The Question of Character

[Dedhed]

The talk of the league going into the NFL draft was the new focus on character by NFL commissioner, Roger Goodell. If you look at the teams who most notably flew in the face of the commissioner's warnings you might notice that they are, arguably, the most well run franchises in the NFL. I don't think it's coincidence.

Being that this is a Broncos board, the focus is clearly on Denver and their selection of two Florida Gators with blemishes on their college resumes. Denver's 4th round selection, Marcus Thomas, was labeled the poster child for the Goodell character movement. But, the team that delved even more deeply into the character cesspool was the golden franchise of the NFL; the New England Patriots. They selected Brandon Merriweather in the first round; a player with not only has had drug issues in college, but was involved in an exchange of gun fire with lord knows who. Then they made a trade for Randy Moss, who outside of Pac Man Jones and Chris Henry is the worst character the NFL has seen in a number of years. The Patriots don't seem to care.

The point in all this is that the better franchises in the league have been given an advantage. Let's face the truth, some of the best athletes coming out of college come from difficult backgrounds and get into trouble. The more reputable franchises can afford to take chances on talented players with character concerns for two reasons; 1-Those players are more likely to toe the line in a franchise with a solid reputation and locker room stability. 2-The commissioner's new stance on character will target franchise's with a history of character issues. Teams like the Broncos and Patriots can afford to take chances because of their reputations.

Had the Bengals or Titans selected Merriweather or Thomas, a code red would have been issued from the commisioner's office. The Patriots and Broncos of the NFL will be given the benefit of the doubt and have more leeway to give players second chances. As evidenced by this weekend's activities they are going to take advantage of that leeway, and why wouldn't you. In a league dominated by parity, you have to capitalize on even the smallest advantage.

[footstepsfrom#27]

The commissioner's new stance on character will target franchise's with a history of character issues. Teams like the Broncos and Patriots can afford to take chances because of their reputations.
Eh...I don't know how to break this to you but our rep ain't that great.

[Steve Sewell]

Eh...I don't know how to break this to you but our rep ain't that great.

I was going to say the same thing. We usually have 1 or 2 problems every year. The league is currently cutting us some slack because of the DWill and Nash situations earlier this year.

That being said, I don't understand why everyone is getting their panties in a twist over college kids who smoked pot. Were you calling for Mike Anderson's head when he was suspended after a second failed drug test? No, you were counting the days until he was able to come back. The reality is, a lot of NFL players smoke pot...a lot more than any of us think. 90% of them get away with it, and 10% do not would be my guess. I'd be willing to bet that 60-70% of NFL players have smoked pot at some time in their lives.

People need to chill out and realize that these two players were not engaging in violent criminal behavior. They were doing what a lot of other college kids do...smoked pot. And they got busted for it. I remember how big of an idiot I was in college so by no means will I judge their character.

[Atlas]

Funny how top prospects Okoye and Adams admitted to smoking pot but since they never got caught people don't make a big deal about it. So as long as you don't get caught your not a character risk??

[Hogan11]

The Buffalo Bills taking Marshawn Lynch as their #1 pick kinda takes air of the advanced theories as well.

[Tredici]

Teams like the Broncos and Patriots can take chances because their coaches are bullet proof.

[Mountain Bronco]

The Broncos and Patriots are not in the same league as the Bengals or Titans. Look how fast Shanny got rid of Clarret when he started whining. Shanny will drop the 4th round picks in heartbeat, meaning the NFL won't come down on us.

Also, people need to get overthemselves. If you have never done anything questionable or illegal while in college or any other time in your life and have never used drugs, then by all means question these players use of pot. Otherwise, keep your mouth shut.

[Beantown Bronco]

I would rather a kid who screwed up in college and got caught and punished vs. the kid who screwed up in college and either never got caught or did get caught but was never punished.

99% of these kids being drafted have done things that would get them in hot water with the commissioner's office. And let's face it. The great majority of them have been told their whole lives how great they are and how untouchable they are. I would rather draft the guys who have been "humbled" recently rather than those who still believe they are untouchable.....any day.

[Dedhed]

Eh...I don't know how to break this to you but our rep ain't that great.

Completely untrue. Whenever pundits talk about the best franchises in the league, the Broncos are mentioned.

[Mountain Bronco]

Its not like the Broncos drafted a guy who packs heat and decided to curb stomp another players head on the field (Merriweather). They simply smoked pot like the majority of college students due these days.

[Dedhed]

Teams like the Broncos and Patriots can take chances because their coaches are bullet proof.
The coach is the face of the franchise, and has more impact on the franchise's rep than just about anything else.

[Dedhed]

Its not like the Broncos drafted a guy who packs heat and decided to curb stomp another players head on the field (Merriweather). They simply smoked pot like the majority of college students due these days.

Smoking pot in college doesn't even register as a character concern with me. Involvement in truly criminal behavior scares me. Assault, theft, guns, those are bigger issues in my eyes.

[DenverBrit]

Funny how top prospects Okoye and Adams admitted to smoking pot but since they never got caught people don't make a big deal about it. So as long as you don't get caught your not a character risk??

I had the same thought.
We have to wonder about that strange double standard.

[Kaylore]

Funny how top prospects Okoye and Adams admitted to smoking pot but since they never got caught people don't make a big deal about it. So as long as you don't get caught your not a character risk??

Thank you. Gaines Adams, Okoye, Calvin Johnson - no one is grilling their GM's about pot. Shanahan's picks are just easier to attack because they were/are teammates who had the same problem and they roomed together. The one concern that I have about Thomas is that he kept doing it and didn't stop. However sometimes having your career ruined and character questioned can take people out of self-destructive behavior. We'll see, but until he does something wrong as a Bronco, I'm going to give him the benefit of the the doubt.

[Atlas]

The one concern that I have about Thomas is that he kept doing it and didn't stop. However sometimes having your career ruined and character questioned can take people out of self-destructive behavior. We'll see, but until he does something wrong as a Bronco, I'm going to give him the benefit of the the doubt.

That's not true. The second failed test was actually overturned because they had it so close to the first test the pot was still in his system from the first test. As far as him not finishing up his AA meetings. I can understand this. I had to go to AA meeting when I was in college for my degree and they are very awkward. I mean it's very uncomfortable to sit through them when you don't have a problem. I can picture how hard it is for a 19 year old to sit through. HE probably thought know oner would know if he just stopped going. I don't think it's a big thing. They know they are on a short leash and they will give their best behavior. I'm really liking this draft now. I think Denver got some steals and I think they just fortified their D-line for years to come.

[cutthemdown]

Funny how top prospects Okoye and Adams admitted to smoking pot but since they never got caught people don't make a big deal about it. So as long as you don't get caught your not a character risk??

That's what I have been saying. Some schools could catch a player shooting up and just cover it up. Marcus Thomas was given some pretty strict guidlines to follow and he messed up by breaking curfew. I broke alot of curfews in my day. The other problems they had were weed related. Most of the draft admitted to smoking pot so what's the big deal. If you get caught you are a risk and if you get away with it we welcome you with open arms? That makes no sense to me. These 2 players are both good kids that have never done anything that bad. They will both make great Broncos because my Orange and Blue crystal ball told me so. The media needs things to report so Broncos+players in the news+pot=story. Other then the scrutiny they are under they don't have to worry about anything that happened at FLA. All they have to worry about is putting forth max effort. They do that and our defense is going to be sick.

[cutthemdown]

Thomas was kicked of the team in the end for leaving Gainsville when he was supposed to stay there. At least that's the story Im sticking to.

[Atlas]

I went to a small college and I was really good. Looking back at what we did and the after game parties I would have hated to have been under the microscope that these players are under. You live and learn and the mistakes kids make in college are learning experiences for the rest of your life. These guys aren't Pac Man and they aren't Lawerence Phillips. THey got busted most athletes don't get busted. THese guys are probably better off because of it, now when they get all that money they will probably think twice before doing something crazy.

[Drek]

My problems with Moss and Thomas have nothing to do with what they did, but instead with when they did it.

I can excuse Moss' singular transgression as a guy who was greiving and made a bad choice, but righted the ship now and is really to go full speed ahead. Thomas on the other hand has made bad choice after bad choice for over a year now. That scares me. Its not him smoking pot, its him being told repeatedly "you're putting your future at risk" and continuing to do so.

Hopefully now he's learned his lesson and moving him to nearly the opposite side of the country on a 4th rounder's contract will cut him off from the bad elements of his youth. But there has to be a serious question about his decision making process.

Is it as bad as Meriweather who opened retaliation fire in his apartment complex? Probably not. Its definately nothing compared to Tank Tyler's past transgression of assaulting a police officer. These guys are getting a clean slate to work with and I expect them to make the most of it, but there is greater risk here than we have in Crowder and Harris, two team leaders who are nothing but stand up character guys.

[Atlas]

I can excuse Moss' singular transgression as a guy who was greiving and made a bad choice, but righted the ship now and is really to go full speed ahead. Thomas on the other hand has made bad choice after bad choice for over a year now. That scares me. Its not him smoking pot, its him being told repeatedly "you're putting your future at risk" and continuing to do so.

.

THat's not true. Thomas' second positive test was overruled because it was too close to his first test and that is why he tested positive again it was still in his system.

[Dedhed]

That's not true. The second failed test was actually overturned because they had it so close to the first test the pot was still in his system from the first test. As far as him not finishing up his AA meetings. I can understand this. I had to go to AA meeting when I was in college for my degree and they are very awkward. I mean it's very uncomfortable to sit through them when you don't have a problem. I can picture how hard it is for a 19 year old to sit through. HE probably thought know oner would know if he just stopped going. I don't think it's a big thing. They know they are on a short leash and they will give their best behavior. I'm really liking this draft now. I think Denver got some steals and I think they just fortified their D-line for years to come.
Funny story. I played DI college sports and was drug tested regularly. A teammate of mine tested positive for reefer even though he used a masking agent. He was tested a week later, and even though he hadn't smoked again his testing level was higher than the first test because he hadn't taken the masking agent. He was given a second failure because of it.

[c_lazy_r]

I just wish we had Al Wilson in the locker room to stay in these kids' face. It seemed like he was the type that would grab a guy by the facefask and chew his a$$ when he started acting stupid.

[Beantown Bronco]

I just wish we had Al Wilson in the locker room to stay in these kids' face. It seemed like he was the type that would grab a guy by the facefask and chew his a$$ when he started acting stupid.

All while Marvin Harrison stood up and made his way into the endzone...."locker room leaders" are overrated IMO. If a guy can't self motivate or realize that he screwed something up and needs to fix it by the time he reaches the NFL, then there isn't much hope. There are several ways to set a good example and mentor. Having a so-called leader around to yell at the younger guys is only going to get you so far IMO.

[yerner]

Don't buy into the hype. The nfl gives thes lap dog networks talking points and this year it was 'character concerns'. Plenty of bad guys were drafted this year.

[Dedhed]

All while Marvin Harrison stood up and made his way into the endzone...."locker room leaders" are overrated IMO. If a guy can't self motivate or realize that he screwed something up and needs to fix it by the time he reaches the NFL, then there isn't much hope. There are several ways to set a good example and mentor. Having a so-called leader around to yell at the younger guys is only going to get you so far IMO.
I could tell a story about Harrison, too. The NFL's poster boy for a gleaming character.

[fdf]

Also, people need to get overthemselves. If you have never done anything questionable or illegal while in college or any other time in your life and have never used drugs, then by all means question these players use of pot. Otherwise, keep your mouth shut.

No. I won't. Your argument above is just an attempt to end discussion without getting to the merits of the discussion. What you are saying is that noone who has ever done something wrong (ie everyone) is ever entitled to express an opinion about anyone else's behavior. That's deconstructionist heaven. But in the real world, it doesn't work. Suppose I made bad judgments in the past about drugs and then quit. That would probably give me a better perspective on the risks involved than someone who was lilly-white in that regard.

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion about the harmlessness of illegal drugs. In one sense, you are right--most people that smoke pot just get really stupid and unmotivated. When they are stupid from the pot, they don't even know they are stupid. But if they stop for six months or so, they stop being really stupid and unmotivated and get on with their lives.

I happen to think Moss and Thomas were young and stupid and hope they'll grow out of it. But to sit around and pretend that we haven't taken on a significant risk as a franchise is hiding your head in the sand.

Our differing opinions about the merits of smoking pot have NOTHING to do with the Bronco's decision to invest millions of dollars and irreplaceable draft picks in fellows who knew that smoking pot could cost them millions of dollars, and hurt their teammates and their schools; but toked-up anyway. That raises serious concerns about their ability to conduct themselves in an adult manner and to order their behavior as soon-to-be young millionaires on whom the future of the franchise depends.

In other words, you are confusing your opinion about pot and self-righteousness with what Moss and Thomas' actions say about their ability to make good judgments. I think their past histories (especially Thomas') make it more likely they will make bad judgements as Broncos--whether having to do with pot or something else--that will hurt the team. These are both high-risk/high-reward draft picks. It's about time that one of our high-risk personnel decisions paid off. It's been a long time and our history with this kind of high-risk decision is pretty grim.

[watermock]

I didn't make the chemistry that makes pot hide in the fat and coke eliminate in 48 hours.

Fact is not many of us are making a minimum of a quarter million so it shouldn't be too much to ask.

[Atlas]

locker room leaders" are overrated IMO. If a guy can't self motivate or realize that he screwed something up and needs to fix it by the time he reaches the NFL, then there isn't much hope. There are several ways to set a good example and mentor. Having a so-called leader around to yell at the younger guys is only going to get you so far IMO.


Try to tell that to the '97 Broncos. Denver had just lost two out of three games and they basically had no chance to win the division and the team was falling apart after the Romanowski spitting incident and John Elway stood up forgave Romo and told everyone that they needed to put it behind them. He single handedly brought a divided lockeroom back together and saved Denver's season. One thing all Super Bowl champions have in common is strong leadership from veteran players.

Locker room leaders are only overrated on teams that don't win anything.

[-Slap-]

Marcus Thomas alienated his teammates so badly he was barred from the Florida campus during Pro Day. Do you think his Gator teammates didn't want him around because they thought his Marijuana usage indicated low character? Or do you think they just felt he was a bad teammate and a bad guy?

[Beantown Bronco]

Try to tell that to the '97 Broncos. Denver had just lost two out of three games and they basically had no chance to win the division and the team was falling apart after the Romanowski spitting incident and John Elway stood up forgave Romo and told everyone that they needed to put it behind them. He single handedly brought a divided lockeroom back together and saved Denver's season. One thing all Super Bowl champions have in common is strong leadership from veteran players.

Locker room leaders are only overrated on teams that don't win anything.

I just don't buy it. When a game comes down to the wire and is won or lost on a last-second field goal, whether or not that field goal is made has nothing to do with what is said in the locker room before the game, during the week, etc....

[worm]

Marcus Thomas alienated his teammates so badly he was barred from the Florida campus during Pro Day. Do you think his Gator teammates didn't want him around because they thought his Marijuana usage indicated low character? Or do you think they just felt he was a bad teammate and a bad guy?

His teammates had him barred? Or his coaches?

If it was his coaches, then there were other reasons beyond just the marijuana, such as him telling a Gator recruit to attend a different school besides Florida because Meyers was too strict.

[Beantown Bronco]

Marcus Thomas alienated his teammates so badly he was barred from the Florida campus during Pro Day. Do you think his Gator teammates didn't want him around because they thought his Marijuana usage indicated low character? Or do you think they just felt he was a bad teammate and a bad guy?


Neither. It's my understanding it was a coaches' decision, not a player decision.

It was, after all, the fact that he was hanging out with his friends from the team outside the city that caused him to be kicked off the team to begin with. They invited him out and got him booted off the team because the coach found out about it. It's not like he went out partying in Orlando by himself....

[Rohirrim]

It's a mixed bag, isn't it? Some people put the O&B glasses on and think these picks have no possible outcome other than years of probowls and Lombardis. Others have a little more realistic opinion of human nature. It would be interesting to have a poll and match opinions regarding the expected outcome of this draft to the ages of the posters. My guess is that the older posters would be a little more pessimistic than the younger ones, simply because the more years you live, the more :bs: you hear. ;D

[footstepsfrom#27]

Completely untrue. Whenever pundits talk about the best franchises in the league, the Broncos are mentioned.
They're also mentioned when talking about problem players, which is what your post referenced. The list of our thugs and idiots is considerable, from Gerald Perry who got busted impersonating a vice cop and trying to get a hooker into his car to Romo and his prescriptions...Dale Carter...Vance Johnson...John Mobley and his DUI's...House beating his girlfriend and alcohol issues...obviously IHOP and Clarett...the list goes on.

I'm all for giving these new kids a chance since Shanny seems confident in their ability to learn from past mistakes, but let's not pretend we're looking at an operation with a sterling track record here when it comes to a squeaky clean image.

We're not the Bengals, Vikings or Raiders, but we've had our moments.

[bendog]

What's the rap on Moss' "character"? I recall he was apparantly drunk for some pre-draft interview, but I thought that was put to rest as being something of an oddity.

[footstepsfrom#27]

That's not true. The second failed test was actually overturned because they had it so close to the first test the pot was still in his system from the first test.
Actually that was his 3rd positive test. His first positive was in the spring of 2003 when he first got to Florida right before the spring intersquad game. His second and third were last year, but it's unclear if the reason he failed the third test was because of the short interval between tests or not. That's what he claims...the university has not commented on it. The fact that he was reinstated with conditions placed on him returning doesn't necessarily mean that he was right about this. It might mean they wanted their stud defensive tackle on the field and were trying to give him a chance to return. I'm not sure if there's even any way to determine whether the positive test resulted from the same incident or not. The third test was allegedly the one that also produced a postive for GHB as well, though we only have an off the record source at the university to confirm that. In any case, the existence of the 2003 positive test makes it apparent that he may have been doing it all along and just eventually got caught again.

The pot issues are secondary IMO to the fact that he knowingly violated his coaches directives on several occasions...4 at least...skipping the rehab, leaving town, violating curfews, and attending a game he was ordered not to. Insurbordination in the face of his second chance is more serious than the fact that he just had had positive drug tests. Having said that, and having worked with a lot of people in rehab who had drug problems, sometimes this stuff means more to people than their jobs or families. It's a positve sign that he's living with his high school coach and making an effort to place some accountability in his life. I hope he succeeds here bot for the team and for him.

[fontaine]

Insurbordination in the face of his second chance is more serious than the fact that he just had had positive drug tests. Having said that, and having worked with a lot of people in rehab who had drug problems, sometimes this stuff means more to people than their jobs or families. It's a positve sign that he's living with his high school coach and making an effort to place some accountability in his life. I hope he succeeds here bot for the team and for him.

This is exactly what I have a problem with.

It's not what he did wrong, it's his insurbordination when he got caught. This guy's supposed to be a leader right and a highly touted senior being scrutinized by scouts from all 32 teams. Even with that he chose to blow off the rules again and again until the program had no choice but to suspend him for 5 games. That kind of hard headed stupidity and immaturity isn't something that just goes away once you become a pro.

I have no doubt he'll continue to smoke pot and bend the rules but he'll just have to be less stupid about it, especially if he gets caught again.

As for his high school coach living with him? That's just a joke. Sooner or later this kid has to grow up because he's not going to have a coach/agent monitoring him 24 hours a day.

Sounds to me that there's far more going on with this kid than just three failed tests for marijuana.

[Rohirrim]

The other factor is that pretty soon these guys are going to look at their bank accounts and see a couple of numbers followed by more zeroes than they've ever seen before. That will be the first big test.

[worm]

Big Money had the immaturity flags when he came out also (what is it about Gators??).

Hopefully Warren will earn his paycheck off the field next year by showing the kids how to grow-up and be a pro....in less time than he did it in himself.

[Atlas]

Marcus Thomas alienated his teammates so badly he was barred from the Florida campus during Pro Day. Do you think his Gator teammates didn't want him around because they thought his Marijuana usage indicated low character? Or do you think they just felt he was a bad teammate and a bad guy?

Do you know what the story was behind that was?

I've heard that but no specifics. I saw the Moss interview and he was all behind Thomas saying he was a good guy that just made mistakes and that they were roomates and friends. So it doesn't sound like he alienated hiomself from Moss anyway.

[Atlas]

I just don't buy it. When a game comes down to the wire and is won or lost on a last-second field goal, whether or not that field goal is made has nothing to do with what is said in the locker room before the game, during the week, etc....

Did you ever play football? I mean to a certain extent you might be a little right. BUT playing football is like going to war. If you don't like each other and you don't respect each other than it's hard to pull together when times are tough. Lockerroom leaders are able to bring people together and keep people together and on the same page when things get difficult.

I have no doubt about this.

If it wasn't for the great lockerroom leadership of John Elway No way Denver would have pulled it together and won those playoff games on the road. NOWAY!

[footstepsfrom#27]

I have no doubt he'll continue to smoke pot and bend the rules but he'll just have to be less stupid about it, especially if he gets caught again.

As for his high school coach living with him? That's just a joke. Sooner or later this kid has to grow up because he's not going to have a coach/agent monitoring him 24 hours a day.

Sounds to me that there's far more going on with this kid than just three failed tests for marijuana.
I wouldn't be quick to discount the value of the coach being there right now. I don't know this kids background but a lot of these young guys come out of situations where they've never seen a positive male role model in their lives who spent any kind of time with them. This might be his first real opportunity to have somebody hold him accountable for his actions, and the fact that he apparently respects him enough to put himself under his authority is a positive sign. Let's assume a worst case scenario and say he does have an actual drug problem rather than just a couple of parties he went to. Rehab...at least the 12 step part...is about placing yourself at someone elses disposal for accountability . That seems to be what he's doing here. he's been there since November...camp starts in July...that's 8 months to basically get something he may have never had before. That's a positve benefit.

It's wise to remember that 21 year olds make some poor decisions. That doesn't have to mean they'll always do so. I feel better now about this pick than I did on draft day just because I know more details and we're seeing something going on that says the kid is at least trying to deal with his own irresponsibility now. I think it has a chance to work out, and the coach in his life might be the extra edge that makes it happen.

[Atlas]

It's wise to remember that 21 year olds make some poor decisions. That doesn't have to mean they'll always do so. I feel better now about this pick than I did on draft day just because I know more details and we're seeing something going on that says the kid is at least trying to deal with his own irresponsibility now. I think it has a chance to work out, and the coach in his life might be the extra edge that makes it happen.

ain't that the truth we would get drunk and drive around and steal street signs. I have yet to figure out why except they looked cool in our dorm rooms.

[Steve Sewell]

That's not true. The second failed test was actually overturned because they had it so close to the first test the pot was still in his system from the first test. As far as him not finishing up his AA meetings. I can understand this. I had to go to AA meeting when I was in college for my degree and they are very awkward. I mean it's very uncomfortable to sit through them when you don't have a problem. I can picture how hard it is for a 19 year old to sit through. HE probably thought know oner would know if he just stopped going. I don't think it's a big thing. They know they are on a short leash and they will give their best behavior. I'm really liking this draft now. I think Denver got some steals and I think they just fortified their D-line for years to come.

I had to go to AA meetings in college for a minor in possession ticket (I'd never get a job by OMane standards!). They give you a card to fill out each time you go with the date. All you have to do is forge initials on the damn thing and skip the sessions, which by the way are incredibly awkward. I mean, some of these people have 10+ DUI's, killed people in their cars...etc, etc. I was like "man, I don't have a problem at all"...it's easy to see why Thomas felt the same way. With regard to the attendance, no one can question the forgery because it's "Anonymous".

[Steve Sewell]

Completely untrue. Whenever pundits talk about the best franchises in the league, the Broncos are mentioned.

Dale Carter, Daryl Gardener, Mike Anderson, Rod Smith, Dwayne Carswell, Brandon Marshall, Maurice Clarrett, the list goes on...shall I continue?

[Atlas]

I had to go to AA meetings in college for a minor in possession ticket (I'd never get a job by OMane standards!). They give you a card to fill out each time you go with the date. All you have to do is forge initials on the damn thing and skip the sessions, which by the way are incredibly awkward. I mean, some of these people have 10+ DUI's, killed people in their cars...etc, etc. I was like "man, I don't have a problem at all"...it's easy to see why Thomas felt the same way. With regard to the attendance, no one can question the forgery because it's "Anonymous".


You know it. I mean when I went they went around and introduced themselves as alcohics and then it comes to your turn WTF are you suppossed to say. Hi My name is Atlas and well... uh.... It's very awkward.

[Dedhed]

Marcus Thomas alienated his teammates so badly he was barred from the Florida campus during Pro Day. Do you think his Gator teammates didn't want him around because they thought his Marijuana usage indicated low character? Or do you think they just felt he was a bad teammate and a bad guy?
You're just willing to say anything to try and back up your case aren't you? Marcus was ultimately kicked off the team for accompanying his teammates on a trip out of town. Hardly seems like a case of his teammates not wanting him around.

[Dedhed]

Dale Carter, Daryl Gardener, Mike Anderson, Rod Smith, Dwayne Carswell, Brandon Marshall, Maurice Clarrett, the list goes on...shall I continue?
You can make that list for EVERY team in the NFL. Every single one of them. Perception is all that matters when talking about the commissioner taking action against the team. And the Broncos, to their credit, cut ties with the players on that list who demonstrated they weren't going to take advantage of second chances. There are very few teams that will do that.

[bendog]

Dale Carter, Daryl Gardener, Mike Anderson, Rod Smith, Dwayne Carswell, Brandon Marshall, Maurice Clarrett, the list goes on...shall I continue?

So, your list there has two guys who were fired, and the team went after bonus money, an ex-marine who embarrassed himself by smoking weed which he apologized for and has avoided more trouble, a guy who hit his wife once and fixed his life, a guy with a history of violence towards women who appears to have fixed his life, a kid who did nothing wrong, and an idiot with a mental issue who lasted about five minutes.

I'm sorry, but you'll have to do better than that. I mean gimme a rapist or murderer or something.

[bendog]

btw, I lost track. What's the name of the guy who was accused of rape, but the woman decided not to testify? I think he was at USC, but transferred to another school.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

btw, I lost track. What's the name of the guy who was accused of rape, but the woman decided not to testify? I think he was at USC, but transferred to another school.

Eric Wright - Drafted by the Browns

[Steve Sewell]

Big Money had the immaturity flags when he came out also (what is it about Gators??).

Hopefully Warren will earn his paycheck off the field next year by showing the kids how to grow-up and be a pro....in less time than he did it in himself.

The top-flight football players in Florida play football year round. So most of the Florida players eat, sleep, and drink football from the time they are little kids. IMO, spending the majority of your adolescence playing football is probably not the healthiest activity when it comes to developing maturity and rational thinking. It's a testosterone environment 24/7, and you are expected to perform at a high level, go to Miami, FSU, or Florida, and make the big bucks in the NFL from an early age. Also, a lot of the kids in Florida come from really tough backgrounds. Not trying to generalize because it happens everywhere, but the urban areas in Florida are so crime ridden that sometimes you wonder if you are in still in the U.S.

[Steve Sewell]

Do you know what the story was behind that was?

I've heard that but no specifics. I saw the Moss interview and he was all behind Thomas saying he was a good guy that just made mistakes and that they were roomates and friends. So it doesn't sound like he alienated hiomself from Moss anyway.

It's called assuming something because you're too lazy to do your own research, and presenting it as fact. Ass u me.

Thomas, according to Moss, is a pretty good guy.

[bendog]

It's called assuming something because you're too lazy to do your own research, and presenting it as fact. Ass u me.

Thomas, according to Moss, is a pretty good guy.

But does that just mean he'll loan you a joint when you're out?