Javon Walker = getting paid

[Kaylore]

I was looking at the stats for Walker last year and noticed something interesting. Denver is 5-1 when Javon Walker scores a touchdown. They are 4-6 when he does not. We are 1-6 in games where he does not have at least 100 yards of offense.

This correlated more directly than rushing yards, which is usually the real sign of win loss especially for rushing teams. Whether we had over 100 yards rushing or not didn't really matter last year. There were games where we put up 125+ yards on one player on the ground and still lost and we won games where we were held to below that total for ground offense.

This tells me that one of the keys to winning games, at least last year, was making sure that Walker was making plays and being productive. When Walker is dominating or even just making plays consistently the Broncos win. When he is shut down, the Broncos lose.

If we can get Marshall, Hixon (of course), Graham, Rod, Henry and Scheffler to give Walker regular good matchups, he should continue to be very productive and win us a lot of games.

[cmhargrove]

In all the excitement about our other players, it will be very exciting to see Walker in the number 1 role from the start, with a season of the playbook under his belt, with Cutler as the starter, (and of course Hixon).

I hope that Walker and Henry are both pushing 1500 yards by the playoffs.

[bronco militia]

I was looking at the stats for Walker last year and noticed something interesting. Denver is 5-1 when Javon Walker scores a touchdown. They are 4-6 when he does not. We are 1-6 in games where he does not have at least 100 yards of offense.

This correlated more directly than rushing yards, which is usually the real sign of win loss especially for rushing teams. Whether we had over 100 yards rushing or not didn't really matter last year. There were games where we put up 125+ yards on one player on the ground and still lost and we won games where we were held to below that total for ground offense.

This tells me that one of the keys to winning games, at least last year, was making sure that Walker was making plays and being productive. When Walker is dominating or even just making plays consistently the Broncos win. When he is shut down, the Broncos lose.

If we can get Marshall, Hixon (of course), Graham, Rod, Henry and Scheffler to give Walker regular good matchups, he should continue to be very productive and win us a lot of games.


for those games that we had over 100 yards rushing and still lost, look at the passing numbers for that game......it wasn't just Walker getting the ball, it was the suckyness that is Jake Plummer

[telluride]

More fuel for my theory that is Javon goes down, we're hosed.

[Kaylore]

for those games that we had over 100 yards rushing and still lost, look at the passing numbers for that game......it wasn't just Walker getting the ball, it was the suckyness that is Jake Plummer

Oh I know, but I was trying not to go there. I really just want to focus this thread on how feeding Javon Walker the ball helps us win games. There's no question that you have to talk about the Quarterback when discussing that, but there are other things. The steelers game he took over and pretty much won it all by himself. I mean he got a player benched. He also won the Patriots game. In terms of God-given talent, he's probably the most complete receiver in Broncos history.

[bronco militia]

More fuel for my theory that is Javon goes down, we're hosed.


I used to feel that way about Rod Smith when he had Qb's named Griese and Plummer.

[Requiem]

I've never bought much into stats like that, but it's interesting. Kaylore, what the **** do you do all day? :D

[bronco militia]

Oh I know, but I was trying not to go there. I really just want to focus this thread on how feeding Javon Walker the ball helps us win games. There's no question that you have to talk about the Quarterback when discussing that, but there are other things. The steelers game he took over and pretty much won it all by himself. I mean he got a player benched. He also won the Patriots game. In terms of God-given talent, he's probably the most complete receiver in Broncos history.

WE'll see......he's still no Rod Smith :homer:

[Requiem]

On another note, me saying that Walker wouldn't be that much of an upgrade continues to look more ridiculous, even though I was thrilled we landed him, and stated in my draft preview a trade for Walker on draft day was likely. I'm glad we have him. I expect he'll have around 80 catches and 1,300 yards or so this year. That'd be hot.

[Kaylore]

I've never bought much into stats like that, but it's interesting. Kaylore, what the **** do you do all day? :D

Right now I'm filling in for a guy at CB Richard Ellis and the office is dead half the day. I read and type on the internet. It's not too bad and pays well.

[Requiem]

Right now I'm filling in for a guy at CB Richard Ellis and the office is dead half the day. I read and type on the internet. It's not to bad and pays well.

At least you have that going for you. I got hired, but K-Mart is about ready to go under, so they can't even schedule me hours, and it's too late into the summer vacation (like a month) to be looking for another job. I get to be lazy, get to party - and be the catcher for our men's league softball team who has and never will win a game this year.

It doesn't pay well, but it's a riot. :D

Anyways, what kind of season do you see Javon having?

[broncosteven]

You have to account for the fact that Walker had a stiff tossing the ball in his general direction last year and still had those kind of stats.

I got to think this year Cutler will spread out the ball a little more.

I always loved Javon as a receiver.

[Kaylore]

At least you have that going for you. I got hired, but K-Mart is about ready to go under, so they can't even schedule me hours, and it's too late into the summer vacation (like a month) to be looking for another job. I get to be lazy, get to party - and be the catcher for our men's league softball team who has and never will win a game this year.

It doesn't pay well, but it's a riot. :D

Anyways, what kind of season do you see Javon having?

I think he'll have 112 catches for 1400 yards and 11 touchdowns.

[RkyMtnThunder]

hmmmm

Get the ball in one of your best player's hands as often as possible to increase the likelyhood of winning games.

I think that could work!



Seriously though - last season Walker was our only threat on offense. I think we have improved enough offensively so far this off season that we (hopefully) dont need to lean on Walker so much.

[400HZ]

I was looking at the stats for Walker last year and noticed something interesting. Denver is 5-1 when Javon Walker scores a touchdown. They are 4-6 when he does not. We are 1-6 in games where he does not have at least 100 yards of offense.

This correlated more directly than rushing yards, which is usually the real sign of win loss especially for rushing teams. Whether we had over 100 yards rushing or not didn't really matter last year. There were games where we put up 125+ yards on one player on the ground and still lost and we won games where we were held to below that total for ground offense.

This tells me that one of the keys to winning games, at least last year, was making sure that Walker was making plays and being productive. When Walker is dominating or even just making plays consistently the Broncos win. When he is shut down, the Broncos lose.

If we can get Marshall, Hixon (of course), Graham, Rod, Henry and Scheffler to give Walker regular good matchups, he should continue to be very productive and win us a lot of games.

Here's another intesting stat: The Broncos were 9-7 in games where they scored at least 1 point more than their opponents.

Seriously: How does Javon Walker scoring a touchdown count for more than Mike Bell scoring a touchdown? A touchdown is a touchdown.

[Los Broncos]

Get him the ball more.

[Tredici]

Here's another intesting stat: The Broncos were 9-7 in games where they scored at least 1 point more than their opponents.

Seriously: How does Javon Walker scoring a touchdown count for more than Mike Bell scoring a touchdown? A touchdown is a touchdown.

Perhaps the answer lay in sentence number three of Kaylore's post. Did you get that far?

[broncsyanks]

just wait until that running game gets started-- then you will see numbers

[Kaylore]

Here's another intesting stat: The Broncos were 9-7 in games where they scored at least 1 point more than their opponents.

Seriously: How does Javon Walker scoring a touchdown count for more than Mike Bell scoring a touchdown? A touchdown is a touchdown.

I think you need to go play in the kiddie pool as this is all clearly over your head.

[400HZ]

Perhaps the answer lay in sentence number three of Kaylore's post. Did you get that far?

Ya right, like I have time for that.

[Jens1893]

I think he'll have 112 catches for 1400 yards and 11 touchdowns.

I think you are a little too optimistic. The overall offensive production will improve, but last season Javon basically was the only player who performed as expected on offense. This season we will (hopefully) have a contribution from the Tight End position from Day 1, a proven and clear cut #1 RB and also some receivers who are gonna get looks and balls thrown their way other than Javon. I will be very hapy if Javon can have another 1,000+ yard, 10+ TD season.

[400HZ]

Jeff Fisher was on TV talking about a similar concent in 2005. He realized that the Titans were like 3-0 when they rushed the ball 30 times or more.

That's flawed logic though. I bet the Broncos will be 5-1 in games where Brandon Marshall catches a touchdown and gets 100 yards too.

What should be said is that the Broncos do better when their offense is effective. Or the Titans win games when their running attack is potent. Like that.

[Requiem]

Kaylore, are you serious with that prediction? Wouldn't that be an NFL record for catches?

[Jens1893]

Kaylore, are you serious with that prediction? Wouldn't that be an NFL record for catches?

Marvin Harrison once had 143.

M Harrison 2002 143
H Moore 1995 123
C Carter 1994 122
C Carter 1995 122
J Rice 1995 122
I Bruce 1995 119
T Holt 2003 117
J Smith 1999 116
M Harrison 1999 115
R Smith 2001 113
S Sharpe 1993 112
J Rice 1994 112
H Ward 2002 112
J Smith 2001 112

[epicSocialism4tw]

Obvioulsy, there are other variables that you have to consider, Charger fan.

I would say that a game that involves at least two of our receivers (any of Walker, Marshall, Graham, Sheffler, Henry, Smith, Stokely, etc) having 1TD and 80+ yard games will virtually guarantee that the Broncos are in a good position to win. That means that both the running game and the passing game are in a situation that lends itself towards the successful execution of much of the playbook. I think that this is true as long as the offense isnt trying to play catch-up most of the time.

[400HZ]

Obvioulsy, there are other variables that you have to consider, Charger fan.

I would say that a game that involves at least two of our receivers (any of Walker, Marshall, Graham, Sheffler, Henry, Smith, Stokely, etc) having 1TD and 80+ yard games will virtually guarantee that the Broncos are in a good position to win. That means that both the running game and the passing game are in a situation that lends itself towards the successful execution of much of the playbook. I think that this is true as long as the offense isnt trying to play catch-up most of the time.

That's what I was trying to say.

[Dedhed]

These stats are always pretty much a statement of the obvious. You game plan to get the ball to your best players. If you can execute the game plan, you've got a good chance to win.

[ZONA]

Hey.....I got an idea. Why don't we move up to get Calvin Johnson in the draft. Yeah man, who cares about the fact Javon needs the ball in his hands more, we should just get Calvin anyway, and give up our entire draft to do it.


SHEEP!

[Atlas]

I was looking at the stats for Walker last year and noticed something interesting. Denver is 5-1 when Javon Walker scores a touchdown. They are 4-6 when he does not. We are 1-6 in games where he does not have at least 100 yards of offense.

This correlated more directly than rushing yards, which is usually the real sign of win loss especially for rushing teams. Whether we had over 100 yards rushing or not didn't really matter last year. There were games where we put up 125+ yards on one player on the ground and still lost and we won games where we were held to below that total for ground offense.

This tells me that one of the keys to winning games, at least last year, was making sure that Walker was making plays and being productive. When Walker is dominating or even just making plays consistently the Broncos win. When he is shut down, the Broncos lose.

If we can get Marshall, Hixon (of course), Graham, Rod, Henry and Scheffler to give Walker regular good matchups, he should continue to be very productive and win us a lot of games.


I think that has more to do with how bad Plummer was. When Plummer was throwing the ball decent and going deep Denver won. Walker's stats were a by product of Plummer not totally stinking.

[epicSocialism4tw]

That's what I was trying to say.


Well, there you go. Kaylore made an observation that showed a bit of truth. It's more complicated than the idea that Javon Walker alone wins games for the Broncos. On the other hand, Javon Walker is a very good playmaker. In fact, playmaking is his strength. So, if Denver is able to consistently get the ball in his hands, it is an indicator that they are executing one of their primary goals within the offense with regular success. That would mean that the possibility of the Broncos executing other parts of the offense simultaneously is pretty good. Teams arent going to sit back and let Cutler/Walker go to town on them. That will result in a Bronco win quite often.

[Kaylore]

Obvioulsy, there are other variables that you have to consider, Charger fan.

I would say that a game that involves at least two of our receivers (any of Walker, Marshall, Graham, Sheffler, Henry, Smith, Stokely, etc) having 1TD and 80+ yard games will virtually guarantee that the Broncos are in a good position to win. That means that both the running game and the passing game are in a situation that lends itself towards the successful execution of much of the playbook. I think that this is true as long as the offense isnt trying to play catch-up most of the time.

Except that it's not so. There were several games where he put up those numbers with no rushing game. The steelers game for example. That's why it was so odd. It was more than "when the offense does well Denver wins." There were games where we were clicking on offense but he was shut down and we lost.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Except that it's not so. There were several games where he put up those numbers with no rushing game. The steelers game for example. That's why it was so odd. It was more than "when the offense does well Denver wins." There were games where we were clicking on offense but he was shut down and we lost.

Okay. That's an interesting point for an analysis.

An analysis that might take decryption on the level that only Mediator has been able to provide on this site. I would be interested to see an analysis on that point.

[Kaylore]

Okay. That's an interesting point for an analysis.

Yes, that's why I made a thread about it. (That and I'm sick of the Paris Hilton crap). It's like Walker's performances were better at determining our wins than any other aspect of our offense. It was like that regardless of the quarterback, too.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Yes, that's why I made a thread about it. (That and I'm sick of the Paris Hilton crap). It's like Walker's performances were better at determining our wins than any other aspect of our offense. It was like that regardless of the quarterback, too.

I dont have time to do it now, but if I can get to it I'll put together a comprehensive statistical look at it and post it here if its of any value.

I was surprised at just how great Walker was last season at making things happen in the open field. He's a legit playmaker on a level that very few other WR's are able to perform at.

Good idea for a thread. This is a Broncos board after all. :thumbsup:

[DenverBrit]

Here's another intesting stat: The Broncos were 9-7 in games where they scored at least 1 point more than their opponents.



New math??

[Kaylore]

New math??

He's saying we were really undefeated this year, but were screwed by a faulty scoreboard. Apparently we took the board with us to away games too. ROFL!

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

"Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support, not illumination" - Vin Scully ;D

[BlaK-Argentina]

He said last year that he wasn't getting enough opportunities with the ball and people didn't like it. When he got the ball, he made things happen.

He's my 3rd favorite player behind Rod and Champ. The guy can flat out PLAY.

[Paladin]

Jens nailed it, IMO. There are enough other offensive strategies and players that I don't think Javon will get the ball thrown his way as much as Kaylore predicts. I believe Cutler's strength will be in being able to spread the ball around to all WRs and TEs. Further, the running game should be more productive, and I would imagine that the Gameplans will emphasize that part of the O more than in the past two, three years.

The actual mix of runs and passes will be determined by the opponent's D, of course, but Cutler's strength is in being able to get the ball to all parts of the field as necessary. Teams are gonna cover Walker. But that leaves a couple of other guys who can catch the ball.

It will be interesting to see just how this O is going to pan out. Should be versatile and fun to watch....

[mhgaffney]

I'm having feverish flash backs....

Wasn't it 1999-2000 when the Rams had that HOT HOT offense?

Kurt Warner didn't have to be great. He simply fed the ball to his weapons -- and they destroyed the league.

It was awesome to behold.

Is that us in 2007?

[footstepsfrom#27]

Javon was our only consistent offensive threat last year with Rod playing hurt and Marshall almost dormant till late in the year. With so little offensive production, we obviously needed him to shine in order to win. I expect Marshall to break out and Scheffler and Graham to catch close to 100 passes between them this year.

[Natedog24]

"Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support, not illumination" - Vin Scully ;D

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

[kmartin575]

I'm having feverish flash backs....

Wasn't it 1999-2000 when the Rams had that HOT HOT offense?

Kurt Warner didn't have to be great. He simply fed the ball to his weapons -- and they destroyed the league.

It was awesome to behold.

Is that us in 2007?

Travis Henry is no Marshall Faulk (not even close).

Javon Walker and Brandon Marshall or whoever are no Torry Holt and Isaac Bruce.

Oh, and Matt Lepsis is no Orlando Pace.

[chrisp]

Here's another intesting stat: The Broncos were 9-7 in games where they scored at least 1 point more than their opponents.

er, no they were 9-0 in those games - think about it. If you're going to use sarcasm you really need to combine it with intelligence for it to really work....

[atomicbloke]

Here's another intesting stat: The Broncos were 9-7 in games where they scored at least 1 point more than their opponents.

Seriously: How does Javon Walker scoring a touchdown count for more than Mike Bell scoring a touchdown? A touchdown is a touchdown.

:confuzzle

Must be a Raider fan in disguise. Hilarious!

[azbroncfan]

Here is a stat.... Denver is 2-3 with Cutler at the helm.

[chanesaw]

Here's another intesting stat: The Broncos were 9-7 in games where they scored at least 1 point more than their opponents.

Seriously: How does Javon Walker scoring a touchdown count for more than Mike Bell scoring a touchdown? A touchdown is a touchdown.


Wouldn't they be 9-0 when they have at least 1 more point than their opponents?

[FISH]

I think he'll have 112 catches for 1400 yards and 11 touchdowns.


Why so little yards per catch for your estimation Kaylore?

I would think he would have less catches, sub 100, but I like the yardage and touchdowns.

[DenverBrit]

He's saying we were really undefeated this year, but were screwed by a faulty scoreboard. Apparently we took the board with us to away games too. ROFL!

It's a plot to deny Woody credit for predicting a 16-0 season.
You'd think that a sports fan would understand the concept: 'The team that scores the most points wins.' ^5

[Kaylore]

"Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamp post: for support, not illumination" - Vin Scully ;D

I don't really agree with that. I'm not lidderer (who apparently no longer posts here). I do watch the games in addition to looking at stats as they tell the whole story when used together. You can't glance at a stat sheet and tell who had a bad game and who had a good one - not completely. But you can find trends and how those trends translate to wins. Scoring touchdowns and how a player does so is definitely purposeful in trying to figure out how your team can win more. The team with the most points wins. Where it doesn't is stuff like this:

Here is a stat.... Denver is 2-3 with Cutler at the helm.
Comments like this are rooted in fallacy and a good example of stats gone wrong.

[400HZ]

er, no they were 9-0 in those games - think about it. If you're going to use sarcasm you really need to combine it with intelligence for it to really work....

:hitself: :hitself: :hitself: :hitself:

[Cito Pelon]

Oh I know, but I was trying not to go there. I really just want to focus this thread on how feeding Javon Walker the ball helps us win games. There's no question that you have to talk about the Quarterback when discussing that, but there are other things. The steelers game he took over and pretty much won it all by himself. I mean he got a player benched. He also won the Patriots game. In terms of God-given talent, he's probably the most complete receiver in Broncos history.

Marlin Briscoe, Haven Moses, Rod Smith, Eddie were probably better "complete" WR's. But I see your point. Walker is smooth. Maybe he can block, we'll see. I haven't seen Walker escort an RB down the sideline or take a safety out on a pitchout.

[Merlin]

When Walker is dominating or even just making plays consistently the Broncos win. When he is shut down, the Broncos lose.

The hate in this board is amazing. 2 posts after Kaylore's and people are already blaming Jake, which just betrays their simple bias and hate. Under Jake, Walker was on his way to the Pro Bowl, under JC, his numbers droped dramatically.

I'm not trying to argue in favor of Jake or against JC, but lets at least get our facts straight if we are going to diss a guy.

PS What your stats fail to point out is that with the "drop" in Walker's play, there was also the dramatic failure of the D and rookie mistakes of JC. So some of those games would have been won regardless of Walker's lack of involvement in the game plan (especially since JC distributed "Walker's passes" to other players.

[Inkana7]

Marlin Briscoe, Haven Moses, Rod Smith, Eddie were probably better "complete" WR's. But I see your point. Walker is smooth. Maybe he can block, we'll see. I haven't seen Walker escort an RB down the sideline or take a safety out on a pitchout.

You're absolutely right, but to be fair, how many WRs today CAN do that? They're getting smaller and smaller every season.

[Killericon]

Yes, when our players do good, we do win more.

Striking theory you have here, Kaylore. ;)

[Atlas]

The hate in this board is amazing. 2 posts after Kaylore's and people are already blaming Jake, which just betrays their simple bias and hate. Under Jake, Walker was on his way to the Pro Bowl, under JC, his numbers droped dramatically.

I'm not trying to argue in favor of Jake or against JC, but lets at least get our facts straight if we are going to diss a guy.

PS What your stats fail to point out is that with the "drop" in Walker's play, there was also the dramatic failure of the D and rookie mistakes of JC. So some of those games would have been won regardless of Walker's lack of involvement in the game plan (especially since JC distributed "Walker's passes" to other players.

Merlin, Jake was horrible last year. He was one of the lowest rated QBs in the NFL. Those are facts.

[Kaylore]

Merlin, Jake was horrible last year. He was one of the lowest rated QBs in the NFL. Those are facts.

And he did things that cost us games or made them harder to win. He was also not very gentlemanly about dealing with pressure or how he left. He played hard for us and won us quite a few games while managing others. I don't hate Jake but I certainly understand why some people here do.

[Kaylore]

Marlin Briscoe, Haven Moses, Rod Smith, Eddie were probably better "complete" WR's. But I see your point. Walker is smooth. Maybe he can block, we'll see. I haven't seen Walker escort an RB down the sideline or take a safety out on a pitchout.

None of those guys had anywhere near the God-given talent as Walker.

[broncosteven]

The hate in this board is amazing. 2 posts after Kaylore's and people are already blaming Jake, which just betrays their simple bias and hate. Under Jake, Walker was on his way to the Pro Bowl, under JC, his numbers droped dramatically.

I'm not trying to argue in favor of Jake or against JC, but lets at least get our facts straight if we are going to diss a guy.

PS What your stats fail to point out is that with the "drop" in Walker's play, there was also the dramatic failure of the D and rookie mistakes of JC. So some of those games would have been won regardless of Walker's lack of involvement in the game plan (especially since JC distributed "Walker's passes" to other players.

I was post 12 not in the top 2.

I wonder if Jake would show up to camp this year if he finished the season 7 -9 or maybe he could have "Manned up" vs Cards & one one more to go 8-8 over the year but I doubt it.

Javon was a stud at Green Bay no shock that they had a down year without him on O. I love the trade & if he remains healthy he should dominate for years to come. Shanny is on the 10 year cycle like all good franchises & this should be a fun year.

[Florida_Bronco]

Travis Henry is no Marshall Faulk (not even close).

Agreed.

Javon Walker and Brandon Marshall or whoever are no Torry Holt and Isaac Bruce.

Javon Walker is every bit as good as those two, and it's not a stretch to say that Marshall can reach that level as well.

Oh, and Matt Lepsis is no Orlando Pace.

Pace's play has not been as good as people think for many years, plus he gets alot of hype because he was such a high draft pick. The gap between those 2 players in minimal at best.

[Archie]

I've never bought much into stats like that, but it's interesting. Kaylore, what the **** do you do all day? :D

Yeah that is EXACTLY what I was wondering myself....

[Kaylore]

Yeah that is EXACTLY what I was wondering myself....

This is actually something that I was curious about and have been playing with for some time. We all know that this is a team game and that each unit must work in tandem, but the fact of the matter is that some players are more important to their team than players of the same position are to other teams. Steve Smith is a good example of this. When he is on, the Panthers win. Sometimes it's just symptomatic of other things working, but there are a few players who really can just take over games regardless of what their team is doing.

[Merlin]

Merlin, Jake was horrible last year. He was one of the lowest rated QBs in the NFL. Those are facts.
And he did things that cost us games or made them harder to win.
These comments are not in dispute, and I was not attempting in any fashion to disclaim them. My point was that once again Jake is being blamed for something, when if fact his numbers were superior in that particular case; i.e. Walker performed better under JP than he did under JC. However, the offence as a whole performed far better with JC. In a subtle way, I was pointing out some of the gaps in Kaylore's statistical analysis. Relying on Walker's performance as an independent variable (defining wins) is a poor choice because his performance clearly suffers under JC (despite some posters clear attempts at just spreading hate), yet the offence overall was better under JC. The clear difference is the D performed much better in the early games for JP than it did for any of the games for JC.

[Kaylore]

These comments are not in dispute, and I was not attempting in any fashion to disclaim them. My point was that once again Jake is being blamed for something, when if fact his numbers were superior in that particular case; i.e. Walker performed better under JP than he did under JC. However, the offence as a whole performed far better with JC. In a subtle way, I was pointing out some of the gaps in Kaylore's statistical analysis. Relying on Walker's performance as an independent variable (defining wins) is a poor choice because his performance clearly suffers under JC (despite some posters clear attempts at just spreading hate), yet the offence overall was better under JC. The clear difference is the D performed much better in the early games for JP than it did for any of the games for JC.

Actually Walker wasn't really any better with one quarterback or another. The things he did against the Steelers and the Patriots had more to do with him than Jake. Game for game, his production was about the same regardless of who was the quarterback.

[Merlin]

Actually Walker wasn't really any better with one quarterback or another. The things he did against the Steelers and the Patriots had more to do with him than Jake. Game for game, his production was about the same regardless of who was the quarterback.
Kaylore,

From your prior comments I understand you lack some background in statistical analysis, but if you are going to play the stats game, at least get them straight or be honest about them.

CAT G Rec Yds Avg Lg TD 1st 1st % 20+ 40+
SEPTEMBER GAMES 3 11 250 22.7 83 2 9 81.8 4 1
OCTOBER GAMES 4 22 285 13.0 54 1 19 86.4 3 1
NOVEMBER GAMES 4 18 319 17.7 61 3 12 66.7 7 1
DECEMBER GAMES 5 18 230 12.8 54 2 13 72.2 2 1

The statistical discrepancy between Walker's performance under JP and JC is not only statistically significant, but fairly major. As I said, if Walker's numbers had at least continued the same under JC, Walker would have been a Pro-Bowl candidate. This does not reflect on JC, but rather your interpretation on what stats are significant.

PS it is irrelevant if Walker creates the yds through his athleticism, at least JP gets the ball to him to allow Walker to do it, which was not the case as often under JC. AGAIN, NOT A REFLECTION ON JC, only on Kaylore's interpretation of what stat figures have importance

[Kaylore]

Kaylore,

From your prior comments I understand you lack some background in statistical analysis, but if you are going to play the stats game, at least get them straight or be honest about them.

CAT G Rec Yds Avg Lg TD 1st 1st % 20+ 40+
SEPTEMBER GAMES 3 11 250 22.7 83 2 9 81.8 4 1
OCTOBER GAMES 4 22 285 13.0 54 1 19 86.4 3 1
NOVEMBER GAMES 4 18 319 17.7 61 3 12 66.7 7 1
DECEMBER GAMES 5 18 230 12.8 54 2 13 72.2 2 1

The statistical discrepancy between Walker's performance under JP and JC is not only statistically significant, but fairly major. As I said, if Walker's numbers had at least continued the same under JC, Walker would have been a Pro-Bowl candidate. This does not reflect on JC, but rather your interpretation on what stats are significant.

PS it is irrelevant if Walker creates the yds through his athleticism, at least JP gets the ball to him to allow Walker to do it, which was not the case as often under JC. AGAIN, NOT A REFLECTION ON JC, only on Kaylore's interpretation of what stat figures have importance

Look at the November, September and December numbers. They're almost identical. Also consider that Cutler is a rookie and Plummer a ten year vet. They are essentially the same! Also consider the Niners game when both Jake and Jay played. I don't think you've proven anything yet by posting these other than my point.

[Merlin]

Look at the November, September and December numbers. They're almost identical. Also consider that Cutler is a rookie and Plummer a ten year vet. They are essentially the same! Also consider the Niners game when both Jake and Jay played. I don't think you've proven anything yet by posting these other than my point.
Stop being a freaking apologist. It is irrelevant that JC is a rookie, it would be irrelevant if he was 10 yrs old. The question was whether JP was at fault for Walker's failures (which was the claim of the haters), and he clearly could not be argued to be so since Walkers numbers under JP are BETTER than under JC. So if you want to blame anyone for Walker's drop it would be JC.

As to the stats, you obviously have a very poor understanding of stats. To even suggest that they are similar betrays are fairly poor understanding of stats. Even at a superficial level you can just compare games played and the stats. September and November have better stats, and each month had a full game less than December.

There is nothing wrong with admitting some numbers are better with JP than JC. Are there reasonable explanation for this? Of course, but that is not the point. Posters are making direct comparisons and then totally misrepresenting the facts.

[broncosteven]

Stop being a freaking apologist. It is irrelevant that JC is a rookie, it would be irrelevant if he was 10 yrs old. The question was whether JP was at fault for Walker's failures (which was the claim of the haters), and he clearly could not be argued to be so since Walkers numbers under JP are BETTER than under JC. So if you want to blame anyone for Walker's drop it would be JC.

As to the stats, you obviously have a very poor understanding of stats. To even suggest that they are similar betrays are fairly poor understanding of stats. Even at a superficial level you can just compare games played and the stats. September and November have better stats, and each month had a full game less than December.

There is nothing wrong with admitting some numbers are better with JP than JC. Are there reasonable explanation for this? Of course, but that is not the point. Posters are making direct comparisons and then totally misrepresenting the facts.

Dude,

JC was not locking on one receiver all the time to bail him out. JC spread the ball around, look at Shef's #'s before JC & after. Walkers numbers went down because JC was a rook starting in the 11"th(?) week and he spread the ball out to other receivers on the roster that the 11 year vet could not hit if they were 20 times the size of HIXON.

[Kaylore]

Stop being a freaking apologist. It is irrelevant that JC is a rookie, it would be irrelevant if he was 10 yrs old. The question was whether JP was at fault for Walker's failures (which was the claim of the haters), and he clearly could not be argued to be so since Walkers numbers under JP are BETTER than under JC. So if you want to blame anyone for Walker's drop it would be JC.

As to the stats, you obviously have a very poor understanding of stats. To even suggest that they are similar betrays are fairly poor understanding of stats. Even at a superficial level you can just compare games played and the stats. September and November have better stats, and each month had a full game less than December.

There is nothing wrong with admitting some numbers are better with JP than JC. Are there reasonable explanation for this? Of course, but that is not the point. Posters are making direct comparisons and then totally misrepresenting the facts.

You keep saying that I don't understand stats but you haven't explained why. As I've pointed out, his production barely changed between quarterbacks. I'm not trying to prove Cutler or Plummer is better. I'm just pointing to the very numbers you've posted.

[Merlin]

JC was not locking on one receiver all the time to bail him out. JC spread the ball around, look at Shef's #'s before JC & after. Walkers numbers went down because JC was a rook starting in the 11"th(?) week and he spread the ball out to other receivers on the roster that the 11 year vet could not hit if they were 20 times the size of HIXON.
Did you not bother reading where I stated that the offence as a whole performed better under JC? I was merely stating that people were misrepresenting Walker's numbers under JP as compared to JC.

Kaylore,
I very simple statistical analysis to compare the per game and then extrapolate over the season. If you do that you will see his overall numbers with JP still place him in Pro-Bowl territory, whereas the same is not with JC.

Next people will be writing the O-line was better under JC and he was more mobile (please note we are talking about LAST YEARS data).

[Kaylore]

Did you not bother reading where I stated that the offence as a whole performed better under JC? I was merely stating that people were misrepresenting Walker's numbers under JP as compared to JC.

Kaylore,
I very simple statistical analysis to compare the per game and then extrapolate over the season. If you do that you will see his overall numbers with JP still place him in Pro-Bowl territory, whereas the same is not with JC.

Next people will be writing the O-line was better under JC and he was more mobile (please note we are talking about LAST YEARS data).

Ok, but I don't get what your point is. Are you just mad that people are ripping on Jake? Jake deserved all the criticism people gave him this year. My point wasn't about Jake or Jay. It was that when Walker is making plays the Broncos win and that his success is better at determining success than any other unit or player on offense.

[FISH]

I think he'll have 112 catches for 1400 yards and 11 touchdowns.

You were pretty damn close...
102 Catches 1,325 Yards 7 TD's

[SouthStndJunkie]

You were pretty damn close...
102 Catches 1,325 Yards 7 TD's

Too bad he was talking about Javon Walker and not B-Marsh.

Walker came up 86 catches, 1113 yards, 11 TDs, and $15,000 in champagne shy of the prediction.

[FISH]

foiled again

[Natedog24]

Amusing reread though...

Its amazing how far, how fast Javon fell out of favor in Denver. Everybody felt so bad for the guy after Darrent Williams died in his arms...

[FISH]

dude...I honestly don't even think about the guy....hence my error

[Rock Chalk]

Travis Henry is no Marshall Faulk (not even close).

Javon Walker and Brandon Marshall or whoever are no Torry Holt and Isaac Bruce.

Oh, and Matt Lepsis is no Orlando Pace.
All True.

But, Brandon Marshall is better than Tory Holt or Isaac Bruce. Both very great receivers, both not as good as Brandon.

[Taco John]

Amusing reread though...

Its amazing how far, how fast Javon fell out of favor in Denver. Everybody felt so bad for the guy after Darrent Williams died in his arms...




Denver fans don't have patience for atheletes who squander opportunities while thumping their chests.

I wonder what Javon thinks about all the Cutler/Marshall press these days...

[Kaylore]

Wow what a blast from the past. This was June of '07? Man, how things changed. It's weird to read this and still see how pissed people were about Plummer being benched even then.

[Clockwork Orange]

I wonder what Javon thinks about all the Cutler/Marshall press these days...

He and Lelie can form their own little "Man, we should have kept our mouths shut" support group.

Enjoy trying to catch passes from JaLatinous Russell, ladies.

[DB-Freak]

Walker was a great WR here.

Just the injuries did not help his case tho.

[Los Broncos]

Has he even played yet?

Guess he cant get healthy.

[Clockwork Orange]

Walker was a great WR here.

Just the injuries did not help his case tho.

It was more than that, as evidenced by Walker's "I don't fit in here" hissy fit at the end of last season when he saw that Brandon Marshall was assuming the role of #1 receiver on this team. It's a shame for him because there are plenty of passes to go around, but obviously Javon was either too short sighted or too selfish to see it.

[DB-Freak]

It was more than that, as evidenced by Walker's "I don't fit in here" hissy fit at the end of last season when he saw that Brandon Marshall was assuming the role of #1 receiver on this team. It's a shame for him because there are plenty of passes to go around, but obviously Javon was either too short sighted or too selfish to see it.

You're right.

He wanted to be the number one receiver on the team and when healthy, he would be the number one WR in many teams.

But I remember clearly remember Cutler saying that Marshall was his no.1 WR without a doubt. And add on to that, Jay said I don't think Javon would have been happy just catching 40-60 balls at most.

This came directly out of Cutler's mouth after javon I think.

[Vladimir]

All True.

But, Brandon Marshall is better than Tory Holt or Isaac Bruce. Both very great receivers, both not as good as Brandon.

whoa whoa whoa.. did you really just say Brandon Marshall is better then Tory Holt?

At this point I don't think so.

[watermock]

Too bad he was talking about Javon Walker and not B-Marsh.

Walker came up 86 catches, 1113 yards, 11 TDs, and $15,000 in champagne shy of the prediction.


Actually, Walker spent TWO bottles at the whore house yet only gave 15,000 to the DW childrens foundation.

Which possibly make your comment correct, oddly.

[Natedogg]

So have any Raiders reporters confronted walker as to why he lied about what happened in Vegas.

Or is everyone just allowing it to be swept under the rug?

[Flex Gunmetal]

whoa whoa whoa.. did you really just say Brandon Marshall is better then Tory Holt?

At this point I don't think so.

I do. I think he is easily top 5. Maybe top 3 with Moss dragging ass.

[OrangeDoofus]

It was more than that, as evidenced by Walker's "I don't fit in here" hissy fit at the end of last season when he saw that Brandon Marshall was assuming the role of #1 receiver on this team. It's a shame for him because there are plenty of passes to go around, but obviously Javon was either too short sighted or too selfish to see it.

Yeah.

Hard to be upset about how it all turned out though; if Javon hadn't left we probably wouldn't have found out how good Eddie Royal is.

[Northman]

whoa whoa whoa.. did you really just say Brandon Marshall is better then Tory Holt?

At this point I don't think so.


Actually i would. Tory has speed but Brandon can make more moves on the field than Tory.

[Br0nc0Buster]

whoa whoa whoa.. did you really just say Brandon Marshall is better then Tory Holt?

At this point I don't think so.

um right now Brandon Marshall is better than Torry Holt
Holt's knee is all messed up, it is a shame to because he is my favorite nonBronco

Holt is not the same player he used to be
Dont get me wrong he is still better than 90% of the recievers in the NFL, but right now Brandon Marshall is better than a gimpy Holt

[Bladerunner]

Marshall is better than Holt right now...easy...but he'll have to stay that way for a really long time to match Holt's career

[Merlin]

Wow what a blast from the past. This was June of '07? Man, how things changed. It's weird to read this and still see how pissed people were about Plummer being benched even then.
Didn't feel like reading the whole thread. Who was pissed about Plummer being benched? I only seem to remember O4Life being pissed about the trade, and some posters feeling like we had decided to develop the QB rather than go for the playoffs. But as a whole, I can't seem to remember anyone being "pissed" JP got benched.

[Kaylore]

Didn't feel like reading the whole thread. Who was pissed about Plummer being benched? I only seem to remember O4Life being pissed about the trade, and some posters feeling like we had decided to develop the QB rather than go for the playoffs. But as a whole, I can't seem to remember anyone being "pissed" JP got benched.

You seemed pretty sensitive about it. Do you agree it was the best move for the franchise?

[Merlin]

You seemed pretty sensitive about it. Do you agree it was the best move for the franchise?
Kaylore,
You really need to read slower or take some reading comprehension courses. I'll give you a point form summation of my statements.

1. Your analysis of JW needing to get the ball more to win was wrong because he got the ball more under JP, and the offence was worst under JP

2. Haters claimed that it was because of JP's play that Walker didn't get the ball enough, yet Walker got the ball more under JP than under Cutler

3. Numerous times I stated that the OFFENSE was better under JC than under JP, but not Walker's numbers (which is what some people were naively arguing).

4. Many posters loved throwing red-herrings such as yrs of experience, JP stinks, JP stares a Walker, JC is head and shoulders better.... all irrelevant, because the question was whether Walker performed under JP and the stats clearly showed he did

5. Consider the above paragraph, they your argument about Walker needing to get the ball more is weak, because it was under JP that he was getting the ball more, yet we all generally agreed that the offence and team operated overall better under JC.

6. I am actually on record as wanting to bench JP about 2 games before he got benched. Not because I thought JC gave us the better chance to get to the playoffs, but rather because our D STANK! and I thought the remaining games were better served in developing Denver's future star.

7. To reiterate, my argument was about people's misuse of stats and naively blaming JP for everything and anything (the man had many faults, there was no need to reach for fictional ones, especially since he gave us 3 very good seasons). JP folded like a cheap chair when the pressure mounted with the new rookie, but that does not mean EVERYTHING he did was wrong.

I'm probably missing some points, but I hope you finally get the gist of the argument.

[Vladimir]

Dont get me wrong I love Marshall as much as the next guy, judging by my avatar but I want to see Marshall perform at this level for the rest of the season then I will be more then willing to crown him top 5.

Just my opinion..

[Atlas]

Javon Walker??? hmmmmm........ The name sounds familar, I can't place it though.

[Rock Chalk]

whoa whoa whoa.. did you really just say Brandon Marshall is better then Tory Holt?

At this point I don't think so.

I love Tory Holt man, but Brandon Marshall is a better receiver at this point in his career than Tory Holt was during the Greatest Show on Turf.

[DB-Freak]

He's ready to rock and roll baby.

[Ambiguous]

Nice ninja edit.

[Fusionfrontman]

Seriously I know he is young but look what he put up last year. Marshall is def a top 5 WR. Who is better than him right now?Moss? With Brady throwing to him yes, not anyone else. He not showing anything this year.

Ok, maybe not the BEST, but prob the most dominant right now. Judging by what he has done so far.

[broncofan2438]

Javon should just hang it up

[mhgaffney]

Kee rist!

I didn't know BM was the illustrated man.