3 million factory jobs lost since 2001 . . .

[Cito Pelon]

Off season, and this is non-partisan, so I'll thread it here on the Central Discussion.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070420/ap_on_bi_ge/changing_work_force

By MARTIN CRUTSINGER, AP Economics Writer
Fri Apr 20, 3:02 PM ET



WASHINGTON - Three weeks ago, Dawn Zimmer became a statistic. Laid off from her job assembling trucks at Freightliner's plant in Portland, Ore., she and 800 of her colleagues joined a long line of U.S. manufacturing workers who have lost jobs in recent years. A total of 3.2 million — one in six factory jobs — have disappeared since the start of 2000.

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Many people believe those jobs will never come back.

"They are building a multimillion-dollar plant in Mexico and they are going to build the Freightliners down there. They came in and videotaped us at work so they could train the Mexican workers," said Zimmer, 55, who had worked at Freightliner since 1994.

That's the issue for American workers. Many of their jobs are moving overseas, to Mexico and China and elsewhere.

Just ask Tom Riegel.

He worked for 27 years making Pennsylvania House furniture at a factory in Lewisburg, Pa., until the plant shut down in December 2004. The production was moved to a plant in China, which kept making the furniture under the Pennsylvania House label for shipment back to the United States.

Rigel, 48, who has had health problems, hasn't worked since he lost his job running a molding machine. He says his prospects aren't good given the number of other furniture plants in the area that have suffered layoffs.

"It started with just a few pieces of furniture made in China. Then it snowballed," he said. "Manufacturing was built on the back of the American worker and then boom — one day your job is gone."

Even though manufacturing jobs have been declining, the country is enjoying the lowest average unemployment rates of the past four decades. The reason: the growth in the service industries — everything from hotel chambermaids to skilled heart surgeons.

Eighty-four percent of Americans in the labor force are employed in service jobs, up from 81 percent in 2000. The sector has added 8.78 million jobs since the beginning of 2000.

Although these workers have been largely sheltered from the global forces that have hit manufacturing, that could change as satellites and fiber optic cable drive down the cost of long-distance communication. Today it is call centers in India and the Philippines but tomorrow many more U.S. jobs could move off shore.

Some economists say the United States is experiencing a normal economic evolution from farms to factories and now to service jobs.

"Every advanced economy has seen its employment in agriculture and manufacturing decline relative to services and America is no exception," said Daniel Griswold, an economist at the Cato Institute, a Washington think tank.

But others note that the loss in manufacturing jobs has been accelerating in recent years as the trade deficit has grown and America imports more and more products that used to be made here.

"It is pretty crystal clear to our members that when their plant closes down, they know where their jobs are going," said Thea Lee, policy director at the AFL-CIO.

Princeton economist Alan Blinder, who was vice chairman of the Federal Reserve during the Clinton administration, says the number of jobs at risk of being shipped out of the country could reach 40 million over the next 10 to 20 years. That would be one out of every three service sector jobs that could be at risk.

Those lost manufacturing jobs are fueling an intense debate over globalization — the increasing connection of the United States and other economies.

That debate will play out in Congress over the coming months as the Bush administration tries to muster the votes needed to pursue its free-trade policies.

Opponents will seek increased protections for American workers against unfair trade practices and push such proposals as wage insurance and better job training for the victims of globalization.

Democrats, who took control of both the House and Senate in last year's elections, believe up to one-third of those lost manufacturing jobs are the direct result of America's soaring trade deficits, which have hit new records for five straight years.

Last year's deficit was $765.3 billion — that is, the U.S. imported $765.3 billion more in goods and services than it exported. The imbalance with China hit an all-time high for a single country at $232.5 billion.

In 1943 and 1944, with factories working overtime to build the ships, tanks and planes needed to fight World War II, manufacturing accounted for four out of 10 jobs in the U.S. That was the peak; manufacturing has been declining ever since. Manufacturing now accounts for one job in 10 in the nonfarm work force.

Over the past 16 years, manufacturing has declined as a percentage of the work force in 48 of the 50 states. Nevada's percentage stayed the same and only North Dakota saw an increase.

The declines have been particularly painful in the industrial Midwest and rural South, which have been battered by competition from China.

"China has just exploded on the global scene since 2002. Every economy on the planet has lost jobs to China," says Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody's Economy.com, an economic forecasting company.

A Moody's analysis found 16 percent of the nation's 379 metropolitan areas are in recession, reflecting primarily the troubles in manufacturing. There have been heavy job losses in a variety of industries from textiles and apparel to paper and furniture.

Critics contend China uses a variety of unfair trade practices from widespread copyright piracy of American products to keeping its currency undervalued by as much as 40 percent to make Chinese goods cheaper in comparison with U.S. products.

On April 9, the Bush administration, responding to growing political pressure, announced the latest in a string of tough actions against China. It filed trade cases with the World Trade Organization accusing China of erecting unfair barriers to the sale of U.S.-made movies, music and books and rampant copyright piracy.

But Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and other Bush administration officials argue that despite the yawning U.S.-China trade gap, President Bush's free trade policies are paying off in new markets that have helped U.S. exports boom.

While manufacturing jobs have declined, manufacturing output has been rising. The difference is increased productivity, which means it takes fewer workers to make more goods.

"We are evolving to a point that we are manufacturing things that are not easy to manufacture. That require skills. We believe that is our future. And those are the manufacturing jobs that pay the most," Commerce Secretary Carlos Gutierrez said in an interview.

High-tech industries, where the U.S. is still seen as having the edge, include pharmaceuticals, medical devices and airplanes.

But even high-tech industries are facing pressure from imports. The U.S. Business and Industry Council, which represents small- and medium-sized manufacturing companies, found that between 1997 and 2005, 110 of the 114 U.S. industries it studied had lost ground to imports in the U.S. market. That was the case even in such sectors as computers and telecommunications hardware.

Just the threat of moving high-paying white collar jobs such as computer programmers and graphic designers offshore will likely add to pressures on Congress to erect barriers to global competition, which many economists believe would do more damage than good.

"It is easy to see this turning into some kind of protectionist force which would be harmful," Blinder said in an interview. "We need to turn the debate in a constructive direction — how do you prepare the work force of the future and compensate the losers?"
**********************************************


What the heck is going on with manufacturing in this country? How is it we seem to be spiraling downward in manufacturing? Myself, I think not building metric goods is a show-stopper. The US is the only country on the planet that uses the SAE "inch" gauge. This applies to telecommunications also. The US is the only country in the world that uses the T-1 system. Everybody else uses the E-1 system. So US manufacturers have to build two systems - one for export, another for domestic use. Both with tools and with telecom.

More and more, foreign manufacturers don't have that problem. They build metric and the market is larger than the US domestic market. This is ugly, and it has nothing to do with politics, it comes down to common sense.

[Bronx33]

Outsourcing sucks and big business don't give a rats a** about american workers (case closed)...


(made in china)

[ColoradoDarin]

There are many issues with this. First, the key line in the article "While manufacturing jobs have declined, manufacturing output has been rising. The difference is increased productivity, which means it takes fewer workers to make more goods." We are making more stuff than we have been with fewer people. Machines are taking people's jobs.

Part of it is tax and regulation. Just a couple of note on those, there are many more problems. For instance, inheritance taxes hurt small businesses (and especially manufacturing small businesses because of the cost/value of PPE). W/R/T regulation, it's amazing all the levels of reg's you have to have with owning business. My dad started his own company 12 years ago, he grew it to 48 employees and stopped because once he hit 50 there were a ton more regulations to comply with, it just wasn't worth the hassle (he since sold it and retired).

Like I said, there are a lot of other things involved.

Whenever I have kids, I'm gonna tell them to be plumbers, electricians, HVAC, or own their business - something where they will have a bit more control over their success.

[WoodMan]

We only have ourselves to blame. Who buys all the stuff made in china, mexico, the phillipines, and indonesia. We do. Do yourselves a favor and look for "made in America" labels. Of course this has been being said for decades and very few people have paid any attention yet. Most would rather buy foreign made at Walmart to save themselves a buck.

[Dr.5280]

Hey there! If you're out of work in this country why don't ya head south, swim the river, find a job and send money home.

[watermock]

The stone cold fact is robots will continue to expand.

Berkely said he HAD to move to Tailand or go out of business with his fishing manufacturing. Anyone who fishes has a Berkely rod or Trilene line.

Here's the kicker. First a story. As a small child, there was a locker in this tiny town were you could get a pig or cow slaughtered and frozen. So I truck down on my banana bike and he had a couple curios for sale, and there was a mothe3r hen. You took off her head and there were two eggs.Salt and Pepper. Made in Japan. This is 40 years ago. Carefully pedaling back up the hill with the mother hen, I proudly annouced my Mother's Day present.

These are my exact words: "It's imported...Made in Japan.."

OK here is the seious point about "Made in Japan"...my Yamaha drum set that is bulletproof and really nice? In really tiny print is "Made in Malaysia".

The stone cold fact is that companies will continue to outsource, use more robots, and bigger and better machines every year. That's a simple fact of productivity.

Want to know where NIKE makes it's shoes? Vietnam.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Just like you can't easily stop emails and faxes from crossing borders, you also can't stop the spread of technology. The spread of cheaper but just as effective technology coupled with labor forces that work for pennies on the US dollar make this the tip of the iceberg. Read Thomas Friedman's The Earth is Flat and Daniel Pink's A Whole New Mind. These jobs are leaving and never coming back but something better will eventually take their place. Twenty years ago it was about finding the right job. Now it's about making your own job. If you're not already planning on how to create your own business collaborating with other people and doing something that can't be easily replicated cheaper in China or done faster with computers, you're going to be extinct. Tech workers who drop into the service industry make far less than they did. The good news is this cycle will ultimately force such profound changes we'll readjust our entire economy around what we do best...innovate and design.

[Cito Pelon]

There are many issues with this. First, the key line in the article "While manufacturing jobs have declined, manufacturing output has been rising. The difference is increased productivity, which means it takes fewer workers to make more goods." We are making more stuff than we have been with fewer people. Machines are taking people's jobs.

Part of it is tax and regulation. Just a couple of note on those, there are many more problems. For instance, inheritance taxes hurt small businesses (and especially manufacturing small businesses because of the cost/value of PPE). W/R/T regulation, it's amazing all the levels of reg's you have to have with owning business. My dad started his own company 12 years ago, he grew it to 48 employees and stopped because once he hit 50 there were a ton more regulations to comply with, it just wasn't worth the hassle (he since sold it and retired).

Like I said, there are a lot of other things involved.

Whenever I have kids, I'm gonna tell them to be plumbers, electricians, HVAC, or own their business - something where they will have a bit more control over their success.

That's the key. This is very complicated, and the fixes are complicated. Even the word "fix" is too simplistic. It's a leadership issue. Where's the leaders in American industry? They're international. Hell, the big guy at Ford up til 2003 was formerly the head of Ford Australia. Chrysler is/was owned by Mercedes.

It's leadership and savvy. Nissan was dead broke three years ago, despite having the best engine technology on the planet. Renault bought Nissan, and danged if they didn't turn Nissan around, and meanwhile Renault won the Formula One title last year with their own chassis and own engine. Only Ferrari has done that in the last 15 years, I believe. What the hell?

The Indy car series here in the USA is dominated by Honda power plants. What the heck is going on here? We can't build engines? We've lost some steam here lately, we're losing ground.

[Cito Pelon]

We only have ourselves to blame. Who buys all the stuff made in china, mexico, the phillipines, and indonesia. We do. Do yourselves a favor and look for "made in America" labels. Of course this has been being said for decades and very few people have paid any attention yet. Most would rather buy foreign made at Walmart to save themselves a buck.

Before this inexplicable rage for "Free Trade" that occurred in the 1990s, there was a balance between domestic and foreign goods.

Now, the balance is off some. Some is generous.

We're not competing worth a dang nowadays, and I don't buy into the "our wages and bennies" are too high argument that the CEO's put forth. For every decrease in wages and bennies, the executive salaries increase so the net is the same.

There's basics like how can a Dodge truck that is tooled SAE sell in Kenya when every other vehicle in Kenya is tooled metric? You can't fit a square peg in a round hole.

[watermock]

You care to tell me how many Dodge Trucks wento to Kenya?"

[houghtam]

I think we have to put just as much blame on unions as we do corporations. Why should we blame a company that's trying to save money for outsourcing $25.00/hr jobs that can be done at $5.00/hr in another country? Perhaps if we (and I say "we" here, non-partisan) had been a little more forward thinking and not allowed wages and benefits get so high we wouldn't be facing down the barrel right now. I don't make nearly as much as your average auto worker, and, suffice it to say, anyone with half a brain can do it. In fact, most other countries do it better, and for cheaper. Perhaps if American companies send more manufacturing jobs to other countries, American product will start to get better.

I'll buy stuff with "Made in the USA" written on it once "Made in the USA" gives me a sense of confidence in the product I'm buying.

[Cito Pelon]

You care to tell me how many Dodge Trucks wento to Kenya?"

Do you have a point you want to make? If so, make it. Make the point or ramble, mock, one or the other.

[Cito Pelon]

I think we have to put just as much blame on unions as we do corporations. Why should we blame a company that's trying to save money for outsourcing $25.00/hr jobs that can be done at $5.00/hr in another country? Perhaps if we (and I say "we" here, non-partisan) had been a little more forward thinking and not allowed wages and benefits get so high we wouldn't be facing down the barrel right now. I don't make nearly as much as your average auto worker, and, suffice it to say, anyone with half a brain can do it. In fact, most other countries do it better, and for cheaper. Perhaps if American companies send more manufacturing jobs to other countries, American product will start to get better.

I'll buy stuff with "Made in the USA" written on it once "Made in the USA" gives me a sense of confidence in the product I'm buying.

That's a good point. I've worked union, non-union and management of both. The bottom line is you have to produce the best finished goods to maintain top status. The US is not doing that right now.

There is no easy solution, it's complicated. I stated that I think one of the first steps is to get in line with the rest of the manufacturing world and go metric. I guess this is too overwhelming.

[Bob]

A while ago I tried to buy an American car, and bought a GM. When I got home and opened the door, I noticed the large Canadian Maple leaf plastered on the door Jam that stated "GM of Canada."

I thought it ironic, but at least I tried. The concern that I have is that as we attempt to compete with China, India and their slave-like labor costs, and lack of environmental controls, it becomes a race to the bottom, that I am not sure we want/can to win. I little bit of Nationalism, like the Japanese have, when it comes to attempting to support the immediate community that we live in would help in slowing down the erosion of our ability as a nation to build something of intrinsic value. As a society, instead of going to the local butcher to pay a few extra dimes for a pot roast, we sever our arm and have a tasty treat. Then we complain about our decreased options.

Not to mention the ability to protect ourselves if need be. Think of the companies that saved our butts in WWII: Packer, Nash, Studebaker, Chrysler, GM, & Ford. We now are down to two that are American owned; the others died long ago, or were bought out by other nations. But in a pinch I am sure we could ask the Chinese to build some tanks for us, and the needed electronic equipment.

I guess we can all be website developers, work at Wendy’s or drive a truck – oops sorry, bad example, our government will take away that middle class job soon and give it to Mexicans -- don’t worry, go back to sleep… so long as you have your piece of pie, everything will be ok.

[watermock]

Do you have a point you want to make? If so, make it. Make the point or ramble, mock, one or the other.

Your the one who made the asserion. Land Cruisers, Range Rovers and Toyota pickups are much more common along with som Nissans.

I didn't make the assertion. You obviously don't understand the idea of an assertion.

JFYI, we use the Cummings motors to pull huge loads with Dodge trucks. So don't pull some "Anti Dodge" card.

My Nephew's SDuty is amusing.

[maven]

Cito, do you own an S500 which is currently your avy? Just wondering...

[maven]

It's leadership and savvy. Nissan was dead broke three years ago, despite having the best engine technology on the planet. Renault bought Nissan, and danged if they didn't turn Nissan around, and meanwhile Renault won the Formula One title last year with their own chassis and own engine. Only Ferrari has done that in the last 15 years, I believe. What the hell?

The Indy car series here in the USA is dominated by Honda power plants. What the heck is going on here? We can't build engines? We've lost some steam here lately, we're losing ground.[/QUOTE]

Renault, a French company, purchased a 5 billion Euro stake in Nissan back in 1999 & currently owns 44% of Nissan.

[maven]

The Indy car series here in the USA is dominated by Honda power plants. What the heck is going on here? We can't build engines? We've lost some steam here lately, we're losing ground.

Has nothing to do with power plants in regards to Indy car. A lot of companies pulled the plug, with Honda essentially dominating the series because no other engine builders cared to join. I believe there is one Chevy powered Indy car, maybe 2 in today's lineup. When Indy car split into 2 back in the day, a lot of the engine builders quit and ran to Nascar.

[Cito Pelon]

A while ago I tried to buy an American car, and bought a GM. When I got home and opened the door, I noticed the large Canadian Maple leaf plastered on the door Jam that stated "GM of Canada."

I thought it ironic, but at least I tried. The concern that I have is that as we attempt to compete with China, India and their slave-like labor costs, and lack of environmental controls, it becomes a race to the bottom, that I am not sure we want/can to win. I little bit of Nationalism, like the Japanese have, when it comes to attempting to support the immediate community that we live in would help in slowing down the erosion of our ability as a nation to build something of intrinsic value. As a society, instead of going to the local butcher to pay a few extra dimes for a pot roast, we sever our arm and have a tasty treat. Then we complain about our decreased options.

Not to mention the ability to protect ourselves if need be. Think of the companies that saved our butts in WWII: Packer, Nash, Studebaker, Chrysler, GM, & Ford. We now are down to two that are American owned; the others died long ago, or were bought out by other nations. But in a pinch I am sure we could ask the Chinese to build some tanks for us, and the needed electronic equipment.

I guess we can all be website developers, work at Wendy’s or drive a truck – oops sorry, bad example, our government will take away that middle class job soon and give it to Mexicans -- don’t worry, go back to sleep… so long as you have your piece of pie, everything will be ok.

That is a big deal. That is the problem I had with "Free Trade" from the get go. Sure, the goods are cheap, but what is the long term cost? Globalization was/is good for investors - me included - but without the EPA like the US has had, what does the industrializing world look like?

It looks like the US before the EPA. Foul air and foul water. I don't know how this will all turn out, but I'm a big fan of clean air, clean water, non-toxic soil.

I drive a Mercedes, but it's relatively clean for it's class, and I don't step on Mother Nature too much other than that.

It's tough to balance what you want and what's best for everybody. Real tough. Sacrifice what I want and can attain to better the planet? That's hard to swallow. I like my Mercedes, I worked hard for it. But I don't insist that I should be able to drive it everywhere.

It's a tough call, we'll see how it turns out.

[maven]

I like my Mercedes, I worked hard for it. But I don't insist that I should be able to drive it everywhere.



Mercedes are the Chevy's of the world, just not in America.

[watermock]

I don't care if you drive a Yugo.

[Tredici]

Let's see... slave wages.

Rampant consumerism.

Slave wages.

Rampant comsumerism.

Chicken

Egg

[maven]

Check out this hot Mercedes! Whoops, it's America so it's a Dodge

http://www.dodgeforum.com/models/sprinter/images/Dodge-Sprinter.jpg

[Bob]

That is a big deal. That is the problem I had with "Free Trade" from the get go. Sure, the goods are cheap, but what is the long term cost? Globalization was/is good for investors - me included - but without the EPA like the US has had, what does the industrializing world look like?

It looks like the US before the EPA. Foul air and foul water. I don't know how this will all turn out, but I'm a big fan of clean air, clean water, non-toxic soil.

I drive a Mercedes, but it's relatively clean for it's class, and I don't step on Mother Nature too much other than that.

It's tough to balance what you want and what's best for everybody. Real tough. Sacrifice what I want and can attain to better the planet? That's hard to swallow. I like my Mercedes, I worked hard for it. But I don't insist that I should be able to drive it everywhere.

It's a tough call, we'll see how it turns out.

Free trade with China means that they are free to violate copy laws, that the Jananese can tariff the crap out of Washington State apples, and American built cars. Not to mention Montana beef (that under pretense of madcow) halt trade for years. There is an unequal application -- other nations are protectionist, we are not.

[Jason7730]

Outsourcing sucks and big business don't give a rats a** about american workers (case closed)...


(made in china)

Ditto...

[watermock]

I heard they were working on replicating California blonds but with brains...Be scared, be Very Scared.

[Cito Pelon]

Mercedes are the Chevy's of the world, just not in America.

For what it's worth, a Mercedes in the US also has emissions restrictions per EPA dictate. A Mercedes anywhere else does not. I don't really know what that is worth.

I do know for sure the atmosphere of this planet is not as clear as it was when I was a boy 40 years ago. Used to be I could see a lot more stars, the skies were much clearer than I see at night these days. The Milky Way was crystal clear every clear night not so long ago. Now, I see it only on the clearest of nights. It's a fine line, but there we are.

[watermock]

Your obviously not old enough to remember the smog of the 60's.

[Cito Pelon]

Free trade with China means that they are free to violate copy laws, that the Jananese can tariff the crap out of Washington State apples, and American built cars. Not to mention Montana beef (that under pretense of madcow) halt trade for years. There is an unequal application -- other nations are protectionist, we are not.

It's ugly, we live and breathe the vagaries of free trade. If you're an investor and you have a lot of fingers in a lot of pies, it's not so bad, you can weather the storms. If you're a yougster with little education, no degree, nothing but service skills, you'll be scrambling all your life.

Maybe that's good, maybe that's bad, I don't know. It's different than what I grew up with. Free Trade opens up a lot of opportunities, it also relegates some people to crap jobs. Seems to me like these days is like the old days pre-union, prior to the "Organize or Perish" movement of American labor in the 1890's. I guess we'll see how it plays out.

I wish you younger rank-and-file folks the best of luck in your battles against management - and you will certainly see those battles. Attack , and see what happens is the best advice I can give.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

There are many issues with this. First, the key line in the article "While manufacturing jobs have declined, manufacturing output has been rising. The difference is increased productivity, which means it takes fewer workers to make more goods." We are making more stuff than we have been with fewer people. Machines are taking people's jobs.

.

On the money. Technology is replacing more manufacturing jobs than the number of jobs moved out of the country.

[smalltowngrll]

This very thing hits home for me. Four years ago, I was Controller for a Wood Products Manufacturer. We basically made furniture parts and wood flooring. Anyway, most of our competitors were companies overseas as well as Russia. There was just no way we could compete...thus we had to shut the doors. I had to face the daunting task of laying off 85 employees. That was a very difficult task because I really enjoyed the family we had built there.

Oh the up side of things, I found a government sponsored program that allows those that you laid off to go back to school, any type of college or trade school) and obtain training in any different field they choose. They also received an extra year or two (I can't remember) of unemployment. They also qualified for state health insurance and many other benefits. I'd say that about 40% of the workers took advantage of that and now have jobs in a different field which they really enjoy...most paying MUCh better than we could have ever paid them. That's on th eup side...

The downside, it's just difficult to recover from being laid off sometimes. Especially when living paycheck to paycheck.

[ScottXray]

The outsourcing of jobs to cheaper labor areas will continue no matter what.

BUT, we need to make the playing field a little more level by actually enforcing fair trade laws....especially with the Chinese, but also with anyone who violates the system like they do. Dumping goods and devalueing their currency to keep their economy in boom equals unfair trade practice. A tariff on ALL their goods until they stop should be enacted. They want to sell here...sell at REAL prices.

What most people don't want, but what is inevitable, is the standard of living in the US has got to come down. We can't continue to use more resources than virtually every other nation and expect not to pay for it. Large SUV's , Hummers, every family to have a large home with central heat and air.

A lot of our infrastructure is in poor shape (roads, bridges, sewer, water power distribution, schools) and will need reconstruction in the next 20 years....it's going to cost a lot...and we have to pay for it or suffer the consequences. Nobody wants to pay anymore, but every year of delay drives the price up.

The future is bright...but we might be on the sidelines watching if we're not willing to sacrifice soon.

[Cito Pelon]

The US has to go metric. It's silly to be the only country on the planet that is not metric. There's a lot of long-term problems that can come to bear.

[Willynowei]

Some of the solutions that people propose here are exactly the reason that Americans are losing jobs. Boycotting foreign made goods is hopeless, it will never work. Aligning as Unions against big business will only last a short time. And furthermore, even things like pressuring China to appreciate its currency is flat out stupid and completely pointless in the long run.

American Businesses are partly to blame for outsourcing instead of building infrastructure here in the US, but if they can get similar labor for cheaper then thats not much of their problem, untill the American labor market drastically improves.

The real problem comes in two parts. The first is education. Considering how rich the US is, American kids should be way ahead of foreigners. I personally think the problem has to do with a few issues including culture, state of being, lack of specialized learning, and to some extent funding.

The second part has to do with subsidization. Education can only help the future generations but for Americans who are being outcompeted now for cheaper labor, there is definitely, atleast in my mind a real solution.

Subsudization needs to be a lot more specialized in this country, we shouldn't just give Company A $XXXXXXXX amount to help growth and forget about it. All money should go strictly towards research, making faster, more efficient but also more complex production plants.

Complex means you need an educated, experienced operator. This encourages restructuring in US firms instead of just expansion of plants in numbers, which will never lead to anything except outsourcing. Government needs to look into research grants and subsidization for R&D. And thats something that Americans as voters can change.

[Willynowei]

The outsourcing of jobs to cheaper labor areas will continue no matter what.

BUT, we need to make the playing field a little more level by actually enforcing fair trade laws....especially with the Chinese, but also with anyone who violates the system like they do. Dumping goods and devalueing their currency to keep their economy in boom equals unfair trade practice. A tariff on ALL their goods until they stop should be enacted. They want to sell here...sell at REAL prices.

What most people don't want, but what is inevitable, is the standard of living in the US has got to come down. We can't continue to use more resources than virtually every other nation and expect not to pay for it. Large SUV's , Hummers, every family to have a large home with central heat and air.

A lot of our infrastructure is in poor shape (roads, bridges, sewer, water power distribution, schools) and will need reconstruction in the next 20 years....it's going to cost a lot...and we have to pay for it or suffer the consequences. Nobody wants to pay anymore, but every year of delay drives the price up.

The future is bright...but we might be on the sidelines watching if we're not willing to sacrifice soon.


Those are popular points and I think they are both very wrong.

1.) Appreciation of a government controlled currency only helps in the short run while chinese firms have not adjusted their wage rates; after a few years chinese goods simply get cheaper than they currently are. In other words, it does nothing in the long run.

2.) Now its definitely true that conservation of natural resources is important and some fuel economy legislation can help. However, living conditions should never go down, and the best way for an economy to grow is to spend. The more people desire to spend, the more they are willing to work, AGGD goes up, prices up, wage up, back to AggD, etc. China's resource consumption doubles every year. US shouldn't be doing that by any means, but my point is that even though oil should be conserved, growth is never a bad thing.

[ant1999e]

Soon we'll be crossing to mexico to find jobs.