Kris Jenkins

[dark_hawk]

Jenkins might still be available

Friday, May 25, 2007 9:12 pm EDT
Kris Jenkins

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Kris Jenkins' future with the Carolina Panthers was put in doubt again this week.

NFL agent Drew Rosenhaus, whose client Damione Lewis could benefit from Jenkins' departure, said he believes the team still hopes to trade Jenkins.

Sources said the Panthers made Jenkins, a three-time Pro Bowler, available to other teams for a first-round pick before and during the NFL draft last month, but didn't receive a satisfactory offer.

Source: Charlotte Observer


people were talking about picking him up before the draft and was wondering what you really think hes worth anymore. cause if you ask me the first rounder is out of the question

[Arkansas Bronco]

Didnt you just see that kid shot him in Alabama.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Fat and out of shape, lazy, alcohol problems combined with depression, and his knee may be limiting his effectiveness. Pass...gimme Sam Adams instead unless Jenkins costs a 5th...nothing more. We're going to need our picks next year to trade up for LB or safety help in the form of an impact player.

[Willynowei]

Were they seriously considering a 1st? If that really was the case, then its unlikely the Pantherns would lower the asking price much this second time around.

If he is having weight problems as reports suggest, then what does that say about his commitment to football, work ethic and discipline? At this point, Jenkin's price shouldn't be much higher than what Denver was asking for AL - 3rd/4th rounder.

[dark_hawk]

Were they seriously considering a 1st? If that really was the case, then its unlikely the Pantherns would lower the asking price much this second time around.

If he is having weight problems as reports suggest, then what does that say about his commitment to football, work ethic and discipline? At this point, Jenkin's price shouldn't be much higher than what Denver was asking for AL - 3rd/4th rounder.

i think the panthers were just asking for a first i dont think there was a snowballs chance in hell of them getting it.

[CoMoChief]

I thought Jenkins agent Rosehaus said he wasn't gonna be traded to anyone.

[PRBronco]

Didnt you just see that kid shot him in Alabama.

lol

[-Slap-]

Its immaterial. With no third rounder next year, there's no way we make a play for Jenkins now.

[Atlas]

No way not if he weighs 377 lbs.

[Paladin]

Even if he took only a seventh to get, Rosensplatt (or whatever his name is) would want a new megabucks deal, and that ain't gonna happen.

NEXT QUESTION!!!

[dark_hawk]

Even if he took only a seventh to get, Rosensplatt (or whatever his name is) would want a new megabucks deal, and that ain't gonna happen.

NEXT QUESTION!!!

im not saying we should pick him up i was just wondering what you thought fair value was for him cause i can't see him being worth a 1st

[Paladin]

I would give a conditional seveth in a sign and trade deal, if the "deal" was fair. The reason is that I don't like what I have been hearing about his physical and mental shape. Don't need no alkies or slackers.

[listopencil]

"NFL agent Drew Rosenhaus, whose client Damione Lewis could benefit from Jenkins' departure, said he believes the team still hopes to trade Jenkins."


This isn't saying that Rosenwhore reps Jenkins.



This story states:


Rosenwhore represents Damione Lewis.
Damione Lewis would benefit from Jenkins leaving.
Rosenwhore believes the Panthers want to trade Jenkins.


That's it, people. The other bit at the bottom is crap we have all known for some time. This is a press release manufactured by Rosenwhore to help out his client, Damione Lewis. Nothing to see here. Move along quietly.

[footstepsfrom#27]

"NFL agent Drew Rosenhaus, whose client Damione Lewis could benefit from Jenkins' departure, said he believes the team still hopes to trade Jenkins."


This isn't saying that Rosenwhore reps Jenkins.



This story states:


Rosenwhore represents Damione Lewis.
Damione Lewis would benefit from Jenkins leaving.
Rosenwhore believes the Panthers want to trade Jenkins.


That's it, people. The other bit at the bottom is crap we have all known for some time. This is a press release manufactured by Rosenwhore to help out his client, Damione Lewis. Nothing to see here. Move along quietly.
Ha Ha...presented as a public service: http://www.rif.org/

[Paladin]

Still, 7th conditional.

[Killericon]

I say we offer a 4th with a conditional for the following year's 4th based on his numbers.

[Broncoman13]

Kris Jenkins is out of the question.

I do wonder if it would be worth it to offer up a pick in the Supplemental draft for the CB out of Georgia (Paul Oliver). I know we have Champ, Bly, and Foxworth... but this is a kid that would be a first round pick in next year's draft. In fact, one could argue that he would have been amongst the top 3 CB's taken in this year's draft. You can never have too many CBs!!!

[Atlas]

Kris Jenkins is out of the question.

I do wonder if it would be worth it to offer up a pick in the Supplemental draft for the CB out of Georgia (Paul Oliver). I know we have Champ, Bly, and Foxworth... but this is a kid that would be a first round pick in next year's draft. In fact, one could argue that he would have been amongst the top 3 CB's taken in this year's draft. You can never have too many CBs!!!
Some team is going to pony up a 2nd for him.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I say we offer a 4th with a conditional for the following year's 4th based on his numbers.
So we go into next year's draft...one that is considered deeper in talent that the past one...with nothing but our 1st, 2nd and junk? No thanks.

There's a reason they want to trade this guy.

[Atlas]

So we go into next year's draft...one that is considered deeper in talent that the past one...with nothing but our 1st, 2nd and junk? No thanks.

There's a reason they want to trade this guy.

There was a reason why the Redskins wanted to trade Bailey.

There is a reason why any team wants to trade any player, otherwise they wouldn't trade him.

[BroncoBuff]

I am 100% behind acquiring Kris Jenkins - even for a second-rounder.


Unless you guys think Alvin McKinley is suddenly a budding Pro-Bowler. :nono:

[footstepsfrom#27]

There was a reason why the Redskins wanted to trade Bailey.

There is a reason why any team wants to trade any player, otherwise they wouldn't trade him.
Bailey wanted out of Washington...and he didn't have issues. Jenkins has major issues. No team in the NFL wanted this guy enough BEFORE the draft to part with even a 2nd rounder, so they sure aren't going to get that now. Sam Adams is a better option. We need to keep the rest of our picks for next year's draft instead of trading them on guys without the will to even stay in shape.

[BroncoBuff]

What's the latest with Sam Adams?

[WoodMan]

I am 100% behind acquiring Kris Jenkins - even for a second-rounder.


Unless you guys think Alvin McKinley is suddenly a budding Pro-Bowler. :nono:

Jenkins alcohol problems are well documented. He was drinking heavily to ease his emotional pain. I think I heard that he is going to quit on his own. Statistically, this is not a very effective way to handle alcoholism. I also read very recently that his weight is at around 385. Certainly no workout warrior here. He was an excellent DT a couple of years back but to pay a 2nd for him now would be ludricrous. A conditional pick in 08, up to about a 4th, and get his fat-ass into a conditioning program NOW and I would make the deal. He needs to drop about 80 pounds of flab while putting on about 30 pounds of muscle.

[Atlas]

Jenkins alcohol problems are well documented. He was drinking heavily to ease his emotional pain. I think I heard that he is going to quit on his own. Statistically, this is not a very effective way to handle alcoholism. I also read very recently that his weight is at around 385. Certainly no workout warrior here. He was an excellent DT a couple of years back but to pay a 2nd for him now would be ludricrous. A conditional pick in 08, up to about a 4th, and get his fat-ass into a conditioning program NOW and I would make the deal. He needs to drop about 80 pounds of flab while putting on about 30 pounds of muscle.

90% of the alcohilics that quit drinking quit on their own. Anyway if he is in shape he is most definately worth a 4th rounder, I think an additional problem is that if he is traded he will want his contract re-done. he'll want $8 million a year.

[Mediator12]

People forget that CAR is the deepest DT team in the league right now with four guys that grade out as Starters (Jenkins, Kemoteau, Damione Lewis, and Jordan Karstens) and another that may be at that level in Moorehead. Last year Karstens had a season ending injury and they were able to keep all five on the roster. This year, they want to move one of them and feel they can get the most for Jenkins. Jenkins and Mike Trgovac have had issues in the past and a lot of scouts feel Trgovac has hampered the development of Peppers and Jenkins playing a traditional 4-3.

Jenkins was anywhere from third to sixth on the recent NFL Scouting grades people. He was a top 5 DT any way you want to look at it in 2006 after spending two years battling injury. In the list he was sixth, three of the higher rated players were 3-4 nose tackles. The other two were Kevin Williams and Tommie Harris.

I get a real kick out of people evaluating this guy from the media reports too. He has not been a team distraction, has never been arrested or implicated in any crime, and has confessed to having a problem dealing with rehabbing his injuries. Yet 90% of you all are willing to call him a problem and want to overlook the character of the recent draft picks. Justifying not acquiring him because of the media spin is a real poor argument.

Thomas has not even played a snap, and people are hoping he will be the answer inside. Jenkins is a probowl level player today at the minimum and all-pro at the max. I just have a hard time with people who are all right with taking a chance on a rookie DT and not on a proven probowl DT to fill a very important role on this defense right away.

[Atlas]

I get a real kick out of people evaluating this guy from the media reports too. He has not been a team distraction, has never been arrested or implicated in any crime, and has confessed to having a problem dealing with rehabbing his injuries. Yet 90% of you all are willing to call him a problem and want to overlook the character of the recent draft picks. Justifying not acquiring him because of the media spin is a real poor argument. .

Good points but Jenkins did show up recently at 377 lbs and he will want to re-negotiate his contract if traded. I'm all for it if Shanny wants to do it but I'm not gonna be heartbroken over it if Denver doesn't sign him.

[Arkansas Bronco]

Morehead is a hoss. I wasnt with memphis country club yet but every one the was talked about how he just casually lifted kegs on top of the bar and not done the norm and took it on a cart behind. All in all I dont know much but to just grab a keg and drop it on top of a bar is no joke and he is from memphis (jhe had a uncle and a aunt also working at the memphis country club but he was in truth earning bus boy wages) so I like the guy.

[Paladin]

That's all well and good, Med, but Wilson was a pro bowler, too, and the highest possible was a 4th. The point is that if he shows up at 377 and was poor in rehabbing, what is his commitment? Further, how much would you be willing to pay for him?

Somewhere someone on one of these illustrious boards said that people are traded for a reason. CAR may not need so many DTs, but why put their Pro Bowler up?

I would not mind having him, but I think the Broncos would be insane to pay too much. Why is any other team not willing to pay a second for him? Why should Denver pay that much for him?

[listopencil]

People forget that CAR is the deepest DT team in the league right now with four guys that grade out as Starters (Jenkins, Kemoteau, Damione Lewis, and Jordan Karstens) and another that may be at that level in Moorehead. Last year Karstens had a season ending injury and they were able to keep all five on the roster. This year, they want to move one of them and feel they can get the most for Jenkins. Jenkins and Mike Trgovac have had issues in the past and a lot of scouts feel Trgovac has hampered the development of Peppers and Jenkins playing a traditional 4-3.

Jenkins was anywhere from third to sixth on the recent NFL Scouting grades people. He was a top 5 DT any way you want to look at it in 2006 after spending two years battling injury. In the list he was sixth, three of the higher rated players were 3-4 nose tackles. The other two were Kevin Williams and Tommie Harris.

I get a real kick out of people evaluating this guy from the media reports too. He has not been a team distraction, has never been arrested or implicated in any crime, and has confessed to having a problem dealing with rehabbing his injuries. Yet 90% of you all are willing to call him a problem and want to overlook the character of the recent draft picks. Justifying not acquiring him because of the media spin is a real poor argument.

Thomas has not even played a snap, and people are hoping he will be the answer inside. Jenkins is a probowl level player today at the minimum and all-pro at the max. I just have a hard time with people who are all right with taking a chance on a rookie DT and not on a proven probowl DT to fill a very important role on this defense right away.

Yep. My dream draft day would have been to pick up a rookie impact DT and trade for Jenkins.

[Atlas]

I'd be all in favor of trading for him if Denver didn't have to re-do his deal. I think he has 2 years left on his contract. Even though he is young I don't really trust him. He would be a great pickup for two years but if Denver has to give him a 5-year $40 million that would suck. IMO

[Mediator12]

That's all well and good, Med, but Wilson was a pro bowler, too, and the highest possible was a 4th. The point is that if he shows up at 377 and was poor in rehabbing, what is his commitment? Further, how much would you be willing to pay for him?

Somewhere someone on one of these illustrious boards said that people are traded for a reason. CAR may not need so many DTs, but why put their Pro Bowler up?

I would not mind having him, but I think the Broncos would be insane to pay too much. Why is any other team not willing to pay a second for him? Why should Denver pay that much for him?

1. I am not saying sell the farm to get him. The risk/Reward has to be right and I am not sure what a fair price for him would be in this market. I know that if they wanted to get it done, the lack of a third rounder is not a problem though. They would simply make the deal with DEN's second for Jenkins and one of Carolina's picks next year to make the deal reasonable.

2. There is precedent for this kind of move in DEN. They took Walker in a trade off of ACL surgery with pick 37, so using a second to get a player of value is not past Shanahan. Walker was a much bigger medical risk than Jenkins is today. DEN's second would be more like in the fifties next year minimum IMHO. Walker WAS a distraction and threatened to NEVER play for GB ever again BTW. People here were severely questioning HIS character and not looking at his situation uniquely either.

There was that whole Portis for Bailey probowler trade as well. I am still wondering WHY Washington let Bailey go for Portis and the second rounder.

3. Wilson was damaged goods at that point. It is questionable he will play this year at all. The severety of the injury makes a huge difference in trade values.

[Bob]

How come we have heard nothing on Sam Adams? Jenkins seems like Sam was before he realized that he wasnt going to play forever, so he could put half-effort into his career. What do we want out of a player at DT? With a heathy Warren, and a young quick decent sized DT we now have, what do we need? We need a rotation guy -- that would be ok with me, and Adams wouldnt cost us a pick -- next year we have already given up a pick or two. What will we have to be give up to pick up this 377 pount DT with no back-flip skills?

[footstepsfrom#27]

Jenkins was anywhere from third to sixth on the recent NFL Scouting grades people. He was a top 5 DT any way you want to look at it in 2006 after spending two years battling injury. In the list he was sixth, three of the higher rated players were 3-4 nose tackles. The other two were Kevin Williams and Tommie Harris.
Do you have a link to that? The fans in Carolina who watched him play every game don't seem to be convinced he was pro bowl material...a lot of them thought he made it on rep alone. As we all know, the pro bowl is a popularity contest.
I get a real kick out of people evaluating this guy from the media reports too.
You must mean the media reports that said he refused to show up for off season conditioning. Or are you talking about the ones that say he weighed in (again) at close to 380 pounds? Maybe the ones where he specifically stated in an interview that it was all Warren Sapp's fault that he decided to start drinking like a fish and ignore his conditioning because of his personal hatred for Sapp? Which of these do you dispute as false?
He has not been a team distraction, has never been arrested or implicated in any crime, and has confessed to having a problem dealing with rehabbing his injuries. Yet 90% of you all are willing to call him a problem and want to overlook the character of the recent draft picks. Justifying not acquiring him because of the media spin is a real poor argument.
90%?...actually most people in here have taken the opposite view...until now that is...now that we have Thomas the view on Jenkins has shifted somewhat from what it was a month ago. I have been one of the few who expressed missgivings on Jenkins PRIOR to the draft and stated from the beginning that Carolina's price was to high...a fact born out by virtue of the rest of the NFL apparently showing no interest. I've also been critical of the team drafting guys with character issues like both Moss and Thomas, so I know you're not referring to me here. In any case...since when are being a team distraction and having legal issues the only things that could make trading for somebody a bad deal? If his knee isn't right...if he's to lazy to work in the off season...if he's got alcohol and depression problems...if he can't drop weight and stay on the field in the 4th quarter...if his salary is to high...the list is pretty extensive here without the need to bring in additional potential problems.
Thomas has not even played a snap, and people are hoping he will be the answer inside. Jenkins is a probowl level player today at the minimum and all-pro at the max. I just have a hard time with people who are all right with taking a chance on a rookie DT and not on a proven probowl DT to fill a very important role on this defense right away.
Jenkins is ARGUABLY a pro bowl level player...and post-injury, with alcohol and depression problems, plus his weight issues, we're not sure what he is. The difference is Thomas was a 4th round draft choice who will make peanuts. He's a risk...but a cheaper one. He's also younger and healthier.

If we trade our 2nd next year for this guy, we go into a deep draft with nothing but our 1st and 4th rounders and junk. Shanny has shown he likes to move up in the draft by trading later picks in combination for a guy he targets....which will be impossible if we trade any more of our picks next year. Who knows who slips in the 1st round next year to the point where we might be able to move up and get them if we have the ammo. Trading draft picks willy nilly for every veteran with a nice resume and questions surrounding their dedication to the game is not the way to build a consistent winner IMO.

If trading for Kris Jenkins is such a great deal, why hasn't some other NFL team snapped him up yet? There's a premium on pro bowl level NFL talent at the DT position...but nobody's bought into this idea after what...two months?

That ought to tell you something.

[-Slap-]

Kris Jenkins is out of the question.

I do wonder if it would be worth it to offer up a pick in the Supplemental draft for the CB out of Georgia (Paul Oliver). I know we have Champ, Bly, and Foxworth... but this is a kid that would be a first round pick in next year's draft. In fact, one could argue that he would have been amongst the top 3 CB's taken in this year's draft. You can never have too many CBs!!!

If we had to burn next year's second rounder, I would much rather it be on Oliver than Jenkins.

[BroncoBuff]

Jenkins was anywhere from third to sixth on the recent NFL Scouting grades people. He was a top 5 DT any way you want to look at it in 2006 after spending two years battling injury. In the list he was sixth, three of the higher rated players were 3-4 nose tackles. The other two were Kevin Williams and Tommie Harris.

Comparing Jenkins with a 3rd or even 2nd round draft pick is pure silliness ... what kind of phenomenon of feverish optimism does the NFL Draft induce anyway?! PEOPLE: Appx 50% of first-day draft picks disappoint ... a figure that's much higher in Denver.

On the other hand ... Jenkins has already proven he can play in the league, and play at a very VERY high level. And he's YOUNG! So what's not to like? As long as he's losng weight at a reasonable clip, 350-60 is not an unworkable playing weight, especially for Bates' system.



He has not been a team distraction, has never been arrested or implicated in any crime, and has confessed to having a problem dealing with rehabbing his injuries. Yet 90% of you all are willing to call him a problem and want to overlook the character of the recent draft picks. Justifying not acquiring him because of the media spin is a real poor argument.

Word!

He came back from that injury and made the Pro Bowl for the 3rd time in his 5 full seasons ... whether you think it's deserved or not - like Jim Rome says, "Scoreboard!"

I just don't get it, I don't understand what the problem is. He played all of '06, made the Pro Bowl, and has been very forthcoming about his addiction and depression. As someone familiar with those things, I can tell you that accepting that they exist within you is most of the battle. And he never blamed Sapp that I heard - he just said he hated Sapp (which is actually a huge plus for him in my book). Nothing, and I mean NOTHING is worse than somebody in denial.

The only problem I have is the salary cap - I would want an incentive-based contract. Based on his interviews, I'll bet he'd take it.

[BroncoBuff]

If we had to burn next year's second rounder, I would much rather it be on Oliver than Jenkins.

LET'S GO FOR BOTH! The contract-age of this roster is quite young now ... Only Champ, Hamilton and Ekuban (and maybe Nalen, Foxworth and Paymah) are up for new deals next year ... we have a 2+ year window with this roster. I think Shanny and Sundquist realize this - why else would they bulk trade so many picks in order to laser-focus just 4 draftees on basically one unit? They know. And Jenkins would fit that mindset ... Adams too if Jenkins won't take an incentive-laced contract.

I like Oliver becaue he chose to return for his senior year even though his grades were on the precipice. That sounds like a decent character guy.

[-Slap-]

LET'S GO FOR BOTH! The contract-age of this roster is quite young now ... Only Champ, Hamilton and Ekuban (and maybe Nalen, Foxworth and Paymah) are up for new deals next year ... we have a 2+ year window with this roster. I think Shanny and Sundquist realize this - why else would they bulk trade so many picks in order to laser-focus just 4 draftees on basically one unit? They know. And Jenkins would fit that mindset ... Adams too if Jenkins won't take an incentive-laced contract.

I like Oliver becaue he chose to return for his senior year even though his grades were on the precipice. That sounds like a decent character guy.

Both are probably out of the question and I'm inclined to choose neither. I don't want to sit out most of next year's Draft like the Redskins have to do very year.

[broncs2bowl]

Comparing Jenkins with a 3rd or even 2nd round draft pick is pure silliness ... what kind of phenomenon of feverish optimism does the NFL Draft induce anyway?! PEOPLE: Appx 50% of first-day draft picks disappoint ... a figure that's much higher in Denver.

On the other hand ... Jenkins has already proven he can play in the league, and play at a very VERY high level. And he's YOUNG! So what's not to like? As long as he's losng weight at a reasonable clip, 350-60 is not an unworkable playing weight, especially for Bates' system.





Word!

He came back from that injury and made the Pro Bowl for the 3rd time in his 5 full seasons ... whether you think it's deserved or not - like Jim Rome says, "Scoreboard!"

I just don't get it, I don't understand what the problem is. He played all of '06, made the Pro Bowl, and has been very forthcoming about his addiction and depression. As someone familiar with those things, I can tell you that accepting that they exist within you is most of the battle. And he never blamed Sapp that I heard - he just said he hated Sapp (which is actually a huge plus for him in my book). Nothing, and I mean NOTHING is worse than somebody in denial.

The only problem I have is the salary cap - I would want an incentive-based contract. Based on his interviews, I'll bet he'd take it.

Maybe 50% of first day draft picks dont do anything, BUT Marcus Thomas was a second day pick talented to be first day ;) :~ohyah!: :thanku:

[cabronco]

Broncos | Team could meet with Adams
Mon, 28 May 2007 06:57:47 -0700

Len Pasquarelli, of ESPN.com, reports the Denver Broncos may meet with free-agent DL Sam Adams (Bengals).

I wish the word , may, was a Will . Cant they entice him with a great buffet in town or something. It would be nice to get this guy !

[MechanicalBull]

Broncos | Team could meet with Adams
Mon, 28 May 2007 06:57:47 -0700

Len Pasquarelli, of ESPN.com, reports the Denver Broncos may meet with free-agent DL Sam Adams (Bengals).

I wish the word , may, was a Will . Cant they entice him with a great buffet in town or something. It would be nice to get this guy !

What kind of reporting is that by the fat man? They may meet with him. Good to see he is earning his money.

[Mediator12]

Do you have a link to that? The fans in Carolina who watched him play every game don't seem to be convinced he was pro bowl material...a lot of them thought he made it on rep alone. As we all know, the pro bowl is a popularity contest.

You must mean the media reports that said he refused to show up for off season conditioning. Or are you talking about the ones that say he weighed in (again) at close to 380 pounds? Maybe the ones where he specifically stated in an interview that it was all Warren Sapp's fault that he decided to start drinking like a fish and ignore his conditioning because of his personal hatred for Sapp? Which of these do you dispute as false?

90%?...actually most people in here have taken the opposite view...until now that is...now that we have Thomas the view on Jenkins has shifted somewhat from what it was a month ago. I have been one of the few who expressed missgivings on Jenkins PRIOR to the draft and stated from the beginning that Carolina's price was to high...a fact born out by virtue of the rest of the NFL apparently showing no interest. I've also been critical of the team drafting guys with character issues like both Moss and Thomas, so I know you're not referring to me here. In any case...since when are being a team distraction and having legal issues the only things that could make trading for somebody a bad deal? If his knee isn't right...if he's to lazy to work in the off season...if he's got alcohol and depression problems...if he can't drop weight and stay on the field in the 4th quarter...if his salary is to high...the list is pretty extensive here without the need to bring in additional potential problems.

Jenkins is ARGUABLY a pro bowl level player...and post-injury, with alcohol and depression problems, plus his weight issues, we're not sure what he is. The difference is Thomas was a 4th round draft choice who will make peanuts. He's a risk...but a cheaper one. He's also younger and healthier.

If we trade our 2nd next year for this guy, we go into a deep draft with nothing but our 1st and 4th rounders and junk. Shanny has shown he likes to move up in the draft by trading later picks in combination for a guy he targets....which will be impossible if we trade any more of our picks next year. Who knows who slips in the 1st round next year to the point where we might be able to move up and get them if we have the ammo. Trading draft picks willy nilly for every veteran with a nice resume and questions surrounding their dedication to the game is not the way to build a consistent winner IMO.

If trading for Kris Jenkins is such a great deal, why hasn't some other NFL team snapped him up yet? There's a premium on pro bowl level NFL talent at the DT position...but nobody's bought into this idea after what...two months?

That ought to tell you something.

1. The online reports are not out yet. PFW's will be out soon, probably a few days. THR's was out in february, scouts inc is out, and the other's are not available online. THR and Scouts are fee based if you want to know.

2. I think I understand your overall concern in acquiring Jenkins at this point. Like I said in post earlier, I am not sure what his value is in this market and I would not want to sell the farm to get him. However, he is a proven quality DT and the third rounder used to acquire Thomas would have been a fair negotiating tool to obtain Jenkins if he is really still available. It's always about opportunity cost with trades and their is a lot of misinformation about player value in the public arena.

3. As for the reason teams trade Probowlers, it usually is the best thing for them to do in certain situations. Do not forget that DEN's best player on each side of the ball, Champ Bailey and Javon Walker, were acquired in trades in the last four years. Neither WAS nor GB's fans had much good to say about either player as they were being dealt and they are DEN's best players right now, so the whole fan thing should be a non-issue as far as I am concerned.

As far as "Trading draft picks willy nilly for every veteran with a nice resume and questions surrounding their dedication to the game is not the way to build a consistent winner IMO. DEN did that just last year for Walker. That was a high second rounder too unlike next years will probably be. Building a team comes from all three phases as Sundquist stated in his post draft comments. Trades are a significant part of HOW this team has been built.


4. My biggest concern with this post is that you can not see the individual situation clearly becuase you have passed judgement on not wanting to acquire him.

-The weight issue is a joke. Do you really think Jenkins got on the scale for a reporter and weighed in? Or, was his reported weight released by the team who was wanting to justify trading a probowl DT? How many elite DT's allow their weight to balloon right after the season and before joining OTA programs. I have heard the same things about Jamal Williams, Vince Woolfork, Pat Williams, and other elite DT's right after the season has ended. It's not the deal it has been portrayed in the media.

-He no longer has any lingering injuries. He does have an injury history.

-The whole Warren Sapp thing is media Drama. It's a good story on a boring media day, but has zero relevance to determining if he is an elite player.

-The alcohol problem is prevalent in all of pro sports. DEN's current and past players have had plenty of substance abuse issues. At least, he understood why he did it and has stopped. There is no further evidence of his abuse since he rehabbed.

-The depression is also common with many elite athletes as they go through rehab. Edgerrin James, Willis McGahee, even Courtney Brown have experienced depression during rehab. Not being able to do their jobs and having to watch triggers this in many pro athletes.

Again, I am not stating at all that DEN needs to get Jenkins at any cost. It just makes sense that they would inquire about him with their current DT situation and their ability to make trades that actually have worked in favor of this team the last four years.

[footstepsfrom#27]

1. The online reports are not out yet. PFW's will be out soon, probably a few days. THR's was out in february, scouts inc is out, and the other's are not available online. THR and Scouts are fee based if you want to know.
I saw the thread on some of those PFW reports...Travis Henry is the 26th best RB in the league? Credibility here is highly suspect here from what I saw in the other thread.
However, he is a proven quality DT and the third rounder used to acquire Thomas would have been a fair negotiating tool to obtain Jenkins if he is really still available. It's always about opportunity cost with trades and their is a lot of misinformation about player value in the public arena.
If Thomas turns out to be a pro bowler with 10 years in the league, and Jenkiins turns out to be done in two years...how would that trade look to you?
3. As for the reason teams trade Probowlers, it usually is the best thing for them to do in certain situations. Do not forget that DEN's best player on each side of the ball, Champ Bailey and Javon Walker, were acquired in trades in the last four years. Neither WAS nor GB's fans had much good to say about either player as they were being dealt and they are DEN's best players right now, so the whole fan thing should be a non-issue as far as I am concerned.
The Washington and Green Bay fans turned against Walker and Bailey becuase both players wanted out, and before they left, fans didn't want to see them go. I have read nothing that says Jenkins has said he didn't want to play in Carolina. And the reaction of Panther fans does not seem based on spite. Some want to keep him in fact, yet still aknowledge that he's slipped in performance...so I don't think your comparison is valid there.
As far as "Trading draft picks willy nilly for every veteran with a nice resume and questions surrounding their dedication to the game is not the way to build a consistent winner IMO. DEN did that just last year for Walker. That was a high second rounder too unlike next years will probably be. Building a team comes from all three phases as Sundquist stated in his post draft comments. Trades are a significant part of HOW this team has been built.
I must have missed the part where Javon Walker refused to show up for off season conditioning, let his weight baloon out of control, started drinking and sitting on his ass all day instead of rehabbing his knee because he had it in for Randy Moss. Again...bad comparison...Walker impressed from day one with his dedication to getting back on the field.
4. My biggest concern with this post is that you can not see the individual situation clearly becuase you have passed judgement on not wanting to acquire him.
What makes you think I haven't given this considered thought based on the facts? My lack of enthusiasm for Jenkins is based on the cumulative reports of his problems, and my point of view was arrived at AFTER considering these issues, not before as you imply. I can turn it around easily and suggest that YOU have ignored the facts and can't see clearly based on your willingness to accept this guy at all costs. I believe I have more justification for that view.
The weight issue is a joke. Do you really think Jenkins got on the scale for a reporter and weighed in? Or, was his reported weight released by the team who was wanting to justify trading a probowl DT?
Caroina's coaching staff doesn't consider it funny, and yes...I'm sure they know how much he weighed, because this is at the heart of why they wanted to trade him in the first place; because he was overweight and doing nothing about it, including refusing to participate in off season workouts, which I believe he was going to be PAID for BTW...in other words, he's not dedicated to being the player he can be. It also makes no sense for them to make up something that could only hurt his trade value. Why would they do that? His agent could simply tell any team the truth...and he'd have publicly denied this in the press if it wasn't true. You're in denial.
How many elite DT's allow their weight to balloon right after the season and before joining OTA programs. I have heard the same things about Jamal Williams, Vince Woolfork, Pat Williams, and other elite DT's right after the season has ended. It's not the deal it has been portrayed in the media.
This guy weighed close to 380...and it's not the first time...AFTER coming off knee surgery. That is a big deal.
The whole Warren Sapp thing is media Drama. It's a good story on a boring media day, but has zero relevance to determining if he is an elite player.
No it's not. He admitted that he was struggling with alcohol and depression AND he HIMSELF said that his rage towards Sapp was the reason he went into this weird funk. If you don't think that's evidence of a problem you're crazy. What's he gonne do if we lose a game to the Raiders...quit? Second, it's HIGHLY relevant to whether he can be an elite player if he can't 1) keep his weight down, 2) stop drinking, and 3) commit himself to training even if he is depressed. Depression and alcohol have derailed many a career...so you're wrong...it's EXTREMELY relevant.
The alcohol problem is prevalent in all of pro sports. DEN's current and past players have had plenty of substance abuse issues. At least, he understood why he did it and has stopped. There is no further evidence of his abuse since he rehabbed.
How many of Denver's players who had DUI's etc...refused to work out in the offseason due to depression and drank all day instead? As for evidence...he hasn't had a DUI if that's what you mean...what evidence could there be? I don't think he's blowing in a tube for anyone. Who know if he's beat if or not?
The depression is also common with many elite athletes as they go through rehab. Edgerrin James, Willis McGahee, even Courtney Brown have experienced depression during rehab. Not being able to do their jobs and having to watch triggers this in many pro athletes.
None of them blamed Warren Sapp did they?
Again, I am not stating at all that DEN needs to get Jenkins at any cost. It just makes sense that they would inquire about him with their current DT situation and their ability to make trades that actually have worked in favor of this team the last four years.
If Shanny wanted him...don't you think he'd have made an offer by now?

[Atlas]

Comparing Jenkins with a 3rd or even 2nd round draft pick is pure silliness ... what kind of phenomenon of feverish optimism does the NFL Draft induce anyway?! PEOPLE: Appx 50% of first-day draft picks disappoint ... a figure that's much higher in Denver.

On the other hand ... Jenkins has already proven he can play in the league, and play at a very VERY high level. And he's YOUNG! So what's not to like? As long as he's losng weight at a reasonable clip, 350-60 is not an unworkable playing weight, especially for Bates' system.





Word!

He came back from that injury and made the Pro Bowl for the 3rd time in his 5 full seasons ... whether you think it's deserved or not - like Jim Rome says, "Scoreboard!"

I just don't get it, I don't understand what the problem is. He played all of '06, made the Pro Bowl, and has been very forthcoming about his addiction and depression. As someone familiar with those things, I can tell you that accepting that they exist within you is most of the battle. And he never blamed Sapp that I heard - he just said he hated Sapp (which is actually a huge plus for him in my book). Nothing, and I mean NOTHING is worse than somebody in denial.

The only problem I have is the salary cap - I would want an incentive-based contract. Based on his interviews, I'll bet he'd take it.

I agree with all that but are you going to re-sign him to a long term contract worth $8-9 million a year?

[Atlas]

LET'S GO FOR BOTH! The contract-age of this roster is quite young now ... Only Champ, Hamilton and Ekuban (and maybe Nalen, Foxworth and Paymah) are up for new deals next year ... we have a 2+ year window with this roster. I think Shanny and Sundquist realize this - why else would they bulk trade so many picks in order to laser-focus just 4 draftees on basically one unit? They know. And Jenkins would fit that mindset ... Adams too if Jenkins won't take an incentive-laced contract.

I like Oliver becaue he chose to return for his senior year even though his grades were on the precipice. That sounds like a decent character guy.

Why would Jenkins take an incentive laden contract? He is one of the best DTs in the league.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Question for the pro-Jenkins lobby; If none of these issues we've been discussing with him are legitimate and they're all just media creations, why aren't NFL teams lining up 6 deep to trade for an all pro defensive tackle who's 28 years old? He's been on the market for 2 months...at some point it's time to ask if the big BUYER BEWARE sign is flashing in red neon.

[listopencil]

Question for the pro-Jenkins lobby; If none of these issues we've been discussing with him are legitimate and they're all just media creations, why aren't NFL teams lining up 6 deep to trade for an all pro defensive tackle who's 28 years old? He's been on the market for 2 months...at some point it's time to ask if the big BUYER BEWARE sign is flashing in red neon.

Then I have a question for the anti-Jenkins lobby. If he's so worthless why don't the Panthers just trade him for a seventh rounder? I mean, he's such a big steaming pile of dog **** why not just do it to get that salary off the cap?

[footstepsfrom#27]

Then I have a question for the anti-Jenkins lobby. If he's so worthless why don't the Panthers just trade him for a seventh rounder? I mean, he's such a big steaming pile of dog **** why not just do it to get that salary off the cap?
Nobody's saying he's worthless...just that he's a major risk and likely to costly. Obviously they're going to get what they can for him, but so far at least...no takers. The Rams were rumored to be interested...what happened to that? My guess is they did some homework. If they don't trade him, it's possible he gets released if they can take the cap hit...maybe they can't...but they certainly don't seem inclined to commit to him do they?

[listopencil]

Nobody's saying he's worthless...just that he's a major risk and likely to costly. Obviously they're going to get what they can for him, but so far at least...no takers. The Rams were rumored to be interested...what happened to that? My guess is they did some homework. If they don't trade him, it's possible he gets released if they can take the cap hit...maybe they can't...but they certainly don't seem inclined to commit to him do they?

Well, so far every team is saying that the asking price is too high. His market value is being determined. His real "value"? Who knows? That depends on what your team needs. For instance, we obviously needed improvement on the D-Line. It was our biggest, most glaring need last year. In my opinion DT was the bigger need on the line. We addressed that weakness to a point when we signed a veteran FA. How much impact will McKinley bring? Take your best guess but I'm not ready to call him an impact player yet. We addressed the weakness via the draft, but those guys are rookies and it takes a DT longer than a DE to develop. Warren should be healthy this year so that's an upgrade but how much?

So. What do we need? Well, a veteran impact DT would be nice. So Jenkins' potential has some value to us. Just like some other teams around the league.


What do the Panthers need? They sure as hell don't need an impact DT. From what I hear they have several, with some contracts coming up. If you have a glut of talent at a position and you are very good at evaluating that position (like us with RB's) then you trade. Get something for the talent you have before you end up losing it.


Obviously Jenkins is worth more to us (and a few other teams) than he is worth to the Panthers. If that were not true they wouldn't be trying to trade him. Don't let that situation fool you into underestimating his value.

[Atlas]

I think Jenkins is worth a 3rd at his current contract, However giving him him a 5-7 year deal with 12-18 million signing bonus is what concerns me.

I don't know if the motivation is there and even if it is he has had injury problems and has had alcohol and some mental issues.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Well, so far every team is saying that the asking price is too high. His market value is being determined. His real "value"? Who knows?
Well here's the stone cold fact; in a weak draft with only two DT's taken in the 1st round, a 19 year old and a guy with questions about his motor, all 32 NFL teams looked at Kris Jenkins for a #1 and said thanks...but no thanks. The market determines worth...so far what we know is that despite claims to the contrary, not a single NFL team thinks this guy is worth the risk the Panthers are asking. Might they come down? Sure they might...but all that tells you is what I've been saying all along...his issues have severely reduced his former value. I'd rather keep my powder dry for a run at a blue chip player in next year's 1st round than gamble on this guy...especially if we can get Sam Adams for far less.

[RunSilentRunDeep]

He's signed through 2009. Did Jenkins or his agent say he would only show up to a new team if he got a new deal? He just got a fresh contract in the last couple of years. Basically, a 3-year, $12M deal is a pretty cheap tryout for a Pro Bowl DT. I'd send them a 2nd-rounder if Jenkins and a 4th-rounder were coming back.

http://www.nflpa.org/Resources/ActivePlayerSearch.aspx?id=30121

[footstepsfrom#27]

Basically, a 3-year, $12M deal is a pretty cheap tryout for a Pro Bowl DT
This should tell you something when nobody wants him even at this salary level. If he's making $9 million a year I could understand...but he's available at Wal Mart pricing...still no takers.

[RunSilentRunDeep]

This should tell you something when nobody wants him even at this salary level. If he's making $9 million a year I could understand...but he's available at Wal Mart pricing...still no takers.

That's a little strong. The Panthers were holding out for a 1st-rounder. Few teams rarely will deal a 1st regardless of the player. Also, many GMs may want him but simply don't have the balls to make trades.

[footstepsfrom#27]

That's a little strong. The Panthers were holding out for a 1st-rounder. Few teams rarely will deal a 1st regardless of the player. Also, many GMs may want him but simply don't have the balls to make trades.
Ask yourself this question; If Jenkins at age 28, had no issues that really concerned NFL teams, what would he be worth if he deservedly made the pro bowl last season? I think the answer is that he'd EASILY be worth a #1 pick. It's not that NFL teams won't deal #1's...it's that teams rarely give up PLAYERS so valuable that a #1 is the required compensation. Do you think if Urlacher hit the market tomorrow and the price was a #1 that the line wouldn't be forming 5 minutes after the announcement? Champ? Tomlinson? These guys represent the best at their position as Jenkins did just two years ago. Since it's obvious that Kris Jenkins as he was a couple years ago was DEFINITELY worth a #1 pick...and since NOBODY has offered that...obviously the entire NFL does not consider him worth that asking price NOW. THAT can only mean that the list of potential problems has substance to them. If you can get a guy like Jenkins for a #3 you should remember that old proverb...

You get what you pay for.

[listopencil]

Well here's the stone cold fact; in a weak draft with only two DT's taken in the 1st round, a 19 year old and a guy with questions about his motor, all 32 NFL teams looked at Kris Jenkins for a #1 and said thanks...but no thanks. The market determines worth...so far what we know is that despite claims to the contrary, not a single NFL team thinks this guy is worth the risk the Panthers are asking. Might they come down? Sure they might...but all that tells you is what I've been saying all along...his issues have severely reduced his former value. I'd rather keep my powder dry for a run at a blue chip player in next year's 1st round than gamble on this guy...especially if we can get Sam Adams for far less.


I didn't want to give up our first rounder for Jenkins either. I was hoping we could get him for our high third.

[BroncoBuff]

Jenkins is ARGUABLY a pro bowl level player...and post-injury, with alcohol and depression problems, plus his weight issues, we're not sure what he is.If Thomas turns out to be a pro bowler with 10 years in the league, and Jenkins turns out to be done in two years...how would that trade look to you?
That first quote proves you can parse the situation and provide a incisive, nuanced argument, like always. So why then does the second quote turn a blind eye - yet again - to the fact that HALF OF ALL FIRST-DAY PICKS DISAPPOINT? That figure jumps to 2/3 or more in Denver. Jenkins is proven. Not just proven, but a proven Pro-Bowler, whether you like the vote or not, he is. That kind of performance happens to maybe 1 of 15 first-day draft picks on the Shanahan era. So get real.


I'm sure they know how much he weighed, because this is at the heart of why they wanted to trade him in the first place; because he was overweight and doing nothing about it, including refusing to participate in off season workouts ... You're in denial.

This guy weighed close to 380...and it's not the first time...AFTER coming off knee surgery. That is a big deal.
That's why they wanted to trade him? Hmmmm ... pardon me for thinking that maybe they just want to get something for a contract-year guy at a position of great strength on their roster! Of course, we should pay attention to where he's at with the weight, and the rest of the stuff.


He admitted that he was struggling with alcohol and depression AND he HIMSELF said that his rage towards Sapp was the reason he went into this weird funk. If you don't think that's evidence of a problem you're crazy.
That's right. He admitted. I'm telling you steps, you're fortunate you don't know from your own experience, but that's a GOOD THING! Denial is an even bigger a problem than the addiction, because denial stops healing in its tracks. Addicts deny. Recovering addicts admit. And he is admirably admissive and open about his behavior and how it needs to change.


If Shanny wanted him...don't you think he'd have made an offer by now?
The best sources say the Panthers had been sticking to their pre-draft demand of a first-rounder. Even I say that would be nuts, and I want the guy badly. I ask you take notice that very few veterans seem to pull much in trades lately. Only Matt Schaub bucked this trend in the off-season. For heaven's sake, Al Wilson was offered for a third or fourth - before the physical!

Methinks SALARY is the sticky wicket here. As much as I want him, I would be adamant that a contract be incentive based to deter bad behavior. The Sapp obsessive-ness concerns me, but I hate that p.o.s. Sapp so much myself I'm inclined to understand (and isn't that kind of a plus for us after all?) I just hate that Sapp so much, I get what he's saying. What Sapp did to that QB and then Mike Sherman were both worse than even Romo's spitting on Stokes.



One last thing: IT'S THE POSITION OF OUR GREATEST NEED! We saw the thread and article about how rookie DTs take awhile to mesh in the league - it was true of Bunkley and Ngata last year (though Ngata benefitted from some ferocious talent around him). So Marcus Thomas is far from a sure bet for any meaningful playing time. That leaves Warren and Veal, and the new guy McKinley. Put all that together, and trading even a first day pick for Jenkins - provided the contract is incentivised against bad behavior - makes clear sense.

[Mediator12]

Footsteps,

I really enjoy debating this issue with you. You remain respectful and focus on the facts as you see them. You stick up for your opinion. I just wish there were more people willing to debate that way here. That being said, here we go.


I saw the thread on some of those PFW reports...Travis Henry is the 26th best RB in the league? Credibility here is highly suspect here from what I saw in the other thread.

I understand people want to destroy the credibility of PFW. The thing about it though is it is one of five independent sources used to evaluate player performance I used. And, they had his LOWEST rating at #6.

If Thomas turns out to be a pro bowler with 10 years in the league, and Jenkiins turns out to be done in two years...how would that trade look to you?

That is only one side of the story and you know it. As much as Thomas is talented he is unproven and one drug based failure from being removed from the DEN team at this point. How do you feel about that?

The Washington and Green Bay fans turned against Walker and Bailey becuase both players wanted out, and before they left, fans didn't want to see them go. I have read nothing that says Jenkins has said he didn't want to play in Carolina. And the reaction of Panther fans does not seem based on spite. Some want to keep him in fact, yet still aknowledge that he's slipped in performance...so I don't think your comparison is valid there.

Fans will support their hearts Footsteps. They will use any form of justification to support the comings and goings of Players. As much as you overgeneralize their support for Bailey and Walker, I remember their fans stating that neither player was as good as advertised before the trades were made. Both of those fan bases are much more brutal than DEN is with QB's coming after Elway.

I must have missed the part where Javon Walker refused to show up for off season conditioning, let his weight baloon out of control, started drinking and sitting on his ass all day instead of rehabbing his knee because he had it in for Randy Moss. Again...bad comparison...Walker impressed from day one with his dedication to getting back on the field.

I guessed you missed it. Javon Walker walked out of GB in early FEB and Never returned. He went to Rehab in ARI with Lelie at API. He never returned phone calls from Ted Thompson for three months leading to the draft. He FORCED a trade by threating to retire rather than return to GB. Bailey was threatening to Hold out from TC in order to get a new contract from WAS and DEN made it easy for them to unload him. So, both Players missed OTA's and refused to show up for off season conditioning and rehab.

What makes you think I haven't given this considered thought based on the facts? My lack of enthusiasm for Jenkins is based on the cumulative reports of his problems, and my point of view was arrived at AFTER considering these issues, not before as you imply. I can turn it around easily and suggest that YOU have ignored the facts and can't see clearly based on your willingness to accept this guy at all costs. I believe I have more justification for that view.

I never said that. I said you are arguing after the facts you considered. You are defending your position wholeheartedly. My point was that what you considered facts are relevant but nowhere near as condemning as you are making them.

Caroina's coaching staff doesn't consider it funny, and yes...I'm sure they know how much he weighed, because this is at the heart of why they wanted to trade him in the first place; because he was overweight and doing nothing about it, including refusing to participate in off season workouts, which I believe he was going to be PAID for BTW...in other words, he's not dedicated to being the player he can be. It also makes no sense for them to make up something that could only hurt his trade value. Why would they do that? His agent could simply tell any team the truth...and he'd have publicly denied this in the press if it wasn't true. You're in denial.

Actually, every thing you said in that statement was pure conjecture. CAR's coaching staff never released a statement on WHY they considered trading him. My point here is that they offered him and people should inquire about him. The asking price for him was never confirmed, but all reports were consistent that the asking price was a first rounder.

This guy weighed close to 380...and it's not the first time...AFTER coming off knee surgery. That is a big deal.

He was not coming off of Surgery. He played a whole 16 game season AFTER surgery. The question is, Will his weight be an issue before TC? It just might be. But if he reports to TC at around 340 then it will not be. He was not participating in some of the early OTA's because he had spent two straight years conditioning and rehabbing. His body needed a break and his weight ballooned as he relaxed. If that is what you call a lack of commitment, so be it. However, the bodies of these guys do need a break or they will overtrain and have their bodies break down during the season from overuse as well. You see, sometimes overtraining is more dangerous to our bodies than taking a break.

No it's not. He admitted that he was struggling with alcohol and depression AND he HIMSELF said that his rage towards Sapp was the reason he went into this weird funk. If you don't think that's evidence of a problem you're crazy. What's he gonne do if we lose a game to the Raiders...quit? Second, it's HIGHLY relevant to whether he can be an elite player if he can't 1) keep his weight down, 2) stop drinking, and 3) commit himself to training even if he is depressed. Depression and alcohol have derailed many a career...so you're wrong...it's EXTREMELY relevant.

I am a therapist and deal with substance abuse and depression every work day. I also deal with the misperceptions that those labeled have to deal with everyday. Those comments presuppose you know what happened, you know the extent of his depression, if he was truly clinically depressed at all or just used an overused term for feeling bad, and that he he had an incontrollable substance abuse problem. That is quite a leap. All of this from media reports and your interpretation of his statements made to the media. I hate to tell you this, but none of those statements are worth a darn unless you have had a clinical evaluation to support it.


How many of Denver's players who had DUI's etc...refused to work out in the offseason due to depression and drank all day instead? As for evidence...he hasn't had a DUI if that's what you mean...what evidence could there be? I don't think he's blowing in a tube for anyone. Who know if he's beat if or not?

I can think of three off the top of my head, including two on the roster right now. As far as evidence, you have nothing to go on except his own statements that claim he quit the binge drinking after rehab. People do not just admit to having a substance abuse problem publically unless they have already turned the Corner for the most part. So basically, you want to Cherry pick the Alcoholism and deny the rest of his statements?

None of them blamed Warren Sapp did they?

I am not sure why you are obsessed with his obsession? Not everything is as it seems sometimes. Yes, this obsession contributed to his drinking. And, it provided motivation for him to continue rehab and come back and dominate on the field last year and play better than Warren Sapp. There are generally two sides to every situation, and obviously he played at a very high level last year coming off injury.

If Shanny wanted him...don't you think he'd have made an offer by now?

Maybe he has, no one knows for sure but the FO.

Last point. Was Jenkins the player he was before? No. He was the Best DT in football before his injury. However, he was a top 5 guy coming off that injury. Fans can be quite Myopic with their players as everyone has seen even from this board. Seeing a player that was the BEST at their position in 2004 before being injured, miss most of two seasons, and come back not 100% could be why the Carolina fans thought he was not as good last year. He was not, but he was still a top 5 DT in the NFL.

If he is 100% next year, he is one of the rare two gap DT's who also is very good at generating a pass rush. No other NT or two gap DT even comes close. That is why I think he is worth a late second rounder from DEN. Like all trades, both sides need to benefit. Jenkins in Bates Scheme would be ideal to his strengths. Trading for him would IMMEDIATELY put the defense over the hump to be Elite IMHO.

Now, the big question is what would DEN be willing to risk in order to obtain him? Is CAR asking too much and this is all a pipe dream? Probably. Hey, it's the offseason and this is a quality debate. Thanks again footsteps ;D

[footstepsfrom#27]

I understand people want to destroy the credibility of PFW. The thing about it though is it is one of five independent sources used to evaluate player performance I used. And, they had his LOWEST rating at #6.
I revert to what I feel is my strongest argument here in spite what PFW or any other publications say. If Jenkins is truly a top 5 DT as you claimed later in this post...why on earth hasn't another NFL team in the last 2 months decided he's worth a #1 pick? A 28 year old 350 pound monster in the middle who's a top 5 DT is easily worth that. The market seems to disagree with PFW, etc...on his actual worth.
If Thomas turns out to be a pro bowler with 10 years in the league, and Jenkiins turns out to be done in two years...how would that trade look to you?

That is only one side of the story and you know it. As much as Thomas is talented he is unproven and one drug based failure from being removed from the DEN team at this point. How do you feel about that?
Well I feel you make a decent point except for the fact that he cost a 4th and a 3rd plus some junk...less than I think some people have suggested we give up for Jenkins...so yes...I look at him as a risk...but a calculated one with the potential to pan out much higher than the level or risk assumed since his level of talent was considered top 20 in the draft. So on balance I'm OK with the risk in this situation. Second...I consider his question marks fewer than Jenkins.
The Washington and Green Bay fans turned against Walker and Bailey becuase both players wanted out, and before they left, fans didn't want to see them go. I have read nothing that says Jenkins has said he didn't want to play in Carolina. And the reaction of Panther fans does not seem based on spite. Some want to keep him in fact, yet still aknowledge that he's slipped in performance...so I don't think your comparison is valid there.

Fans will support their hearts Footsteps. They will use any form of justification to support the comings and goings of Players. As much as you overgeneralize their support for Bailey and Walker, I remember their fans stating that neither player was as good as advertised before the trades were made. Both of those fan bases are much more brutal than DEN is with QB's coming after Elway.
I went to the Carolina fan boards immediately upon hearing that he was rumored to be on the trading block (more on that in a minute) and what I found there didn't seem like it was said in bitterness or spite or in trying to justify him leaving. As I said...a number of fans wanted to keep him, but most seemed to think he'd lost something. I can't look that deeply into their motives, but I think since they watched him play all year their views are at least worthy of consideration. It's not like that's all I'm looking at.
I must have missed the part where Javon Walker refused to show up for off season conditioning, let his weight baloon out of control, started drinking and sitting on his ass all day instead of rehabbing his knee because he had it in for Randy Moss. Again...bad comparison...Walker impressed from day one with his dedication to getting back on the field.

I guessed you missed it. Javon Walker walked out of GB in early FEB and Never returned. He went to Rehab in ARI with Lelie at API. He never returned phone calls from Ted Thompson for three months leading to the draft. He FORCED a trade by threating to retire rather than return to GB. Bailey was threatening to Hold out from TC in order to get a new contract from WAS and DEN made it easy for them to unload him. So, both Players missed OTA's and refused to show up for off season conditioning and rehab.
First of all, Javon Walker did not refuse to talk to Ted Thompson. Here's a link on that which makes it clear his wishes were expressly stated to Thompson: http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=411548 Second, you're portraying it a little differently than it happened. He threatened to hold out in 2005 but showed up right on time for TC and honored his contract, and of course he got hurt after that, leading to his rehab and subsequent refusal to return to GB. Here's a link: http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=344214 Obviously he didn't return to GB since he was traded to Denver in April. Second, I'm not sure why you're telling me Bailey threatened to hold out since I already stated that he wanted out and forced a trade...something that Jenkins has not been reported as doing. So you're making my point...both Walker and Bailey wanted out...though Walker came back initially before he decided to go for good...and both left the club in position to deal them from a position of weakness. That's the whole point...Jenkins is not being shopped form a position of weakness here...at least not in terms of him demanding a trade, so that can't be seen as the reason NFL teams won't offer more for him. Third, I was referencing Javon's attitude toward rehab here in Denver in terms of his dedication to getting back on the field...he went after it hard and came back healthy. Jenkins on the other hand, admits he did not go about his conditioning/rehab the right way.
What makes you think I haven't given this considered thought based on the facts? My lack of enthusiasm for Jenkins is based on the cumulative reports of his problems, and my point of view was arrived at AFTER considering these issues, not before as you imply. I can turn it around easily and suggest that YOU have ignored the facts and can't see clearly based on your willingness to accept this guy at all costs. I believe I have more justification for that view.

I never said that. I said you are arguing after the facts you considered. You are defending your position wholeheartedly. My point was that what you considered facts are relevant but nowhere near as condemning as you are making them.
I think that's a subjective call. You think they're not that relevant...I think they are...I appeal again to the NFL's other 31 teams and their opinions...since nobody has seriously tried to get Jenkins ior at least been willing to part with anything of value, n spite of him being what you say is a top 5 NFL talent at DT. If we're looking for a "mediator" here...I suggest the league's opinion has thus far supported my view that the market for him is soft...considerably softer than a top 5 talent should command if he had no issues or red flags with legitimate merit.
Caroina's coaching staff doesn't consider it funny, and yes...I'm sure they know how much he weighed, because this is at the heart of why they wanted to trade him in the first place; because he was overweight and doing nothing about it, including refusing to participate in off season workouts, which I believe he was going to be PAID for BTW...in other words, he's not dedicated to being the player he can be. It also makes no sense for them to make up something that could only hurt his trade value. Why would they do that? His agent could simply tell any team the truth...and he'd have publicly denied this in the press if it wasn't true. You're in denial.

Actually, every thing you said in that statement was pure conjecture. CAR's coaching staff never released a statement on WHY they considered trading him. My point here is that they offered him and people should inquire about him. The asking price for him was never confirmed, but all reports were consistent that the asking price was a first rounder.
First, what I stated was not pure conjecture. Early on I scanned for info on Jenkins and ran across several references to Fox saying he expected Jenkins to show up for conditioning workouts, and then he didn't. This was BEFORE they were trying to trade him BTW...and it was not long after than he was on the market. Also, the Rams were considered to be the team most interested, but reports out of their FO suggested they were not interested at the price Carolina wanted because they considered his attitude questionable. While it's true that Carolina's coaching staff never directly stated "we're trading him because he didn't show up and he's a fat pig"...it seems obvious that was the reason based on the way they expressly stated they expected him to show up and then he didn't...so I see this as a fairly logical conclusion in other words.
This guy weighed close to 380...and it's not the first time...AFTER coming off knee surgery. That is a big deal.

He was not coming off of Surgery. He played a whole 16 game season AFTER surgery.
He was up close to 400 after his surgery when he got hurt in 2004, and this was when he went into depression and said he didn't feel like working out because of Sapp, and he also said he was drinking heavily...yes...it was during his initial rehab, and he played only 1 game in 2005, so who knows whether he would have come back to be able to play the whole season in '05 if he'd rehabbed properly instead of sitting around drinking. He's been out of shape and overweight BOTH after his surgery, and now in the year following his first year back from the injury....at least twice...not once...and several Carolina fans reference this as an ongoing problem, so it may have happened prior to his injury as well.
The question is, Will his weight be an issue before TC? It just might be. But if he reports to TC at around 340 then it will not be. He was not participating in some of the early OTA's because he had spent two straight years conditioning and rehabbing. His body needed a break and his weight ballooned as he relaxed. If that is what you call a lack of commitment, so be it. However, the bodies of these guys do need a break or they will overtrain and have their bodies break down during the season from overuse as well. You see, sometimes overtraining is more dangerous to our bodies than taking a break.
See, THIS is what I call speculation...but first of all, he didn't "spend two straight years rehabbing and conditioning". That was the whole problem...he did NOT condition himself well after the 2003 injry, and he ballooned in weight. So I don't think you can explain the 2nd consecutive off season where he let his weight go by suggesting he was burned out from rehabbing and conditioning the year prior when in fact he was sitting around drinking and worrying about Warren Sapp instead. Back to the speculation thing though...even if what you said were true...the COACH did not see it that way because he expressly stated he expected him to show up for conditioning. I'm going by what he said, not by what I might be able to theorize.
No it's not. He admitted that he was struggling with alcohol and depression AND he HIMSELF said that his rage towards Sapp was the reason he went into this weird funk. If you don't think that's evidence of a problem you're crazy. What's he gonne do if we lose a game to the Raiders...quit? Second, it's HIGHLY relevant to whether he can be an elite player if he can't 1) keep his weight down, 2) stop drinking, and 3) commit himself to training even if he is depressed. Depression and alcohol have derailed many a career...so you're wrong...it's EXTREMELY relevant.

I am a therapist and deal with substance abuse and depression every work day. I also deal with the misperceptions that those labeled have to deal with everyday. Those comments presuppose you know what happened, you know the extent of his depression, if he was truly clinically depressed at all or just used an overused term for feeling bad, and that he he had an incontrollable substance abuse problem. That is quite a leap. All of this from media reports and your interpretation of his statements made to the media. I hate to tell you this, but none of those statements are worth a darn unless you have had a clinical evaluation to support it.
Well we share a career track here since I formerly spent almost 20 years in psych and chemical rehab both in the justice and juvenile justice system and then in a hospital environment...but my views are probably considerably different than yours on some of this stuff...none the less, it doesn't really matter IMO whether his depression/addiction was more or less than I imagine it to be or he thought it was...the point is that regardless of what it was qualitatively, it prevented him from doing what he needed to do to conform to the team's wishes for his conditioning. Whether that's his imagination, or whether it's truly a significant problem, in my view is irrelevant since the end result doesn't change either way...he missed his workouts and got fat.
How many of Denver's players who had DUI's etc...refused to work out in the offseason due to depression and drank all day instead? As for evidence...he hasn't had a DUI if that's what you mean...what evidence could there be? I don't think he's blowing in a tube for anyone. Who know if he's beat if or not?

I can think of three off the top of my head, including two on the roster right now. As far as evidence, you have nothing to go on except his own statements that claim he quit the binge drinking after rehab. People do not just admit to having a substance abuse problem publically unless they have already turned the Corner for the most part. So basically, you want to Cherry pick the Alcoholism and deny the rest of his statements?
I disagree that alcoholics don't admit publicly to having a problem and then revert later...but more to the point...WHICH three Broncos refused to work out and drank all day instead? I've not read anything like that...link? If we do have some guys with a problem this severe, perhaps we need to be looking elsewhere to fill their spots instead of taking on MORE problem children. I mean we're looking at possibly losing Kircus to a felony...so I don't think a good strategy would be to seek out more potential felons based on the dubious point that we may have one already...that seems like inescapably bad logic whether applied to felons or alcoholics who let their drinking interfere with their conditioning obligations.
None of them blamed Warren Sapp did they?
I am not sure why you are obsessed with his obsession? Not everything is as it seems sometimes. Yes, this obsession contributed to his drinking. And, it provided motivation for him to continue rehab and come back and dominate on the field last year and play better than Warren Sapp. There are generally two sides to every situation, and obviously he played at a very high level last year coming off injury.
I think it's a red flag when a player basically blames somebody else for his own behavior. Maybe he's overcome that and by admitting it and now he's on the road to recovery...maybe not. I've seen hundreds of alcoholics act like they've got things under control and the next thing you know they're back to square one. This guy doesn't seem that stable to me.
If Shanny wanted him...don't you think he'd have made an offer by now?

Maybe he has, no one knows for sure but the FO.
Well Len Pasquarelli reported (http://boards.atlantafalcons.com/index.php?showtopic=249827) that the Broncos had an initial interest and backed off. Obviously, whatever interest they might have had, they didn't offer a #1...and he could have had either Jenkins or Moss for what they did to move up in the 1st round...as a matter of fact Jenkins could have been had for just the #21 alone...yet Shanny chose a guy who is probably two years from starting and needs significant weight room work...IF he even becomes a starter at all...over Jenkins, who would not have cost us the #3 pick we gave up for the rights to draft Moss. Why would Shanny choose a rookie DE who will take some development time (at a position where we had Dumervil already) when he could have had "a top 5 NFL DT" instead? Makes no sense...
Last point. Was Jenkins the player he was before? No. He was the Best DT in football before his injury. However, he was a top 5 guy coming off that injury. Fans can be quite Myopic with their players as everyone has seen even from this board. Seeing a player that was the BEST at their position in 2004 before being injured, miss most of two seasons, and come back not 100% could be why the Carolina fans thought he was not as good last year. He was not, but he was still a top 5 DT in the NFL.
See, I think if he were truly a top 5 DT, he'd have been snapped up by now.
Now, the big question is what would DEN be willing to risk in order to obtain him? Is CAR asking too much and this is all a pipe dream? Probably. Hey, it's the offseason and this is a quality debate. Thanks again footsteps
Hey...don't you know you're supposed to tell me I think I'm smarter than everyone on earth? ;D

Good discussion here...

[Paladin]

He might be worth a conditional 7th.......

[WoodMan]

For all of you who would sell the farm to have Jenkins playing for the Broncos.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/football/nfl/05/30/panthers.jenkins.ap/index.html
Panthers DT Jenkins skips workout

NFL Team Page

CHAROLETTE, N.C. (AP) -- At 6-foot-4 and 335 pounds -- when in shape -- Carolina defensive tackle Kris Jenkins is hard to miss. So it didn't take long on Wednesday for his teammates to figure out he was absent.

"It's tough to miss a guy that size," guard Mike Wahle said. "I don't know what the deal is. From a certain standpoint, I can't say I miss him."

Jenkins skipped a voluntary team workout Wednesday, irritating players and coaches a month after Carolina failed to trade the three-time Pro Bowl selection.

Jenkins was one of only two players -- and the only starter -- who failed to attend the opening day of three weeks of practices. While the sessions are officially voluntary, it's rare for players not to attend.

"Do we wish he was here? Sure," Panthers general manager Marty Hurney said. "It's a voluntary session and he chose not to be here. It's all we can do."

The Panthers dangled Jenkins as trade bait before the NFL draft, but were unable to work out a deal. Hurney and coach John Fox then said they expected Jenkins to be with the team next season.

Jenkins showed up for a mandatory minicamp a week after the draft. While he appeared to be well over his listed weight, he claimed he had no ill will toward the Panthers. But Hurney said Jenkins gave no indication he would miss Wednesday's workout.

"We probably figured there was a chance he wouldn't be here, but we didn't know for sure," Hurney said.

Jenkins' agent Tony Paige did not immediately return a call Wednesday seeking comment.

The absence put a damper on the Panthers' plans to erase memories of last season's disappointing 8-8 record. It also put into doubt Jenkins' future with the team.

"I prefer for him to be here, just like all the players," Fox said. "They're better off when they're here versus when they're not. But when you have league rules that say they're voluntary, you don't spend much time worrying about it."

Fox was ticked off last winter when Jenkins, who has always had difficulty keeping his weight down, skipped voluntary conditioning sessions, forfeiting a $175,000 bonus.

"We expect him to come into training camp in shape, if he doesn't come in before that," Hurney said.

Jenkins was Carolina's second-round pick in 2001 and quickly developed into one of the NFL's top defensive tackles, making consecutive Pro Bowls in 2002 and '03.

But Jenkins missed all but five games the next two seasons with shoulder and knee injuries. While he was sidelined, Jenkins' weight soared and he acknowledged he became depressed and drank too much.

Jenkins returned last season and was a surprise pick for the Pro Bowl, although he wasn't as dominating as early in his career.

With Jenkins missing, Damione Lewis worked with the first team Wednesday alongside fellow defensive tackle Maake Kemoeatu.

"I really don't know too much what is going on with him, but I've always been a team guy and want to be here and do what they ask me to do," Lewis said.

The only other player missing was undrafted rookie safety Jessie Daniels, who was tending to a family matter. He's expected to join the team Sunday.

[footstepsfrom#27]

"It's tough to miss a guy that size," guard Mike Wahle said. "I don't know what the deal is. From a certain standpoint, I can't say I miss him."
Jenkins skipped a voluntary team workout Wednesday, irritating players and coaches a month after Carolina failed to trade the three-time Pro Bowl selection.
But Hurney said Jenkins gave no indication he would miss Wednesday's workout.
Jenkins' agent Tony Paige did not immediately return a call Wednesday seeking comment.
"I prefer for him to be here, just like all the players," Fox said. "They're better off when they're here versus when they're not. But when you have league rules that say they're voluntary, you don't spend much time worrying about it."
Fox was ticked off last winter when Jenkins, who has always had difficulty keeping his weight down, skipped voluntary conditioning sessions, forfeiting a $175,000 bonus.
"We expect him to come into training camp in shape, if he doesn't come in before that," Hurney said.
Mediator? BroncoBuff? Still on board with this idea?

BTW...Fox's "I don't worry about him not being here since it's voluntary" statement is pure BS. This guy's PISSED but he's obviously much better at hiding his emotions than Jeff Fisher...and now he knows that his trade value just took another big dip. In fact if we sit tight and do nothing we can probably get him for a sack of dirty jock straps right before they cut him...that is if Shanny would even want him now...which is doubtful.

[BroncoBuff]

I'm waivering ... but that doesn't mean this new stuff is "more of the same" exactly.

This kind of stuff is new to what I know about him.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I'm waivering ... but that doesn't mean this new stuff is "more of the same" exactly.

This kind of stuff is new to what I know about him.
Not showing up seems exactly the same to me...but you're right...he might be branching out into new areas of idiocy. ;D

[Mediator12]

Mediator? BroncoBuff? Still on board with this idea?

BTW...Fox's "I don't worry about him not being here since it's voluntary" statement is pure BS. This guy's PISSED but he's obviously much better at hiding his emotions than Jeff Fisher...and now he knows that his trade value just took another big dip. In fact if we sit tight and do nothing we can probably get him for a sack of dirty jock straps right before they cut him...that is if Shanny would even want him now...which is doubtful.

I sure am. It seems that the whole deal stems from a bitter dispute over a contract. Just like Walker, and just like Bailey. A player that is expendable to a team starts pulling the no show agent BS and they start the character assasination all over again. I am sure he just no showed at OTA's after his agent has been in contract negotiations:

1. "We probably figured there was a chance he wouldn't be here, but we didn't know for sure," Hurney said.

2. ESPN article that covers the contract dispute part link: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2887754

3. Paige said he's talked with Hurney several times over the past couple of months trying to work a new deal for Jenkins, who is scheduled to make about $3 million a season through 2009."Talks are ongoing," Paige said.

Paige wouldn't say if Jenkins will hold out of training camp if a new deal is not in place.

"We'll cross that bridge when we get to it. It makes no sense to talk about it now," Paige said.

The absence puts into doubt Jenkins' future with the team.

4. Obviously, this is in response to the DT situation being a Strength for CAR even without Jenkins and his wanting a NEW CONTRACT. That completely explains the reason for wanting to Trade a player of that caliber.

5. I will say this, CAR is going to be in the same position as GB and WAS now and will lose leverage in getting value for him now that the contract is the main issue. Obviously, as someone pointed out, getting value for the guy is going to be harder as he wants a new Contract on top of compensation in the trade. His value just became more clear. No wonder the Staff is pissed, the cat is out of the bag.

6. There is no way anyone is going to give them what they are asking on top of demanding a top tier DT contract. I agree that DEN would be prudent and sweat this one out if they have real interest at this point.

[Mediator12]

The offseason and this is already on page 2? What say ye Footsteps?

[BroncoBuff]

As Milton Friedman is wont to say, "Its all a 'cost-benefit' analysis." ... What does he cost - and what will he benefit?

We all agree he's worth a 6th round pick and veteran minimum salary. And, we all agree he's NOT worth a 1st round pick and top 3 DT salary. There IS a middle ground. for everybody involved. It's just a matter of negotiation and deal-making. And after all, (something the doubters fail to acknowledge), this is the POSITION OF GREATEST NEED on our roster. (Sam LB has 4 or 5 decent vets ready to battle, so don't argue Sam please).

I think we could trade a 2nd-3rd-4th conditional pick based upon roster/games played/Pro Bowl incentives. Further, we could pay him low/medium/high salaries based upon roster/games played/weight/Pro Bowl incentives.




Do we have a deal footsteps?

[Atlas]

As Milton Friedman is wont to say, "Its all a 'cost-benefit' analysis." ... What does he cost - and what will he benefit?

We all agree he's worth a 6th round pick and veteran minimum salary. And, we all agree he's NOT worth a 1st round pick and top 3 DT salary. There IS a middle ground. for everybody involved. It's just a matter of negotiation and deal-making. And after all, (something the doubters fail to acknowledge), this is the POSITION OF GREATEST NEED on our roster. (Sam LB has 4 or 5 decent vets ready to battle, so don't argue Sam please).

I think we could trade a 2nd-3rd-4th conditional pick based upon roster/games played/Pro Bowl incentives. Further, we could pay him low/medium/high salaries based upon roster/games played/weight/Pro Bowl incentives.




Do we have a deal footsteps?

I'd give up a 4th and pay his current $5 million salary.

[Paladin]

Maybe you would. But would the Broncos?

Now the term "conditional" is finally making its presence heard, and I would think a new contract would have a lot of performance conditions as well.

All the arguments and debates and points and counterpoints add up to whether the Broncos or any other team would be willing to put the time, effort and money into the man given the issues in which he is embroiled......

[footstepsfrom#27]

The offseason and this is already on page 2? What say ye Footsteps?
I say "ouch"...he's haggling over his contract when he's already on shaky ground. Add that to the list of red flags. If he came cheap...I mean VERY cheap...a 7th maybe...AND his salary was in that $4 mill range...AND if he's willing to come to the prelim camps...then do it. Any or all of th ose things seem in doubt, if not outright impossible.

What's become of Sam Adams? Has he signed anywhere? I'd rather have him right now.

[Mediator12]

I say "ouch"...he's haggling over his contract when he's already on shaky ground. Add that to the list of red flags. If he came cheap...I mean VERY cheap...a 7th maybe...AND his salary was in that $4 mill range...AND if he's willing to come to the prelim camps...then do it. Any or all of th ose things seem in doubt, if not outright impossible.

What's become of Sam Adams? Has he signed anywhere? I'd rather have him right now.

Oh, come on! All this negative media is over the contract demands. The trade availability become public at right around the time his agent asked for a new contract. So did the negative press following the proposed trade.

CAR has done everything in their power to NOT renegotiate with Jenkins. They threatened to trade him, they released stories about him being overweight, they say negative things about him not being in camp when they knew where he was, why he might not be there, and what he was doing.

The WHOLE reason the trade was even mentioned was to gain leverage in contract talks. Would any of these issues be rehashed if the possible trade story was not the driving force? No. CAR asked for an outrageous price in the trade, they made known his demand for a new contract, and teams saw the writing on the wall. They are in the perfect position to allow him to hold out with a deep DT rotation and three years remaining on his contract. If they really wanted to trade him, they would have made a reasonable concession before the draft to address their Safety concerns.

Instead, they attempted to destroy his open market value by making issues of things that are not that big of a deal and playing hardball in trade negotiations. They do not want to trade him, they want him to honor the contract he has and instead of just doing that they have constructed a media campaign to reduce the amount of money other teams would offer him on the open market. Think about it, you even said why would they release bad info about him if they really wanted to trade him? Easy, to keep him at his below market value contract.

Now, I really dislike all this BS about contract renegotiations and this makes me upset. I have always disliked how players have gone about parading they deserve to get paid more than their contract. You signed it, play it out. Do not take it to the media and make it an offseason issue.

However, in this case Jenkins and his agent did not make it public until after CAR has made an effort to drive down his market value by going to the media and releasing negative information about him. They were not grandstanding and calling CAR unreasonable in the media. For once, they tried to keep it under the radar and handle it behind closed doors.

Instead, this time the team did the slander. If they do not like him that much or think he has no value, trade him for second day pick and move on. Or, just realease him as a cap casualty. The problem with that is they know he can still play and releasing him may come back to haunt them as he could sign in the division.

What is interesting to me, is that you are not seeing the parallels between Bailey, Walker, and Bly in Jenkins Situation. The only player that Jenkins is not better at in his position of those three is Bailey. You have bought hook, line, and sinker into these alleged off field issues that would not be reported if he were not trade bait. He has never broken the conduct policy, been a problem off the field in any way that would receive a media story on it's own, and just finished playing a whole season off a bad injury. And, he wants to be paid market value just like those three did and got it after they were traded to DEN.

[footstepsfrom#27]

As Milton Friedman is wont to say, "Its all a 'cost-benefit' analysis." ... What does he cost - and what will he benefit?

We all agree he's worth a 6th round pick and veteran minimum salary. And, we all agree he's NOT worth a 1st round pick and top 3 DT salary. There IS a middle ground. for everybody involved. It's just a matter of negotiation and deal-making. And after all, (something the doubters fail to acknowledge), this is the POSITION OF GREATEST NEED on our roster. (Sam LB has 4 or 5 decent vets ready to battle, so don't argue Sam please).

I think we could trade a 2nd-3rd-4th conditional pick based upon roster/games played/Pro Bowl incentives. Further, we could pay him low/medium/high salaries based upon roster/games played/weight/Pro Bowl incentives.

Do we have a deal footsteps?
Well it doesn't sound like he'd even consider a contract arrangement like that, but even if he did, I've always believed that you're better off with players who have a hunger to win, and are willing to play hard and be team guys over those that might have more talent but are just selfish and all about themselves. In other words I'd take Rod Smith over Terrell Owens any day of the week. I think this is one of those cases where the players talent is overridden by his attitude and his other issues. In any case, this appears to be a moot point because I don't think Shanny is interested. He's had ample opportunity to make a move and hasn't.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Oh, come on! All this negative media is over the contract demands. The trade availability become public at right around the time his agent asked for a new contract. So did the negative press following the proposed trade.

CAR has done everything in their power to NOT renegotiate with Jenkins. They threatened to trade him, they released stories about him being overweight, they say negative things about him not being in camp when they knew where he was, why he might not be there, and what he was doing.

The WHOLE reason the trade was even mentioned was to gain leverage in contract talks. Would any of these issues be rehashed if the possible trade story was not the driving force? No. CAR asked for an outrageous price in the trade, they made known his demand for a new contract, and teams saw the writing on the wall. They are in the perfect position to allow him to hold out with a deep DT rotation and three years remaining on his contract. If they really wanted to trade him, they would have made a reasonable concession before the draft to address their Safety concerns.

Instead, they attempted to destroy his open market value by making issues of things that are not that big of a deal and playing hardball in trade negotiations. They do not want to trade him, they want him to honor the contract he has and instead of just doing that they have constructed a media campaign to reduce the amount of money other teams would offer him on the open market. Think about it, you even said why would they release bad info about him if they really wanted to trade him? Easy, to keep him at his below market value contract.

Now, I really dislike all this BS about contract renegotiations and this makes me upset. I have always disliked how players have gone about parading they deserve to get paid more than their contract. You signed it, play it out. Do not take it to the media and make it an offseason issue.

However, in this case Jenkins and his agent did not make it public until after CAR has made an effort to drive down his market value by going to the media and releasing negative information about him. They were not grandstanding and calling CAR unreasonable in the media. For once, they tried to keep it under the radar and handle it behind closed doors.

Instead, this time the team did the slander. If they do not like him that much or think he has no value, trade him for second day pick and move on. Or, just realease him as a cap casualty. The problem with that is they know he can still play and releasing him may come back to haunt them as he could sign in the division.

What is interesting to me, is that you are not seeing the parallels between Bailey, Walker, and Bly in Jenkins Situation. The only player that Jenkins is not better at in his position of those three is Bailey. You have bought hook, line, and sinker into these alleged off field issues that would not be reported if he were not trade bait. He has never broken the conduct policy, been a problem off the field in any way that would receive a media story on it's own, and just finished playing a whole season off a bad injury. And, he wants to be paid market value just like those three did and got it after they were traded to DEN.
I thought it was all Sapp's fault. ???

[Atwater His Ass]

i think you make some good points med. not sure if i agree 100%, but an interesting take none the less.