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View Full Version : Niners and other fans discuss the Portis for Bailey trade


Kaylore
05-24-2007, 01:42 AM
http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard/showthread.php?t=26472

Saw this on Broncomania and brought it over here.

Get a load of the Redskin fan playing apologist. It's really pathetic the angle he takes to try and argue it was a wash.

epicSocialism4tw
05-24-2007, 02:03 AM
I think that this was the second-best trade in Bronco history. The #1 is obvious.

I think that Champ will have been the best in NFL history by the time he hangs em up.

I'll give you Portis and a #2 for him. Heck, make that Portis and two #1's.

Los Broncos
05-24-2007, 02:14 AM
Skin fan should shut up already, you got screwed.

watermock
05-24-2007, 02:14 AM
The funniest thing is that Bly kinda wanted to go to Washington. We sedated him with $ and I don't think he had ever been to Denver or our facilities. It's funny how they are whining how the secondary has sucked since Champ and Smoot left.

Just as we predicted Gibbs has run Portis in the ground and he dug a bigger grave with his rediculous Vick comments. He's not even a teammate.

Why didn't he just come out and say that drug dealing is fine if it's behind closed doors, that it's OK to carry a concealed weapon and have a fake kennel? Goodell was not amused.

Now we parlayed two busts into Bly, and snagged Travis after he was released pending an 8.3 million dollar roster bonus or whatever.

So we parlayed Portis into Champ, Bly and got Henry for virtually nothing except salary. 22.5 isn't too much for a proven back.

So IMO, it boils down to this: Portis, Tater and Foster for Champ, Bly and Henry.

When are they going to arrenst Sundy for rape?

BroncosBeerMan
05-24-2007, 03:09 AM
And Tatum Bell plus other scrubs got them Dre' Bly.

Who coincidentally wanted to be a redskin instead. The cycle is complete. LOL.


That's the funniest part!

Florida_Bronco
05-24-2007, 03:24 AM
That's the funniest part!

hahahaha, that is pretty good.

(Jae)
05-24-2007, 03:43 AM
lol, good lord the Denial by the Redskin fan.
Pure comedy.

BroncoBuff
05-24-2007, 05:05 AM
For those with dialup ... my favorite exchange: It started with RedskinsFan saying the trade was "a wash." He got beat down by some very savvy 49er fans:

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/3197/58312476np8.jpg

Northman
05-24-2007, 06:10 AM
That's the funniest part!

I agree, i stopped reading after that. That was all that needed to be said. :rofl:

MechanicalBull
05-24-2007, 06:31 AM
The one thing that bothers me about this trade is the majority of the media and fans outside of Denver think it was just Portis for Bailey. Everyone forgets we got a 2nd round pick(Tatum) who turned out to be an alright rb.

Odysseus
05-24-2007, 06:56 AM
As much as we knock on Tatum we got some miles out of that guy and THEN have enough of a player to get Dre Bly.

BroncoInferno
05-24-2007, 07:52 AM
The most desperate move was pulling out the "Bailey is a womanizer" rumor (and I'm sure Portis is the epitome of fidelity). Even if true, how in the world is that at all relevant to who got the better end of the deal?

gunns
05-24-2007, 08:06 AM
The most desperate move was pulling out the "Bailey is a womanizer" rumor (and I'm sure Portis is the epitome of fidelity). Even if true, how in the world is that at all relevant to who got the better end of the deal?

I laughed at that one. He gets called for going off topic then tries to defend himself by saying he said it was just a rumor. Then why bring it up and what did it have to do with the topic? He was scraping the bottom of the barrel to try and prove his point.

Broncos4Life
05-24-2007, 08:36 AM
http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard/showthread.php?t=26472

Saw this on Broncomania and brought it over here.

Get a load of the Redskin fan playing apologist. It's really pathetic the angle he takes to try and argue it was a wash.

Wow!
Good find. Pretty entertaining stuff. That skin fan was in some serious denial man. That niner fan from denver put it all into perspective pretty well though.

Broncos4Life
05-24-2007, 08:45 AM
The funniest thing is that Bly kinda wanted to go to Washington. We sedated him with $ and I don't think he had ever been to Denver or our facilities. It's funny how they are whining how the secondary has sucked since Champ and Smoot left.

Just as we predicted Gibbs has run Portis in the ground and he dug a bigger grave with his rediculous Vick comments. He's not even a teammate.

Why didn't he just come out and say that drug dealing is fine if it's behind closed doors, that it's OK to carry a concealed weapon and have a fake kennel? Goodell was not amused.

Now we parlayed two busts into Bly, and snagged Travis after he was released pending an 8.3 million dollar roster bonus or whatever.

So we parlayed Portis into Champ, Bly and got Henry for virtually nothing except salary. 22.5 isn't too much for a proven back.

So IMO, it boils down to this: Portis, Tater and Foster for Champ, Bly and Henry.

When are they going to arrenst Sundy for rape?

Good post Mock.

I remember myself and many other Maners were predicting that he wouldn't last long in that system. It's rediculous that it was even thought by Gibbs that Portis could run well in that offense. He plainly doesn't. Sure he breaks a good run about once every 4 games or something. But wasn't he breaking one or two in our offense like every game?

Yeah, it was a rape. With no vasoline.

Hogan11
05-24-2007, 09:41 AM
It couldn't happen to a better franchise IMHO...I absolutely hate Washington.

..and to think some here were so disgruntled with the trade that sent Beltman away initally that they went that bullshat route of making the Redskins their "second favorite team"....you know who you are and you got what you deserved. Ha!

Rohirrim
05-24-2007, 09:46 AM
Nice Sig, Khan. :thumbsup:

WoodMan
05-24-2007, 10:24 AM
As much as we knock on Tatum we got some miles out of that guy and THEN have enough of a player to get Dre Bly.

No kidding, we got some miles out of him. ;D Two years ago he and MA put up 2k on the ground. Last year, Tatum was injured and it showed. I think his fumbles at critical times and Mike Bells improvement, were his ticket out of town. Henry is a better back than Tatum anyway. The Broncos continue to get better talent.

frerottenextelway
05-24-2007, 11:21 AM
Records Since '04
Washington: 21-27
Denver: 32-16

Rushing Yards Since '04
Washington: 6164
Denver: 7024

Interceptions In 2006
Washington Redskins: 6
Champ Bailey: 10

Kaylore
05-24-2007, 11:41 AM
Nice Sig, Khan. :thumbsup:

Thanks, it took awhile but I really like it and am already getting avatar requests for it. Ha!

And for those asking about why Hixon isn't listed, well frankly there wasn't room to fit his greatness so I left him off. I would need a whole sig just for him to do his greatness justice. 8')

DeuceOfClub
05-24-2007, 12:16 PM
Nobody mentioned the fact the Redskins got day-raped in that deal!
Seriously, who gives a top CB in his prime for a RB? And throw a 2nd round pick for good measure???
Unless it is an LT caliber player and he comes with a “no injuries guaranteed” certificate you are a fool.

Dagmar
05-24-2007, 12:17 PM
I wish we could have some good ol' football threads like that one...

Tredici
05-24-2007, 12:38 PM
The most desperate move was pulling out the "Bailey is a womanizer" rumor (and I'm sure Portis is the epitome of fidelity). Even if true, how in the world is that at all relevant to who got the better end of the deal?

Actually Bailey is a womanizer. Well, if that is what you call keeping an extra one on the side. Hey, Cheerleaders sometimes need a rent free apartment too...

BigPlayShay
05-24-2007, 12:42 PM
Actually Bailey is a womanizer. Well, if that is what you call keeping an extra one on the side. Hey, Cheerleaders sometimes need a rent free apartment too...

Pretty certain Bailey is divorced, in fact I know that he is, so he can certainly have whatever he likes now. Or is this extra one what lead to that?

BroncoInferno
05-24-2007, 01:20 PM
Actually Bailey is a womanizer. Well, if that is what you call keeping an extra one on the side. Hey, Cheerleaders sometimes need a rent free apartment too...

Maybe so, but my point is that in either case it is not relevant to who got the better end of the trade. Personally, I could not care less, and I thought it was funny that the Skins fan somehow thought this was a valid point in the Skins favor.

usedupbraids
05-24-2007, 01:23 PM
We won the trade because we got the best shut down DB up to date.But i still love Portis hes my baby

epicSocialism4tw
05-24-2007, 01:25 PM
Here's the clincher....

What would either player bring in a trade now?

Bailey would fetch as much as any other superstar player in their prime. I can only think of a few players that would bring the type of return that he would. Only a couple would bring more: Manning and Brady.

Portis on the other hand would bring maybe a second rounder?

usedupbraids
05-24-2007, 01:28 PM
Here's the clincher....

What would either player bring in a trade now?

Bailey would fetch as much as any other superstar player in their prime. I can only think of a few players that would bring the type of return that he would. Only a couple would bring more: Manning and Brady.

Portis on the other hand would bring maybe a second rounder?

:thumbs: Yup Broncos will just say NO! if the skins Offer Portis for Champ now.;D

Clockwork Orange
05-24-2007, 01:30 PM
Portis on the other hand would bring maybe a second rounder?

Doubtful. The Colts & Seahawks tried to trade Edgerrin James & Shaun Alexander after they were franchised and neither could get anyone to pony up a 2nd round pick.

boltaneer
05-24-2007, 01:32 PM
Had the Broncos given up their 2nd round pick in that trade and not the Redskins, it would still have been a lopsided trade.

I hate Daniel Snyder.

Kaylore
05-24-2007, 01:37 PM
Had the Broncos given up their 2nd round pick in that trade and not the Redskins, it would still have been a lopsided trade.

I hate Daniel Snyder.

I think screwing the NFC East is something the AFC West has made an art form. Whether Rivers works out or not, that doozie you guys pulled on the Giants is ranked right up there with this one. Here's to fleecing the NFC East! :alky:

socalorado
05-24-2007, 01:41 PM
I think screwing the NFC East is something the AFC West has made an art form. Whether Rivers works out or not, that doozie you guys pulled on the Giants is ranked right up there with this one. Here's to fleecing the NFC East! :alky:

I agree!!

BTW, Kaylore you NEED to put that "ARMED AND READY" logo on the back of a t-shirt!!!!! $20.00
i'll take a large please!!!!

usedupbraids
05-24-2007, 01:42 PM
I agree!!

BTW, Kaylore you NEED to put that "ARMED AND READY" logo on the back of a t-shirt!!!!! $20.00
i'll take a large please!!!!

What? :rofl:

Beantown Bronco
05-24-2007, 01:45 PM
Doubtful. The Colts & Seahawks tried to trade Edgerrin James & Shaun Alexander after they were franchised and neither could get anyone to pony up a 2nd round pick.

That still mystifies me. Nobody would give squat for Shaun Alexander, but Deion Branch fetches a first rounder. Amazing, really.

socalorado
05-24-2007, 01:45 PM
What? :rofl:

Sorry dude, your uh.....logos....uh arent as cool as Kaylores.
It just looks good. Hilarious!

epicSocialism4tw
05-24-2007, 01:45 PM
Doubtful. The Colts & Seahawks tried to trade Edgerrin James & Shaun Alexander after they were franchised and neither could get anyone to pony up a 2nd round pick.

True.

I also forgot to take into account that this is Snyder we are talking about, so Portis would bring pennies on the dollar.

Clockwork Orange
05-24-2007, 01:50 PM
I also forgot to take into account that this is Snyder we are talking about, so Portis would bring pennies on the dollar.

Exactly. Just look at what Snyder has given up for guys like Brandon Lloyd and TJ Duckett.

epicSocialism4tw
05-24-2007, 01:55 PM
Exactly. Just look at what Snyder has given up for guys like Brandon Lloyd and TJ Duckett.

Okay, so I feel safe in saying that Bailey would bring at least two #1's, and probably another veteran starter.

Portis would bring a third or fourth round pick given his contract situation and what he has proven on the field.

Who won the trade? If you call that a wash, you are living in la la land.

bronco610
05-24-2007, 01:59 PM
Okay, so I feel safe in saying that Bailey would bring at least two #1's, and probably another veteran starter.

Portis would bring a third or fourth round pick given his contract situation and what he has proven on the field.

Who won the trade? If you call that a wash, you are living in la la land.

La la land and Washington D.C. Its the same place isnt it?ROFL!

watermock
05-24-2007, 02:08 PM
God Damn Pubiak...he raped Cleveland!

He traded out, got a first next year, then traded back up and lost 4 spots and a second I think.

He's evil I say...EVIL.. Pubes moved down 4 spots and snagged Clevelands first next year. The Master Jedi has tought him Well.

I would of loved to trade then trade back up into 26 and get another first rounder from a crap team.

Kudos go where Kudos belong. Nice job Pubes.

Clockwork Orange
05-24-2007, 02:09 PM
God Damn Pubiak...he raped Cleveland!

He traded out, got a first next year, then traded back up and lost 4 spots and a second I think.

He's evil I say...EVIL.. Pubes moved down 4 spots and snagged Clevelands first next year. The Master Jedi has tought him Well.

I would of loved to trade then trade back up into 26 and get another first rounder from a crap team.

Kudos go where Kudos belong. Nice job Pubes.

That was Dallas that made that trade, not Houston.

usedupbraids
05-24-2007, 02:18 PM
God Damn Pubiak...he raped Cleveland!

He traded out, got a first next year, then traded back up and lost 4 spots and a second I think.

He's evil I say...EVIL.. Pubes moved down 4 spots and snagged Clevelands first next year. The Master Jedi has tought him Well.

I would of loved to trade then trade back up into 26 and get another first rounder from a crap team.

Kudos go where Kudos belong. Nice job Pubes.

Shannhon apprentice has the force with him thwack

Kaylore
05-24-2007, 02:19 PM
God Damn Pubiak...he raped Cleveland!

He traded out, got a first next year, then traded back up and lost 4 spots and a second I think.

He's evil I say...EVIL.. Pubes moved down 4 spots and snagged Clevelands first next year. The Master Jedi has tought him Well.

I would of loved to trade then trade back up into 26 and get another first rounder from a crap team.

Kudos go where Kudos belong. Nice job Pubes.

No he didn't, Mock. I wish you would quit whining about that. Also, if you're going to whine, at least get your facts straight.

BroncoMan4ever
05-24-2007, 03:34 PM
wat a dumbass saying that trade was a wash. denver raped washington in that deal, getting not only the best CB in the league but also a 2nd round pick which got Tatum Bell who was traded (along with dead weight Foster) to get Bly and give DEnver the best set of CB in the league.

MechanicalBull
05-24-2007, 06:26 PM
You know until reading that Skins fans message I totally forgot that Washington had the great Al Saunders. How'd that one pay off? Ha!

KipCorrington25
05-24-2007, 06:55 PM
The poll is like 94% in favor of Denver and these are neutral fans...

That's all that really needs to be said.

Requiem
05-24-2007, 06:58 PM
You can't teach an old down-syndromed Redskin fan new tricks. :(

USMCBladerunner
05-24-2007, 07:45 PM
God Damn Pubiak...he raped Cleveland!

He traded out, got a first next year, then traded back up and lost 4 spots and a second I think.

He's evil I say...EVIL.. Pubes moved down 4 spots and snagged Clevelands first next year. The Master Jedi has tought him Well.

I would of loved to trade then trade back up into 26 and get another first rounder from a crap team.

Kudos go where Kudos belong. Nice job Pubes.

what in the HELL are you talking about? You can't be this confused for reals can you?

sixtimeseight
05-24-2007, 07:51 PM
You obviously haven't read enough of his posts. That post is well thought out and coherently written compared to his usual drunken tripe.

Spider
05-24-2007, 08:57 PM
That still mystifies me. Nobody would give squat for Shaun Alexander, but Deion Branch fetches a first rounder. Amazing, really.

I think it is the rep , the same one ricky Waters picked up when he refused to dive for a ball in a game , Alexander is looked as an outside runner for the most part , not real tough .........

dark_hawk
05-24-2007, 09:25 PM
I think it is the rep , the same one ricky Waters picked up when he refused to dive for a ball in a game , Alexander is looked as an outside runner for the most part , not real tough .........

may also have to do with the average rb life span being relatively short compared to a wr. that and rb is one of the easier positions to make the switch from college to the nfl

Spider
05-24-2007, 09:29 PM
may also have to do with the average rb life span being relatively short compared to a wr. that and rb is one of the easier positions to make the switch from college to the nfl

add that with what I said ....... kinda tough to get rid of that baggage ...... I remember the heat Ricky Waters took over his comment when he was an Eagle ,It stuck with him

bronco militia
10-25-2013, 09:45 PM
Remembering 'The Trade'

Nearly 10 years ago, the Broncos and Redskins finalized one of the most memorable player-for-player trades in NFL history. Take an in-depth look back at how Champ Bailey ended up in Denver.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/Remembering-The-Trade/3abbaba0-0779-4623-9254-9aafe8d3de14

Kaylore
10-25-2013, 10:58 PM
Old thread is old. Cito still thinks we lost on this trade because "Champ didn't bring us a trophy." Yet somehow that means the Redskins won the trade even though they didn't win either so....

Rohirrim
10-25-2013, 11:27 PM
Lots of good old posters who are gone. :pity:

barryr
10-26-2013, 06:59 AM
It was a good trade for the Broncos. I have had my criticisms of the way the Broncos have used Bailey over the years. So many years just put him on the one side of the field and rarely used him to cover exclusively the other team's best WR all game. Heck, even on just 3rd and obvious passing downs would have been nice. I don't know the numbers, but rarely has the Bronco defense ranked anywhere near the top end since Bailey has been a Bronco. It has usually been near the bottom, which is not his fault, but has shown how bad they have been at drafting for defense for so many years.

TheChamp24
10-26-2013, 09:23 AM
I think people were thinking Washington won the trade when Tatum Bell was doing nothing for us, Champ Bailey had some pretty bad games early on in national TV games(Chad Johnson and Joey Porter come to mind) while Portis was doing relatively well for the Redskins.
Portis ended up being a solid RB in Washington, the injuries just cut away 3 years from him. As it stands now, he has 11,000+ total yards and 80 total TD's. He probably would've had another 1,500 yards, maybe 5-10 TD's more. I'm just pointing this out there because I see a lot of people talk Portis down on how he didn't do much outside of Denver.

Now for Champ, he ended up being runner up in the DPOY award twice, should've won at least one of the years. His best year, Jason Taylor was having an unbelievably beastly year as well. He made a great play against Tom Brady in the playoffs, shouldn't have let up though at the end. 50+ career interceptions, 4 TD's scored, 12 time Pro Bowler and 3 time All Pro 1st team selection.

One player is a HOF lock, the other had a good career but nowhere near HOF at this point.
Add in the fact Tatum Bell helped give us a speed back to compliment Droughns/Anderson, the trade was in our favor.

DENVERDUI55
10-26-2013, 09:31 AM
The trade was lopsided and could of even been worse if Shanny would of taken the best RB in the draft instead of the mediocre LB.

Ironlung
10-26-2013, 10:00 AM
Old thread is old. Cito still thinks we lost on this trade because "Champ didn't bring us a trophy." Yet somehow that means the Redskins won the trade even though they didn't win either so....

He has also argued Denver lost this trade because Portis has more td's than Bailey. How retarded.

Kid A
10-26-2013, 10:09 AM
A) Good player at a position that the league is very deep in had a string of good seasons.

B) Hall of Fame player at a position that the league has very few stars at, playing at an almost unbelievably dominate level for three years, and a top 3 level at his position level for most the rest of his time in Denver.

Rausch 2.0
10-26-2013, 10:21 AM
As a Chiefs fan I always hated it.

At the time a shut-down corner that could play any coverage for a HB....

Vegas_Bronco
10-26-2013, 10:49 AM
Id do this trade 10xs over again with a CB 3/4 of Champs quality.

frerottenextelway
10-26-2013, 11:12 AM
I think people were thinking Washington won the trade when Tatum Bell was doing nothing for us, Champ Bailey had some pretty bad games early on in national TV games(Chad Johnson and Joey Porter come to mind) while Portis was doing relatively well for the Redskins.
Portis ended up being a solid RB in Washington, the injuries just cut away 3 years from him. As it stands now, he has 11,000+ total yards and 80 total TD's. He probably would've had another 1,500 yards, maybe 5-10 TD's more. I'm just pointing this out there because I see a lot of people talk Portis down on how he didn't do much outside of Denver.

Now for Champ, he ended up being runner up in the DPOY award twice, should've won at least one of the years. His best year, Jason Taylor was having an unbelievably beastly year as well. He made a great play against Tom Brady in the playoffs, shouldn't have let up though at the end. 50+ career interceptions, 4 TD's scored, 12 time Pro Bowler and 3 time All Pro 1st team selection.

One player is a HOF lock, the other had a good career but nowhere near HOF at this point.
Add in the fact Tatum Bell helped give us a speed back to compliment Droughns/Anderson, the trade was in our favor.

Didn't Champ end up getting a pick 6 in that Chad Johnson game? I remember that being one crazy game.

TheChamp24
10-26-2013, 11:23 AM
Didn't Champ end up getting a pick 6 in that Chad Johnson game? I remember that being one crazy game.

Nope. That was a terrible game, http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200410250cin.htm

We were heavy favorites, 5-1 going into the game against the 1-4 Bengals.
Chad ended up having a huge game, 7 catches for 149 yards and a touchdown, which was on a 50 yard catch that he burned Champ on, when Champ tripped and fell, Chad also got another 50 yard catch on Champ as well.
Champ did get an interception in the game, from what I remember it was in the red zone actually undercutting a quick slant.
Also of note, some weird playcalling and timeout usage.
End of first half, under a minute, we run the ball for 9 yards and spend a timeout. Next play, another run, Droughns fumbles, Cincy recovers. Just, why call a timeout to do a running play.
Then on one possession in the second half, we burn 2 timeouts in getting a field goal.

Broncos4Life
10-26-2013, 12:19 PM
Didn't Champ end up getting a pick 6 in that Chad Johnson game? I remember that being one crazy game.

Champ got a pick 6 against the 9ers on Dec 31st, off a tipped ball. Think that was the yr after.

DENVERDUI55
10-26-2013, 03:37 PM
Nope. That was a terrible game, http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200410250cin.htm

We were heavy favorites, 5-1 going into the game against the 1-4 Bengals.
Chad ended up having a huge game, 7 catches for 149 yards and a touchdown, which was on a 50 yard catch that he burned Champ on, when Champ tripped and fell, Chad also got another 50 yard catch on Champ as well.
Champ did get an interception in the game, from what I remember it was in the red zone actually undercutting a quick slant.
Also of note, some weird playcalling and timeout usage.
End of first half, under a minute, we run the ball for 9 yards and spend a timeout. Next play, another run, Droughns fumbles, Cincy recovers. Just, why call a timeout to do a running play.
Then on one possession in the second half, we burn 2 timeouts in getting a field goal.

That game sucked. Denver got their ass whooped and put them in the yearly shanny tailspin after the hot start.

rmsanger
10-26-2013, 04:18 PM
No more debate needs to be made on this topic, clearly CB > CP.

manchambo
10-26-2013, 04:47 PM
Nobody in their right mind thinks Portis was a better player than Bailey. And, given the short shelf life of RBs and the importance of passing in the modern league, I would take CB over RB every day of the week. So this is really a no brainer to me.

That said, Portis was a special player and it was a shame to see him go.

Guess Who
10-26-2013, 06:48 PM
Nobody in their right mind thinks Portis was a better player than Bailey. And, given the short shelf life of RBs and the importance of passing in the modern league, I would take CB over RB every day of the week. So this is really a no brainer to me.

That said, Portis was a special player and it was a shame to see him go.

I can see why a skins fan think it was an even trade. Portis was a warrior for them and he was very well liked. When Gibbs was coaching Portis even became more of a power back.

The fact is if neither of them get a SB ring then does it matter?

Kid A
10-26-2013, 07:06 PM
The fact is if neither of them get a SB ring then does it matter?

That's getting a little philosophical. E.g., did Marino's career matter? Don't Elway's pre-Super Bowl accomplishments mean something on their own? SB is the ultimate goal, but there is certainly meaning in winning other games.

To put it more simply: Denver almost certainly won more games with the trade than they would have without it. We almost went to a Super Bowl with a defense that couldn't rush the passer largely because Champ was so dominate.

Even if we do win the SB this year, it will have little bearing on who won the trade, as it doesn't appear Champ is poised to play too key a role in this season. Though I certainly want (more than any other player) to see him get a ring!

Guess Who
10-26-2013, 07:33 PM
That's getting a little philosophical. E.g., did Marino's career matter? Don't Elway's pre-Super Bowl accomplishments mean something on their own? SB is the ultimate goal, but there is certainly meaning in winning other games.

To put it more simply: Denver almost certainly won more games with the trade than they would have without it. We almost went to a Super Bowl with a defense that couldn't rush the passer largely because Champ was so dominate.

Even if we do win the SB this year, it will have little bearing on who won the trade, as it doesn't appear Champ is poised to play too key a role in this season. Though I certainly want (more than any other player) to see him get a ring!

Well, I mean we can still argue who got the better of the trade but if both careers go without a SB appearance it seems kind of silly.

Do Bills and Dolphin fans argue who was better Kelly or Marino? I think not. If they do.... who cares.

Too me it is pretty obvious Champ was the better player but I cannot fault R****in fan for saying otherwise. They have the same amount of SBs as Denver during that time.