50 Greatest Boxers of All Time

[Bronco_Beerslug]

This should make for some debate.......

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By Kieran Mulvaney | Special to ESPN.com
50 Greatest (http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/greatest/featureVideo?page=greatest150)

Who's really the greatest of all time? ESPN.com ranks 'em.


http://assets.espn.go.com/i/boxing/fifty_boxers_video.jpg

• How we picked the list (http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/greatest/news/story?id=2815643) | 50-41 (http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/greatest/featureVideo?page=greatest4150) | 40-31 (http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/greatest/featureVideo?page=greatest3140) | 30-21 (http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/greatest/featureVideo?page=greatest2130) | 20-11 (http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/greatest/featureVideo?page=greatest1120) | 10-1 (http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/greatest/featureVideo?page=greatest110) | The entire list (http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/greatest/featureVideo?page=greatest150)

The final list

1. Sugar Ray Robinson Video (javascript:void(0);) http://assets.espn.go.com/i/m_arrow.gif Joe Tessitore and Teddy Atlas on the list (javascript:void(0);)
2. Muhammad Ali Video (javascript:void(0);)
3. Henry Armstrong Video (javascript:void(0);)
4. Joe Louis Video (javascript:void(0);)
5. Willie Pep Video (javascript:void(0);)
6. Roberto Duran Video (javascript:void(0);)
7. Benny Leonard
8. Jack Johnson Video (javascript:void(0);)
9. Jack Dempsey Video (javascript:void(0);) http://assets.espn.go.com/i/m_arrow.gif
10. Sam Langford
11. Joe Gans
12. Sugar Ray Leonard Video (javascript:void(0);)
13. Harry Greb
14. Rocky Marciano Video (javascript:void(0);)
15. Jimmy Wilde
16. Gene Tunney Video (javascript:void(0);)
17. Mickey Walker Video (javascript:void(0);)
18. Archie Moore Video (javascript:void(0);)
19. Stanley Ketchel
20. George Foreman Video (javascript:void(0);)
21. Tony Canzoneri
22. Barney Ross Video (javascript:void(0);)
23. Jimmy McLarnin
24. Julio Cesar Chavez Video (javascript:void(0);)
25. Marcel Cerdan
26. Joe Frazier Video (javascript:void(0);)
27. Ezzard Charles
28. Jake LaMotta Video (javascript:void(0);)
29. Sandy Saddler
30. Terry McGovern
31. Billy Conn Video (javascript:void(0);) http://assets.espn.go.com/i/m_arrow.gif
32. Jose Napoles
33. Ruben Olivares
34. Emile Griffith
35. Marvin Hagler
36. Eder Jofre
37. Thomas Hearns
38. Larry Holmes Video (javascript:void(0);)
39. Oscar De La Hoya
40. Evander Holyfield
41. Ted "Kid" Lewis
42. Alexis Arguello
43. Marco Antonio Barrera
44. Pernell Whitaker Video (javascript:void(0);) http://assets.espn.go.com/i/m_arrow.gif
45. Carlos Monzon
46. Roy Jones Jr. Bonus video: Brian Kenny on Jones' place on the list (javascript:void(0);)
47. Bernard Hopkins
48. Floyd Mayweather Jr. Video (javascript:void(0);)
49. Erik Morales
50. Mike Tyson Video (javascript:void(0);)


.

[Don Flamenco]

Where is Pancho Villa on that list?


what a joke

[Garcia Bronco]

Hmmm...Tyson is about top ten...Holyfield is also top 10..

this guy should be top ten as well...

Julio Cesar Chavez

[BroncoInferno]

Aaron Pryor ought to be on the list somewhere. One of the most underrated fighters in history, mainly because the top guys of his era, particularly Leonard, ducked him at all costs. He beat Alexis Arguello (#42 on the list) on two occasions, both by knockout. Their first fight is one of the greatest fights in the history of boxing, and was voted Fight of the Decade for the 80s by Ring Magazine...yes, it won over Hearns-Leornard and Hagler-Hearns. If Arguello makes the list, Pryor ought to be on there somewhere. Criminally underrated fighter.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Hmmm...Tyson is about top ten...Holyfield is also top 10..
this guy should be top ten as well...
Julio Cesar ChavezTyson and Holyfield top 10? Man, not my top ten, not anywhere near it.

[Jason in LA]

It's interesting that Oscar De La Hoya is above guys that clearly beat him. It's like he gets credit for taking on big named opponents, even though he lost to half of them.

[Jason in LA]

I'd say that when they made this list they automaticlly put Tyson at #50. He had to be on the list somewhere so just put him on the bottom.

[Garcia Bronco]

I'd say that when they made this list they automaticlly put Tyson at #50. He had to be on the list somewhere so just put him on the bottom.

He's clearly top ten though. I would have loved to see Tyson/Ali with both guys in their prime....I wonder who would have won. I think Tyson would have won and niether fighter would have been able to talk ever again.

[-Slap-]

Aaron Pryor ought to be on the list somewhere. One of the most underrated fighters in history, mainly because the top guys of his era, particularly Leonard, ducked him at all costs. He beat Alexis Arguello (#42 on the list) on two occasions, both by knockout. Their first fight is one of the greatest fights in the history of boxing, and was voted Fight of the Decade for the 80s by Ring Magazine...yes, it won over Hearns-Leornard and Hagler-Hearns. If Arguello makes the list, Pryor ought to be on there somewhere. Criminally underrated fighter.

Panama Lewis in the corner before the ninth round: "No, not that water bottle. Give me the black one. The one I mixed."

Then Pryor ducks the post fight urinalysis.

A few years later, Panama Lewis goes on to remove padding from Louis Resto's gloves before he fought Billy Conn Jr, nearly killing Conn, ending his career and eventually driving him to take his own life in a one car accident that was no accident.

Arguello was a better fighter than Pryor and deserves to be higher than 42nd.

[-Slap-]

Duran should be no lower than third.

[Garcia Bronco]

Tyson and Holyfield top 10? Man, not my top ten, not anywhere near it.

I believe Holyfield along with Ali are the only two figthers to ever win the HWC 3 times. Holyfield is indeed one of the greatest boxers ever. The only negative you could give him is the stigma around the Lenox fight, of which he was not the judge.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Long ago I listened to a radio show where they took their top ten heavy weights and created a radio simulation of a box off between them. I'm pretty sure Ali was the champ at the time and he lost in a semi final to Sugar Ray Armstrong who went on to beat Dempsey in the final. They called the fights on the radio as if they were live. It was actually quite fun in the days before video games.

[gunns]

He's clearly top ten though. I would have loved to see Tyson/Ali with both guys in their prime....I wonder who would have won. I think Tyson would have won and niether fighter would have been able to talk ever again.

Ali would have. Tyson was merely a 3 round boxer. After that he was dead. If Tyson fought someone that could take a punch and last longer than 3 rounds he was doomed. That's how Douglas and Holyfield got the best of him. Ali could take a punch and was more of a technical fighter. Tyson was wild and all over the place. Definitely not top 10

[Bronco_Beerslug]

He's clearly top ten though. I would have loved to see Tyson/Ali with both guys in their prime....I wonder who would have won. I think Tyson would have won and niether fighter would have been able to talk ever again.

Ali would have knocked Tyson out, any and every time they ever fought.

[Garcia Bronco]

Ali would have. Tyson was merely a 3 round boxer. After that he was dead. If Tyson fought someone that could take a punch and last longer than 3 rounds he was doomed. That's how Douglas and Holyfield got the best of him. Ali could take a punch and was more of a technical fighter. Tyson was wild and all over the place. Definitely not top 10

Tyson was not a technical fighter..his skills were raw power, toughness, and intimidation. and he about killed many with it. He could box though..unfortunately his proper trainer died.

[Garcia Bronco]

Ali would have knocked Tyson out, any and every time they ever fought.

I disagree. I used to have a sim that you could do this with...it was about 50-50 in the sim

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I disagree. I used to have a sim that you could do this with...it was about 50-50 in the sim

Right :) I've seen them both fight all their fights. Ali would have knocked him out.

[Garcia Bronco]

Right :) I've seen them both fight all their fights. Ali would have knocked him out.

I guess the question comes down to how much harder did Tyson hit than say Foreman. I think Tyson hit harder. Either way...it would have been one hell of a fight.

[BroncoInferno]

Panama Lewis in the corner before the ninth round: "No, not that water bottle. Give me the black one. The one I mixed."

Then Pryor ducks the post fight urinalysis.

A few years later, Panama Lewis goes on to remove padding from Louis Resto's gloves before he fought Billy Conn Jr, nearly killing Conn, ending his career and eventually driving him to take his own life in a one car accident that was no accident.

Arguello was a better fighter than Pryor and deserves to be higher than 42nd.

Bullsh*t. Pryor beat Arguello far worse in their second fight, and there was no "black bottle" that time for detractors to point to as an excuse.

Besides, Pryor did not "duck" urinalysis in the first fight. Refusal to provide a sample would have resulted in automatic DQ. The Florida Boxing Commission failed in their duty to collect samples from either fighter after the bout, and so the controversy could not be settled until the second fight, which Pryor totally dominated. He proved he was the better fighter on two separate occasions.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I guess the question comes down to how much harder did Tyson hit than say Foreman. I think Tyson hit harder. Either way...it would have been one hell of a fight.

:)





http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/9973/aliqm7.jpg

[WoodMan]

That is the most bogus list I have ever seen. So many great fighters aren't on it and alot of good/average fighters are. My addition and definitely top 10 IMO is Bobby Foster. Probably the best light heavyweight of all time and he doesn't even make the list. HA. Its a joke list right.

[BroncoInferno]

That is the most bogus list I have ever seen. So many great fighters aren't on it and alot of good/average fighters are. My addition and definitely top 10 IMO is Bobby Foster. Probably the best light heavyweight of all time and he doesn't even make the list. HA. Its a joke list right.

Damn, I didn't notice Foster wasn't on the list. Absolutely right.

[Merlin]

Tyson doesn't deserve to be anywhere near the top 10. He couldn't beat KO an old Foreman, yet Ali beat Foreman in his prime. Tyson was a product of his time and the media. He was good, but not even close to Foreman, much less Ali. However, Larry Holmes' era has to be one of the softest in heavy weight history, what h3ll is he doing at 38. At least Tyson did some pulverizing of his mediocre opponents. Holyfield also fought in a poor era, but probably not as soft has LH's.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

How can you say Tyson can't be near the top ten? The guy flat out destroyed people. Has anyone seen that video on all his knockouts? Its incredible, watching him knock out numerous guys in like a minute. Saying he couldn't go more than 3 roudns is like saying Shaq has no outside shot, therefore he sucks. Tyson didn't NEED to go more than that...he made sure the fight was over quick.

Plus he was near impossible to knock out in Mike Tyson's Punch Out:)

[Bronco_Beerslug]

How we picked the 50 greatest fighters (http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/greatest/news/story?id=2815643)
By Kieran Mulvaney
Special to ESPN.com

Ranking the 50 greatest fighters in history -- producing any kind of ranking, for that matter, of athletes in any sport -- is like flying a kite during a thunderstorm. It might seem exciting and challenging, but you know it's going to hurt.

If one thing is guaranteed about this ESPN.com listing of the greatest 50 boxers of all time, it's that everyone who reads it will have an opinion -- and not one of those opinions will be that we got it exactly right.

Why are there so many overrated old-timers? Why are there so many unproven contemporary fighters? Why is Oscar De La Hoya ahead of Carlos Monzon? Why is Evander Holyfield behind Larry Holmes? Why is Harry Greb so low? Why is Julio Cesar Chavez so high? Why is Mike Tyson in there at all?

But writing a list like this is a subjective science, and an inexact one. With perhaps one or two exceptions, there are no right or wrong answers.

Although few would question that Sugar Ray Robinson should sit at the very top, or that Muhammad Ali, Henry Armstrong and Joe Louis should be at the head of the chasing pack, cases can be made for and against the positioning, inclusion or omission of a good many others. You want to argue that Tony Canzoneri is ranked too high or that Roy Jones Jr. doesn't belong on the list? Go ahead. Chances are your arguments in favor of your rankings are just as good as my arguments in favor of mine.

This list is not an all-time, mythical pound-for-pound ranking. It is not trying to establish who would beat whom if everyone were all the same weight. After all, Roberto Duran lost two of three to Sugar Ray Leonard, but is ranked six places ahead of him. Sandy Saddler beat Willie Pep in three of four bouts, but is at No. 29, while Pep enjoys the stratospheric ranking of No. 5. Alexis Arguello is on the list; Aaron Pryor, a terrific fighter in his own right who beat Arguello twice, doesn't make it.

The fighters in this list have been assessed on four main criteria:

In-ring performance: A subjective measure and, to some degree, unquantifiable, but an important one. There's more to being considered a great fighter than compiling wins and collecting championship belts. There's also the manner in which the fights are fought and the wins are won -- the skill, the talent, the heart. Muhammad Ali brought a whole new style and panache to heavyweight boxing. Rocky Marciano and Evander Holyfield each defined fighting heart. Roy Jones Jr. and Floyd Mayweather Jr. at times displayed flashes of skill and superiority of a kind rarely seen in a boxing ring. At his peak, Mike Tyson didn't so much knock out his opponents as send them flying across the ring.

Achievements: Blistering power or silky smooth boxing moves aren't enough. Boxing's landscape is littered with fighters whose achievements did not end up matching their skill or talent. Almost all the fighters on this list fought at or near the pinnacle of the sport for years -- most either won multiple world titles or defended one title multiple times. Stanley Ketchel defended his middleweight championship 11 times in a short life that ended at 24. Harry Greb won the middleweight title despite being half blind in one eye, and went on to fight light heavyweights and heavyweights. George Foreman won the heavyweight championship of the world, lost it, retired, came back 10 years later and regained the crown at age 45. Henry Armstrong held world championships at three weights at the same time.

The exceptions all have good reasons for being so. Sam Langford, for example, was denied the opportunity to ever contest a world championship bout. Marcel Cerdan was injured during the first defense of his middleweight title and died in a plane crash before he could win back his crown.

Dominance: A factor that arguably works against those from eras with deeper talent pools, but one which rewards those who stood out from among their peers. Joe Louis was heavyweight champion for 11 years. Robinson suffered just one defeat in his first 123 bouts. Cerdan lost only four times in 110 fights, and each of them was due to disqualification, dodgy judging or injury. Pep allegedly once won a round without throwing a punch.

Mainstream appeal: This is the wild-card element. It's a disadvantage for most modern fighters, who compete in a time when boxing is no longer a mainstream sport, but it also conversely greatly boosts the candidacies of those few contemporary boxers who have achieved crossover recognition. In particular, it substantially elevates De La Hoya and Tyson, two boxers who might otherwise not be as high on this list -- or even on it at all. De La Hoya is perhaps the only active boxer with widespread name recognition outside of boxing circles, and nobody brought a buzz to the sport in recent decades to anything like the degree of Tyson -- who, for better or worse, remains synonymous with modern boxing in the public mind.

This list, then, is not just the 50 greatest fighters of all time. It is the 50 fighters who were the greatest in their time. It is a tribute to the boxers who have gone before, and to those who have strived to reach the standard their predecessors have set.

Fifty different writers will have 50 different lists. At a time when boxing is frequently criticized and condemned to oblivion, there will, hopefully, be enough fresh blood and exciting developments in the sport to render this list irrelevant and to elevate a whole new generation of pugilists into the pantheon of boxing's greatest.

Kieran Mulvaney is a freelance writer based in Washington, D.C. He covers boxing for ESPN.com, Reuters and TigerBoxing.com.

[-Slap-]

Bullsh*t. Pryor beat Arguello far worse in their second fight, and there was no "black bottle" that time for detractors to point to as an excuse.

Besides, Pryor did not "duck" urinalysis in the first fight. Refusal to provide a sample would have resulted in automatic DQ. The Florida Boxing Commission failed in their duty to collect samples from either fighter after the bout, and so the controversy could not be settled until the second fight, which Pryor totally dominated. He proved he was the better fighter on two separate occasions.

Yeah, tell me all about that fight. Did you watch it from your crib? I saw it live and I saw the majority of the fights each man had in the years leading up to that bout. Your contention that Pryor had the better career is truly laughable and it reveals you as nothing but a novice fight fan.

Do you realize that Alexis Arguello at the end of his career, and in his 80th pro fight, is pretty much the only big name on Pryor's record? The only other top fighter Pryor ever defeated was a badly faded Antonio Cervantes at the end of his career.

Pryor knocked out a 35 year old Cervantes in the old man's 100th pro bout. Pryor won the Junior Welterweight title in that fight, which he defended eight times, twice against Arguello. Pryor was only champion in one division and he never defended against a great fighter in his prime.

By contrast, Arguello won belts in three different weight classes and he fought every contender in all three weight classes: Ruben Olivares, Alfredo Escalera (twice), Bazooka Limon, Bobby Chacon, Ruben Castillo, Cornelius Boza-Edwards, Jose Luis Ramirez, Ray Mancini.

Arguello was attempting to become the first man to win titles in four different weight classes when he fought Pryor. He would have, except that little scumbag was supercharged on drugs and HBO cameras have video and audio of Panama Lewis requesting his "special water bottle". Lewis went to prision a few years later for tampering with the gloves of his fighter Louis Resto, so there's little doubt he would cheat to win. Pryor's drug problems eventually became so severe, he and a drug addict "friend" physically assaulted and robbed his own mother for drug money. Something tells me he wouldn't have any moral dilemma about using drugs to win, either.

Go ahead and make yourself look as bright as Jason in LA with your Florida Boxing Commission bull****. Somebody there got bribed to take a ****ing walk. Is that real hard for you to understand?

[-Slap-]

That is the most bogus list I have ever seen. So many great fighters aren't on it and alot of good/average fighters are. My addition and definitely top 10 IMO is Bobby Foster. Probably the best light heavyweight of all time and he doesn't even make the list. HA. Its a joke list right.

That's deplorable. I had about 30 seconds to check the thing at work this afternoon. Now I'm afraid to examine it in detail.

[orange 4 life]

1) Rocky Balboa

the rest just doesnt matter.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Yeah, tell me all about that fight. Did you watch it from your crib? I saw it live and I saw the majority of the fights each man had in the years leading up to that bout. Your contention that Pryor had the better career is truly laughable and it reveals you as nothing but a novice fight fan.

Do you realize that Alexis Arguello at the end of his career, and in his 80th pro fight, is pretty much the only big name on Pryor's record? The only other top fighter Pryor ever defeated was a badly faded Antonio Cervantes at the end of his career.

Pryor knocked out a 35 year old Cervantes in the old man's 100th pro bout. Pryor won the Junior Welterweight title in that fight, which he defended eight times, twice against Arguello. Pryor was only champion in one division and he never defended against a great fighter in his prime.

By contrast, Arguello won belts in three different weight classes and he fought every contender in all three weight classes: Ruben Olivares, Alfredo Escalera (twice), Bazooka Limon, Bobby Chacon, Ruben Castillo, Cornelius Boza-Edwards, Jose Luis Ramirez, Ray Mancini.

Arguello was attempting to become the first man to win titles in four different weight classes when he fought Pryor. He would have, except that little scumbag was supercharged on drugs and HBO cameras have video and audio of Panama Lewis requesting his "special water bottle". Lewis went to prision a few years later for tampering with the gloves of his fighter Louis Resto, so there's little doubt he would cheat to win. Pryor's drug problems eventually became so severe, he and a drug addict "friend" physically assaulted and robbed his own mother for drug money. Something tells me he wouldn't have any moral dilemma about using drugs to win, either.

Go ahead and make yourself look as bright as Jason in LA with your Florida Boxing Commission bull****. Somebody there got bribed to take a ****ing walk. Is that real hard for you to understand?Pryor was a thug and Alexis was a true boxing champion, an artist.

I know Salvador Sanchez isn't on that list but would be on mine even though he was only 23 (and 9 title defenses) when he died. I never seen a fighter take apart opponents the way he did. He could punch your lights out or box you into a stupor. The way he dismantled Wilfredo Gomez (who was 33-0 with 32 KOs at the time) was one the greatest displays of boxing I've ever seen!!!

[gunns]

How can you say Tyson can't be near the top ten? The guy flat out destroyed people. Has anyone seen that video on all his knockouts? Its incredible, watching him knock out numerous guys in like a minute. Saying he couldn't go more than 3 roudns is like saying Shaq has no outside shot, therefore he sucks. Tyson didn't NEED to go more than that...he made sure the fight was over quick.

Plus he was near impossible to knock out in Mike Tyson's Punch Out:)


Look at who he fought before 1986 and after up until the Douglas fight. It makes Roy Jones Jr look like he fought a champion every fight. An absolute joke. None of them were the class of boxing. They all allowed Tyson to get inside, couldn't take a punch and I will admit Tyson had a punch. Douglas could take a punch and so could Holyfield. All they had to do was get past the 3rd round and Tyson would wear down. Although the Holmes fight was in his twilight I did enjoy seeing him get pulverized. Tyson was a media creation and always will be.

[freak6]

1. Rocky Marciano

Guy was an undefeated heavyweight champ. How is he NOT in the top 5 at least?

[BroncoInferno]

Yeah, tell me all about that fight. Did you watch it from your crib? I saw it live and I saw the majority of the fights each man had in the years leading up to that bout. Your contention that Pryor had the better career is truly laughable and it reveals you as nothing but a novice fight fan.

Do you realize that Alexis Arguello at the end of his career, and in his 80th pro fight, is pretty much the only big name on Pryor's record? The only other top fighter Pryor ever defeated was a badly faded Antonio Cervantes at the end of his career.

Pryor knocked out a 35 year old Cervantes in the old man's 100th pro bout. Pryor won the Junior Welterweight title in that fight, which he defended eight times, twice against Arguello. Pryor was only champion in one division and he never defended against a great fighter in his prime.

By contrast, Arguello won belts in three different weight classes and he fought every contender in all three weight classes: Ruben Olivares, Alfredo Escalera (twice), Bazooka Limon, Bobby Chacon, Ruben Castillo, Cornelius Boza-Edwards, Jose Luis Ramirez, Ray Mancini.

Arguello was attempting to become the first man to win titles in four different weight classes when he fought Pryor. He would have, except that little scumbag was supercharged on drugs and HBO cameras have video and audio of Panama Lewis requesting his "special water bottle". Lewis went to prision a few years later for tampering with the gloves of his fighter Louis Resto, so there's little doubt he would cheat to win. Pryor's drug problems eventually became so severe, he and a drug addict "friend" physically assaulted and robbed his own mother for drug money. Something tells me he wouldn't have any moral dilemma about using drugs to win, either.

Go ahead and make yourself look as bright as Jason in LA with your Florida Boxing Commission bull****. Somebody there got bribed to take a ****ing walk. Is that real hard for you to understand?

Damn, why are the insults necessary when I'm just giving my opinion? Sure, I'm 26, I didn't see many of the all-time great fights live, but there is a little invention called DVD that the brings the classic moments into one's home as if it were live.

Arguello was 30 years old when they fought, Pryor was 27. Pryor also fought over 130 times as an amateur during an era with no head gear, whereas Arguello had basically no amateur career at all. Their abuse in the ring was not as different as you portray. But, yeah, Arguello was a shot fighter. Uhh

It's fairly well known that Lewis practice voodoo, and that the substance he "mixed" was very likely one of his useless voodoo remedies (other claims include that the substance was Schnaaps, a diarrhea preventer...in any case, there is no known substance that could have given him the jolt to KO Arguello literally seconds after swallowing the substance). Regardless, you can make all he excuses you want for he first fight, it won't change the fact that Pryor kicked Arguello's ass even worse 8 months later when there was no "black bottle" to pin it on. Arguello marveled after that bout that he had never been hit with two hands at the same time in his boxing career.

And you know as well as I that the top fighters of the era shamelessly ducked Pryor. Leonard moved up a weight class during the Olympic trials to avoid Pryor (Pryor was absolutely robbed of a trip to the games via an absurd decision loss to Howard Davis), and Tommy Hearns (who is one of my favorite fighters of all time) got whipped by Pryor in the 1976 National Golden Gloves Championship. Nobody wanted to take the risk of fighting him as a pro. I'm not saying he definitely would have beaten those guys, but his aggressive, full throttle style combined with his remarkable stamina would have given anybody serious problems.

Pryor's personal life is absolutely irrelevant to the fact the he whipped Arguello on two different occasions. Arguello battled coke addiction himself, by the way.

[BroncoInferno]

Pryor was a thug and Alexis was a true boxing champion, an artist.

Arguello was a great champion. Doesn't change the fact that Pryor whipped him on two different occasions.

[freak6]

Hagler got fkd vs Leonard. If he gets that decision, he's probably top 20. BS.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

1. Rocky Marciano

Guy was an undefeated heavyweight champ. How is he NOT in the top 5 at least?Read the writer's disclaimer (http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/greatest/news/story?id=2815643) :)

Although few would question that Sugar Ray Robinson should sit at the very top, or that Muhammad Ali, Henry Armstrong and Joe Louis should be at the head of the chasing pack, cases can be made for and against the positioning, inclusion or omission of a good many others. You want to argue that Tony Canzoneri is ranked too high or that Roy Jones Jr. doesn't belong on the list? Go ahead. Chances are your arguments in favor of your rankings are just as good as my arguments in favor of mine.

This list is not an all-time, mythical pound-for-pound ranking. It is not trying to establish who would beat whom if everyone were all the same weight. After all, Roberto Duran lost two of three to Sugar Ray Leonard, but is ranked six places ahead of him. Sandy Saddler beat Willie Pep in three of four bouts, but is at No. 29, while Pep enjoys the stratospheric ranking of No. 5. Alexis Arguello is on the list; Aaron Pryor, a terrific fighter in his own right who beat Arguello twice, doesn't make it.

[freak6]

Read the writer's disclaimer (http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/greatest/news/story?id=2815643) :)

I get that, I'm just confused how a guy that never lost isn't a top ten?

Whatever.

ELWAY is the Greatest Football Player Ever!!!

[BroncoInferno]

Marciano fought during a pretty thin era in heavyweight history. The top two contenders to his crown were an old guy (Jersey Joe Walcott who was in his late 30s), an overstuffed light heavyweight (Ezzard Charles) who wasn't terribly young himself, and Archie Moore...undoubtedly one of the greatest boxers in history (he should be top 8 minimum in stead of top 18) but who was fighting in his 40s and in an unfaiilar weight class. Rocky was a very crude fighter and likely would have had problems with more skilled fighters like Louis and Ali (and even Holmes, IMO).

[BroncoInferno]

Hagler got fkd vs Leonard. If he gets that decision, he's probably top 20. BS.

I agree. That decision was a total farce.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I get that, I'm just confused how a guy that never lost isn't a top ten?
Whatever.
ELWAY is the Greatest Football Player Ever!!!
Some other lists...

------------------------------------

In 1971, Ring magazine founder Nat Fleischer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nat_Fleischer) named Marciano as the tenth greatest heavyweight champion ever. In 1998, Ring magazine named Marciano as the sixth greatest heavyweight champion ever.



In 2002, Ring Magazine numbered Marciano at #12 on the list of the 80 Best Fighters of the Last 80 Years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_Magazine%27s_list_of_the_80_Best_Fighters_of_ the_Last_80_Years). In 2003, Ring Magazine rated Marciano #14 on the list of 100 greatest punchers of all time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_greatest_punchers_of_all_time). In 2005, Marciano was named the fifth greatest heavyweight of all time by the International Boxing Research Organization.



A 1977 ranking by Ring magazine listed Marciano as the greatest Italian-American fighter. In 2007, on ESPN.com's list of the 50 Greatest Boxers of All Time, Marciano was ranked #14. A 1968 radio computer simulation by Murry Woroner concluded that Marciano was the greatest heavyweight champion.


Marciano had the shortest reach for a heavyweight champion ever (68 inches, 172/3 cm). He was also one of the smallest heavyweight champions ever. He stood 5'11 tall (180.3cm).

[-Slap-]

Arguello was 30 years old when they fought, Pryor was 27. Yeah, Arguello was a shot fighter. Uhh

A fighter can't be shot at 30? What about when he begins his professional career at 16 and has 80 fights, including 22 title fights?

You're killing me here.......ROFL!

I guess the fact that he was attempting to win a world title in an unprecedented fourth class doesn't move you, either.

You can make all he excuses you want for he first fight, it won't change the fact that Pryor kicked Arguello's ass even worse 8 months later. Arguello marveled after that bout that he had never been hit with two hands at the same time in his boxing career.

And you know as well as I that the top fighters of the era shamelessly ducked Pryor. Leonard moved up a weight class during the Olympic trials to avoid Pryor (Pryor was absolutely robbed of a trip to the games via an absurd decision loss to Howard Davis), and Tommy Hearns (who is one of my favorite fighters of all time) got whipped by Pryor in the 1976 National Golden Gloves Championship. Nobody wanted to take the risk of fighting him as a pro. I'm not saying he definitely would have beaten those guys, but his aggressive, full throttle style combined with his remarkable stamina would have given anybody serious problems.

Here's a newsflash for you, since Classic Bouts or whoever is feeding you this bullcrap doesn't seem to be doing the job. Pryor never fought a single great fighter while that boxer was in his prime. Beating a 35 year old Cervantes and Arguello, who's prime years were spent at 126 and 130 pounds, doesn't qualify. There was huge money sitting there seven pounds heavier in 1980 and 1981 when Leonard, Hearns, Duran and Benitez were duking it out at welterweight. Pryor was content to earn **** money fighting the likes of DuJuan Johnson and Akio Kameda. By the way, both of those frigging bums put Pryor on the deck before he came back to beat them. Thought I might hip you to that since none of Pryor's bouts except the Argeullo ones will ever be replayed anywhere.

You're honestly talking about his goddamn amateur record like that means anything? Let's put Mark Breland in the Top 50 while we're at it. Why wasn't this little prick tracking down Hearns, Leonard and the rest when they were just one weight class away? Alexis Arguello jumped four weight classes looking for someone to challenge him.

Pryor's personal life is absolutely irrelevant to the fact the he whipped Arguello on two different occasions. Arguello battled coke addiction himself, by the way.

PRYOR TOOK A MOTHER****ING ILLEGAL STIMULANT IN THE CORNER TO WIN THEIR FIRST FIGHT!

What part of that don't you understand?

The guy took a stimulant to beat a natural featherweight in the twilight of his career for his only meaningful win.

I only referenced Pryor unbelievably callous nature - I mean who the **** beats up their own mom - to illustrate nothing is beneath him. Including cheating to win a boxing match. Factor in Panama Lewis' involvement and only an idiot wouldn't know there were drugs in that bottle.

[-Slap-]

Just saw you edited in the voodoo reference.

I really am arguing with Jason in LA now.

I wonder what voodoo spell old Panama was putting Billy Conn when he removed the padding from Louis Resto's gloves. Was it the old beat a young fighter nearly to death with fists like rocks, ruin his eyesight, end his career and drive him to suicide hoodoo?

Damn, that's a good one. Bought him two years in prison (he was sentenced to six), but what a hoot.

[-Slap-]

Hagler got fkd vs Leonard. If he gets that decision, he's probably top 20. BS.

Nobody hates Leonard more than me, but he stole that fight fair and square. Who knows what the hell Marvin was doing fighting the first four rounds orthodox, but he basically threw away the fight by doing that.

[Pendejo]

Just saw you edited in the voodoo reference.

I really am arguing with Jason in LA now.

I wonder what voodoo spell old Panama was putting Billy Conn when he removed the padding from Louis Resto's gloves. Was it the old beat a young fighter nearly to death with fists like rocks, ruin his eyesight, end his career and drive him to suicide hoodoo?

Damn, that's a good one. Bought him two years in prison (he was sentenced to six), but what a hoot.

Never would have happened in the UFC. The refs in that organization actually do a good job of saving fighters from permanent injury. Admittedly it's much to the chagrin of the blood lust crowd.

[-Slap-]

Never would have happened in the UFC. The refs in that organization actually do a good job of saving fighters from permanent injury. Admittedly it's much to the chagrin of the blood lust crowd.

My initial and overwhelming reaction is, "who cares, its the UFC".

It was hard to hold the referee culpable here. Conn went the distance against Resto, but his face was grotesquely disfigured. Its a testament to the young man's incredible resilience that he was able to stand up to essentially ten rounds against nothing but tape wrapped fists covered in leather. In fact, it his father, Billy Conn Sr, who discovered the crime in the ring immediately following the fight. He was suspicious about how badly his son was getting beaten up, so when he went to offer congratulations to Resto after the fight, he grabbed the boxer's gloves in both hands. Resto jerked his hands back like they had touched a hot stove and Conn knew at once what had happened.

Panama Lewis: The Trainer Who Gave Boxing a Black Eye (http://ringsidereport.com/rsr/print.php?type=N&item_id=1289)

By Russ Greenspan-April 30, 2007

In boxing, corruption and dirty dealings are often assumed to be the rule and not the exception, yet the sport occasionally manages to shock even the most hardened of sensibilities. Such was the case nearly 24 years ago at New York’s Madison Square Garden.

“Irish” Billy Collins grew up poor in Antioch, Tennessee, a small town located just south of Nashville. Billy’s old man was a pro fighter good enough to last 12 rounds against former welterweight champ Curtis Cokes, and Collins, JR., took up the fistic gauntlet, turning professional at the age of 20 following a successful amateur career.

Collins really seemed to have the knack inside the squared circle, winning his first 13 fights, 11 by knockout, with one of his 2 decision wins coming over former two time light welterweight title challenger Harold Brazier. On June 16, 1983, Collins faced Luis Resto, a formerly rated contender turned journeyman, on the undercard of the Roberto Duran – Davey Moore WBA Light Middleweight Championship. The fight was televised on ABC’s Wide World of Sports, and viewed by many as Collins’ next step towards his own title opportunity. Collins’ father proudly seconded his son for the occasion, while Resto’s chief second was trainer Carlos “Panama” Lewis, a failed professional fighter who began working corners in the early 1970’s, assisting the legendary Ray Arcel as a translator for 2007 IBHOF inductee Roberto Duran.

Collins was heavily favored over his more experienced opponent, but things did not go nearly as planned. The light punching Resto (8 KO’s in 30 fights), got by far the measure of Collins throughout the bout, rendering his facial features into a grotesquely bruised and swollen mask. Ringside accounts of the fight document Collins repeatedly advising his corner that it felt like Resto was hitting him with a brick. To his credit, Collins didn’t quit when presented with the chance, and lasted the 10 round distance with Resto without being dropped, albeit in a losing effort. When the fight ended, Resto visited his opponents’ corner to shake hands, and Collin’s father felt nothing but knuckles. Something was obviously wrong.

Immediately after the bout, Collins SR. demanded that the New York State Athletic Commission (“NYSAC”) impound Resto’s gloves as evidence, and the NYPD’s investigation determined that most of the horsehair padding inside the 8 ounce mitts had been removed through holes in their palm sides, meaning that Resto had essentially used his bare hands to pummel the body and facial features of Billy Collins.

In October 1986, Resto (who denies any glove tampering or knowledge of same) was convicted of assault, conspiracy, and criminal possession of a deadly weapon,
(his fists), and banned from boxing for life. Lewis (who intimates that he was team Resto’s fall guy) was convicted of identical charges, did identical prison time and received a lifetime NYSAC ban prohibiting him from working corners anywhere in the United States. The Commission also changed the Resto–Collins decision to a no contest.

Unfortunately, fate remained extremely unkind to Billy Collins after the Resto fight. The tremendous beating he absorbed on that fateful June evening left him with permanently blurred vision and no boxing career. In fact, Billy was unable to see well enough to secure employment of any kind. On March 6, 1984, an inebriated, miserable Collins drove his 1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass into an Antioch culvert, and he was killed upon impact. Collins was only 22 years old. While at first blush Collins’ death seemed a tragically unfortunate accident, one might just as readily argue suicide or perhaps something more insidious, as causative. In a 1998 Sports Illustrated interview, Billy Collins, SR., stated, “You don’t think Resto knew he didn’t have padding in the gloves?” “You don’t think Panama Lewis took it out? I’ve had 15 years to think about it, and I know - I know - that they did it. They killed him. They killed my son.”

Some years back, former Ring Magazine editor Randy Gordon opined that, “Panama Lewis should never, ever be allowed to work in boxing.” According to Gordon, “Pete Rose was banned from baseball for life. He was banned for betting on the sport. You don’t see Pete Rose in a dugout. He can’t put on a uniform. He can’t be voted into the Hall of Fame, although his accomplishments on the field clearly merit that. But baseball has rules and it has enforced those rules. Should boxing be expected to do any less? This guy’s crime was against the sport of boxing. Boxing shouldn’t allow him back in, and won’t if I have any say in it. They can take it to whatever court they want.”

As it turned out, a courtroom wasn’t necessary. Following his release from prison and a stint working in a New York City cafeteria, Lewis initiated efforts to return to boxing in the U.S. as a trainer. However, the NYSAC ban against him generally held fast; Lewis secured piecemeal employment as a trainer, but remained excluded from serving as a corner man. In recent years, Lewis was permitted to work with some members of Don King’s stable, including a turn as a member of Mike Tyson’s entourage for his 2002 heavyweight title bout with Lennox Lewis.

Of course, Lewis has been allowed to pursue employment as a trainer outside the U.S., working with fistic notables such as the South African former heavyweight contender Francois Botha, and until recently, the up and coming Russian heavyweights, brothers Sultan and Timor Ibragimov. However, Lewis remains on the fringe end of the sport, which is as it should be.

In Jeff Ryan’s February, 1987 KO Magazine article, “Rest Easy Billy Ray,” the inquiry was posed that, “If Lewis would remove the padding from a pair of gloves in order to gain an edge in a meaningless 10-rounder, to which depths would he stoop in a championship bout or a superfight?” Mr. Ryan need only have looked a bit backwards in time for his answer.

Panama Lewis’s shameful conduct in the Resto–Collins bout followed shortly after another incident that while not nearly as egregious, is unquestionably as well known to boxing fans and historians. On November 12, 1982, Alexis Arguello met Aaron Pryor for the WBA Light Welterweight Title, with Panama Lewis in “The Hawk’s” corner. Also in that corner was a little black bottle “mixed” by Lewis, which HBO television audiences heard him demanding for his charge following round 13. The bout had been brutal but close, and both men seemed more than a little fatigued. However, as round 14 began, a profusely invigorated Pryor flew from his corner and swarmed Arguello, ending the fight by means of unceasing combination punching. Regrettably, what should have been the underdog Pryor’s golden moment was tainted by controversy.

Lewis contends that the subject container held no stimulants, but merely a blend of club soda, honey and schnapps. That may well be the case, but we will never know, since if memory serves, Pryor failed to appear for his post fight drug test, casting suspicion on both Lewis and his fighter. In retrospect, it seems that these misgivings were indeed well founded, undoubtedly so with regards to Lewis.

I was reading an article wherein Randy Gordon describes a highly emotional 1999 meeting with Panama Lewis, who was at the time training Francois Botha for his fight with Mike Tyson. Gordon reported that Lewis sobbed nearly uncontrollably throughout their get-together, and expressed his grief for what had happened in the Resto fight, swearing that “I would never in a million years allow something like that to happen again.” Be that as it may, I for one suspect that through his veil of crocodile tears, Panama was caused to perceive the subtle, yet unmistakable sound of Billy Collins, JR., turning over in his long cold grave.

[BroncoInferno]

Slap, I freely admit that I don't know what the substance was. It is known that Lewis practiced voodoo and that he thought the "spells" thereof were effective. Regardless, it is doubtful that the substance had much impact on the fight, because there aren't any known substances that can give one the sort of advantageous jolt that would allow one to knockout a guy literally seconds after consuming the substance as Pryor did. But, regardless, it does not explain the fact that Pryor whipped Arguello EVEN WORSE 8 months later with no substance advantage.

You brought up the # of fights Arguello had as evidence that he wasn't a great fighter anymore. I brought up the age plus Pryor's amateur record for two reasons: 1) Pryor fought in an era where amateur fights were fought sans headgear, therefore the physical risk was the same..and 2) Pryor's amateur competition (e.g. Hearns) were far superior to the stiffs Arguello fought in Nicaragua in the early part of his career.

I know you're older than me and therefore witnessed these things first hand. My contacts with many of these fights are via DVD copies I get off the internet. I'm just giving my opinion based on what is known in the record and is available on tape, which is pretty powerful evidence in and of itself. I'm not trying to make this an ad hominem battle.

[TomServo]

getting into an argument about a sport where there are judges is always risky.
just my 2 cents is that mike tyson fought in the absolute dregs of the heavyweight times. i dont know about ali knocking him out but ali would have had him so freaked out, tyson woulda bit him Before any fight would have started.
the first time tyson fought someone who didnt buy his "big bully" crap like buster douglas, he didnt know what to do after douglas got up, and he never did recover from it.

[Clockwork Orange]

This should make for some debate.......

-----------------------------------------------------

By Kieran Mulvaney | Special to ESPN.com
50 Greatest (http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/greatest/featureVideo?page=greatest150)

Who's really the greatest of all time? ESPN.com ranks 'em.


http://assets.espn.go.com/i/boxing/fifty_boxers_video.jpg

• How we picked the list (http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/greatest/news/story?id=2815643) | 50-41 (http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/greatest/featureVideo?page=greatest4150) | 40-31 (http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/greatest/featureVideo?page=greatest3140) | 30-21 (http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/greatest/featureVideo?page=greatest2130) | 20-11 (http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/greatest/featureVideo?page=greatest1120) | 10-1 (http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/greatest/featureVideo?page=greatest110) | The entire list (http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/greatest/featureVideo?page=greatest150)

The final list

1. Sugar Ray Robinson Video (javascript:void(0);) http://assets.espn.go.com/i/m_arrow.gif Joe Tessitore and Teddy Atlas on the list (javascript:void(0);)
2. Muhammad Ali Video (javascript:void(0);)
3. Henry Armstrong Video (javascript:void(0);)
4. Joe Louis Video (javascript:void(0);)
5. Willie Pep Video (javascript:void(0);)
6. Roberto Duran Video (javascript:void(0);)
7. Benny Leonard
8. Jack Johnson Video (javascript:void(0);)
9. Jack Dempsey Video (javascript:void(0);) http://assets.espn.go.com/i/m_arrow.gif
10. Sam Langford
11. Joe Gans
12. Sugar Ray Leonard Video (javascript:void(0);)
13. Harry Greb
14. Rocky Marciano Video (javascript:void(0);)
15. Jimmy Wilde
16. Gene Tunney Video (javascript:void(0);)
17. Mickey Walker Video (javascript:void(0);)
18. Archie Moore Video (javascript:void(0);)
19. Stanley Ketchel
20. George Foreman Video (javascript:void(0);)
21. Tony Canzoneri
22. Barney Ross Video (javascript:void(0);)
23. Jimmy McLarnin
24. Julio Cesar Chavez Video (javascript:void(0);)
25. Marcel Cerdan
26. Joe Frazier Video (javascript:void(0);)
27. Ezzard Charles
28. Jake LaMotta Video (javascript:void(0);)
29. Sandy Saddler
30. Terry McGovern
31. Billy Conn Video (javascript:void(0);) http://assets.espn.go.com/i/m_arrow.gif
32. Jose Napoles
33. Ruben Olivares
34. Emile Griffith
35. Marvin Hagler
36. Eder Jofre
37. Thomas Hearns
38. Larry Holmes Video (javascript:void(0);)
39. Oscar De La Hoya
40. Evander Holyfield
41. Ted "Kid" Lewis
42. Alexis Arguello
43. Marco Antonio Barrera
44. Pernell Whitaker Video (javascript:void(0);) http://assets.espn.go.com/i/m_arrow.gif
45. Carlos Monzon
46. Roy Jones Jr. Bonus video: Brian Kenny on Jones' place on the list (javascript:void(0);)
47. Bernard Hopkins
48. Floyd Mayweather Jr. Video (javascript:void(0);)
49. Erik Morales
50. Mike Tyson Video (javascript:void(0);)


.

"Hurricane" Peter McNeeley got snubbed.

No respect, I tell ya. :nono:

[Spider]

Aaron Pryor ought to be on the list somewhere. One of the most underrated fighters in history, mainly because the top guys of his era, particularly Leonard, ducked him at all costs. He beat Alexis Arguello (#42 on the list) on two occasions, both by knockout. Their first fight is one of the greatest fights in the history of boxing, and was voted Fight of the Decade for the 80s by Ring Magazine...yes, it won over Hearns-Leornard and Hagler-Hearns. If Arguello makes the list, Pryor ought to be on there somewhere. Criminally underrated fighter.
Aaron Pryor , there is a name I havent heard in a long time , Drug addiction did him in though .i could be wrong here but I think Pryor still has the best K.O.% of any fighter

[Spider]

Tyson was not a technical fighter..his skills were raw power, toughness, and intimidation. and he about killed many with it. He could box though..unfortunately his proper trainer died.
sorry but no way , you take Tyson to the Championship rounds he is done , and Ali could take a punch and handle pain , Ali had his jaw broke vs norton and kept fighting ...... then Ali and his rope a dope ...... Tyson is done i n2 rounds 3 at the most

[-Slap-]

Slap, I freely admit that I don't know what the substance was. It is known that Lewis practiced voodoo and that he thought the "spells" thereof were effective. Regardless, it is doubtful that the substance had much impact on the fight, because there aren't any known substances that can give one the sort of advantageous jolt that would allow one to knockout a guy literally seconds after consuming the substance as Pryor did.

You know that much about pharmacueticals? I'm impressed. I know a lot about psychology and I know a junkie like Pryor would have derived an immediate pyschological advantage the second he consumed whatever was in that bottle. I'm sure over the next couple minutes, he would have derived whatever chemical advantage was intended as well.

But, regardless, it does not explain the fact that Pryor whipped Arguello EVEN WORSE 8 months later with no substance advantage.

If Arguello was well past his prime in the first fight, did you expect him to perform better a scant eight months after a 14 round war? Get real.


You brought up the # of fights Arguello had as evidence that he wasn't a great fighter anymore. I brought up the age plus Pryor's amateur record for two reasons: 1) Pryor fought in an era where amateur fights were fought sans headgear, therefore the physical risk was the same..and 2) Pryor's amateur competition (e.g. Hearns) were far superior to the stiffs Arguello fought in Nicaragua in the early part of his career.

Amatuer boxing and professional boxing are barely even the same sport. You have to know that. You do understand a knockdown is scored the same as a jab, right? Nobody in the amateur ranks is loading up to knock people out because its stupid. You'll lose a lopsided decision to some pittypat specialist.

The fearsome Thomas Hearns, my all time favorite boxer and one of my five favorite athletes. He had 163 amatuer bouts and he went 155-8. He recorded a total of eleven (11) knockouts.

Totally. Different. Sport.

Do you realize Pryor had a total of 30 pro fights when he met Arguello the first time? Arguello had 22 title fights. Not exactly Nicaraguan taxi drivers.

Its totally absurd to compare their level of competition when Arguello - three weight classes above his best weight - and at the very end of his peak, is the best win on Pryor's record.

He has literally no other impressive victories over a name fighter, save his victory over the ghost of Antonio Cervantes.


I know you're older than me and therefore witnessed these things first hand. My contacts with many of these fights are via DVD copies I get off the internet. I'm just giving my opinion based on what is known in the record and is available on tape, which is pretty powerful evidence in and of itself. I'm not trying to make this an ad hominem battle.

What evidence? You saw Pryor get decked by bums like DuJuan Johnson and Akio Kameda? You saw him get dumped by the ancient Cervantes? What does that mean? Eight defenses in a barren division make him the equal of a man who beat legends in three different weight classes?

That makes no sense.

[-Slap-]

"Hurricane" Peter McNeeley got snubbed.

No respect, I tell ya. :nono:

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/3509/mcneeleycw6.jpg

"I'm going to wrap you in my cocoon of horror."

[Spider]

Hagler got fkd vs Leonard. If he gets that decision, he's probably top 20. BS.
I watched that fight , Hagler threw away to many rounds early ...... I liked Hagler alot , but he blew it

[Spider]

Look at who he fought before 1986 and after up until the Douglas fight. It makes Roy Jones Jr look like he fought a champion every fight. An absolute joke. None of them were the class of boxing. They all allowed Tyson to get inside, couldn't take a punch and I will admit Tyson had a punch. Douglas could take a punch and so could Holyfield. All they had to do was get past the 3rd round and Tyson would wear down. Although the Holmes fight was in his twilight I did enjoy seeing him get pulverized. Tyson was a media creation and always will be.
I agree alot with you here , but under Gus D'Amato Tyson did have some skill throwing combinations and some pretty good head movment for defense..... not saying Tyson was top notch back then , but he did have some skill

[BroncoInferno]

You know that much about pharmacueticals? I'm impressed. I know a lot about psychology and I know a junkie like Pryor would have derived an immediate pyschological advantage the second he consumed whatever was in that bottle. I'm sure over the next couple minutes, he would have derived whatever chemical advantage was intended as well.

And what is your evidence that he was a helpless drug fiend? It's known he had drug issues after the Arguello battles, but what do you know of his issues before those fights? Even if true, you aren't seriously going to try and argue that being a drug fiend helped him win fights,are you? Drug addiction would be a clear detriment, if anything. And you do realize Arguello was a coke addict himself, don't you?

If Arguello was well past his prime in the first fight, did you expect him to perform better a scant eight months after a 14 round war? Get real.

He wasn't well past his prime at age 30.

Amatuer boxing and professional boxing are barely even the same sport. You have to know that. You do understand a knockdown is scored the same as a jab, right? Nobody in the amateur ranks is loading up to knock people out because its stupid. You'll lose a lopsided decision to some pittypat specialist.

130 plus amateur fights versus U.S. and international competition in a headgearless era was far superior to the "cab drivers" Arguello fought in the early stages of his pro career. You can't honestly mean to imply that Pryor whipping Thomas Hearns in the amateurs doesn't have far more value than Arguello whipping some farm hand in Nicaragua simply because it was technically the pro level?

Do you realize Pryor had a total of 30 pro fights when he met Arguello the first time? Arguello had 22 title fights. Not exactly Nicaraguan taxi drivers.

And despite that lack of experience, Pryor whipped him twice.

Its totally absurd to compare their level of competition when Arguello - three weight classes above his best weight - and at the very end of his peak, is the best win on Pryor's record.

Fair enough--Pryor whipped him twice regardless. And, no, Arguello was not the shot fighter you wish to imply he was.

He has literally no other impressive victories over a name fighter, save his victory over the ghost of Antonio Cervantes.

Funny how the great fighters he spanked you wish to downplay because they weren't 25. The Cerevantes fight was classic Pryor--he took the guys best shot, spit in his face, and then whipped his ass.

What evidence? You saw Pryor get decked by bums like DuJuan Johnson and Akio Kameda? You saw him get dumped by the ancient Cervantes? What does that mean? Eight defenses in a barren division make him the equal of a man who beat legends in three different weight classes?

That makes no sense.

It makes sense simply because he beat the guy twice. If you want to claim Arguello was washed up, go ahead. Not much backs up the claim.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

You guys keep saying "tyson couldnt win in the championship rounds" or "tyson fought no one worthy." Your arguments would hold more water if Tyson actually let these bums get the best of him. Also, when Tyson was in his prime (pre jail) i think he just lost that fight to Douglas, right? And aside from that, no one came close. It's not fair to say tyson couldnt fight in the championship rounds because he never let it get there. The guy was an assassin. And just because he wasnt a technical boxer, doesn't make him any worse. Also, comparing boxers of different eras is pointless because there is no way of knowing

[BroncoInferno]

The Tyson between '86-'88 was capable of beating anyone in the history of the heavyweight division. Not that he would definitely beat them, but that dude was capable. His 90 second victory against Michael Spinks is underrated (Spinks is one of the top 3 light heavyweights of all-time--after Bob Foster and Archie Moore--and was the first man to beat Larry Holmes (did it twice)). In that brief period, he was a motivated, well studied killer.

[TomServo]

B.S. as everyone as stated. the first time tyson fought anyone that fought back(buster douglas) he folded. and after that, time after time.
p.s i myself dont count larry holmes or michael spinks as a greatest anything.

[BroncoInferno]

B.S. as everyone as stated. the first time tyson fought anyone that fought back(buster douglas) he folded. and after that, time after time.
p.s i myself dont count larry holmes or michael spinks as a greatest anything.

So you don't think Spinks was a quality fighter? You do realize he was the first person to beat Larry Holmes, don't you (did it twice, in fact)? You do realize he is generally regarded as one of the top 3 light heavyweights of all-time, don't you? A guy with those qualifications isn't a top level fighter? Please. You can dismiss Spinks all you want; it only reveals your ignorance.

[TomServo]

tyson had his chance to be great and he blew it. or chewed it. the more i think about ali grabbing and holding...i think about tyson bullying and when that didnt didnt work anymore.well the chewing thing...the more i respect ali.
the youngest heavyweight champion in history might get more respect but for the fact he kinda sucked. kinda like the colts last year...yeah your SB champs but for Sb champs you really suck.

[TomServo]

michael spinks was fighting way over his weight was he not? and larry hol
mes? please

[SonOfLe-loLang]

michael spinks was fighting way over his weight was he not? and larry hol
mes? please

Do the Tyson retractors on this thread even read the pro tyson comments? I dont think they do.

[freak6]

His 90 second victory against Michael Spinks is underrated.

Since when do elbows count as punches?

It was impressive no doubt, but it was like a rapid dog let out on a rabbit, Tyson was just throwing and an elbow imo knocked out Spinks. Not that it mattered, Mike was unstoppable then.

He imo would have beaten any PREVIOUS heavyweight champ. Just my opinion, but what he did to Berbick, Bruno, Spinks, etc... He was an unbeatable psycho. When Cus passed, and he lost real boxing trainers, the best talent the sport every knew faded into drunken, coked out, hookerdom.

[TomServo]

larry holmes, michael spinks? not quiet the pinnacle of heavyweights are they? im not an ali fan, but if a person cant admit that the Ali Frazier Foreman days werent better days for boxing......
Tyson was just the "colts" of his day....not even just a bully that couldnt even beat an average fighter like holyfield.

[DB-Freak]

I guess the question comes down to how much harder did Tyson hit than say Foreman. I think Tyson hit harder. Either way...it would have been one hell of a fight.

Not according to the man who fought both Tyson and Foreman.

[gunns]

I agree alot with you here , but under Gus D'Amato Tyson did have some skill throwing combinations and some pretty good head movment for defense..... not saying Tyson was top notch back then , but he did have some skill

I agree with you here. If Cus hadn't died Tyson could possibly have been at the top of that list.

[-Slap-]

And what is your evidence that he was a helpless drug fiend? It's known he had drug issues after the Arguello battles, but what do you know of his issues before those fights? Even if true, you aren't seriously going to try and argue that being a drug fiend helped him win fights,are you? Drug addiction would be a clear detriment, if anything. And you do realize Arguello was a coke addict himself, don't you?



He wasn't well past his prime at age 30.



130 plus amateur fights versus U.S. and international competition in a headgearless era was far superior to the "cab drivers" Arguello fought in the early stages of his pro career. You can't honestly mean to imply that Pryor whipping Thomas Hearns in the amateurs doesn't have far more value than Arguello whipping some farm hand in Nicaragua simply because it was technically the pro level?



And despite that lack of experience, Pryor whipped him twice.



Fair enough--Pryor whipped him twice regardless. And, no, Arguello was not the shot fighter you wish to imply he was.



Funny how the great fighters he spanked you wish to downplay because they weren't 25. The Cerevantes fight was classic Pryor--he took the guys best shot, spit in his face, and then whipped his ass.



It makes sense simply because he beat the guy twice. If you want to claim Arguello was washed up, go ahead. Not much backs up the claim.

Hilarious. You got totally destroyed in this argument, but in typical Orange Mane fashion, you cannot say die.

Clearley, Arguello couldn't have been washed up at 30 after 80 fights. Pryor was retired by 30 with less than 40 fights on his record.

:rofl:

Obviously Marciano was better than Louis and Camacho was better than Leonard, too. They beat those guys.

I mean hell, Jumbo Cummings is obviously superior to Joe Frazier and Trevor Berbick just owns Ali. Obviously, because they won their matchups.

You've got nothing. ESPN Classics got you all fired up and now that you've been confronted with facts instead of hype, you can't admit you're wrong.

[-Slap-]

The Tyson between '86-'88 was capable of beating anyone in the history of the heavyweight division. Not that he would definitely beat them, but that dude was capable. His 90 second victory against Michael Spinks is underrated (Spinks is one of the top 3 light heavyweights of all-time--after Bob Foster and Archie Moore--and was the first man to beat Larry Holmes (did it twice)). In that brief period, he was a motivated, well studied killer.

Again, you have no sense of perspective on events that occurred before you were of reasoning age.

Michael Spinks is one of my favorite fighters of all time, but he came into the ring against Tyson with 0% chance of winning. His total non effort confirmed that. He was going to be totally overmatched in that fight anyway, but he barely trained for the bout. The mother of his daughter died shortly before the bout, but Butch Lewis wasn't going to let him postpone the match and risk losing the payday, so they went through with the fight.

Tyson from 86-88 was not capable of beating any heavyweight in history. Styles make fights and Tyson, even in his prime was tailor made for a guy like Ali. Foreman, in his prime, bounces Tyson like a superball. I don't like his chances against Louis or Holmes at their peak, either.

[Spider]

Again, you have no sense of perspective on events that occurred before you were of reasoning age.

Michael Spinks is one of my favorite fighters of all time, but he came into the ring against Tyson with 0% chance of winning. His total non effort confirmed that. He was going to be totally overmatched in that fight anyway, but he barely trained for the bout. The mother of his daughter died shortly before the bout, but Butch Lewis wasn't going to let him postpone the match and risk losing the payday, so they went through with the fight.

Tyson from 86-88 was not capable of beating any heavyweight in history. Styles make fights and Tyson, even in his prime was tailor made for a guy like Ali. Foreman, in his prime, bounces Tyson like a superball. I don't like his chances against Louis or Holmes at their peak, either.

one fight that would have been interesting Norton vs Tyson ........

[Spider]

Do the Tyson retractors on this thread even read the pro tyson comments? I dont think they do.
LOL yeah I read , and you know what , I have never seen Tyson put a ¼ separation in someones Jaw , Now that is punching power , Ali faught 10 rounds with that broken jaw , then went in for surgery right after ..........
I understand why People think Tyson is great , he is of your generation , you got to see his fights ........But Ali was simply the Best

[-Slap-]

one fight that would have been interesting Norton vs Tyson ........

I have my doubts. Norton might have had Ali's number, but he was scared to death whenever he fought a big puncher. He folded like a lawn chair against Foreman and Frazier. I can only imagine how badly he needed money to let that palooka Cooney knock him out when he was 40.

The Tyson matchups I would have loved to see were Tyson/Frazier and Tyson/Marciano.

[Spider]

I have my doubts. Norton might have had Ali's number, but he was scared to death whenever he fought a big puncher. He folded like a lawn chair against Foreman and Frazier. I can only imagine how badly he needed money to let that palooka Cooney knock him out when he was 40.

The Tyson matchups I would have loved to see were Tyson/Frazier and Tyson/Marciano.

Smokin Joe , he was a windmill ........Marciano was before my time ,so i really cant say much on that , all i really know is he never lost a fight ..........

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I agree. That decision was a total farce.Huh? Hagler gave that fight to him. Leonard took what he was given and won that fight.

[-Slap-]

Marvin threw away the first four rounds by fighting orthodox and Leonard had insisted upon - and got - a 12 round distance. He also insisted upon a 22 foot ring. Marvin's camp made all kinds of concessions. It was so stupid. He was the champion, but mentally, Ray was able to put him into the mindset of the challenger. It made me want to cry.

[Spider]

I think Hagler wanted that fight so bad ,he gave Leornard anything he wanted .I think Hagler tried to outsmart Leornard by switching styles .......

[tsr28]

Definitely a novice fan of the sport myself but as I grew up my father always spoke of Sonny Liston and how great he was. How that if he had really fought then Cassius Clay and not thrown the fights, that he would have dropped him both times. It is quite an interesting story in how those two fights played out and how Liston died at 38.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonny_Liston

Guess I'd like to hear from those that would have been able to see him fight back in the day.

[-Slap-]

I think Hagler wanted that fight so bad ,he gave Leornard anything he wanted .I think Hagler tried to outsmart Leornard by switching styles .......

You're right. Except Leonard was superior in the mental aspect of the game. If you want to give them everything, fine, but why switch from southpaw? What did he possibly hope to gain by adopting a more familiar fighting style? Did the silly bastard really believe Sugar Ray Leonard was going to think, "Oh no, he's fighting out of the orthodox stance 95% of my opponents have employed during my career. What am I going to do!?"

Silly man. Shame on Pat and Goodie Petronelli for not smacking sense into him after the second round at the very latest.

You know what? Marvin got the last laugh on all of them. He retired, with some bitterness, but Marvin lived kind of a bitter public persona anyway, and never looked back. He's living in Italy now, making bad action movies and enjoying bella italian women.

Sugar Ray came back and got horsewhipped by the likes of Terry Norris and Macho Camacho.......!Booya!

Not to mention the thorough boxing lesson Tommy Hearns dealt him in 1989, dropping him twice on the way to a ludicrous draw that disgusted all but the most myopic Sugar Ray fans.

[-Slap-]

Definitely a novice fan of the sport myself but as I grew up my father always spoke of Sonny Liston and how great he was. How that if he had really fought then Cassius Clay and not thrown the fights, that he would have dropped him both times. It is quite an interesting story in how those two fights played out and how Liston died at 38.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonny_Liston

Guess I'd like to hear from those that would have been able to see him fight back in the day.

Liston's true age was unknown, but he was pretty old when he fought Ali (Clay at the time). If you watch the tape of the fight, Ali just makes him miss all night. Of course it leaves a bad taste in people's mouths any time a guy quits on his stool. The next fight had the so-called phantom punch, but replays clearly show Ali connect. Liston's well known mob ties - the people who eventually murdered him - make it impossible not to look at both of those fights with some suspicion.

[BroncoInferno]

Hilarious. You got totally destroyed in this argument, but in typical Orange Mane fashion, you cannot say die.

Clearley, Arguello couldn't have been washed up at 30 after 80 fights. Pryor was retired by 30 with less than 40 fights on his record.

:rofl:

His skills were not noticeably deteriorated in any way in that fight. I've seen a number of Arguello's fights from earlier in his career (Alcala, Torres, Fernandez, Chacon, Mancini), and he was not in any respect a shot fighter against Pryor. Assertions on your part don't equate victory.

Obviously Marciano was better than Louis and Camacho was better than Leonard, too. They beat those guys. I mean hell, Jumbo Cummings is obviously superior to Joe Frazier and Trevor Berbick just owns Ali. Obviously, because they won their matchups.

Now you are talking about guys who really were washed up, and whose skills were noticeably deteriorated. I've already stated in the thread that I think Marciano is overrated because the top challengers of his era were geezers (Walcott, Charles, a by then pathetic Louis, Moore).

You've got nothing. ESPN Classics got you all fired up and now that you've been confronted with facts instead of hype, you can't admit you're wrong.

If I had to rely on ESPN Classics to learn about boxing history I would only see old Ali fights and three year old ESPN Friday Night Fights contests involving guys like Emmanuel Augustus. Like I said above, I've seen other earlier Arguello fights...his skills had not deteriorated in any significant way by the time he fought Pryor. Throwing out that he fought 80 fights doesn't prove he was washed up in any respect. Hell, guys like Chavez and Robinson fought brilliantly into triple digits.

[BroncoInferno]

Again, you have no sense of perspective on events that occurred before you were of reasoning age.

Michael Spinks is one of my favorite fighters of all time, but he came into the ring against Tyson with 0% chance of winning. His total non effort confirmed that. He was going to be totally overmatched in that fight anyway, but he barely trained for the bout. The mother of his daughter died shortly before the bout, but Butch Lewis wasn't going to let him postpone the match and risk losing the payday, so they went through with the fight.

Tyson from 86-88 was not capable of beating any heavyweight in history. Styles make fights and Tyson, even in his prime was tailor made for a guy like Ali. Foreman, in his prime, bounces Tyson like a superball. I don't like his chances against Louis or Holmes at their peak, either.

As I said, I don't necessarily think he would win against those folks you mentioned, but his rare power and quickness would give him a chance. Ali and Foreman would have probably had their way with him, I agree, but I think a motivated Tyson in his prime gives guys like Marciano, Louis and Holmes some trouble.

I recall you mentioning that detail about Spinx's mother some months back. You may be right, he may have beaten Tyson if focused and well trained. He was an excellent fighter and it's a shame that when folks hear his name they normally remember the Tyson fight.

[BroncoInferno]

Not to mention the thorough boxing lesson Tommy Hearns dealt him in 1989, dropping him twice on the way to a ludicrous draw that disgusted all but the most myopic Sugar Ray fans.

Even Ray himself admits that Tommy won that fight.

[tsr28]

Liston's true age was unknown, but he was pretty old when he fought Ali (Clay at the time). If you watch the tape of the fight, Ali just makes him miss all night. Of course it leaves a bad taste in people's mouths any time a guy quits on his stool. The next fight had the so-called phantom punch, but replays clearly show Ali connect. Liston's well known mob ties - the people who eventually murdered him - make it impossible not to look at both of those fights with some suspicion.

As you said it's hard to judge what may or may not have been because the baggage Liston had. In that second fight though for how much of a bruiser he appeared to be that punch that drops him just looked very light, whether it was the temple or the chin.

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Liston claims a different story of why he stayed down which FWIW sounds funny though I've heard stories about death threats to his family and such:

http://espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Liston_Sonny.html

While Liston publicly denied taking a dive, Sports Illustrated writer Mark Kram said that years later Liston told him, "That guy [Ali] was crazy. I didn't want anything to do with him. And the Muslims were coming up. Who needed that? So I went down. I wasn't hit."

[-Slap-]

His skills were not noticeably deteriorated in any way in that fight. I've seen a number of Arguello's fights from earlier in his career (Alcala, Torres, Fernandez, Chacon, Mancini), and he was not in any respect a shot fighter against Pryor. Assertions on your part don't equate victory.



Now you are talking about guys who really were washed up, and whose skills were noticeably deteriorated. I've already stated in the thread that I think Marciano is overrated because the top challengers of his era were geezers (Walcott, Charles, a by then pathetic Louis, Moore).



If I had to rely on ESPN Classics to learn about boxing history I would only see old Ali fights and three year old ESPN Friday Night Fights contests involving guys like Emmanuel Augustus. Like I said above, I've seen other earlier Arguello fights...his skills had not deteriorated in any significant way by the time he fought Pryor. Throwing out that he fought 80 fights doesn't prove he was washed up in any respect. Hell, guys like Chavez and Robinson fought brilliantly into triple digits.

You continue to ignore the fact that Arguello's best fighting weights were at 126 and 130 pounds. Not 140 pounds. If you want to say Aaron Pryor was a better Junior Welterweight, I would agree. if you want to say he was the better fighter, you don't have a leg to stand on and you won't find any serious boxing historian who agrees.

You also ignore the fact that Pryor had megabucks waiting for him seven pounds heavier and he never moved up to fight Leonard, Hearns, Duran, Benitez. He was content to rule a completely barren division instead. Why?

You seem to think Arguello should still be in his prime at the age of 30, after 22 title fights, but completely disregard Pryor being done as a fighter at the same age.

[-Slap-]

Even Ray himself admits that Tommy won that fight.

Year later he did.

[-Slap-]

As I said, I don't necessarily think he would win against those folks you mentioned, but his rare power and quickness would give him a chance. Ali and Foreman would have probably had their way with him, I agree, but I think a motivated Tyson in his prime gives guys like Marciano, Louis and Holmes some trouble.

I recall you mentioning that detail about Spinx's mother some months back. You may be right, he may have beaten Tyson if focused and well trained. He was an excellent fighter and it's a shame that when folks hear his name they normally remember the Tyson fight.

I genuinely loved Michael Spinks as a fighter and I nearly lost my mind when he beat Holmes. He was the beneficiary of a very questionable decision in their second fight.

I doubt Spinks could have handled Tyson even if he had been 100% motivated. Like you said, he was catching Tyson in, or just past, his peak and he was giving away too much, in my opinion.

You have to remember, Spinks was a skinny light heavyweight. He was routinely scaling 170 pounds for bouts with a 175 pound limit. I think Mackie Shilstone only brought him up to 199 pounds for the first Holmes fight and he didn't carry much of his punch with him to heavyweight. He knocked out Cooney, but Gerry had the reflexes of a Brontosaurus at that point. What an enjoyable fight that was!

[SonOfLe-loLang]

LOL yeah I read , and you know what , I have never seen Tyson put a ¼ separation in someones Jaw , Now that is punching power , Ali faught 10 rounds with that broken jaw , then went in for surgery right after ..........
I understand why People think Tyson is great , he is of your generation , you got to see his fights ........But Ali was simply the Best



oh, i never said Tyson was the BEST EVER or that he was better than ALI...im just saying he didnt suck and wasnt overrated like tons of people on this thread are claiming.

[gunns]

oh, i never said Tyson was the BEST EVER or that he was better than ALI...im just saying he didnt suck and wasnt overrated like tons of people on this thread are claiming.

Tyson had talent and unbelievable power and probably would have been top 10 had Cus D'Amato not died and kept him focused. Tyson didn't know how to handle the fame and started believing his own press and from then on out he relied solely on his power. At times he would barely prepare for a fight. He surrounded himself with bad people who fed his ego and emptied his pockets. Sadly we will never know how good he really could have been, but he's not top 10.

[TexanBob]

Any list that doesn't put Muhammad Ali #1 doesn't really deserve an opinion.

Ali in his prime was The. Best. Ever. Nobody else can carry his jock. Period. End of sentence.

[TomServo]

wow still at at almost a day later. as i said in my first post on this subject-any sport that has judges- has big problems. one of the best heavyweights ever didnt even make the list. what was that cubans name? teofilo stevenson? he was a badaass but castro wouldnt let the man box except for the olympics.

[TomServo]

and...... before i go.......any sport that has don king as a major player i dont really take serious. might as well bet on pro wrestling.
i know kings influence has been waning....but anytime its "fight night" on HBO STARZ or whatever im way tuned to something else..including the merriweather de la hoya thing.