Clemens decides he will play for Yankees

[TDmvp]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2862088



i hate baseball .... and the yanks ...

[DBruleU]

Why does this guy seem to always make a decision about a month or two into the season? Can't he make up his mind by about Feb?

He seems like a drama queen to me.

[Hogan11]

He's gotta follow his butt boy Andy everywhere it appears.

Oh well, at least he's out of the National League.

[Barry Ramey]

Clemens wants to be seen as a savior and saw the Yanks as the team that needs him most, plus the Astros aren't going anywhere. He is a drama queen and I hope he gets lit up all season long.

[-Slap-]

This kind of front running prima donna crap certainly wouldn't have flown when I was a kid. Of course, asking for special accommodations to extend their careers in comfort would have never crossed the minds of guys like Gibson and Seaver in the first place.

[Taco John]

Why does this guy seem to always make a decision about a month or two into the season?


Because he can.

[DBruleU]

Because he can.

Gee, I never thought about that. ::)

[PatsWin2002]

I figured NY would be his third choice. Wow...he went for the Evil Empire $$$$$.

I think they are beyond his help right now. Good!

[Jens1893]

Didn´t think he´d make up his mind by June or July ... George must have offered some extra $$$ ... god knows the Yankees´ rotation needs help.

[Tombstone RJ]

You gotta also know that Steinbrenner(sp?) is probably throwing all kinds of money at Clemens, begging him to come back. At this point, money is not an issue anymore, it's about saving the season (and Torre's job).

[MechanicalBull]

Clemens is one of my favorite players of all time but I hate it how he does this every year. Enough with guys like him and Favre and this fake "Am I going to retire or not?" deal.

[watermock]

I figured NY would be his third choice. Wow...he went for the Evil Empire $$$$$.

I think they are beyond his help right now. Good!

Sorry, Oakland is the evil fallen empire, followed by your Patsies. Hilarious!

[watermock]

Clemens doesn't even show up except for a start. Regardless, the Yankees are desperate after another pitcher popped an elbow.

[Taco John]

Gee, I never thought about that. ::)



Well, that's as simple as it is. Clemens can extend his career many years by playing truncated seasons. Teams will pay him because he's that good.

The guy makes his decision a month or two into the season because he can.

[PatsWin2002]

Boston was the best story. It was a way to finish where he started....no pressure after the 2004 win.

This year we don't even need him if all our pitchers stay healthy. He could've just gone for the ride and helped us punish NY and keep them down.

I think he made the wrong decision for the wrong reason.

[Taco John]

Boston was the best story. It was a way to finish where he started...



You think this is Clemens last season? I don't. I think we're going to get this same story for the next 3 years.

[Tombstone RJ]

Boston was the best story. It was a way to finish where he started....no pressure after the 2004 win.

This year we don't even need him if all our pitchers stay healthy. He could've just gone for the ride and helped us punish NY and keep them down.

I think he made the wrong decision for the wrong reason.

I can't stand the Yankees either, but it makes more sense for Clemens to go to NY. First, the Yankees NEED him, and they will PAY big bucks for his services. Secondly, if he helps the Yankees win and they get to the post season, he's seen as Superman. If the Yankees tank, it's not his fault because they suck anyway, and it was a desperate move (and he still makes $20m).

[MechanicalBull]

You think this is Clemens last season? I don't. I think we're going to get this same story for the next 3 years.

I agree, I don't think it's his last season unless the Yanks win the World Series then he might call it a career if he feels like it. ESPN is reporting he will be ready to go in about 1-2 months.

[Jens1893]

Boston was the best story. It was a way to finish where he started....no pressure after the 2004 win.

This year we don't even need him if all our pitchers stay healthy. He could've just gone for the ride and helped us punish NY and keep them down.

I think he made the wrong decision for the wrong reason.

As if you ****ing need a pitcher of Clemens´ caliber with Beckett, Schilling and Dice-K. Adding Clemens to that would be almost unfair. How the **** could you beat a 4 men rotation of Beckett, Schilling, Clemens and Dice-K in a 7 game series?

[Clockwork Orange]

As if you ****ing need a pitcher of Clemens´ caliber with Beckett, Schilling and Dice-K. Adding Clemens to that would be almost unfair. How the **** could you beat a 4 men rotation of Beckett, Schilling, Clemens and Dice-K in a 7 game series?

Sssshhhh, don't remind Boston fan that the only team they don't outspend is the Yankees.

[Drek]

Sssshhhh, don't remind Boston fan that the only team they don't outspend is the Yankees.

And the gap between the Sox and Yankees ($52M) is bigger than the gap between the Sox and the #15 payroll Houston Astros. So?

For several years now the Sox have been back and forth with the Mets for #2 and Chicago, Anaheim, and L.A. have been nipping at their heels. This year when those teams only marginally increased payroll the Sox added Matsuzaka, Drew, and Lugo, a preemptive move to get maximum return out of the last year on each of Schilling's and Lowell's contracts, with Manny and Varitek only two years removed from the end of their tenure.

The Sox saw a window in which to win now, they hit it hard and so far its paying off. You'll likely see their payroll normalize as older contracts retire or move on. Meanwhile the Yankees will constantly keep their payroll high enough to cover two other top 5 teams.

Clemens choosing the Yankees doesn't surprise me. The Sox have a solid top four (Schilling, Beckett, Matsuzaka, and Wakefield) and a handful of options for #5 (Tavarez, Hansack, and most importantly Lester). They aren't in desperate need and therefore aren't offering crazy money.

Meanwhile the Yankees' rotation is in absolute disarray. They'll pay more (reportedly $28M contract prorated for the two months he's missed, making him $20M, last year he had a $22M contract prorated to $12M), put up with more, and give him the chance to play the hero again. Clemens is arguably the best pitcher of all time but he is the poster child for self absorbed athletes.

I'm sure Clemens sees this as a great chance to be the white knight saving the day in New York once again, then he'll replay this drama again next year. He won't go to the Red Sox until he's truly ready to retire because thats the storybook ending he craves. Personally I'm hoping Beckett, Matsuzaka, and Lester are so damn good that the Sox don't even waste their time.

[Clockwork Orange]

And the gap between the Sox and Yankees ($52M) is bigger than the gap between the Sox and the #15 payroll Houston Astros. So?

For several years now the Sox have been back and forth with the Mets for #2 and Chicago, Anaheim, and L.A. have been nipping at their heels. This year when those teams only marginally increased payroll the Sox added Matsuzaka, Drew, and Lugo, a preemptive move to get maximum return out of the last year on each of Schilling's and Lowell's contracts, with Manny and Varitek only two years removed from the end of their tenure.

The Sox saw a window in which to win now, they hit it hard and so far its paying off. You'll likely see their payroll normalize as older contracts retire or move on. Meanwhile the Yankees will constantly keep their payroll high enough to cover two other top 5 teams.

Clemens choosing the Yankees doesn't surprise me. The Sox have a solid top four (Schilling, Beckett, Matsuzaka, and Wakefield) and a handful of options for #5 (Tavarez, Hansack, and most importantly Lester). They aren't in desperate need and therefore aren't offering crazy money.

Meanwhile the Yankees' rotation is in absolute disarray. They'll pay more (reportedly $28M contract prorated for the two months he's missed, making him $20M, last year he had a $22M contract prorated to $12M), put up with more, and give him the chance to play the hero again. Clemens is arguably the best pitcher of all time but he is the poster child for self absorbed athletes.

I'm sure Clemens sees this as a great chance to be the white knight saving the day in New York once again, then he'll replay this drama again next year. He won't go to the Red Sox until he's truly ready to retire because thats the storybook ending he craves. Personally I'm hoping Beckett, Matsuzaka, and Lester are so damn good that the Sox don't even waste their time.

Whatever makes you feel better about it. To most of the rest of the league, the Red Sox aren't much different from the Yankees, whether you want to believe it or not. Paying $50 million just for the chance to talk to a pitcher tends to do that.

[rbackfactory80]

My friend was a caddy for Clemens at a golf club in Arizona and he called him Mr. Clemens. Clemens looked down at him and told my friend never to call him that and if he had anything to say to him call him the rocket. What a dick.

[TheChamp24]

Really, I think I'm losing respect for Clemens. Wait until some team throws $28 million at you in May, then only pitch for half a season not really caring what happens. Yeah, whatever.

[PatsWin2002]

And the gap between the Sox and Yankees ($52M) is bigger than the gap between the Sox and the #15 payroll Houston Astros. So?

For several years now the Sox have been back and forth with the Mets for #2 and Chicago, Anaheim, and L.A. have been nipping at their heels. This year when those teams only marginally increased payroll the Sox added Matsuzaka, Drew, and Lugo, a preemptive move to get maximum return out of the last year on each of Schilling's and Lowell's contracts, with Manny and Varitek only two years removed from the end of their tenure.

The Sox saw a window in which to win now, they hit it hard and so far its paying off. You'll likely see their payroll normalize as older contracts retire or move on. Meanwhile the Yankees will constantly keep their payroll high enough to cover two other top 5 teams.

Clemens choosing the Yankees doesn't surprise me. The Sox have a solid top four (Schilling, Beckett, Matsuzaka, and Wakefield) and a handful of options for #5 (Tavarez, Hansack, and most importantly Lester). They aren't in desperate need and therefore aren't offering crazy money.

Meanwhile the Yankees' rotation is in absolute disarray. They'll pay more (reportedly $28M contract prorated for the two months he's missed, making him $20M, last year he had a $22M contract prorated to $12M), put up with more, and give him the chance to play the hero again. Clemens is arguably the best pitcher of all time but he is the poster child for self absorbed athletes.

I'm sure Clemens sees this as a great chance to be the white knight saving the day in New York once again, then he'll replay this drama again next year. He won't go to the Red Sox until he's truly ready to retire because thats the storybook ending he craves. Personally I'm hoping Beckett, Matsuzaka, and Lester are so damn good that the Sox don't even waste their time.

Drek, you're my new favorite poster. :)

Thankfully the Red Sox can spend what they can, but believe me, they have squeezed out every of the Fenway area to be able to compete with NY.

Management has had to be very creative and has had to add new roof seats every year!

We are MAXED OUT to get that close to the Yankees. What's scary is that nobody knows what the Yankees' ceiling even is. George would spend $300 million if it guaranteed him a championship.

So, from Denver, I'm sure the Red Sox and Yankees look similar, but NY is the driving force behind it all. We're just trying to keep up. And we really are much closer to the rest of the pack than people think.

NY isn't called The Evil Empire for nothing ya know. 8')

[PatsWin2002]

You think this is Clemens last season? I don't. I think we're going to get this same story for the next 3 years.

He'll be 45 in August. I think 3 years is a stretch unless he feels he has to outdo Nolan Ryan agewise or something.

All he had to do was finish in Boston, get 1 more ring, and wrap up his career and lifetime story with a cool little bow on top. :curtsey:

[TDmvp]

and for the record i used to love baseball , season ticket holder to Reds for 8 years when they went wire to wire , got rid of them after the STRIKE , and glad i dont have them now cuz i wouldnt watch roid ball ... i played baseball for 11 years on 2 or 3 teams a summer ... and was maybe going to get to play in college "catcher " and messed up my right knee .... but i loved the game till here in the last 10 years ...

i wasnt just haten on the game to hate :O)

[Lestat]

i don't give a crap if he wants to be a savior or not i'm just glad he's come back home to the Yankees :D

[OrangeShadow]

Whatever makes you feel better about it. To most of the rest of the league, the Red Sox aren't much different from the Yankees, whether you want to believe it or not. Paying $50 million just for the chance to talk to a pitcher tends to do that.

Whats the big deal with large market teams using their resources?

Teams with the top payrolls:
New York Yankees
Boston Red Sox
Los Angeles Angels
Chicago White Sox
New York Mets
Los Angeles Dodgers
Chicago Cubs

Want to know what 6 of those 7 teams have in common? they've been around since the 1800s or 1900s.
Meaning baseball has been a part of said teams city for a long, long time. The fans have such a dedication to their team. Creating large markets over long periods of time, and the teams are using it. I have no problem with the money ANY of those teams listed above spend.

[Clockwork Orange]

Whats the big deal with large market teams using their resources?

Teams with the top payrolls:
New York Yankees
Boston Red Sox
Los Angeles Angels
Chicago White Sox
New York Mets
Los Angeles Dodgers
Chicago Cubs

Want to know what 6 of those 7 teams have in common? they've been around since the 1800s or 1900s.
Meaning baseball has been a part of said teams city for a long, long time. The fans have such a dedication to their team. Creating large markets over long periods of time, and the teams are using it. I have no problem with the money ANY of those teams listed above spend.

Nothing wrong with it at all. Tell that to your fellow Red Sox fans who never stop whining about the money the Yankees spend.

The whole "evil empire" schtick is pretty flimsy when the people saying it are outspending 28 other teams.

[BroncoFiend]

Boston was the best story. It was a way to finish where he started....no pressure after the 2004 win.

This year we don't even need him if all our pitchers stay healthy. He could've just gone for the ride and helped us punish NY and keep them down.

I think he made the wrong decision for the wrong reason.

Boston treated him like garbage when he left there, NY always treated him much better, even when he went to Houston.

Make no mistake, this changes the complextion of the ENTIRE season, be afraid BoSox...be VERY afraid. Mwahahahaaaa:strong:

[PatsWin2002]

Boston treated him like garbage when he left there, NY always treated him much better, even when he went to Houston.

Make no mistake, this changes the complextion of the ENTIRE season, be afraid BoSox...be VERY afraid. Mwahahahaaaa:strong:

I wonder if Roger will be a "Real Yankee" before he's 50. :rofl:

[SureShot]

How many Cy Youngs did Clemens win after the Sox thought he was washed up?

[PatsWin2002]

How many Cy Youngs did Clemens win after the Sox thought he was washed up?

The answer is 3.

He won 2 in Toronto in 1997 and 1998. The third was in 2001 as a Yankee with a 3.51 ERA...you know....because they have the most sportswriters that vote. http://www.patriotsplanet.com/BB/images/smilies/jerkit.gif

It's important to note that we went with Pedro instead of Clemens who won the Cy in 1999 and 2000.

Personally, I think roger would've faded away (although getting fatter) if he'd stayed in Boston. All of his drive came from proving Dan Duquette wrong.

[TheChamp24]

He also won one in Houston, 2004 I think.

[PatsWin2002]

He also won one in Houston, 2004 I think.

Nope.

2002 Barry Zito (1)

2003 Roy Halladay (1)

2004 Johan Santana (1)

2005 Bartolo Colon (1)

2006 Johan Santana (2)

[Clockwork Orange]

Nope.

2002 Barry Zito (1)

2003 Roy Halladay (1)

2004 Johan Santana (1)

2005 Bartolo Colon (1)

2006 Johan Santana (2)

He did win it in 2004, Houston is in the NL. ;D

[PatsWin2002]

He did win it in 2004, Houston is in the NL. ;D


Oh, duh.

I always forget about that goofy league.

[Jens1893]

Oh, duh.

I always forget about that goofy league.

And people wonder why Red Sox fans are being called arrogant. :-*

[SureShot]

The answer is 3.

He won 2 in Toronto in 1997 and 1998. The third was in 2001 as a Yankee with a 3.51 ERA...you know....because they have the most sportswriters that vote. http://www.patriotsplanet.com/BB/images/smilies/jerkit.gif

It's important to note that we went with Pedro instead of Clemens who won the Cy in 1999 and 2000.

Personally, I think roger would've faded away (although getting fatter) if he'd stayed in Boston. All of his drive came from proving Dan Duquette wrong.

And you wonder why he doesn't want to finish his career there.

[SureShot]

Boston was the best story. It was a way to finish where he started....no pressure after the 2004 win.

This year we don't even need him if all our pitchers stay healthy. He could've just gone for the ride and helped us punish NY and keep them down.

I think he made the wrong decision for the wrong reason.

Keep them down how? The Sox haven't won the division since 1995.:spit:

[PatsWin2002]

Keep them down how? The Sox haven't won the division since 1995.:spit:

We tied once. :yayaya:

Even you have to admit that the Yankees have not been this bad off in a LONG TIME.

[TheChamp24]

Nope.

2002 Barry Zito (1)

2003 Roy Halladay (1)

2004 Johan Santana (1)

2005 Bartolo Colon (1)

2006 Johan Santana (2)

:oyvey: You should feel embarassed

Oh, duh.

I always forget about that goofy league.

Seriously, and people wonder why so many hate the Red Sox, Yankees, Mets and Cubs. I mean, the NL did only win the World Series last year and all.

[SureShot]

We tied once. :yayaya:

Even you have to admit that the Yankees have not been this bad off in a LONG TIME.

Yeah they have been such a mess if the win the division it will be their tenth in a row.

I don't think I will be throwing dirt on this team just yet. The Sox will find a way choke away the division lead. They always do.:wave:

[PatsWin2002]

:oyvey: You should feel embarassed



Seriously, and people wonder why so many hate the Red Sox, Yankees, Mets and Cubs. I mean, the NL did only win the World Series last year and all.

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[Taco John]

He'll be 45 in August. I think 3 years is a stretch unless he feels he has to outdo Nolan Ryan agewise or something.



I absolutely believe that he wants to out-do Nolan age-wise. I think he wants to carve out his own special place in history that nobody can touch...

[BroncoFiend]

The answer is 3.

He won 2 in Toronto in 1997 and 1998. The third was in 2001 as a Yankee with a 3.51 ERA...you know....because they have the most sportswriters that vote. http://www.patriotsplanet.com/BB/images/smilies/jerkit.gif

It's important to note that we went with Pedro instead of Clemens who won the Cy in 1999 and 2000.

Personally, I think roger would've faded away (although getting fatter) if he'd stayed in Boston. All of his drive came from proving Dan Duquette wrong.

I see you're not quite as objective with baseball as you are with football.

Not suprising considering you're a BoSox fan.

[PatsWin2002]

I see you're not quite as objective with baseball as you are with football.

Not suprising considering you're a BoSox fan.

BoSox fans are a pretty rabid bunch - especially when it concerns the Yankees.

If you've never lived in either place then you probably don't get it. It's the biggest rivalry in sports and it makes people nuts.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Clemens has turned into one of the biggest POS's in baseball pulling his prima donna BS every year. Who gives a sh8t about the Yankees or Red Sox, I hope they both tank this year so that Baseball chokes on their East Coast money trains.

[Taco John]

Why does this "hired gun" thing bother people so much? If I could command 20 million dollars playing only a half season of baseball, not only would I do it this year, I'd do it every year that I could get away with it.

Personally, I think it's a great thing for everyone involved. The Yankee's players don't have to go out there swinging hteir bats and sacrificing their bodies on a wasted season due to a bullpen that was spent by the end of April, and Clemens gets to extend his career in a role that extends his career thanks to a truncated workload.

I can't figure out why it bothers people. I just wish the Mariners were good enough that they could have been one of the teams in the running.

[PatsWin2002]

I can't figure out why it bothers people. I just wish the Mariners were good enough that they could have been one of the teams in the running.


GOOD enough or RICH enough?

The Mariners are a good team, but with the money that Roger was going to get, there was only one place he was going to go if he already decided he was going to the highest bidder...The Evil Empire.

That is what drives people outside of NY (and Boston, LA, etc.) crazy is that the rich get richer in baseball. This move doesn't inhibit the Yankees in anyway. Because if someone invented a time machine tomorrow that would make Satchell Paige available in his prime, guess who would be the frontrunners for getting him? (Cue the Darth Vader voice now.)

BTW, I am all for modeling baseball after football with a fixed cap. I don't think we'll ever see it since the player's union is so strong in baseball.

[SureShot]

GOOD enough or RICH enough?

The Mariners are a good team, but with the money that Roger was going to get, there was only one place he was going to go if he already decided he was going to the highest bidder...The Evil Empire.

That is what drives people outside of NY (and Boston, LA, etc.) crazy is that the rich get richer in baseball. This move doesn't inhibit the Yankees in anyway. Because if someone invented a time machine tomorrow that would make Satchell Paige available in his prime, guess who would be the frontrunners for getting him? (Cue the Darth Vader voice now.)

BTW, I am all for modeling baseball after football with a fixed cap. I don't think we'll ever see it since the player's union is so strong in baseball.

Wow. Pot meet kettle. What did you guys pay for Dice-k?

[PatsWin2002]

Wow. Pot meet kettle. What did you guys pay for Dice-k?

It was like 50 million to be able to TALK to him. I understand that there are "Haves" and "Have-Nots" in MLB and the Red Sox are one of the Haves.

When it comes to money, the Red Sox are a distant second to NY.

To give some perspective to those here that don't see it the way I do, pretend The Chargers and Chiefs spent 80 million each this year and the Broncos spent 120 million and the Raiders had an endless supply of money, but spent 220 million.

On paper, the Broncos would be playing for second place right out of the gate and have to hear the Chargers and Chiefs people lump them with the hated Raiders!

[Taco John]

GOOD enough or RICH enough?

The Mariners are a good team, but with the money that Roger was going to get, there was only one place he was going to go if he already decided he was going to the highest bidder...The Evil Empire.

That is what drives people outside of NY (and Boston, LA, etc.) crazy is that the rich get richer in baseball. This move doesn't inhibit the Yankees in anyway. Because if someone invented a time machine tomorrow that would make Satchell Paige available in his prime, guess who would be the frontrunners for getting him? (Cue the Darth Vader voice now.)

BTW, I am all for modeling baseball after football with a fixed cap. I don't think we'll ever see it since the player's union is so strong in baseball.


Didn't the Red Sox just pay $51 million dollars just to *talk* to Daisuke? In Mariner-land, we had this false illusion that we had the inside track on the guy.

[Taco John]

Hey, don't get me wrong... I hate the evil empire as much as anyone, and even align myself a distant Red Sox fan... They're who I rooted for when I was a kid. In fact, Clemens was my favorite pitcher back in my card collecting days (makes me wonder if I've got a stack of Clemens rookie cards floating around somewhere), back before I lost interest in baseball (a spark I've been re-kindling the last few years).

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Why does this "hired gun" thing bother people so much? If I could command 20 million dollars playing only a half season of baseball, not only would I do it this year, I'd do it every year that I could get away with it.

Personally, I think it's a great thing for everyone involved. The Yankee's players don't have to go out there swinging hteir bats and sacrificing their bodies on a wasted season due to a bullpen that was spent by the end of April, and Clemens gets to extend his career in a role that extends his career thanks to a truncated workload.

I can't figure out why it bothers people. I just wish the Mariners were good enough that they could have been one of the teams in the running.The "humble" Clemens announced his own signing during the Yankees game over the PA system, what a classy guy!

[Drek]

Whatever makes you feel better about it. To most of the rest of the league, the Red Sox aren't much different from the Yankees, whether you want to believe it or not. Paying $50 million just for the chance to talk to a pitcher tends to do that.

Its not about making myself feel better, its the reality of modern baseball. The Yankees, Sox, Orioles, and Blue Jays are all 90M+ payroll teams. We're effectively the premier league. Meanwhile you probably live in Colorado, where your local teams has some cheap owners who give you the short end of the financial stick. Don't whine about the Sox, whine about the Dodgers who've made some god awful financial decisions over the last decade but gets their asses pulled out of the fire thanks to a $100M payroll in a weak division.

The AL East is premier team against premier team week after week. We watch the gold standard of baseball over a 162 game stretch. If you're going to hold a grudge over baseball payrolls hold it against the teams who actually have a gross edge over their division.

You should be happy, baseball has done everything they could to remove the payroll edge from the playoffs. Once upon a time the World Series was a best of seven versus the best AL team and the best NL team. Now we have three pennant winner from each division and wild card getting to enter a best of 5 followed by two best of seven game scrums. Short series baseball is entirely different from 162 game baseball, and it levels the field.

Drek, you're my new favorite poster. :)

Thankfully the Red Sox can spend what they can, but believe me, they have squeezed out every of the Fenway area to be able to compete with NY.

Management has had to be very creative and has had to add new roof seats every year!

We are MAXED OUT to get that close to the Yankees. What's scary is that nobody knows what the Yankees' ceiling even is. George would spend $300 million if it guaranteed him a championship.

So, from Denver, I'm sure the Red Sox and Yankees look similar, but NY is the driving force behind it all. We're just trying to keep up. And we really are much closer to the rest of the pack than people think.

NY isn't called The Evil Empire for nothing ya know. 8')

The Red Sox aren't maxed out. Not by a long stretch. The Yankees organization is currently losing money. A lot of it actually. So where does that big payroll come from? Not Steinbrenner's pocket thats for sure. Nope, its all funded by the $1 BILLION dollar a year operating profits of the YES network. The Red Sox are in the same boat but in fact they make MORE money off Fenway, they cover their expenses at the ball park. Instead ownership is using the gigantic revenue 80% ownership in NESN brings to pay off the previous ownership's debts and to give them financial flexibility to do something like paying $51M for Matsuzaka.

The Sox aren't tapped out by a long stretch, neither are the yanks. Either one of them could step out and buy another top 10 payroll team with the yearly operating profits they hide behind the non-shared revenue generated by team owned networks.

My friend was a caddy for Clemens at a golf club in Arizona and he called him Mr. Clemens. Clemens looked down at him and told my friend never to call him that and if he had anything to say to him call him the rocket. What a dick.

Nothing better typifies Clemens than this anecdote. Its not even that he's a dick per se, he's just so in love with his own aura and fame. To him he's the "ROCKET", greatest pitcher of all time, yada yada. He lives for the aura and can't give it up. The dedication he's had to his baseball career is otherworldly and its easy to understand how a giant ego was required to keep that alive for over 20 years now. Doesn't excuse it, but it makes it very understandable. That said, he's easily one of the greatest pitchers of all time and the only modern era pitcher who can even compares is Pedro who had a stretch of dominance unmatched since Kofax's short lived but stellar career.

Boston treated him like garbage when he left there, NY always treated him much better, even when he went to Houston.

Make no mistake, this changes the complextion of the ENTIRE season, be afraid BoSox...be VERY afraid. Mwahahahaaaa:strong:

How many Cy Youngs did Clemens win after the Sox thought he was washed up?

Boston? Sorry, try Dan Duquette. Red Sox fans hated to lose Clemens, but Duquette was running the ship (ashore) and low balled Clemens horribly. Very few, if any, Sox fans were happy about that.


I can't figure out why it bothers people. I just wish the Mariners were good enough that they could have been one of the teams in the running.

The Mariners have a top 10 payroll. They could've gone after him if they ran their franchise better and didn't bring in one year wonders like Sexson and Beltre.

Didn't the Red Sox just pay $51 million dollars just to *talk* to Daisuke? In Mariner-land, we had this false illusion that we had the inside track on the guy.

No, they paid $51M for exclusive rights to Daisuke for the 2007 season. He couldn't go anywhere else and so the Sox got him at around $8-$9M in salary for the next six years. They paid a ton to make sure they got a bargain on the contract because luxury tax doesn't apply to the $51M payout.

Also, viewing Daisuke as $51M plus a $52M/6 year contract as just getting them a pitcher is totally off. Daisuke is the greatest Japanese sports celebrity since Ichiro, probably even more so as Matsuzaka has been a celebrity since he was 18 and won the high school championship over there by throwing a 16 inning complete game, pitching relief the next day, and a 9 inning complete game the day after that. He's instant marketing cache in a totally new market which the Yankees, Mariners, and MLB baseball as a whole has already primed for maximum profit. The Red Sox are effectively "going global" by getting Daisuke. Thats worth obscene amounts of money long term.

[defenseman]

i don't give a crap if he wants to be a savior or not i'm just glad he's come back home to the Yankees :D

He started in Boston, NY was AFTER Toronto. Get a clue...dman

*I look forward to seeing him get lit up like a roman candle..

[defenseman]

Boston treated him like garbage when he left there, NY always treated him much better, even when he went to Houston.

Make no mistake, this changes the complextion of the ENTIRE season, be afraid BoSox...be VERY afraid. Mwahahahaaaa:strong:

Sure...whatever you say.....keeping drinking the koolaid..:spit: Hilarious! ..dman

[defenseman]

I wonder if Roger will be a "Real Yankee" before he's 50. :rofl:

He'll NEVER be a real yankee......dman

[defenseman]

And people wonder why Red Sox fans are being called arrogant. :-*

that would be Streinbrenner and the habitual koolaid drinkers in NY who are arrogant....dman

*Outspend everyone and still falling short in recent past, on top of losing a 7 game series when you are up 3-0. just like a NY'er thinking throwing money at anything solves any problem. Freaking hilarious....:welcome:

[defenseman]

And you wonder why he doesn't want to finish his career there.

Because he's arrogant and greedly. and getting fatter by the season. Let alone needing some "help" from foreign substances to compete. He and giambi should be able to share needles wouldn't you say? I'm hearing Arod may have worked in a "juice-up" or two......dman

[defenseman]

GOOD enough or RICH enough?

The Mariners are a good team, but with the money that Roger was going to get, there was only one place he was going to go if he already decided he was going to the highest bidder...The Evil Empire.

That is what drives people outside of NY (and Boston, LA, etc.) crazy is that the rich get richer in baseball. This move doesn't inhibit the Yankees in anyway. Because if someone invented a time machine tomorrow that would make Satchell Paige available in his prime, guess who would be the frontrunners for getting him? (Cue the Darth Vader voice now.)

BTW, I am all for modeling baseball after football with a fixed cap. I don't think we'll ever see it since the player's union is so strong in baseball.

IF, MLB were to adopt the rules wrt owners and networks did in the NBA, some of it would definitely even out. In addition, raising the fines for being the top dog wrt spending would be nice also. Huge luxury taxes for overspending...dman

[Jens1893]

that would be Streinbrenner and the habitual koolaid drinkers in NY who are arrogant....dman

*Outspend everyone and still falling short in recent past, on top of losing a 7 game series when you are up 3-0. just like a NY'er thinking throwing money at anything solves any problem. Freaking hilarious....:welcome:

You realize MLB doesn´t consist of the Yankees and Red Sox only?

[defenseman]

The "humble" Clemens announced his own signing during the Yankees game over the PA system, what a classy guy!

Well, he's no different than the fans, arrogant to the end..dman

[Taco John]

The "humble" Clemens announced his own signing during the Yankees game over the PA system, what a classy guy!


What's wrong with that? I'm sure it wasn't his idea... But if I was a Yankee fan, I'd think it was a pretty awesome way to get the news.

I don't understand how it paints him as lacking class.

[defenseman]

What's wrong with that? I'm sure it wasn't his idea... But if I was a Yankee fan, I'd think it was a pretty awesome way to get the news.

I don't understand how it paints him as lacking class.

It's a bush leauge move IMHO, simple as that...dman

*Let your freaking arm do your talking, not a microphone. I hope he falls on his freaking sword..

[Nuggets4]

You realize MLB doesn´t consist of the Yankees and Red Sox only?

Damn Jens, you shouldn't have posted. Defenseman had a "mock-esque" stream of consecutive posts going there. It was pretty impressive.

[Jens1893]

Damn Jens, you shouldn't have posted. Defenseman had a "mock-esque" stream of consecutive posts going there. It was pretty impressive.

D-Man at least addressed other posts whereas Mock just does his inane, drunk ramblings.

[TheDave]

So let me get this straight... Clemens is 45 and can still throw like he did when he was 30. Yeah, he's all natural.

[defenseman]

Damn Jens, you shouldn't have posted. Defenseman had a "mock-esque" stream of consecutive posts going there. It was pretty impressive.

Why thanky lots there nuggs...dman

[defenseman]

You realize MLB doesn´t consist of the Yankees and Red Sox only?

You realize that every year, MLB and the networks, PRAY for a Red Sox/ Yankee AL championship series. It's viewership can rival most World series numbers. But, like you said, there are some other teams, who ever they are. NL? When did they start that leauge.......?......:thumbsup: ...dman

[Taco John]

It's a bush leauge move IMHO, simple as that...dman

*Let your freaking arm do your talking, not a microphone. I hope he falls on his freaking sword..



Aw, geez, whatever. It was a fan pleasing move to generate some excitement. Simple as that.

[Jens1893]

You realize that every year, MLB and the networks, PRAY for a Red Sox/ Yankee AL championship series. It's viewership can rival most World series numbers. But, like you said, there are some other teams, who ever they are. NL? When did they start that leauge.......?......:thumbsup: ...dman

I don´t really care about the networks or the ratings, I just think it´s incredibly arrogant when 2 sets of fans think the universe revolves around them.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Aw, geez, whatever. It was a fan pleasing move to generate some excitement. Simple as that.It was a last gasp at trying to salvage a season (make the playoffs) because of no pitching on the team by a filthy rich owner who buys championships. Baseball is pretty much nothing but a joke because of this kind of crap.

[PatsWin2002]

I just think it´s incredibly arrogant when 2 sets of fans think the universe revolves around them.

You're right...we pretty much do think that way. It's more about how big a rivalry it is than anything else.

I can't quite figure out why you care so much about it.

That's like me caring about Auburn vs. Alabama. I have no position on it either way, yet I know it means a lot to the parties involved. So be it.

[PatsWin2002]

It was a last gasp at trying to salvage a season (make the playoffs) because of no pitching on the team by a filthy rich owner who buys championships. Baseball is pretty much nothing but a joke because of this kind of crap.

I agree that there is fair competition...far from it.

But you could argue that baseball has had 7 different winners in the last 7 years and the Yankees have actually bought nothing.

I think the real problem lies with teams like the Devil Rays and Royals having virtually no chance....and the Yankees always will...even if they make lots of bad decisions.

[defenseman]

Aw, geez, whatever. It was a fan pleasing move to generate some excitement. Simple as that.

Call it what you will, I call it bush leauge, placating an ego in need of stroking, namely his own ego.....dman

[defenseman]

I don´t really care about the networks or the ratings, I just think it´s incredibly arrogant when 2 sets of fans think the universe revolves around them.

And do you think that bothers either a Red sox or a Yankee fan? Not in the least. They know who draws the numbers to the TV in October, it's Boston and New York, simple as that. No need to go any farther. It's like a good cat fight between two good looking sweeties, season in and season out. Never changes...dman

[defenseman]

It was a last gasp at trying to salvage a season (make the playoffs) because of no pitching on the team by a filthy rich owner who buys championships. Baseball is pretty much nothing but a joke because of this kind of crap.

Big bingo for the slug...dman

[watermock]

D-Man at least addressed other posts whereas Mock just does his inane, drunk ramblings.

I had 3 post, most early on the thread. Your an idiot. Sorry, you always have been.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I agree that there is fair competition...far from it.

But you could argue that baseball has had 7 different winners in the last 7 years and the Yankees have actually bought nothing.

I think the real problem lies with teams like the Devil Rays and Royals having virtually no chance....and the Yankees always will...even if they make lots of bad decisions.Well, it isn't because they weren't positioned to because of outspending all other teams. Two thirds of the league can't get to that position because they can't spend endlessly to acquire the best players in the league.

[HorseHead]

Clemens now has the money he needs to get his hair "frosted" again with highlights.....

the guy is a d-ck..always has been, always will be...

[Jens1893]

You're right...we pretty much do think that way. It's more about how big a rivalry it is than anything else.

I can't quite figure out why you care so much about it.

That's like me caring about Auburn vs. Alabama. I have no position on it either way, yet I know it means a lot to the parties involved. So be it.

I don´t really care that much about it, but the arrogance kinda peed me off a little. I just sometimes like to watch the sport in general ... I mean I don´t even have a favorite team.

[TheChamp24]

I love when fans of the big spending teams try to spin it around so it doens't look like they are the bad guys. Face it, if the MLB wants to be successful in the long run, they should instruct a cap so teams like Kansas City can keep their players and not have to trade them just to get something from them before they leave free agency.

[Drek]

I love when fans of the big spending teams try to spin it around so it doens't look like they are the bad guys. Face it, if the MLB wants to be successful in the long run, they should instruct a cap so teams like Kansas City can keep their players and not have to trade them just to get something from them before they leave free agency.

The "big money" teams aren't bad guys.

Not long ago a sports historian did an article on the myth of "big market v. small market" in baseball. At that point in time Toronto was one of the lowest payroll teams in baseball, but in the late 80's and early 90's they consistently were the highest payroll team in baseball. What happened?

The same could be said for dozens of other teams. The Mariners are perceived as a small market yet they have a $100M payroll for example.

Meanwhile you have the Twins, D-Rays, Marlins, etc. who pay less in salary than they get in revenue sharing. Those are the real bad guys, owners who're letting the league support their team and pocketing everything else they can.

Steinbrenner isn't a horrible owner. In fact, he's a great owner, any fan should wan him running their franchise because he's 100% dedicated to winning. Now Carl Polad, owner of the Minnesota Twins, is a horrible owner. They've had some great collections of talent but he refuses to spend on par with what his team is actually making. He even volunteered his team for contraction after a playoff season.

MLB hands out fat enough checks for any team to stay competitive. The Oakland A's and Florida Marlins are proof of that. They basically live off revenue sharing because they get crap attendance, but they still compete. Oakland makes the playoffs pretty much every year and the Marlins have won two World Series in their short history.

The financial imbalance of baseball is a myth. It plays a huge role over a 162 game season but four of the top ten teams play in the same division. The other divisions all leave plenty of room for a smaller market team that is managed well to succeed. Atlanta for example is a middle market team owned by a tight fisted mega corporation that won't open up payroll. Up until last year they won the pennant for a decade and a half despite being outspent year in and year out by the Mets and Phillies.

Don't bitch if your local team is staffed by business men. Just don't support them and hope they sell out to a legitimate co-op of baseball guys who'll then provide you with a winner. Thats the golden rule in baseball, more than any sport, the owners need to put winning first and hire a management staff accordingly.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

The "big money" teams aren't bad guys.
Uh, tell me how the lower tier teams compete compared to the "big money teams"...


------------------------------------------------------------


<table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr align="center" valign="bottom"> <td class="headerow"> Rank (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_The-Business-Of-Baseball_Rank.html)</td> <td class="headerow"> Team (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_The-Business-Of-Baseball_MetroArea.html)</td> <td class="headerow"> Current Value ¹ ($mil) (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_The-Business-Of-Baseball_Value.html)</td> <td class="headerow"> 1-Yr Value Change (%) (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_The-Business-Of-Baseball_YrChange.html)</td> <td class="headerow"> Debt/Value ² (%) (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_The-Business-Of-Baseball_DOV.html)</td> <td class="headerow"> Revenues ($mil)</td> <td class="headerow"> Operating Income ³ ($mil) (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_The-Business-Of-Baseball_Income.html)</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 1 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> New York Yankees (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_New-York-Yankees_334613.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 1,200 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 17 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 79 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 302 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> -25.2 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 3 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Boston Red Sox (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Boston-Red-Sox_330700.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 724 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 17 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 33 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 234 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 19.5 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 2 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> New York Mets (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_New-York-Mets_334564.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 736 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 22 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 83 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 217 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 24.4 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 4 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Los Angeles Dodgers (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Los-Angeles-Dodgers_338671.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 632 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 31 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 67 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 211 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 27.5 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 5 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Chicago Cubs (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Chicago-Cubs_335092.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 592 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 32 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 0 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 197 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 22.2 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 13 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Los-Angeles-Angels-of-Anaheim_338666.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 431 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 17 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 8 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 187 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 11.5 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 6 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> St Louis Cardinals (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_St-Louis-Cardinals_333240.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 460 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 7 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 53 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 184 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 14.0 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 7 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> San Francisco Giants (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_San-Francisco-Giants_339175.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 459 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 12 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 32 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 184 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 18.5 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 11 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Houston Astros (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Houston-Astros_335701.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 442 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 6 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 12 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 184 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 18.4 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 8 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Atlanta Braves (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Atlanta-Braves_336642.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 458 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 13 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 0 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 183 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 14.8 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 9 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Philadelphia Phillies (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Philadelphia-Phillies_335119.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 457 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 8 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 38 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 183 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 11.3 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 12 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Seattle Mariners (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Seattle-Mariners_331202.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 436 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 2 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 23 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 182 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 21.5 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 15 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Chicago White Sox (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Chicago-White-Sox_334758.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 381 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 21 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 10 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 173 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 19.5 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 19 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Detroit Tigers (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Detroit-Tigers_332729.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 357 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 22 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 59 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 170 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 8.7 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 16 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> San Diego Padres (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_San-Diego-Padres_336838.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 367 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 4 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 48 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 160 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 5.2 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 14 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Baltimore Orioles (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Baltimore-Orioles_336064.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 395 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 10 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 38 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 158 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 17.1 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 18 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Cleveland Indians (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Cleveland-Indians_333426.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 364 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 4 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 27 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 158 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 24.9 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 20 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Toronto Blue Jays (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Toronto-Blue-Jays_339533.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 344 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 20 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 0 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 157 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 11.0 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 17 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Texas Rangers (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Texas-Rangers_337656.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 365 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 3 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 73 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 155 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 11.2 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 21 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Arizona Diamondbacks (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Arizona-Diamondbacks_337798.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 339 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 11 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 68 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 154 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 6.4 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 22 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Colorado Rockies (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Colorado-Rockies_336931.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 317 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 6 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 28 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 151 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 23.9 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 23 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Cincinnati Reds (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Cincinnati-Reds_332528.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 307 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 12 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 13 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 146 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 22.4 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 24 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Oakland Athletics (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Oakland-Athletics_330413.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 292 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 24 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 31 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 146 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 14.5 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 10 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Washington Nationals (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Washington-Nationals_337401.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 447 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 2 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 56 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 144 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 19.5 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 26 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Milwaukee Brewers (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Milwaukee-Brewers_337147.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 287 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 22 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 42 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 144 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 20.8 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 28 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Pittsburgh Pirates (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Pittsburgh-Pirates_339965.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 274 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 10 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 37 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 137 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 25.3 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 29 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Tampa Bay Devil Rays (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Tampa-Bay-Devil-Rays_337975.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 267 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 28 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 15 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 134 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 20.2 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 25 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Minnesota Twins (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Minnesota-Twins_330400.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 288 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 33 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 31 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 131 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 14.8 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 27 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Kansas City Royals (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Kansas-City-Royals_339113.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 282 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 18 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 14 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 123 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 8.4 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 30 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Florida Marlins (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Florida-Marlins_336786.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 244 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 8 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 36 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 122 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 43.3</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Beantown Bronco]

Uh, tell me how the lower tier teams compete compared to the "big money teams"...


------------------------------------------------------------


<table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr align="center" valign="bottom"> <td class="headerow"> Rank (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_The-Business-Of-Baseball_Rank.html)</td> <td class="headerow"> Team (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_The-Business-Of-Baseball_MetroArea.html)</td> <td class="headerow"> Current Value ¹ ($mil) (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_The-Business-Of-Baseball_Value.html)</td> <td class="headerow"> 1-Yr Value Change (%) (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_The-Business-Of-Baseball_YrChange.html)</td> <td class="headerow"> Debt/Value ² (%) (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_The-Business-Of-Baseball_DOV.html)</td> <td class="headerow"> Revenues ($mil)</td> <td class="headerow"> Operating Income ³ ($mil) (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_The-Business-Of-Baseball_Income.html)</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 1 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> New York Yankees (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_New-York-Yankees_334613.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 1,200 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 17 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 79 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 302 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> -25.2 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 3 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Boston Red Sox (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Boston-Red-Sox_330700.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 724 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 17 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 33 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 234 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 19.5 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 2 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> New York Mets (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_New-York-Mets_334564.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 736 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 22 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 83 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 217 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 24.4 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 4 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Los Angeles Dodgers (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Los-Angeles-Dodgers_338671.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 632 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 31 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 67 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 211 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 27.5 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 5 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Chicago Cubs (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Chicago-Cubs_335092.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 592 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 32 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 0 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 197 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 22.2 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 13 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Los-Angeles-Angels-of-Anaheim_338666.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 431 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 17 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 8 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 187 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 11.5 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 6 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> St Louis Cardinals (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_St-Louis-Cardinals_333240.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 460 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 7 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 53 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 184 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 14.0 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 7 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> San Francisco Giants (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_San-Francisco-Giants_339175.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 459 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 12 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 32 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 184 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 18.5 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 11 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Houston Astros (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Houston-Astros_335701.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 442 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 6 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 12 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 184 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 18.4 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 8 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Atlanta Braves (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Atlanta-Braves_336642.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 458 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 13 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 0 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 183 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 14.8 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 9 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Philadelphia Phillies (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Philadelphia-Phillies_335119.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 457 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 8 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 38 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 183 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 11.3 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 12 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Seattle Mariners (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Seattle-Mariners_331202.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 436 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 2 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 23 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 182 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 21.5 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 15 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Chicago White Sox (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Chicago-White-Sox_334758.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 381 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 21 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 10 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 173 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 19.5 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 19 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Detroit Tigers (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Detroit-Tigers_332729.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 357 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 22 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 59 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 170 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 8.7 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 16 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> San Diego Padres (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_San-Diego-Padres_336838.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 367 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 4 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 48 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 160 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 5.2 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 14 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Baltimore Orioles (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Baltimore-Orioles_336064.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 395 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 10 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 38 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 158 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 17.1 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 18 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Cleveland Indians (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Cleveland-Indians_333426.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 364 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 4 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 27 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 158 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 24.9 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 20 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Toronto Blue Jays (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Toronto-Blue-Jays_339533.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 344 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 20 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 0 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 157 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 11.0 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 17 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Texas Rangers (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Texas-Rangers_337656.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 365 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 3 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 73 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 155 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 11.2 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 21 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Arizona Diamondbacks (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Arizona-Diamondbacks_337798.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 339 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 11 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 68 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 154 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 6.4 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 22 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Colorado Rockies (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Colorado-Rockies_336931.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 317 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 6 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 28 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 151 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 23.9 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 23 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Cincinnati Reds (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Cincinnati-Reds_332528.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 307 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 12 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 13 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 146 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 22.4 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 24 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Oakland Athletics (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Oakland-Athletics_330413.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 292 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 24 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 31 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 146 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 14.5 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 10 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Washington Nationals (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Washington-Nationals_337401.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 447 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 2 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 56 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 144 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 19.5 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 26 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Milwaukee Brewers (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Milwaukee-Brewers_337147.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 287 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 22 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 42 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 144 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 20.8 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 28 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Pittsburgh Pirates (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Pittsburgh-Pirates_339965.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 274 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 10 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 37 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 137 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 25.3 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 29 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Tampa Bay Devil Rays (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Tampa-Bay-Devil-Rays_337975.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 267 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 28 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 15 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 134 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 20.2 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 25 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Minnesota Twins (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Minnesota-Twins_330400.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 288 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 33 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 31 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 131 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 14.8 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 27 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Kansas City Royals (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Kansas-City-Royals_339113.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 282 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 18 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 14 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 123 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 8.4 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 30 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Florida Marlins (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Florida-Marlins_336786.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 244 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 8 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 36 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 122 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 43.3</td></tr></tbody></table>

Considering the bottom team on that list has won it all twice in their short life, I'd say they're competing just fine....or at least could compete each year if they put in just a tiny bit of effort.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Considering the bottom team on that list has won it all twice in their short life, I'd say they're competing just fine....or at least could compete each year if they put in just a tiny bit of effort.
That's BS. FL is the exception not the rule, Now take a look again what teams make up the upper tier and what teams make up the lower tier.

[Beantown Bronco]

That's BS. FL is the exception not the rule, Now take a look again what teams make up the upper tier and what teams make up the lower tier.

Half of the bottom feeders (revenue-wise) have put up competitive seasons in the past 10 or so years. They have chosen not to sustain that success on their own. It has nothing to do with how the teams at the top have spent their own money.

[Killericon]

Half of the bottom feeders (revenue-wise) have put up competitive seasons in the past 10 or so years. They have chosen not to sustain that success on their own. It has nothing to do with how the teams at the top have spent their own money.

Best Board Meeting Ever.

"Okay, on to our first order of business. Despite our small stature financially, we've managed to put together a winning ball club. Your thoughts?"

"I say we dismantle it. I don't like success. The Yankees and Red Sox need it more than we do. This is far too foreign for us. Let's go back to sucking."

"Interesting proposal. All in Favour say Aye"

"Aye"

"All Opposed, say Nay."

"..."

"The Ayes have it. Lets go suck again."

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Half of the bottom feeders (revenue-wise) have put up competitive seasons in the past 10 or so years. They have chosen not to sustain that success on their own. It has nothing to do with how the teams at the top have spent their own money.What? You mean the "bottom feeders" decided it was better to let the "top feeders" have their best players? Fricking ridiculous. Until there is a cap their will never be parody in MLB. It's the same joke year after year.

[Crushaholic]

Half of the bottom feeders (revenue-wise) have put up competitive seasons in the past 10 or so years. They have chosen not to sustain that success on their own. It has nothing to do with how the teams at the top have spent their own money.

That's a very good point. There is no salary cap, so the owners of the bottom teams just choose not to pay premium prices for players. You want to pay mediocre salaries, you're going to get mediocre players...

[Bronco_Beerslug]

That's a very good point. There is no salary cap, so the owners of the bottom teams just choose not to pay premium prices for players. You want to pay mediocre salaries, you're going to get mediocre players...Shakes head in disbelief. Try this...

If your revenues are "mediocre" your ability to pay top salaries for top players is mediocre. Trying to blame teams who aren't making anything near what the top teams make for not competing every year is ridiculous.

[Beantown Bronco]

If revenue were the be-all end-all, then all of the bottom revenue teams would suck every year. They don't. Some do and some don't. Some teams spend what little money they do on crap players. Others know how to spend that money and make the right decisions with it.

And what exactly is Tampa Bay's record vs. the Sox and Yankees. Go look it up. They have had more than a handful of winning series against those two squads...that's my definition of competitive. When the bottom dwellers can beat the top dogs on any given day.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

If revenue were the be-all end-all, then all of the bottom revenue teams would suck every year. They don't. Some do and some don't. Some teams spend what little money they do on crap players. Others know how to spend that money and make the right decisions with it.

And what exactly is Tampa Bay's record vs. the Sox and Yankees. Go look it up. They have had more than a handful of winning series against those two squads...that's my definition of competitive. When the bottom dwellers can beat the top dogs on any given day.
Then explain the disparity in total playoff appearances between the bottom tier and top tier?

Competitive? Ha!

[Beantown Bronco]

Then explain the disparity in total playoff appearances between the bottom tier and top tier?

Competitive? Ha!

You must be getting too used to basketball and hockey where sub-500 teams can do some damage year in and year out. You see in baseball, not everyone makes the playoffs....it's an amazing concept.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

You must be getting too used to basketball and hockey where sub-500 teams can do some damage year in and year out. You see in baseball, not everyone makes the playoffs....it's an amazing concept.
No sh*t! My point exactly! The teams (overall) that do have the higher revenues.

I don't watch Basketball and Hockey has a salary cap. Now please explain again why TB is a competitive baseball team?

[OrangeShadow]

That's BS. FL is the exception not the rule, Now take a look again what teams make up the upper tier and what teams make up the lower tier.

Its far from "BS". Peter gammons(most intellient baseball writer around IMO) gave an interview on mike and mike telling how most owners of small market teams pretty much pocket the money from revenue sharing. Take it for what you will but how do we know whether they are or not?

[TheChamp24]

I'm sorry, but to say the Royals could've been competitive if they payed Beltran and Damon is BS. Mets, Yanks, Red Sox all would've still spent more on them to get them, its still a no win situation. Until theres a cap, the big spending teams will overpay for players making it difficult for teams to keep alive.
And I love all these arguments. I mean, the Toronto teams in the early 90's? Someone said something about them. Uh, did you know they went out and got Roberto Alomar, Molitor, Olerud, and Ricky Henderson, Joe Carter, I mean, they were like the Yankees now.
Also, about the Braves, they are under new management that won't pay players. Before, they payed for their players, Maddux, Glavine, SMoltz, Chipper, Justice, etc.
And one last thing, do you people agree or disagree that the major market teams are at an advantage over the smaller market teams? (ie, the Yankees having an advantage over the Royals).

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Its far from "BS". Peter gammons(most intellient baseball writer around IMO) gave an interview on mike and mike telling how most owners of small market teams pretty much pocket the money from revenue sharing. Take it for what you will but how do we know whether they are or not?No, it is BS. Revenue sharing doesn't bring teams like the Devil Rays to same level as the Yankees revenue wise. It just throws a few carrots out there.
And far as Gammon's claims of small market teams pocking what they do get, that's BS too as most all have dramatic increases in spending save the Rockies and Royals but it still pales in comparison to amount of total revenues the top tier teams receive.

[Drek]

Uh, tell me how the lower tier teams compete compared to the "big money teams"...


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<table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr align="center" valign="bottom"> <td class="headerow"> Rank (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_The-Business-Of-Baseball_Rank.html)</td> <td class="headerow"> Team (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_The-Business-Of-Baseball_MetroArea.html)</td> <td class="headerow"> Current Value ¹ ($mil) (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_The-Business-Of-Baseball_Value.html)</td> <td class="headerow"> 1-Yr Value Change (%) (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_The-Business-Of-Baseball_YrChange.html)</td> <td class="headerow"> Debt/Value ² (%) (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_The-Business-Of-Baseball_DOV.html)</td> <td class="headerow"> Revenues ($mil)</td> <td class="headerow"> Operating Income ³ ($mil) (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_The-Business-Of-Baseball_Income.html)</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 1 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> New York Yankees (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_New-York-Yankees_334613.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 1,200 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 17 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 79 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 302 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> -25.2 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 3 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Boston Red Sox (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Boston-Red-Sox_330700.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 724 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 17 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 33 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 234 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 19.5 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 2 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> New York Mets (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_New-York-Mets_334564.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 736 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 22 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 83 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 217 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 24.4 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 4 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Los Angeles Dodgers (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Los-Angeles-Dodgers_338671.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 632 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 31 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 67 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 211 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 27.5 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 5 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Chicago Cubs (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Chicago-Cubs_335092.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 592 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 32 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 0 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 197 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 22.2 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 13 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Los-Angeles-Angels-of-Anaheim_338666.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 431 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 17 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 8 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 187 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 11.5 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 6 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> St Louis Cardinals (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_St-Louis-Cardinals_333240.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 460 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 7 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 53 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 184 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 14.0 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 7 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> San Francisco Giants (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_San-Francisco-Giants_339175.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 459 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 12 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 32 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 184 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 18.5 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 11 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Houston Astros (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Houston-Astros_335701.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 442 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 6 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 12 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 184 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 18.4 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 8 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Atlanta Braves (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Atlanta-Braves_336642.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 458 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 13 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 0 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 183 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 14.8 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 9 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Philadelphia Phillies (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Philadelphia-Phillies_335119.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 457 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 8 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 38 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 183 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 11.3 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 12 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Seattle Mariners (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Seattle-Mariners_331202.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 436 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 2 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 23 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 182 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 21.5 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 15 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Chicago White Sox (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Chicago-White-Sox_334758.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 381 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 21 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 10 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 173 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 19.5 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 19 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Detroit Tigers (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Detroit-Tigers_332729.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 357 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 22 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 59 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 170 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 8.7 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 16 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> San Diego Padres (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_San-Diego-Padres_336838.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 367 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 4 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 48 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 160 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 5.2 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 14 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Baltimore Orioles (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Baltimore-Orioles_336064.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 395 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 10 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 38 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 158 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 17.1 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 18 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Cleveland Indians (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Cleveland-Indians_333426.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 364 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 4 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 27 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 158 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 24.9 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 20 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Toronto Blue Jays (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Toronto-Blue-Jays_339533.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 344 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 20 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 0 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 157 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 11.0 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 17 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Texas Rangers (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Texas-Rangers_337656.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 365 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 3 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 73 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 155 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 11.2 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 21 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Arizona Diamondbacks (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Arizona-Diamondbacks_337798.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 339 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 11 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 68 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 154 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 6.4 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 22 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Colorado Rockies (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Colorado-Rockies_336931.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 317 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 6 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 28 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 151 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 23.9 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 23 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Cincinnati Reds (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Cincinnati-Reds_332528.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 307 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 12 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 13 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 146 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 22.4 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 24 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Oakland Athletics (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Oakland-Athletics_330413.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 292 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 24 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 31 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 146 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 14.5 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 10 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Washington Nationals (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Washington-Nationals_337401.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 447 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 2 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 56 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 144 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 19.5 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 26 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Milwaukee Brewers (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Milwaukee-Brewers_337147.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 287 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 22 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 42 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 144 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 20.8 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 28 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Pittsburgh Pirates (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Pittsburgh-Pirates_339965.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 274 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 10 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 37 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 137 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 25.3 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 29 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Tampa Bay Devil Rays (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Tampa-Bay-Devil-Rays_337975.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 267 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 28 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 15 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 134 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 20.2 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 25 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Minnesota Twins (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Minnesota-Twins_330400.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 288 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 33 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 31 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 131 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 14.8 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 27 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Kansas City Royals (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Kansas-City-Royals_339113.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 282 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 18 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 14 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 123 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 8.4 </td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td class="rowcolor" align="center"> 30 </td> <td class="rowcolor" nowrap="nowrap"> Florida Marlins (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Florida-Marlins_336786.html)</td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 244 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 8 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 36 </td> <td class="highlight" align="right"> 122 </td> <td class="rowcolor" align="right"> 43.3</td></tr></tbody></table>

Um, thanks for proving my point?

Your chart shows the Marlins with an revenue of $122M, 43.3M in operating income and they've been competitive with consistency.

Oakland is 24th in revenue, but post an income of 14.5M and challenge for hte pennant every year. The same could be said of Minnesota despite their horrible owner.

The 12th, 13th, 14th, 16th, and 18th revenue teams all pay around or above $90M in salary this year.

Notice how the operating income of the bottom third of your chart is greater than the top third?

Yeah, the evil big market teams are forcing the small market owners to pocket tens of millions while they, the big city devils, instead put it all back into players. How dare they.

[-Slap-]

Patsie is right about the way Clemens left the Red Sox. He was fat and ineffective and horrendously overpaid from 93-96, barely more than a .500 pitcher (40-39) over that four year span. The Red Sox let him go and he wins back to back Cy Youngs in Toronto. If I was a BoSox fan, I wouldn't want him anywhere near my team ever again after that.

I respect what Clemens has accomplished, but I definitely regard Greg Maddux as the superior pitcher of this generation. He's been more consistent than Clemens throughout his career and Maddux' peak years from 92 to 98 were as good or better than Clemens peak years from 86 to 92.

[Killericon]

Patsie is right about the way Clemens left the Red Sox. He was fat and ineffective and horrendously overpaid from 93-96, barely more than a .500 pitcher (40-39) over that four year span. The Red Sox let him go and he wins back to back Cy Youngs in Toronto. If I was a BoSox fan, I wouldn't want him anywhere near my team ever again after that.

I respect what Clemens has accomplished, but I definitely regard Greg Maddux as the superior pitcher of this generation. He's been more consistent than Clemens throughout his career and Maddux' peak years from 92 to 98 were as good or better than Clemens peak years from 86 to 92.

Seriously?

Wow. I would've thought Clemens' being the best of the past generation was beyond question. Huh.

[Pendejo]

Patsie is right about the way Clemens left the Red Sox. He was fat and ineffective and horrendously overpaid from 93-96, barely more than a .500 pitcher (40-39) over that four year span. The Red Sox let him go and he wins back to back Cy Youngs in Toronto. If I was a BoSox fan, I wouldn't want him anywhere near my team ever again after that.

I respect what Clemens has accomplished, but I definitely regard Greg Maddux as the superior pitcher of this generation. He's been more consistent than Clemens throughout his career and Maddux' peak years from 92 to 98 were as good or better than Clemens peak years from 86 to 92.

Sort of off the topic, but in this article from espn...http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2863411...both Wells and Maddux weigh in on Clemens' situation with the Yankmees.

[-Slap-]

Seriously?

Wow. I would've thought Clemens' being the best of the past generation was beyond question. Huh.

Except for strikeouts, where the more naturally gifted Clemens has a huge edge, their career numbers are very similar.

The only other major discrepancy is Greg didn't get suspiciously better at an advanced age. Of course, he didn't spend 1998 in Toronto with Jose Canseco, either.

[Killericon]

Except for strikeouts, where the more naturally gifted Clemens has a huge edge, their career numbers are very similar.

The only other major discrepancy is Greg didn't get suspiciously better at an advanced age. Of course, he didn't spend 1998 in Toronto with Jose Canseco, either.

But if they're similar, except for those two caveats, wouldn't that make Clemens the superior one?

[-Slap-]

But if they're similar, except for those two caveats, wouldn't that make Clemens the superior one?

Not in my opinion. During what should have been prime of his career from the age of 30 to 33, Clemens went 40-39 with ERAs over 4.00 twice in four years.

By contrast, Maddux went 71-33 with ERAs of 2.72, 2.22, 2.20 and 3.57 from the same age.

Maddux won 15 or more games in 17 straight seasons and 18 out of 19. Clemens can't begin to match that level of consistency.

Finally, Maddux has simply been a far better teammate than Clemens has over the years. Jake Peavy will tell you how much he's benefited from Maddux' wisdom this year and scores of young pitchers from Atlanta to Chicago to Los Angeles will echo that sentiment.

I will give Roger credit for kicking a young and directionless Curt Schilling in the ass many years ago, but for the most part, Roger is about Roger. Money, glory and naming all his kids with the first letter K.......:thumbsup:

Bottom line. If could start a major league franchise from scratch and I could have any starting pitcher of the last 20 years, I would select Greg Maddux without hesitating. Over the last 40 years, give me Tom Seaver.

[Clockwork Orange]

Over the last 40 years, give me Tom Seaver.

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/hofer_bios/images/Gibson_Bob_3.jpg

Let's rock. :strong:

[Killericon]

Except for strikeouts, where the more naturally gifted Clemens has a huge edge, their career numbers are very similar.

The only other major discrepancy is Greg didn't get suspiciously better at an advanced age. Of course, he didn't spend 1998 in Toronto with Jose Canseco, either.

This is, in my opinion, one of the darkest sides of the great late-90's Steroid usage. Fans will never look at a great athlete the same. Warranted or not, anyone who overperforms is looked at with a suspicious eye. It's a shame.

Not in my opinion. During what should have been prime of his career from the age of 30 to 33, Clemens went 40-39 with ERAs over 4.00 twice in four years.

By contrast, Maddux went 71-33 with ERAs of 2.72, 2.22, 2.20 and 3.57 from the same age.

Maddux won 15 or more games in 17 straight seasons and 18 out of 19. Clemens can't begin to match that level of consistency.

Finally, Maddux has simply been a far better teammate than Clemens has over the years. Jake Peavy will tell you how much he's benefited from Maddux' wisdom this year and scores of young pitchers from Atlanta to Chicago to Los Angeles will echo that sentiment.

I will give Roger credit for kicking a young and directionless Curt Schilling in the ass many years ago, but for the most part, Roger is about Roger. Money, glory and naming all his kids with the first letter K.......:thumbsup:

Bottom line. If could start a major league franchise from scratch and I could have any starting pitcher of the last 20 years, I would select Greg Maddux without hesitating. Over the last 40 years, give me Tom Seaver.

Perhaps Maddux is the better teammate, better franchise cornerstone, better person, and better mentor, but I just can't quite see how one can look at the on field performance alone, and declare Maddux the superior pitcher. Of course, I'm a baseball n00b.

[-Slap-]

This is, in my opinion, one of the darkest sides of the great late-90's Steroid usage. Fans will never look at a great athlete the same. Warranted or not, anyone who overperforms is looked at with a suspicious eye. It's a shame.

I actually try to be cautious of doing that. I just think some of the smoke I've seen over the years, (including comments by Roger) make me suspect there might be some fire. Still, nothing remotely solid that you can pin on him at this point. I agree, it is a shame. Blame the apologists who applaud the frauds who openly cheat for creating that climate.

Perhaps Maddux is the better teammate, better franchise cornerstone, better person, and better mentor, but I just can't quite see how one can look at the on field performance alone, and declare Maddux the superior pitcher. Of course, I'm a baseball n00b.

Its not the popular opinion. Most people regard Clemens as the better pitcher. I would say he was the more dominating pitcher, but not necessarily the better pitcher. Certainly not the better pitcher on a yearly basis.

[OrangeShadow]

Over the last 40 years, give me Tom Seaver.

Ok ill take pedro martinez in his prime :strong:

[defenseman]

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/hofer_bios/images/Gibson_Bob_3.jpg

Let's rock. :strong:

Bob Gibson was freaking awesome, just awesome. I'd take him on my team in a heartbeat. Mowed down the sox in '67...dman

[PatsWin2002]

Ok ill take pedro martinez in his prime :strong:


Pedro in 1999 was the most amazing thing I have ever seen. He made hitters look stupid.

Older folks said they hadn't seen anything like that since Koufax in '63 or so.

[Clockwork Orange]

Its not the popular opinion. Most people regard Clemens as the better pitcher. I would say he was the more dominating pitcher, but not necessarily the better pitcher. Certainly not the better pitcher on a yearly basis.

People will regard Clemens as the better pitcher because of the differing styles. Clemens was your classic fireballer who could throw in the upper 90's and just overpower hitters. Maddux was an artist who was a master of changing speeds, hitting spots and keeping hitters off balance. Both styles are effective, but the strikeout pitcher is more pleasing to the crowd.

If you thought of them as boxers, Clemens would be the one who went for the knockouts while Maddux was the technician who outboxed his opponents and won a lot of decisions.

If given a choice between the two, give me Maddux. Watching him pitch in his prime was a thing to behold. On top of being dominant on the mound, he fielded his position better than any other pitcher in the game, too.

[TheChamp24]

People will regard Clemens as the better pitcher because of the differing styles. Clemens was your classic fireballer who could throw in the upper 90's and just overpower hitters. Maddux was an artist who was a master of changing speeds, hitting spots and keeping hitters off balance. Both styles are effective, but the strikeout pitcher is more pleasing to the crowd.

If you thought of them as boxers, Clemens would be the one who went for the knockouts while Maddux was the technician who outboxed his opponents and won a lot of decisions.

If given a choice between the two, give me Maddux. Watching him pitch in his prime was a thing to behold. On top of being dominant on the mound, he fielded his position better than any other pitcher in the game, too.

I'd take Maddux too. Personally, I feel Maddux should retire after this season, but we'll see. It still amazes me his 1994-95 seasons, what he accomplished those years.
1994:
25 starts
16-6 record
10 complete games
3 shutouts
202 innings pitched
150 hits allowed
44 runs allowed(35 earned)
4 homeruns allowed
31 walks allowed
156 K's
1.56 ERA

1995:
28 starts
19-2 record
10 CG's
3 Shutouts
209 2/3's innings
147 hits allowed
39 runs allowed(38 earned)
8 homeruns allowed
23 walks
181 K's
1.63 ERA

So, in those 2 seasons(both shortened seasons btw) his total numbers were:
35-8
20 CG's
6 shutouts
411 2/3 innings pitched
297 hits allowed
83 runs allowed(73 earned)
12 homeruns allowed
54 walks
337 K's
ERA: 1.53

That is just amazing, if those seasons weren't strike shortened you could probably add 4 wins at least, a couple more CG's, just amazing. I mean, in 400+ innings of work, to only allow 12 homeruns, 54 walks, 297 hits? Thats incredible. Clemens' best 2 year period doesn't even come close to these 2 years.
I also find it incredible how consistent Maddux was, but one thing that is kinda surprising to me was how many losses he totaled. That, and his downhill slide late in his career, are the only negatives for Maddux.

[Beantown Bronco]

Pitching in the national league sure doesn't hurt a pitcher's stats either....I think Roger will be in for a rude awakening when he goes from pitching in one of the worst divisions in baseball to one of the best, and having to deal with the DH again. It's not a coincidence that his numbers in Houston were significantly better than his numbers were the last few years he was in the AL.....

[bendog]

I was watching the Atl/SD replay at the gym today, and the announcers were not all that kindly towards Clemens, the word Mercenary came out, and someone said "more than that." But they also said that Clemens knows he can't stand up for a full season. It's interesting that Maddux still can take the ball about every 5th day. Glavine too.

Nolan Ryan might have been able to do a Clemens in the end. Pitch the home games for 3/4 of a season.

[ludo21]

Clemens is such a tool.

"I didnt even read my contract.. I had no idea I had that clause in there"

bwhahaha... What a sweet gig... pitch 10-20 games at home, dont leave your home.... stay relaxed..