So, What Do You Think About The Confederate Flag?

[RhymesayersDU]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2837735

Updated: April 14, 2007, 11:55 PM ET
Spurrier: Flag should come down from S.C. Statehouse
Associated Press

COLUMBIA, S.C. -- The Confederate flag shouldn't fly at the Statehouse, South Carolina football coach Steve Spurrier said Saturday after the Gamecocks' spring game.

Spurrier's comments came in response to questions about something he said Friday night when he received an award from a volunteer organization. According to people at that event, Spurrier said the flag should come down.

"My opinion is we don't need the Confederate flag at our Capitol," Spurrier said Saturday. "I don't really know anybody that wants it there, but I guess there are a lot of South Carolinians that do want it there."

City Year board chairman Kerry Abel said Spurrier's remarks at his group's awards banquet Friday night caught everyone by surprise.

On a video of the banquet, Spurrier is heard saying the South Carolina-Tennessee game last year, which was featured on ESPN's "GameDay," was marred "by some clown ... waving that dang, damn Confederate flag behind the TV set. And it was embarrassing to me and I know embarrassing to our state.

"I realize I'm not supposed to get in the political arena as a football coach, but if anybody were ever to ask me about that damn Confederate flag, I would say we need to get rid of it. I've been told not to talk about that. But if anyone were ever to ask me about it, I certainly wish we could get rid of it."

Jenna Micklash, who attended the event, said the coach's comments came as he accepted a citizenship award from the group, which encourages young people to take on community improvement projects.

Micklash said Spurrier prefaced his remarks by saying the event wasn't supposed to be political and said that he doesn't usually get a chance to talk to as diverse a crowd as the one that was at the awards ceremony.

"I think everybody got kind of excited about" bringing down the flag, Micklash said later Friday. "It was one of the coolest moments I've seen."

Spurrier's predecessor, Lou Holtz, joined Clemson's football coach Tommy Bowden and both schools' head basketball coaches in calling for the flag to be removed from the Capitol dome in 2000, when the NAACP started a boycott of the state.

The flag was removed from the dome in 2000 but placed at the Confederate Soldier Monument on Statehouse grounds. The state chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People said that was not good enough and continued its boycott. The initial boycott drew wide support from inside and outside the state, but encouragement for the ongoing effort has waned in recent years.

The NCAA has prohibited the state from playing host to championship events in which the sites are deterimined in advance -- such as the basketball regionals -- since 2001 because of the Confederate flag.

Spurrier said Saturday that no one had asked him his opinion of the flag in the two season he has coached at South Carolina.

[Rocket 7]

Do they still way the flag at Ole Miss?

[WABronco]

I've never heard anyone make a valid argument as to why it's still acceptable (i'd like someone to try, honestly). There's always gonna be those rednecks and redneck wannabees that will have it on their trucks, but above a state capital?

[Rock Chalk]

flag was removed from the dome in 2000 but placed at the Confederate Soldier Monument on Statehouse grounds

Seems to me this is one of the few places where it might be appropriate to bear that flag. JMO.

[ZONA]

I don't know why it's still around either. It doesn't represent a county, state, city, county, government body, military branch, university, business institution, and the list goes on. What it does represent is the past, therefore it should be in a museum and that's it.

[2KBack]

Seems to me this is one of the few places where it might be appropriate to bear that flag. JMO.

I agree, memorials and museums, but not state buildings

[GonzoLays]

So, what do you think of the confederate flag, Rhymes? You keep popping up with these explosive threads yet you never give your opinion on the matter.

[GonzoLays]

Bendog, get your ass in this thread and tell everyone about how your daughter will not allow you to fly your rebel flag. Tell'em, it was a good story.

[GonzoLays]

Do they still way the flag at Ole Miss?

Nope, they now fly the M symbol flag.

[usedupbraids]

One word ....WOW

[listopencil]

I can understand why people don't want it flown at a government building. It doesn't represent anything having do to with our Federal or any State government. I will, however, display it proudly when and where I chose. It is properly called "The Battle Flag Of The Confederacy" and it represents the fighting men of the Confederate South.

[listopencil]

"The flag was removed from the dome in 2000 but placed at the Confederate Soldier Monument on Statehouse grounds."


Then either put the monument somewhere else or stop bitching.

[scorpio]

It is properly called "The Battle Flag Of The Confederacy" and it represents the fighting men of the Confederate South.

No, it represents traitors and enemies of the United States of America.

[listopencil]

No, it represents traitors and enemies of the United States of America.

They aren't mutually exclusive, you incredible dumbass.

[GonzoLays]

I'm all for hillbillies flying their hillbilly flag. It's their right and more power to them.

And besides, what kind of perception do you have of a person flying a flag that is no longer relevant and associated with racism (rightly or wrongly). Not flattering to say the least. You are screwing yourself basically.

[listopencil]

I'm all for hillbillies flying their hillbilly flag. It's their right and more power to them.

And besides, what kind of perception do you have of a person flying a flag that is no longer relevant and associated with racism (rightly or wrongly). Not flattering to say the least. You are screwing yourself basically.


And it's your right to express that perception just as it is my right to fly that flag.

[GonzoLays]

And it's your right to express that perception just as it is my right to fly that flag.

I'm with you on that. cheers

[BroncoInferno]

There is no legitimate reason to fly that flag. It represents oppression, nothing honorable. You don't see Germans hanging the Nazi flag over their state houses. I mean, it is part of their "heritage", right?

By the way, where they moved the flag in SC is actually more visible now than it was above the state house. Anyone driving in downtown Columbia can't miss it.

[GonzoLays]

I guess rhymes never has an opinion. He just goes with what the majority says.

[scorpio]

They aren't mutually exclusive, you incredible dumbass.

:giggle:

Wow, are you going to cry when they take your traitor's colors down? Do you fly a North Vietnamese and Nazi flag too?

Incredible dumbass indeed.

[Florida_Bronco]

There's always gonna be those rednecks and redneck wannabees that will have it on their trucks

I can't wait for that fad to die out. It disgusts me to no end.

[WABronco]

There is no legitimate reason to fly that flag. It represents oppression, nothing honorable. You don't see Germans hanging the Nazi flag over their state houses. I mean, it is part of their "heritage", right?

That's exactly what I was going to say.

[listopencil]

:giggle:

Wow, are you going to cry when they take your traitor's colors down? Do you fly a North Vietnamese and Nazi flag too?

Incredible dumbass indeed.


1) Our Founding Fathers were traitors and enemies of the British Empire.

2) I don't live in S.C.

3) You're still a dumbass.

[Rascal]

I understand southern pride, but it is a direct insult to every black person in this country for what it stands for and also to the soldiers of the North who died.

IMO it shouldn't be allowed to hang at any organization, state, whatever that receives federal money.

[Dagmar]

The confedarate flag is for racists and bigots.

http://libsyn.com/images/scottleffler/confederate_flag.jpg

[Bronco_Beerslug]

No reason at all to display the Confederate Navy Jack on any government grounds. I see that in Georgia, North Carolina, Alabama, Maryland, Mississippi, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia and Louisiana you can still get license plates featuring the Sons of Confederate Veterans flag logo.

[listopencil]

There is no legitimate reason to fly that flag. It represents oppression, nothing honorable. You don't see Germans hanging the Nazi flag over their state houses. I mean, it is part of their "heritage", right?

By the way, where they moved the flag in SC is actually more visible now than it was above the state house. Anyone driving in downtown Columbia can't miss it.


You, like many people, don't know what the flag represents. You are confusing a flag that represents a political entity with one that represents a military force.

[Rascal]

Then pray tell what it is suppose to mean, because to every black person out there it represents racism and slavey. IMO that is a bigger concern then whatever some southern rednecks thinks it represents to them.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

You, like many people, don't know what the flag represents. You are confusing a flag that represents a political entity with one that represents a military force.
Uh, it does represent racial hatred and bigotry to most people no matter the origin of the flag.

[Rascal]

The confedarate flag is for racists and bigots.

http://libsyn.com/images/scottleffler/confederate_flag.jpg

:thumbsup:

[GonzoLays]

The confedarate flag is for racists and bigots.

http://libsyn.com/images/scottleffler/confederate_flag.jpg

If you want to go with that parallel, son, then the flag of the United States of America stands for racists and bigots, too.

[WABronco]

You, like many people, don't know what the flag represents. You are confusing a flag that represents a political entity with one that represents a military force.

Understood. I did not know that the flag in question was in fact the flag of the Confederate army. Without getting too abstract, where's the separation between the fighting force and the political ideals?

The Confederate army wasn't made up of paid mercenaries, correct?

I'm not trying to be an argumentative prick, just wondering if that's a valid point.

[BroncoInferno]

You, like many people, don't know what the flag represents. You are confusing a flag that represents a political entity with one that represents a military force.

You, like many people, try to use semantical arguments like the above to justify honoring a flag of hatred. There is nothing honorable about either the political or military aspects of the Confederacy.

[GonzoLays]

I don't think slavery would exist today had the confederacy won. The only thing that would be different is that there would no longer be a United States; most likely a country divided into four regions with strong state rights and limited federal power.

People in this thread act as if the North was an equal opportunity employer before the civil war. LMAO! It was, and still is, just as racist up north as it is down south.

[listopencil]

Understood. I did not know that the flag in question was in fact the flag of the Confederate army. Without getting too abstract, where's the separation between the fighting force and the political ideals?

The Confederate army wasn't made up of paid mercenaries, correct?

I'm not trying to be an argumentative prick, just wondering if that's a valid point.

There was a problem during the Civil War with opposing forces not being able to recognize each other. Many of the forces were made up of citizens without uniforms and the flags that the forces were using were very similar. The Battle Flag of the Confederacy was originally designed as a national flag by its creator but the design had been rejected twice and wasn't going to be used. It was adopted by Confederate armed forces and used by them. That particular flag was only used by the armed forces of the Confederacy. That's who it represents.

[Rascal]

I don't think slavery would exists today had the confederacy won. The only thing that would be different is that there would no longer be a United States; most likely a country divided into four regions with strong state rights and limited federal power.

People in this thread act as if the North was an equal opportunity employer before the civil war. LMAO! It was, and still is, just as racist up north as it is down south.

You don't know, and four seperate countries instead of one is a horrible thing. For one, we might have lost WWI and/or WWII. How would you like to have part/all of this country occupied by Germany or Japan?

Things worked out the way they did, and this country and everybody that lives here is better for it. The south lost, get over it.

BS...Nobody claimed the North was perfect at the time of the war, or today.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

There was a problem during the Civil War with opposing forces not being able to recognize each other. Many of the forces were made up of citizens without uniforms and the flags that the forces were using were very similar. The Battle Flag of the Confederacy was originally designed as a national flag by its creator but the design had been rejected twice and wasn't going to be used. It was adopted by Confederate armed forces and used by them. That particular flag was only used by the armed forces of the Confederacy. That's who it represents.Not really. It represents all them upstanding boys (who claim it) in mostly red states now. It also represents, like I said, racial hatred and bigotry for the huge majority of the nation no matter it's origin.

[listopencil]

You, like many people, try to use semantical arguments like the above to justify honoring a flag of hatred. There is nothing honorable about either the political or military aspects of the Confederacy.

I find the living embodiment of the spirit of the Second Amendment very honorable. I respect the decision of the Confederates to fight because I understand that slavery was not the sole issue of the Civil War. I find it ironic that you condemn the ignorance of bigotry yet display your own ignorance while discussing the topic.


Was that clear enough for you or was it still too semantical?

[GonzoLays]

You don't know, and four seperate countries instead of one is a horrible thing.

Things worked out the way they did, and this country and everybody that lives here is better for it. The south lost, get over it.

BS...Nobody claimed the North was perfect at the time of the war, or today.

You think I give a **** who won the civil war? You act as if that I am crestfallen that I cannot proudly fly the rebel flag. :giggle:

For one, we might have lost WWI and/or WWII. How would you like to have part/all of this country occupied by Germany or Japan?

Oh please, you actually think the Japanese could cross the Pacific and the Germans the Atlantic with enough man power to take over any part of the United States? Give me break. The world has never been imperialised (sp?) under one flag or been divided between two nations. So please, don't go there with "thank god you ain't speaking Japanese." That **** would have never happened. Its not even logical. A little tiny ass island nation half way across the world takes over the parts of the United States. That's loony.

[listopencil]

Not really. It represents all them upstanding boys (who claim it) in mostly red states now. It also represents, like I said, racial hatred and bigotry for the huge majority of the nation no matter it's origin.

I'm certain that there are racists who display that flag as an expression of their hate. I've seen it myself and it sickens me.

[BroncoInferno]

I find the living embodiment of the spirit of the Second Amendment very honorable. I respect the decision of the Confederates to fight because I understand that slavery was not the sole issue of the Civil War. I find it ironic that you condemn the ignorance of bigotry yet display your own ignorance while discussing the topic.

I know the history of the flag, you arrogant ass. I know the original intent, etc, and that is irrelevant to what it came to represent. The flags representation is not the same as it was in 1865. Meaning is not always fixed; it can change over time for a variety of societal and political reasons.

[Rascal]

You think I give a **** who won the civil war? You act as if that I am crestfallen that I cannot proudly fly the rebel flag. :giggle:
.

No I think you like to be an ass, and are a racist bigot so that's why you fly the flag. :giggle:


Oh please, you actually think the Japanese could cross the Pacific and the Germans the Atlantic with enough man power to take over any part of the United States? Give me break. The world has never been imperialised (sp?) under one flag or been divided between two nations. So please, don't go there with "thank god you ain't speaking Japanese." That **** would have never happened. Its not even logical. A little tiny ass island nation half way across the world takes over the parts of the United States. That's loony.

As one nation yes it's looney, but as four seperate countries not really.

[Rascal]

I'm certain that there are racists who display that flag as an expression of their hate. I've seen it myself and it sickens me.

Then you should understand that that flag should not be flown at any organization, state, whatever that receives federal money. If some redneck wants to hang it, that's their choice.

[BroncoInferno]

By the way, listo, I'm not clear if you are arguing in favor of hanging the flag over the state house or just for your own personal use. If the latter, no argument, private citizens have the right to express themselves in any way they see fit, whether or not it offends others. State and federal property represents all citizens, and the fact that the flag offends such a large segment of the population--black, white, or otherwise--means it has no place being displayed as a representative symbol of the state.

[listopencil]

I know the history of the flag, you arrogant ass. I know the original intent, etc, and that is irrelevant to what it came to represent.


Bull****. It is what it is.

The flags representation is not the same as it was in 1865. Meaning is not always fixed; it can change over time for a variety of societal and political reasons.

Perception is reality? You know that swastika looks a lot like a Christian cross to me. Maybe we should ban crosses.

[GonzoLays]

Then you should understand that that flag should not be flown at any organization, state, whatever that receives federal money. If some redneck wants to hang it, that's their choice.

You know, a lot of hate groups fly the US flag, too. And considering the contemptible history of this nation, why give that flag an OK and shoot down the rebel flag?

[Rascal]

You know, a lot of hate groups fly the US flag, too.

Do those hate groups receive federal money?

Don't bother posting without a link.

[listopencil]

Then you should understand that that flag should not be flown at any organization, state, whatever that receives federal money. If some redneck wants to hang it, that's their choice.


http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=1551781&postcount=11



http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=1551797&postcount=16

[listopencil]

By the way, listo, I'm not clear if you are arguing in favor of hanging the flag over the state house or just for your own personal use. If the latter, no argument, private citizens have the right to express themselves in any way they see fit, whether or not it offends others. State and federal property represents all citizens, and the fact that the flag offends such a large segment of the population--black, white, or otherwise--means it has no place being displayed as a representative symbol of the state.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=1551781&postcount=11



http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=1551797&postcount=16

[Rascal]

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=1551781&postcount=11

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=1551797&postcount=16


Good, then we are in agreement.

[BroncoInferno]

Bull****. It is what it is.

Yep. It's a representation of oppression and hatred. You are absolutely correct.

Perception is reality?

Symbolism of an object is not a fixed state of reality. The meaning can change as history acts upon that object.

You know that swastika looks a lot like a Christian cross to me. Maybe we should ban crosses.

Weak.

[BroncoInferno]

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=1551781&postcount=11



http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=1551797&postcount=16

Fair enough.

[GonzoLays]

Do those hate groups receive federal money?

Don't bother posting without a link.

Do any hate groups in America receive federal money? I'm not aware of any hillbilly rebel flag flying hate groups receiving federal money.

[Rascal]

Do any hate groups in America receive federal money? I'm not aware of any hillbilly rebel flag flying hate groups receiving federal money.

Exactly my point.

[GonzoLays]

You know, slavery existed under the American flag as well. Should we stop flying that flag on federal property? Because as we all know, bigots and racists flew that flag and it represents oppression and hatred. Get a new flag?

[listopencil]

Yep. It's a representation of oppression and hatred. You are absolutely correct.


Nope. That's what you have allowed it to become in your head.



Symbolism of an object is not a fixed state of reality. The meaning can change as history acts upon that object.

True enough but this is fairly recent history and a very specific symbol.



Weak.

No weaker than your argument.

[GonzoLays]

Exactly my point.

What is your point? What is the difference between the United States flag and the confederate flag? How is one flag more untainted than the other?

[Dagmar]

Wait, what are people arguing about? Stuff like this degenerates fast here recently.

[Spider]

Confederate is a flag of those that declared war on the United States ........why would any one want to fly a flag that once stood for our enemy ?

[Rascal]

You know, slavery existed under the American flag as well. Should we stop flying that flag on federal property? Because as we all know, bigots and racists flew that flag and it represents oppression and hatred. Get a new flag?

*sigh*

Well for one the federal gov't eliminated it. You don't know, you can assume all you want but the fact is you simply don't know, that the South ever would have done the same.

[listopencil]

You know, slavery existed under the American flag as well. Should we stop flying that flag on federal property? Because as we all know, bigots and racists flew that flag and it represents oppression and hatred. Get a new flag?



Maybe a dollar sign?

[GonzoLays]

Maybe a dollar sign?


CHING-CHING!

[Rascal]

What is your point? What is the difference between the United States flag and the confederate flag? How is one flag more untainted than the other?

???

My point was that it shouldn't be flown at any organization, state, whatever that receives federal money. If some rednecks or hate groups want to fly it, and be associated with bigotry and racism to the majority of this country, that is their freedom of choice.

[NYBronco]

If we could find a way for the suicide bombers and terrorists to proudly display their flag or badge of honor then at least we would know openly who these losers are.

[listopencil]

Confederate is a flag of those that declared war on the United States ........why would any one want to fly a flag that once stood for our enemy ?

When does your Federal government become your enemy? Does the flag represent the people or the government? Or does it represent an ideal that can be unrealized by either the people or the government?

[Rascal]

Wait, what are people arguing about? Stuff like this degenerates fast here recently.

I have no idea now, Gonzo seems to think that we should all move to Canada or get a new flag that isn't tainted.

[listopencil]

CHING-CHING!


That could be the new National Anthem. We'll need one of those too.

[cutthemdown]

I agree, memorials and museums, but not state buildings

I agree no state buildings. Only official flags!!!!!!!! But yes I can see at memorials and museums. And of course any American who wants to fly it on their property can do so.

[BroncoInferno]

Nope. That's what you have allowed it to become in your head.

No, that's what the Jim Crow era and the Ku Klux Klan (among other groups) transformed the meaning of the flag into once they adopted the flag with separatist and racist ideals in mind.

True enough but this is fairly recent history and a very specific symbol.

History has done a lot with that flag in the last 142 years.

No weaker than your argument.

History has not linked the Nazi flag with crosses. History HAS linked the Rebel flag with oppression and hatred.

[GonzoLays]

???

My point was that it shouldn't be flown at any organization, state, whatever that receives federal money. If some rednecks or hate groups want to fly it, and be associated with bigotry and racism to the majority of this country, that is their freedom of choice.

But why? It is not illegal to fly the rebel flag. So why can't states do it?

[Spider]

When does your Federal government become your enemy? Does the flag represent the people or the government? Or does it represent an ideal that can be unrealized by either the people or the government?

The Confederacy has never been or will be my Government , The North /South war was over tarrifs and trade ....... the confederacy started the war ...... That makes them enemy's of America .......

[listopencil]

No, that's what Jim Crow and the Ku Klux Klan (among other groups) transformed the meaning of the flag into once they adopted the flag with separatist and racist ideals in mind.


I'm taking it back.


History has done a lot with that flag in the last 142 years.


That's called revisionism.


History has not linked the Nazi flag with crosses. History HAS linked the Rebel flag with oppression and hatred.

We're not concerned with what "History" has done. Only with what my perception is of that symbol. Perception is reality, remember? How is my own perception less valid than yours?

[listopencil]

The Confederacy has never been or will be my Government


No, I mean when is The Federal Government Of The United States of America your enemy? Can you imagine a situation where it would be even though you were following what you believe to be the principals that this nation was founded upon?

[Spider]

No, I mean when is The Federal Government Of The United States of America your enemy? Can you imagine a situation where it would be even though you were following what you believe to be the principals that this nation was founded upon?

Bush and the republicans have been the worst we have had , so far we are surviving ;D , but no I cant picture a situation where the Fed Gov will become my enemy ........

[sirhcyennek81]

The confederate states had over a dozen flag designs, the most famous being the rebel flag. They also flew a white flag with the rebel jack in the upper left corner, they also had the Stars & Bars, 3 white and red stripes, blue field in the left corner with 7 stars, for their navy, they developed a solid blue flag with 7 white stars. I understand the shrillness and the reaction to seeing a confederate flag...but its part of American history. Shunning it is hardly helpful and actually castigates the people who fought in it, on both sides. The civil war was not exclusively about slavery, popular myth aside.


:Broncos:

[cutthemdown]

This really isn't an important issue imo.

[maven]

Do they still way the flag at Ole Miss?

No, but this is Mississippi's state flag.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/42/Flag_of_Mississippi.svg/800px-

[sirhcyennek81]

Over time the flag has acquired a wide range of meanings, some apparently contradicting one another. Since the CSA was fighting for independence during the Civil War, much as the United States did during the Revolutionary War, the Confederate Flag has always had connotations of rebellion, patriotism, self-determination, dissent, freedom, and liberty. Since the issues of slavery and, later, segregation, are deeply intertwined with the CSA and the Civil Rights Movement, the Confederate Flag can also be considered to have connotations of racism and slavery. Its use is currently a contentious issue across the United States...-Per Wikipedia.

:Broncos:

[Bronco_Beerslug]

The confederate states had over a dozen flag designs, the most famous being the rebel flag. They also flew a white flag with the rebel jack in the upper left corner, they also had the Stars & Bars, 3 white and red stripes, blue field in the left corner with 7 stars, for their navy, they developed a solid blue flag with 7 white stars. I understand the shrillness and the reaction to seeing a confederate flag...but its part of American history. Shunning it is hardly helpful and actually castigates the people who fought in it, on both sides. The civil war was not exclusively about slavery, popular myth aside.
:Broncos:
Yes, the Confederate Navy Jack.

Shunning it? You can make your drapes and bedsheets out of it for all I care. When it comes to displaying it on taxpayer property, that's inappropriate.

[sirhcyennek81]

Yes, the Confederate Navy Jack.

Shunning it? You can make your drapes and bedsheets out of it for all I care. When it comes to displaying it on taxpayer property, that's inappropriate.


So you pay taxes in any state that may display the confederate flag or a modification of it?


:Broncos:

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Yes, the Confederate Navy Jack.

Shunning it? You can make your drapes and bedsheets out of it for all I care. When it comes to displaying it on taxpayer property, that's inappropriate.
So you pay taxes in any state that may display the confederate flag or a modification of it?
:Broncos:There are only 6 or 7 states that haven't directly taken my money at one time or another but taxes are pooled and redistributed to all states by the federal government.

[sirhcyennek81]

[QUOTE=sirhcyennek81;1551961]There are only 6 or 7 states that haven't directly taken my money at one time or another but taxes are pooled and redistributed to all states by the federal government.


So...have you ever resided in a state that has a confederate design incorporated into its state flag? If not...then why does it matter to you what the residents of that state choose as a symbol for their particular state?


:Broncos:

[Rascal]

[QUOTE=Bronco_Beerslug;1551967]


So...have you ever resided in a state that has a confederate design incorporated into its state flag? If not...then why does it matter to you what the residents of that state choose as a symbol for their particular state?


:Broncos:

maybe because they are receiving federal dollars?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

[QUOTE=Bronco_Beerslug;1551967]
So...have you ever resided in a state that has a confederate design incorporated into its state flag? If not...then why does it matter to you what the residents of that state choose as a symbol for their particular state?
:Broncos:Did you read what I said? My belief is that it is inappropriate to display the Confederate Navy Jack on taxpayer property.

[sirhcyennek81]

[QUOTE=sirhcyennek81;1551968]

maybe because they are receiving federal dollars?


California receives federal tax dollars to support illegals, I dont necesarily like that, but I am not going to force California to adopt things the people who live there do not like.

:Broncos:

[sirhcyennek81]

[QUOTE=sirhcyennek81;1551968]Did you read what I said? My belief is that it is inappropriate to display the Confederate Navy Jack on taxpayer property.


You are not a resident of a state who may display that flag...what difference does it make to you? You do not pay taxes in that state, and you have no way of knowing if federal tax dollars go to buy new state flags every year. Its a mindless distraction that has no real bearing on anything important.


:Broncos:

[footstepsfrom#27]

No on government property...OK on private property.

[16-JakE-16]

You, like many people, don't know what the flag represents. You are confusing a flag that represents a political entity with one that represents a military force.
Money. I laugh at the rednecks who rep the flag but laugh harder at those who oppose it and associate it exclusively with slavery.

[GreatBronco16]

So anyone who displays that flag is a 'redneck' or 'hillbilly' etc???


So does that mean we can start slinging all the other racial terms at our own discression around here? I'm sure that would go over really well.

This board has been a racial sespool the past couple of months.

Man the season can't get here quick enough.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

[QUOTE=Bronco_Beerslug;1551973]
You are not a resident of a state who may display that flag...what difference does it make to you? You do not pay taxes in that state, and you have no way of knowing if federal tax dollars go to buy new state flags every year. Its a mindless distraction that has no real bearing on anything important.
:Broncos:
:wave:

What part don't you understand? It's MY opinion that taxpayer money should not be used to provide a host for the Confederate Navy Jack!

And how do you know or not if one of the states I live in displays that flag?

[sirhcyennek81]

So anyone who displays that flag is a 'redneck' or 'hillbilly' etc???

So does that mean we can start slinging all the other racial terms at our own discression around here? I'm sure that would go over really well.

This board has been a racial sespool the past couple of months.

Man the season can't get here quick enough.


I have noticed alot more that anyone who tends to have a conservative viewpoint is usually referred to as hillbilly or redneck. Its interesting.


:Broncos:

[penguintheory]

No, but this is Mississippi's state flag.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/42/Flag_of_Mississippi.svg/800px-

Dead last in almost every relevant statistic applicable to state education, productivity, and general welfare rankings amongst the 50 states. Rebel Pride!

[sirhcyennek81]

[QUOTE=sirhcyennek81;1551984]
:wave:

What part don't you understand? It's MY opinion that taxpayer money should not be used to provide a host for the Confederate Navy Jack!

And how do you know or not if one of the states I live in displays that flag?


1. Of all the things in this life to worry about, the confederate jack is not one of them.

2. I dont. You have not said definitively you have, so I assume you have not.

3. Get over yourself.


:Broncos:

[Bronco_Beerslug]

1. Of all the things in this life to worry about, the confederate jack is not one of them. Says who, you? How do you presume to speak for me or anyone else on my opinion to what happens with my taxes or how I or others feel about displaying a symbol of racial bigotry and hatred?

2. I dont. You have not said definitively you have, so I assume you have not.But you did, and you assumed incorrectly.

3. Get over yourself.
LOL
Maybe you should get over yourself. :~ohyah!:

[penguintheory]

So far the arguments we have for keeping the Confederate flag flying on taxpayer property:

1) It's not a symbol of hatred, it's a military symbol of an army. Which fought against the United States.

2) The Civil War wasn't completely about slavery, anyway.

3) It's a symbol of pride in... a defunct and defeated confederacy.

4) California provides services to illegal immigrants so South Carolina should be able to fly whatever flag it wants.


Niiiiiiiiiice!

[Taco John]

I do not appreciate the flag that tried to weaken the United States. I appreciate that there are a lot of our brothers now who look fondly on that flag because their ancestors fought under it. But I disagree with what they were fighting for, and am glad that it's the flag that lost.

[listopencil]

So far the arguments we have for keeping the Confederate flag flying on taxpayer property:

1) It's not a symbol of hatred, it's a military symbol of an army. Which fought against the United States.

2) The Civil War wasn't completely about slavery, anyway.

3) It's a symbol of pride in... a defunct and defeated confederacy.

4) California provides services to illegal immigrants so South Carolina should be able to fly whatever flag it wants.


Niiiiiiiiiice!




You forgot one:


"United States Constitution


Bill Of Rights



Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

[sirhcyennek81]

Says who, you? How do you presume to speak for me or anyone else on my opinion to what happens with my taxes or how I or others feel about displaying a symbol of racial bigotry and hatred?
But you did, and you assumed incorrectly.

LOL
Maybe you should get over yourself. :~ohyah!:



I did not presume anything. You seem to be the one to argue with any viewpoint that does not match yours. Of all the things our money gets spent on...this is so far down on the list of things to be mad about that it should not even register. But I am sure you will keep harping on it.


:Broncos:

[69bronco]

i'm not going to read 4 pages of politics but I hate seeing mexico, canadian, and other flags in the u.s. more than the confederate flag.

[SureShot]

No, it represents traitors and enemies of the United States of America.

Damn right!

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I did not presume anything.
Sounds like to me you were "presuming". Short term memory problems?


You are not a resident of a state who may display that flag...what difference does it make to you? You do not pay taxes in that state, and you have no way of knowing if federal tax dollars go to buy new state flags every year.

[listopencil]

Damn right!



Hell, yeah!

[TexanBob]

No, it represents traitors and enemies of the United States of America.

Democrats then, Democrats now. Some things never change.

[sirhcyennek81]

Sounds like to me you were "presuming". Short term memory problems?


Whatever works for you. You dont live there, its not like you have to look at the flag daily...so what difference does it make to you at the end of the day? Thats not presuming you feel any particular way about it, but a normal reaction on my part to an idiotic premise. The only people a confederate canon should matter to are the people who have to look at it or deal with it. That was the point of my argument.


:Broncos:

[spdirty]

I don't get it. If Colorado went to war with New Mexico, because Colorado wants slaves and New Mexico doesn't, and us Coloradans lost, I wouldnt be going around carrying the Colorado flag, bringing the event up all the time.

Here's another analogy. Always bringing up, with pride, the 1990 Super Bowl. The was a horrible day in Broncos history, I woudnt go around, bringing it up like it was the shining moment in my teams history, because it wasnt. I don't know. People in the south are just different I guess.

[listopencil]

I don't get it. If Colorado went to war with New Mexico, because Colorado wants slaves and New Mexico doesn't, and us Coloradans lost, I wouldnt be going around carrying the Colorado flag, bringing the event up all the time.

Here's another analogy. Always bringing up, with pride, the 1990 Super Bowl. The was a horrible day in Broncos history, I woudnt go around, bringing it up like it was the shining moment in my teams history, because it wasnt. I don't know. People in the south are just different I guess.




Have you ever been exposed to how Texans feel about The Alamo?

[spdirty]

Have you ever been exposed to how Texans feel about The Alamo?

been to the Alamo before but most Texans I have known never brought it up. I also spent a year and a half in Mississippi and it was like every 4th car had some Confederate flag decal on it. I don't know, just don't care much for how southerners feel about themselves. They're as self important and arrogant as New Yorkers are. Just stupid to me.

[listopencil]

been to the Alamo before but most Texans I have known never brought it up. I also spent a year and a half in Mississippi and it was like every 4th car had some Confederate flag decal on it. I don't know, just don't care much for how southerners feel about themselves. They're as self important and arrogant as New Yorkers are. Just stupid to me.



Yeah, that's about as truthful as most generalizations are. I was asking you about the Alamo because the Texans lost.

[Popcorn Sutton]

I agree with Spurrier. It has no place on a govt building.

[penguintheory]

Yeah, that's about as truthful as most generalizations are. I was asking you about the Alamo because the Texans lost.

... to Mexico....

[GreatBronco16]

I don't know, just don't care much for how southerners feel about themselves. They're as self important and arrogant as New Yorkers are. Just stupid to me.


Yeah, if only everyone could be like you and the state you live in. Wow, what a wonderful day that would be. A country full of self-centered assholes.

Now my last statement is about as true as your generazation of the south, or anywhere really.

I've seen more racism here on this board than I do here in Alabama everyday.

But hey, I'm just an uneducated 'redneck/hillbilly' who wants slavery and all black people shipped back to where they came from........wait a minute, that means 99% would still be here in the states. My bad. Continue on with the mudslinging.

[penguintheory]

Yeah, if only everyone could be like you and the state you live in. Wow, what a wonderful day that would be. A country full of self-centered a-holes.

Now my last statement is about as true as your generazation of the south, or anywhere really.

I've seen more racism here on this board than I do here in Alabama everyday.

But hey, I'm just an uneducated 'redneck/hillbilly' who wants slavery and all black people shipped back to where they came from........wait a minute, that means 99% would still be here in the states. My bad. Continue on with the mudslinging.

Yeah, and all people from California are gay hippies who are afraid of guns!

[-Slap-]

There is no legitimate reason to fly that flag. It represents oppression, nothing honorable. You don't see Germans hanging the Nazi flag over their state houses. I mean, it is part of their "heritage", right?

You'll be hard pressed to find anybody in Germany these days who even knew a Nazi.

;)

[Killericon]

I will say this;

If ANY other nation on earth had a Civil War like yours as long ago as yours was, they would NOT be putting the flag of the losing, pro-slavery side on bumper stickers.

For better or for worse, it's one of the things that makes Americans Americans.

[SPORTSWRITER]

Dead last in almost every relevant statistic applicable to state education, productivity, and general welfare rankings amongst the 50 states. Rebel Pride!

Rebel Pride? I don't think so. Especially condidering that the State of Mississippi has a population with a BLACK majority last I heard.

[SPORTSWRITER]

i'm not going to read 4 pages of politics but I hate seeing mexico, canadian, and other flags in the u.s. more than the confederate flag.

AMEN!!

[Spider]

So anyone who displays that flag is a 'redneck' or 'hillbilly' etc???


So does that mean we can start slinging all the other racial terms at our own discression around here? I'm sure that would go over really well.

This board has been a racial sespool the past couple of months.

Man the season can't get here quick enough.

I am a redneck , and a democrat ......... I dont mind being called a redneck , I am as blue collar as they come ...... stop crying

[footstepsfrom#27]

Rebel Pride? I don't think so. Especially condidering that the State of Mississippi has a population with a BLACK majority last I heard.
37% are black. http://www.answers.com/topic/mississippi

[Jason in LA]

Can we officially name RymesayerDU the asshole of the board? Why is he starting these threads...and then not even posting in them? Why is he starting heated racial debates?

[Killericon]

Can we officially name RymesayerDU the a-hole of the board? Why is he starting these threads...and then not even posting in them? Why is he starting heated racial debates?

It's pretty hard to start a debate without willing participants.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Can we officially name RymesayerDU the a-hole of the board?
To many good candidates to choose... ;D

[penguintheory]

Rebel Pride? I don't think so. Especially condidering that the State of Mississippi has a population with a BLACK majority last I heard.

Can't you just taste the irony?

[Jetmeck]

I've never heard anyone make a valid argument as to why it's still acceptable (i'd like someone to try, honestly). There's always gonna be those rednecks and redneck wannabees that will have it on their trucks, but above a state capital?

It's just a flag. Ignore it if you don't care for it.

[broncocalijohn]

I am not a southern boy so I only can use my expert viewing of the Dukes of Hazzard. I think it is basically a one finger salute to anyone outside the south. They fought for state rights and the flag still represents it. Me against the world attitude. Even enemies rally around it. Boss Hogg and the Duke Boys would come together to make sure the rebel flag is not disrespected. Irony in that. Disrespected.

[SPORTSWRITER]

37% are black. http://www.answers.com/topic/mississippi

I should have said primary school districts are black majorities. The following is from your link:

Until about 1940, blacks made up a majority of Mississippians. Due to the Great Migration the state's black population declined, but it has recently begun to increase, due mainly to a higher birthrate than the state average. In many of Mississippi's public school districts, a majority of students are black. ...... Blacks are a majority in the northwestern Yazoo Delta, the southwestern, and the central parts of the state.

[Odysseus]

Wait, what are people arguing about? Stuff like this degenerates fast here recently.

I think if people were really well versed on Anthropology, American history, world history, and world literature we would look at our conversations and understand how trite we have become. We struggle for relevancy where there is no question.

Gonzolays - You should get yourself an old hunting truck and put a confederate flag in the window and head up into the mountains looking for Elk. Nobody is going to mess with you. Either they will see the flag and just keep moving or they will assume you got that truck by force and will drive around you. It's all good man.

Symbols of freedom are not freedom. Symbols of oppression are not oppression.

Rhymes is like the guy in Saw. "I'd like to play a game."

[clean]

So, what do you think of the confederate flag, Rhymes? You keep popping up with these explosive threads yet you never give your opinion on the matter.

I know what you mean, the scenario you describe is reminiscent of your Black History Month thread:

What does it mean to you?

Discuss.

It apparently means that Gonzo is going to ask some goofy question under the guise of being provocative.

Guise? Please...

Gonzo's a douchebag.

He always emphasizes the differences between people instead of what we all have in common.

Why did Gonzo wait until the end of the month to pose this question?

Since you broached the topic, can you discuss how Black History Month has influenced your life?


http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=1492992#post1492992

[-Slap-]

Reconfirming again that Gonzo is nothing but a punk and a hypocrite.

[defenseman]

Those whose home of record falls in said state have the right to vote on whatever flag they desire above their governement buildings, post offices's, schools, etc...etc...etc... IF they vote to keep a flag in place, no one should force them to pull it down. It's their state, their elected officials, their vote and their choice. If they vote to keep the stars and bars/ confederate flag in place, then do so. I won't stop them, nor will I side/protest against it. their state, their call...dman

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Those whose home of record falls in said state have the right to vote on whatever flag they desire above their governement buildings, post offices's, schools, etc...etc...etc... IF they vote to keep a flag in place, no one should force them to pull it down. It's their state, their elected officials, their vote and their choice. If they vote to keep the stars and bars/ confederate flag in place, then do so. I won't stop them, nor will I side/protest against it. their state, their call...dmanNo, states don't have the right to fly the Confederate Navy Jack, the Nazi flag, the Jolly Roger, etc... over post offices, schools or any other taxpayer property that receives federal funds.

[defenseman]

No, states don't have the right to fly the Confederate Navy Jack, the Nazi flag, the Jolly Roger, etc... over post offices, schools or any other taxpayer property that receives federal funds.

then, pull their federal funding if it's law. It's no different than school districts who refuse to give 'senior school listings' to the armed services for prospecting with respect to recruiting for the all volunteer armed services. Let alone the fact, recruiters are required to have to have the same access to students as any college. Same amount of time, same amount of availability. They get their funding pulled if they don't comply...dman

[alkemical]

No i'm fine with HS students not having their info given to the Military.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

then, pull their federal funding if it's law. It's no different than school districts who refuse to give 'senior school listings' to the armed services for prospecting with respect to recruiting for the all volunteer armed services. Let alone the fact, recruiters are required to have to have the same access to students as any college. Same amount of time, same amount of availability. They get their funding pulled if they don't comply...dman
:wave:
How did you go so far off tangent in so little time? Who gives a sh*t if the military isn't allowed to harass our school kids?

[defenseman]

No i'm fine with HS students not having their info given to the Military.

Any high school, that recieves federal funding MUST comply. If not, they could have their federal funding pulled. It has happened and will continue to happen. If the majority decide not to play ball, then guess what, the "draft" will be instituted. We all know how much fun that is..dman

*All volunteer, is what it is. Without it, we have no armed forces.

[defenseman]

:wave:
How did you go so far off tangent in so little time? Who gives a sh*t if the military isn't allowed to harass our school kids?

It's no different than the right of choice, with ramifications and some sort of accountability attached to one's actions. A high school or school district that recieves funding must comply. A state who fly's the flag, against federal legislation, you pull their bucks. I have no problem with this method...dman

[alkemical]

Any high school, that recieves federal funding MUST comply. If not, they could have their federal funding pulled. It has happened and will continue to happen. If the majority decide not to play ball, then guess what, the "draft" will be instituted. We all know how much fun that is..dman

*All volunteer, is what it is. Without it, we have no armed forces.



The military receives my tax dollars as well, and i say no.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

It's no different than the right of choice, with ramifications and some sort of accountability attached to one's actions. A high school or school district that recieves funding must comply. A state who fly's the flag, against federal legislation, you pull their bucks. I have no problem with this method...dman
Geeezus. What are you talking about? (for example), Are you advocating flying the Mexican flag on post offices and schools, etc... because an area might have more registered Mexican voters than any other demographic group?

[defenseman]

The military receives my tax dollars as well, and i say no.

You don't legislate nor make decisions wrt the all "volunteer" armed forces. A section of the government does. When you are in a position of authority wrt legislation and manning of the armed forces, you can make that change. Until then, it's not changing anytime soon. that is of course unless your desire is to start the draft back up, which would happen if enough denied access in addition to their funding being pulled.....dman

[defenseman]

Geeezus. What are you talking about? (for example), Are you advocating flying the Mexican flag on post offices and schools, etc... because an area might have more registered Mexican voters than any other demographic group?

I advocate nothing. A state is made up of officially registered voters in that state, who pay taxes in their state. Their call, not mine. I probably wouldn't like some of the decisions, however they live with it, not me. Could care freaking less about it to be honest...dman

[Northman]

Geeezus. What are you talking about? (for example), Are you advocating flying the Mexican flag on post offices and schools, etc... because an area might have more registered Mexican voters than any other demographic group?

Would that really affect you emotionally?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Would that really affect you emotionally?
LOL
Emotionally? No, neither does your ignorant posts.:thumbsup:

[defenseman]

Would that really affect you emotionally?

It wouldn't me that's for sure. I'd freaking laugh at arnold trying to explain how the states name got changed to mexifornia...dman

*then again, I'm sure there are those in california who would love to secede from the union, just like a fringe group in hawaii who annually try to get the islands seceded. Little do they no, that without the military in hawaii, the islands would freaking flounder hopelessly...dman

[Northman]

LOL
Emotionally? No, neither does your ignorant posts.:thumbsup:



It was a simple question BB, nothing ignorant about it. You posed the thought and i asked you a question upon it. Would it bother you to have a mexican flag at a goverment installation. Pretty simple question if you ask me.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Those whose home of record falls in said state have the right to vote on whatever flag they desire above their governement buildings, post offices's, schools, etc...etc...etc... IF they vote to keep a flag in place, no one should force them to pull it down. It's their state, their elected officials, their vote and their choice. If they vote to keep the stars and bars/ confederate flag in place, then do so. I won't stop them, nor will I side/protest against it. their state, their call...dman
Federal law>State law..."states rights" was used to argue for secession the first time around. Time for SC to join the 21st century.

[defenseman]

Federal law>State law..."states rights" was used to argue for secession the first time around. Time for SC to join the 21st century.

whatever, their flag, their call as far as I'm concerned...dman

[Bronco_Beerslug]

It was a simple question BB, nothing ignorant about it. You posed the thought and i asked you a question upon it. Would it bother you to have a mexican flag at a goverment installation. Pretty simple question if you ask me.Uh, flying any other flags over U.S. government buildings (funded by U.S. taxpayers) would "bother" most people so why would you ask such an ignorant question?

[alkemical]

You don't legislate nor make decisions wrt the all "volunteer" armed forces. A section of the government does. When you are in a position of authority wrt legislation and manning of the armed forces, you can make that change. Until then, it's not changing anytime soon. that is of course unless your desire is to start the draft back up, which would happen if enough denied access in addition to their funding being pulled.....dman

Ah yes i do - because i could in theory (if i so wanted too) organize a grass roots campaign to have those politicans make that change. Also when automatically giving information out, when it's snuck into an education bill - is underhanded and sneaky (no child left behind act) - so ya -

Maybe you should read up on that constitution you are supposed to protect as well.

[footstepsfrom#27]

whatever, their flag, their call as far as I'm concerned...dman
Let's let Whitlock decide.

[Northman]

Uh, flying any other flags over U.S. government buildings (funded by U.S. taxpayers) would "bother" most people so why would you ask such an ignorant question?


I pay taxes but it wouldnt bother me its just a flag. It would be trivial to get all up in arms about something like that. We promote freedom in the states and the sharing of different cultures. I would have no problem with other flags being hung at goverment installations. But, i guess im more open to overall unity more than other people.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Federal law>State law..."states rights" was used to argue for secession the first time around. Time for SC to join the 21st century.

whatever, their flag, their call as far as I'm concerned...dman
It wouldn't me that's for sure. I'd freaking laugh at arnold trying to explain how the states name got changed to mexifornia...dman
dman

When did you change your tune on this dman?


(the dman commenting on the hoisting of the Mexican flag over a CA post office (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=45800&page=2&highlight=mexican+flag+post+office))

Really, really sad. the post office is a FEDERAL BLDG. Not just any other bldg out there. This will come to a head, somewhere in this country, and unfortunately , people are going to get hurt. However, this type of thing MUST be stopped. This country is NOT THEIRS, it's ours. I could give two s*&ts what they think or say...dman

[defenseman]

Ah yes i do - because i could in theory (if i so wanted too) organize a grass roots campaign to have those politicans make that change. Also when automatically giving information out, when it's snuck into an education bill - is underhanded and sneaky (no child left behind act) - so ya -

Maybe you should read up on that constitution you are supposed to protect as well.

Have at it, organize your grass roots campaign and get it changed through the proper channels. Then, be sure to be at the press conference when the 'draft' is put back into law. Wouldn't bother me one iota to bring it back if conditions warranted it...dman

[footstepsfrom#27]

But, i guess im more open to overall unity more than other people.
Hilarious!

[alkemical]

Have at it, organize your grass roots campaign and get it changed through the proper channels. Then, be sure to be at the press conference when the 'draft' is put back into law. Wouldn't bother me one iota to bring it back if conditions warranted it...dman

Well i can also show how the draft would be ineffective due to how each Presidental admin cuts benifits and adds new duties & burdens to a soldier. Of course the draft wouldn't be needed if we fought wars that had an identifiable objective to be completed, instead of an open ended politically managed war by proxy - but hey - that's just me.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Of course the draft wouldn't be needed if we fought wars that had an identifiable objective to be completed, instead of an open ended politically managed war by proxy...
Pfffttt...that's so over rated. ^5

[defenseman]

Well i can also show how the draft would be ineffective due to how each Presidental admin cuts benifits and adds new duties & burdens to a soldier. Of course the draft wouldn't be needed if we fought wars that had an identifiable objective to be completed, instead of an open ended politically managed war by proxy - but hey - that's just me.

the ALL VOLUNTEER armed forces MUST have senior class listings from all public high schools that recieve federal funding, simple as that. Without it, there would, within two to three years, be a disastrous problem with all facets of the military. It's tough enough getting recruits considering that only a small percentage can qualify for the active duty military to begin with. Then again, I believe you'll see the military leaning alot more heavily on the reserve component in the the next ten years or so...dman

[alkemical]

the ALL VOLUNTEER armed forces MUST have senior class listings from all public high schools that recieve federal funding, simple as that. Without it, there would, within two to three years, be a disastrous problem with all facets of the military. It's tough enough getting recruits considering that only a small percentage can qualify for the active duty military to begin with. Then again, I believe you'll see the military leaning alot more heavily on the reserve component in the the next ten years or so...dman

Huh, i guess the reduction of benifits and a badly managed war aren't good enough selling points for someone to enlist....

[defenseman]

Huh, i guess the reduction of benifits and a badly managed war aren't good enough selling points for someone to enlist....

Don't kid yourself. Enlistments are just fine right now, Officer programs, especially in the navy are doing well also.....dman

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Don't kid yourself. Enlistments are just fine right now, Officer programs, especially in the navy are doing well also.....dmanEnlistments are down, as everyone knows (for the soldiers who actually have to fight Bush's war) but back on topic, when did you change your tune on flags other than American being hoisted on government buildings?

[sirhcyennek81]

Huh, i guess the reduction of benifits and a badly managed war aren't good enough selling points for someone to enlist....


You would think with the Democrats in power in the house and senate, they would find the ability or the time to increase benefits to the military, seeing how much they care. If they can find the cash to aid salmon farmers in northern california, surely they can throw a few million at Military Veterans...


:Broncos:

[alkemical]

Don't kid yourself. Enlistments are just fine right now, Officer programs, especially in the navy are doing well also.....dman

yeah that's why they are offering all time high enlistment/re-enlistment bonus'

[TailgateNut]

Don't kid yourself. Enlistments are just fine right now, Officer programs, especially in the navy are doing well also.....dman

More horse****. Enlistment criteria have eroded and qualifications of new recruits have also.
The desertion numbers are way up, and we are paying some of the highest incentives to keep soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines in uniform.

I for one do not blame them.

If we continue to wear out our present military, we will need to reinstate a draft in order to "refresh" our troops. Some of who have been pounding the ground in Iraq on more than one deployment. Their tours have been involuntarilly extended and the stop loss BS doesn't generally boost the morale.

Thanks Bush! You are the biggest fvck up the US has seen in quite some time.

[alkemical]

You would think with the Democrats in power in the house and senate, they would find the ability or the time to increase benefits to the military, seeing how much they care. If they can find the cash to aid salmon farmers in northern california, surely they can throw a few million at Military Veterans...


:Broncos:

That's because they don't care.

[defenseman]

Enlistments are down, as everyone knows (for the soldiers who actually have to fight Bush's war) but back on topic, when did you change your tune on flags other than American being hoisted on government buildings?

Navy enlistments are just fine.......dman

[defenseman]

More horse****. Enlistment criteria have eroded and qualifications of new recruits have also.
The desertion numbers are way up, and we are paying some of the highest incentives to keep soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines in uniform.

I for one do not blame them.

If we continue to wear out our present military, we will need to reinstate a draft in order to "refresh" our troops. Some of who have been pounding the ground in Iraq on more than one deployment. Their tours have been involuntarilly extended and the stop loss BS doesn't generally boost the morale.

Thanks Bush! You are the biggest f*** up the US has seen in quite some time.

Not in the navy. No need to lower standards..dman

[TailgateNut]

Navy enlistments are just fine.......dman

Because you primadonnas never get exposed to the "dirty" aspects of war.

If the Army continues to grab Semen and Airmen to help shore up for their shortages in personnell, you'll see a drop in the enlistments and re-enlistments.

[defenseman]

More horse****. Enlistment criteria have eroded and qualifications of new recruits have also.
The desertion numbers are way up, and we are paying some of the highest incentives to keep soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines in uniform.

I for one do not blame them.

If we continue to wear out our present military, we will need to reinstate a draft in order to "refresh" our troops. Some of who have been pounding the ground in Iraq on more than one deployment. Their tours have been involuntarilly extended and the stop loss BS doesn't generally boost the morale.

Thanks Bush! You are the biggest f*** up the US has seen in quite some time.

For the right job, you are correct. Re-enlistment bonus for an E9 (Master Chief) SEAL Operator is 250,000....dman

[JLesSPE]

I've never heard anyone make a valid argument as to why it's still acceptable (i'd like someone to try, honestly). There's always gonna be those rednecks and redneck wannabees that will have it on their trucks, but above a state capital?

I have one in my room, on my desktop, on my phone, in my office at work....but that's it. So you can imagine I get a lot of comments. Here's my "argument". The first thing that gets brought up is racism and people want to know why I choose to display a racist symbol.

The confederate flag has nothing to do with racism. It represents a part of our southern heritage, a time in history when that flag represented where we, our fathers, and grandfathers were born and raised. It's what was flown during the civil war to represent us.

Now people always argue that while this is true, the civil war was fought over slavery and that the south was fighting to keep our slaves.

The civil war was fought over state's rights. We didn't want to be told when and where to sell our cash crops and how much to tax. Southern farmers were being taxed so much they were having to close down their farms. AND less than 5% of southerners had slaves, and there are documented cases where prominent southern black farmers owned african slaves. So it's neither a slavery issue, or a white/black issue.

The one thing I give them is that racist organizations misuse the rebel flag symbol to promote their ideals. That's not my fault, my family's fault, or the south's fault. Go after those idiots.

I don't know if it should fly above a state building or not. It was used during a time with the south seceded from the union so it might not even make sense. On the other hand, it does have a significant meaning in any ex-confederate state. I'm from Texas and Lord knows we like to be different. This is just one more thing that seperates us from the damn yanks. :D

[defenseman]

Because you primadonnas never get exposed to the "dirty" aspects of war.

If the Army continues to grab Semen and Airmen to help shore up for their shortages in personnell, you'll see a drop in the enlistments and re-enlistments.

Really. I'll have to hook you up with some of my SEAL, EOD, Diver and SWCC buddies. Let alone the corpsman patching up marines in the FMF. That's not counting of course the countless boardings by naval personnel of suspected ships, etc....yeah, the navy doesn't do anything. You know better than that...dman

*Yeah, they aren't tough like when you were in, heard it all before.

[defenseman]

I have one in my room, on my desktop, on my phone, in my office at work....but that's it. So you can imagine I get a lot of comments. Here's my "argument". The first thing that gets brought up is racism and people want to know why I choose to display a racist symbol.

The confederate flag has nothing to do with racism. It represents a part of our southern heritage, a time in history when that flag represented where we, our fathers, and grandfathers were born and raised. It's what was flown during the civil war to represent us.

Now people always argue that while this is true, the civil war was fought over slavery and that the south was fighting to keep our slaves.

The civil war was fought over state's rights. We didn't want to be told when and where to sell our cash crops and how much to tax. Southern farmers were being taxed so much they were having to close down their farms. AND less than 5% of southerners had slaves, and there are documented cases where prominent southern black farmers owned african slaves. So it's neither a slavery issue, or a white/black issue.

The one thing I give them is that racist organizations misuse the rebel flag symbol to promote their ideals. That's not my fault, my family's fault, or the south's fault. Go after those idiots.

I don't know if it should fly above a state building or not. It was used during a time with the south seceded from the union so it might not even make sense. On the other hand, it does have a significant meaning in any ex-confederate state. I'm from Texas and Lord knows we like to be different. This is just one more thing that seperates us from the damn yanks. :D

I personally don't care. If the state's voters say it should be flown, let it fly. I have no problem with that....dman

[TailgateNut]

For the right job, you are correct. Re-enlistment bonus for an E9 (Master Chief) SEAL Operator is 250,000....dman


It's not just for the "right job", it's across the board. More and more officers are doing their minimum time and getting the fvck out. Enlisted personell are seeing the some of the highest bonuses EVER!

It's breaking the bank!


Thanks Bush, You moron!

[TailgateNut]

Really. I'll have to hook you up with some of my SEAL, EOD, Diver and SWCC buddies. Let alone the corpsman patching up marines in the FMF. That's not counting of course the countless boardings by naval personnel of suspected ships, etc....yeah, the navy doesn't do anything. You know better than that...dman

*Yeah, they aren't tough like when you were in, heard it all before.

Take the Special forces out of the equation, and you don't have "a leg to stand on", at least in comparison to the Army and Marines.

Nes Pas?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

The confederate flag has nothing to do with racism. It represents a part of our southern heritage, a time in history when that flag represented where we, our fathers, and grandfathers were born and raised. It's what was flown during the civil war to represent us.

Now people always argue that while this is true, the civil war was fought over slavery and that the south was fighting to keep our slaves.

The civil war was fought over state's rights. We didn't want to be told when and where to sell our cash crops and how much to tax. Southern farmers were being taxed so much they were having to close down their farms. AND less than 5% of southerners had slaves, and there are documented cases where prominent southern black farmers owned african slaves. So it's neither a slavery issue, or a white/black issue.

The one thing I give them is that racist organizations misuse the rebel flag symbol to promote their ideals. That's not my fault, my family's fault, or the south's fault. Go after those idiots.

Uh, yeah it is...


Alexander Hamilton Stephens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Stephens) (February 11, 1812 – March 4, 1883) was Vice President of the Confederate States of America during the American Civil War.
On the brink of the Civil War, Stephens gave his famous Cornerstone Speech in Savannah, Georgia on March 21, 1861. In it he reaffirmed that "African Slavery … was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution." He went on to assert that the then-prevailing "assumption of the equality of races" was "fundamentally wrong." "Our new [Confederate] government is founded … upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery—subordination to the superior race—is his natural and normal condition", and also: "With us, all of the white race, however high or low, rich or poor, are equal in the eye of the law. Not so with the negro. Subordination is his place. He, by nature, or by the curse against Canaan, is fitted for that condition which he occupies in our system."

The Confederate Flag is the symbol of a political movement in reaction to the election of Lincoln.


.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I personally don't care. If the state's voters say it should be flown, let it fly. I have no problem with that....dmanDepending on what day it is? Or is you just care if it's the Mexican flag hoisted over a U.S. post office?

[defenseman]

It's not just for the "right job", it's across the board. More and more officers are doing their minimum time and getting the f*** out. Enlisted personell are seeing the some of the highest bonuses EVER!

It's breaking the bank!


Thanks Bush, You moron!

You are dead wrong on this. Provide me with data showing where the navy provides a huge bonus for across the board in the navy. I'm still in, I know what all ratings get, and what paygrade garners the big bonuses. Intel, spec war, nukes round out the big bonuses. No one else for the most part. MA's get a reasonable bonus, but not much to speak of. In short, to say across the board is just plain wrong. the only ratings that get the big bonuses are sorely needed at this point in time. Numerous ratings get a big NADA to be honest. Demand driven system. ....dman

[defenseman]

Depending on what day it is? Or is you just care if it's the Mexican flag hoisted over a U.S. post office?

IF, the mexifornia residents vote it in, and it is displayed properly with respect to the american flag, I could care less. Would I like it? Nope. Do I care at this point? Nope. Their vote, their choice. ...dman

[defenseman]

Take the Special forces out of the equation, and you don't have "a leg to stand on", at least in comparison to the Army and Marines.

Nes Pas?

Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. Define special forces? ........dman

*you and every other american would be very surprised who is involved with the prosecution of this war day to day...

[Bronco_Beerslug]

IF, the mexifornia residents vote it in, and it is displayed properly with respect to the american flag, I could care less. Would I like it? Nope. Do I care at this point? Nope. Their vote, their choice. ...dmanAh, OK, so you have changed your views in regard what should be flown over government buildings.

[TailgateNut]

Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. Define special forces? ........dman

*you and every other american would be very surprised who is involved with the prosecution of this war day to day...


Oh that's right, I completely forgot you are the only one who is privy to this info.
Some of us just aren't "know it all's". When you get a minute to get off your high horse read last weeks Time article about the issue and then get back to me.

Sorry, I don't have the time to find a link. It's the issue prior to the one with Imus on the cover.

[sirhcyennek81]

Oh that's right, I completely forgot you are the only one who is privy to this info.
Some of us just aren't "know it all's". When you get a minute to get off your high horse read last weeks Time article about the issue and then get back to me.

Sorry, I don't have the time to find a link. It's the issue prior to the one with Imus on the cover.


You mean the same Time & Newsweek that said they were flushing Koran's down the toilet at Gitmo, sparking Islamic riots throughout the middle east and SE asia killing people? That time and newsweek? They sure were right about that...

:Broncos:

[TailgateNut]

You mean the same Time & Newsweek that said they were flushing Koran's down the toilet at Gitmo, sparking Islamic riots throughout the middle east and SE asia killing people? That time and newsweek? They sure were right about that...

:Broncos:



Oh I forgot I need to find an impartial article by Faux News to be able to use it for the Kool Aid Crowd!

[sirhcyennek81]

Oh I forgot I need to find an impartial article by Faux News to be able to use it for the Kool Aid Crowd!


I see, if its a singular conservative network, blast it as not a viable news source. You could use CBS...but they manufacture documents...maybe NBC...but they called the 2000 election 6 hours before the results came in. How about the NYTimes...oh, wait...they informed the world that US Agencies were monitoring offshore transactions to potential terror groups...makes you wonder why our media is so intent on us losing the war, and humiliating any government official. Why is it that you automatically know Cheney owns stock in Haliburton, but dont know that Boxer's husband owns construction companies that received government contracts to work on military bases around the world while she was on the Veteran Affairs committee? How's the kool aid man?


:Broncos:

[defenseman]

Oh that's right, I completely forgot you are the only one who is privy to this info.
Some of us just aren't "know it all's". When you get a minute to get off your high horse read last weeks Time article about the issue and then get back to me.

Sorry, I don't have the time to find a link. It's the issue prior to the one with Imus on the cover.

Know it all? Why no, not hardly. Know about this subject in very good detail? Why yes I do. Next....dman

*I'll read the article and tell you if it's worth reading or not. Fair enough. I'm guessing not though.

[defenseman]

I see, if its a singular conservative network, blast it as not a viable news source. You could use CBS...but they manufacture documents...maybe NBC...but they called the 2000 election 6 hours before the results came in. How about the NYTimes...oh, wait...they informed the world that US Agencies were monitoring offshore transactions to potential terror groups...makes you wonder why our media is so intent on us losing the war, and humiliating any government official. Why is it that you automatically know Cheney owns stock in Haliburton, but dont know that Boxer's husband owns construction companies that received government contracts to work on military bases around the world while she was on the Veteran Affairs committee? How's the kool aid man?


:Broncos:

No wondering there, they hate GW and will do anything to ensure he gets tossed. Funny how you've not heard a word since boxer resigned from the committee. Guess she wasn't "republican" enough to warrant unabashed "special treatment" from a majority of the networks...dman

Means to an ends media, and alot of the libs have bought in to their mantra.

[defenseman]

You mean the same Time & Newsweek that said they were flushing Koran's down the toilet at Gitmo, sparking Islamic riots throughout the middle east and SE asia killing people? That time and newsweek? They sure were right about that...

:Broncos:

Yeah, like I said, I'm guessing the article is garbage wrt the "facts" around the situation, but I'll read it and let you know...dman

[defenseman]

Ah, OK, so you have changed your views in regard what should be flown over government buildings.

In some respects, I have. NOT changed though, with respect to properly displaying the american flag. That I will take issue with if done incorrectly or disrespectfully...dman

[bendog]

How quickly you guys forget impeachment. But for the media it isn't partisanship .... It's money. Clav's thread on the "other board" is well worth the read.

[-Slap-]

Because you primadonnas never get exposed to the "dirty" aspects of war.

If the Army continues to grab Semen and Airmen to help shore up for their shortages in personnell, you'll see a drop in the enlistments and re-enlistments.

I'm ready to contribute some semen to the war effort. I'm going to need some help from one of the WACs, though.

[TailgateNut]

I'm ready to contribute some semen to the war effort. I'm going to need some help from one of the WACs, though.

I intentionally misspelled that to irk Dman. It's just a word game between branches!

Dman is this boards' resident "BubbleBlower".

[defenseman]

I intentionally misspelled that to irk Dman. It's just a word game between branches!

Dman is this boards' resident "BubbleBlower".

Caught that, nice try. Not to be irked these days, too freaking "short" to worry about that stuff..dman

[TailgateNut]

Caught that, nice try. Not to be irked these days, too freaking "short" to worry about that stuff..dman


Better watch out, they might try to extend your "Tour". Oh, I forgot they only need to involuntarily extend tours of those who serve in the line of fire.

Where's that stick pokin' smilie when you need it?

[houghtam]

then, pull their federal funding if it's law. It's no different than school districts who refuse to give 'senior school listings' to the armed services for prospecting with respect to recruiting for the all volunteer armed services. Let alone the fact, recruiters are required to have to have the same access to students as any college. Same amount of time, same amount of availability. They get their funding pulled if they don't comply...dman

So speaking of pulling funding, would you be okay with the Democrats pulling the funding from the war? I mean, hey! The people have spoken. They legally elected people to change the status quo, right?

[bendog]

OK, as the only poster here currently residing in the magnolia state (yeah I got a big ass damn magnolia in my front yard!), I'll chime in on the topic. Personally, I don't care much either way if the stars and bars are in a state flag, or fly over some building. The civil war reinactors have my deepest appreciation for trying to keep an era of our history alive. People were self-reliant. Literacy was nearly universal (unless you were an african american or perhaps in an area formerly known as part of Mexico, but even then, I'd suspect literacy was the norm.) And, men did not avoid the responsibility of fatherhood. But, the sons of confederate veterans do tend to conveniently avoid some history that is unpleasant to them. Their reasons are not just hypocritical, though. The vast majority of people in the confederacy did not own slaves. They were subsistance farmers. The civil war was, and was not, about slavery.

If I were to get annoyed at those who like the stars and bars, I think I'd have to be equally critical of black history month. Public education largely ignores the history of the confederate south, and the social distinctions between the north and the south. Public education largely ignored african-americans, at least until the 1970s. Our historical understanding of Africa is a joke, too.

PS, we love tourist dollars, so I should add that the state is trying to make a park on the site in Natchez where slave families were broken up and "sold down the river." The move is led by african americans. And the state wants to buy the store where Emmitt Till supposedly wolf-whistled at a white women, leading to his torture and murder, but the owner is trying to hold the state up.

[footstepsfrom#27]

The confederate flag has nothing to do with racism.
Poppycock.
This is just one more thing that seperates us from the damn yanks. :D
Hilarious!

[bendog]

Poppycock.

Hilarious!

I wish I could disagree, but considering those who put the most stock in the stars and bars choose to ignore the ugliness of african american's treatment prior to emancipation, I can't. But, I don't think it's the same simmering hatred of white supremicists. Perhaps more in the vein as Farrakhan. I don't think he would care one way or another about white people so long as he and his followers never had to see or hear from them.

[defenseman]

Better watch out, they might try to extend your "Tour". Oh, I forgot they only need to involuntarily extend tours of those who serve in the line of fire.

Where's that stick pokin' smilie when you need it?

I've done my time in the line of fire as well as others here I'm sure. I have no problem sauntering off into the sunset, retired, with a nice healthy retirement check every month......stick poking doesn't work anymore there nut. Way past that..dman

[defenseman]

So speaking of pulling funding, would you be okay with the Democrats pulling the funding from the war? I mean, hey! The people have spoken. They legally elected people to change the status quo, right?

IF they have the cojones to step up and take "all responsibility" for de-funding the war, have at it. I'd have more respect for them if they did to be honest. You are right, the people have spoken and the dems haven't done a damn thing to date. Guess they were saying what they needed to say to get elected and at the eleventh hour, left their nerve at the door. There is your Status quo..dman

[GonzoLays]

Can we officially name RymesayerDU the a-hole of the board?

No ****. I called him out earlier and he wouldn't even respond. He use to be okay, but now? Whatever.

[defenseman]

No ****. I called him out earlier and he wouldn't even respond. He use to be okay, but now? Whatever.

Where did you call him out?...dman

[cutthemdown]

Let's a make a new flag that will appease all the little pansies on this board. We will make it about the same size, but all white. It will look something like this.

[alkemical]

Let's a make a new flag that will appease all the little pansies on this board. We will make it about the same size, but all white. It will look something like this.

Lots of people waive that flag w/their rights.....

[bendog]

I've always wanted the stars and bars on my mirror to shave with every morning - thinking about the Rev. Al's and Jesse's and local politicians, but my daughter would rat me out to the PC police at her school, and some of the black kids there are really nice kids

[Bronco Bob]

The South lost. Get over it.

[Bronco Bob]

:giggle:

Wow, are you going to cry when they take your traitor's colors down? Do you fly a North Vietnamese and Nazi flag too?

Incredible dumbass indeed.

Didn't the North Vietnamese win? A more valid analogy would be the Hammer
and Sickle flag of the ex-Soviet Union, if we want to talk about the flags of the losers.

[broncocalijohn]

Would you fly a KC Chiefs flag? Now, there is a loser if you want one.

[Bronco Bob]

If you want to go with that parallel, son, then the flag of the United States of America stands for racists and bigots, too.

It was my underestanding that the flag of the United States represented the
side that had as one of its goals to abolish slaverly, where-as the flag
of the confederacy represented the side that wanted to keep slavery.
I fail to see your point as to how the US flag represents the bigots.

[Bronco Bob]

It's just a flag. Ignore it if you don't care for it.

So is the Hammer and Sickle flag. So it the Nazi swastika flag.
Are you telling me that no one one be offended by one of those
if it were flying on a government building somewhere in the USA?

[houghtam]

IF they have the cojones to step up and take "all responsibility" for de-funding the war, have at it. I'd have more respect for them if they did to be honest. You are right, the people have spoken and the dems haven't done a damn thing to date. Guess they were saying what they needed to say to get elected and at the eleventh hour, left their nerve at the door. There is your Status quo..dman

We're three months into a two-year term and you're talking about them not doing anything? Just wait.

[Broncos_OTM]

No, it represents traitors and enemies of the United States of America.lol look at your avatar... ;)

[Broncos_OTM]

i dont know if you guys knew this but 2 percent of the population owned 93 percent of the slaves. i am a proud southern boy. yes you can say my side lost the war but that is my heretige. you cannot take that from me. i do not hate blacks or any other race. to me its not even about that. as my family was all rebs. i am proud of my southern hereitage and i will honor the flag of my fore fathers. shot it hangs off my front porch. and i dont know if any of yall know where petersberg virginia. but i have never received anything negative about it. its something you yankees will never understand

[Broncos_OTM]

There is no legitimate reason to fly that flag. It represents oppression, nothing honorable. You don't see Germans hanging the Nazi flag over their state houses. I mean, it is part of their "heritage", right?



By the way, where they moved the flag in SC is actually more visible now than it was above the state house. Anyone driving in downtown Columbia can't miss it.i guess you missed that it is ILLEGAL In germany to have anything to do with Nazism. and i mean ANYTHING

[Tredici]

i dont know if you guys knew this but 2 percent of the population owned 93 percent of the slaves. i am a proud southern boy. yes you can say my side lost the war but that is my heretige. you cannot take that from me. i do not hate blacks or any other race. to me its not even about that. as my family was all rebs. i am proud of my southern hereitage and i will honor the flag of my fore fathers. shot it hangs off my front porch. and i dont know if any of yall know where petersberg virginia. but i have never received anything negative about it. its something you yankees will never understand

It is hard for Yankees to understand how a flag with a brief history of 1861-1865 could be considered as anything as much other than the symbol of a defeated cause.

I would suggest the flag of your fore fathers had Stars and Stripes. And so does yours. There is no Confederacy and in no way does that diminish your Southern heritage. However there are those who feel that flag diminishes theirs.

No easy solution.

[defenseman]

We're three months into a two-year term and you're talking about them not doing anything? Just wait.

And what happened to the "first 100 hours"?????? that's exactly right, just wait, and wait, and wait, and wait some more, and how about some "wait" with your coffee. I'll believe it when I see it. Lots of posturing and playing political russian roulette with the other side of the aisle is all I'm seeing right now...dman

[Bronco_Beerslug]

And what happened to the "first 100 hours"?????? that's exactly right, just wait, and wait, and wait, and wait some more, and how about some "wait" with your coffee. I'll believe it when I see it. Lots of posturing and playing political russian roulette with the other side of the aisle is all I'm seeing right now...dmanAnd just what did you see get done during the last 6 years? How come you never b*tched about that?

[Bronco Bob]

And what happened to the "first 100 hours"?

You tell us. What did Congress propose they were going to do the first
100 hours. Which of their proposals did they pass and which are still pending?

[bendog]

I thought they passed all they said they'd pass. My gripe is that since then, all they've done is try to score points, and hold themselves in some unity, on Iraq. Meanwhile, issues like the cap on payroll taxes and specific limits on the tax cuts for those making 250 and even 500K per year haven't even been addressed.

Medicare is going to require we look to a single payor system, with govt deciding how much gnp we devote to healthcare. It's inevitable. I can understand that this issue is not addressable until Bushii is gone. But holding the gops feet to the fire on the largesse given to the richest should the idiot DimoRats job one. But typically they seem to be limiting themselves to being a one trick donkey.

[bendog]

Take this you damn Yankees. And I symbolically pee in your saltpeter!

http://www.amazon.com/South-Right-James-Ronald-Kennedy/dp/1565540247

[Dudeskey]

And what happened to the "first 100 hours"?????? that's exactly right, just wait, and wait, and wait, and wait some more, and how about some "wait" with your coffee. I'll believe it when I see it. Lots of posturing and playing political russian roulette with the other side of the aisle is all I'm seeing right now...dman

I sincerely hope that was just a feeble attempt at humor...

http://www.congress.org/congressorg/issues/votes

[Spider]

And what happened to the "first 100 hours"?????? that's exactly right, just wait, and wait, and wait, and wait some more, and how about some "wait" with your coffee. I'll believe it when I see it. Lots of posturing and playing political russian roulette with the other side of the aisle is all I'm seeing right now...dman

I never thought I would say this , D Man you and me need to have a talk about Drugs , and how they effect you ....... you missed alot ;D

[Rascal]

I know what you mean, the scenario you describe is reminiscent of your Black History Month thread:

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=1492992#post1492992

LOL!!!!

REP!!!

[Steve Sewell]

I'm all for hillbillies flying their hillbilly flag. It's their right and more power to them.

And besides, what kind of perception do you have of a person flying a flag that is no longer relevant and associated with racism (rightly or wrongly). Not flattering to say the least. You are screwing yourself basically.

I think that flag's symbolism today, is not what it used to be. When it was first flown back in the Civil War days, it represented the southern states that seceded from the union. Nowadays, in my opinion, the perception is that it represents slavery and racism. I know some will try to argue against that, but the perception is just that.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I think that flag's symbolism today, is not what it used to be. When it was first flown back in the Civil War days, it represented the southern states that seceded from the union. Nowadays, in my opinion, the perception is that it represents slavery and racism. I know some will try to argue against that, but the perception is just that.And why did they do that?



Alexander Hamilton Stephens (February 11, 1812 – March 4, 1883) was Vice President of the Confederate States of America during the American Civil War.
On the brink of the Civil War, Stephens gave his famous Cornerstone Speech in Savannah, Georgia on March 21, 1861. In it he reaffirmed that "African Slavery … was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution." He went on to assert that the then-prevailing "assumption of the equality of races" was "fundamentally wrong." "Our new [Confederate] government is founded … upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery—subordination to the superior race—is his natural and normal condition", and also: "With us, all of the white race, however high or low, rich or poor, are equal in the eye of the law. Not so with the negro. Subordination is his place. He, by nature, or by the curse against Canaan, is fitted for that condition which he occupies in our system."

[defenseman]

And why did they do that?



Alexander Hamilton Stephens (February 11, 1812 – March 4, 1883) was Vice President of the Confederate States of America during the American Civil War.

Their state, their vote, fly what you will. Ensure though, the american flag is displayed properly wrt the state flag...dman

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Their state, their vote, fly what you will. Ensure though, the american flag is displayed properly wrt the state flag...dman
Uh, I asked (see bolded) why the south seceded. And the answer (one major reason) is they considered Blacks as less than human beings. But I understand you jumping onboard with the Confederate Navy Jack flag wavers.

[bendog]

Uh, I asked (see bolded) why the south seceded. And the answer (one major reason) is they considered Blacks as less than human beings. But I understand you jumping onboard with the Confederate Navy Jack flag wavers.

I would grant you that the elite of the South wanted to keep their slaves, though the vast maj of southern soldiers didn't want slaves, they just didn't want them all being free to compete with them for limited resources in subsistance farming. However, I've never seen support for the notion that the majority of Union soldiers were fighting for the rights of the slaves to be free. Lincoln clearly said he'd accept slavery to save the union.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I would grant you that the elite of the South wanted to keep their slaves, though the vast maj of southern soldiers didn't want slaves, they just didn't want them all being free to compete with them for limited resources in subsistance farming. However, I've never seen support for the notion that the majority of Union soldiers were fighting for the rights of the slaves to be free. Lincoln clearly said he'd accept slavery to save the union.The South didn't buy it and that's one reason why they broke away (when Lincoln was elected).

[defenseman]

Uh, I asked (see bolded) why the south seceded. And the answer (one major reason) is they considered Blacks as less than human beings. But I understand you jumping onboard with the Confederate Navy Jack flag wavers.

I personally would not have sided with the confederacy, though my family tree is definitely from the fringe south, some from scotland/south africa..dman

[defenseman]

I would grant you that the elite of the South wanted to keep their slaves, though the vast maj of southern soldiers didn't want slaves, they just didn't want them all being free to compete with them for limited resources in subsistance farming. However, I've never seen support for the notion that the majority of Union soldiers were fighting for the rights of the slaves to be free. Lincoln clearly said he'd accept slavery to save the union.

Interesting. Gods and generals definitely depicts a different take than yours. I am sort of interested in this, since much an uproar has been made in the past to pay the decendants of 'slaves' reparations. Not a chance in hell..dman

[bendog]

The draft riots in NYC after the emancipation proclamation.

I like the Killer Angels (required reading at West Pt) where a guy in the Iron Brigade, which is about to be decimated with 75% casualties at Gettysburg, asks a captured Reb, "what are you guys fighten fer." Reb says, "We're fighten fer our rats." Union guys look at each other confused. "Rats, why do they wanna fight fer rats?"

I'm a little lost by the question, because I distrust the scholarship of Gods and Generals and have never read the series. Are you asking why I think most southerners weren't fighting so maybe 2-3% of the richest guys could keep a bunch of slaves? Not to be rude to you because you may never have considered it before, but that notion would be absurd. Why would guys die for the elite? They wouldn't. Moreover, there are multiple collections of letters available via google, such as this. These men were fighting a northern invasion.

http://members.aol.com/SHelveston/reeslets.html

Or is it perhaps whether union "grunts" were motivated to free the slaves. I've always assumed some were. But hardly all.

The riots were fed by class divisions, noted historian Philip S. Paludan: "Frustration over economic hardship fed, and was fed by, Democratic allegiance. Already suspicious of the nativist origins of many Republicans, immigrant workers in large cities that made life harder for them. The huge number of excise taxes fell most heavily on wage earners. Increased immigration, supported by Lincoln and his party, increased job competition; the leader of the iron workers union called the idea 'infamous. Even more of an outrage was the use of employers by black workers, sometimes to break strikes, other times simply to work for lower wages."11 The structure of the draft also contributed to class resentment. Wealthy New Yorkers could afford to pay the $300 which the draft law stipulated at the price to avoid conscription. But poor New Yorkers could not afford that price. The New York Herald editorialized that "the draft was an unfair one, inasmuch as the rich could avoid it by paying $300, while the poor man, who was without 'the greenbacks,' was compelled to go to the war."12
http://www.mrlincolnandnewyork.org/inside.asp?ID=92&subjectID=4

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/currents/20070415_How_Civil_War_soldiers_saw_slavery.html

In short, from what I've read, slavery was on everyone's mind during the civil war. Definitely in hte South, the fear was being overwhelmed by freed slaves. And that was not irrational, as reconstruction and the rise of the Klan showed. In the North, emancipation had it's supporters, but the notion of holding the union together, and the class divisions of the South being more caste oriented with large plantations passed from generations, and the North being a. more open to farmers moving west, and b. workers achieving wages in the coming industrial revolution being violently opposed to an aristocracy, which the South undoubtedly had.

[defenseman]

The draft riots in NYC after the emancipation proclamation.

I like the Killer Angels (required reading at West Pt) where a guy in the Iron Brigade, which is about to be decimated with 75% casualties at Gettysburg, asks a captured Reb, "what are you guys fighten fer." Reb says, "We're fighten fer our rats." Union guys look at each other confused. "Rats, why do they wanna fight fer rats?"

I'm a little lost by the question, because I distrust the scholarship of Gods and Generals and have never read the series. Are you asking why I think most southerners weren't fighting so maybe 2-3% of the richest guys could keep a bunch of slaves? Not to be rude to you because you may never have considered it before, but that notion would be absurd. Why would guys die for the elite? They wouldn't. Moreover, there are multiple collections of letters available via google, such as this. These men were fighting a northern invasion.

http://members.aol.com/SHelveston/reeslets.html

Or is it perhaps whether union "grunts" were motivated to free the slaves. I've always assumed some were. But hardly all.

The riots were fed by class divisions, noted historian Philip S. Paludan: "Frustration over economic hardship fed, and was fed by, Democratic allegiance. Already suspicious of the nativist origins of many Republicans, immigrant workers in large cities that made life harder for them. The huge number of excise taxes fell most heavily on wage earners. Increased immigration, supported by Lincoln and his party, increased job competition; the leader of the iron workers union called the idea 'infamous. Even more of an outrage was the use of employers by black workers, sometimes to break strikes, other times simply to work for lower wages."11 The structure of the draft also contributed to class resentment. Wealthy New Yorkers could afford to pay the $300 which the draft law stipulated at the price to avoid conscription. But poor New Yorkers could not afford that price. The New York Herald editorialized that "the draft was an unfair one, inasmuch as the rich could avoid it by paying $300, while the poor man, who was without 'the greenbacks,' was compelled to go to the war."12
http://www.mrlincolnandnewyork.org/inside.asp?ID=92&subjectID=4

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/currents/20070415_How_Civil_War_soldiers_saw_slavery.html

In short, from what I've read, slavery was on everyone's mind during the civil war. Definitely in hte South, the fear was being overwhelmed by freed slaves. And that was not irrational, as reconstruction and the rise of the Klan showed. In the North, emancipation had it's supporters, but the notion of holding the union together, and the class divisions of the South being more caste oriented with large plantations passed from generations, and the North being a. more open to farmers moving west, and b. workers achieving wages in the coming industrial revolution being violently opposed to an aristocracy, which the South undoubtedly had.

I'm thinking most were fighting the "invasion" of the south. Nothing else. Hell, Lee turned down the "head mofo" job with the union army simply because, he would have had to march on virginia, his home. He consequently became the head mofo for the confederacy. I'm thinking if he hadn't have lost stonewall jackson as his right hand man, he might have won the thing.......dman

[houghtam]

As an avid Civil War enthusiast, I can tell you with utmost certainty that the Killer Angels/Gods and Generals series, while entertaining, is a work of fiction, and should be treated as such. A bare minimum of scholarship was used on those novels, and even less on the films.

[bendog]

ummmm, I dunno about Killer Angels. It's accurate as to the chronology of the events at Gettysburg. And, there's gotta be a good reason the lads and lasses at West Pt have to read it. Ted Turner's company made it into an amazing film.

Longstreet was right. Lee should not have accepted battle on the second day. Buford and Doubleday and Reynolds won it on day one. Dammit.

[houghtam]

Lee was suffering from physical and possible mental ailments at the time. There is some evidence that he had just recently had a heart attack. In my opinion, I don't think he was able to see the situation entirely clearly, and I am not sure how well he trusted Longstreet. He was a highly respected general, but keep in mind that Lee's second in command, Stonewall Jackson, had been killed a few months before, and his corps divided between AP Hill and Ewell. Jackson would not have made the same mistake that Hill did by attacking without orders to do so, or the same mistake as Ewell did by not taking Cemetary Hill on the first day. It was the command of the Confederate 2nd and 3rd amry corps that lost the battle for them, not Lee, IMO.

[bendog]

Yeah, Longstreet wasn't offensive minded, as were Lee and Jackson. Longstreet saying the ground favored the defense wouldn't have carried much weight. Plus the irony of having Meade, an engineer, in overall command of the union. The battlegroud was an engineer's dream.

When Hill couldn't take cemetary hill on the first day, we were doomed. Dammit.

Seriously, I joke about it, but had not the US been one single union, I think we're talking German now. Or at least Ruskie.

[Bronco Bob]

Yeah, Longstreet wasn't offensive minded, as were Lee and Jackson. Longstreet saying the ground favored the defense wouldn't have carried much weight. Plus the irony of having Meade, an engineer, in overall command of the union. The battlegroud was an engineer's dream.

When Hill couldn't take cemetary hill on the first day, we were doomed. Dammit.

Seriously, I joke about it, but had not the US been one single union, I think we're talking German now. Or at least Ruskie.

Maybe not. The US entering WW1 helped the French to win WW1.
By winning WW1, France dictated the terms of the Armstice.
Germany felt they got a raw deal out of it and that precipitated WW2.
If there were no powerful USA to join the French in WW1, it probably
would have ended in a draw with both sides calling a truce.
Germany wouldn't have felt cheated and no one would have paid
attention to Hitler, so there may not have been a rise of Nazism
and the resulting WW2. WW1 was also a major factor in the Tsar
being overthrown in Russia. Hard saying how that might have
turned out. Even if the communists still would have taken over,
they might have been a lot less paranoid if they hadn't been so
violently attacked by the Nazis in WW2. It was that paranoia
that motivated them to control half of Europe after WW2
and try to expand their influence world wide. If there was no
one left to attack them, no one would attack them.

[houghtam]

Maybe not. The US entering WW1 helped the French to win WW1.
By winning WW1, France dictated the terms of the Armstice.
Germany felt they got a raw deal out of it and that precipitated WW2.
If there were no powerful USA to join the French in WW1, it probably
would have ended in a draw with both sides calling a truce.
Germany wouldn't have felt cheated and no one would have paid
attention to Hitler, so there may not have been a rise of Nazism
and the resulting WW2. WW1 was also a major factor in the Tsar
being overthrown in Russia. Hard saying how that might have
turned out. Even if the communists still would have taken over,
they might have been a lot less paranoid if they hadn't been so
violently attacked by the Nazis in WW2. It was that paranoia
that motivated them to control half of Europe after WW2
and try to expand their influence world wide. If there was no
one left to attack them, no one would attack them.


Excellent points. Truly excellent points. If the United States had remained split in two, the history of the world would be completely different. We wouldn't have had nearly the effect on everyone else as we actually did. And we would have stayed neutral for the Spanish-American War, and everything afterward, IMO.

[bendog]

JMO, but no US intervention and the Germans win WWI. The French were finished. Even with a negotiated settlemet, Germany would have kept Antwerp giving it easier access to the sea, and Austria Hungary had the Dromatine coast in the Med, and the central powers would have taken all of France's colonial possessions.

The Kaiser despised America and capitalism. He viewed us like a cancer eating away at a healthy body. I think Hitler was an opportunist, not really a cause. Germany was an expansionary power from the late 19th century to 1945. After WWII, the German people changed, when they had to come face to face with what they'd done. Gunther Grass - and it turned out even he had blood on his hands.