OT: Is there something wrong with this?

[alkemical]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55825

LAW OF THE LAND
Bush grants presidency extraordinary powers
Directive for emergencies apparently gives authority without congressional oversight

Posted: May 23, 2007
1:00 a.m. Eastern

President Bush has signed a directive granting extraordinary powers to the office of the president in the event of a declared national emergency, apparently without congressional approval or oversight.

The "National Security and Homeland Security Presidential Directive" was signed May 9, notes Jerome R. Corsi in a WND column.

It was issued with the dual designation of NSPD-51, as a National Security Presidential Directive, and HSPD-20, as a Homeland Security Presidential Directive.

The directive establishes under the office of the president a new national continuity coordinator whose job is to make plans for "National Essential Functions" of all federal, state, local, territorial and tribal governments, as well as private sector organizations to continue functioning under the president's directives in the event of a national emergency.

"Catastrophic emergency" is loosely defined as "any incident, regardless of location, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the U.S. population, infrastructure, environment, economy, or government functions."

Corsi says the president can assume the power to direct any and all government and business activities until the emergency is declared over.

The directive says the assistant to the president for Homeland Security and Counterterrorism, currently Frances Fragos Townsend, would be designated as the national continuity coordinator.

Corsi says the directive makes no attempt to reconcile the powers created for the national continuity coordinator with the National Emergency Act, which requires that such proclamation "shall immediately be transmitted to the Congress and published in the Federal Register."

A Congressional Research Service study notes the National Emergency Act sets up Congress as a balance empowered to "modify, rescind, or render dormant" such emergency authority if Congress believes the president has acted inappropriately.

But the new directive appears to supersede the National Emergency Act by creating the new position of national continuity coordinator without any specific act of Congress authorizing the position, Corsi says.

The directive also makes no reference to Congress and its language appears to negate any requirement that the president submit to Congress a determination that a national emergency exists.

It suggests instead that the powers of the directive can be implemented without any congressional approval or oversight.

Homeland Security spokesman Russ Knocke affirmed to Corsi the Homeland Security Department would implement the requirements of the order under Townsend's direction.

The White House declined to comment on the directive.

[Crushaholic]

If Congress is set up as a balance, there isn't anything wrong with this.

[Paladin]

There is no reference to Congress. There is no reference as to how long the "Emergency" can last. There is no reference to the rights of people: Habeas Corpus, or whatever. Effectively, this "Proclamation" usurps the Constitution, and creates an Emperor for Emergencies.


Just like the Banana Republics.....

[Hotrod]

If Congress is set up as a balance, there isn't anything wrong with this.

Sorry Crush you had better re-read that article.

I voted for Bush twice :nono: and he just took a dump on the constitution. Also it does very little to define what an emergency is. It could be another katrina or 9/11 or gas hitting 5 bucks....

[Hotrod]

"Catastrophic emergency" is loosely defined as "any incident, regardless of location, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the U.S. population, infrastructure, environment, economy, or government functions."

Corsi says the president can assume the power to direct any and all government and business activities until the emergency is declared over.

The directive also makes no reference to Congress and its language appears to negate any requirement that the president submit to Congress a determination that a national emergency exists.

[Spider]

If Congress is set up as a balance, there isn't anything wrong with this.
but congress isnt , Bush is putting Ambition before country

[Hogan11]

I'll be sooo happy when he's finally gone.

[alkemical]

If Congress is set up as a balance, there isn't anything wrong with this.

"Corsi says the directive makes no attempt to reconcile the powers created for the national continuity coordinator with the National Emergency Act, which requires that such proclamation "shall immediately be transmitted to the Congress and published in the Federal Register."

A Congressional Research Service study notes the National Emergency Act sets up Congress as a balance empowered to "modify, rescind, or render dormant" such emergency authority if Congress believes the president has acted inappropriately.

But the new directive appears to supersede the National Emergency Act by creating the new position of national continuity coordinator without any specific act of Congress authorizing the position, Corsi says.

The directive also makes no reference to Congress and its language appears to negate any requirement that the president submit to Congress a determination that a national emergency exists. "

[Crushaholic]

Sorry Crush you had better re-read that article.

I voted for Bush twice :nono: and he just took a dump on the constitution. Also it does very little to define what an emergency is. It could be another katrina or 9/11 or gas hitting 5 bucks....

You're right. I think I read about half the article...:dunk:

[TailgateNut]

King George expands his powers once again. Can anyone recall any other president who was on a power-trip like this big headed bafoon.
When do the impeachment proceedings commence? Not soon enough for me!

[Beantown Bronco]

Sounds to me like Bush was watching Star Wars Episodes 2 and 3 when he came up with this one.....it's only a matter of time before he starts referring to himself as the Emperor or Darth Bushious.

[Spider]

I wonder if this has anything ot do with it .........
http://www.trib.com/articles/2007/05/24/news/top_story/db599454ac96fd55872572e5000311cb.txt
Bill would slow energy activity

By DUSTIN BLEIZEFFER
Star-Tribune energy reporter
and NOELLE STRAUB
Star-Tribune Washington bureau Thursday, May 24, 2007

Several "streamline" changes in federal energy regulation helped the oil and gas industry turn the Rockies into the nation's largest domestic onshore supply of natural gas.

Now the industry says a sweeping "reform and revitalization" bill proposed by a key House committee chairman threatens to choke that flow, along with emerging renewable energy supplies.

The Energy Policy Reform and Revitalization Act of 2007 would repeal several of those key "streamline" tools that the industry had gained in recent years. No longer would federal managers be held to a 30-day limit to process drilling permits. The bill would also repeal a two-year time frame to identify energy corridors and repeal the "categorical exclusion" that industry says prevents costly duplication of environmental reviews.

"I don't think there's any doubt that this bill, if it passes, will be detrimental to energy security and drive up energy prices," said Marc Smith, executive director of the Independent Producers Association of Mountain States.

Smith said almost every provision of the bill would cut oil and gas production in the Rockies.

"The legislation, sadly, targets a key energy supply region -- the Intermountain West," Smith said.

House Natural Resources Committee Chairman Nick Rahall, D-W.Va., introduced the legislation last week and held a hearing Wednesday in Washington, D.C., for Bush administration officials to raise their objections to it. The bill addresses numerous topics on which the panel and its subcommittees have held hearings, ranging from energy corridors to Minerals Management Service audits to carbon capture.

"The bill being heard today seeks to reinstate public accountability and integrity in the Interior Department's energy programs, to advance alternative energy strategies, begin to grapple with the pressing need to initiate carbon sequestration, and tackle the potential effects of climate change on our fish and wildlife resources," Rahall said.

But Rep. Don Young, R-Alaska, the top Republican on the committee, called the Energy Policy Reform and Revitalization Act of 2007 a "bastard bill" and said it would make energy more expensive.

Rahall said he's open to altering the bill to address concerns.

Duane Zavadil, vice president of regulatory and public affairs for Bill Barrett Corp., said domestic natural gas is a vital "swing" source of energy to help the country transition from CO2-heavy fossil fuels to renewable clean energy. He said it appears the result of Rahall's bill would be a substantial decrease of natural gas production in the Rockies.

"It would appear to me that if you're not able to turn one switch off and turn one switch on, you'd see that natural gas is a needed as a bridge between the two," Zavadil said.

Exclusions

The bill would amend the 2005 Energy Policy Act to eliminate the use of exemptions from some environmental analysis for certain oil and gas drilling projects. The act allows "categorical exclusions" to be used to exempt certain projects from requirements to prepare environmental assessments or environmental impact statements.

The new bill would eliminate categorical exclusions now used for projects in areas with land-use plans approved within the previous five years, or with surface disturbance limited to five acres and a previous project with a National Environmental Policy Act decision.

Supporters of the provision say it would return balance to administration policy that has favored drilling over other public land uses.

But Henri Bisson, deputy director of the Bureau of Land Management, said the agency looks at every permit application to drill in the same manner and follows a complete process, not skipping any consultations even for projects using categorical exclusions. "It's a matter of taking advantage of existing documentation to make the decision," he said.

If categorical exclusions were eliminated, Bisson said, the additional environmental analysis would increase the cost and time to make those decisions. That, he said, would likely increase the cost of fuel in the country.

Bisson said that in 2006 the agency processed about 2,200 categorical exclusion decisions and that it would have cost $5.5 million more to process them otherwise.

Melissa Simpson, deputy undersecretary at the U.S. Forest Service, said 300 projects have been approved by that agency under the categorical exclusions section and called it a "useful tool."

Smith said the categorical exclusion allows federal land managers to avoid redundant analysis, which frees up manpower for more monitoring and enforcement work on the ground.

"We may lose as much as 20 percent of (drilling permits) in the years going forward," Smith said.

Permit deadline

The bill would also require public review and comment before the BLM could waive any stipulation of an oil and gas lease. It would repeal a provision of the 2005 Energy Policy Act that gave a 30-day deadline for the BLM to process onshore oil and gas permits.

Under the 30-day processing limit, federal permitting increased by 35 percent. At the same time, federal land managers also denied a larger percentage of applications, so it's not as though industry got a free pass, Smith said.

"Because you don't know when a permit is going to arrive, you need to ask for more than you are actually able to drill," Smith said. "With services and equipment in tight supply, it's very difficult for businesses to plan ahead."

Corridors

Of particular concern to Wyoming, according to industry leaders, is a section of the bill which would repeal the two-year time frame that mandates federal agencies to identify energy corridors across the West. Wyoming has worked aggressively in recent years to beef up the long-neglected electric grid in the West to grow both coal and wind generation.

The bill would require an assessment of where energy corridors are needed and defer designation of corridors until after the study was completed.

Bisson said that provision would stop the collaborative process under way between federal, state and tribal governments that will result in a draft environmental impact statement within months. "That would all be put to the side," he said.

Royalties in kind

The bill also would end the Minerals Management Service's royalty-in-kind program, except for filling the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. That program allows the government to receive oil and gas instead of cash payments. The Interior inspector general found the program has been subject to fraud and abuses.

The bill would require the MMS to boost the number of traditional audits it does instead of relying on compliance reviews.

Walter Cruickshank, deputy director of the MMS, said the agency has "serious concerns" with the part of the bill limiting the royalty-in-kind program.

"This provision fails to recognize the benefits of the royalty in kind program and will result in losses to the Treasury," he said.

Cruickshank also defended the royalty auditing and compliance program, saying it has been successful.

Oil shale, wind

The legislation also would slow a commercial leasing program for oil shale and tar sands on public lands, which could begin as early as 2008.

Bisson objected to that. He said the oil shale development program is reasonable and doesn't require change.

The wind energy industry opposes the bill because it would require developers to address turbine impacts on birds and wildlife.

Split estate, CO2

The bill would require oil and gas operators who own minerals underneath privately owned surface to notify owners well in advance of operations and secure a written agreement from them or make a good faith effort to do so. BLM would have to update reclamation standards for oil and gas companies.

The legislation would require the USGS to develop a peer-reviewed method and conduct a nationwide assessment of underground carbon dioxide storage capacity.

The Interior secretary would have to develop a national strategy to mitigate the impacts of global warming on wildlife and authorize new monies for federal and state programs to do so.

[Hogan11]

King George expands his powers once again. Can anyone recall any other president who was on a power-trip like this big headed bafoon.
When do the impeachment proceedings commence? Not soon enough for me!

I'm still waiting for him to come up with some bullshat way to end the presidential term limit so he can stay in power...you know, because we're at war! and we have to keep the gays from marrying and all that.

[ant1999e]

Can you say Hugo Chavez?

[watermock]

While I don't agree with it, in a way the Democrats forced his hand.

The Colber Repor showed the immigration bill. The freakin' pile in the bill was 8 INCHES TALL! Colbert simplified it with a post it. GET OUT.

Anyone notice that political threads have continued to infiltrate the main board but aren't moved?

[alkemical]

What happened to spreading democracy?

[theAPAOps5]

There is something fundamentaly wrong with this move. Basically its Martial Law to the 3,600th power. He will be the decider. That means he can go in and take control of just about anything when HE declares something a national emergency.

[bronco militia]

this is something some republicans were worried about with clinton and y2k


wow, just wow

[Rohirrim]

Well, Bushy did once say that the Constitution is just an "old piece of paper." Should anybody be surprised when he wipes his ass with it?

[Rohirrim]

While I don't agree with it, in a way the Democrats forced his hand.

The Colber Repor showed the immigration bill. The freakin' pile in the bill was 8 INCHES TALL! Colbert simplified it with a post it. GET OUT.

Anyone notice that political threads have continued to infiltrate the main board but aren't moved?

Oh no! Bush is destroying America and some Americans want to discuss politics! Run away! Run away!

[alkemical]

I posted this because i wanted to gauge what and how people feel about this. (If some even cared) I felt this was the biggest news in a loooooooooooooong time - and it hasn't received much attn - yet it is a huge impact to our country.

[Tredici]

I'm still waiting for him to come up with some bullshat way to end the presidential term limit so he can stay in power...you know, because we're at war! and we have to keep the gays from marrying and all that.

Not necessary. He can just declare the next election an Emergency Situation....

[ant1999e]

I haven't seen anything about this on the television news.

[theAPAOps5]

A huge part of my job is working with NIMS (National Incident Management System) so I know quite a bit about how the process for handling a national emergency works. Whomever is the current director of FEMA better start hitting up his resume with other agencies because his job was just rendered useless.

I can't help but think this is another reactionary move by President Bush. Katrina was a debacle and much of it was out of his hands. Yeah FEMA didn't handle the job as well as could be but thats just a drop in the bucket. The real problem was Louisiannas Governor Blanco. She loves to pass the buck onto the Federal Government but she should have a huge bullseye on her back for that what happened. Here is why:

- Before the strom hit when it was becoming clear that Katrina was going to hit somewhere near NOLA FEMA asked if she wanted federal help on the ground. She declined.

-Storm hits and the city thinks it dodges a bullit again. Remember the real tragedy didn't strike until about a day after the storm passed when levies failed. For about 4 days the Federal Government pressed her to formaly request their assistance and she refused. It wasn't until Bush threated to temporarily take control of Louisianna using a Constitutional amendment allowing that in times of crisis, that she conceded. Forgive me if I am wording the amendment wrong I can't think of it now.

-So now the people of NOLA are suffering, dying, and have no real direction. The police force is shattered as many walked off the job to be with family and all emergency services are rendered useless by the water. So Bush deploys the 82nd Airborne out of Ft. Bragg North Carolina, a unit fresh back from Iraq. My stepdad was in that unit and had just returned.

-The 82nd Airborne is amazing at what they do. That is killing the enemy and securing an area. Customer Service, if you will, is not their strenght. They came in to NOLA, took over the Airport. I mean Took that damn thing over. I saw it first hand when I was down there. You would see a Delta baggage truck one day and the very next it was covered in OD green. They took over private hangars and knocked out walls to make a HQ. It was amazing to watch. But they got things done when nothing had been done yet.

-The final straw. If you remember a second major hurricane took aim at NOLA for awhile. You know what the genius Blanco did three days before the storm hit? She kicked out all the Army, including a bunch of docs and rescue. She told them that it is now a LA problem and she wants her National Guard in control. I was talking to Colonels and a General in the Incident Command room who were dumbfounded. My two weeks there were up so we got the hell out of there before the storm .

So to get to my point. I don't think Bush likes to be out of total control, that is an understatement. So he has now made NIMS very much in his control.

[alkemical]

Well, Bushy did once say that the Constitution is just an "old piece of paper." Should anybody be surprised when he wipes his ass with it?

or his dictator comment.

[alkemical]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070509-12.html

[freak6]

Only scary because of who is POTUS.

But if we a had a real President with the intellect needed to be the most powerful man in the world, I'd be fine with it.

[bronco militia]

Only scary because of who is POTUS.

But if we a had a real President with the intellect needed to be the most powerful man in the world, I'd be fine with it.

lmao! that's bull****

the current failure of all levels of government is the reason behind this action. You should be worried about more than just the president

[alkemical]

lmao! that's bull****

the current failure of all levels of government is the reason behind this action. You should be worried about more than just the president

No **** militia

[Beantown Bronco]

It's things like this that make me want to become president. I'd step in and declare a state of emergency any time the Broncos were losing in the 4th quarter (which won't happen as long as Hixon is on the field....so it's kind of a moot point).

[Hotrod]

I haven't seen anything about this on the television news.

Maybe after we figure out who gets Anna's $ or American Idol is over they will touch on this issue.

[theAPAOps5]

The Federal Government as a WHOLE has become something forefathers never wanted when they designed this country.

[Hotrod]

Only scary because of who is POTUS.

But if we a had a real President with the intellect needed to be the most powerful man in the world, I'd be fine with it.

Your hate of Bush clouds your mind young jedi.

[theAPAOps5]

Maybe after we figure out who gets Anna's $ or American Idol is over they will touch on this issue.

Don't forget about Paris Hilton and her jail time. National news right there man, she will make or break the path this country takes into the future.

[Tredici]

Maybe after we figure out who gets Anna's $ or American Idol is over they will touch on this issue.

Well scratch Idol off the list. It's over.

[alkemical]

I'm not going to ask anyone to come forward and identify their votes. But for those that agree with this - Why would you agree to removal of the provisions outlined in the constitution?

[Kaylore]

The President has always had this power. Lincoln used it in the Civil war. Civil Libertarians don't like it no matter who's using it, but this isn't "a Bush thing".

[Hotrod]

The President has always had this power. Lincoln used it in the Civil war. Civil Libertarians don't like it no matter who's using it, but this isn't "a Bush thing".

Um no this takes congress out of the picture.

[Kaylore]

Um no this takes congress out of the picture.

Yeah that's what it's for. He has this right in the constitution because there was concern that in emergencies, waiting for the congressional process would mean a loss of lives, security, etc. He can actually do a number of things without congressional approval, they just have the right after certain periods of time to vote to "reign him in".

[alkemical]

Yeah that's what it's for. He has this right in the constitution because there was concern that in emergencies, waiting for the congressional process would mean a loss of lives, security, etc. He can actually do a number of things without congressional approval, they just have the right after certain periods of time to vote to "reign him in".

This removes congress period

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Well scratch Idol off the list. It's over.I seen that, some girl with a huge zit on her nose won it.
You'd think that show would have some people in makeup that could've at least toned that down some.

The President has always had this power. Lincoln used it in the Civil war. Civil Libertarians don't like it no matter who's using it, but this isn't "a Bush thing". Actually, it is "his thing" to rule as a "king" would.

[vancejohnson82]

I don't think i understand this whole thing

in an emergency situation isn't the president commander in chief and congress has no influence anyway

isn't this just reiterating that??

[broncocalijohn]

This law goes also to the next president regardless of political affiliation. With the way the illegal alien "come on in" bill is going, I can see why a president would want to act ASAP. When there is no balance of power, I can see why Americans would be worried on this act. I think how Bush has done in Emergencies already is what scares most here. If his actions were more accepted in his presidency, I wouldnt see the reaction as much. I cant blame those who dont like it.

[Beantown Bronco]

I seen that, some girl with a huge zit on her nose won it.
You'd think that show would have some people in makeup that could've at least toned that down some.

nose rings are pretty hard to cover up with make-up.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

nose rings are pretty hard to cover up with make-up.Nose rings are obvious, she wasn't wearing one in the interview I seen.

[alkemical]

I don't think i understand this whole thing

in an emergency situation isn't the president commander in chief and congress has no influence anyway

isn't this just reiterating that??

No - this supercedes the old act where congress could intervene -

[alkemical]

This law goes also to the next president regardless of political affiliation. With the way the illegal alien "come on in" bill is going, I can see why a president would want to act ASAP. When there is no balance of power, I can see why Americans would be worried on this act. I think how Bush has done in Emergencies already is what scares most here. If his actions were more accepted in his presidency, I wouldnt see the reaction as much. I cant blame those who dont like it.

Would you like a "D" to have this power?

[vancejohnson82]

That's what we need

Hillary Clinton and her raging hormones declaring an emergency after Elizabeth Hasselbeck is fired from "The View"


* this post is in no way a reflection of the views and stances of vance johnson....who is a woman's advocate and would do or say a thing to demean them

[Hotrod]

That's what we need

Hillary Clinton and her raging hormones declaring an emergency after Elizabeth Hasselbeck is fired from "The View"


* this post is in no way a reflection of the views and stances of vance johnson....who is a woman's advocate and would do or say a thing to demean them

Are you saying that Billary is a woman??? I dont take kindly to liers.


Ha!

[BroncoBuff]

Sorry Crush you had better re-read that article.


No kidding ...


I wish there were some Democrats with spines. This has Cheney megalomania written all over it, and it's the scariest thing I have ever read. The procedures we had in place when the USSR had 600 MIRVs trained on us oughtta be good enough for these Al-Quaeda dimwits.

[alkemical]

So then...

What can "We the People" do to try to pressure this act to be removed/repealed?

[Rohirrim]

So then...

What can "We the People" do to try to pressure this act to be removed/repealed?

One word: Impeach.

[Hotrod]

So then...

What can "We the People" do to try to pressure this act to be removed/repealed?

Hmmmm couple of thoughts

1. We've become too fat and lazy to do anything or even care for that matter

2. We could have a massive march on the whitehouse. A million mad Americans with one voice.............oh wait that would create an emergency and Bush would take control and kill all of us terrorists.

3. Were pretty much screwed.

[Hotrod]

We could write editorials to our local newspapers that nobody would read.

[alkemical]

One word: Impeach.

Amesj's paranoid vision tunnel:

Upon the eve of impeachment - a disaster is declared and thus the trial is suspended.

[alkemical]

Hmmmm couple of thoughts

1. We've become too fat and lazy to do anything or even care for that matter

2. We could have a massive march on the whitehouse. A million mad Americans with one voice.............oh wait that would create an emergency and Bush would take control and kill all of us terrorists.

3. Were pretty much screwed.



The pessimist in me agrees with you.

[TailgateNut]

Maybe if we were to inform the public on the American Idol show to would hear the message, not that they would understand the implications!

This is scary ****. The decider is deciding to decide whatever he wants to decide!

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Gotta love the ignorance running through this thread that W is somehow the only President to ever sign executive orders like this, or the feigned ignorance because of the party letter next to the man who signed this one. Carter held the record for most executive orders during a term until Clinton left office, William J. averaged about 1 executive order per week for 8 years. I'm sure those denouncing Bush now were just as angry in during that time period when the previous President made laws by fiat.

There are executive orders just waiting to be signed that nationalize certain sectors of American industry. If a D signs them, will those screaming now be claiming that man is acting like a king?

And FTR, I don't support any executive orders because it is law made outside the legislative process, but the utter hypocracy running through this thread is amazing.

[Hotrod]

Gotta love the ignorance running through this thread that W is somehow the only President to ever sign executive orders like this, or the feigned ignorance because of the party letter next to the man who signed this one. Carter held the record for most executive orders during a term until Clinton left office, William J. averaged about 1 executive order per week for 8 years. I'm sure those denouncing Bush now were just as angry in during that time period when the previous President made laws by fiat.

There are executive orders just waiting to be signed that nationalize certain sectors of American industry. If a D signs them, will those screaming now be claiming that man is acting like a king?

And FTR, I don't support any executive orders because it is law made outside the legislative process, but the utter hypocracy running through this thread is amazing.

Me thinks you missed the point

[Spider]

Me thinks you missed the point

shot low sheriff , the guy is on a Shetland

[Bob]

King George expands his powers once again. Can anyone recall any other president who was on a power-trip like this big headed bafoon.
When do the impeachment proceedings commence? Not soon enough for me!

Won’t that be in 2008? With the current political climate, and polarization I honestly think it is better for folks to wait this one out. If there are true crimes, (that the courts can identify, not Rosie) I would think/hope that he could be prosecuted after he is out? My guess is that after he does not have the power, the momentum will magically subside. I hope that the next person who takes the mantel of the presidency will be able to stay clear of all of the legal crap that is thrown around. I wonder if we are sadly past the point when anyone can take that job without fighting off various legal attacks the entire time. And now, that I have not strung and quartered GW, go ahead and misdirect your venom... I just hope that some of the reasons I am wrong/misdirected in my logic will be outlined, rather than being described as "the worst of the worse" as I refuse to jump on one political band wagon or another. I think that when folks are defined by a big “R” or “D” rather than “American” or “Dad” or “Christian” we spend our whole day listening (and believing) Rush & Rosie, and become unable to hear folks out.

Three years from now, if Obama takes the country down paths that I think are dangerous, or takes our country down what I think is an immoral direction I will do my best to not shout from the mountain tops IMPEACH!!! I will try to understand that he is the guy who the country elected, and we are a country of laws. It doesn’t mean I can’t complain, or speak out, but I wonder if some folks here can even listen to another’s point other than those on your bandwagon. Let the courts provide the balance they were designed to create. Complain all you want, but with so much misdirection of information it feels fringe (and dangerous) to go down the path of impeachment, when it’s likely to be someone YOU identify with that will be strung up next time. Hopefully, you can see some of the logic, but if not label me a ditto-head with a dismissive wave of the hand, and turn up the volume of Air America.

[Hogan11]

After eight years of "moral" leadership...I'm more than ready for the immoral, bring on someone who doesn't rely upon the values smokescreen to get themselves elected...someone who actually talks about real issues other than this social warrior bullshat would be nice for a change.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Gotta love the ignorance running through this thread that W is somehow the only President to ever sign executive orders like this, or the feigned ignorance because of the party letter next to the man who signed this one. Carter held the record for most executive orders during a term until Clinton left office, William J. averaged about 1 executive order per week for 8 years. I'm sure those denouncing Bush now were just as angry in during that time period when the previous President made laws by fiat.

There are executive orders just waiting to be signed that nationalize certain sectors of American industry. If a D signs them, will those screaming now be claiming that man is acting like a king?

And FTR, I don't support any executive orders because it is law made outside the legislative process, but the utter hypocracy running through this thread is amazing.Who's the ignorant one here? You want to compare numbers and the difference subject of orders? Clinton issued 364 in 8 years (Clinton's general type of order was protecting American forests, etc...) Bush has issued 233 in 6.5 years, things like this......

Bush's Passion for Secrecy
by Renée Loth
SOME MAY be tempted to dismiss this column as more self-interested whining from the media, but stick with it -- it's really about the public's right to know, not the media's. The Bush administration, resistant to scrutiny even before Sept. 11, has drawn a cloak of secrecy over its official actions that has steadily insulated it from the taxpayers. John Dean, counsel to Richard Nixon during the Watergate scandals, says the administration is using regulations and administrative actions to achieve what it could not get through Congress: an official secrets act. (http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0921-02.htm)

"Their secrecy is extreme -- not merely unjustified and excessive but obsessive," Dean writes in his book, "Worse than Watergate." Indeed, when it comes to closed government, the Bush administration makes the Nixon White House look like the public library.

Bush has expanded the number of agencies with authority to classify documents as secret, including Health and Human Services, the Environmental Protection Agency, and the Department of Agriculture. In March, 2003 he signed an excutive order allowing a broad range of documents to be kept beyond the reach of the public for up to 25 years. The number of documents classified in the Bush administration increased by over 50 percent since 2001. Freedom of Information Act requests, meanwhile, are increasingly subject to delays, costly fees, and exemptions.

The president doesn't read newspapers much, considers the press "filters" that get in the way of his message to voters, and simply rejects what they teach in journalism school: that the press is an important two-way conduit between the government and the governed.

Fine. But even on the campaign trail, supposedly the one opportunity every four years when voters get direct access to the candidates, Bush is staying under wraps. The Republicans screen ticketholders to campaign events and require signed loyalty oaths for attendance at some rallies. The home-viewing public sees nothing but adoring crowds. Anyone sneaking past the radar to protest is summarily escorted from the room.

Critics Blast Bush Order on Papers (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/1102-01.htm)
by Deb Riechmann

WASHINGTON - One historian calls it a ``disaster for history,'' but the White House insists a new executive order issued by President Bush balances the public's right to see the records of past presidents with a need to protect national security.

Advocates for the release of government documents say the executive order violates the spirit of the 1978 Presidential Records Act and will usher in a new era of secrecy for papers left behind by America's chief executives.

The White House says the order simply sets up a procedure for implementing the act and gives former presidents more authority to claim executive privilege to withhold certain papers. Absent ``compelling'' circumstances, the incumbent president will agree with a former president's decision to disclose or withhold documents, the White House says.

Bruce Craig, director of the National Coordinating Committee for the Promotion of History, claims the order is ``blatantly unlawful top to bottom.'' He predicted a quick legal challenge to the order, which probably will come up at a hearing Tuesday by a House Government Reform subcommittee. The hearing was scheduled for last month but was canceled in the aftermath of the Sept. 11 terror attacks.

Craig said that under the order, if a former president says certain papers are privileged, they will remain secret even if the sitting president disagrees. Conversely, if a sitting president says certain papers from a past administration are privileged, they will remain under wraps even if the former president disagrees.

ACLU Endorses Legislation to Overturn Bush Executive Order That Allowed Discrimination in Workplace (http://www.aclu.org/religion/govtfunding/16074prs20030625.html)(6/25/2003)

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: media@dcaclu.org

WASHINGTON - On the 62d anniversary of the first Presidential executive order banning government-funded religious discrimination, the American Civil Liberties Union today endorsed new legislation that would void President Bush's executive order that imposed by White House fiat much of his plan for government-funded religion. The ACLU said that the bill would stop blatant discrimination by religious groups in how they hire and to whom they provide taxpayer-funded services.

"Congress has rejected taxpayer-funded religious discrimination since President Bush took office," said Christopher Anders, an ACLU Legislative Counsel. "But rather than compromise and work within the political process, the President decided to circumvent public and congressional opinion in his quest to allow religious discrimination in the workplace. This new legislation would restore to the Congress its proper role in setting national policy."

Rep. Bobby Scott, D-VA, unveiled his legislation at a Capitol Hill news conference this morning. The ACLU said the Scott legislation would restore the civil liberties protections that President Bush seeks to take away through his faith-based program for government-funded religion.

[Spider]

Bush is the worst thing to happen to America since the Boy bands including the Jackson 5

[W*GS]

the current failure of all levels of government is the reason behind this action. You should be worried about more than just the president

Give that man a ceegar!

Outta da park...

[TailgateNut]

Won’t that be in 2008? With the current political climate, and polarization I honestly think it is better for folks to wait this one out. If there are true crimes, (that the courts can identify, not Rosie) I would think/hope that he could be prosecuted after he is out? My guess is that after he does not have the power, the momentum will magically subside. I hope that the next person who takes the mantel of the presidency will be able to stay clear of all of the legal crap that is thrown around. I wonder if we are sadly past the point when anyone can take that job without fighting off various legal attacks the entire time. And now, that I have not strung and quartered GW, go ahead and misdirect your venom... I just hope that some of the reasons I am wrong/misdirected in my logic will be outlined, rather than being described as "the worst of the worse" as I refuse to jump on one political band wagon or another. I think that when folks are defined by a big “R” or “D” rather than “American” or “Dad” or “Christian” we spend our whole day listening (and believing) Rush & Rosie, and become unable to hear folks out.

Three years from now, if Obama takes the country down paths that I think are dangerous, or takes our country down what I think is an immoral direction I will do my best to not shout from the mountain tops IMPEACH!!! I will try to understand that he is the guy who the country elected, and we are a country of laws. It doesn’t mean I can’t complain, or speak out, but I wonder if some folks here can even listen to another’s point other than those on your bandwagon. Let the courts provide the balance they were designed to create. Complain all you want, but with so much misdirection of information it feels fringe (and dangerous) to go down the path of impeachment, when it’s likely to be someone YOU identify with that will be strung up next time. Hopefully, you can see some of the logic, but if not label me a ditto-head with a dismissive wave of the hand, and turn up the volume of Air America.


1. I don't think it's better to wait this one out. Bush/America is akin to Termites/Wood.
2. "if there are true crimes"? A person has to be either a staunch supporter or gullible to believe crimes have not been commited. Sorry, but I have raised children and can see a lie when it's thrown in my face. I agree to let the courts decide, but do it now and don't accept any "memory losses" as testimony, and no one should be excused from appearing and testifying.
3. I do read the points and views of others, but I do not have to agree with their failed logic and their continued support of what has becaome a national disaster.
4. I also am not a "bandwagon jumper", I support good decisions based on facts and what is "good" for the US, but frown on failure, lies, blatant abuse of the laws, favoritism, mismanagement and many more negative attributes which are, and will be Bush's legacy.
5. I especially like your "Let the courts provide the balance" comment. You must be kidding! Just take an unbiased look at the Gonzales "MESS". This administration has surrounded themselves with a group of toy soldiers which the manuever at will. If he (Gonzales) has as bad a memory as he wants us to believe he should never have been appointed to his current position.
I can go on, but it's apparant that some will always support Bush and Co regadless of the damaging effects of their reign!

[REB]

The Federal Government as a WHOLE has become something forefathers never wanted when they designed this country.

Quoted for truth!

[alkemical]

I'm relieved that this thread got moved from the "mane" page. We need more room out there for paternity suits and downloading music.....

[Hotrod]

I'm relieved that this thread got moved from the "mane" page. We need more room out there for paternity suits and downloading music.....

Its a perfect example of whats wrong in America. People either dont care or dont understand. Prolly a mix of both.

The media has made mush pies of the average Americans brain. Were so freaking spoiled its sick. I think its the fact we've been such a strong nation that people just figure nothing and no one can touch us. How wrong can we be......stay tuned and find out.

[alkemical]

Its a perfect example of whats wrong in America. People either dont care or dont understand. Prolly a mix of both.

The media has made mush pies of the average Americans brain. Were so freaking spoiled its sick. I think its the fact we've been such a strong nation that people just figure nothing and no one can touch us. How wrong can we be......stay tuned and find out.

This is why i get angry and say that "we" get what "we" deserve -

[TailgateNut]

Its a perfect example of whats wrong in America. People either dont care or dont understand. Prolly a mix of both.

The media has made mush pies of the average Americans brain. Were so freaking spoiled its sick. I think its the fact we've been such a strong nation that people just figure nothing and no one can touch us. How wrong can we be......stay tuned and find out.

The American family today for the most part lives in a bubble and only cares when something affects their "own little world", and many, if not most are not in tune with current affairs other than who's winning American Idol, or who will marry the bachelor......blah,blah,blah...
"We" don't, as a whole concern ourselves with those "minor issues" like education of our children and their ability to compete, global trade issues and relations and their effects on our not so distant future, and the realities of those who are affected by current policies as long as we realize no negative impacts on our own little "cushy" lives.
Yes, they'll fly their flags, and sport nice little magnets on the minivans, but they are clueless as to what ignorance has done to our country!

[Bronco Bob]

We could write editorials to our local newspapers that nobody would read.

Or post messages to the Orange Mane, where maybe a dozen people will
read it, and half of them agree with W's every move anyway and would
back him no matter what he did.

[Bronco Bob]

Gotta love the ignorance running through this thread that W is somehow the only President to ever sign executive orders like this, or the feigned ignorance because of the party letter next to the man who signed this one. Carter held the record for most executive orders during a term until Clinton left office, William J. averaged about 1 executive order per week for 8 years. I'm sure those denouncing Bush now were just as angry in during that time period when the previous President made laws by fiat.


Here's one, for example.

[Hotrod]

Here's one, for example.

Yep.

Althou I fully admit to voting for Bush twice :nono: I also tried to defend him based on the fact hes our leader and one would hope he knows more then joe public. You know the intell and having a "birds eye" view and info were not privy to. NEVER AGAIN for any party or leader.

I will never again put my faith behind anyone based on party or just the fact hes our leader. Get results or get the **** out.

[alkemical]

Yep.

Althou I fully admit to voting for Bush twice :nono: I also tried to defend him based on the fact hes our leader and one would hope he knows more then joe public. You know the intell and having a "birds eye" view and info were not privy to. NEVER AGAIN for any party or leader.

I will never again put my faith behind anyone based on party or just the fact hes our leader. Get results or get the **** out.

Great post hotrod. YOU are a fine American.

[REB]

Yep.

Althou I fully admit to voting for Bush twice :nono: I also tried to defend him based on the fact hes our leader and one would hope he knows more then joe public. You know the intell and having a "birds eye" view and info were not privy to. NEVER AGAIN for any party or leader.

I will never again put my faith behind anyone based on party or just the fact hes our leader. Get results or get the **** out.

He's not my leader. The North Koreans, Libyans, Chinese etc have leaders.

He's the elected president of my country, not my leader. I'll lead myself and my family. He can lead the military in a time of war.

I'm not trying to bust your balls here Hotrod :thumbsup:

[Hotrod]

He's not my leader. The North Koreans, Libyans, Chinese etc have leaders.

He's the elected president of my country, not my leader. I'll lead myself and my family. He can lead the military in a time of war.

I'm not trying to bust your balls here Hotrod :thumbsup:

LOL I know you'd never do that

[Rohirrim]

He's not my leader. The North Koreans, Libyans, Chinese etc have leaders.

He's the elected president of my country, not my leader. I'll lead myself and my family. He can lead the military in a time of war.



Unless he can hire a "War Czar" to take the heat for him.

[TailgateNut]

Unless he can hire a "War Czar" to take the heat for him.

If ya can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen! War Czar Hilarious! Just the term makes me cringe!

[Rohirrim]

If ya can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen! War Czar Hilarious! Just the term makes me cringe!

The funniest part of this was how many retired generals turned him down. :giggle: This job has "scapegoat" written all over it.

[Bob]

1. I don't think it's better to wait this one out. Bush/America is akin to Termites/Wood.
2. "if there are true crimes"? A person has to be either a staunch supporter or gullible to believe crimes have not been commited. Sorry, but I have raised children and can see a lie when it's thrown in my face. I agree to let the courts decide, but do it now and don't accept any "memory losses" as testimony, and no one should be excused from appearing and testifying.
3. I do read the points and views of others, but I do not have to agree with their failed logic and their continued support of what has becaome a national disaster.
4. I also am not a "bandwagon jumper", I support good decisions based on facts and what is "good" for the US, but frown on failure, lies, blatant abuse of the laws, favoritism, mismanagement and many more negative attributes which are, and will be Bush's legacy.
5. I especially like your "Let the courts provide the balance" comment. You must be kidding! Just take an unbiased look at the Gonzales "MESS". This administration has surrounded themselves with a group of toy soldiers which the manuever at will. If he (Gonzales) has as bad a memory as he wants us to believe he should never have been appointed to his current position.
I can go on, but it's apparant that some will always support Bush and Co regadless of the damaging effects of their reign!

Thanks for your thoughtful response. As a conservative, I have really struggled with Bush on so many levels. I was one of the few folks (among the circles I hang out with) that thought that going into Iraq was not a good choice -- I did not feel threatened by Saddam, I had concerns about the hornet-nest affect, but also I was concerned about how, as a nation, we were not sold on the idea. The resolve issue again, if you are going to go to war, a country needs to be united, it should be declaired. Iran, right now is more threatening to me now, and I wonder if we hadnt gone in to Iraq, how the dynamics would be different, and we would be better positioned on several levels to deal with the threat.

But now that we are there, this issue is too complex for me to work out, and all of the implication, my cystal ball is broken to see all of the implication -- I do admittedly worry about the blood bath that might/likley follow after we do pull out...

[Rohirrim]

Thanks for your thoughtful response. As a conservative, I have really struggled with Bush on so many levels. I was one of the few folks (among the circles I hang out with) that thought that going into Iraq was not a good choice -- I did not feel threatened by Saddam, I had concerns about the hornet-nest affect, but also I was concerned about how, as a nation, we were not sold on the idea. The resolve issue again, if you are going to go to war, a country needs to be united, it should be declaired. Iran, right now is more threatening to me now, and I wonder if we hadnt gone in to Iraq, how the dynamics would be different, and we would be better positioned on several levels to deal with the threat.

But now that we are there, this issue is too complex for me to work out, and all of the implication, my cystal ball is broken to see all of the implication -- I do admittedly worry about the blood bath that might/likley follow after we do pull out...

You are following a false paradigm provided for you by Bush's PR pros. The "blood bath" is happening right now and will continue when we leave. Our presence isn't changing anything. I saw an interview with a soldier a few days ago who told how they would spend a month controlling a given area and then, when they moved on to a different area, things would go back like they were "...in a matter of hours," in the previous area.

The other lie from Bush's PR is in regards to Al Queda attacks on the U.S. There are many militias attacking U.S. troops, not just Al Queda. In fact, the Sunni foreign fighters in Iraq (which make up Al Queda) are spending more time attacking random Shiite targets and specific Mahdi army targets. That's why, when John Boehner gets up on the Senate floor and starts weeping about how, if we leave Iraq, we'll just be giving Al Queda a place to build more bases or when Bush says they'll use bases in Iraq to "...attack your children," you know they are bald faced liars.

Why? Because the second most powerful military force in Iraq besides the U.S. is Sadr's Mahdi army. Once we leave Iraq, they will NEVER allow Al Queda to remain. They will not only not allow Al Queda to build bases in Iraq, they will kill every one of them who can't get out of the country. It is Al Queda who have been blowing up the Shiite mosques and marketplaces. Do you think a Shiite dominated Iraqi government will allow them to build bases in Iraq? All we get from Bush is lie, upon lie, upon lie.

[TailgateNut]

Thanks for your thoughtful response. As a conservative, I have really struggled with Bush on so many levels. I was one of the few folks (among the circles I hang out with) that thought that going into Iraq was not a good choice -- I did not feel threatened by Saddam, I had concerns about the hornet-nest affect, but also I was concerned about how, as a nation, we were not sold on the idea. The resolve issue again, if you are going to go to war, a country needs to be united, it should be declaired. Iran, right now is more threatening to me now, and I wonder if we hadnt gone in to Iraq, how the dynamics would be different, and we would be better positioned on several levels to deal with the threat.

But now that we are there, this issue is too complex for me to work out, and all of the implication, my cystal ball is broken to see all of the implication -- I do admittedly worry about the blood bath that might/likley follow after we do pull out...



I don't have a crytall ball which predicts the future with accurancy, but it does show the present policy as being flawed. The war is as some have called it a game of "wack-a-mole". You kill 'em here, and more pop up there, so you go there, and more pop up where you just left. Your enemy may look like an ally, and someone who is an ally may appear as an enemy. It is the worst condition a soldier can find himself in. BAD F-ING SITUATION. Hence my comparisons to Vietnam.
As far as the Blood bath after our departure. It will occur regardless. I think the one reason Bush doesn't want to pull out are his ties with BIG OIL. Cheney has paid his dues to his supporters. Halliburton is still laughing all the way to the bank, but Bush's oil buddies have yet to reailize the expected windfalls and contracts. Sure oil prices and profits are at all time highs, but just think of what could be if the master plan were to come to fruition.

[Bob]

I do think there will be killing on a massive scale when we pull out. I expect that total number who are killed will dwarf the numbers that have died since we went in there. If I turn out to be wrong, I will fess up gladly, and learn a good lession, and have to rethink some of my assumptions. if I am right... wells lets hope that I am not. I Hope I am wrong, but I dont think so. In Vietnam (for anyone who is an expert on the subject) what were the results in terms of death shortly after our pull-out?

It only makes sense that there will be a power vacuume, that will be filled after we leave, resulting in wiping out the smaller, weaker group. The Majority in Iraq felt oppressed under Sadam, so it only makes sense that they will consolidate through force.

Like I said, we will see