will be picked to win the West. Count on it. Will it happen? Will Shanarat's stellar coaching overcome last year's debacle? We'll see.

And your D gave up a bunch of points to the Jake led offense that couldn't seem to score on anybody...see how this game is played? Obviously our front four is MUCH bigger and deeper this time around. That was the reason the D fell apart last year...so your prediction of another collapse is based on last year's talent base...not a good idea. You can talk about Denver collapsing in the second half of a season...because you're team has sucked for so long that their collapse generally started from game one. You have 2 good seasons out of the last 13 years...and you're talking to us? Right...that's like me telling Donald Trump how to handle his money.
What? our collapse started from game 1? WTH are you talking about boy?

You're pretty arrogant for a fan who has followed one of the NFL's worst franchises. You've never won jack and you're telling us there's nothing Shanahan can do against the mighty Norv Turner led Chargers? Where was this talent in 2005? You had a great QB running the show and the same talent and you finsihed where?...right...9-7 like we did last year. Like I said, when you follow a flash in the pan team like the Chargers, you tend to think that once you have success you'll be there indefinitely...think again. Shanny owns Norv Turner and your assumption that "if they do that it won't matter"...ignores the obvious fact that Turner has NOT shown he can do that. So basically, your owner screwed your team when he dumped Marty for Turner just to appease Smith's ego.
Has Shanny ever coached against Norv? Oh, yeah that's right, when Norv coached the Turds he got beat. By everyone. If that's what you want to base him on, then we're DOOMED!

Dude...get over yourself. You have Merriman, Phillips and LT why? Oh right...because YOU SUCKED FOR YEARS AND GOT TO PICK AT THE TOP OF THE DRAFT! Maybe if we flush our team down the crapper for the next 10 years we can find ourselves an LT also. You're also hardly the only team that can pull talent from the back of the draft or find UFA's who can play. Kris Kuper was a 5th rounder...starting this year...Marshall a 4th...starting this year...Lepsis/UFA, Pears/UFA, Dumervil was a 4th...etc...and I guess you've forgotten how many unsung runners we turned into feature backs...TD ring a bell? Rod Smith and Tom Nalen are both HOF caliber players who developed under Shanny...you're point is ridiculous.
Phillips was a 4th rounder. So that's not exactly the top of the draft. The difference LATELY has been that not only have the Bolts drafted well towards the end of the draft, they've also drafted, extremely well in the beginning. Shanny has hit on a few 1st rounders, but overall has done a poor job with 1st and 2nd round picks. The one thing I'll credit Shanarat with is that he does and excellent job of trading out talent (real, OR percieved) and getting something with it. I love the way the guy wheels and deals. Putzier, Tatum, etc.

Wrong...your team was basically the same in 2005 as it is now except for Rivers...and the biggest change is that your coaching change represents a major step down.
So Cutler in his second year starting will improve, but Rivers in his 2nd won't? Bit more homering here. Rivers is great. He too, is still improving.

The biggest difference between our team and yours? A bad year in Denver usually equals a season in San Diego for you clowns to think you're on your way to winning it all. Like I said...WIN SOMETHING.

We got better...you've gotten worse. You just don't know it yet.
Get ready for another "bad" year in Denver. And keep living in the past. Yeah, we got worse. Nice.

-Slap-
06-09-2007, 10:18 PM
The staff let him go with a bunch of rookies on the roster. It's not good that they were so eager to ship him out. There is a chance that the Rams just did this to nab a sixth so they could flip it over for Culpepper which is what Miami is asking for him, but that's just speculation. I guess he really fought with the coaches during a few games last season and he and the staff hate each other. So there are potential character questions.

My thoughts are that he was a guy with high expectations that was asked to play out of position. He reminds me a lot of Warren, actually. If he can come here and do some things right, he'll be solid depth that is young. For a sixth rounder, that's not too shabby and it opens competition up for training camp. That will be fun to watch this year. :) :haw!:

The Culpepper speculation makes sense. I figured Linehan would wind up reunited with the Fat Kid eventually.

See, I really can't compare him to Warren, because Warren has had stretches of outstanding football, even in Cleveland. Kennedy has never done anything in the NFL. Many people expected him to be a bust coming out of school because he's just tremendously headstrong and lazy, which is a deadly combination. Its not like his current reputation developed out of nowhere. Besides that, he plays very, very soft for an interior lineman. He has no desire to be a two gap plugger (which we need), he fancies himself a one gap disruptor (which he isn't).

I would have felt a lot better if that sixth rounder was conditional on him making the team. We've got all these lineman on the roster, I hope we don't feel compelled to keep him over a more coachable and hungrier player just because of the investment in him.

NW Bolt Fan
06-09-2007, 10:19 PM
You can spin it anyway you want it but Shanny has won a playoff game without Elway. I'll tell you something else Broncos are going to rip SD a new one this year. Broncos have gotten much stronger and SD really didn't do much other then jettison the whole coaching staff. Not just a coach here and there we are talking the whole shabang. Good luck with that.
When? Okay then. Denver is going to RIP SD this year. :spit: Bottom line, we had the best talent in the NFL last year, and we've got it again this year. Your homefield advantage is the ONLY reason you MIGHT not get swept this year again.

NW Bolt Fan
06-09-2007, 10:21 PM
The Culpepper speculation makes sense. I figured Linehan would wind up reunited with the Fat Kid eventually.
Could be what they were thinking, but Culpepper's been pretty adamant that he won't be traded because he's not going to re-do his contract. And no way does any team take on that salary with his current condition.

-Slap-
06-09-2007, 10:23 PM
What are you talking about? You guys had Doug Flutie as a starter at one point in time...

I stood up in my end zone seat and called Flutie a goofy little midget and didn't get much more than dirty looks from the spattering of Charger fans in attendance.

-Slap-
06-09-2007, 10:26 PM
Could be what they were thinking, but Culpepper's been pretty adamant that he won't be traded because he's not going to re-do his contract. And no way does any team take on that salary with his current condition.

Well, unless he's sitting on a bunch of guaranteed money in that deal, then that's a pretty empty threat. Posturing like this is common in these things.

-Slap-
06-09-2007, 10:30 PM
People are saying a 6th rounder isn't that much of a big deal because those guys don't pan out anyway. True.

But you are forgetting that 6th rounders can sometimes be great ammunition for pulling of trades or for sweetening the trade in some cases. Sometimes a trade might be in the works and throwing in a 6th rounder or a 6th in exchange for a 7th just tips it over and completes the deal. Hence, it's important to have as many middle/late round picks because of their potential to be used as sweeteners in a bigger trade.

Thank you. The staff has shown an inclination to want to move up and down the board on Draft Day and squandering the commodities that make that possible is stupid.

NW Bolt Fan
06-09-2007, 10:32 PM
Well, unless he's sitting on a bunch of guaranteed money in that deal, then that's a pretty empty threat. Posturing like this is common in these things.
Only reason I don't see it as an empty threat is because this way he forces his release (or the phins could always pay that huge salary), and he controls who he goes to at that point. Guy has to know he's not gonna start this year so he'll probably wanna go somewhere where he's got a future...

-Slap-
06-09-2007, 10:35 PM
That's how many first round picks on the D line?

Correct me if I'm wrong:

Laing, Ekuban, Adams, Warren and now Kennedy

Not even counting our rookie Moss

talk about being loaded. It just gets better.

Al Davis began to obsessively collect former first round picks, Heisman Trophy winners and Super Bowl MVPs. That was an early indication his once twisted, but brilliant mind had turned to mush.

400HZ
06-09-2007, 10:37 PM
See, this is the difference between being a fan of a perrenial contender vs. a team that catches lightning in a bottle once every 15 years or so with a surprise draft, a player like LT who comes along, etc...you don't understand what continuity is from a winners perspective, which means you really don't understand how a cosistent winner functions. You think we should be concerned about these issues hurting our team chemistry because YOU would be concerned, since that's how the CHARGERS would be effected, which you think of as normative for any other team.

I acknowledge up and down that Denver hasn't had troubles with chemistry in the past. Still you have to admit that roster turnover has been greater this year than most in recent memory and it could potentially present a problem.


It doesn't work the same way in Denver as it does in SD. On your team there's a power struggle between your coach and GM and the owner's loyalty is divided until he finally sacks the coach. Here there is no such division. Shanny is the unquestioned supreme leader of this team PERIOD. He has total control over who makes this roster and who doesn't. We have a coach for life...you have one till he crosses your GM. That's why we can get a Dale Carter, an IHOP, an Eddie Kennison, a Maurice Clarett...yes, even something as frightning as Dre Bly or Travis Henry...and they either fit in here or they're gone. We b**** and moan (some of us) about character issues here because we want to root for guys we like...but at the end of the day every Bronco fan knows Shanahan is not going to allow any player to be a distraction on this team. And incidently...you might want to worry about Merriman testing positive again as well. Roid boy is surely on Goodells short list of people to keep an eye on.


There was a power struggle between the coach and GM and that has ended.


1) Rivers is not > than Cutler. Rivers had to sit on the bench for 2 years before he was ready. Obviously it's unfair to judge how good Cutler is going to be at this point since he didn't have the luxury of watching for two full years like Rivers did because he was good enough to play as a rookie and Rivers wasn't. Rivers also didn't have to play on a team like Vanderbilt in college. In terms of athletic ability and arm strength, Cutler is superior. In terms of development...obviously Rivers is ahead FOR NOW. Don't assume that will continue. Rivers had his success last year with a team that has LT and Gates on it. Cutler had his with far fewer weapons than he has now...so there's a considerable difference in what Jay is working with now. Mix in the fact that he has Shanahan coaching him...I'll put my money on Jay.

So NC State is superior to Vanderbilt? I disagree. Don't act like Cutler didn't have weapons last year. Javon Walker produced more than Gates did, and there was a stretch when Rivers was without his number 1, 2, and 4 receivers AT THE SAME TIME. Cutler has superior athleticism and arm strength? I'm not argueing. Unfortunately for Denver that isn't what makes a great quarterback. If it was then Jeff George would still be in the league. Rivers has the advantage of a couple years on the sidelines, yes. Last year was also his first year starting and neither him nor Cutler have come close to their potential yet. Last year Rivers was better in the time he played vs Cutler in the time he played and that's all that we can really base things on right now.


2) obviously LT is the best...making that assumption about your back up runner and saying he's better than Henry, who has been a consistent runner in this league on bad teams and is now coming to a system that fits him perfectly is just idiotic. Henry will likely be a 1500 yard producer for us. Nobody knows what Turner is as a starter. Tatum Bell looked good backing up Anderson as well.

I'm basing the Turner > Henry thing on the fact that Henry's former team cut him and then tried to trade a high round draft pick for Turner. The Tennessee Titans as an organization are in a better position to judge talent than you or I.


3) Gates is the best...no argument. But the edge has been considerably narrowed, perhaps eliminated entirely with Graham here now. Brandon Manumaleuna? Gimme a freakin' break. That's a homer's take if I've ever heard one. You actually think he's anything more than a blocker? He's your version of House...a big dude who can block and now and then catch a pass. Scheffler has infinitely superior TE skills and is a true downfield threat. Nobody knows for sure yet what he is...he reminds me of Gonzo...but to say that Manu is better than him is flat stupid. It's entirely possible that our combination of Graham and Scheffler will produce a better result than Gates and that guard that backs him up.

Your take is based on Daniel Graham doing something he hasn't done in his past NFL career. People here tend to think that coming to the Broncos makes everybody a better player but that's wishful thinking. In addition to that, if Scheffler doesn't progress then Denver's TE tandem isn't going to even touch SD's.


4) O-line...McNeil and Goff are big talents in your line...though if I were you I would be concerned about the potential for McNeil's back to cause him problems...the other three are overachievers. I'll give you an edge here based ONLY on Nalen and Lepsis being older and Matt's questionable health, but you're forgetting that it's our SYSTEM and how our line works together, not individual talent...that determines our success, hence merely making one to one comparisons is not a good idea. On balance, assuming Lepsis returns to his former self, it's a push here. Your line looks better than it is becuase they're blocking for LT. Ours benefits from the system. But while you have an individual player who makes everyone around him look great...we have a long established history of turning out dominant running games based on a system that never changes. We've successfully mined talent from the back of the draft and even outside the draft for over a decade with this system...can you say the same? You can't. Our main question mark is at RT now...and if Pears has improved this time around, the O-lines are probably roughly equal...you're is slightly more talented and has LT making them look better...ours has a superior system. Either way...I don't see a clear edge here for SD...especially if anything happens to LT. Don't think you have a line so dominant that any back can come in and churn out big time production...that would make you us...and you're not us...you're the team that sucked bad enough to be in position to draft Tomlinson. In 3 years when he hits the wall...what then?

Basing our offensive line's success on LT is a worthless arguement because Michael Turner averaged over 6 ypc (on nearly 100 carries.) The Chargers also gave up very few sacks with a quarterback who isn't very mobile at all. Goff isn't one of our best linemen btw, he's a distant 4th or 5th behind McNeil, Dielman and Hardwick. You can hang your hat on Denver's productive running system, but what if Shanahan wants to progress beyond zone blocking and bootlegs? Can undersized linemen adequetly protect Cutler in a division with Shawne Merriman, Jared Allen, Derrick Burgess, Shaun Phillips, etc, etc? What about red zone efficiency? A big powerful O line like SD was able to dominate in the red zone last year while Denver's small finess O line didn't do nearly as good. Throw in the fact that Denver's two best linemen are old and likely past their prime while SD's best linemen are in their low-mid twenties. The Chargers definetely have a superior offensive line. Analysts consistantly ranked it among the top units in the league this year.


5) The D-line is obviously our problem...that was last year. How do you know what it will be now? Perhaps I need to remind you that a mere two years ago we were in the AFC title game and finished 2nd against the run in the NFL...less than 1 ypg behind the Chargers in spite of your so called overwhelming talent. That was accomplished with castoffs from the Browns. It might be best to look at whether or not there's a history here with Bates being successful, not what we had last year. We faltered last year...can you assume the guys we've brought in now will fare worse than the 2005 group? No. Do you have an edge? Maybe...individual talent wise...but that fails to consider Shanny has always counted on a rotation in the D-line more than anything else, and we won two Superbowls with that philosophy...you have how many?

Coyer had a lot of success with a less talented group of players. Unfortunately for Denver it wasn't enough to stand up to high powered offenses like Indy or 06 SD. I'm assuming Bates has a different philosophy on how he wants things done. After watching Denver's D fall apart last year and then lose one of it's best players in Wilson I think it's fair to say that there are some big question marks here.


Your success last year came with an entirely different coaching staff. Would you assume that will continue with an entirely new system, while also assuming that on Denver's side, new players and high draft picks invested won't return Shanny's D to success as it had in 2005? That's a dangerous assumption. The NFL rarely stays the same year to year. Maybe this year you're still better...how about a year from now? Now we're tallking question marks. Given the presense of Bates and his former track record, new players, young talent...Shanahan's history with a rotational system...we have every reason to believe we have improved considerably on the D-line.

Like I said SD needs to take care of it's own business to stay on top. You're talking about a few years from now? The Charger's D as a whole is like 2 years younger on average than Denver's. Players like Merriman, Castillo, Olshanksy, Phillips, Cromartie, and others haven't reached their potential yet. How many starters on defense does Denver have with upside? Williams? Two years down the road the talent gap on defense will likely be even larger.


6) Linebackers...first of all, Merriman and Phillips are really DE's not LB's so comparing them here does't really work since they have different roles. It would be easier to compare Sean Phillips with Elvis Dumervil than DJ Williams. I'll give you Merriman as the best at what he does, but let's not pretend that your two inside guys, Stephen Cooper and Matt Whilhelm are anything more than crap because they suck. Cooper is to small for an ILB...and to get 53 tackles from the ILB position...the same number as Jimmy Kennedy BTW...that's just pathetic...especially with that big road grader lining up right in front of him to keep the other team's OL guys off him...and Whilhelm is worse...27 tackles in 16 games? Are you kidding me? Why is this guy a starter? Denver with Wilson had a better LB crew last year, without question. It remains to be seen how DJ does in the middle but you have a gaping hole at both ILB spots.

Fine it's not an even comparison. I guess Merriman and Phillips are way better than your D ends instead of your OLBs. And how are Cooper and Wilhem crap? They haven't even started yet. Cooper got 53 tackles as a backup! He also had 2.5 sacks, 2 passes defensed, and 1 forced fumble. Those are better stats than DJ Williams managed to post as a fulltime starter. Tackles are a lame measure of talent anyways. Why should somebody get props for making a tackle 6 yards downfield? Comparing SD's ILB's to Denvers LB core is tough right now because Wilhelm and Cooper are new to starters rolls while Denver's group is also undergoing changes.


The only clear advantage you have is at RB and DL...and both those spots have been considerably upgraded this year for Denver. Rivers has questions about his performance in the 4th quarter, and nobody knows whether your defense will perform like it did under Phillips or not. We have clear advantages in the secondary and even at ILB, where I'll take DJ even though he's never played there based on his talent alone over the two nobodies you line up inside. Graham/Scheffler will probably wind up with equal or better production than Gates and that guard you have backing him up. If our O-line gells with the two kids on the right side and Lepsis is OK, I look for our offense to be just as good as SD's this year. LT is the only major advantage, and since we've led the NFL in rushing for the entire Shanahan era, I'm not that worried that we'll be able to run the ball now that we have a legitimate back.

Rivers had the highest 4th quarter qb rating in the nfl last year so I'm not sure what you're talking about there. I already mentioned the TE and LB spots. You're spitefully calling Manumaleuna a guard even though he did the exact same thing that Graham did last year. I guess he'd have to get traded to Denver to qualify as a game breaker. Don't try to compare O lines. Even if 34 year old Lepsis comes off his second major knee surgury better than expected, SD still has more talent up front. If Lepsis doesn't come back 100% then Denver has a suck O line again. You can't blame everything on Foster. Pears got beat by Merriman for 2 sacks and 2 forced fumbles last time we played, and you're counting on Pears to start this year.


Most of all...the biggest advantage that we have is Shanahan vs. Turner...that's just a joke right there. If you think that having your GM known by your players as the guy with the real power on that team won't hurt, I invite you to look at Dallas the last 12 years for exhibit A on how that works...it doesn't. You face a far more serious problem...a systemic one in the front office...than you know. Turner sucks as a HC but he's not your real problem now that the rest of the NFL knows your coach is a puppet. Wait till the players start realizing they can do what they want to and don't have to worry about the coach being the guy who controls their destiny.

The Chargers need to take care of their own business or they will fall off next year.


And your D gave up a bunch of points to the Jake led offense that couldn't seem to score on anybody...see how this game is played? Obviously our front four is MUCH bigger and deeper this time around. That was the reason the D fell apart last year...so your prediction of another collapse is based on last year's talent base...not a good idea. You can talk about Denver collapsing in the second half of a season...because you're team has sucked for so long that their collapse generally started from game one. You have 2 good seasons out of the last 13 years...and you're talking to us? Right...that's like me telling Donald Trump how to handle his money.


A defense that had about 50% 2nd and 3rd string guys gave up a lot of points to a Jake led offense last year before playing great in the second half. Denver performing better up front on defense this year is based on rookies making an immediate impact and/or a group of worthless castoffs playing like they don't suck.


You're pretty arrogant for a fan who has followed one of the NFL's worst franchises. You've never won jack and you're telling us there's nothing Shanahan can do against the mighty Norv Turner led Chargers? Where was this talent in 2005? You had a great QB running the show and the same talent and you finsihed where?...right...9-7 like we did last year. Like I said, when you follow a flash in the pan team like the Chargers, you tend to think that once you have success you'll be there indefinitely...think again. Shanny owns Norv Turner and your assumption that "if they do that it won't matter"...ignores the obvious fact that Turner has NOT shown he can do that. So basically, your owner screwed your team when he dumped Marty for Turner just to appease Smith's ego.

As a Charger fan I've been through a lot of ups and downs. I've definetely seen how bad team and roster management can tank a franchise. In fact I'd be willing to bet that I know a lot more about sinking a franchise than you do. I'm not proud of that or anything, but Charger fans definetely have experience with it.


Dude...get over yourself. You have Merriman, Phillips and LT why? Oh right...because YOU SUCKED FOR YEARS AND GOT TO PICK AT THE TOP OF THE DRAFT! Maybe if we flush our team down the crapper for the next 10 years we can find ourselves an LT also. You're also hardly the only team that can pull talent from the back of the draft or find UFA's who can play. Kris Kuper was a 5th rounder...starting this year...Marshall a 4th...starting this year...Lepsis/UFA, Pears/UFA, Dumervil was a 4th...etc...and I guess you've forgotten how many unsung runners we turned into feature backs...TD ring a bell? Rod Smith and Tom Nalen are both HOF caliber players who developed under Shanny...you're point is ridiculous.

You're point is equally as ridiculous. Gates and Dielman were UDFA. Jamal Williams was a 6th round supplemental draft pick. We didn't get Phillips because AJ was drafting high..he was a 4th round pick! So was Hardwick. Shane Olivea was a 7th rounder. Marcus McNeil was a 2nd round pick who should have been top 5 overall. SD got Merriman because AJ fleeced the Giants, just like Denver routinely fleeces the Skins. I could go on here.


Wrong...your team was basically the same in 2005 as it is now except for Rivers...and the biggest change is that your coaching change represents a major step down.


The change from 2005 to 2006 was young players continuing their development and taking their game to the next level. This is going to continue in 2007.


The biggest difference between our team and yours? A bad year in Denver usually equals a season in San Diego for you clowns to think you're on your way to winning it all. Like I said...WIN SOMETHING.

We got better...you've gotten worse. You just don't know it yet.

You think we've gotten worse and you've gotten better. We'll find out for sure September. In the meantime let's keep argueing! :thumbsup:

-Slap-
06-09-2007, 10:38 PM
Only reason I don't see it as an empty threat is because this way he forces his release (or the phins could always pay that huge salary), and he controls who he goes to at that point. Guy has to know he's not gonna start this year so he'll probably wanna go somewhere where he's got a future...

This type of posturing is common in these things. Hell, we just saw the Snake slithering out the back door because he wanted everything on his terms. At least he was a credible NFL player, not a big fat bust like Kennedy.

Atlas
06-09-2007, 10:40 PM
I find it rather funny that Sandy Eggo fans think that since they have replaced Shotty they are bound for the promised land. He was the scapegoat for the playoff loss to the Pats last year and should bear some of the blame, but the same BRAINIACS are playing for the Chokers that made stupid mistake after stupid mistake and cost them the game. An old addage, "You can't fix stoopid."
Even LT lost it at the end. He should have not been pissed at the celebrants. Rather at the mental gymnastic of his brilliant team mates.
They replaced Marty but they LOST their d and O coordinators. Of course they did get Norv so it's all good.

Maximus
06-09-2007, 10:41 PM
Denver is not the Redskins. Denver isn't the Raiders either. Denver is good.

The Lakers tried it with the dream team squad... No Championship... The Redskins Tried it... No championship... The Yankees tried it... No Championship... Denver is trying it and it won't work... Keep bringing them in!

400HZ
06-09-2007, 10:41 PM
I think a split is likely as well, though if one team is going to win both of them it's the Broncos. Look at the Broncos track record in SD. I can still remember when TD referred to SD has his "other home field". I'd be pretty concerned about Merriman. That guy thinks he's bigger than the team and is consumed with promoting himself and his lights out theme. The best thing that could happen for the Chargers is for Merriman to grow up about 5 years in the next 2-3 months. When he's 29 or 30 years old and realizes that he's getting closer to the end of his career and doesn't have a ring... he'll become a better teammate and make the team better.

I get that impression watching games somtimes too, but Shawne Merriman's teammates all hold him in very high regard as a person and a player. I met Shawne and he was a very nice guy. That Lights Out **** that annoys people gets his team fired up so I'm fine with it.

azbroncfan
06-09-2007, 10:42 PM
The Pats had a huge advantage in the playoff experience department and I think that's what really did the Chargers in.

How about fumbling the ball or even knocking it down so it would be incomplete. Or how about running LT more in the second half.

Atlas
06-09-2007, 10:44 PM
Norv is 1-1 in the playoffs. Marty was 5-13. IF we make the playoffs, we'll see what happens this time around. Bolts did choke last year. As for Shanny, you could also say Shanny has proven he can't win a playoff game without Elway.

They did win a playoff game. THEY BEAT NEW ENGLAND!!! I guess you can say that Shanny won a playoff game with Plummer as his starting QB.

400HZ
06-09-2007, 10:50 PM
I stood up in my end zone seat and called Flutie a goofy little midget and didn't get much more than dirty looks from the spattering of Charger fans.

Unfortunately that would have been an air-tight statement at the time. :-[

Atlas
06-09-2007, 10:52 PM
The Lakers tried it with the dream team squad... No Championship... The Redskins Tried it... No championship... The Yankees tried it... No Championship... Denver is trying it and it won't work... Keep bringing them in!
Denver isn't trying to put a "Dream Team " together. They have two high priced FA's Graham and Henry. All the other ones are role players.

Denver has done this before. in '96 and 97 Denver brought in McCaffery, Romo, Griffith, A. Williams, N. Smith, Ray Crockett, Cadrez, Tanuvasa, Lodish all to be the back bone of their Super Bowl XXXII and XXXIII runs.

NW Bolt Fan
06-09-2007, 10:56 PM
How about fumbling the ball or even knocking it down so it would be incomplete. Or how about running LT more in the second half. Why stop there? What about catching the ball when you're all alone and the ball is right in your hands? How about holdling onto the ball on punts? How about not head-butting opposing players when you've caused a fumble off a 4th down... And the list goes on...

NW Bolt Fan
06-09-2007, 10:58 PM
They did win a playoff game. THEY BEAT NEW ENGLAND!!! I guess you can say that Shanny won a playoff game with Plummer as his starting QB.I stand corrected- with jealousy. Now, is it the norm, or was it an anomaly?

NW Bolt Fan
06-09-2007, 10:59 PM
I stood up in my end zone seat and called Flutie a goofy little midget and didn't get much more than dirty looks from the spattering of Charger fans in attendance.
And an appropriate response would be?

Atlas
06-09-2007, 10:59 PM
I stand corrected- with jealousy. Now, is it the norm, or was it an anomaly?

They always beat New England. I guess it's the norm.

azbroncfan
06-09-2007, 11:03 PM
Why stop there? What about catching the ball when you're all alone and the ball is right in your hands? How about holdling onto the ball on punts? How about not head-butting opposing players when you've caused a fumble off a 4th down... And the list goes on...

Bottomline is SD had the team beat and choked. It had nothing to do with NE's experience just SD's inablility to close the game out.

NW Bolt Fan
06-09-2007, 11:07 PM
Bottomline is SD had the team beat and choked. It had nothing to do with NE's experience just SD's inablility to close the game out.
I can agree with that. I've re-watched that game a few times. We should have been up 21-3 at halftime, and that's excluding the gift INT Hart dropped on New England's opening series... Bolts definitely choked. In particular, Eric Parker, McCree, and Florence. Marty for that matter did an awful job of head coaching. Going for it on 4th and 10 was idiotic, and burning a timeout on a play that CLEARLY would not be overturned was again, idiotic.

-Slap-
06-09-2007, 11:07 PM
And an appropriate response would be?

"Thank you, Bronco fan. May I have another?"

NW Bolt Fan
06-09-2007, 11:08 PM
They always beat New England. I guess it's the norm.;D Nice. I meant the playoffs, but nice. Do you guys play NE this year?

NW Bolt Fan
06-09-2007, 11:09 PM
"Thank you, Bronco fan. May I have another?"If you were already buyin'- then sweet.

Tombstone RJ
06-09-2007, 11:53 PM
The Lakers tried it with the dream team squad... No Championship... The Redskins Tried it... No championship... The Yankees tried it... No Championship... Denver is trying it and it won't work... Keep bringing them in!

The Lakers won two NBA titles with Shaq and Kobe, the Yankees win alot more than they lose, as for the Skins, that's idiotic, meddling ownership that keeps them down.

As for Denver, bringing in some FA's is not "buying" a championship. The Broncos are already good, they build through the draft as much as any other winning NFL franchise, and the stability in their coaching staff is excellent.

Inkana7
06-09-2007, 11:57 PM
Oh, Charger fans, if I had the time, I'd pick apart those two monsterous posts, but I don't, so I'll wait for footstepsfrom #27's reply.

But basically, NW Bolt Fan's contradict itself, and 400's reeks of ignorant arrogance.

Atlas
06-10-2007, 12:26 AM
;D Nice. I meant the playoffs, but nice. Do you guys play NE this year?

I'm sure the Broncos will play them in the AFC Championship.

cutthemdown
06-10-2007, 12:31 AM
I'm sure the Broncos will play them in the AFC Championship.

so says the seer so shall it be................

footstepsfrom#27
06-10-2007, 12:33 AM
Had some spare time to address your diatribe. You guys were consistent winners when you drafted Elway. Before that... I WILL admit the Donks have stayed very competitive since his retirement, but they haven't won anything since either.
It's been 44 years since you won a title...longer than the Chiefs.
Denver Post Elway (1999-2006): 76-52, .593 winning %, 5 playoff games
San Diego since 1999: 61-67, 47.6% winning %, 2 playoff games
So which is it, he's not better, or he is? You seem to say both. And BTW, despite some of Norv's shortcomings, coaching QBs is NOT one of them. And Rivers still has LT and Gates.
Clearly Cutler is on a faster track than Rivers. Saying Rivers is ahead at this point, with 3 years in the NFL is not saying he's better. I expect Cutler to pass him up.
Henry is a good pick-up for your team. BUT, I'd be more concerned if you'd found a way to get Turner. He'll be a top 5 back immediately.
As I said...Tatum Bell was a good backcup too.
But then you give an argument? Again, which is it? Manumaleuna had 3 TDs last year, Graham had 2... I'm willing to bet Gates/Manu have more TDs than Scheffler/Graham.
Manumaleuna has 62 starts and 80 catches...big deal. He's a blocker...nothing more.
To even bother comparing your O-line to SD's is homeristic.
Really? Then why do we lead the NFL in rushing for the last 12 years? With Foster gone, that alone will give us a push. You're line looks better than it is because of LT. Tomlinson has averaged 4.5 ypc in SD...Reuben Droughns did that here...can you imagine what kind of numbers LT would put up in Denver? It would be obscene.
And what makes you think LT hits "the wall" in 3 years. If LT were knocked out, God forbid, Turner would prove to everyone why AJ wouldn't let him go for just a 1st round pick... Why should we worry about McNeil's back when he outplayed every rookie O-lineman last year, and says he's feeling better than ever?
LT will be 31 in three years...the point where RB's start to lose it. Turner is speculation at this point since he's never carried the load, but it is safe to say he's no Tomlinson. McNeil's diagnois of spinal stenosis raises cause for concern.
So if you were 2nd against the run 2 years ago, what happened last year? I konw this isn't the D-line section, but how can losing Al help your run D? Elway playing D-line sure is pretty.
Brown was lost to injury and Warren played hurt all year. It should be obvious the current D-line is much better equipped to play the run than the one we fielded last year.
Using your logic, how can you assume Bates' previous success will translate to that with an entirely new personnel set? You had every reason to believe your '06 defense would equal your '05 D- but it didn't.
Actually we didn't. See above. Bates system has now been given the pieces of the puzzle he wanted. Obviously all these D-line moves are to give him the personell that match his system. That's a bit different than replacing the head coach and both coordinators.
First off, Cooper and Wilhelm probably didn't total a bunch of tackles because they weren't STARTERS last year. But that's nice to compare them to Kennedy. HAH. Why exactly aren't Phillips and Merriman LBs? They don't ALWAYS rush... But I can agree that a different system makes straight up comparisons difficult. Actually, Cooper is bigger than Donnie Edwards. You may want to see Cooper and Wilhelm in starting roles before you deem them to "suck."
Both are listed as starters NOW...and neither is going to make anyone forget Edwards. I didn't say Phillips and Merrimian aren't LB's...I said a comparison is difficult since their roles are different. They're more like rush ends.
Is our coaching situation a problem? That question remains to be seen, and is the ONLY weakness hashed over and oever by you, and the national media. Still, SD will be picked to win the West. Count on it. Will it happen? Will Shanarat's stellar coaching overcome last year's debacle? We'll see.
Shanny coached them to a 9-7 record with Plummer....13-3 the year before. How do you think Turner would have fared? 9-7 BTW...is usually what the call "a successful season" in San Diego. You've got good personell...you also have instability in your FO...and that is a much bigger problem than any shortages of talent that can be rectified.
Has Shanny ever coached against Norv? Oh, yeah that's right, when Norv coached the Turds he got beat. By everyone. If that's what you want to base him on, then we're DOOMED!
The rest of the NFL knows Turner is nothing but a Cowboys retread.
Phillips was a 4th rounder. So that's not exactly the top of the draft. The difference LATELY has been that not only have the Bolts drafted well towards the end of the draft, they've also drafted, extremely well in the beginning. Shanny has hit on a few 1st rounders, but overall has done a poor job with 1st and 2nd round picks. The one thing I'll credit Shanarat with is that he does and excellent job of trading out talent (real, OR percieved) and getting something with it. I love the way the guy wheels and deals. Putzier, Tatum, etc.
It's always easier to find gems when you finish 1-15 isnt' it?
So Cutler in his second year starting will improve, but Rivers in his 2nd won't? Bit more homering here. Rivers is great. He too, is still improving.
I didnt' say he wouldn't improve. I simply rejected your notion that Rivers is better. Cutler has more talent IMO.
Get ready for another "bad" year in Denver. And keep living in the past. Yeah, we got worse. Nice.
You have two "good" years in the last 13...a bad year in Denver is generally a good one in SD...yet you're in here bragging on a board to fans of a team with 6 conference titles and 2 Lombardis to your zero.

Xenos
06-10-2007, 01:02 AM
How about fumbling the ball or even knocking it down so it would be incomplete. Or how about running LT more in the second half.

Bingo!!!! That's the right answer there.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-10-2007, 01:04 AM
Cutler scares me a hell of a lot more than Rivers.

NW Bolt Fan
06-10-2007, 01:11 AM
It's been 44 years since you won a title...longer than the Chiefs.
Denver Post Elway (1999-2006): 76-52, .593 winning %, 5 playoff games
San Diego since 1999: 61-67, 47.6% winning %, 2 playoff games

Clearly Cutler is on a faster track than Rivers. Saying Rivers is ahead at this point, with 3 years in the NFL is not saying he's better. I expect Cutler to pass him up.

As I said...Tatum Bell was a good backcup too.

Manumaleuna has 62 starts and 80 catches...big deal. He's a blocker...nothing more.

Really? Then why do we lead the NFL in rushing for the last 12 years? With Foster gone, that alone will give us a push. You're line looks better than it is because of LT. Tomlinson has averaged 4.5 ypc in SD...Reuben Droughns did that here...can you imagine what kind of numbers LT would put up in Denver? It would be obscene.

LT will be 31 in three years...the point where RB's start to lose it. Turner is speculation at this point since he's never carried the load, but it is safe to say he's no Tomlinson. McNeil's diagnois of spinal stenosis raises cause for concern.

Brown was lost to injury and Warren played hurt all year. It should be obvious the current D-line is much better equipped to play the run than the one we fielded last year.

Actually we didn't. See above. Bates system has now been given the pieces of the puzzle he wanted. Obviously all these D-line moves are to give him the personell that match his system. That's a bit different than replacing the head coach and both coordinators.

Both are listed as starters NOW...and neither is going to make anyone forget Edwards. I didn't say Phillips and Merrimian aren't LB's...I said a comparison is difficult since their roles are different. They're more like rush ends.

Shanny coached them to a 9-7 record with Plummer....13-3 the year before. How do you think Turner would have fared? 9-7 BTW...is usually what the call "a successful season" in San Diego. You've got good personell...you also have instability in your FO...and that is a much bigger problem than any shortages of talent that can be rectified.

The rest of the NFL knows Turner is nothing but a Cowboys retread.

It's always easier to find gems when you finish 1-15 isnt' it?

I didnt' say he wouldn't improve. I simply rejected your notion that Rivers is better. Cutler has more talent IMO.

You have two "good" years in the last 13...a bad year in Denver is generally a good one in SD...yet you're in here bragging on a board to fans of a team with 6 conference titles and 2 Lombardis to your zero.
Keep living in the past. You'll always be able to hold onto it. Our winning percentage was .875 last year... It'll be funny to bring this thread up when Turner the re-tread is racking up W after W. Meanwhile, we'll see if Cutler indeed IS the better QB.

NW Bolt Fan
06-10-2007, 01:12 AM
Cutler scares me a hell of a lot more than Rivers.Well, that endorsement bodes well for the Bolts. Thanks.

Atlas
06-10-2007, 01:13 AM
Keep living in the past. You'll always be able to hold onto it. Our winning percentage was .875 last year.

San Diego's winning percentage in the playoffs was 000%

Inkana7
06-10-2007, 01:16 AM
Keep living in the past. You'll always be able to hold onto it. Our winning percentage was .875 last year... It'll be funny to bring this thread up when Turner the re-tread is racking up W after W. Meanwhile, we'll see if Cutler indeed IS the better QB.

Irony much?

Tell me, who did you root for this time last year? Were you a Niners fan? Or maybe Seattle?

NW Bolt Fan
06-10-2007, 01:18 AM
Irony much?

Tell me, who did you root for this time last year? Were you a Niners fan? Or maybe Seattle?
HEY, you were slick enough to get the irony there... Yeah, I was a Niner fan when I signed on to this board in '03 dipsh*t. BRILLIANT.

Lemme guess, you became a donk fan when Elway WON his first SB...

NW Bolt Fan
06-10-2007, 01:19 AM
San Diego's winning percentage in the playoffs was 000%Yeah, just like the Donks.

DeuceOfClub
06-10-2007, 01:20 AM
Since the 2003 Raiders, no team has gone faster from contender to garbage like this year Chargers!
Norm Turner? Was Art Shell available? What about Steve Spurrier?

The only title you might be competing for this year is the only title you ever won: “2005 best team not to make the playoff”

400HZ
06-10-2007, 01:20 AM
Footsteps I don't think anyone is trying to argue that San Diego had a superior team 5-10 years ago. Any arguements I make here are for the 07 season, unless you really want to argue about who was better in 06, 05, 04, ...

Clearly Cutler is on a faster track than Rivers. Saying Rivers is ahead at this point, with 3 years in the NFL is not saying he's better. I expect Cutler to pass him up.
Expectations are all you have at this point.

As I said...Tatum Bell was a good backcup too.
Maybe, but teams weren't lining up lucrative trade offers for Tatum after 2 years.

Manumaleuna has 62 starts and 80 catches...big deal. He's a blocker...nothing more.
He's a blocking tight end. Fortunately AJ was smart enough not to throw a $30 million contract at him.

Really? Then why do we lead the NFL in rushing for the last 12 years? With Foster gone, that alone will give us a push. You're line looks better than it is because of LT. Tomlinson has averaged 4.5 ypc in SD...Reuben Droughns did that here...can you imagine what kind of numbers LT would put up in Denver? It would be obscene.
Who cares about Denver's line 12 years ago? We're talking 2007 here and past performance does not always indictate future success. You know damn well that your line is screwed if Lepsis can't make a full recovery, and I've seen posts you've made saying that same thing. Marcus McNeil might have spinal stenosis, but how much did that limit his playing time last year? In college? Stenosis is a condition that can be completely controlled as long as it's looked after.

Brown was lost to injury and Warren played hurt all year. It should be obvious the current D-line is much better equipped to play the run than the one we fielded last year.

The current line meaning Sam Adams, Jimmy Kennedy, Ekuban, and Lang? Sorry but that is completely nonfrightening. I'd wait to see how your draft picks pan out before trying to pimp that lineup.

Both are listed as starters NOW...and neither is going to make anyone forget Edwards. I didn't say Phillips and Merrimian aren't LB's...I said a comparison is difficult since their roles are different. They're more like rush ends.
They are listed as starters now but you were throwing out stats from last year when they were backups.

Shanny coached them to a 9-7 record with Plummer....13-3 the year before. How do you think Turner would have fared? 9-7 BTW...is usually what the call "a successful season" in San Diego. You've got good personell...you also have instability in your FO...and that is a much bigger problem than any shortages of talent that can be rectified.

9-7 would have been a successful season when we had Flutie Flakes and that squad. It would have been an overachieving. Since AJ Smith got promoted and we started getting some quality talent on the team expectations have been raised accordingly. 2005 was an incredibly disappointing year, as was the playoff loss this year.

You have two "good" years in the last 13...a bad year in Denver is generally a good one in SD...yet you're in here bragging on a board to fans of a team with 6 conference titles and 2 Lombardis to your zero.
Is Oakland due for another superbowl too?

NW Bolt Fan
06-10-2007, 01:21 AM
Since the 2003 Raiders, no team has gone faster from contender to garbage like this year Chargers!
Norm Turner? Was Art Shell available? What about Steve Spurrier?

The only title you might be competing for this year is the only title you ever won: “2005 best team not to make the playoff”
Hey, the donks downward spiral was bound to happen sooner or later. Finishing 3rd in the division last year was a bummer, but eventually you'll get used to it.

Xenos
06-10-2007, 01:23 AM
It's been 44 years since you won a title...longer than the Chiefs.
Denver Post Elway (1999-2006): 76-52, .593 winning %, 5 playoff games
San Diego since 1999: 61-67, 47.6% winning %, 2 playoff games

Clearly Cutler is on a faster track than Rivers. Saying Rivers is ahead at this point, with 3 years in the NFL is not saying he's better. I expect Cutler to pass him up.

As I said...Tatum Bell was a good backcup too.

Manumaleuna has 62 starts and 80 catches...big deal. He's a blocker...nothing more.

Really? Then why do we lead the NFL in rushing for the last 12 years? With Foster gone, that alone will give us a push. You're line looks better than it is because of LT. Tomlinson has averaged 4.5 ypc in SD...Reuben Droughns did that here...can you imagine what kind of numbers LT would put up in Denver? It would be obscene.
Having LT certainly helps a lot, but so is having a good line as well. It's only this last season that we finally had a good line for him to run behind ie. like the 2005 Chiefs and Seahawks. Most importantly, we finally could run down an opponent's throat in the fourth quarter with LT even when the opposining team knew that we were running. As a whole, we're not the best in terms of run blocking or pass protection. But we're about balanced in both. There's certainly room for improvement, specifically on the right side with Goff and Olivea, but to say that McNeill is the only good olinemen is absurd. Dielman is a rising star in the OG position. Considering that it was only his second year playing guard, I've say he still has room to be even better.

LT will be 31 in three years...the point where RB's start to lose it. Turner is speculation at this point since he's never carried the load, but it is safe to say he's no Tomlinson. McNeil's diagnois of spinal stenosis raises cause for concern.
McNeill's diagnosis certainly does raise concern, but I trust our medical staff for the most part when it comes to these matters. I believe the only reason he dropped that far was because he injured his back in college, but it was unrelated to his condition. However, as long as he takes care of his body, the problem is pretty minimal. Also LT turning 31 in three years is certainly a concern, but as long as he has a good oline in front of him, he should still be productive. Besides, LT takes real good care of himself and he isn't injury prone like so many other runningbacks are. I suspect that by letting a backup like Turner help with the load, LT's production will actually be much longer than one would normally expect from a RB.

Brown was lost to injury and Warren played hurt all year. It should be obvious the current D-line is much better equipped to play the run than the one we fielded last year.

Actually we didn't. See above. Bates system has now been given the pieces of the puzzle he wanted. Obviously all these D-line moves are to give him the personell that match his system. That's a bit different than replacing the head coach and both coordinators.

Both are listed as starters NOW...and neither is going to make anyone forget Edwards. I didn't say Phillips and Merrimian aren't LB's...I said a comparison is difficult since their roles are different. They're more like rush ends.
Edwards was a great coverage safety and helped a lot against the pass. But he wasn't a very good ILB in the 3-4 system. He couldn't shed blocks and he was absolutely horrible against the run.

Shanny coached them to a 9-7 record with Plummer....13-3 the year before. How do you think Turner would have fared? 9-7 BTW...is usually what the call "a successful season" in San Diego. You've got good personell...you also have instability in your FO...and that is a much bigger problem than any shortages of talent that can be rectified.

The rest of the NFL knows Turner is nothing but a Cowboys retread.

It's always easier to find gems when you finish 1-15 isnt' it?

I didnt' say he wouldn't improve. I simply rejected your notion that Rivers is better. Cutler has more talent IMO.

You have two "good" years in the last 13...a bad year in Denver is generally a good one in SD...yet you're in here bragging on a board to fans of a team with 6 conference titles and 2 Lombardis to your zero.
They both have a lot of upside. Both also played on lousy teams in college in a tough divisions, and both had to carry their respective teams on their backs.

Inkana7
06-10-2007, 01:24 AM
HEY, you were slick enough to get the irony there... Yeah, I was a Niner fan when I signed on to this board in '03 dipsh*t. BRILLIANT.

Lemme guess, you became a donk fan when Elway WON his first SB...
Yes, Sir. I am also slick enough to understand that you just admitted you're living in the past.

Sir, I was 5 at the time, so technically, yes, I did become a bronco fan when Elway won his first SB.

And judging by your last three posts, I think someone's a bit frustrated. Drink some warm milk and hit the sack, kiddo. You've had a rough day.

EDIT: You musta posted another PMSy post while I was typing.

azbroncfan
06-10-2007, 01:24 AM
Keep living in the past. You'll always be able to hold onto it. Our winning percentage was .875 last year... It'll be funny to bring this thread up when Turner the re-tread is racking up W after W. Meanwhile, we'll see if Cutler indeed IS the better QB.


And what did that get you? A bigger dissappointment at the end of the season?

NW Bolt Fan
06-10-2007, 01:30 AM
Yes, Sir. I am also slick enough to understand that you just admitted you're living in the past.

Sir, I was 5 at the time, so technically, yes, I did become a bronco fan when Elway won his first SB.

And judging by your last three posts, I think someone's a bit frustrated. Drink some warm milk and hit the sack, kiddo. You've had a rough day.

EDIT: You musta posted another PMSy post while I was typing.
Okay, I was wrong. You're NOT smart enough to detect the irony. Ummm, yeah, put in the .875 to make a point. Apparently you didn't get it. It's okay, you weren't the only one. As another poster after you so eloquently put it, it got us nothing. Just like footsteps pointing out your GREAT winning percentage since Elway. What did it get you?

Exactly. Classic.

DeuceOfClub
06-10-2007, 01:37 AM
The Chargers are sheep.

Inkana7
06-10-2007, 01:37 AM
Okay, I was wrong. You're NOT smart enough to detect the irony. Ummm, yeah, put in the .875 to make a point. Apparently you didn't get it. It's okay, you weren't the only one. As another poster after you so eloquently put it, it got us nothing. Just like footsteps pointing out your GREAT winning percentage since Elway. What did it get you?

Exactly. Classic.

Sir, I think it is you who failed to detect the irony. Go back and read your post. Then again, maybe you just can't read very well. Really, neither would surprise me. I'm not going to go back and explain, because frankly, it'd be a waste of time.

That great winning percentage since Elway got us proof that we have a coach that can consistantly win whether we have a First Ballot HoFer at QB or Brian Griese. It's called winning consistently. Maybe once Spanos realizes that he needs to side with a winning coach instead of Smith, and coaches like Norv aren't in SD, you'll know what it's like.

Lightning in a bottle.

cutthemdown
06-10-2007, 01:38 AM
Hey, the donks downward spiral was bound to happen sooner or later. Finishing 3rd in the division last year was a bummer, but eventually you'll get used to it.

We all know you don't really think that. Charger fans are just enjoying their one year on top, but everyone knows it won't last because the Dolts always choke and now they have no coaching.

Atlas
06-10-2007, 01:42 AM
The Chargers are sheep.

remember 2 years ago when there wasn't any chargers coming here? I miss Faider fan.

NW Bolt Fan
06-10-2007, 01:46 AM
Sir, I think it is you who failed to detect the irony. Go back and read your post. Then again, maybe you just can't read very well. Really, neither would surprise me. I'm not going to go back and explain, because frankly, it'd be a waste of time.

That great winning percentage since Elway got us proof that we have a coach that can consistantly win whether we have a First Ballot HoFer at QB or Brian Griese. It's called winning consistently. Maybe once Spanos realizes that he needs to side with a winning coach instead of Smith, and coaches like Norv aren't in SD, you'll know what it's like.

Lightning in a bottle.
Win what? You ain't won shiat since Elway departed. What then do you say if can't-coach Norv sweeps your donks? What then? Just promise me you'll still be on the board.

NW Bolt Fan
06-10-2007, 01:49 AM
remember 2 years ago when there wasn't any chargers coming here? I miss Faider fan. I was here before you, or Deuce. And I remember a thread last year about how the Chargers weren't even considered rivals, blah, blah, blah... :wave:

Inkana7
06-10-2007, 01:51 AM
Win what? You ain't won shiat since Elway departed. What then do you say if can't-coach Norv sweeps your donks? What then? Just promise me you'll still be on the board.

I won't have to say anything, sir. Because he won't. I guarentee it.

400HZ
06-10-2007, 02:00 AM
You're acting like we just dumped Vince Lombardi. It was Marty Shottenheimer - the biggest postseason failure the NFL has ever seen! What exactly would be the point in keeping him? Especially after the real coaches Cam and Wade got hired away?

Inkana7
06-10-2007, 02:02 AM
You're acting like we just dumped Vince Lombardi. It was Marty Shottenheimer - the biggest postseason failure the NFL has ever seen! What exactly would be the point in keeping him? Especially after the real coaches Cam and Wade got hired away?

58 - 82.

At least Marty won in the regular season and GOT in the playoffs.

NW Bolt Fan
06-10-2007, 02:05 AM
58 - 82.

At least Marty won in the regular season and GOT in the playoffs. He'll be above .500 in two years.

Inkana7
06-10-2007, 02:07 AM
He'll be above .500 in two years.

I'll be suprised if he's still a head coach in two years.

NW Bolt Fan
06-10-2007, 02:08 AM
I'll be suprised if he's still a head coach in two years.
Stick to watching the NBA.

Xenos
06-10-2007, 02:09 AM
Alright you two, let's just call a truce since this topic has been derailed enough as it is.

Kennedy may or may not contribute to this team. He was absolutely hated by the fans in St.Louis, so he's got a lot to prove. The biggest concern is that he seems to be a lazy player. If he doesn't make the team then you guys only lose a 6th rounder. Of course, the downside to that is that maybe the 6th rounder could have been used to move up in the draft or maybe draft someone better (the latter is probably not that likely).

thumpc
06-10-2007, 02:11 AM
Contract years are excellent motivatiors.

BroncoBuff
06-10-2007, 02:11 AM
Denver has done this before. in '96 and 97 Denver brought in McCaffery, Romo, Griffith, A. Williams, N. Smith, Ray Crockett, Cadrez, Tanuvasa, Lodish all to be the back bone of their Super Bowl XXXII and XXXIII runs.

Right .... I mentioned that in a pre-draft thread. The parallels are there ... I guess we'll see if the results follow.


And footsteps, I'm with you 99% of the way, but you're barking up the wrong tree trying to minimize Rivers. The guy is an absolute warrior - an absolute winner. He was one of the 3 or 4 best QBs in the league in his first year as a starter. Remember, basically his only NFL snaps ever before '06 were in that '05 finale when Lynch separated Brees' shoulder. Now I'm a huge Cutler guy of course, but I'll be surprised if Jay manages '06 Rivers numbers in this, his first season as a starter. And you're going a bit too far crediting much of Rivers' success to LT. He had next-to-nothing at WR sometimes, and yet he played his best football in the 4th quarters week in and week out. I think Cutler will eventually catch up with Rivers too ... but he has quite a ways to go. Suffice to say both teams' defenses will have their hands full for the next 15 years.

wabbit
06-10-2007, 02:12 AM
Win what? You ain't won shiat since Elway departed. What then do you say if can't-coach Norv sweeps your donks? What then? Just promise me you'll still be on the board.


Speaking of teams that haven't won sh*t (a particularly sensitive issue among our little Cheify friends) ...who did the Broncos play en route to the AFC Championship game a year and a half ago...uhmmmm, Patriots...yeah, two out of three SB wins.

Whipped up on 'em pretty good too.

Say, how did you fare against the Patriots this last winter...can't remember...like so many San Diego fiascos; as memorable as it was an absolutely predictable outcome.

Atlas
06-10-2007, 02:32 AM
You're acting like we just dumped Vince Lombardi. It was Marty Shottenheimer - the biggest postseason failure the NFL has ever seen! What exactly would be the point in keeping him? Especially after the real coaches Cam and Wade got hired away?

Norv Turner would be proud to have Marty's record.

footstepsfrom#27
06-10-2007, 02:42 AM
The point none of you Charger fans seem to understand is that while you look at things from within the narrow perspective of fans who are bascially new to winning, giddy and drunk on your recent success as if it entitles you somehow to more, we on the other hand know the value of long term stabililty that a winning organization produces because we've been there for so much longer than you have. You call that "living in the past". We know that the track record of the past is what the future is built on.

You don't have that stability. Instead what you have is a lightning in a bottle team with an owner who doesn't understand the value of empowering the head coach. So while you can take some kind of temporary solace in your perception of the talent you have on the field, the truth is, the front office is far more important than any snapshot taken of a team's talent over a short time frame...and obviously you have absolutely no idea what it's like to draft late in the first round year after year. You mention players drafted later as part of the hope you have for winning it all...but the truth is your team's fortunes are based on the players you drafted high in the first round...LT...Rivers...Merriman...in other words, the ones you got because you were one of the worst teams in the NFL.

When LT is done and Merriman decides to go elsewhere in free agency or gets kicked out for roids...you'll still have an owner who thinks it's OK to cut the legs out from under the head coach and a GM who thinks he should run the show on the field. I know you don't see it...but your prospects for success are limited exclusively to the short window you have with the current team...typically about 3 years. Ours rest on people who have been winning and contending year after year without the benefit of having picks at the top of the draft.

Don't believe me? Ask Raider and Cowboy fans how it works. Everything rises and falls on leadership...everything.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-10-2007, 02:51 AM
Everything rises and falls on leadership...everything.

This is so retarded. Are you really this in love with a coach that has ONE playoff win in the last eight years? ONE?

Herm has more.

NW Bolt Fan
06-10-2007, 02:53 AM
The point none of you Charger fans seem to understand is that while you look at things from within the narrow perspective of fans who are bascially new to winning, giddy and drunk on your recent success as if it entitles you somehow to more, we on the other hand know the value of long term stabililty that a winning organization produces because we've been there for so much longer than you have. You call that "living in the past". We know that the track record of the past is what the future is built on.

You don't have that stability. Instead what you have is a lightning in a bottle team with an owner who doesn't understand the value of empowering the head coach. So while you can take some kind of temporary solace in your perception of the talent you have on the field, the truth is, the front office is far more important than any snapshot taken of a team's talent over a short time frame...and obviously you have absolutely no idea what it's like to draft late in the first round year after year. You mention players drafted later as part of the hope you have for winning it all...but the truth is your team's fortunes are based on the players you drafted high in the first round...LT...Rivers...Merriman...in other words, the ones you got because you were one of the worst teams in the NFL.

When LT is done and Merriman decides to go elsewhere in free agency or gets kicked out for roids...you'll still have an owner who thinks it's OK to cut the legs out from under the head coach and a GM who thinks he should run the show on the field. I know you don't see it...but your prospects for success are limited exclusively to the short window you have with the current team...typically about 3 years. Ours rest on people who have been winning and contending year after year without the benefit of having picks at the top of the draft.

Don't believe me? Ask Raider and Cowboy fans how it works. Everything rises and falls on leadership...everything.
WOW. All I can say, is wow. So enlightening. So educating. So well put. Gosh, maybe some day we'll know what it's like to have a team built to last. I guess locking up more pro-bowl players and current starters than any other team in the NFL will hopefully one day lead to the type of sustained success enjoyed by the likes of the raiders.

One can only dream.

skpac1001
06-10-2007, 02:54 AM
Alright you two, let's just call a truce since this topic has been derailed enough as it is.

Kennedy may or may not contribute to this team. He was absolutely hated by the fans in St.Louis, so he's got a lot to prove. The biggest concern is that he seems to be a lazy player. If he doesn't make the team then you guys only lose a 6th rounder. Of course, the downside to that is that maybe the 6th rounder could have been used to move up in the draft or maybe draft someone better (the latter is probably not that likely).

Who would have thought trading for Kennedy would provoke this. I figured the news would get 1 page, maybe 2. I am all for this trade since I don't think it has much downside, but at this point this thread may be Kennedy's biggest impact since turning pro.

bronco610
06-10-2007, 02:54 AM
Boob are you saying any coach kc has had in the last 20 years is as good as Shan. What are you drinking?

footstepsfrom#27
06-10-2007, 03:02 AM
He'll be above .500 in two years.
You're delusional...from 58-82 to "over .500 in two years" would require you going 29-3 in the next two years.

No way that happens. Coupled with last season, that would give you a 43-5 record over three years...an .895 winning percentage.

Dream on...

Bob's your Information Minister
06-10-2007, 03:02 AM
Boob are you saying any coach kc has had in the last 20 years is as good as Shan. What are you drinking?

Don't compare yourself to the ****ty-ass Chiefs.

wabbit
06-10-2007, 03:06 AM
Boob are you saying any coach kc has had in the last 20 years is as good as Shan. What are you drinking?

Bobo makes liberal use of the term 'retarded'.

I can only guess he heard it often as a young cherub.

footstepsfrom#27
06-10-2007, 03:06 AM
WOW. All I can say, is wow. So enlightening. So educating. So well put. Gosh, maybe some day we'll know what it's like to have a team built to last. I guess locking up more pro-bowl players and current starters than any other team in the NFL will hopefully one day lead to the type of sustained success enjoyed by the likes of the raiders.

One can only dream.
I knew you wouldn't understand. But someday you will.

bronco610
06-10-2007, 03:08 AM
That and all of his (fans?) from his articles. He still thinks that is a compliment.:rofl: :rofl:

NW Bolt Fan
06-10-2007, 03:08 AM
You're delusional...from 58-82 to "over .500 in two years" would require you going 29-3 in the next two years.

No way that happens. Coupled with last season, that would give you a 43-5 record over three years...an .895 winning percentage.

Dream on...
Okay, you got me. 3 years then.

If we can win a few playoff games, like 3 in a row, I could care less if he makes the playoffs with a losing record.

NW Bolt Fan
06-10-2007, 03:09 AM
I knew you wouldn't understand. But someday you will.
That must mean we're on the right track now right! ;D

bronco610
06-10-2007, 03:10 AM
Okay, you got me. 3 years then.

If we can win a few playoff games, like 3 in a row, I could care less if he makes the playoffs with a losing record.

Pretty big IF!!!

DenverBrit
06-10-2007, 03:21 AM
Okay, you got me. 3 years then.

If we can win a few playoff games, like 3 in a row, I could care less if he makes the playoffs with a losing record.

SD had its best opportunity last year.
Home field after a bye, yet they looked like they didn't belong.
Good luck with the first place schedule.

Hawaii_Guy
06-10-2007, 03:22 AM
this is our year to win the AFC west SD had a hard schedule and will strugle with turner the looser.

maven
06-10-2007, 03:26 AM
Jimmy Kennedy, who is he? As this thread has turned.

The Chargers have the talent to win the next three SB's. Will they atleast win one?

footstepsfrom#27
06-10-2007, 03:27 AM
The biggest concern is that he seems to be a lazy player.
I knew somebody would say this...I've read quite a bit on Kennedy today...and NOTHING I've read suggests he's a lazy player...quite the contrary. Are you getting that from fans who were dissapointed he didn't seem to pan out or coaches? When Kennedy first showed up at Penn State he was over 400 pounds. He was afraid he couldn't do college work because he'd been in special ed classes in high school and scored poorly on the SAT's. Paterno's wife worked with him, and he not only got his grades up he made the honor role and got his degree. He worked like a dog and cut his weight down all the way to 306...Paterno actually ordered him to gain weight because he lost to much. He was getting up at 5 am 7 days a week to work out. He's been both a high character guy and a hard worker. His issues seem to stem from two problems; he had 3 different defensive coordinators in 3 years in St. Louis who switched him back and forth from DT to the Nose positon, where he'd never played before, and he had injury problems. He broke his foot his 2nd year, and had a hernia and a broken hand in '04 and '05...both of which he played through.

boltaneer
06-10-2007, 03:54 AM
Giving AJ Smith the control and power that he desires could very well backfire in the long run but what can you do? He has arguably made the best personnel moves in the league for the past few years.

If ownership doesn't give him what he wants he may end up wanting to leave and that would be a VERY bad PR move. Despite some of his controversial moves, in Charger fan's eyes AJ Smith ranks right up there with LT in terms of popularity right now.

Some have sited the bad decision to side with Bethard over Ross in the past. Yes, that was a tremendous mistake but AJ Smith has already far surpassed what Bethard accomplished in San Diego. Ross was more responsible for guiding the '94 team to the Super Bowl, rather than Bethard building a powerhouse team that got there. They were a Cinderella team that really had no chance at winning the Super Bowl.

As long as AJ Smith is in charge and continues making the types of personnel moves that he has, this team will be a team to contend with. Norv may crash and burn and if he does they can go out and get a better replacement in 2008.

maven
06-10-2007, 03:58 AM
I knew somebody would say this...I've read quite a bit on Kennedy today...and NOTHING I've read suggests he's a lazy player...quite the contrary. Are you getting that from fans who were dissapointed he didn't seem to pan out or coaches? When Kennedy first showed up at Penn State he was over 400 pounds. He was afraid he couldn't do college work because he'd been in special ed classes in high school and scored poorly on the SAT's. Paterno's wife worked with him, and he not only got his grades up he made the honor role and got his degree. He worked like a dog and cut his weight down all the way to 306...Paterno actually ordered him to gain weight because he lost to much. He was getting up at 5 am 7 days a week to work out. He's been both a high character guy and a hard worker. His issues seem to stem from two problems; he had 3 different defensive coordinators in 3 years in St. Louis who switched him back and forth from DT to the Nose positon, where he'd never played before, and he had injury problems. He broke his foot his 2nd year, and had a hernia and a broken hand in '04 and '05...both of which he played through.

Does it really matter? He's clearly, at this stage of his career, a boom or bust. Denver unloaded a 6th for him. It's clearly boom or bust.

footstepsfrom#27
06-10-2007, 04:05 AM
The danger you face is the same one the Cowboys and Raiders face...finding a coach willing to come in and be a yes man...not to many good coaches see that as a smart career move.

cutthemdown
06-10-2007, 04:16 AM
Giving AJ Smith the control and power that he desires could very well backfire in the long run but what can you do? He has arguably made the best personnel moves in the league for the past few years.

If ownership doesn't give him what he wants he may end up wanting to leave and that would be a VERY bad PR move. Despite some of his controversial moves, in Charger fan's eyes AJ Smith ranks right up there with LT in terms of popularity right now.

Some have sited the bad decision to side with Bethard over Ross in the past. Yes, that was a tremendous mistake but AJ Smith has already far surpassed what Bethard accomplished in San Diego. Ross was more responsible for guiding the '94 team to the Super Bowl, rather than Bethard building a powerhouse team that got there. They were a Cinderella team that really had no chance at winning the Super Bowl.

As long as AJ Smith is in charge and continues making the types of personnel moves that he has, this team will be a team to contend with. Norv may crash and burn and if he does they can go out and get a better replacement in 2008.


That sums up every good season SD has ever had.

boltaneer
06-10-2007, 07:45 AM
That sums up every good season SD has ever had.

We'll be fine as long as AJ keeps doing a great job.

theAPAOps5
06-10-2007, 09:58 AM
We'll be fine as long as AJ keeps doing a great job.

Well, if fine is having a loaded team and losing in the playoffs then I guess you are right.

Maximus
06-10-2007, 10:18 AM
The Lakers won two NBA titles with Shaq and Kobe, the Yankees win alot more than they lose, as for the Skins, that's idiotic, meddling ownership that keeps them down.

As for Denver, bringing in some FA's is not "buying" a championship. The Broncos are already good, they build through the draft as much as any other winning NFL franchise, and the stability in their coaching staff is excellent.

How many with Karl Malone? Shaq, Kobe and a few role players is one thing... As soon as they added a third person who had their own needs the team began to suffer even with regular season wins.

Paladin
06-10-2007, 10:43 AM
Well, after 14+ pages. I still think the Kennedy trade was a good deal. Given what I have read, I think he can well add to the overall upgrade of the DL from last year.


Oh, yeah, and Sandy Eggo sucks........

400HZ
06-10-2007, 10:43 AM
You're delusional...from 58-82 to "over .500 in two years" would require you going 29-3 in the next two years.

No way that happens. Coupled with last season, that would give you a 43-5 record over three years...an .895 winning percentage.

Dream on...

We'd be getting critisized just as much if Marty was still onboard.

400HZ
06-10-2007, 10:48 AM
Well, if fine is having a loaded team and losing in the playoffs then I guess you are right.

SD will maintain a roster with top talent and be competing for a SB every year. That's where AJ Smith puts the team. Coming out of nowhere and winning a championship wasn't in the cards last year. It might take a few tries. Look at Pittsburgh and Indy and how hard they had to work for it. I think SD is on that path right now.

Tombstone RJ
06-10-2007, 10:55 AM
How many with Karl Malone? Shaq, Kobe and a few role players is one thing... As soon as they added a third person who had their own needs the team began to suffer even with regular season wins.

The Lakers won two NBA championships, period. Way to cherry pick one aspect of my post. Fact is, your argument for the Broncos building a "dream team" is weak.

The frick'n faiders are one of the most aggressive teams in FA in the NFL. Big Al does spend the money, but he's a "meddling" owner just like Danny boy in Washington and Jerra Jones in Dallas.

skpac1001
06-10-2007, 11:58 AM
How many with Karl Malone? Shaq, Kobe and a few role players is one thing... As soon as they added a third person who had their own needs the team began to suffer even with regular season wins.

You have convinced me. We are now doomed to mediocrity after trading a 6th round pick for a one year deal at 700,000 a year for a player who is not needed to start. We have now joined the Cardinals, Browns, and Raiders as most hopeless franchises.
If only we had not attempted to upgrade our team at 2 starting positions and 3 depth positions. Damn.

theAPAOps5
06-10-2007, 12:31 PM
SD will maintain a roster with top talent and be competing for a SB every year. That's where AJ Smith puts the team. Coming out of nowhere and winning a championship wasn't in the cards last year. It might take a few tries. Look at Pittsburgh and Indy and how hard they had to work for it. I think SD is on that path right now.

Ah but the common denominator for Pittsburgh and Indy is GOOD coaching, or better yet coaching that has been in place for many years. You have Norv the wonder boy Turner and two new coordinators. So that is why you have such a big question mark this year. Not saying they won't excel just saying thats as worrisome as us starting a rookie and losing our team leader in Al Wilson.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-10-2007, 12:42 PM
Ah but the common denominator for Pittsburgh and Indy is GOOD coaching

How is Herm any different from Bill Cowher?

400HZ
06-10-2007, 01:24 PM
Ah but the common denominator for Pittsburgh and Indy is GOOD coaching, or better yet coaching that has been in place for many years. You have Norv the wonder boy Turner and two new coordinators. So that is why you have such a big question mark this year. Not saying they won't excel just saying thats as worrisome as us starting a rookie and losing our team leader in Al Wilson.

I'm not disagreeing. The Chargers need to take care of their own business to advance to the next level. The new coaching staff needs to put players in a position to succeed. Since our players are generally more talented than other teams players, this team can win a championship if the coaches make that happen.

NW Bolt Fan
06-10-2007, 01:29 PM
I knew somebody would say this...I've read quite a bit on Kennedy today...and NOTHING I've read suggests he's a lazy player...quite the contrary. Are you getting that from fans who were dissapointed he didn't seem to pan out or coaches? When Kennedy first showed up at Penn State he was over 400 pounds. He was afraid he couldn't do college work because he'd been in special ed classes in high school and scored poorly on the SAT's. Paterno's wife worked with him, and he not only got his grades up he made the honor role and got his degree. He worked like a dog and cut his weight down all the way to 306...Paterno actually ordered him to gain weight because he lost to much. He was getting up at 5 am 7 days a week to work out. He's been both a high character guy and a hard worker. His issues seem to stem from two problems; he had 3 different defensive coordinators in 3 years in St. Louis who switched him back and forth from DT to the Nose positon, where he'd never played before, and he had injury problems. He broke his foot his 2nd year, and had a hernia and a broken hand in '04 and '05...both of which he played through.And then he got a payday... ONLY shot of him turning into something was already mentioned by someone, contract year is a great motivator.

Inkana7
06-10-2007, 01:33 PM
How is Herm any different from Bill Cowher?

He's not good.

NW Bolt Fan
06-10-2007, 01:41 PM
SD had its best opportunity last year. Agreed.
Home field after a bye, yet they looked like they didn't belong. Disagree.
Good luck with the first place schedule. Thanks. We're @ New England, and home vs. Baltimore, while you guys are @ Buffalo, and home vs. Pittsburgh. Otherwise the schedules are the same. Unless you figure that 6 of your last 9 are on the road... Good luck with that.

NW Bolt Fan
06-10-2007, 01:47 PM
Giving AJ Smith the control and power that he desires could very well backfire in the long run but what can you do? He has arguably made the best personnel moves in the league for the past few years.

If ownership doesn't give him what he wants he may end up wanting to leave and that would be a VERY bad PR move. Despite some of his controversial moves, in Charger fan's eyes AJ Smith ranks right up there with LT in terms of popularity right now.

Some have sited the bad decision to side with Bethard over Ross in the past. Yes, that was a tremendous mistake but AJ Smith has already far surpassed what Bethard accomplished in San Diego. Ross was more responsible for guiding the '94 team to the Super Bowl, rather than Bethard building a powerhouse team that got there. They were a Cinderella team that really had no chance at winning the Super Bowl.

As long as AJ Smith is in charge and continues making the types of personnel moves that he has, this team will be a team to contend with. Norv may crash and burn and if he does they can go out and get a better replacement in 2008.Not so sure I agree with that. Beathard brought in every significant player on the team, save O'Neal. Otherwise, he'd traded for Humphries, and Means. Traded for Martin. Drafted Andre Coleman, etc. Beathard recieved alot of blame for ruining this team's future, some of it warranted, some not so much. His talent got us to the SB. AJ's hasn't yet. Obviously the biggest mistake was Leaf, and that's more what he's been known for- in large because it handcuffed the team to a dickwad for years. Regardless, the future is bright.:sunshine:

NW Bolt Fan
06-10-2007, 01:52 PM
Well, after 14+ pages. I still think the Kennedy trade was a good deal. Given what I have read, I think he can well add to the overall upgrade of the DL from last year.


Oh, yeah, and Sandy Eggo sucks........
After it's all said and done, I'd say the 6th rounder for Kennedy is a good move. Sure you lose a 6th, but c'mon? You still have other draft picks- several 4ths I thought I saw, and if you REALLY want a 6th that badly, surely you can trade it for a couple 6ths...

And, as much as Denver moves around with draft picks, I'm pretty sure the picks you have now, won't be the picks you have next April.

DeuceOfClub
06-10-2007, 01:59 PM
BTW, when will the Chargers move from San Diego and Dump-comm Stadium to a city that actually want them?
Will it be next year?

Me think Guadalajara Tacos sounds good and sits well with the NFL globalization plans.

theAPAOps5
06-10-2007, 02:09 PM
I'm not disagreeing. The Chargers need to take care of their own business to advance to the next level. The new coaching staff needs to put players in a position to succeed. Since our players are generally more talented than other teams players, this team can win a championship if the coaches make that happen.

Exactly its all on the coaching. My theory on why SD lost that game to New Stinkland is that Marty was notorious for over amping his players. He gets them all fired up ready to kill and they go out and overplay which leads to mistakes. Case in point if Marlon McCree just knocks down the pass or intercepts and then just lays down you guys win. Now Norv has his own issues, such as being a GREAT coordinator but a lousy coach. Who knows maybe he can take that next step. But he has not proven anything yet.

Last note, we kept hearing from you guys during the playoffs that this will be the year for Marty to take the step. You guys said the same things, this team is too talented, Marty has learned his lesson. Excuse after excuse after excuse. But the result was still the same. Now its the same thing with Norv what will be your excuse if he ends up being the same old Norv. Is it maybe time to start calling out the control freak GM who is great at picking players but just plane retarded with his coaching moves?

footstepsfrom#27
06-10-2007, 02:25 PM
And then he got a payday... ONLY shot of him turning into something was already mentioned by someone, contract year is a great motivator.
There is no evidence that getting paid is what motivates this guy. Everything I've read on him suggests otherwise. His biggest problem has been that he's been bounced back and forth for differing assignments by three different coaches, all who saw his role differently. Even his coaches admit he has a high motor. He's played through injuries also. He was expected to be gone an entire season with a broken foot. Instead he missed only half the year. He also played through both a hernia and a broken hand.

One thing is undeniable. He has monster talent. He was considered by far the most talented DT coming out of the draft. The big difference between this year's line and last year's is talent. Now it just remains to be seen if Bates can bring that talent to the surface or not.

footstepsfrom#27
06-10-2007, 02:28 PM
We'd be getting critisized just as much if Marty was still onboard.
Yes...but for a much different reason. It's one thing to fire a coach who can't get you to the next level. It's another thing entirely to let the whole world, including your players, know that from this point forward, whoever coaches your team is a powerless puppet dancing at the whim of the suit in the front office. That disrupts locker rooms, breaks down discipline and creates havoc with the chain of command. It eventually turns talented teams into underachieving teams.

Xenos
06-10-2007, 03:12 PM
Exactly its all on the coaching. My theory on why SD lost that game to New Stinkland is that Marty was notorious for over amping his players. He gets them all fired up ready to kill and they go out and overplay which leads to mistakes. Case in point if Marlon McCree just knocks down the pass or intercepts and then just lays down you guys win. Now Norv has his own issues, such as being a GREAT coordinator but a lousy coach. Who knows maybe he can take that next step. But he has not proven anything yet.

Last note, we kept hearing from you guys during the playoffs that this will be the year for Marty to take the step. You guys said the same things, this team is too talented, Marty has learned his lesson. Excuse after excuse after excuse. But the result was still the same. Now its the same thing with Norv what will be your excuse if he ends up being the same old Norv. Is it maybe time to start calling out the control freak GM who is great at picking players but just plane retarded with his coaching moves?
Well, considering that he didn't pick Marty to be coach, we won't know how his choices are till this year. I believe AJ was responsible for getting Wade Phillips because of their connection in Buffalo when Marty wanted his brother to be DC.

theAPAOps5
06-10-2007, 03:16 PM
The retarded coaching moves I am referring to are this year. Wait until your OC and DC have left then fire the coach. They clearly were on the opposite end of the page. He could have done this way sooner when way more talented coaches were available. If this teams fails this year, barring uncontrolled situations, I think AJ is to blame.

Xenos
06-10-2007, 03:32 PM
The retarded coaching moves I am referring to are this year. Wait until your OC and DC have left then fire the coach. They clearly were on the opposite end of the page. He could have done this way sooner when way more talented coaches were available. If this teams fails this year, barring uncontrolled situations, I think AJ is to blame.
Dean is the one to blame for that move. He shouldn't have waited so long.

Atlas
06-10-2007, 03:38 PM
Dean is the one to blame for that move. He shouldn't have waited so long.

We were talking about this last year. You either fire Marty or you extend him. You don't want any coach to be a lame duck. They messed it up. They shouldn't have fired Marty. He is a great coach.

fontaine
06-10-2007, 03:45 PM
The fact that the Kennedy trade took place after the OTAs shows me that Bates wasn't satisfied with certain players there.

Whether it's Marcus Thomas, or Veal, or Warren etc is anyone's guess. Although Kennedy is soft as melted cheese, it's his final year so maybe he can play better than before.

Signing these guys like Adams, Kennedy etc who are on one year deals is ok I guess but it's no different than the previous crappy moves that team has made at DT. Short term questionable moves rather than any long term solution. And in that regard I hope it'll be the young players like Warren/Thomas/Veal/Mckinley that shine because it'll bode well for the long term prospects of the DL on this team.

Xenos
06-10-2007, 03:50 PM
We were talking about this last year. You either fire Marty or you extend him. You don't want any coach to be a lame duck. They messed it up. They shouldn't have fired Marty. He is a great coach.
Apparently they felt that he was nothing more than glorified cheerleader, which is why they should have gotten rid of him earlier since they were so in love with the coordinators. It's the reason why Turner and Cottrell were hired, to replace Cam and Wade, not Marty.
Heck, I feel sorry for the guy. He deserved to win a championship last year, and it wasn't entirely his fault for what happened in the playoffs. That being said, he wasn't playing an active role during game day anymore except for motivational speeches during halftime.

Atlas
06-10-2007, 03:52 PM
Apparently they felt that he was nothing more than glorified cheerleader, which is why they should have gotten rid of him earlier since they were so in love with the coordinators. It's the reason why Turner and Cottrell were hired, to replace Cam and Wade, not Marty.

Yeah Kansas City and Cleveland thought the same thing and neither one of them have been as good since he left.

footstepsfrom#27
06-10-2007, 04:13 PM
The fact that the Kennedy trade took place after the OTAs shows me that Bates wasn't satisfied with certain players there.

Whether it's Marcus Thomas, or Veal, or Warren etc is anyone's guess. Although Kennedy is soft as melted cheese, it's his final year so maybe he can play better than before.

Signing these guys like Adams, Kennedy etc who are on one year deals is ok I guess but it's no different than the previous crappy moves that team has made at DT. Short term questionable moves rather than any long term solution. And in that regard I hope it'll be the young players like Warren/Thomas/Veal/Mckinley that shine because it'll bode well for the long term prospects of the DL on this team.
I've been one of the chief proponents of what you're saying, but I actually think this move is a bit different. First of all, the guy is 26 years old, not 33 like most of these guys we usually bring in. Second, there are extenuating circumstances here; his injury history has no significant stuff in it like an ACL, just things that have combined to slow his progress or cause him to miss some games. On top of that he went through 3 different coaches in 3 years, each one expecting him to do something different. He was still produtive in his only year as a starter with over 50 tackles...that's a significant number for an NT...there are no character issues, no major injury concerns, no large contracts to absorb...he's a very low risk, and potentially a very high reward if Bates is able to make this guy into something more than he is. On top of that if you read up on this guy's history, he's gone through a lot and overcome adversity in big ways. He's a hard worker too. Talent-wise, he's probably the equal of any lineman they have on the team.

Now it's up to Bates & Co. to see if they can make it work.

theAPAOps5
06-10-2007, 04:16 PM
One thing can be said about Bates is his players love him. So he could invigerate these guys and mold them into serviceable players.

cutthemdown
06-10-2007, 04:28 PM
The fact that the Kennedy trade took place after the OTAs shows me that Bates wasn't satisfied with certain players there.

Whether it's Marcus Thomas, or Veal, or Warren etc is anyone's guess. Although Kennedy is soft as melted cheese, it's his final year so maybe he can play better than before.

Signing these guys like Adams, Kennedy etc who are on one year deals is ok I guess but it's no different than the previous crappy moves that team has made at DT. Short term questionable moves rather than any long term solution. And in that regard I hope it'll be the young players like Warren/Thomas/Veal/Mckinley that shine because it'll bode well for the long term prospects of the DL on this team.

Well it's possible Rams didn't shop Kennedy until after our OTA's were finished, who really knows. For sure though Bates isn't going to like what he sees. He's only been involved for 1 offseason. I would think until maybe 2-3 offseasons have gone by he won't really have put his official stamp on the defense. He will need more then 1 draft one round of FA. So for sure this year he has went bargain shopping just trying to get bigger in the box on defense. Adams is a quick fix vet to get through this year, but I really think Kennedy is more a reclamation project on par with what we are trying to do with Warren.

boltaneer
06-10-2007, 04:52 PM
BTW, when will the Chargers move from San Diego and Dump-comm Stadium to a city that actually want them?
Will it be next year?

Me think Guadalajara Tacos sounds good and sits well with the NFL globalization plans.

A location is going to be put on the ballot for vote next year. Either Oceanside or Chula Vista. My money is on Oceanside because of the better location to Orange County.

As much as I bash the city for screwing up the whole stadium deal, it's really the result of a few idiots in the local government here. And believe it or not, it's not as simple as raising money from a bake sale. The economic situation here does not really correlate with wanting to keep the team or not.

Tombstone RJ
06-10-2007, 05:02 PM
There's no way the NFL will allow the Bolts to leave SoCal. That's just assinine from a business perspective.

Moving the bolts to the LA area just makes sense. Hell, they started as one of the original AFL West teams and they started in LA. The team later moved to San Diego.

Atlas
06-10-2007, 05:28 PM
There's no way the NFL will allow the Bolts to leave SoCal. That's just assinine from a business perspective.

Moving the bolts to the LA area just makes sense. Hell, they started as one of the original AFL West teams and they started in LA. The team later moved to San Diego.

Dude the Browns left Cleveland!!! The Colts left Baltimore!! But the Chargers with all their rich tradition won't be able to leave? Hilarious!

Build them a ****ing stadium and they will stay vote against it and LA bound they are.

theAPAOps5
06-10-2007, 05:43 PM
LA or Las Vegas. Granted the NFL wants a presence in the Southern California bonanza of marketing so I wouldn't be surprised to see them in LA.

R8R H8R
06-10-2007, 05:45 PM
A location is going to be put on the ballot for vote next year. Either Oceanside or Chula Vista. My money is on Oceanside because of the better location to Orange County.

As much as I bash the city for screwing up the whole stadium deal, it's really the result of a few idiots in the local government here. And believe it or not, it's not as simple as raising money from a bake sale. The economic situation here does not really correlate with wanting to keep the team or not.

I still say south Orange County(like the Mission Viejo area) would be the perfect move. Oceanside is a little too south. Think about it, south Orange County wouldn't be too far for San Diego fans, it is about 30-40 minutes for LA fans, and about an hour for those in the San Bernardino/Riverside areas. It would be perfectly located to capture about four major markets (SD,OC,LA,SB/Riv).

It is so perfect, Spanos will **** it up for sure.

rubaiyat
06-10-2007, 06:15 PM
The Lakers won two NBA championships, period. Way to cherry pick one aspect of my post. Fact is, your argument for the Broncos building a "dream team" is weak.

The frick'n faiders are one of the most aggressive teams in FA in the NFL. Big Al does spend the money, but he's a "meddling" owner just like Danny boy in Washington and Jerra Jones in Dallas.

Minor Quibble:
Lakers won three with Kobe and Shaq.

I agree the "dream team" argument is hardly valid. The Lakers didn't win the championship the previous year either. Dynasties eventually need to reload. And Malone got hurt in the playoffs. I guarantee with a second big threat for the Pistons to deal with that series would have been closer.

broncosteven
06-10-2007, 06:16 PM
I like that the Staff is finally addressing the Dline! 1st the draft & now picking up Adams & Kennedy.

Next year we may be squaking about the Saftey positions not being addressed but at least it will not be Dline again!

DeuceOfClub
06-10-2007, 06:19 PM
They already have plans (http://supersmallgallery.com/London/garbage_pickup.jpg) for the new stadium.

fontaine
06-10-2007, 08:21 PM
I've been one of the chief proponents of what you're saying, but I actually think this move is a bit different. First of all, the guy is 26 years old, not 33 like most of these guys we usually bring in. Second, there are extenuating circumstances here; his injury history has no significant stuff in it like an ACL, just things that have combined to slow his progress or cause him to miss some games. On top of that he went through 3 different coaches in 3 years, each one expecting him to do something different. He was still produtive in his only year as a starter with over 50 tackles...that's a significant number for an NT...there are no character issues, no major injury concerns, no large contracts to absorb...he's a very low risk, and potentially a very high reward if Bates is able to make this guy into something more than he is. On top of that if you read up on this guy's history, he's gone through a lot and overcome adversity in big ways. He's a hard worker too. Talent-wise, he's probably the equal of any lineman they have on the team.

Now it's up to Bates & Co. to see if they can make it work.

High reward? I would be surprised if Kennedy made it past final cuts. Thankfully we've got nothing invested in this guy (unlike the Rams) so we won't waste time watching him suck and will cut his lazy a$$ if he shows no improvement.

Malcontent
06-10-2007, 08:24 PM
High reward? I would be surprised if Kennedy made it past final cuts. Thankfully we've got nothing invested in this guy (unlike the Rams) so we won't waste time watching him suck and will cut his lazy a$$ if he shows no improvement.

Whyncha give it a shot first before:thanku: you slam the living daylights out of it!

footstepsfrom#27
06-10-2007, 08:30 PM
High reward? I would be surprised if Kennedy made it past final cuts. Thankfully we've got nothing invested in this guy (unlike the Rams) so we won't waste time watching him suck and will cut his lazy a$$ if he shows no improvement.
Yes...potential for high reward. He's got as much or more talent than any lineman on this team. If you can get a guy with top 10 in the draft talent who has some extenuating circumstances to his career, is young, huge and healthy...that is obviously "potential for high reward."

And where are you getting the idea that he's lazy? Read up on him...he's definitely not lazy...just the opposite.

400HZ
06-10-2007, 08:42 PM
LA or Las Vegas. Granted the NFL wants a presence in the Southern California bonanza of marketing so I wouldn't be surprised to see them in LA.

The problem with LA is that the local government there is just as stupid as the local government in San Diego. Qualcomm is preferable to the Colliseum at this point. Spanos really has nothing to gain by moving from one **** stadium to another, and he's said as much. I think Oceanside will end up being the location settled on.

theAPAOps5
06-10-2007, 08:49 PM
The problem with LA is that the local government there is just as stupid as the local government in San Diego. Qualcomm is preferable to the Colliseum at this point. Spanos really has nothing to gain by moving from one **** stadium to another, and he's said as much. I think Oceanside will end up being the location settled on.

Very true, the Colliseum is a **** poor stadium. I like the idea of South Orange county. That would get Spanos into a nice little hub area for the major SoCal markets.

bronco militia
06-10-2007, 08:52 PM
http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/denver/drew/archives/drew06097.gif

broncosteven
06-10-2007, 09:34 PM
http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/denver/drew/archives/drew06097.gif

I am all for this! Clog the line & Let DJ flow to the ball. Too bad Al had to play behind crap most of his career.

NW Bolt Fan
06-11-2007, 02:35 AM
Yes...but for a much different reason. It's one thing to fire a coach who can't get you to the next level. It's another thing entirely to let the whole world, including your players, know that from this point forward, whoever coaches your team is a powerless puppet dancing at the whim of the suit in the front office. That disrupts locker rooms, breaks down discipline and creates havoc with the chain of command. It eventually turns talented teams into underachieving teams.You're an expert here or what? Are you an underachiever?

NW Bolt Fan
06-11-2007, 02:38 AM
There is no evidence that getting paid is what motivates this guy. Everything I've read on him suggests otherwise. His biggest problem has been that he's been bounced back and forth for differing assignments by three different coaches, all who saw his role differently. Even his coaches admit he has a high motor. He's played through injuries also. He was expected to be gone an entire season with a broken foot. Instead he missed only half the year. He also played through both a hernia and a broken hand.

One thing is undeniable. He has monster talent. He was considered by far the most talented DT coming out of the draft. The big difference between this year's line and last year's is talent. Now it just remains to be seen if Bates can bring that talent to the surface or not.yeah, he's a monster talent. That's why StL. let him go for a 6th... What's wrong with contract year being the motivator? He's in a contract year! I figured Donnie Edwards would have a great year in SD because of the same last year- and he did well in the playoff game.

I don't think he's intrinsically motivated to do well if that's what you're implying. Dude is plenty happy collecting a fat paycheck and working in NFL mediocrity- which still is nothing to shake a stick at, but doens't get you over the top.

NW Bolt Fan
06-11-2007, 02:43 AM
He [AJ] could have done this way sooner when way more talented coaches were available.Like? If the Bolts fired MArty IMMEDIATELY, who do they hire?

Killericon
06-11-2007, 02:45 AM
I can't believe that this has run on for 16 pages. Wilkenson didn't get this much talk, and he was playing at a lower level, being paid more, and we (un)got him for the same. We got him for a 6th. If he fits into our system, then it's a good trade. If he does'nt then we lost a 6th. SoCalBronco may cry for an hour, but noone else will care over the lost training camp scrub. It's not like WE spent a 12th overall pick on the guy.

NW Bolt Fan
06-11-2007, 02:45 AM
Yeah Kansas City and Cleveland thought the same thing and neither one of them have been as good since he left.
Cleveland lost their whole ball club. The "cast-offs" went on to win a superbowl. KC didn't accomplish anything- not that they did with Marty either- but Vermeil managed to post some decent numbers more than once, and last I checked, KC went to the playoffs last year while the Donks were at home.

Killericon
06-11-2007, 02:46 AM
Like? If the Bolts fired MArty IMMEDIATELY, who do they hire?

Cam Cameron or Wade Phillips, perhaps the 2 best HC signings of this past offseason.

NW Bolt Fan
06-11-2007, 02:49 AM
There's no way the NFL will allow the Bolts to leave SoCal. That's just assinine from a business perspective.

Moving the bolts to the LA area just makes sense. Hell, they started as one of the original AFL West teams and they started in LA. The team later moved to San Diego.
After reading the Mark Fabiani (bolts PR guy brought in to "coordinate" stadium efforts) chat transcript, I'd say the rhetoric has begun. Very non committal, and very PRO- how ownership has bent over backwards, yada, yada, yada...

70% they're in LA for the '09 season. 2010 at the latest.

Unless there's a MIRACULOUS financial turnaround for the city of SD- the run is soon to be over.

NW Bolt Fan
06-11-2007, 02:57 AM
Cam Cameron or Wade Phillips, perhaps the 2 best HC signings of this past offseason.
How nice. A catch-22. Actually would have loved Phillips, but dont' really know who they'd have hired as OC that knew the system as intricately as Cameron or Turner. All things considered- it worked out pretty damn good. It probably depends on your philisophical views, but I'd rather players didn't have to learn an entire new system, with new terms, new focus, etc... And if the coaches hired actually already know the system, that means even LESS time lost in translation. So really, the difference becomes Norv's personality vs. Marty's. There seems likely to be some give and take in both respects. And Wade's difference from Cottrell, which is something I'm a bit more curious to see in the end. Our O will still be very, VERY good. D- up in the air. To a degree.

boltaneer
06-11-2007, 03:05 AM
Cam Cameron or Wade Phillips, perhaps the 2 best HC signings of this past offseason.

That remains to be seen. Cam is a rookie HC. Wade would have been a decent choice but he's done less than Marty in the playoffs. So I don't see that as much different than hiring Norv.

Anyway, Cam didn't have a shot in hell at the HC position. He was a Marty-guy. Wade was an AJ guy. I suspect that AJ wanted Wade and once Wade got hired by Dallas, that's when the sh*t hit the fan. And I personally think Cam will not do well as a HC.

There weren't a lot of great choices out there, outside of hiring a young guy with a lot of potential but no head coaching experience. (Tomlin, Cameron, Wisenhunt, etc.). Most of the new coaches would probably want to install their own systems here and that's not what you want to do with a team that went 14-2 last season.

Killericon
06-11-2007, 03:08 AM
So really, the difference becomes Norv's personality vs. Marty's.

There's an optimistic point of view.

boltaneer
06-11-2007, 03:08 AM
After reading the Mark Fabiani (bolts PR guy brought in to "coordinate" stadium efforts) chat transcript, I'd say the rhetoric has begun. Very non committal, and very PRO- how ownership has bent over backwards, yada, yada, yada...

70% they're in LA for the '09 season. 2010 at the latest.

Unless there's a MIRACULOUS financial turnaround for the city of SD- the run is soon to be over.

What?

Where would they play in LA? There's nothing better there than playing in Qualcomm.

From what I've read, it looks like the Oceanside site will have a great shot at making the ballot next year.

I think there's almost no chance they're going to LA. Orange County maybe but even that's going to be far down the road as there's nowhere there to play either. Oceanside has a much better shot.

footstepsfrom#27
06-11-2007, 03:13 AM
yeah, he's a monster talent. That's why StL. let him go for a 6th... What's wrong with contract year being the motivator? He's in a contract year! I figured Donnie Edwards would have a great year in SD because of the same last year- and he did well in the playoff game.

I don't think he's intrinsically motivated to do well if that's what you're implying. Dude is plenty happy collecting a fat paycheck and working in NFL mediocrity- which still is nothing to shake a stick at, but doens't get you over the top.
You obviously haven't read anything on this guy have you?

cutthemdown
06-11-2007, 03:13 AM
I'm not convinced SD taxpayers will vote for it. A Superbowl win would sure help things out.

boltaneer
06-11-2007, 03:24 AM
I'm not convinced SD taxpayers will vote for it. A Superbowl win would sure help things out.

The current proposed plan would not involve taxpayer money.

But a Super Bowl win would definitely help anyway.

NW Bolt Fan
06-11-2007, 03:28 AM
Reason I think they're on their way out of SD, again was the chat transcript with Fabiani. Somebody questioned him if they (Spanos') would be okay with building a place on basically a payment plan. In Glendale they raised local tourist taxes to pay for the stadium, and it's royally brought in revenue for the community. But Fabiani is saying that's out of the question. They won't even visit the option. They want to develop- bottom line. I do think the Spanos' are trying hard to stay in SD, but some of it is lip service. They're not COMPLETELY bending over backwards as is implied. Some is for PR if they do end up moving.

People in SD will be seriously bummed if the Bolts leave. Not because of the team, but becasue they're going to end up with a gigantic eye sore that will sit in memorial for ages to come- without anyone willing to clean it up. Pure idiocy on the part of many politicians, but I am biased. And I don't even live in SD anymore to begin with. Se la vi.

NW Bolt Fan
06-11-2007, 03:31 AM
Not to mention somethign I can't believe totally escaped my thinking, but the whole "seeking to find a development parter" thing when I knew all along that Spanos' are like #5 producers nationwide of condos and such... Umm, errr, yeah.

Again, I figure they'd like to stay- but their loyalties to the city ain't going to be taking precedence over their business minds. They in the business of making money. And winners are more lucrative. And so are winners who hold anyone in the area hostage are worth even more.

fontaine
06-11-2007, 05:39 AM
Yes...potential for high reward. He's got as much or more talent than any lineman on this team. If you can get a guy with top 10 in the draft talent who has some extenuating circumstances to his career, is young, huge and healthy...that is obviously "potential for high reward."

And where are you getting the idea that he's lazy? Read up on him...he's definitely not lazy...just the opposite.


I get that he's lazy because as you said yourself he's got top 10 talent but he hasn't produced it on the field. So either he's soft or lazy. Take your pick.

I've got nothing against the move really because it only cost us a 6th but I really hope he doesn't make it past final cuts because it would mean Bates isn't happy with the other talent there to take a risk with this bust.

footstepsfrom#27
06-11-2007, 08:32 AM
I get that he's lazy because as you said yourself he's got top 10 talent but he hasn't produced it on the field. So either he's soft or lazy. Take your pick.

I've got nothing against the move really because it only cost us a 6th but I really hope he doesn't make it past final cuts because it would mean Bates isn't happy with the other talent there to take a risk with this bust.
Read something on this guy before you assume this. He broke his foot his 2nd year and was supposed to be out for the year. He came back early (maybe to early?) and played half the season. He also played THROUGH a hernia and a broken hand the last two years. On top of that he had 3 seperate coaches all wanting to use him in different ways in three years. Last year he had over 50 tackles from the NT position...not exactly horrible.

Over and over all his coaches and others have praised him as a tireless worker with a high motor. Ther is ZERO evidence he's lazy. He also came from a background where he had to overcome a lot. His mother was a drug addict and he was the man of the houe from age 4...then put in a group home. He worked his way into staying at PSU by having Paternos wife tutor him...he also lost almost 100 pounds his freshman year to become a starter...nearly unheard of at PSU.

Instead of rooting against him, you ought to be hoping we found a diamond in the rough.

Atlas
06-11-2007, 09:52 AM
KC didn't accomplish anything- not that they did with Marty either- but Vermeil managed to post some decent numbers more than once, and last I checked, KC went to the playoffs last year while the Donks were at home.

KC went to the AFC Championship game under Marty. They won 3 division titlea under Marty. Since he left they have won division title and no playoff wins.

400HZ
06-11-2007, 10:04 AM
KC went to the AFC Championship game under Marty. They won 3 division titlea under Marty. Since he left they have won division title and no playoff wins.

Maybe you should start a petition to bring Marty into Denver. He's available.

fontaine
06-11-2007, 10:07 AM
Read something on this guy before you assume this. He broke his foot his 2nd year and was supposed to be out for the year. He came back early (maybe to early?) and played half the season. He also played THROUGH a hernia and a broken hand the last two years. On top of that he had 3 seperate coaches all wanting to use him in different ways in three years. Last year he had over 50 tackles from the NT position...not exactly horrible.

Over and over all his coaches and others have praised him as a tireless worker with a high motor. Ther is ZERO evidence he's lazy. He also came from a background where he had to overcome a lot. His mother was a drug addict and he was the man of the houe from age 4...then put in a group home. He worked his way into staying at PSU by having Paternos wife tutor him...he also lost almost 100 pounds his freshman year to become a starter...nearly unheard of at PSU.

Instead of rooting against him, you ought to be hoping we found a diamond in the rough.

Ok then he's soft.
:~ohyah!:

I'm not rooting against him. I just don't believe in underachieving, busts who can't take advantage of their talent. I've felt the same way about him now as before when he was a ram.

If Ryan Sims suddenly became a Bronco would I change my opinion of him as a bust?

Show me something, earn my respect. Until then you're an underachieving, soft, bust Jimmy Kennedy.

footstepsfrom#27
06-11-2007, 10:42 AM
Ok then he's soft.
:~ohyah!:

I'm not rooting against him. I just don't believe in underachieving, busts who can't take advantage of their talent. I've felt the same way about him now as before when he was a ram.

If Ryan Sims suddenly became a Bronco would I change my opinion of him as a bust?

Show me something, earn my respect. Until then you're an underachieving, soft, bust Jimmy Kennedy.
It's not like this guy is 33 years old...he's played only 3 1/2 years...there are a lot of players who for one reason or another take longer to make it. This is a kid who has been getting up at 5:00 am 7 days a week to work out. He loves the weight room. He's not just a high character guy...he doesn't party at all...doesn't even drink or smoke...says he has never drank alcohol...proposed to his college sweetheart in college instead of out there chasing skirts. He stays in his room when other players go to clulbs. When he came to PSU he didn't think he could make it academically because he'd been in special ed classes in high school. He worked with JoPa's wife tutoring him and he made the honor roll...graduated with his degree. He weighed over 400 when he got there and worked so hard he lost 100 pounds to get in shape. Everyone who knows this guy says he's got a great work ethic. They also say he's very competitive on the field. Injuries, coaching changes, different expectations from each coach, impatience from the fan base and now the idea that Adam Carriker is going to play NT in St. Louis are what caused them to move him. Talent wise this guy might be the most talented D-line guy on our roster. He was the #1 DT on virtually every draft list but fell because people thinking he might struggle with weight. But he's kept his weight down. He's run a 4.97 at 325 pounds. He's huge and extremely quick. IF Bates is all he's cracked up to be, it's highly possible he can turn this kid's talent into production. I'd much rather have superior talent and the possibility of a high ceiling than some UFA who might make the roster on guts alone but probably won't ever be special. I've seen enough of that. This kid has All Pro level talent. Will he utilize it? Maybe...maybe not...but who's to say he can't do it?

I keep hearing what a genius/miracle worker Bates is. If this is true, and if this kid has his head screwed on straight with a change of scenery and a fresh start...we could have a 7 year starter and a rock in the middle of our line. I sure wouldn't be hoping he fails...what's up with that? If we can somehow pull off getting a stud DT for a 6th...that's a huge advantage.

Mediator12
06-11-2007, 11:21 AM
It's not like this guy is 33 years old...he's played only 3 1/2 years...there are a lot of players who for one reason or another take longer to make it. This is a kid who has been getting up at 5:00 am 7 days a week to work out. He loves the weight room. He's not just a high character guy...he doesn't party at all...doesn't even drink or smoke...says he has never drank alcohol...proposed to his college sweetheart in college instead of out there chasing skirts. He stays in his room when other players go to clulbs. When he came to PSU he didn't think he could make it academically because he'd been in special ed classes in high school. He worked with JoPa's wife tutoring him and he made the honor roll...graduated with his degree. He weighed over 400 when he got there and worked so hard he lost 100 pounds to get in shape. Everyone who knows this guy says he's got a great work ethic. They also say he's very competitive on the field. Injuries, coaching changes, different expectations from each coach, impatience from the fan base and now the idea that Adam Carriker is going to play NT in St. Louis are what caused them to move him. Talent wise this guy might be the most talented D-line guy on our roster. He was the #1 DT on virtually every draft list but fell because people thinking he might struggle with weight. But he's kept his weight down. He's run a 4.97 at 325 pounds. He's huge and extremely quick. IF Bates is all he's cracked up to be, it's highly possible he can turn this kid's talent into production. I'd much rather have superior talent and the possibility of a high ceiling than some UFA who might make the roster on guts alone but probably won't ever be special. I've seen enough of that. This kid has All Pro level talent. Will he utilize it? Maybe...maybe not...but who's to say he can't do it?

I keep hearing what a genius/miracle worker Bates is. If this is true, and if this kid has his head screwed on straight with a change of scenery and a fresh start...we could have a 7 year starter and a rock in the middle of our line. I sure wouldn't be hoping he fails...what's up with that? If we can somehow pull off getting a stud DT for a 6th...that's a huge advantage.

I can not believe you are going to this extent to call Jimmy Kennedy an "all-pro" talent and a hard Worker who just needs a chance with Bates to develop. Yet, an Actual All-Pro DT comes available in Kris Jenkins this offseason and every single argument you are making for Kennedy seems not to apply to him based on biased media character reports ???

So, let me get this straight. A guy who has never come close to realizing his potential in this league due to a multiple injury history, has known weight problem issues, and is replaced by a younger player after just four years suddenly is this great All-Pro in waiting with high character and tremendous work ethic? HUH? And Jenkins, who has been the top DT in the league based solely on field performance in 2003 and who rebounded from injury to play all 16 games last year is no longer a top 5-10 DT in the league based on a media smeer campaign by the Panthers to keep him at his current contract?

:notworthy

cmhargrove
06-11-2007, 11:23 AM
I think the Chargers' fans are nervous. Not because of Kennedy, but because Shanahan is making bold moves forward, and the Chargers (although still very loaded on talent) took a sideways move this year.

I'm not going to bash, but my view is that the Chargers know they could have as much upheaval (with major coaching changes) as the Broncos (major coaching + positional changes). Rivers has worn a boot on a damaged foot for much of the offseason, the receivers they have brought don't have much hype, and they're rooks (Davis & Naanee). Weddle could be exciting, but who knows how he will be utilized?

The Broncos organization has been much more active in their offseason, they are really working on a rebuild that will beat the Chargers, Colts, and Pats. The Chargers just don't know if last year was their peak, and they couldn't even win a playoff game. That's what's unsettling to Chargers fans.

For the future, now the Chargers must look at the draft and FA like the Broncos have for many years - with a winning record. It's much easier to pick up players like LT, Rivers, and Merriman when you have a losing record. You have been able to stockpile talent, but in all honesty it hasn't equated to offseason success. This will be a nerveracking season for Chargers fans...

fontaine
06-11-2007, 11:24 AM
I keep hearing what a genius/miracle worker Bates is. If this is true, and if this kid has his head screwed on straight with a change of scenery and a fresh start...we could have a 7 year starter and a rock in the middle of our line. I sure wouldn't be hoping he fails...what's up with that? If we can somehow pull off getting a stud DT for a 6th...that's a huge advantage.


Dude has had numerous D-Coaches to work with and you're putting it on Bates?

:giggle:

Bates can't turn turds to diamonds.

The Rams kept him on the team even though he was a bust. I just hope we don't make that same mistake. Scratch that, we won't because we don't have anything invested in the guy so we won't mollycoddle him.

If he does turn it around in one training camp, then great but if not the coaches won't waste any time on him.

fontaine
06-11-2007, 11:27 AM
I can not believe you are going to this extent to call Jimmy Kennedy an "all-pro" talent and a hard Worker who just needs a chance with Bates to develop. Yet, an Actual All-Pro DT comes available in Kris Jenkins this offseason and every single argument you are making for Kennedy seems not to apply to him based on biased media character reports ???

So, let me get this straight. A guy who has never come close to realizing his potential in this league due to a multiple injury history, has known weight problem issues, and is replaced by a younger player after just four years suddenly is this great All-Pro in waiting with high character and tremendous work ethic? HUH? And Jenkins, who has been the top DT in the league based solely on field performance in 2003 and who rebounded from injury to play all 16 games last year is no longer a top 5-10 DT in the league based on a media smeer campaign by the Panthers to keep him at his current contract?

:notworthy

Didn't you get the memo?

A bust by any other name is still a bust. Unless we just traded for him.

In that case he has all pro talent with a history of problems that had nothing to do with him.

It's good to know that our coaches don't give a second thought to that line of crap and will cut him if he continues to be a soft bust.

bendog
06-11-2007, 12:11 PM
The Culpepper speculation makes sense. I figured Linehan would wind up reunited with the Fat Kid eventually.

See, I really can't compare him to Warren, because Warren has had stretches of outstanding football, even in Cleveland. Kennedy has never done anything in the NFL. Many people expected him to be a bust coming out of school because he's just tremendously headstrong and lazy, which is a deadly combination. Its not like his current reputation developed out of nowhere. Besides that, he plays very, very soft for an interior lineman. He has no desire to be a two gap plugger (which we need), he fancies himself a one gap disruptor (which he isn't).

I would have felt a lot better if that sixth rounder was conditional on him making the team. We've got all these lineman on the roster, I hope we don't feel compelled to keep him over a more coachable and hungrier player just because of the investment in him.


Question: Is Bates' scheme based on two two-gap DT's on one two-gap and an under tackle, similar to what Tampa Bay used? I'm really not sure what a two two-gap would look like.

But if it involves the under tackle, this might work out. Big Fat and Thomas are slated as two-gapers, while Big Money has always wanted the under tackle role, and that seems to be what Kennedy wants.

ward63
06-11-2007, 12:28 PM
I can't wait to see just pre-season games to see how everybody performs out there. As somebody already said, if Warren isn't healthy, we could be seeing him leave, even if he restructured.

bronco militia
06-11-2007, 12:42 PM
I can't wait to see just pre-season games to see how everybody performs out there. As somebody already said, if Warren isn't healthy, we could be seeing him leave, even if he restructured.


warren already restructured

Paladin
06-11-2007, 01:28 PM
I have no real favorites among the DT candidates on the Bronco's roster at this point. My hope is that among the group, the best five or so prove out to be good upgrades with some potential for being a bit more aggressive and co some damage to the offensive plans of the opponents. I don't care if they are one or two gappers or even if they plug all that gaps with one guy, etc...... Just get the job done.

At the start of the draft, I had some hopes that Jenkins might have been a possible trade for the Broncos, but I am not unhappy the way this thing has worked out to date. I remember that guys hereon were just hoping to upgrade the Dline. The Broncos have done that. That is the message of this offseason: the Broncos have improved.

I agree that the sparky fams opf Sandy Eggo are yammering through a cocked-hats over the possibility that their team has lost the window in the West because Denver is moving in........

400HZ
06-11-2007, 01:37 PM
I think the Chargers' fans are nervous. Not because of Kennedy, but because Shanahan is making bold moves forward, and the Chargers (although still very loaded on talent) took a sideways move this year.

I'm not going to bash, but my view is that the Chargers know they could have as much upheaval (with major coaching changes) as the Broncos (major coaching + positional changes). Rivers has worn a boot on a damaged foot for much of the offseason, the receivers they have brought don't have much hype, and they're rooks (Davis & Naanee). Weddle could be exciting, but who knows how he will be utilized?

The Broncos organization has been much more active in their offseason, they are really working on a rebuild that will beat the Chargers, Colts, and Pats. The Chargers just don't know if last year was their peak, and they couldn't even win a playoff game. That's what's unsettling to Chargers fans.

For the future, now the Chargers must look at the draft and FA like the Broncos have for many years - with a winning record. It's much easier to pick up players like LT, Rivers, and Merriman when you have a losing record. You have been able to stockpile talent, but in all honesty it hasn't equated to offseason success. This will be a nerveracking season for Chargers fans...

The Chargers and Broncos have different methods for improving their team. The course in San Diego has been to draft well and then let those guys develop and lock them up longterm. Like I said before, the leading factor of a 9-7 to 14-2 improvement last year was young guys improving their game. Even coming off a disappointing 9-7 year there were hardly any FA moves. I personally prefer that to bringing in a new group of retreads every season, and I think the talent of our roster shows that it's a good approach.

You can obviously throw that draft position dig around since it's true, but SD had fantastic drafts in 05 and 06 as well after 12-4 and 9-7 seasons.

You have been able to stockpile talent, but in all honesty it hasn't equated to offseason success

You don't find out how successful or bad your offseason was until the offseason is over. The offseason champs often end up as the regular season dogs.

bendog
06-11-2007, 01:43 PM
You don't find out how successful or bad your offseason was until the offseason is over. The offseason champs often end up as the regular season dogs.
--
umm, then why are you posting here?

400HZ
06-11-2007, 01:51 PM
You don't find out how successful or bad your offseason was until the offseason is over. The offseason champs often end up as the regular season dogs.
--
umm, then why are you posting here?

Because it's fun to talk about.

bendog
06-11-2007, 01:55 PM
That's nice, but why don't you start a thread "We're better than you, even though I'm talking out my ass," and let us get on with discussing how Kennedy fits the scheme, and why shanny gave up a 6 for him?

cmhargrove
06-11-2007, 02:00 PM
The Chargers and Broncos have different methods for improving their team. The course in San Diego has been to draft well and then let those guys develop and lock them up longterm. Like I said before, the leading factor of a 9-7 to 14-2 improvement last year was young guys improving their game. Even coming off a disappointing 9-7 year there were hardly any FA moves. I personally prefer that to bringing in a new group of retreads every season, and I think the talent of our roster shows that it's a good approach.

You can obviously throw that draft position dig around since it's true, but SD had fantastic drafts in 05 and 06 as well after 12-4 and 9-7 seasons.



You don't find out how successful or bad your offseason was until the offseason is over. The offseason champs often end up as the regular season dogs.

So by your logic, the Broncos will have a better season that the Chargers this year? Do you really feel the Chargers will do better than the Colts or Pats (where it counts, in the offseason)? It is your job as a fan to be optimistic about your team, but you must also look at real facts.

Our biggest fact: Cutler has a losing record. However, he looks like he has the ability to shoulder the team if given the opportunity, time will tell.

Your biggest fact: You had the best record in the NFL, you had the best running back (hands down) with a record shattering year. However, you couldn't win a single playoff game. Time will tell.

It should be a fun battle for the top of the AFC West.

400HZ
06-11-2007, 02:02 PM
That's nice, but why don't you start a thread "We're better than you, even though I'm talking out my ass," and let us get on with discussing how Kennedy fits the scheme, and why shanny gave up a 6 for him?

Go ahead.

footstepsfrom#27
06-12-2007, 04:32 AM
I can not believe you are going to this extent to call Jimmy Kennedy an "all-pro" talent and a hard Worker who just needs a chance with Bates to develop. Yet, an Actual All-Pro DT comes available in Kris Jenkins this offseason and every single argument you are making for Kennedy seems not to apply to him based on biased media character reports ???

So, let me get this straight. A guy who has never come close to realizing his potential in this league due to a multiple injury history, has known weight problem issues, and is replaced by a younger player after just four years suddenly is this great All-Pro in waiting with high character and tremendous work ethic? HUH? And Jenkins, who has been the top DT in the league based solely on field performance in 2003 and who rebounded from injury to play all 16 games last year is no longer a top 5-10 DT in the league based on a media smeer campaign by the Panthers to keep him at his current contract?

:notworthy
Well Shanny obviously doesn't agree with you.

Incidently, I didn't say Kennedy was All Pro...I said he has that kind of talent, which he does. He's a better buy than Jenkins...oberve:

1) Jenkiins would cost a #1 or at best a #2...Kennedy cost a 6th.
2) Jenkins has had two fairly serious injuries that caused him to miss almost 2 full seasons, and some think his play has suffered since. Kennedy's had injuries, but nothing as serious as Jenkins, and except for his broken foot, he's played through them.
3) Jenkins has a drinking problem that has impacted his preparation to be on the field. Kennedy doesn't drink at all.
4) Jenkins struggles with his weight every year. Kennedy's had his weight under control since he came to the pros, and demonstrated willingness in college to do what was necessary to make his weight.
5) Jenkins doesn't want to show up for off season conditioning. Kennedy rises before dawn daily to work out.
6) Jenkins cost several times more money than Kennedy.

Huge, quick, young, high character, high motor, limited injury history, cheap contract, fits the Bates system, has had some problems adjusting but obviously has big upside if he can find himself a home here.

thumpc
06-12-2007, 04:49 AM
I hear we're going after Shaun Rogers.

cutthemdown
06-12-2007, 06:54 AM
I hear we're going after Shaun Rogers.

Yeah, I bet we are offering him 3 strippers and a .45 as a signing bonus.

cutthemdown
06-12-2007, 07:06 AM
[QUOTE=400HZ;1612875]The Chargers and Broncos have different methods for improving their team. The course in San Diego has been to draft well and then let those guys develop and lock them up longterm. Like I said before, the leading factor of a 9-7 to 14-2 improvement last year was young guys improving their game. Even coming off a disappointing 9-7 year there were hardly any FA moves. I personally prefer that to bringing in a new group of retreads every season, and I think the talent of our roster shows that it's a good approach.

You can obviously throw that draft position dig around since it's true, but SD had fantastic drafts in 05 and 06 as well after 12-4 and 9-7 seasons.



Broncos believe in coaching stability and Chargers really don't. I also think the reason they build through the draft and not through FA is because Spanos is sort of cheap. It has paid off for them with some good drafts though I agree. But really nfl success is measured in Superbowl wins. The Broncos haven't won since Elway this is true but overall they have more stability then the Dolts, more wins, more rings, more division crowns, more afc championships. Did I miss anything? I have no reason to think that soon Broncos will be back on top of the Dolts because of the fact the stick with a good coach instead of waffling back and forth.

boltaneer
06-12-2007, 07:35 AM
Broncos believe in coaching stability and Chargers really don't.

That is an utterly ridiculous statement. All NFL teams would love to have stability in their coaches and their rosters but that can't always happen. All Raider jokes aside, do you think the Raiders are firing head coaches year after year because it's something they believe in? Obviously, they're going through a lot of struggles in Oakland and they're still looking for the right person who can lead them out of it.

If a head coach just isn't working out, then you let them go and get someone else, who will hopefully be better.

Yes, that's coaching instability, but it's a necessary evil when you have an incompetent head coach. When you see potential in a coach, then you can give them a couple of years to let them rebuild a team. When a coach is just utterly clueless like the ones that were here before Marty, you have to fire them and try something different.

You can blame ownership/management/whoever for the poor decision making for hiring a bad coach, which in turn leads to a coaching change but that does not equate to a philosophy of wanting coaching instability. Give me a break!

Marty brought a lot of stability to a team that desperately needed it and was able to help rebuild the team. Now, they're looking at Norv as someone who can take the team to the next level. I agree that Norv doesn't seem like the ideal candidate to do that but we'll see what happens in the upcoming season(s).

thumpc
06-12-2007, 07:55 AM
The Dolts employ a 4 coach/decade rotation, its the scheme.

boltaneer
06-12-2007, 07:59 AM
I also think the reason they build through the draft and not through FA is because Spanos is sort of cheap. It has paid off for them with some good drafts though I agree.

This is another puzzling statement.

Yes, you build your team through the draft. All teams do this. Well, except for the Redskins.

The reason the Chargers have shifted to building through the draft in recent years is because of AJ Smith, not Spanos. The Chargers spent on free agents just like any other team before AJ Smith came here. And the Chargers had to often spend more because they were a poor team then. Look at what the Arizona Cardinals have to overpay players like Edge.

AJ brought in a number of free agents in 2004: Randal Godfrey, Mike Goff, Steve Foley, Clinton Hart and was even more aggressive by trading for Roman Oben and Keenan McCardell. He later signed Jue and McCree and traded for Manumaleuna and Volek. It's not a ton of activity but he'll make moves when he finds somebody who he wants.

Once AJ felt that he had a team that he was mostly pleased with after the 2004 season, that's when you saw his free agency activity decline. And while I guess technically it's not considered a free agent transaction, Kris Dielman was one of the bigger signings of this offseason.

If he sees a player that he doesn't want to lose and extends his contract a year early such as the case with Shaun Phillips a few months ago, I see nothing wrong with that strategy even though it causes him to avoid seeking a replacement for that player in free agency next year. That's a VERY good thing, especially when that player takes a bit of a discount to stay with the team, such as Dielman and Phillips did.

bendog
06-12-2007, 11:15 AM
I'm still curious about how Kennedy fits Bates' scheme and how Big Money will be utilized. With the impact of the five and three step drops, and the ability of guys like Brady and esp Manning to go no huddle and prevent defenses from swapping personnel, having defensive tackles who don't get much push and who need lots of rotating (Sam Adams) is curious.

Atlas
06-12-2007, 11:22 AM
I'm still curious about how Kennedy fits Bates' scheme and how Big Money will be utilized. With the impact of the five and three step drops, and the ability of guys like Brady and esp Manning to go no huddle and prevent defenses from swapping personnel, having defensive tackles who don't get much push and who need lots of rotating (Sam Adams) is curious.

DTs in genral don't get sacks. what you ask of them is to stop the run and push back the OL on pass situations so the QB can't step up into the pocket. Great DTs will make your DEs pro Bowlers

bendog
06-12-2007, 11:39 AM
Well, yeah, but did Bates have good DT's in Mia? And does he use two tw0-gappers, or the one two-gap and an under tackle?

Adams is obviously a two gap nose tackle type, and my understanding of the scouting was that Thomas is as well. Warren can play two gap, but has said he wants to play UT. Warren played prolly more snaps than even the linebackers last year, but Adams can't stand up to that. Kennedy apparantly fell out of favor in St. Louis because he was unwilling to be the two-gap plugger who keeps offensive linemen off of the linebackers. If Den's gonna utilize him differently than St. Louis, then there's really no reason to criticize the trade. The guy was just unhappy, like Big Money was with the turdblossoms, and there's no real character issues like there were with IHOP and that criminal corner from KC. But, if they traded for an unhappy player and plan to keep doing what made him unhappy, the trade's questionable, imo, unless they've somehow convinced him it's fun to get beat on by a guard and center every play.

As I recall, Bates' major "innovation" in Mia was getting Jason Taylor to become an effective run stopper. The guy's too light for the traditionaly strong side DE, but he's obviously a top-tier performer at the position.

fontaine
06-12-2007, 11:54 AM
Kennedy apparantly fell out of favor in St. Louis because he was unwilling to be the two-gap plugger who keeps offensive linemen off of the linebackers. If Den's gonna utilize him differently than St. Louis, then there's really no reason to criticize the trade. The guy was just unhappy, like Big Money was with the turdblossoms, and there's no real character issues like there were with IHOP and that criminal corner from KC.

I don't think that was the case. Kennedy played UT initially and was a bust there, but to his credit did flash some rare ability at times.

Haslett played him as a NT then when he came to the Rams as D-Coach and Kennedy sucked there as well.

bendog
06-12-2007, 12:23 PM
Well, at least he doesn't appear to be a cancerous criminal thug. (-:

DeuceOfClub
06-12-2007, 02:05 PM
The Chargers and Broncos have different methods for improving their team.

Very true.

While the Broncos attempt every year to put themselves in a position to win the Superbowl the Chargers are hoping they can catch some “draft-lightning-in-a-bottle” and win some games.

How else can you explain hiring of HCs with an obvious glass-ceiling?


Why not dealing your backup RB or your first-day draft picks for a good WR or a CB?
The window isn’t getting bigger every season. You won’t find suckers like the Falcons or the Giants every year.
Maybe they are hoping to compete for Cowher services next year? (Will be tough fighting with the Redskins / Chiefs and other, especially if the stadium issue is not resolved)

I fully expect the Chargers to repeat their 2005 campaign. As for the Broncos, time will tell. If Cutler is the real deal will be winning 10+ games as long as Shanahan is here and will probably be in the SB sooner than later. If he is a bust than I’m sure we’ll see an aggressive attempt to replace him.

Mediator12
06-12-2007, 02:10 PM
Well Shanny obviously doesn't agree with you.

Incidently, I didn't say Kennedy was All Pro...I said he has that kind of talent, which he does. He's a better buy than Jenkins...oberve:

1) Jenkiins would cost a #1 or at best a #2...Kennedy cost a 6th.
2) Jenkins has had two fairly serious injuries that caused him to miss almost 2 full seasons, and some think his play has suffered since. Kennedy's had injuries, but nothing as serious as Jenkins, and except for his broken foot, he's played through them.
3) Jenkins has a drinking problem that has impacted his preparation to be on the field. Kennedy doesn't drink at all.
4) Jenkins struggles with his weight every year. Kennedy's had his weight under control since he came to the pros, and demonstrated willingness in college to do what was necessary to make his weight.
5) Jenkins doesn't want to show up for off season conditioning. Kennedy rises before dawn daily to work out.
6) Jenkins cost several times more money than Kennedy.

Huge, quick, young, high character, high motor, limited injury history, cheap contract, fits the Bates system, has had some problems adjusting but obviously has big upside if he can find himself a home here.

Your whole argument is completely based on value and DEN just picked up a sixth round value DT that has never been even solid as a DT in four seasons in the NFL. You get what you pay for, and occasionally you get a great value. I hope that is the case with Kennedy, but all your character references fail to produce even an argument that this kid is just a solid player. He has produced below average results on the field.

My point is that DEN has wasted so many resources in trying to obtain quality DL players the last four years, having 34 different players on the DL in the last four seasons making trades for lower talent level DL like Anton Palepoi, Ellis Johnson, John Engleberger, Gerrard Warren and Ekuban, and now Kennedy. I want to see them make a great trade and acquire top end DL talent instead of throwing crap against the wall with aging veterans on the decline and bust reclaimation projects.

Here is a list of some of those additions: Raylee Johnson, Marco Coleman, Luther Ellis, Darius Holland, Mario Fatefahi, Courtney Brown, Michael Myers, Daryl Gardener, Kenard Lang, and Demetrin Veal. These guys all have Started and played significant roles on the DL since 2003. That does not include Bert Berry who was the one guy who has been a solid addition as a FA DL pickup since he was acquired in 2001. It also does not include draft picks and players like Montae Reagor, Monsanto Pope, and Reggie Heyward who were at least quality starters. It also fails to mention the draft picks since 2002 who never made it like Dorsett Davis, Bryant McNeal, Nick Eason, Aaron Hunt, and Clint Mitchell. Or, the UDFA's that have made the 53 man roster like Antwon Burton and others not worth mentioning at this point.

Call me crazy for not being invigorated about Kennedy as another in the HUGE list of formerly worthless players Shanahan has acquired in the last four years to play cones for opposing OL during games. His history of poor DL selections for this team clearly speaks for itself. Denver has consistently placed a subpar DL on the field since 1999, with 2003 the last year they had an average to above average DL.

400HZ
06-12-2007, 02:35 PM
Very true.

While the Broncos attempt every year to put themselves in a position to win the Superbowl the Chargers are hoping they can catch some “draft-lightning-in-a-bottle” and win some games.

How else can you explain hiring of HCs with an obvious glass-ceiling?


Why not dealing your backup RB or your first-day draft picks for a good WR or a CB?
The window isn’t getting bigger every season. You won’t find suckers like the Falcons or the Giants every year.
Maybe they are hoping to compete for Cowher services next year? (Will be tough fighting with the Redskins / Chiefs and other, especially if the stadium issue is not resolved)

I fully expect the Chargers to repeat their 2005 campaign. As for the Broncos, time will tell. If Cutler is the real deal will be winning 10+ games as long as Shanahan is here and will probably be in the SB sooner than later. If he is a bust than I’m sure we’ll see an aggressive attempt to replace him.

Calling the success that AJ Smith has had in the draft 'lightening in a bottle' is a bunch of bs.

Turner would have been dealt if a team had been willing to give SD what he was worth. Having a high quality insurance policy, top 5 kick returner, and most likely a 3rd round comp pick isn't a bad scenario. That's why Tennessee's 2nd rounder wasn't enough.

Maybe Shanahan would have Herschell Walkered our draft to try and get a receiver or something, but just cuz Shanahan would do it doesn't make it a good idea. AJ Smith's approach hasn't won a Superbowl yet, but it has the team headed in the right direction. There has been high quality talent added to the roster every draft. Home-grown talent is cheaper talent, and that's what enables Smith to have a roster with 9 probowlers on it. It might take a few years to really put everything together, but this team IS going to win Championships. Smith is also going to continue drafting well and keeping the roster loaded. Shanahan is going to keep bringing in retreads and busts hoping to get a good year or two out of them. That's fine, let Shanahan do things his way and let Smith do his thing.

Atlas
06-12-2007, 07:13 PM
Your whole argument is completely based on value and DEN just picked up a sixth round value DT that has never been even solid as a DT in four seasons in the NFL. You get what you pay for, and occasionally you get a great value. I hope that is the case with Kennedy, but all your character references fail to produce even an argument that this kid is just a solid player. He has produced below average results on the field.

.

He had more tackles last year than ANY DL on the Broncos roster.

bendog
06-12-2007, 07:25 PM
I think Myers had 37 to Kennedy's 32 or 33, but you are right. His stats don't suck as bad as some of the guys we had. McKinley had like 40plus tackles too

cutthemdown
06-12-2007, 07:34 PM
That is an utterly ridiculous statement. All NFL teams would love to have stability in their coaches and their rosters but that can't always happen. All Raider jokes aside, do you think the Raiders are firing head coaches year after year because it's something they believe in? Obviously, they're going through a lot of struggles in Oakland and they're still looking for the right person who can lead them out of it.

If a head coach just isn't working out, then you let them go and get someone else, who will hopefully be better.

Yes, that's coaching instability, but it's a necessary evil when you have an incompetent head coach. When you see potential in a coach, then you can give them a couple of years to let them rebuild a team. When a coach is just utterly clueless like the ones that were here before Marty, you have to fire them and try something different.

You can blame ownership/management/whoever for the poor decision making for hiring a bad coach, which in turn leads to a coaching change but that does not equate to a philosophy of wanting coaching instability. Give me a break!

Marty brought a lot of stability to a team that desperately needed it and was able to help rebuild the team. Now, they're looking at Norv as someone who can take the team to the next level. I agree that Norv doesn't seem like the ideal candidate to do that but we'll see what happens in the upcoming season(s).


Teams like Pitt/Den commit to a coach and stick with him in good or bad time, knowing in the end you are better off with stability. The Chargers haven't really been like that. You would never see any team that values stability fire a coach after a 14-2 season. Stable teams that are in it to win don't do things like that. Owners who are more concerned with making or saving money will do it though. IE Chargers.

400HZ
06-12-2007, 07:57 PM
Teams like Pitt/Den commit to a coach and stick with him in good or bad time, knowing in the end you are better off with stability. The Chargers haven't really been like that. You would never see any team that values stability fire a coach after a 14-2 season. Stable teams that are in it to win don't do things like that. Owners who are more concerned with making or saving money will do it though. IE Chargers.

Have we had a coach worth sticking with through good or bad? Do you think Marty was that coach? I'm gonna have to disagree.

Houshyamama
06-12-2007, 08:03 PM
You don't find out how successful or bad your offseason was until the offseason is over. The offseason champs often end up as the regular season dogs.

They OFTEN do, do they? Lets not go over board here, not every team is the Redskins.

Mediator12
06-12-2007, 08:15 PM
He had more tackles last year than ANY DL on the Broncos roster.

That is not saying Much ;D

Seriously, to compare Kennedy to our league bottom five DT rotation of the last two years is a pretty worthless comparison. He fits into the underachiever mold for sure. As has been proven ad Hominem as well, tackle stats are a worthless indicator of performance. He has been well below average on the field until last year when he was just average at best.

I want an at least good DT and Marcus Thomas may be that guy. I just doubt that Kennedy is anything more than a lateral talent move that fits the scheme for the third season in a row.

boltaneer
06-12-2007, 08:44 PM
Teams like Pitt/Den commit to a coach and stick with him in good or bad time, knowing in the end you are better off with stability. The Chargers haven't really been like that. You would never see any team that values stability fire a coach after a 14-2 season. Stable teams that are in it to win don't do things like that. Owners who are more concerned with making or saving money will do it though. IE Chargers.

Please. Don't even comment on the Chargers unless you know what you're talking about. I'm usually very patient even during arguments but you continue to spew out misinformation at a record rate.

Marty wasn't fired because of money. This was a result of AJ Smith. At this point AJ has so much power here that he was able to get his way. AJ has provided the team with the talent. The coaching staff is the one that did not hold up their end of the deal.

But the demise of Marty was a result of a power struggle, not anything to do with money.

KC committed to Marty for ten years and San Diego committed to him for five. Though he never got to the Super Bowl, he was certainly great for the Chiefs, as he was for the Chargers.

But were the Chargers really stupid to let him go this year or did they figure it out in half the time that the Chiefs did?

You referenced the Steelers in your post. The Steelers stuck with Cowher but it took him fourteen years to finally win the Super Bowl. KC gave Marty ten years and he couldn't do it. And then he couldn't do it in five years in San Diego with a better team. Were KC and San Diego both foolish to let Marty go? Did he need four more years with KC or nine more with SD to finally win one? What if it didn't happen then? Do they give him five more years? Fourteen more years? Let him be HC until he dies?

I think Jeff Fisher is a great coach. He came about as close as you can to winning a Super Bowl but failing. I just don't see him ever doing it in Tennessee but he's been there twelve years. If you were Tennessee, how much more time do you give him? Maybe Vince Young is what he needs to finallly do it but how much time does Young need? He's still a very raw QB. How much more time do you give him win a Super Bowl? Do you give him six more years, which would make eighteen altogether? That is an unheard of amount of time to give a head coach in today's NFL. Cowher's case was a very rare one. That's not the norm for the the way the league is run these days.

400HZ
06-12-2007, 08:59 PM
They OFTEN do, do they? Lets not go over board here, not every team is the Redskins.

Miami was another big winner last year. So was Dallas. Cleveland. Arizona.

cutthemdown
06-12-2007, 09:14 PM
Have a hissy fit somewhere else. I'm talking Chargers going way back not just this coaching change. There was a power struggle between Smith and Shottenhiemer. I would bet my kidney that Spanos made the decision based more on business then he did football. To resign all those hot coaching commodities would cost money, hiring Turner is cheap. Firing Smith means maybe having to spend more money in FA since the new GM may not be as good at the draft. Schottenhiemer also probably was making more then Turner is now. I can almost garauntee the Chargers are spending less this year on coaching then they did last year.

cutthemdown
06-12-2007, 09:15 PM
Dolts Are Cheap Cheap Cheap Cheap Cheap Cheap!!!!!!!!

400HZ
06-12-2007, 09:19 PM
Dolts Are Cheap Cheap Cheap Cheap Cheap Cheap!!!!!!!!

You're an idiot.

RkyMtnThunder
06-12-2007, 09:23 PM
Have a hissy fit somewhere else. I'm talking Chargers going way back not just this coaching change. There was a power struggle between Smith and Shottenhiemer. I would bet my kidney that Spanos made the decision based more on business then he did football. To resign all those hot coaching commodities would cost money, hiring Turner is cheap. Firing Smith means maybe having to spend more money in FA since the new GM may not be as good at the draft. Schottenhiemer also probably was making more then Turner is now. I can almost garauntee the Chargers are spending less this year on coaching then they did last year.



I think you are right. I cant comment on the assistants, but Marty was in the area of $4mil per while Turner will see just over $3mil.

But the overall coaching related salary expenses for the Chargers will increase this year as Marty's final $4mil is still on the books.

footstepsfrom#27
06-12-2007, 09:28 PM
Your whole argument is completely based on value and DEN just picked up a sixth round value DT that has never been even solid as a DT in four seasons in the NFL. You get what you pay for, and occasionally you get a great value. I hope that is the case with Kennedy, but all your character references fail to produce even an argument that this kid is just a solid player. He has produced below average results on the field.
And all of your statements to this effect fail to even give cursory consideration to the fact that there are extenuating circumstances here. You're acting like this guy flat out stunk, that he couldn't even get out of his own way. The fact is he's flashed brilliance upon occasion, he's around the ball fairly consistently, and he's been REASONABLY productive...he just hasn't been Warren Sapp. That's the primary beef with him...he hasn't lived up to what people thought he was when he was drafted. Let me ask you a question...isn't it barely possible that having 3 different coaches, each one trying to utilize him differently, one year as an NT and the next as a DT... COMBINED WITH 3 injures...has impacted his play on the field? At least give the guy credit for STAYING ON THE FIELD. The only time he's missed was half a season for his broken foot, which was expected to be an entire year. He had a hernia for crying out loud...yet he played with it. It's not like he was 100% healthy and had consistent coaching philosophy that he was working with. Everyone knows D-line guys, especially DT's...take some time to develop. So his rookie year was hardly a surprise...he sat on the bench. In year two he broke his foot...tough to criticize him for that either. Years 3 and 4 he actually had decent production, but people expected him to dominate and he didn't. Maybe part of that was not being on the field enough to learn the game prior to this, and part might have been the injuries he had or the coaching changes...the point is, there ARE other circumstances here to consider before you just arbitrarily say he sucks.
My point is that DEN has wasted so many resources in trying to obtain quality DL players the last four years, having 34 different players on the DL in the last four seasons making trades for lower talent level DL like Anton Palepoi, Ellis Johnson, John Engleberger, Gerrard Warren and Ekuban, and now Kennedy. I want to see them make a great trade and acquire top end DL talent instead of throwing crap against the wall with aging veterans on the decline and bust reclaimation projects.
Dude...nobody in here has made this exact point more than me, and I've been roundly criticized for it, so you're preaching to the choir and telling me nothing I don't already know. But in THIS CASE, I think there's reason for optimism. Most of those guys you listed were either marginally talented to begin with or on the back stretch of their careers when they got here. Neither is the case here. He's 26 years old...he could play 10 more years. He's basically healthy now, has major talent, and as I just showed you, he HAS had some success despite your attempts to show overwise. The dude cost us a measly 6th rounder...all I'm saying is this is "potentially" a nice move because we've given Bates some nice talent to work with. Six weeks ago we had one guy who fit the Bates scheme at DT...now we have 4. Total cost to do this?...3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th rounders. We'd probably have gotten one average player out of all that. At least we now have guys who fit the profile he's looking for.

Houshyamama
06-12-2007, 09:35 PM
Miami was another big winner last year. So was Dallas. Cleveland. Arizona.

Save Dallas, those teams all sucked to begin with.

boltaneer
06-12-2007, 10:05 PM
I'm talking Chargers going way back not just this coaching change.

Okay, if we're not talkinga bout Marty, what coaching change outside of Bobby Ross hasn't been warranted? Coryell maybe but his team missed their window of opportunity and the team was heading in a different direction.

Everyone after Coryell and between Ross and Marty were completely terrible. There was no justification for giving any of those stiffs any more time for your so-called "stability".

Like I said before, you can blame ownership/management for their head coaching hires but you can't blame them for firing a head coach who is not performing.

I would bet my kidney that Spanos made the decision based more on business then he did football. To resign all those hot coaching commodities would cost money, hiring Turner is cheap.

Who are these hot coaching commodities you think the Chargers should have resigned? Cameron? Phillips? You can't prohibit them from interviewing for head coaching positions. The position coaches that were lost? Their contracts didn't run out. They weren't fired. They went to higher positions on other teams. You can't blame them for that. And you can't blame ownership for that. That's just the way you climb the ranks in the NFL.


Firing Smith means maybe having to spend more money in FA since the new GM may not be as good at the draft.

Um. Isn't that what you want in your GM? Someone who can recognize talent and find the best way to get that talent on your team financially?

The Chargers gave out big bucks to Dielman and Phillips this year instead of going the free agency route. You need to understand that resigning your homegrown talent is not a bad thing.

Schottenhiemer also probably was making more then Turner is now. I can almost garauntee the Chargers are spending less this year on coaching then they did last year.

Marty was making $5 million/year. Turner is making $3 million/year. Marty is a much more established coach, with more head coaching experience so he's going to command a higher salary.

Bobby Petrino got a 5 year/$24 million contract, which seems too high to me but still less than Marty. But find me a head coach who was hired this offseason who is making more than Marty did.

Turner: $3 million
Cameron: $2.5 million
Whisenhunt: $2.5 million
Tomlin: $2.5 million
Kiffin: $2 million

boltaneer
06-12-2007, 10:09 PM
Dolts Are Cheap Cheap Cheap Cheap Cheap Cheap!!!!!!!!

You're an idiot.

Well, when you find yourself losing in an argument, I guess it's natural to revert back to an eight year old mentality.

RkyMtnThunder
06-12-2007, 10:20 PM
[QUOTE=boltaneer;1614612]Okay, if we're not talkinga bout Marty, what coaching change outside of Bobby Ross hasn't been warranted? Coryell maybe but his team missed their window of opportunity and the team was heading in a different direction.

Everyone after Coryell and between Ross and Marty were completely terrible. There was no justification for giving any of those stiffs any more time for your so-called "stability".

Like I said before, you can blame ownership/management for their head coaching hires but you can't blame them for firing a head coach who is not performing.
/QUOTE]



WOAH


Tell us exactly how many times SD has gone 14-2?

Not performing - whatever guy.


It was a personality conflict pure and simple. AJ's head is too big for his own good IMO

I am not saying Marty would have lead your team to the promise land this season - but if you like Turner's chances to do better than Marty you are really a :homer: cause Turner has never even come close to the success Marty has.


And honestly - with San Diego's overall franchise history - you have no room to discuss 'stability'. Its been a roller coaster for 40 years! With far more down years than not. You act like your franchise is a model of consistency.

boltaneer
06-12-2007, 10:24 PM
WOAH

Tell us exactly how many times SD has gone 14-2?

Not performing - whatever guy.

It was a personality conflict pure and simple. AJ's head is too big for his own good IMO

I am not saying Marty would have lead your team to the promise land this season - but if you like Turner's chances to do better than Marty you have really chugged AJs nut cause Turner has never even come close to the success Marty has.

I see a lot of reading comprehension problems here recently.

Please read that entire post again. The portion you are responding to was a discussion not regarding the Marty/AJ feud.

And where in the world did I say those things about Norv Turner?

cutthemdown
06-12-2007, 10:51 PM
Here's another example of what is really important to alex spanos. He even gave more to George Bushes election then he did for his head coach.

Spanos was also the recipient of the AHEPA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AHEPA) Award, the prestigious awards to recognize members of the community for their contributions and achievements in their chosen field of endeavor. Spanos was also one of the largest contributors to George W. Bush (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush)'s campaign in 2004. By contributing $5 million to 527 groups that supported the Bush campaign in 2004, Spanos ranked among the top five GOP donors. President Bush appointed Spanos to the Kennedy Center board in 2004.

cutthemdown
06-12-2007, 11:01 PM
To keep Cameron as OC all Chargers would have had to do is what Skins do. Pay him 3 mil to be OC and say we are giving Marty one more yr, you get to be HC after next yr. Then you keep Marty because he was 14-2. Maybe Phillips still leaves Cotrell is a good coach. But IMO Spanos would never do that why waste the money for a football team is his thinking. Also he wouldn't bother because to do that he would have to step on AJ Smith. Unfortunatly coaching is not overrated and AJ Smiths move of Marty out Turner in is quite possibly the worst coaching switch ever. I'm not even talking playoff wins this and that, marty hasn't done well there. I'm just talking from being a fan and having watched both coaches teams play. Turner coached teams often lack discipline. He's way better suited to being the second in command from the O coord spot. Cameron to me has done a great job with no good wr the last 5 yr in SD. They even crap canned his starting qb because AJ SMith liked Phillips. By the way I think Brees is just as good as Phillips if not more saavy. I wouldn't say all Smiths moves are golden to this point. Roidman worked out, he got a good kicker, grabbed a couple good olineman, found a gem in Gates, found some good players all in all through draft I agree. But not getting anything for Brees was bad. Maybe they didn't need Phillips because Brees was good. They could have used that pick differently and kept Brees. Broncos got more for Plummer then you guys did for Brees. That's just crazy. Chargers had already used the tag on him so tagging him agian would have gauranteed Brees the money. Instead they gambled he wouldnt heal and they lost. NO got him for squat.

boltaneer
06-12-2007, 11:10 PM
Here's another example of what is really important to alex spanos. He even gave more to George Bushes election then he did for his head coach.

Spanos was also the recipient of the AHEPA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AHEPA) Award, the prestigious awards to recognize members of the community for their contributions and achievements in their chosen field of endeavor. Spanos was also one of the largest contributors to George W. Bush (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush)'s campaign in 2004. By contributing $5 million to 527 groups that supported the Bush campaign in 2004, Spanos ranked among the top five GOP donors. President Bush appointed Spanos to the Kennedy Center board in 2004.

So are you saying that he should pay Norv $5+ million?

I don't understand the point of this post.

cutthemdown
06-12-2007, 11:12 PM
So are you saying that he should pay Norv $5+ million?

I don't understand the point of this post.

Mongo no understand large words or complex thoughts. Mongo just pawn in game of life.

boltaneer
06-12-2007, 11:14 PM
To keep Cameron as OC all Chargers would have had to do is what Skins do. Pay him 3 mil to be OC and say we are giving Marty one more yr, you get to be HC after next yr. Then you keep Marty because he was 14-2. Maybe Phillips still leaves Cotrell is a good coach. But IMO Spanos would never do that why waste the money for a football team is his thinking. Also he wouldn't bother because to do that he would have to step on AJ Smith. Unfortunatly coaching is not overrated and AJ Smiths move of Marty out Turner in is quite possibly the worst coaching switch ever. I'm not even talking playoff wins this and that, marty hasn't done well there. I'm just talking from being a fan and having watched both coaches teams play. Turner coached teams often lack discipline. He's way better suited to being the second in command from the O coord spot. Cameron to me has done a great job with no good wr the last 5 yr in SD. They even crap canned his starting qb because AJ SMith liked Phillips. By the way I think Brees is just as good as Phillips if not more saavy. I wouldn't say all Smiths moves are golden to this point. Roidman worked out, he got a good kicker, grabbed a couple good olineman, found a gem in Gates, found some good players all in all through draft I agree. But not getting anything for Brees was bad. Maybe they didn't need Phillips because Brees was good. They could have used that pick differently and kept Brees. Broncos got more for Plummer then you guys did for Brees. That's just crazy. Chargers had already used the tag on him so tagging him agian would have gauranteed Brees the money. Instead they gambled he wouldnt heal and they lost. NO got him for squat.

It was Marty's decision to play Brees in the 'meaningless' final game of the season, so you can put a lot of this blame on Marty for losing Brees.

Rivers is AJ's guy. Brees wasn't. It is a gamble but Brees has hit his ceiling. Rivers has a much higher upside and he is already doing things that Brees cannot.

cutthemdown
06-12-2007, 11:16 PM
So are you saying that he should pay Norv $5+ million?

I don't understand the point of this post.

no maybe he could have used it to get a better coach then Turner. That's what I mean. Tell AJ Smith to make a deal with Pitt, give up a draft pick, and then offer Cowher 10 million a year to coach the team. Or try and lure Pete Carrol out of USC. Not that I'm convinced Carrol is worth all the hype but we know Turner Isn't. I sure hope he got his 5 millions worth from Georgie Boy. I mean he is a top 5 Georgie boy donor, that's pretty good. Much more impressive then hiring Norv the snore Turner.

cutthemdown
06-12-2007, 11:19 PM
It was Marty's decision to play Brees in the 'meaningless' final game of the season, so you can put a lot of this blame on Marty for losing Brees.

Rivers is AJ's guy. Brees wasn't. It is a gamble but Brees has hit his ceiling. Rivers has a much higher upside and he is already doing things that Brees cannot.

Marty only played Brees because if he won he got a bonus for 10 wins. A good owner would say hey heres the bonus, don't play the QB. Instead Spanos decided to try and save the money and the result was Marty tried to win the game. 10 wins was important enough to the owner to put it in the contract for marty to reach. Marty being the guy he is a competitor went for it. Spanos and Smith sat back and watched. Brees got hurt, Marty didn't get his bonus, the real losers were Brees and the fans of SD.

cutthemdown
06-12-2007, 11:20 PM
Game, Set, Match!!!!!!!

cutthemdown
06-12-2007, 11:21 PM
Checkered Flag

cutthemdown
06-12-2007, 11:25 PM
Poor Dolts fans only have a few more weeks to relish the might AFC WEST crown. Applause Applause. It was there 7th which really isn't too bad. I mean Broncos only have 10 which is only 30 percent better. Thank god for even numbers!! Then agian we do have that Superbowl run off that wildcard spot. I'd say that counts aa 11. Chiefs fans probably would argue that point because that's the closest they have come to winning a playoff game since Len Dawson could get it up. Anyways soon you will see the predictable Dolt collapse that follows every good year. They won't be total crap but no way do they get 14 wins. No way not with Turner coaching.

boltaneer
06-12-2007, 11:57 PM
no maybe he could have used it to get a better coach then Turner. That's what I mean. Tell AJ Smith to make a deal with Pitt, give up a draft pick, and then offer Cowher 10 million a year to coach the team. Or try and lure Pete Carrol out of USC. Not that I'm convinced Carrol is worth all the hype but we know Turner Isn't. I sure hope he got his 5 millions worth from Georgie Boy. I mean he is a top 5 Georgie boy donor, that's pretty good. Much more impressive then hiring Norv the snore Turner.

So, why didn't any of the other teams hire Cowher or Carroll?

In fantasyland, your scenario may work.

In the real world, Cowher wasn't coming back. Do you even know why he 'retired'? He'll be back but most likely not for a couple of years.

Pete Carroll isn't leaving USC for a while when he's got arguably the best college gig going right now.

boltaneer
06-13-2007, 12:04 AM
Marty didn't get his bonus, the real losers were Brees and the fans of SD.

As much as I like Brees, I'm much happier with Rivers so I'm not down about how things transpired. This is pretty much the consensus of Charger fans.

Rivers finally got his chance to start and is doing well in SD and Brees got his long term deal he was looking for and is doing well in NO. Both QBs are a reason that their respective teams are on the rise so I think it worked out well for all parties involved.

Inkana7
06-13-2007, 12:44 AM
It was Marty's decision to play Brees in the 'meaningless' final game of the season, so you can put a lot of this blame on Marty for losing Brees.

Rivers is AJ's guy. Brees wasn't. It is a gamble but Brees has hit his ceiling. Rivers has a much higher upside and he is already doing things that Brees cannot.

Rivers came in 2nd in the MVP voting and led his team to a conference championship?

By the way, I thought Brees couldn't throw it deep?

cutthemdown
06-13-2007, 12:46 AM
So, why didn't any of the other teams hire Cowher or Carroll?

In fantasyland, your scenario may work.

In the real world, Cowher wasn't coming back. Do you even know why he 'retired'? He'll be back but most likely not for a couple of years.

Pete Carroll isn't leaving USC for a while when he's got arguably the best college gig going right now.

What other team that needed a coach was on the verge of a Superbowl run?

boltaneer
06-13-2007, 01:16 AM
What other team that needed a coach was on the verge of a Superbowl run?

What does it matter?

If you're saying the Chargers could have gotten Cowher or Carroll, then any team could have gotten them, right?

So why didn't any team get them, if it's as easy as you made it sound?

Because Cowher and Carroll were never going anywhere this year.

boltaneer
06-13-2007, 01:32 AM
Rivers came in 2nd in the MVP voting and led his team to a conference championship?

Careful. I didn't say Rivers is already better than Brees. I said that he's doing things that Brees could not. I thought Brees was the 2nd best QB in the NFL last year.

Playing in the NFC certainly helps too. :)

By the way, I thought Brees couldn't throw it deep?


Everyone questioned Brees' deep ball until this past season.

I say Dr. Andrews needs to be given some sort of award for his work on Brees. ;)

He threw some beautiful bombs last year but he managed to throw his patented ducks every once in a while. Maybe he benefited from playing indoors for eight games of the year? Whatever the reasons, his arm looked much stronger last year.

cutthemdown
06-13-2007, 02:04 AM
What does it matter?

If you're saying the Chargers could have gotten Cowher or Carroll, then any team could have gotten them, right?

So why didn't any team get them, if it's as easy as you made it sound?

Because Cowher and Carroll were never going anywhere this year.

There were alot of rumors about Carrol leaving but the price would have been high. No team was willing to part with the money it would have taken to lure Carrol out. Not team asked about Cowher mostly because Pitt still had him under contract. He retired so to get him you would have had to offer picks and pay him big big money. It's easy to tell the fans Turner was all we could get, but we all no differently. He's just all you could afford.

bendog
06-13-2007, 12:53 PM
Careful. I didn't say Rivers is already better than Brees. I said that he's doing things that Brees could not. I thought Brees was the 2nd best QB in the NFL last year.

Playing in the NFC certainly helps too. :)




Everyone questioned Brees' deep ball until this past season.

I say Dr. Andrews needs to be given some sort of award for his work on Brees. ;)

He threw some beautiful bombs last year but he managed to throw his patented ducks every once in a while. Maybe he benefited from playing indoors for eight games of the year? Whatever the reasons, his arm looked much stronger last year.

I saw all the saints games, and I still question his arm. However, Peyton's offense is a pretty amazing thing. Brees is like an old school point guard collecting assists.

boltaneer
06-13-2007, 01:42 PM
There were alot of rumors about Carrol leaving but the price would have been high. No team was willing to part with the money it would have taken to lure Carrol out. Not team asked about Cowher mostly because Pitt still had him under contract. He retired so to get him you would have had to offer picks and pay him big big money. It's easy to tell the fans Turner was all we could get, but we all no differently. He's just all you could afford.

Cowher is very good freinds with Marty. There was no way he was going to walk into San Diego and take Marty's old job while the seat was still warm and with all the crap that went down between Marty and AJ Smith.

Cowher going to San Diego wasn't going to happen.

And no one in their right mind is going to pay Carroll $10 million a year, as you suggested that it will take to lure him out of USC. The guy hasn't proven anything on an NFL level and I don't really see him as any more exciting than hiring Norv. But most importantly, the Chargers weren't interested in getting someone who would change the offense here. That is probably the only selling point Charger fans have bought with bringing in Norv: he'll be running the offense he brought to San Diego in 2001 and he has a great record of developing young QBs.

Like I said before, all your dream coaching scenarios are fantasyland.

400HZ
06-13-2007, 01:47 PM
There were alot of rumors about Carrol leaving but the price would have been high. No team was willing to part with the money it would have taken to lure Carrol out. Not team asked about Cowher mostly because Pitt still had him under contract. He retired so to get him you would have had to offer picks and pay him big big money. It's easy to tell the fans Turner was all we could get, but we all no differently. He's just all you could afford.

More than the money was the fact that Carrol wanted complete control of the team like he has at USC.

Drek
06-13-2007, 01:48 PM
Careful. I didn't say Rivers is already better than Brees. I said that he's doing things that Brees could not. I thought Brees was the 2nd best QB in the NFL last year.

Playing in the NFC certainly helps too. :)




Everyone questioned Brees' deep ball until this past season.

I say Dr. Andrews needs to be given some sort of award for his work on Brees. ;)

He threw some beautiful bombs last year but he managed to throw his patented ducks every once in a while. Maybe he benefited from playing indoors for eight games of the year? Whatever the reasons, his arm looked much stronger last year.

Andrews is the world leader in shoulder/arm injuries, especially as related to throwing, has won a number of awards for his work, and is referred to an a near annual basis by pretty much every MLB organization. I know the Red Sox are running an advanced biometrics research program that he assists with specializing in throwing motions (obviously).

What do you think the chances are he didn't put Brees through their simulations and help him develop a better motion? He'd occasionally duck one because he, like many major league pitchers, would occasionally slip back into his old motion.

Also, the shoulder injury isn't as huge a deal for throwing a football as you'd think. Anyone throwing a football or baseball with appropriate form generates most of their power from their legs, ass, and core. A perfect example of this was Elway's 1997 season, which he played with a ruptured biceps tendon. A powerful arm can give you that extra bit of juice and a tighter spiral, but it won't make or break your throwing power.

This is something I think NFL scouts miss almost universally. Throwing strength isn't a set in stone attribute for a prospect. Many QBs have significantly improved their arm strength over their careers. Look at Tom Brady, when he first entered the league he threw lame duck passes everywhere. After a very rigorous core regiment over his first few off-seasons though he now sports a pretty solid arm. Hell, "arm strength" was the reason he slid to the 6th round!

Its great if your QB can throw rockets from day one and no amount of work will make you into an all world gunslinger, but even limp armed QBs can become above average with some work and effort.

400HZ
06-13-2007, 01:58 PM
To keep Cameron as OC all Chargers would have had to do is what Skins do. Pay him 3 mil to be OC and say we are giving Marty one more yr, you get to be HC after next yr. Then you keep Marty because he was 14-2. Maybe Phillips still leaves Cotrell is a good coach. But IMO Spanos would never do that why waste the money for a football team is his thinking. Also he wouldn't bother because to do that he would have to step on AJ Smith. Unfortunatly coaching is not overrated and AJ Smiths move of Marty out Turner in is quite possibly the worst coaching switch ever. I'm not even talking playoff wins this and that, marty hasn't done well there. I'm just talking from being a fan and having watched both coaches teams play. Turner coached teams often lack discipline. He's way better suited to being the second in command from the O coord spot. Cameron to me has done a great job with no good wr the last 5 yr in SD. They even crap canned his starting qb because AJ SMith liked Phillips. By the way I think Brees is just as good as Phillips if not more saavy. I wouldn't say all Smiths moves are golden to this point. Roidman worked out, he got a good kicker, grabbed a couple good olineman, found a gem in Gates, found some good players all in all through draft I agree. But not getting anything for Brees was bad. Maybe they didn't need Phillips because Brees was good. They could have used that pick differently and kept Brees. Broncos got more for Plummer then you guys did for Brees. That's just crazy. Chargers had already used the tag on him so tagging him agian would have gauranteed Brees the money. Instead they gambled he wouldnt heal and they lost. NO got him for squat.

First off SD got a 3rd round compensatory pick for Brees. You should think about learning some facts about a situation before you develop an opinion on it. Secondly who says we wanted Cameron as a HC? Not me personally. Wade yes, Cam no. Turner is a better choice imo than Cameron. Plus that BS about promising a coordinator the HC job next season after the current HC gets canned is stupid. How well is the HC going to perform when he knows he's on the way out?

Also, we didn't lose with Brees. Rivers got drafted in 2004 due to a wretched season from Brees. Drew's fate was pretty much sealed then, even if it took a while to play out. Nobody can afford to have two top salary QBs on their roster. Also saying that Brees is a better QB is a big stretch. Right now I'd say they are close to equal and Rivers has only played for one year.

400HZ
06-13-2007, 02:00 PM
Marty only played Brees because if he won he got a bonus for 10 wins. A good owner would say hey heres the bonus, don't play the QB. Instead Spanos decided to try and save the money and the result was Marty tried to win the game. 10 wins was important enough to the owner to put it in the contract for marty to reach. Marty being the guy he is a competitor went for it. Spanos and Smith sat back and watched. Brees got hurt, Marty didn't get his bonus, the real losers were Brees and the fans of SD.

That was a rumor. It wasn't true. Your posts are worthless.

c_lazy_r
06-13-2007, 02:02 PM
You're acting like we just dumped Vince Lombardi. It was Marty Shottenheimer - the biggest postseason failure the NFL has ever seen! What exactly would be the point in keeping him? Especially after the real coaches Cam and Wade got hired away?

That's just funny ****.

The REAL COACH that was a Charger dream got fired in Denver after 2(?) seasons.

OrangeShadow
06-13-2007, 02:11 PM
man as good as this baseball season has been so far i cant WAIT for football to start. luckily my summer football league starts up monday so ill get my fill

bendog
06-13-2007, 02:13 PM
Wade's not a bad DC. Marty runs his own show, but he no longer calls the dgame, as he did in the Clev years. I think he let that go sometime in KC. Though, he made the decision not to go for the early FG against the Pats, and I thought that was pretty much the game even when I was watching it. It's like watching for the choke ..... ah, there it was.

Why didn't he get Al Saunders for SD? I don't know about Cameron. LT's prolly the best RB in the game right now, but generally I thought Cameron was getting decent production out of a fairly mediocre team.

boltaneer
06-13-2007, 02:21 PM
Andrews is the world leader in shoulder/arm injuries, especially as related to throwing, has won a number of awards for his work, and is referred to an a near annual basis by pretty much every MLB organization. I know the Red Sox are running an advanced biometrics research program that he assists with specializing in throwing motions (obviously).

What do you think the chances are he didn't put Brees through their simulations and help him develop a better motion? He'd occasionally duck one because he, like many major league pitchers, would occasionally slip back into his old motion.


Good points.

Brian Schottenheimer was the QB coach while Brees was here and you can't find many Charger fans who were happy with that.

I don't know a lot about Andrews except that he's regarded as probably the best in sports medicine. If he did help Brees develop a throwing motion that's better for his shoulder, and better than what B Schottenheimer coached him on, it wouldn't surpise me at all.

c_lazy_r
06-13-2007, 02:29 PM
Yeah, I bet we are offering him 3 strippers and a .45 as a signing bonus.

:rofl:

USMCBladerunner
06-13-2007, 08:21 PM
whew...that was exhausting

cutthemdown
06-13-2007, 11:45 PM
That was a rumor. It wasn't true. Your posts are worthless.

I say it was true, you say it isn't. I heard from a my best friends cousins g/f that her brother heard from a marine stationed in SD who knows someone who knows a person that knows a person that works for the Chargers. It all confirmed.

cutthemdown
06-13-2007, 11:46 PM
First off SD got a 3rd round compensatory pick for Brees. You should think about learning some facts about a situation before you develop an opinion on it. Secondly who says we wanted Cameron as a HC? Not me personally. Wade yes, Cam no. Turner is a better choice imo than Cameron. Plus that BS about promising a coordinator the HC job next season after the current HC gets canned is stupid. How well is the HC going to perform when he knows he's on the way out?

Also, we didn't lose with Brees. Rivers got drafted in 2004 due to a wretched season from Brees. Drew's fate was pretty much sealed then, even if it took a while to play out. Nobody can afford to have two top salary QBs on their roster. Also saying that Brees is a better QB is a big stretch. Right now I'd say they are close to equal and Rivers has only played for one year.

Ok you got me on the comp pick. Comp picks though you only get because you never sign any good FA. WHy? because Spanos is cheap.

cutthemdown
06-13-2007, 11:47 PM
More than the money was the fact that Carrol wanted complete control of the team like he has at USC.

good coaches almost always want control. Your owner has decided to go the GM running the team route. We will see very soon if it works.

cutthemdown
06-13-2007, 11:53 PM
the poor battery chargers. Even after a 14-2 year they don't know how to act like winners. That's why you lose this year foolish dolts.