Tiny terrier saved kids from pit bulls

[mosca]

Sorry to say mosca, but you are coming off as incredibly short-sighted in this debate. With the phenomenel strength and gameness to fight that APBT show when committing to an attack, there ought to be special legislation that to own one, a person should be certified and trained to house a potentially lethal animal, period. Few dogs have the ability to kill other beings 5 to 10 times their own size. APBT are one of them. Sorry to say.

Any man-biting curr that is identified, ought to be euthanized, as well as it's entire bloodline. Such as was the old way. Cross-breeding and poor selective breeding in the past 25 years, has destroyed the breed. Truth be told, any APBT ought to have a pedigree; re: a papered animal.
I don't have much of a problem with additional certification and training requirements for pit bulls or any other large dog that can cause severe damage. This type of educational approach to the problem is a much better solution. Look at how many dogs are either tied up all day long, stay indoors most of the day, or even live in apartments. In my opinion, no dog should be without a yard or outdoor area that they can run in for -at least- one hour a day.

I agree with what you say on the breeding as well.

[RunByDesign]

I don't have much of a problem with additional certification and training requirements for pit bulls or any other large dog that can cause severe damage. This type of educational approach to the problem is a much better solution. Look at how many dogs are either tied up all day long, stay indoors most of the day, or even live in apartments. In my opinion, no dog should be without a yard or outdoor area that they can run in for -at least- one hour a day.

I agree with what you say on the breeding as well.

Perhaps I spoke too soon, as to your position. Your cantor may have been misinterpreted as blind devotion. My apologies.

Regarding the fundamental problem that the breed faces today, I believe there are 4 basic problems.

1- They are selectively bred for all the wrong reasons. It used to be that a bulldog ( a general term for APBT and/or Staffie or AS or a selectively bred game bulldog) was bred for gameness, loyalty and dispostion - (temperment in regards to human handlers) Today they are bred for aggressiveness, size, tenacity and looks.

2- Being an illegitimate endeavor, the sport of pitting, being illegal, has no legal oversight or regulations. A fundamental issue, only because for the people who do it entirely wrong, there is no consequence other than the fact that it is illegal. If they're never caught, what they actually do (in regards to training and breeding and conditioning) with their animals is irrelevant. If the bloodsport was legalized and regulated, it might present a different general outcome.

3- Few members of the American Public are responsible owners. Making problematic cases excasberated byway of incident.

4- Finally, bulldogs have always required special handling. The day and age where handlers had exhorbitant amounts of time to train and rear the animals properly are gone. In it's place is a fast-paced society that hardly has time for their own children, let alone these animals.

[Popps]

This type of educational approach to the problem is a much better solution. .

Did you even read the article I just posted? Do you think redneck dude who buys Pit bulls to "guard his shop" is going to respond to "education?"

These ***-sticks who buy Pit bulls don't need an education on them... THEY KNOW THE DOGS ARE DANGEROUS.

Why do you think they HAVE the dogs?!?

What part of that don't you understand? "Educating" criminals isn't going to stop them from abusing these dogs and hurting people.

Taking them out of their hands WILL.

... and before the next one of you trots out the "they'll just move to another breed" non-argument, we've already covered that. If we need to go after other breeds, we will.

[RunByDesign]

Taking them out of their hands WILL.


Which is why I support legislation.

1- Eliminate problem animals
2- Educate, Certify and Oversee potential handlers
3- Create the support network necessary to refine the bloodline through selective breeding.
4- Make the penalties for non-compliance harsh.

[Popps]

Which is why I support legislation.

1- Eliminate problem animals
2- Educate, Certify and Oversee potential handlers
3- Create the support network necessary to refine the bloodline through selective breeding.
4- Make the penalties for non-compliance harsh.

You're on top of this stuff. You sound like someone with the breed and society's best interest in mind... not like someone covering their eyes, ignoring the facts as they present themselves.

The funny thing is, if someone truly cared about the breed... they wouldn't want ANOTHER SINGLE Pit bull puppy born until we prove we're capable of handling them correctly.

Instead, people ignore over-breeding, attacks on children and dog-fighting in favor of ass-backwards debate tactics.

Yea... let's "educate" the meth addict who chose a Pit bull as his tough guy dog... who eventually ended up attacking a 6 year old. (This past weekend.)

There's no cruelty in not breeding these animals.

[Popps]

An 18-month-old girl was attacked by a pit bull last night after the dog wandered into her home in the 1400 block of Cardinal Drive.

The girl, whose name has not been released, was playing under a table inside her home when the dog apparently bit her face, said Capt. Wayne Zelinsky with Metro Animal Services.

The girl’s father heard the commotion and was able to get the dog into a utility closet, Zelinsky said.

The attack happened about 8:30 p.m.

The girl is in fair condition at Kosair Children’s Hospital, said a Kosair spokesman. Family at the hospital declined to comment on what happened.

Louisville Metro Police responded to the call and Animal Services assisted.

The dog is being quarantined at Animal Services for at least 10 days.

Zelinsky said the dog is licensed to an owner on Belmar Drive, just a few blocks from the home on Cardinal Drive.

When police went to the Belmar home, they found the remnants of a methamphetamine lab, said Alicia Smiley, a metro police spokeswoman.

The owner was not at home but has several outstanding warrants for drug charges, she said. His name was not released by police.

Zelinsky said the owner could also be cited for failing to properly restrain the dog or providing secure location.

If the owner wishes to keep the dog, he would have to comply with requirements of the dangerous dog ordinance that include having the animal spayed or neutered and provide a secured yard for the animal, Zelinsky said.


If the owner wishes to keep the dog?!!!!!!!???!!!!!!!!!!

Is that a ****ing joke? This dog tries to rip the face of an 18 month old girl, and we're going to let this guy keep it as long as he puts it in an "enclosed" yard?

Absolute insanity. Thankfully, most communities are dealing with this crap better than these ****ups.

[orange 4 life]

plenty of good info here. click the top link and take the time to read the study and the CONCLUSION. if you dont wanna read the whole thing, its summarized right in the beginning. link below is the identify the APBT page again. link on the bottom is to a page where you can read summaries of karen delise's findings. ive referenced her previously, but she took the INDIVIDUAL cases and examined them. she broke down the attacks case by case and was surprised at the findings. bottom line is she didnt find ANY evidence to support the whole "they just snap" theory. virtually ALL of the fatality cases (from all breeds for that matter) were a result of other factors. the family dog sleeping on the bed for 5 years tearing someones neck out one day never materialized......despite many stories that on the surface seemed to state just that.

below that are the examples of bad reporting i posted earlier. there are examples everywhere, but here are a few.
disclaimer below that (bottom of post) is in regards to the "clifton" study that keeps getting regurgitated here. they even know its inherantly misleading.

www.dogexpert.com/FatalDogAttacks/dogbreeds.pdf

www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html

http://www.fataldogattacks.com/

Examination of newspaper archival records dating back to the 1950s and 1960s reveal the same types of severe and fatal attacks occurring then as today. The only difference is the breed of dog responsible for these events. A random study of 74 severe and fatal attacks reported in the Evening Bulletin (Philadelphia, PA) from 1964-1968, show no severe or fatal attacks by Rottweilers and only one attack attributed to a Pit-Bull-type dog. The dogs involved in most of these incidents were the breeds that were popular at the time.

here are just a few examples of bad reporting:

Killer Pit Bulls Rip Granny to ShredsNew York Post (NYPost.com) Dec. 11, 2002Pet Pit Bulls Kill Woman, 80, in Her HomeThe New York Times (nytimes.com) Dec. 11, 2002
[The victim's daughter and granddaughter (owner of the dogs) could not believe the dogs, a female Pit Bull and a male Lab/Pit mix attacked and killed the elderly woman. The family hired a forensic pathologist to review the case. It was determined that although the victim had sustained some dog bites, all the bites were non-lethal and post-mortem. The grandmother was not "ripped to shreds" by the dogs but died from cardiac arrhythmia. Both dogs were eventually returned to their owners.]

Pit Bull Attack Victim Leaves Hospital WTVO (Channel 17) April 25, 2003
Man Struggles to Recover from Pit Bull Attack WTVO (Channel 17) April 29, 2003
[The man in this case was never bitten by a Pit bull. Indeed, there is no mention of the dog making contact with the man at all. Instead, the man was running from the dog and he ran into the road and "slammed" into a passing van. He sustained serious injuries from the collision with the vehicle.]

Pit Bull Horror New York Daily News February 7, 2004
Pit Bull Mauls 3-Year-Old's Face New York Newsday February 6, 2004
[A Bronx family owned a Boxer dog and a German Shepherd puppy that usually were kept in the basement as guard dogs. Two days before the girl was bitten, the family took in a Pit Bull. The 3-year-old was alone playing with the three dogs when a dogfight started. At this point the girl was bitten in the face by the Boxer (also reported to be an American bulldog). It was later acknowledged that the Pit bull (also reported to be a Pit bull mix and a "pet bulldog") was not involved in the attack on the girl]

Cortland Pit Bull Mauling Death WBNG.com (Channel 12) Dec. 9, 2002
[It was later determined that although the Pit bull participated in the death of 24-year-old Eric Tallman, the dog did not inflict the fatal wounds. The victim died from blunt force injury. It was later revealed that the victim was beaten to death by an acquaintance over a drug debt.]

Vancouver Girl Badly Injured in Pit Bull Attack CTV News Dec. 23, 2002
[This was a very severe attack and as such garnered much media attention. As a result of more in-depth coverage the breed was later correctly identified as a Mastiff/Rottweiler mixed breed]

Family's Pit Bull Kills Boy, 20, months The Gainesville Sun May 8, 2000
20-month-old Killed by Bull Terrier Naples Daily News May 9, 2000
[This child was not killed by a Pit Bull, nor a Bull Terrier, nor a "family" dog. How the dog came to be labelled a "Pit bull" is unexplained. The owner described the dog to be a Labrador/Mastiff/Rottweiler cattle dog. The dog was used to herd cattle and was kept chained on the property. Animal control and the Alachua Sheriff's office confirm the dog was a mixed breed. Photographs of the dog reveal no discernable breed.]
__________________

here is part of the disclaimer before listing fatal dog bite stats that others have used on this thread (clifton study) to attempt to show how dangerous pitbulls are:

Since there may be error in the identification of the breed of dog(s) involved in a fatal attack as reported in newspaper stories, it would be a mistake to use information posted on this site to support agendas promoting legislation banning, limiting or curtailing the ownership of certain breeds of dog, such as a so-called "pit bull" dog (read "Problems with American pit bull terrier identification"). Note that a pit bull is not a breed of dog, but instead the term has come to be widely used to describe a dog that has an appearance similar to a American Pit Bull terrier or American Staffordshire terrier. In some cases a dog described as a pit bull may in fact be an American Staff (AKC recognized) or an American Pit Bull (UKC recognized), but in other cases it may not. Since other breeds of dog physically resemble these breeds, mistaken identity is frequntly made and consequently numbers are inflated for the number of attacks involving so-called "pit bulls". Further, correct breed identification becomes more problematic when the dog involved in an attack is a mixed-breed. Hence, ambiguity exists when using the term "pit bull".

[Popps]

Jake, I've posted probably 5 articles in the last week alone, complete with pictures of the PIT BULL and complete with EYEWITNESS accounts, including from the FAMILIES themselves.

Can we stop pretending that we don't know what kinds of dogs these are? Btw... I'm not exactly cutting the Pit bull that happens to be 1/4 Lab a break here, either. Fairly good chance that it wasn't the Lab genes that made the dog rip a kids face off.

[Popps]

Hence, ambiguity exists when using the term "pit bull"

Only in the minds of PB owners.

We're talking about APBTs, Amstaffs and obvious mixes of either.

Mix an APBT with a Lab.

One breed was bred to hunt birds and retrieve them.

One was bred to fight another animal to the death.

Now.... I wonder which side the trouble's likely to come from?

[Popps]

(Notice the writers of this article were able to accurately identify a Pit bull, shown in the pic with its owner.)

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070708/LOCAL18/707080421/-1/topstoriesrecache

Pit bulls lead city in reported bites

Pit bulls accounted for 100 reported dog bites in Indianapolis during the first six months of this year, more than twice as many as any other single breed, city statistics show.

Peterson's concern grew after a pit bull attacked Camaya Fletcher, 7, in late May.
The girl's mother, Kimberly Harris, 33, said she was "dog-sitting" a pit bull at her Northeastside home. As Harris and Camaya let the excited pit bull into the backyard, the dog jumped up on Harris and then Camaya.
"I believed what triggered him was she began to scream" as the dog jumped on her, Harris said.
Camaya became entangled in the dog's chain and fell down, and the dog began snapping at the girl and then bit her left arm. Harris and the dog engaged in a tug-of-war over Camaya, with the dog dragging the girl down a slight incline behind the home.
An off-duty policeman, who happened to be visiting a friend in the neighborhood, helped rescue Camaya. He shot the dog, but it died only after the owner gave permission for animal-control officers to euthanize it.
Camaya had two surgeries, the first one lasting nearly nine hours. She now faces physical therapy. Doctors are unsure whether she will regain full use of her arm.
Camaya's mother doesn't know whether a city ban is the answer.
"It's hard to say," Harris said. "I don't know if anybody knows what triggers them."

Funny how many times we hear words like "trigger" and "switch" when it comes to these dogs, yet... people want to pretend there is no such thing.
Ask this woman, who had to literally save her daughter from being eaten if there's one. Apparently she thinks there is. She saw it.

[vancejohnson82]

The dog began playing...the 7 year old....repeat 7 year old...repeat 7 year old who doesnt live with the dog...nor probably had many interactions with the dog before this panicked...

and how many times do we see this on America's Funniest Animals when a smaller dog is doing the TUG OF WAR with the kids and people are laughing

don't get me wrong, its horrible and I agree with RESTRICTIONS on the dogs, but they aren't any more aggressive than other dogs...if neutered or spayed they are very much like other dogs, but when they make mistakes they are big ones


take it up with your Senator

[Rigs11]

Sounds like she was ripped to shreds, the skin was gone down to the bone.

umm she walked in screaming. most kids that get attacked by pits are usually carried.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

People arguing these dogs aren't more dangerous than other breeds must not be reading the papers or watching the news...

--------------------------------------------------------------
2 injured by Aurora pit bull
Victim in critical condition; another also hospitalized (http://www.denverpost.com/ci_6363539)
By Carlos Illescas and Simona Gallegos
Denver Post Staff Writers
Article Last Updated: 07/13/2007 06:23:57 AM MDT

As a pit bull mauled a woman and her granddaughter Thursday, others in the house tried to get the dog off them by stabbing it repeatedly with a large kitchen knife, Aurora police said.

But that didn't work. So when police arrived, the responding officer shot the dog in the head through a glass door.

Police dragged the dog outside, but it wasn't going down without a fight. Officers had to shoot it a second time.

"Someone in the home used a knife and was stabbing the dog, trying to get it off the two ladies, and it wasn't doing anything," Aurora police spokesman Bob Friel said. "Then the officers showed up and shot and killed it. The knife was still sticking out of the dog."

That was part of the drama Thursday as police responded just after 1 p.m. to 4291 S. Nucla Way on an out-of-control-dog call and a house full of screaming people.

The names of the victims were not released, but a woman in her 60s who was mauled by the pit bull was in critical condition, Friel said. Another woman, believed to be in her 20s, also was hospitalized. The two were visiting the home, where children were present.

Next-door neighbor Richard Vitamvas said he was working in his yard when the two visitors arrived at the home. About five minutes later, he heard screams and a young woman rushed out of the house with a small child under one arm and a phone in her free hand.

"She had blood on her hands and was pretty incoherent," he said. She handed him the phone, and he looked inside the house and saw another young woman fending off a dog with a serrated knife.

Vitamvas, who is a nurse, said he helped police tend to the older woman. He said she had been "bitten down to the bone" and was slipping in and out of consciousness.

Police did not say who lived at the home.

Vitamvas said the residents had moved into the house about three months ago but weren't home at the time of the attack. He said he has heard occasional barking for about a month.

Police said no pit bull is registered to live there.

The city banned pit bulls several years ago, but residents who owned the dogs before January 2006 were allowed to keep them as long as they met several requirements.

[Rigs11]

I don't have much of a problem with additional certification and training requirements for pit bulls or any other large dog that can cause severe damage. This type of educational approach to the problem is a much better solution. Look at how many dogs are either tied up all day long, stay indoors most of the day, or even live in apartments. In my opinion, no dog should be without a yard or outdoor area that they can run in for -at least- one hour a day.

I agree with what you say on the breeding as well.

Excellent post.:thumbs:

[orange 4 life]

1) Police did not say who lived at the home.

2) Vitamvas said the residents had moved into the house about three months ago but weren't home at the time of the attack. He said he has heard occasional barking for about a month.

3) Police said no pit bull is registered to live there.


1) what a surprise.

2) what a surprise.

3) what a surprise.

yep, just another "family pet" gone wild right?
boy i better watch myself when i go home tonight.
my dogs might bite my face off while theyre sitting in my lap.

oh vey

[kamakazi_kal]

Zzz...

[orange 4 life]

Zzz...

dont fall asleep my friend.
if you believe these guys, your dog might come rip your face off!!!

.....but there's no senationalism or hysteria going on. oyyyy

ps- its now become a running joke in our family. we give our dogs hugs and kisses and say things like "hello vicious killer. no ripping my face off okay?" in the typical dog/baby talk.
to spend an hour or two with my dogs is to realize there's just no way these guys are ever gonna "snap".

my friends with small children ALL let their kids play with our dogs, and they all also comment on how wonderfully sweet they are.
when very small children come over, we have to put the lab in the bedroom (he's a little testy at times), but both the pits just wanna love, and their sensitivity and understanding of human emotion is second to none.

[mosca]

Did you even read the article I just posted? Do you think redneck dude who buys Pit bulls to "guard his shop" is going to respond to "education?"

These ***-sticks who buy Pit bulls don't need an education on them... THEY KNOW THE DOGS ARE DANGEROUS.

I see what you're saying... some redneck lowlife types of course will never learn, and not only when it comes to handling of dogs. I'm not saying that education and certification will solve the entire problem, but in many cases it would help. In the cases where this does nothing, when we have idiots who refuse to comply, step #4 of RunByDesign's would work: 4- Make the penalties for non-compliance harsh.

Legislation like he proposed in his post is fine. Blanket prohibition is what I'm opposed to.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

1) what a surprise.
2) what a surprise.
3) what a surprise.
yep, just another "family pet" gone wild right?
boy i better watch myself when i go home tonight.
my dogs might bite my face off while theyre sitting in my lap.
oh veyI don't know, is it? But, it is another Pit Bull gone wild, and that's the point.

[Malcontent]

Bump...lets make 600 for this thread!!

[Popps]

dont fall asleep my friend.
if you believe these guys, your dog might come rip your face off!!!


Yea, that never happens. Let's scan the news from the last couple days...

Women recovering after pit bull attack in Aurora
http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=73633
-Family "pet" attacks visitors... and stabbing the dog wouldn't stop it.
The owner confirmed it was a Pit Bull. (Before we start the mistaken identity routine.)

Pit Bull attacks 2 year old**Warning: even more disturbing than usual**
http://www.wgrz.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=49447
-Family "pet"... complete with pictures, confirmed Pit Bull.

14 year old attacked by family pit bull
http://www.journalreview.com/articles/2007/07/13/news/01dog.txt
-The usual.

Teen bitten by pit bull while walking dog
http://www.whiotv.com/news/13675074/detail.htm
-Dog attacked her and her dog.

8 year old in serious condition after pit bull attack
http://www.chroniclet.com/2007/07/12/dog-mauls-lorain-boy/
As it turned out, the pit bull that attacked the 8-year-old boy was not necessarily a vicious dog, Mattei said.
“The kids are over there playing with it all the time,” Mattei said.
-But, there's no trigger in these dogs... right?

Woman's 2 dogs attacked by one Pit Bull
http://www.thestar.com/News/article/234611

Pit Bull shot after it bites Redding man
http://www.redding.com/news/2007/jul/12/police-kill-pit-bull-after-it-bites-man/
-The coveted Bluenose Pit bull

Child Protective Services removes girl after Pit bull attack
http://www.mineralwellsindex.com/local/local_story_192101340.html
-Pit bulls, working wonders for families everywhere.


Yea, why would anyone worry about these dogs, Jake? Maybe because all of these stories came from the past several days... and several days from now, there will be a similar slew of them?

Time to start looking at reality, my friend. Enough is enough.

[mosca]

Yea, that never happens. Let's scan the news from the last couple days...
Did you even read all of these articles, Popps? Seems like more than a few are not quite as cut 'n dry as the headlines make them out to be.
Pit Bull attacks 2 year old**Warning: even more disturbing than usual**
http://www.wgrz.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=49447
-Family "pet"... complete with pictures, confirmed Pit Bull.
This is the sodomy incident, where a 2-year old was left alone with a pit bull! Great parenting job here. The article, quoting the animal behavioral specialist: "She urges parents to never, ever leave their children alone with a dog."
14 year old attacked by family pit bull
http://www.journalreview.com/articles/2007/07/13/news/01dog.txt
-The usual.
This incident features a dog who was confused, thinking that the child it attacked had been hurting the younger child. I've personally seen this with dogs. Do not rough house or "play-fight" especially around larger dogs of this nature.

Teen bitten by pit bull while walking dog
http://www.whiotv.com/news/13675074/detail.htm
-Dog attacked her and her dog.
404 Not Found.
8 year old in serious condition after pit bull attack
http://www.chroniclet.com/2007/07/12/dog-mauls-lorain-boy/
As it turned out, the pit bull that attacked the 8-year-old boy was not necessarily a vicious dog, Mattei said.
“The kids are over there playing with it all the time,” Mattei said.
-But, there's no trigger in these dogs... right?
From the end of the article: Mattei said it was unfortunate Wednesday’s incident would likely solidify stereotypes on the pit bull breed, which aren’t responsible for most of the dog bite incidents in Lorain. So far this year, about five of 70 dog bites in Lorain were inflicted by pit bulls, Mattei said.
Pit Bull shot after it bites Redding man
http://www.redding.com/news/2007/jul/12/police-kill-pit-bull-after-it-bites-man/
-The coveted Bluenose Pit bull
This one is clearly a case of pit bull hysteria. Quoted as saying "This dog is not leaving this yard again alive," the police (not animal control) pepper sprayed, stun gunned, shot twice with a 12-guage shotgun, and then ran over the dog twice - after it bit a man on the thighs, "breaking the skin lightly".

From the article: But Redding Animal Regulation Capt. Lee Anne Smith, who is also director of operations for the Haven Humane Society, questioned the force used by police, calling it "excessive" and "inappropriate," and was miffed that police apparently thought animal control officers couldn't handle the situation.

"The fact that they shot the dog is not an issue," Smith said. "But in my nearly 20 years (as an animal regulation officer), I've never had a (police) officer intentionally run over a dog twice to stop it."

And, she said, the shotgun wound to the head that finally killed the dog may make it impossible to test it for rabies.

[Popps]

This is the sodomy incident, where a 2-year old was left alone with a pit bull! Great parenting job here. The article, quoting the animal behavioral specialist: "She urges parents to never, ever leave their children alone with a dog."

Wait... I thought Pit bulls were so great with kids?

Now, we "can't leave our kids alone" with them?

I grew up with dogs my whole life. I spent COUNTLESS hours alone with various breeds of dogs at all ages. My one year old baby girl literally steals the toys out of our Boxer's mouth and she (the dog) steps back and waits patiently. (See photo)

Sorry, man. If I can't leave my kid "alone" with a dog for a few minutes, that dog shouldn't be in a home.... period.

I keep hearing how great they are with kids. I guess that's aside from the ones who are busy trying to kill them.

[Popps]

" the police (not animal control) pepper sprayed, stun gunned, shot twice with a 12-guage shotgun, and then ran over the dog twice - after it bit a man on the thighs, "breaking the skin lightly". .

Yea, you're right... they should have waited until it killed or disfigured the man, as is often the case. Gosh, I wonder why the police were so aggressive with this breed of dog? You happen to read the article about the "family" Pit bull that attacked visitors, and continued to attack, even with a KNIFE BURIED IN ITS SIDE? The cops showed up... and this dog is still attacking the family, with a friggin' knife hanging out of it.

So, you'll forgive the cops if they are a bit touchy around the breed. It's not without reason.

[vancejohnson82]

so you would leave your naked two year old alone with ANY unfixed dog if it wasn't a pitbull????


great parenting

yeah, its a good thing that they shot the pitbull and then ran it over twice. I read that besides "lockjaw" pitbulls have a gene that brings them back to life as blood sucking zombies if you don't shoot them in the head and run them over with a car


give me a break......

some things people have to say on this issue are hilarious.

[Popps]

so you would leave your naked two year old alone with ANY unfixed dog if it wasn't a pitbull????

great parenting.

You have kids, man? I love the "perfect parents" of the world... most of them don't have kids, but just love to talk ****.

First off, the fact that the dog was "left alone" is irrelevant. Wrap your head around this...

NO ANIMAL THAT IS CAPABLE OF THIS should be around a child, whether the parents are standing right there or not.

Whether or not the parent should have allowed the dog to be with the child for a few moments is not the issue. The issue is... what is the CAPACITY and LIKELIHOOD of an animal to harm a child, and to what extent.


Yea... maybe the parent took her eye off the kid for a couple of seconds. If you ask her, she asked the kid to go into the next room and get a diaper. Not exactly leaving the kid in the house alone for hours. I'm not saying I'd make that choice, but let's not get carried away making yet more excuses for these dogs that continue to attack kids.

Bottom line.... don't tell me on one hand these dogs are so fantastic with kids, and then on the other hand.... that no kid is safe alone with them, even for a couple of minutes.

It's just another inconsistent excuse being thrown out in defense of a child attack.

[Popps]

yeah, its a good thing that they shot the pitbull and then ran it over twice. I read that besides "lockjaw" pitbulls have a gene that brings them back to life as blood sucking zombies if you don't shoot them in the head and run them over with a car
.

Yea, that's a funny exaggeration. Very comical.

Meanwhile, you can read the EYEWITNESS TESTIMONY FROM THE OWNER OF A PITBULL who said their dog attacked visitors, and continued to attack despite a knife being rammed into the thing.

Again... I wonder why the cops might choose to use a little excessive force on these dogs?

Hmmmmm......

[Popps]

Hey, it's been a few hours... should we check the newswire?

Yep... more news about these great family pets..

Woman hospitalized after pit bull attack in Aloha
Posted by The Oregonian July 14, 2007 09:56AM
Categories: Breaking News, Washington County
A 72-year-old woman was walking her small dog in Aloha on Friday afternoon when a 50-pound pit bull escaped from its owner's backyard and attacked her.

She picked up her dog and fell to the ground. The dog mangled her arms and hands until neighbors and the son of the dog's owner pulled it away, police say.

She was taken to Providence St. Vincent Medical Center, and her dog was not hurt. She, however, was bleeding badly, according to the Washington County Sheriffs's Office.

The owner of the dog, Leo Hammer, 41, who lives at 2725 S.W. 216th Ave. in Aloha, was cited for $500 for having a "vicious dog at large," police said. The dog was taken to an animal shelter in Hillsboro.

Hammer was not home when the pit bull escaped, but his children accidentally let the dog out of the house, where the backyard fence is in disrepair.

[mosca]

NO ANIMAL THAT IS CAPABLE OF THIS should be around a child, whether the parents are standing right there or not.
Most large dogs are capable of this. I agree somewhat with what you say, particularly when it comes to leaving a 2-year old alone with a large dog.


Whether or not the parent should have allowed the dog to be with the child for a few moments is not the issue. The issue is... what is the CAPACITY and LIKELIHOOD of an animal to harm a child, and to what extent.


Yea... maybe the parent took her eye off the kid for a couple of seconds. If you ask her, she asked the kid to go into the next room and get a diaper. Not exactly leaving the kid in the house alone for hours.
There is definitely a difference between taking your eye off your kid for a couple seconds, and leaving them unsupervised for longer periods of time. The article said that she left the child alone with the dog "for some short time" - not too specific. But note the words of the Animal Behavioral Specialist: "She urges parents to never, ever leave their children alone with a dog." It leads me to believe that the amount of time the 2-year old child was left unsupervised around the large dog was significant enough to warrant the specialist mentioning this.

[mosca]

Recent news of a boxer who apparently snapped... musta flipped the same "switch" that all of these pit bulls do, huh?

http://iccheshireonline.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_headline=police-hunt-owner-of-dog-who-attacked-boy-16&method=full&objectid=19444876&siteid=50020-name_page.html

Police hunt owner of dog who attacked boy, 16

Jul 12 2007

By Mark Smith, Widnes Weekly News


POLICE are hunting the owner of a dangerous dog which savaged the face of a teenage boy and left him scarred for life.

Eddie Morris, 16, of Orkney Close, Widnes, underwent major reconstructive surgery for stomach-churning injuries he suffered in an attack by a boxer dog.

Eddie said he was standing with friends near shops in Moorfield Road, Widnes, at 6.30pm on Monday, July 2, when he began stroking the dog after being given permission by its owner.

He turned to his friends then went back to stroke the dog when the owner entered a shop. At this point the dog attacked him.

Eddie said: 'I love dogs and so asked the owner if I could stroke it, he said it didn't bite so I did.

'While I was stroking it I looked away for a second and when I looked back it jumped up and bit into my face.

'It was hanging onto my face and I was in agony but somehow I managed to grab the dog and throw it against the wall.

'I was in shock and just ran home. I ran upstairs to the bathroom and saw that my face was covered in blood.' Carmel Morris, Eddie's mum, said: 'I was walking home from work when one of my son's friends came running up to me saying Eddie had been attacked by a dog.

'I ran upstairs to the bathroom and there was blood everywhere.

'His lip was hanging off and the dog had torn part of his face open.

'I've never seen injuries like it.' Eddie's injuries were so severe that he had to undergo two hours of plastic surgery the next day.

A police spokesman said: 'We are investigating this incident and would appeal for the owner to make contact with Widnes police.' mark.smith@cheshirenews.co.uk

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Recent news of a boxer who apparently snapped... musta flipped the same "switch" that all of these pit bulls do, huh?
Most all breeds can suddenly attack. I think the thread subject is that Pit Bulls do it more often than other breeds and their attacks are more brutal than other breeds.

[mosca]

Most all breeds can suddenly attack. I think the thread subject is that Pit Bulls do it more often than other breeds and their attacks are more brutal than other breeds.
Hmm... I thought that the thread subject was that there's a public hysteria selectively focusing on one breed of dog attacks.

More brutal? Not always. The boxer attack in the article I posted was pretty brutal. Some quotes: "major reconstructive surgery", "scarred for life", "lip hanging off", "torn part of his face open", "I've never seen injuries like it". Many of the reported pit bull attacks that have been listed on this thread don't even list similar damage.

[Popps]

Hmm... I thought that the thread subject was that there's a public hysteria selectively focusing on one breed of dog attacks.

More brutal? Not always. The boxer attack in the article I posted was pretty brutal. Some quotes: "major reconstructive surgery", "scarred for life", "lip hanging off", "torn part of his face open", "I've never seen injuries like it". Many of the reported pit bull attacks that have been listed on this thread don't even list similar damage.

Yea, problem is... Pit Bulls are doing this at about 100x the rate of Boxers.

So, if your point is that other dogs an attack... wonderful, and when any other specific breed comes anywhere near the damage Pit bulls are inflicting, perhaps society will deal with them, too.

Beyond that, you're comparing apples to oranges.

[Popps]

By the way... if Boxers DID ever attack (and damage) at this rate, I'd be all in favor of a breeding ban. It's sensible and logical.

But, they won't.

Why?

Because it's NOT just the owner.... IT'S THE BREED, and Pit Bulls have problems.

[mosca]

Yea, problem is... Pit Bulls are doing this at about 100x the rate of Boxers.

This is a huge exaggeration.

[Popps]

This is a huge exaggeration.

Keep telling yourself that....





In one study it was reported that 42% of all dog related killings of human beings in the United States are caused by Pit Bulls attacks, yet Pit Bulls constitute only 2% of all dogs. 70% of those mauling deaths were of children.

According to a large federal government study conducted over a 20 year period the Centers for Disease Control concluded that Attacks by pit bulls accounted for "only" a third of the fatal dog attacks in the United States. This study also cited the disproportionate threat these dogs pose to children. Children, according to the study, are the most vulnerable victims in dog attacks, with those under the age of 14 accounting for 42 percent of all dog bite injuries. Most of the mauled victims are between the ages of five and nine.

[vancejohnson82]

pure hysteria....

this conversation has been over for a long time

Popps wants to ban pitbulls....there are other people on the board who think it is stupid owners, not breed.....plain and simple disagreement

[Bronco_Beerslug]

pure hysteria....
this conversation has been over for a long time
Popps wants to ban pitbulls....there are other people on the board who think it is stupid owners, not breed.....plain and simple disagreementShould be pretty obvious it's some of both.

[Popps]

Popps wants to ban pitbulls.

It's not that I want to... I actually enjoy the breed... it's that I follow logic over skewed emotion.

.there are other people on the board who think it is stupid owners, not breed.....plain and simple disagreement

For the 100th time, it's both. YES... owners are ultimately at fault, and if our society allowed us to own mountain lions as pets, it would still be the owner who was ultimately at fault.

But, we have enough sense to know that our society isn't responsible enough for mountain lions as pets. We're also figuring out that we can't handle dogs bred to fight and kill each other, either.

You're right, it is pretty simple.

[mosca]

For the 100th time, it's both. YES... owners are ultimately at fault, and if our society allowed us to own mountain lions as pets, it would still be the owner who was ultimately at fault.
Apples and oranges. Pit bulls are not mountain lions. You're comparing a wild animal to a domesticated dog.

But, we have enough sense to know that our society isn't responsible enough for mountain lions as pets. We're also figuring out that we can't handle dogs bred to fight and kill each other, either.
We can't handle these dogs? No, some of the owners cannot handle them. Most others of us clearly can. The incompetence of some owners should not lead to blanket prohibition for all.

[orange 4 life]

Apples and oranges. Pit bulls are not mountain lions. You're comparing a wild animal to a domesticated dog.

We can't handle these dogs? No, some of the owners cannot handle them. Most others of us clearly can. The incompetence of some owners should not lead to blanket prohibition for all.

ive been mostly absent the last week since my wife has been very sick, but of course as soon as i have a few minutes to hop on i see that (unfortunately) this thread is still going strong.

what surprises me more than anything else in this thread is that popps, my friend and a fellow dog/animal lover (i dont question his motives AT ALL) is the one continuing to champion the anti-pitbull cause.
yes, HE doesnt want them all just plain killed, but unfortunately thats the result of the majority of bans that ive seen put in action and/or proposed.

what ALSO surprises me is why he and EVERYONE else for that matter doesnt agree with the legislation that exists in many cities and counties that DOES address dangerous dogs, but does it WITHOUT getting breed specific.
here in douglas county (dont know if ive EVER heard of a vicious attack out here?) the law is very clear. a "vicious" animal is determined by the actions of that animal, and the owners are responsible for those actions.

for the umpteenth time, the reason you see so many "pitbull" attacks is crystal clear.
1) there are more pitbulls than ever, and more backyard breeders than ever.
2) there are more ABUSED pitbulls than other dogs. you CAN dispute this, but you ALL know its a reality. just use your common sense.
3) the term "pitbull" is vague and open to interpretation (i always refer to mine as APBT's) AND the media sensationalizes many stories.
4) all the negative info actually causes MORE of these "tough guy" morons to go GET a "pitbull". this of course explains why this wasnt a problem in the 70's, 80's, or before.

unfortunately, VERY few people will change their minds. ive gotten through to more than a few people over the years, but by and large people just dont listen, and like popps, people dont care what the reasons are.

i guess if the thread has to continue then im along for the ride, but it is exhausting and unpleasant. breed specific legislation doesnt work.
again, also for the umpteenth time, if you wanna stop all this crap (regardless of breed), you go HARD after the owners of these dogs. you go HARD after these breeders.
do that and the casual "tough guy" owners (which of course make up the majority of the problem) will opt out. the dog wont look attractive if the consequences are severe.

[Popps]

Apples and oranges. Pit bulls are not mountain lions. You're comparing a wild animal to a domesticated dog.


No, I'm comparing an animal that society isn't responsible enough to own as a pet............... to an animal society isn't responsible enough to own as a pet.

Apples/Apples.

[Popps]

The incompetence of some owners should not lead to blanket prohibition for all.

Sure it should.

We don't NEED dogs that fight to the death and when mishandled, tear off the faces of family members and visitors.

Yes, I understand that they're perfect angels when the right people own them.

Unfortunately, the "right people" are few and far between in our society... and Pit bull dogs have no value to our society over any other breed. Conversely, their inherent risk deems them as LESS valuable than a working breed like labs.

So, yes... we regularly "punish" our society for the actions of small groups of people, and when there's no societal benefit to be lost, it's a no-brainer.

[Popps]

Our society has outlawed smoking weed.

I don't smoke, but I still think that's silly. But, that's what our society has decided.

Why? Because while some can probably smoke responsibly, most can't. (Yes, I'd agree with the argument that most can't handle alcohol responsibly, either.)

So, we can't handle the responsibility, and it was taken away.

The difference here is... if a guy misuses a bag of weed, it's unlikely that he'll hop a 6' retaining wall and maul an old lady and her dog.

Hence... society is beginning to deem itself incapable of the responsibility of certain dog breeds.

Perfectly sensible.

[mosca]

We don't NEED dogs that fight to the death and when mishandled, tear off the faces of family members and visitors.
No one needs any dogs. We do, however, have a right to own them. Whether or not we "need" them has no relation to whether or not the government should prohibit them. There's plenty of things that we don't "need" which can be dangerous when mishandled.

Unfortunately, the "right people" are few and far between in our society... and Pit bull dogs have no value to our society over any other breed. Conversely, their inherent risk deems them as LESS valuable than a working breed like labs.
You're making it out to seem as if proper pit bull owners are the minority, and the idiots who abuse them are the norm. I'd say that it's the other way around - the minority are those who don't take care of their animals, and happen to also draw all the negative publicity due to their dog attacking someone.

[mosca]

Our society has outlawed smoking weed.

I don't smoke, but I still think that's silly. But, that's what our society has decided.

Why? Because while some can probably smoke responsibly, most can't. (Yes, I'd agree with the argument that most can't handle alcohol responsibly, either.)

So, we can't handle the responsibility, and it was taken away.
I also don't smoke - but this decision of our society (marijuana prohibition) is another one that should be done away with.

[mosca]

what ALSO surprises me is why he and EVERYONE else for that matter doesnt agree with the legislation that exists in many cities and counties that DOES address dangerous dogs, but does it WITHOUT getting breed specific.
here in douglas county (dont know if ive EVER heard of a vicious attack out here?) the law is very clear. a "vicious" animal is determined by the actions of that animal, and the owners are responsible for those actions.
Here's a good example of legislation that is not breed specific. Long, but a great read:

http://www.southcoasttoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070515/NEWS/705150363/1018/OPINION

New Bedford sets example with law on vicious dogs

May 15, 2007 6:00 AM

Banning pit bulls is a wrong-headed and simplistic way of trying to control dangerous dogs in Massachusetts, a Legislative committee heard again and again Monday from pit bull lovers and others.

Instead, they were told, Massachusetts ought to look at New Bedford's 18-month-old dangerous dog ordinance, which is fast becoming the model for local communities trying to get a grip on dog attacks.

"Ours is working," said Manny Maciel, New Bedford's animal control officer and president of the Animal Control Officers of Massachusetts.

He testified before the committee that the city ordinance, enacted in late 2005, does exactly what the state ought to do: target irresponsible and dangerous dog owners.

"It goes after the deeds of the dog, the temperament it is showing," said Mr. Maciel. Drafted by City Councilors Linda Morad and Jane Gonsalves along with Mr. Maciel's office and various animal control groups, the ordinance avoids being breed-specific.

Instead, said Mr. Maciel, it allows animal control officers to judge a dog's aggressiveness and actions before slapping restrictions, requirements and increased possible penalties on owners who ignore the rules.

He said a dozen dogs are now on the "dangerous and vicious" list, and only three are pit bull mixes. The others include a boxer, three German shepherds, a Rottweiler, Labrador retriever, "mini-pini" (Doberman)-chihuahua mix "and, unfortunately, a Boston terrier, the state dog," he said.

"Without our ordinance, these dogs would still be out there with no restrictions to protect the public. With our ordinance, the responsibility is on the owner, where it should be."

There is no one bill in the Legislature targeting pit bulls, but an attack by one in Boston's Hyde Park neighborhood last week put the spotlight back on a breed that can be gentle if so trained, but can also be a vicious fighter.

"When they attack, they grab, they hold, they shake. And with the strength of their jaws and strength of their entire body, they are able to do enormous damage," Rep. Vincent Pedone, D-Worcester, told reporters.

But at Monday's hearing, Rep. Bradford Hill, R-Ipswich, was applauded by the crowd of 150 people when he said, "I feel very strongly that we should not punish a dog because of its breed, but because of its actions."

He spoke as the Municipalities and Regional Government Committee began sorting through various bills and suggestions for tougher animal control. No action on any legislation is expected until later in this session, when a comprehensive bill may be written.

"I think breed-specific legislation is odious," said Dr. Nicholas H. Dodman, the program director of the Animal Behavior Department of Clinical Sciences at the Tufts School of Veterinary Medicine. "It's fraught with all kinds of problems."

Among those problems: There are 25 different breeds that might appear to be pit bulls, making enforcement difficult. And pinpointing them would bypass other breeds that can be a threat, he said.

Dr. Dodman said any legislation ought to target breeders who purposely develop aggressive dogs. He cited the Doberman pinscher as one example of a dog that had a bad reputation, but has since had the aggressiveness removed through good breeding.

Karen Harght, co-owner along with Joan Hopkins of American Canine in Westport, concurred.

"When I was a child, Doberman pinschers had a horrible reputation. They were very aggressive, like pit bulls were. Then they kind of fell out of favor. And over the course of the last three decades the aggressiveness has been bred out of them. Now I see a lot of Dobermans that are sweet as pie."

She added, "I've seen some nice Rottweilers that are not nearly as aggressive as they used to be."

On the other hand, she said, "If I see an Akita, I turn around and go the other way."

Saying a breed-specific ban "is probably a mistake," she agreed that it can be hard to tell just what a pit bull is sometimes. "I don't even like using the term," she said.

Yet certain dogs, and certain breeds, are more demanding on their owners, and shelters are taking precautions to see that they are properly housed and trained. Shelters may hold a deposit until there is proof that a dog has been to behavior school, she said.

Gail Furtado, chairman of the board of Forever Paws, the Fall River-based no-kill shelter that holds the contract with New Bedford's animal control office, said the cities especially have a high pit bull population. The dogs can be gentle or they can be trouble. As a schoolteacher, she said, she sees a parallel between dogs who are trouble because their owners are in trouble, and students who are trouble because their parents are trouble.

Yet it is natural to be more cautious around bigger, stronger breeds in which some examples may have been bred for aggression, she said.

Her shelter, she said, takes such precautions as having dogs play in a yard with others to see their behavior. Other family dogs get to meet the newcomer on shelter property to check compatibility.

It's similar to what many insurance companies do today: send an agent to the home of a policyholder to verify that a dog on the policy is well-behaved and manageable — with certain breeds including pit bulls and German shepherds being on a watch list. Failure to disclose dog ownership can be real trouble for a homeowner because claims will be denied, said Mr. Maciel.

In New Bedford, Mr. Maciel said, the ordinance may require a succession of precautions to restrain and confine troublesome dogs, and fines for breaking the rules can be heavy, up to $600.

Bad dogs will be spayed or neutered and have a microchip implanted under the city ordinance, and annual licenses will cost more, along with the secure enclosures the city will require — and inspect.

Preventing the dogs from reproducing is the most important component, he said. "We don't want them breeding and the offspring having the temperament of the mother and the father," he said. "That way our community becomes safer."

[Popps]

That's a long article that basically says we should breed-out the bad traits in dogs.

Problem is... those traits reside predominantly in a couple of breeds of dogs. (And variations.)

It's flawed reasoning....

We shouldn't punish a breed... but we should breed out bad traits in that breed.

Huh?

Pit bulls (yes, APBTs, Amstaffs, etc.) were bred to fight till death. Hence, inherently more dangerous to other dogs and if mishandled... people.

So, we can breed out "traits" in dogs, but can't just identify the breeds WITH those traits? Uh, O.K..

Conversely, we'll continue to put potentially dangerous animals in the hands of idiots... hoping that our society will just suddenly become intelligent and responsible? Mr. Auto-shop-owner who buys Pit bulls to "guard his shop" will suddenly have a spike in IQ and sensitivity because he might get a ticket or a court appearance if his dog isn't licensed?

That's all very nice on paper. Meanwhile, you endanger the public while pushing cute catch phrases and utopian philosophies.

Again... Pit bulls do no more good for society than any other dog, and in fact... much less good. There's no argument to be made that we're a better society for their existence, and there's no cruelty in simply not breeding certain breeds.

[Popps]

The attack of the day. All the usual ingredients...

Major injuries:
"Her lip was torn on both sides, and it was just hanging."

A supposedly nice dog and the surprised owner
"She was talking to the (pit bull). She knew its name and everything"

"He was a good dog. I can't understand how this happened," Stevens said.

... but the police weren't buying it:
But according to police, the pit bull had recently bitten a child. Information on that child's injuries wasn't available.

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/13688063/detail.html



This story illustrates how both sides are right, to an extent. A $100 fine for this?!? What the ****. How would you feel if this was your wife or mother or kid? $100 for having for lip ripped off your face?

It also illustrates what kind of idiot is going to continue to own Pit bulls. Here's a strong-breed, aggressive dog who's bitten a child and the owner says he was a "good dog" and didn't know how this could happen.

[Beantown Bronco]

You're making it out to seem as if proper pit bull owners are the minority, and the idiots who abuse them are the norm. I'd say that it's the other way around - the minority are those who don't take care of their animals, and happen to also draw all the negative publicity due to their dog attacking someone.

Judging by the pure numbers of pit bulls and pit bull mixes in shelters throughout the country, I'd say good owners are clearly in the minority.

[vancejohnson82]

Beantown,

You just dont READ about good owners....i would guess, with no informational backing here so don't hang me for it, that 40% of the dogs at local shelters have some pit/amstaff/bull breed in their mix.....now do 40% of those dogs end up attacking someone???? No, because responsible owners take care of their dogs, realize the responsibility that comes with it and you never hear about it....then one jerk goes in there and says "give me the biggest one you got", takes the dog and gives it a tire to chew on in the backyard, and you read about it getting loose and attacking a kid or something....then the25 people who walked out wiht pit mixes earlier in the day are forgotten because of this one a$$hole

the problem, as stated above in that article, is that there is NO WAY to determine what constitutes a pitbull....people love to mark them as pitbulls when they attack, but refuse to acknowledge them when they don't cause any trouble

the only thing I can try and relate this to is owning a gun....responsible owners are clearly overshadowed by backyard fools who end up shooting someone (on purpose or accident)....you never read a story in the paper about a guy who locks his gun away and never needed to take it out...why? because people don't want to read about htat

just like people don't want to read about GOOD pitbulls.....its not sexy, and we know reporters want the sexiest story

[vancejohnson82]

Temperment Test Statistics (Percent passed)

Tested Passed Failed

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER</TD><TD align=right> 542</TD><TD align=right> 456</TD><TD align=right> 86</TD><TD align=right> 84.1%</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>BOXER</TD><TD align=right> 368</TD><TD align=right> 311</TD><TD align=right> 57</TD><TD align=right> 84.5%</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>SHETLAND SHEEPDOG</TD><TD align=right> 471</TD><TD align=right> 317</TD><TD align=right> 154</TD><TD align=right> 67.3%</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>RHODESIAN RIDGEBACK</TD><TD align=right> 271</TD><TD align=right>217
</TD><TD align=right> 54</TD><TD align=right> 80.1%</TD></TR><TR><TD>ROTTWEILER</TD><TD align=right> 4744</TD><TD align=right>3,923</TD><TD align=right>821</TD><TD align=right>82.7%</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>AKITA </TD><TD align=right>447</TD><TD align=right> 329</TD><TD align=right> 118</TD><TD align=right> 73.6%</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

http://www.atts.org/index.html


Pretty much as natural of a test of aggression/tendencies as you can find...

[Beantown Bronco]

Beantown,

You just dont READ about good owners....i would guess, with no informational backing here so don't hang me for it, that 40% of the dogs at local shelters have some pit/amstaff/bull breed in their mix.....now do 40% of those dogs end up attacking someone???? No, because responsible owners take care of their dogs, realize the responsibility that comes with it and you never hear about it....then one jerk goes in there and says "give me the biggest one you got", takes the dog and gives it a tire to chew on in the backyard, and you read about it getting loose and attacking a kid or something....then the25 people who walked out wiht pit mixes earlier in the day are forgotten because of this one a$$hole

the problem, as stated above in that article, is that there is NO WAY to determine what constitutes a pitbull....people love to mark them as pitbulls when they attack, but refuse to acknowledge them when they don't cause any trouble

the only thing I can try and relate this to is owning a gun....responsible owners are clearly overshadowed by backyard fools who end up shooting someone (on purpose or accident)....you never read a story in the paper about a guy who locks his gun away and never needed to take it out...why? because people don't want to read about htat

just like people don't want to read about GOOD pitbulls.....its not sexy, and we know reporters want the sexiest story

Vance, you're missing my point.

My point has nothing to do with the percentage of dangerous dogs. It only deals with the percentage of bad owners. It is my opinion that the heavy majority of people that surrender dogs to a local shelter are bad owners. (Good owners just don't tend to give up dogs. They find a way to make it work. Granted there are some exceptions, like senior citizens that die and have no heirs that can take the dog, but let's face it - how many senior citizens own pit bulls? I'm guessing not many) Therefore, if the plurality of dogs in shelters (which you acknowledge) are pit bulls or pit bull mixes; then one can conclude that most of their prior owners were bad owners.

[vancejohnson82]

I think that problem really arises from the backyard breeding we see with pitbulls, and why in/or near most major cities this is a real big problem....basically, what these people do is take a pitbull, breed it with another dog (most of the time they can't find another pit) and "find out" what the result is....most of the time the dog isn't big enough or didn't come out pretty enough for the breeder to sell to his hoodrat friends who want to "fight" their dogs or walk them down the street with DMX songs pumping through their IPOD....so they let them out of the house and Animal Control picks them up, and depending on what city you are in they destroy them

that's how i got my two pits, i am sure....one is a lab/pit mix and he definitely was the runt of his litter...he weighed about 35 pounds when i got him and had been wandering the streets near this woman's house for about 2 weeks....i was talking to her and she informed me about the dog and i went and basically trapped him adn he is now one of the best dogs i have ever met

the other one i have was bred with a much smaller dog (maybe some sort of hound)....she has marks all over her body (burn marks, weird bone spurs, and scars) which lead me to believe someone bred her, realized she wasn't getting any bigger than 40 pounds and discarded her...she was found in Newark, NJ and its taken me almost 6 months to get her used to human contact

now, the only reason i tell you these stories is because these are two dogs who were at points in their lives where they could have gone in two directions.....1) they keep heading down the road they were on and end up biting someone, or being aggressive 2) someone with some sense teaches them discipline and affection and they end up fine

why woudl any reporter want to write about feel good stories like that, when although there are probably 10 every day that get picked up, one of those will bite and that will get the press

the reason there are so many pits in the shelter is because its the chic thing to breed them, but when they can't sell them they let them roam the streets

[kamakazi_kal]

Beantown,

You just dont READ about good owners....i would guess, with no informational backing here so don't hang me for it, that 40% of the dogs at local shelters have some pit/amstaff/bull breed in their mix.....now do 40% of those dogs end up attacking someone???? No, because responsible owners take care of their dogs, realize the responsibility that comes with it and you never hear about it....then one jerk goes in there and says "give me the biggest one you got", takes the dog and gives it a tire to chew on in the backyard, and you read about it getting loose and attacking a kid or something....then the25 people who walked out wiht pit mixes earlier in the day are forgotten because of this one a$$hole

the problem, as stated above in that article, is that there is NO WAY to determine what constitutes a pitbull....people love to mark them as pitbulls when they attack, but refuse to acknowledge them when they don't cause any trouble

the only thing I can try and relate this to is owning a gun....responsible owners are clearly overshadowed by backyard fools who end up shooting someone (on purpose or accident)....you never read a story in the paper about a guy who locks his gun away and never needed to take it out...why? because people don't want to read about htat

just like people don't want to read about GOOD pitbulls.....its not sexy, and we know reporters want the sexiest story

rep...............been trying to make this argument for pages.....

[orange 4 life]

This story illustrates how both sides are right, to an extent. A $100 fine for this?!? What the ****. How would you feel if this was your wife or mother or kid? $100 for having for lip ripped off your face?

It also illustrates what kind of idiot is going to continue to own Pit bulls. Here's a strong-breed, aggressive dog who's bitten a child and the owner says he was a "good dog" and didn't know how this could happen.

details of the story arent really my focal point, but think about this popps. many of these stories youre posting lately have the guy or gal saying "i just dont know how this couldve happened."

here again, guy says "i just dont know how this couldve happened," but its A DAMN LIE!!!
that dog had already bit someone else, so why in the hell is it a stretch to think it would happen again? see my point?
bad owner SAYS that its a nice family dog with no history TO SAVE HIS A$$!!
you think theyre gonna say "yeah, my dog is really aggressive and i ignore him all day. it was only a matter of time before this happened."
yeah right.

so now this guy gets a whopping 100.00 fine. wow!!
that'll deter him.....or maybe not.

but what if he got a 10 THOUSAND dollar fine?
im betting bad owner (regardless of breed, because while you find more stories that claim to be pits, you also find plenty that are other breeds, including the boxer, which i think is probably the second best breed out there) decides its not worth the risk and hires a security company or buys an alarm system.

dont go after the breed, go after the owner.

[kamakazi_kal]

dont go after the breed, go after the owner.

I would keep my dog knowing that I could get a 10,000 dollar fine.

then again I dont neglect him so I'm not worried.

[kamakazi_kal]

i have got to learn to post pics

[orange 4 life]

I would keep my dog knowing that I could get a 10,000 dollar fine.

then again I dont neglect him so I'm not worried.

precisely my point kal.
i too wouldnt worry as my two pits (one ridgeback mix and one purebred APBT) are the sweetest dogs ive ever seen, and ive been around TONS of dogs through our work with various shelters. heck, ive had DOZENS of dogs LIVE with us for varying amounts of time due to our time fostering dogs.

my point is that i know my dogs dont have some magic "trigger" that could cause them to go from loving family pet to "marauding killer" in the blink of an eye.

that said, i bet MOST of the "tough guy" owners would be scared sh!tless.
10k and possible jail time? yeah, i doubt theyll chain up and ignore that dog knowing thats the consequence.
when they can say "golly gee heck, i just dont know how this couldve happened" and get fined 100 bucks im guessing theyre not too worried.....

.....and we're still talking about banning breeds. :kiddingme

[orange 4 life]

i have got to learn to post pics

me too.

popps has seen pics of my dogs (though not since my youngest was just a pup. holiday season '05. time sure flies) but he's the only one.

[kamakazi_kal]

maybe this whole mike vick thing will bring some national attention to the mistreatment/misbreeding/abuse this breed goes through, i hope he gets the 6 years they say he could

[Bladerunner]

Here's a recock on this MFer.

Huskies maul 11month old to death.

http://www.wsmv.com/news/13746954/detail.html

[Popps]

Wouldn't trust Huskies around my kid, either.

[vancejohnson82]

haha, we should ban huskies

GREAT article from CNN.com


RALEIGH, North Carolina (AP) -- The image of the American pit bull terrier was once the smiling dog living in a shoe with Buster Brown, or the lovable pooch with the circle around one eye that used its powerful jaws to pull members of the "Little Rascals" from danger.
<!--startclickprintexclude--><!-- REAP --><!-- PURGE: /2007/LIVING/wayoflife/07/24/pitbull.culture.ap/art.pit.owner.ap.jpg --><!-- KEEP -->http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/2007/LIVING/wayoflife/07/24/pitbull.culture.ap/art.pit.owner.ap.jpg





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"It's important to understand that this isn't about race, but it is about culture," said Cindy Cooke of the United Kennel Club. "One is rural, and the other is urban. But both are equally horrible."
The colors they have in common, says Cooke, an attorney and legislative specialist for the Michigan-based group that first officially recognized the breed nearly 110 years ago, are the red of blood and green of money.
The blood sport has operated underground for years, but many agree the hip hop use of pit bull images moved it out of the shadows -- and the Vick (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/michael_vick) case placed it at center stage.
The star quarterback for the Atlanta Falcons, who is black, is scheduled to be arraigned Thursday in U.S. District court in Richmond, Virginia, on charges of sponsoring, along with three others, a brutal dogfighting ring on property he owns in Smithfield, site of their Bad Newz Kennels.
The document outlines a cruel operation in which dogs with names like Maniac and Big Boy are forced to do battle in carpeted pits for purses as high as $26,000. The men allegedly "rolled" young dogs in test bouts, and those animals lacking the desired killer instinct were "executed" -- shot, drowned, electrocuted, hanged or, in one case, bodyslammed to the ground.
<!--startclickprintexclude-->


<!--endclickprintexclude-->It describes a world of "break sticks" used to separate fighting dogs and "rape stands" meant to make aggressive females easier to breed.
"People have this image of them as some kind of uberdog," Cooke says. "More powerful, more fierce, more terrifying."
This could not be further from the description put forth by the United Kennel Club. "The essential characteristics of the American Pit Bull Terrier are strength, confidence, and zest for life," the group's Web site declares. "This breed is eager to please and brimming over with enthusiasm. APBTs make excellent family companions and have always been noted for their love of children."
The American pit bull was developed in the late 19th century by British breeders crossing bulldogs with terriers. They were "looking for a dog that combined the gameness of the terrier with the strength and athleticism of the Bulldog," the kennel club says.
But to a dogfighter, "gameness" is code for a dog's ability to keep struggling, even as its body goes into shock from blood loss.
The breed's image remained largely positive until the late 1970s, when some widely publicized attacks on children started to turn the public's perception, says Karen Delise, a veterinary technician who has studied fatal dog attacks for 15 years and is the author of the book "The Pit Bull Placebo: The Media, Myths and Politics of Canine Aggression."
Every generation has had its guard dogs -- the German shepherd, the Rottweiler and others over the years, she says. She blames the music industry -- in concert with the media and the Internet -- for making the pit bull the devil dog du jour.
"It's all tied into the hip hop culture, the image and projection of a dog as an extension of your manhood," she says. "The pit bull is the ultimate accessory."
It's not just white people like Delise saying that.
"Hip-hop culture put Vick in this bind," declared the headline on a recent column in The Kansas City Star. Staff columnist Jason Whitlock, who is black, said he hoped Vick's troubles would "serve as yet another wakeup call for black athletes to reject the hip-hop/prison culture that glorifies much of the negative behavior and attitude that has eroded the once-dignified and positive reputation of black athletes."
Gerald Early, a professor of English and African-American studies at Washington University in St. Louis, thinks there is some truth to the argument that rap and hip hop music have helped make the pit bull the "tough dog of the day."
Early, who is black and has written extensively on athletics in black culture, says football is a macho sport dominated by black men, many of them raised on rap and "fired up by the sort of romantic image of being a gangster." Some arrests of players has brought an NFL crackdown effort.
"Vick, of course, becomes a perfect storm," Early says. "Because just as they're trying to deal with this image problem, this whole thing comes up."
The Humane Society of the United States points to CDs such as DMX's "Grand Champ" -- code in the dogfighting world for an animal that's won five straight contests -- or to the video for Jay-Z's "99 Problems," which features a pit bull lunging at the camera.
But rap impresario Russell Simmons, founder of Def Jam Records and manager of such acts as Run-D.M.C., Public Enemy and the Beastie Boys, says those images are just reflections of what is happening on our streets.
"That's the reality," he told the AP in a telephone interview. "That's why we have poets, have always had poets and artists in society, to say things that sometimes people don't say otherwise."
Simmons co-signed a letter last week with the Rev. Al Sharpton and others denouncing "these hideous crimes" and calling on the sporting world to join the fight.
Simmons says the Vick case "is a blessing in the fact that he's brought this to light, that this is happening in our society." The question now is "how we handle it now that it's on the front page."
Caught in the middle of this whole thing is the breed itself.
Cooke says research has disproved common myths about the pit bull, such as the one about its bite force being greater than that of other breeds. "It can't really be the T-rex in a dog suit that it's portrayed as in the media," she says, noting it's Americans' 30th most popular breed, ahead of even Dalmatians and collies.
But the breed's image problem is not helped when Web sites such as www.gamedogs.org carry links to kennels with names like Hellz Comin' and Death Before Dishonor. Many breeders take great pains to distance themselves from the blood sport.
"No pup will be sold for illegal or cruel purposes," declares the Web site of Pitfall Kennels, the Atlanta breeding operation started by Antwan "Big Boi" Patton, a founding member of the hip hop group OutKast. His site boasts tennis star Serena Williams, and musicians 50 Cent and Usher among Pitfall's clients.
Authorities say North Carolina has become something of a center for pit bull breeding and fighting. According to the indictment, several of Vick's dogs came from North Carolina.
Tom Garner, who lives outside of Raleigh, is a leading breeder. A 1985 dogfighting conviction, he says, was the result of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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<!--endclickprintexclude-->In an e-mail response to the AP, Garner said he would not knowingly sell to someone who wanted to fight one of these "magic animals." But dogs are out of his control once they leave his yard.
"I am aware that some dogs from my bloodline are fought," he wrote. "This is analogous to criminals using Toyotas for getaway cars because of their reliability. Certainly Toyota doesn't set out to build getaway cars, but nevertheless the criminal will often find a way to get the item that serves their

[kamakazi_kal]

rep vance............but you understand positive press gets no love. ^5

[orange 4 life]

great article vance, and karen delise has done EXTENSIVE research on dog bites and more specifically fatal dogbites.

like me, she didnt set out to prove or disprove anything about the APBT.
it just worked out that way, and of course her findings go right in line with the kennel clubs description of the breed.

[Popps]

Pretty irrelevant article. Follows the usual lines (lack) of reasoning.

-Play up the goofy myths about locking jaws and super-powers that anyone with a brain knows isn't true.

-Play up how it's all humans' fault... the media, or whomever.

-Completely ignore the factual reality that despite how great these dogs were 40 years ago... over-breeding and a number of other factors has made them a societal nuisance.

-Completely ignore that we're talking about ONE dog breed... something with almost no measurable benefit to society.

In other words, the article is steeped in the sort of utopian doo-doo we usually see in defense of the breed's actions.

[Popps]

haha, we should ban huskies



Yea, pretty funny that a child got killed, huh? Keep getting your laughs there, sport.

[mosca]

-Completely ignore that we're talking about ONE dog breed... something with almost no measurable benefit to society.
The benefit they provide to society is that of companionship, same as all other dog breeds.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

The benefit they provide to society is that of companionship, same as all other dog breeds.Their detriment to society is violent and vicious attacks on animals and humans alike, unlike any other breed.

[orange 4 life]

Temperment Test Statistics (Percent passed)

Tested Passed Failed

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER</TD><TD align=right> 542</TD><TD align=right> 456</TD><TD align=right> 86</TD><TD align=right> 84.1%</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>BOXER</TD><TD align=right> 368</TD><TD align=right> 311</TD><TD align=right> 57</TD><TD align=right> 84.5%</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>SHETLAND SHEEPDOG</TD><TD align=right> 471</TD><TD align=right> 317</TD><TD align=right> 154</TD><TD align=right> 67.3%</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>RHODESIAN RIDGEBACK</TD><TD align=right> 271</TD><TD align=right>217
</TD><TD align=right> 54</TD><TD align=right> 80.1%</TD></TR><TR><TD>ROTTWEILER</TD><TD align=right> 4744</TD><TD align=right>3,923</TD><TD align=right>821</TD><TD align=right>82.7%</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>AKITA </TD><TD align=right>447</TD><TD align=right> 329</TD><TD align=right> 118</TD><TD align=right> 73.6%</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

http://www.atts.org/index.html


Pretty much as natural of a test of aggression/tendencies as you can find...

read karen delise's books.
good stuff. :thumbsup:

[orange 4 life]

there's just nothing left to say.
its all been said already.

[Popps]

The benefit they provide to society is that of companionship, same as all other dog breeds.

Wrong.

They're not like other dog breeds, period. If you KNOW anything about the breed, you'd never make that statement.

They're absolutely, clearly NOT like other dog breeds. They come with an inherent ability to do damage and fight to the death ("gameness").... traits that when handled improperly, result in major, major problems.

I'd personally guess that somewhere around 95% of dog owners don't have what it takes to own one of these dogs, and that makes it a no-brainer. Our society simply isn't responsible enough.

They're not "just like" other dog breeds. Again, any knowledge on the subject and you wouldn't make that statement, no matter which side you fall.

[Popps]

read karen delise's books.
good stuff. :thumbsup:

Reppin' a guy who laughs at a kid getting mauled to death?

Interesting choice there, Jake.

[mosca]

Their detriment to society is violent and vicious attacks on animals and humans alike, unlike any other breed.
Not true - not sure why you and some others keep repeating this myth.

[mosca]

Wrong.

They're not like other dog breeds, period. If you KNOW anything about the breed, you'd never make that statement.

They're absolutely, clearly NOT like other dog breeds. They come with an inherent ability to do damage and fight to the death ("gameness").... traits that when handled improperly, result in major, major problems.

I'd personally guess that somewhere around 95% of dog owners don't have what it takes to own one of these dogs, and that makes it a no-brainer. Our society simply isn't responsible enough.

They're not "just like" other dog breeds. Again, any knowledge on the subject and you wouldn't make that statement, no matter which side you fall.
Yes, they are "like" many other dogs, in the simple fact that they can be excellent companions to humans. This is all I was alluding to, contradicting your unbelievable statement that pit bulls provide no measurable benefit to society. I've been around enough pit bulls, owned by friends and family, to know and see this benefit firsthand.

[Broncos_OTM]

Rhodesians are cool dogs. i have a full bred. really great ole girl

I also have a Pit/Boxer mix. We rescued her from a dumpster when she was barely old enough to keep her eyes open. the pallet laying on top of her really affected the way the cartlidge in her ears came out. she is a beutiful markings and unfortunetly it happened to her it has made her more endearing to us.

[Broncos_OTM]

that is a pic from christmas last year.

[mosca]

That's a cool pic of them both. Good lookin' dogs.

[maher_tyler]

Wow this thread has last for a long time...dogs are awsome though, when i get back home i want to get a golden retriver..anyone else own one??

[Broncos_OTM]

That's a cool pic of them both. Good lookin' dogs.

Oh wait. since its a pitbull shouldnt it be eating the chiuaua?

Oh and thanks i wouldnt trade either one of them for nothing. the chiuaua is a ex of mine dog when she left she was gonna give him up. i said hell no i love me some dogs. i have four of them currently

[cutthemdown]

pattons dog and the lil rascals doggie.

[Popps]

your unbelievable statement that pit bulls provide no measurable benefit to society.

They're one of thousands of dog breeds. They're just a breed. They're just dogs.

There's no societal NEED they fulfill that 1000 other breeds can't fill just as well. The difference is, they come with a risk that far outweighs your average breed.

Again, I actually really enjoy the breed.

I also understand the breed. Hence, I understand the logical conclusion that our current society isn't responsible enough to handle them.

I've yet to see a single argument that directly addresses that concept. Instead, I just see nonsense posts defending Pit bulls from imaginary concepts like locking jaws... that no one around here is pushing.

[orange 4 life]

Reppin' a guy who laughs at a kid getting mauled to death?

Interesting choice there, Jake.

I didnt "rep" anything popps, i dont think thats funny at all, i didnt COMMENT on that post (cause i wasnt sure how to respond), so im not sure what youre talking about.

i just said "read karen delise. interesting stuff".

it IS interesting stuff, and since the clifton study keeps getting referenced, the extensive work of karen delise goes BEYOND the surface stats and shows the hows and whys of each case individually. the collective study explains alot.

[orange 4 life]

Reppin' a guy who laughs at a kid getting mauled to death?

Interesting choice there, Jake.

now i see that i DID say "great article", but i think it IS a great article.
nothing FUNNY about it, but very interesting.

[orange 4 life]

pattons dog and the lil rascals doggie.

add helen kellers dog, the WWI mascot dog, spuds mckenzie, the dog that saved the little girl from the fire here a couple months back, and the dog that helped save EIGHTEEN people in the wake of hurricane katrina.

[orange 4 life]

...and finally popps, i think you should be fair to vance here.

OF COURSE its not funny when someone gets hurt, and i dont think you really believe vance thinks it is.
i agree the "haha" portion of the post was out of order (i didnt even notice it initially), but im quite sure his intent was sarcasm as opposed to humor.
lets give him the benefit of the doubt.

ps- also, i AGREE that many people in society arent capable of having an APBT (or amstaff, staffy, bull terrier, etc.) in their family, but i ALSO think those SAME people arent capable of having a ridgeback, mastiff, akita, shepherd, doberman, rotty, or boxer......and pretty much any other medium to large breed.

i do NOT think the APBT is any different from those other breeds listed above. you just read about more attacks because you have more of that breed neglected and/or abused.
again, there's a reason the APBT was once a celebrated breed in this country and was not in any way considered a threat to society.

[Popps]

...and finally popps, i think you should be fair to vance here.i agree the "haha" portion of the post was out of order (i didnt even notice it initially), but im quite sure his intent was sarcasm as opposed to humor.

Yea, I guess throwing around "ha ha's" is something I'd do a little more carefully when talking about a kid getting mauled to death. Sounded to me like he was giddy that his (entirely wrong) stance was substantiated. (Even though it wasn't.)

i do NOT think the APBT is any different from those other breeds listed above. you just read about more attacks because you have more of that breed neglected and/or abused.

Yea... you're just wrong, Jake. That's all I can say. You can believe what you want. This isn't a conspiracy.

Let's scan the news... yep, last 24 hours.... yet another FAMILY Pit bull attacks its own owners.

Think what you want, Jake. Other dog breeds aren't doing this, and the ones that occasionally are... can't even compare to what PBs are doing.

This story has all the usual stuff. Family dog.... never a problem until it chewed the kid's face up. "We thought it was so sweet".... etc....

And lets not play make-believe about "mistaken identity" or any other reaches to discredit the reality of the situation. This was (another) FAMILY dog... IDENTIFIED by it's owners as a Pit bull.

http://www.gainesville.com/article/20070728/LOCAL/707280336/-1/news

A 19-year-old Interlachen woman received 900 stitches during surgery after her family's pit bull lashed out and bit her on the face Thursday evening.

Amanda Boyles, 19, was at home Thursday night playing with the 2-year-old white pit bull named Boss Hog when the dog suddenly lunged at her face, according to the Putnam County Sheriff's Office.

According to the incident report from the Sheriff's Office, Amanda's father, Felton Boyles, told deputies that Amanda was lying on the living room floor playing with the dog with a dog toy when he heard his wife say, "Oh, no." He turned to find the dog's jaws around Amanda's face, the report stated.

Deputies reported that Felton Boyles jumped up and pried the dog off of Amanda as the dog was shaking Amanda's head back and forth in its grip.

Amanda was transported to Shands at the University of Florida by ambulance, and she was released Friday morning after undergoing surgery to repair a damaged artery and lacerations on her face.

"She's got 900 stitches," Felton Boyles said when reached by phone Friday afternoon.

Boyles declined to comment further, except to say the dog did not make any aggressive noises when he attacked Amanda and that the dog had not been aggressive in the past.

Putnam Sheriff's Capt. Steve Rose said he was told Amanda needed as many as three layers of stitches in places where the lacerations were deep. According to the incident report, Felton Boyles said Amanda had injuries to both sides of her face near her mouth and chin.

Rose said the Sheriff's Office is not required to euthanize a dog that attacks a person, but he said the family indicated it wanted the dog taken away, so it was euthanized Friday.

"Our only requirement is that the dog be quarantined for 10 days," Rose said. "Based on the family's wishes not to have the dog at all, we euthanized it."

The dog was also sent to the Health Department to be tested for possible rabies, Rose reported.

Rose said his department does not get dog mauling reports very often, and he said it simply illustrates the unpredictability of owning pets like pit bulls.

"This father said he's had pit bulls for years and has never had a problem until now," Rose said. "Pit bulls are notorious for sometimes being unpredictable, even as pets. And that's what we tell people when they are considering getting a pit bull."

[mosca]

It's just as easy to scan recent news stories to find dog attacks not by pit bulls. This was the first dog attack story, regardless of breed, that I found on Google news - coincidentally it's a boxer (honestly, i'm not trying to pick on boxers).

http://new.wset.com/news/stories/0707/443155.html

Area Couple Sent to Hospital after Dog Attack
Saturday July 28, 2007 6:05pm

Bedford County, VA - An area couple is recovering after being injured in a dog attack in their Bedford County neighborhood. They say they were out for a walk in their neighborhood off Wiggington Road last Sunday when two dogs attacked them. They tried to fight the two boxers off, but couldn't escape without bites and other injuries. Now neighbors are raising questions about what can be done to keep them safe.

Jefferson Johnson, Attacked by Dogs - "Obviously it was quite a frightening experience for both of us."

Jefferson Johnson is now on crutches, recovering from a dog bite and ankle ligaments he pulled while struggling to get away.

Johnson - "The only thing we could do is kick and scream and yell... and was able to kick and push and do what you have to."

He was bitten once, his wife twice. They eventually they made it to a neighbor’s house and called for help.

Johnson - "You should not have go for a walk through your neighborhood, try to enjoy yourself and worry about getting bitten by a dog."

And he's not the only one who's had a bad experience.

Jason Kennedy, Neighbor - "I am not too worried about myself as much as I am my little girl."

Jason Kennedy says he's had problems with another dog. And like Johnson, says a leash law would be a good idea.

Johnson - "And its things like this that really proves that there needs to be one."

Now Johnson says he'll be hesitant when he heads out the door.

Johnson - "...it is something we are going to be very leery of doing."

Bedford County sheriff's office officials did not want to give out the dog owner's name but say the owner will probably face charges in this case. The two dogs are under quarantine.

[Popps]

It's just as easy to scan recent news stories to find dog attacks not by pit bulls.

Yea, that's just a flat-out lie.

I just googled "dog attack"... and ALL BUT ONE of the stories of attacks on page 1 involved Pit bulls.

So, you cherry-picked the one story of a dog attack that didn't involve a Pit bull, and twisted the information. Par for course for PB apologists.

Even funnier, I thought the whole thing was... Pit bulls were just victims of the media picking on them? Now you're telling us that there are "just as many" stories about other breeds attacking?

Which is it?


You guys need to put your heads together and figure out which bull**** story you want to run with, and then get back to us.

[Broncos_OTM]

I dont know if this is gonna be countrry wide or not i partially heard on the radio that they are gonna require pet owners to leave a dog on a chain for more then one hour a day. i dont think it will really go after alot of people for this but i think it will be more of a law to get into where you have twenty or fifty pits on a leash. anyone else hear of this?

[Broncos_OTM]

Yea, that's just a flat-out lie.

I just googled "dog attack"... and ALL BUT ONE of the stories of attacks on page 1 involved Pit bulls.

So, you cherry-picked the one story of a dog attack that didn't involve a Pit bull, and twisted the information. Par for course for PB apologists.

Even funnier, I thought the whole thing was... Pit bulls were just victims of the media picking on them? Now you're telling us that there are "just as many" stories about other breeds attacking?

Which is it?


You guys need to put your heads together and figure out which bull**** story you want to run with, and then get back to us.
The reason you hear about pitbull maulings and rots is because they are news ready shot my sister in law just got bit by some mut up the road. i ran to the house to see if i could see a story on it but to no avail. see my point?

[RunByDesign]

The reason you hear about pitbull maulings and rots is because they are news ready shot my sister in law just got bit by some mut up the road. i ran to the house to see if i could see a story on it but to no avail. see my point?

No, the reason you hear stories like this is because:

1 - The incidents are more severe byway of the physical and temperament characteristics of the 2 animals.

2 - Rotweillers, specifically, have been bred throughout the centuries to bite humans.

3 - The selective genepool that had been in place for the past 200 years has been diluted down, irreperably, some would say and at the very least, irresponsibly, I might add, in that bulldogs are no longer the reliable breed as the AKC describes them. While in a technical aspect, all of these animals are technically not "APBT", it is a moot point, for even in some of these purebreds it is readily apparent that the disposition of the animals is in question, with some of the aforementioned characteristics emphasized: tenacity, gamesness, agressivness and the most ridiculous, looks; (see the hundreds of bite and mauling articles and cultural and societal references.)

While you all are arguing over semantics, the larger and more relevant point of the topic is lost: for every champion weight puller, with several trophies and ribbons to it's pedigree, along with a fine temperament and disposition and bloodline in tact, there are literally thousands of illegitimate and gene-pool gone awry cases across the land, exemplified by these horrific cases.

The breed has been comprimised. There is real work ahead to re-establish it once fine roots.

[Popps]

No, the reason you hear stories like this is because:

1 - The incidents are more severe byway of the physical and temperament characteristics of the 2 animals.

2 - Rotweillers, specifically, have been bred throughout the centuries to bite humans.

3 - The selective genepool that had been in place for the past 200 years has been diluted down, irreperably, some would say and at the very least, irresponsibly, I might add, in that bulldogs are no longer the reliable breed as the AKC describes them. While in a technical aspect, all of these animals are technically not "APBT", it is a moot point, for even in some of these purebreds it is readily apparent that the disposition of the animals is in question, with some of the aforementioned characteristics emphasized: tenacity, gamesness, agressivness and the most ridiculous, looks; (see the hundreds of bite and mauling articles and cultural and societal references.)

While you all are arguing over semantics, the larger and more relevant point of the topic is lost: for every champion weight puller, with several trophies and ribbons to it's pedigree, along with a fine temperament and disposition and bloodline in tact, there are literally thousands of illegitimate and gene-pool gone awry cases across the land, exemplified by these horrific cases.

The breed has been comprimised. There is real work ahead to re-establish it once fine roots.



That's a quality post.

Accurate, in my opinion. Though, I wonder at some point how possible it is to "restore" a breed.

I absolutely agree that these can be wonderful dogs. Again, see my dog photos here on the dog thread. My dog plays with several APBTs and it's always been great.

But, that doesn't account for the problems, like you said.

At some point, you just have to ask yourself... society probably has HUNDREDS of various dog breeds and thousands of mixes... at what point do we just go ahead and discontinue a couple of them? How many family pit bulls have to chew the faces off their children before people stop playing games with this stuff?

Again, to me... if you're a dog lover, you have NO problem with NOT breeding a dog with issues, particularly dangerous issues. White Boxers are NOT recognized and should not be bred. (As pretty as they are.) They're prone to cancer, deafness and other things. It's HUMANE not to breed them.

It would also be HUMANE not to breed dogs who's gene pool has been ****ed up so badly that they're attacking their own families.

[mosca]

Yea, that's just a flat-out lie.

I just googled "dog attack"... and ALL BUT ONE of the stories of attacks on page 1 involved Pit bulls.

So, you cherry-picked the one story of a dog attack that didn't involve a Pit bull, and twisted the information. Par for course for PB apologists.
Why is it a lie? Sorry if you don't believe me, but I did a google news search for "dog attack" and the boxer story was literally the first story on the results that came up. I don't see that as cherry-picking or twisting of information.
Even funnier, I thought the whole thing was... Pit bulls were just victims of the media picking on them? Now you're telling us that there are "just as many" stories about other breeds attacking?
I stated that it was "just as easy" to find news stories about other breeds. I don't know where you get the "just as many" quote that you used. The point is that there are stories out there on other dogs, it is easy to -find- those stories, however, the mass media focuses more on the pit bull stories because it fits their trend of sensationalism.

[mosca]

It would also be HUMANE not to breed dogs who's gene pool has been ****ed up so badly that they're attacking their own families.
This is fine, on a case-by-case individual basis. Dogs with a history of aggression, sure. Pit bulls (or other dogs who share a breed with known vicious attackers) who neither display aggressive behavior or have genetics predisposed to aggressive behavior are not a threat.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I stated that it was "just as easy" to find news stories about other breeds. I don't know where you get the "just as many" quote that you used. The point is that there are stories out there on other dogs, it is easy to -find- those stories, however, the mass media focuses more on the pit bull stories because it fits their trend of sensationalism.Absolutely false. They focus on them because of the number of attacks and the sheer brutality of the attacks (deaths and maiming Pit Bulls inflict on other animals and humans alike).

[mosca]

Absolutely false. They focus on them because of the number of attacks and the sheer brutality of the attacks (deaths and maiming Pit Bulls inflict on other animals and humans alike).
False? So sez you.

When a pit bull attacks, it makes CNN's ticker or the evening news, or if in the paper, the headline makes sure to include the words "pit bull" in the headline. But when another breed attacks, inflicting similar damage, all it gets is one paragraph towards the back of the local newspaper, usually not even mentioning the dog's breed in the headline. That's the trend.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

False? So sez you.

When a pit bull attacks, it makes CNN's ticker or the evening news, or if in the paper, the headline makes sure to include the words "pit bull" in the headline. But when another breed attacks, inflicting similar damage, all it gets is one paragraph towards the back of the local newspaper, usually not even mentioning the dog's breed in the headline. That's the trend.Says the stats. No other breed holds a candle to Pit Bulls when it comes to the number of kills and severe maimings this breed inflicts on society.

[mosca]

Here's a great headline for an article - let's focus on the pit bull! Those other details like the arrest of two knife-wielding armed robbery suspects and confiscation of cocaine, rifles, drug paraphernelia... nah, they're not as important. Put them towards the end of the article.

PETALUMA: OFFICER KILLS PIT BULL DURING GANG-RELATED ARREST
06/02/07 3:35 PDT

PETALUMA (BCN)

Officers shot and killed a pit bull Thursday while serving search warrants for two alleged gang members in Petaluma, police said.

Police served warrants at two Petaluma homes, located in the 200 block of Walnut Street and the 100 block of East Court, at around 6 p.m. Friday for 27-year-old Crispin Valencia and 20-year-old Juan Torres, police reported.

Investigators were led to the homes following an investigation into an attempted armed robbery Thursday in which the suspects reportedly yelled gang slogans while brandishing knives, according to a police report.

During a search of the East Court home, an officer and a police dog were attacked by a pit bull weighing around 125 pounds. After an initial attempt to subdue the dog with pepper spray, officers shot and killed the dog, police said.

A search of the East Court home revealed gang paraphernalia, two rifles, cocaine and a rooster bred to fight, according to police.

Valencia and Torres were both booked into Sonoma County jail and are facing charges of attempted robbery, battery, drug possession and various gang-related charges, police reported.

http://cbs5.com/localwire/localfsnews/bcn/2007/06/02/n/HeadlineNews/PETALUMA-ARRESTS/resources_bcn_html

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Here's a great headline for an article - let's focus on the pit bull! Those other details like the arrest of two knife-wielding armed robbery suspects and confiscation of cocaine, rifles, drug paraphernelia... nah, they're not as important. Put them towards the end of the article.

An officer discharging his weapon is the story in this case.

[mosca]

Says the stats. No other breed holds a candle to Pit Bulls when it comes to the number of kills and severe maimings this breed inflicts on society.
So, because pit bulls are the leader in terms of damage inflicted on society, this justifies the media focusing more on incidents involving them, at the expense of covering the significant amount of incidents involving other breeds? Irresponsible media at its finest.

[mosca]

An officer discharging his weapon is the story in this case.
An officer shooting a dog is more newsworthy a headline than the arrest of two gang members wanted for armed robbery w/ a knife, not to mention the cocaine, rifles, or other paraphanerlia found at the scene? Ok.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

An officer shooting a dog is more newsworthy a headline than the arrest of two gang members wanted for armed robbery w/ a knife, not to mention the cocaine, rifles, or other paraphanerlia found at the scene? Ok.It's obvious to anyone that when an officer fires a his weapon that is the story.

[mosca]

It's obvious to anyone that when an officer fires a his weapon that is the story.
Only if it's a pit bull that he's firing on. Then it's definitely headline worthy!

[mosca]

Here's another misleading headline - a terrible story about one man shooting another, yet somehow the fact that a pit bull was on the scene before the shooting deems it to be worthy of mentioning in the headline. Yep, they've gotta include that buzzword "pit bull", it seems to sell newspapers:

Mother: Family Scarred By Shooting After Pit Bull Attack
Michael Haynes Jr., 41, Recovers From Shooting

POSTED: 7:39 am EDT June 28, 2007
UPDATED: 8:00 am EDT June 28, 2007

INDIANAPOLIS -- A woman who witnessed an attack that nearly took her husband's life over the weekend told 6News on Wednesday that her family is blessed.

Michael Haynes Jr., 41, was shot in the chest three times as he tried to help a dog that was attacked by a pit bull on Tecumseh Street, on Indianapolis' east side.

The investigation continues and Haynes' condition is improving, but Michael's wife, Stacy, said she can't shake what she and her children saw on Sunday, 6News' Ray Cortopassi reported.

"They (police) have nothing -- no name, no idea, no anything," Stacy Haynes said.

With no leads, all Stacy can hope for is Michael's continued recovery. The horrible images she and her children saw during the attack are ingrained in their minds.

"I'm standing there. What do I do? Five screaming kids behind me -- what do I do?" Stacy Haynes said.

Haynes saw it all from the family's porch. A neighbor's wandering dog, named Chase, got into a scuffle with a leashed pit bull.

"He locked onto Chase's throat, and my kids are screaming, 'Daddy, daddy, help Chase,' Haynes said.

Michael Haynes grabbed a rolling pin and tried to get the pit bull off the mixed-breed dog. Stacy Haynes said the dog's owner did worse than nothing, giving the dog more leash and smiling.

"They guy's standing there, snickering," Stacy Haynes said.

While Stacy was on the phone with 911, she said the man drew a gun and fired at Michael, hitting him three times.

"At most, I thought the dog was going to turn from that dog and attack my husband," Haynes said.

One of the bullets hit Michael Haynes' right lung and broke a rib. Somehow, he survived and is expected to recover.

"He's truly another miracle that God's performed," Haynes said. "All the prayers everybody has said has worked for us."

Haynes said she believes her husband's strength and heart helped save him, but it will be some time before he can go back to his job moving furniture.

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/13585447/detail.html (http://www.theindychannel.com/news/13585447/detail.html)

[Popps]

yet somehow the fact that a pit bull was on the scene before the shooting deems it to be worthy of mentioning

The only thing newsworthy in this story is that it appears the Pit bull wasn't the initial aggressor of the fight. Even that may not be true, but the thing was at least on-leash.

Other than that... nothing surprising, here. A Pit bull gets into a fight and nearly tears up another dog.... and the owner of the Pit bull was an asshole.

Business as usual.

Or, maybe it's just that media conspiracy.

[mosca]

The only thing newsworthy in this story is that it appears the Pit bull wasn't the initial aggressor of the fight. Even that may not be true, but the thing was at least on-leash.
I'd say that the fact that a man was shot and seriously wounded was newsworthy.
Other than that... nothing surprising, here. A Pit bull gets into a fight and nearly tears up another dog.... and the owner of the Pit bull was an a-hole.
The owner of the pit bull is a perfect example the wrong type of person to own a dog:

http://btoellner.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/05/11/bullycartoon_3.gif

[vancejohnson82]

when did i laugh at a child's death???

i was laughing at the ridiculousness of your "i wouldnt trust huskies around my children either", when you have a large boxer

and there is a great deal of relevance in both of those articles and statistics i posted...but lets just read what we want and go on ranting

[Popps]

when did i laugh at a child's death???

i was laughing at the ridiculousness of your "i wouldnt trust huskies around my children either", when you have a large boxer


Yea, well... "ha ha ha let's ban Huskies" after a kid was mauled to death just didn't hit me as funny as it did you, I guess.

As for the size of my dog... she's about 60 lbs. Most Pit bulls are lucky to weigh that much, yet they're among the most destructive dogs on earth.

So, the danger a dog presents doesn't correlate directly to its size. Why people talk about a "large breed dog ban" with regard to Pit bulls is beyond me. Pit bulls are medium sized dogs.

I guess it's just sort of that general stabbing in the dark the Pit bull defenders seem to throw out there, hoping no one notices that's it's illogical.

[mosca]

Yea, well... "ha ha ha let's ban Huskies" after a kid was mauled to death just didn't hit me as funny as it did you, I guess.

As for the size of my dog... she's about 60 lbs. Most Pit bulls are lucky to weigh that much, yet they're among the most destructive dogs on earth.
True, most aren't near 60 lbs., but some are larger, closer to 100 lbs. You also have to remember that many of the "larger" pit bulls are cross-breeds with other, larger dogs.

So, the danger a dog presents doesn't correlate directly to its size.
The danger a dog presents doesn't correlate directly to its breed, either.
Why people talk about a "large breed dog ban" with regard to Pit bulls is beyond me. Pit bulls are medium sized dogs.
Medium to large sized dogs of a variety of breeds are usually the ones that inflict serious bite wounds. Chows aren't bona fide "large dogs" but they also fall into the category of those that have been known to kill or maim. It's the lapdogs that I think we can all agree on having little to no history of that.

I guess it's just sort of that general stabbing in the dark the Pit bull defenders seem to throw out there, hoping no one notices that's it's illogical.
Similar to the illogical, general stabbing in the dark that proponents of breed-specific legislation like pit bull bans have thrown out there.

[mosca]

Man killed in dog attack at actor's home

By SANDY COHEN, AP Entertainment Writer Fri Aug 3, 7:30 PM ET

LOS ANGELES - Two mastiffs at the home of Ving Rhames apparently mauled a 40-year-old man to death Friday, authorities said.

The victim, who hasn't been identified, had worked at the actor's home for about two years and was responsible for caring for the dogs, said Los Angeles Police officer Sandra Gonzalez.

Animal services seized four mastiffs, she said.

"Two of those dogs appeared to be responsible for the tragic death," Officer Jason Lee said. Several more dogs were left at the property.

Police got a call at 7:15 a.m. from someone reporting a dead body at the home in Brentwood. Gonzalez did not know who made the call.

Authorities said the victim was found on the front lawn, and Lt. Ray Lombardo said at a news conference later that the man had many bites and scratches "which appear to be dog bites."

Rhames, 46, who appeared in the "Mission: Impossible" series of films, was not at home when the attack happened, she said. The actor bragged to Time magazine in 2001 that he had "eight Fila Brasileiro mastiffs — the national dog of Brazil, also used by U.S. Marines in jungle warfare."

Calls to Rhames' agent, Steve Muller, were not immediately returned.

link to story (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070803/ap_en_ot/people_ving_rhames_dog_mauling;_ylt=Anntqd1u2QxXsb B4KzpliBSs0NUE)