Damn! Led Zeppelin was Good!

[Rohirrim]

I haven't listened to them in years. I got a new Mac and some very sweet Harmon Kardon Soundstick speakers. I was uploading a bunch of my CDs. My wife decided to take the kids to the movies so I got the house to myself. I threw in that first LZ album and as each song came up, I cranked the volume up a bit, until now I couldn't hear a B52 going overhead. ;D

But damn! Those guys were effin great!

"I got a bird that whistles,
and I have birds that sing.... ha, ha, ha..."

[BroncoBuff]

That first record is still, in many ways, their best.

[Northman]

Great band, no doubt.

[BroncoBuff]

Led Zeppelin: Great band ... or greatest band?

[Northman]

Great band, not greatest. But great. :)

[Rohirrim]

I would have to go with The Beatles as the greatest band of all time. Even after all these years. I can't think of anybody that comes close - and I was always more of a Stones fan.

[Garcia Bronco]

I never got the opportunity to see them live, but from what I hear...it was terrible to see them live. My favortie album is the 3rd one.

[El Guapo]

I have the 2-disc set of their "best of" and Im blown away every time its in the cd player.

[BroncoBuff]

That's is so great GB ... it's a testimony to the group. You like 'III' best, even when it was their second worst selling record (Presence). Every one of their records has good reasons why it's best. Most people like 'IV' best, and I agree. But 'Physical Graffiti' is consistently voted second best, and I put it near the bottom! Same with 'Houses.' Most people grade it close to the bottom, but I think it's nearly their best.

Rohirrim is right of course - the Beatles must be #1. But Zeppelin is a CLEAR #2 in my mind. The question is, who's #3? I say U2.



My Zeppelin List:
1. IV
2. II
3. I
4. Houses
5. III
6. Presence
7. Graffiti
8. In thru the Out Door


I don't count Coda.

[BroncoBuff]

I never got the opportunity to see them live, but from what I hear...it was terrible to see them live. My favortie album is the 3rd one.

Yeah, they sucked live - from a musical standpoint. Their shows were all energy. Nothing wrong with that, but Page's studio production values were what made the group so special in my view. How can three instruments and one voice replicate that genius live?

And Plant never hit the notes live.

Here's why: Never actually admitted by Page, but widely understood in the business is that Page would get the track - the three main instruments - recorded first. Then, he would slow the tape speed perhaps 1/2 step (musically) for Plant to add the vocal tracks. Then, Page sped the tape back up, added solos and overdubs, and finally mastered the songs at regular speed. Plant was a mild version of "Alvin and the Chipmunks."

[Rohirrim]

I will say one thing, John Bonham was the best rock and roll drummer of all time. My #3 would have to be the Stones or The Who. I got to see The Who at the Long Beach Auditorium. The only show I ever saw that was better was at the L.A. Forum; BB King, Ike and Tina Turner Revue and the Stones. When we came out, the sun was coming up. (Sorry BB, but I hate U2)

[Hogan11]

I always thought Zepplin was highly overrated....for various reasons. I could take half of Taco's bandwidth to explain and point out why I feel that way but why rain on people's parade?

[Tredici]

I always thought Zepplin was highly overrated....for various reasons. I could take half of Taco's bandwidth to explain and point out why I feel that way but why rain on people's parade?

Why indeed? When just a little cloudburst will do....

:~ohyah!:

[The Lone Bolt]

Best

rock

band

EVER!


Their music is timeless, and they were better musicians than the Beatles. :thumbsup:

[rbackfactory80]

Gotta love the Zepplin

[Rohirrim]

I always thought Zepplin was highly overrated....for various reasons. I could take half of Taco's bandwidth to explain and point out why I feel that way but why rain on people's parade?

Elitist! Nnyah!

[Malcontent]

And their most prolific album was IMO... "In through the Out Door" I still cannot listen to it without going start to finish without interruption. The producer really knew his stuff when deciding the song order.

[BroncoBuff]

And their most prolific album was IMO... "In through the Out Door" I still cannot listen to it without going start to finish without interruption. The producer really knew his stuff when deciding the song order.

Interesting ... it's rare to find people who choose that album. Interesting you mentioned the producer, too, because that was the only album John Paul Jones produced. I'm not sure he's credited as that, but it's pretty well acknowledged that Page was so deep into heroin in 78-79, that Jonesy ran the show. You can definitely hear that, too.

[Hogan11]

Elitist! Nnyah!

Thank you! I take great pride in my elitism in this area. :thanku:

[REB]

I've always been a big LZ fan myself.

[BroncoBuff]

And their most prolific album was IMO... "In through the Out Door" The producer really knew his stuff ...

I love the record too ... but it is definitely their most different:

The album was named by the group as such, because of their recent problems and the rise of punk music, trying to get back into the public mind is like "trying to get in through the 'Out' door."

In contrast to previous Led Zeppelin albums, In Through The Out Door features much greater influence on the part of bassist and keyboardist John Paul Jones and vocalist Robert Plant, and less from drummer John Bonham and guitarist Jimmy Page. This was a result of Bonham and Page often not showing up on time at the recording studio, and many of the songs were consequently put together by Plant and Jones during the day, with Page and Bonham adding their parts late at night.

In an interview Page gave to Guitar World magazine in 1998, he said he and John Bonham:

“both felt that 'In Through The Out Door' was a little soft. I wasn't really keen on 'All My Love.' I was a little worried about the chorus. I could just imagine people doing the wave and all of that. I thought, That's not us. That's not us. In its place it was fine, but I wouldn't have wanted to pursue that direction in the future.'

Interesting Page bashes 'All My Love,' as it was a Plant homage to his deceased 5-yead old son Karac, who died of a mysterious illness that some attributed to Page's dabbling in black magick. Page is right of course, the chorus on 'All My Love' is hopelessly syrupy and had no business on a Led Zeppelin album. It's also the only song Led Zepelin ever recorded that Page didn't write (actually he didnt write 'Carouselambra' either - those two).

Hogan, you might not personally like them, but with your knowledge you must realize their massive influence and unique genius, right?

[Rohirrim]

Hogan, you might not personally like them, but with your knowledge you must realize their massive influence and unique genius, right?

The more popular it is, the more poisonous it is to the elitist. My cousin is a jazz aficionado. You've never seen a bigger snob in your life.
I think he considers any form of music that is not jazz some kind of personal insult. He barely accepts the blues as an art form, but only because it has similar root connections to the purity and perfection of jazz. When he talks about his beloved jazz, he even tilts his head back and starts talking in this nasally voice. Gaack! It's enough to make you commit hari kari. Whatever you do, don't mention John Coltrane. You'll be trapped for hours.

[Hogan11]

Hogan, you might not personally like them, but with your knowledge you must realize their massive influence and unique genius, right?

Buff, as I said before...I could go on all day long about how Zepplin are overrated in almost every aspect in terms of music and impact...but why rain on people's lovefest? Let me pose the question to you: What did Zepplin ever do that was so groundbreaking and revolutionary? What kind of impact did that band ever really have? Certainly nothing that transcended the genre or pop culture itself.

Really, in spite of my bitter hatred of Robert Plant (a vocalist who, if it weren't for Uriah Heep's David Byron, would be the poster boy for the most annoying vocal histrionics ever committed to wax) I do like Zepplin and own my obligatory three Zepplin releases. Also, contrary to popular belief, I also give credit where credit is due...it has nothing to do with an artist's popularity, sales or whatever else can be thrown upon non-believers in the myth like myself. In the case of Zepplin however, IMO too much credit is attributed to them when it comes to impact....most of that has to do with it's large cult of fans who lack the ability to be truly objective when judging the bands work more than anything else. It's a perfectly understandable reaction. Kinda like going to Amazon.com and seeing all the people give 5 star ratings to everything their favorite band ever did...such things cannot be taken all that seriously.

[BroncoBuff]

Last summer I spent about TWO HOURS on this one post - and it fits here in a "Led Zep Influence" discussion very well. I try to draw comparisons between Led Zep I and everything else that was happening at that time.

.........


I agree with your premise, LABF, that Zep pushed many envelopes from III onward, but I contend that LZ-I was a masterwork in historical context. Sure, it's solidly blues-based, but LZ-1 changed EVERYTHING. It radically expanded how the blues could be played and sung, how rock could be played and sung, it revolutionized many recording techniques, the way drums are both played and recorded, and it radically expanded popular music in general.

The way I try to prove that is as follows:

Led Zep I was recorded in November 1968 (though released Jan. 69). So, simply gather up and listen to all the other pop/rock albums of the same time period to determine whether and to what extent LZ-I "changed everything," as my thesis contends:

CREAM - Wheels of Fire - Summer 1968 - Cream was pretty good, or that's what so many folks breathlessly tell me ... but this record sounds so bare and sparse, so uninspired next to LZ-I, that it doesn't really deserve comparison. The recording technique sounds primitive. Might've even been mono. Further, though Clapton might be a "God" to my breathless friends, his guitar and esp. guitar sounds (that muff fuzz) vs. Jimmy's guitar sounds on LZ-1 is truly MAN vs. BOY.
JEFF BECK GROUP - Truth - 1968 - Same thing here, although the comparison is easier to make. First, Beck's album includes two LZ members on some of the songs - Jimmy Page and John Paul Jones. Second, Beck actually recorded (unbeknownst to all apparently) one of the songs on LZ-I - a blues cover "You Shook Me." When you listen to them side-by-side, it's almost laughable. Zeppelin's version is power ... Beck's version is prim.
JIMI HENDRIX - Electric Ladyland - Autumn 1968 - Much smoother production values than 'Axis: Bold as Love,' bringing in many other musicians in an effort to expand the one-man guitar show (Steve Winwood on organ, Dave Mason 12-string guitar on "All along the Watchtower"). But this double-album has so many different styles of music that imo it lacks the cohesion of, and pales next to the singular drive of LZ-1. And despite the guest musicians, the other instrumentation is only average. Mitch Mitchell on drums vs. John Bonham, is again, MAN vs. BOY. I don't think this record is in the same league as LZ-1. Not even close.
DEEP PURPLE - Book of Taliesyn - Sept-Oct 1968 - Ritchie Blackmore and Purple did become a solid hard rock group, but not until after Zep and Sabbath showed them the way. This record is simplistic really, even sparse - despite a full string section. Also poorly recorded, might be mono. This earlier Deep Purple sounds more like The Moody Blues than Led Zeppelin. NO comparison.
BEATLES - The White Album - November 1968 - A different thing altogether, but this record is beloved. More pop and experiemntal than blues-based hard rock. The Beatles were better than LZ in my opinion.
CHICAGO TRANSIT AUTHORITY - Sep-Dec 1968 (later renamed "Chicago") - Might seem funny to include this one, but it is, imo, the closet thing to LZ-1 in the period. This debut double-album is a groundbreaking amalgam of Rock, blues, R&B and jazz. This record didn't just "push" the envelope, it invented a new envelope. Lengthy, jazz-pop medleys, with 4 eventual Top 40 hits, CTA was new, but not in the same league as Zep. Recorded in mono, and sounds a bit muddy now. The musicianship is amazing though - Terry Kath is the most underrated guitar player of all-time. Hendrix said Kath was his "favorite guitarist." But the arrangements and style were all that was really new - the sound was below average, really, and it's more pop/R&B than blues-rock.
BLACK SABBATH - Everybody mentions them when I make my "LZ-1 Changed Music Forever" claim. It's true Sabbath was formed in 1968, but Iommi's accident and rehab pushed back their first album, however groundbreaking, to Jan. 1970. They had a full year to listen to LZ I. Besides, even Iommi and Osborne admit that Tommy's finger prosthetic - which necessitated his guitar to be tuned down a full step - was just an 'accidental' stroke of genius. That heavy Iommi sound - 'Smoke on the Water' sound - was awesome indeed, even groundbeaking. But it was an accident caused by his accident (incidentally, I saw on VH-1 Classic where Iommi lost his finger on his very last day of work at that factory. He was set to quit the next day to record their debut album with Ozzy. Can you imagine how he must have felt that day? Brutal ... the comback would be a good story.)
TRAFFIC - Autumn 1968 - Half this record is Dave Mason's folksy songs, the other half Steve Winwood's jamming. More R&B than hard-edged rock, nothing special from a trail-blazing standpoint. No comparison really. Winwood formed Blind Faith a year later with Clapton, but even that record sounds 'sparse.'
ALLMAN BROTHERS BAND - March 1969 - A little late, but their first record is incredible. Whipping Post and the original "Dreams I'll Never See" still sound wonderful. More R&B jamming than a focused trail-blazing envelope-buster. I love it though.Even more than the songs and instruments, the production techniques Jimmy used were SO advanced - so groundbreaking. The spatial sounds he learned to produce after a decade as Britain's #1 session guitar player, the amazing bow and backwards-echo used on "Dazed and Confused," (and his cutting edge echo techniques throughout), the BIG AUDITORIUM sound of the acoustic guitar on "Babe I'm Gonna Leave" and "Your Time is Gonna Come," and his micing of Bonham's bass drum was new, new, new ... and it almost deflates your lungs when you hear it loud. Some soungs sound like what others were doing at the time, "Communication Breakdown," for example. But the rest of the sound is full, gripping and groundbreaking, to say the least

And Bonham and Plant. Bonham and Plant. B o n h a m . . . and . . . P l a n t . Nobody ever played or sang like they did before - and nobody like Bonham since, imo.

Led Zeppelin I and II, along with Sabbath's first, INVENTED hard rock/heavy metal. Never think otherwise.

[BroncoBuff]

As I re-read this, I realize that much of my praise of LZ - at least the first album - was the sound. It was beautifully recorded in the (still new) stereo format.

Plus, Page's guitar sounds are amazing! His electric guitar slashes and crunches, while Cream's Clapton, Chicago's Kath and Purple's Blackmore all have that 60s Muff-Fuzz tone on theirs. And his acoustic guitar is a MONSTER!!!! - just listen to the sound of the first 30 seconds of "Babe, I'm Gonna Leave You," and you'll hear what I mean. It sounds like the instument box is 50 feet deep and being played in an enormous concert auditorium .... at the same time, Harrison' acoustic guitar on 'Norweigan Wood,' or Mason's 12-string acoustic on Hendrix's "Watchtower" sound like they're in a closet.

[Hogan11]

Okay..here's my take on the sound issue:

As I re-read this, I realize that much of my praise of LZ - at least the first album - was the sound. It was beautifully recorded in the (still new) stereo format.

IMHO, A lot of what you credit Led Zeppelin for soundwise in the above paragraph was lifted…shamelessly lifted in fact, from Shadow Morton’s production of Vanilla Fudge’s first album in 1967. Listen to that album sometime and you’ll know where the production techniques and Zeppelin drum sound came from (no surprise really given that Zeppelin opened for that band on it’s 1968 tour of the USA). One could argue that Zeppelin gave the loud, deep and full sound Morton used on Vanilla Fudge a much wider audience, except for the fact that the Fudge album reached the top 20 on two separate occasions before Led Zeppelin’s first album was even recorded.

[Rohirrim]

Led Zeppelin I and II, along with Sabbath's first, INVENTED hard rock/heavy metal. Never think otherwise.

That's the way I remember it. Never did like Sabbath. I always thought of them as a cheap imitation. And I never listened to LZ beyond those first two albums. But those first two were damn good! I can't imagine anybody believing they were better, musically, than the Beatles, but hey, to each his own. At the core, I was always a Stones fan because of my affinity for blues. My oldest sister once dated Elvin Bishop, so when I was about 11 years old, half the Butterfield Blues Band was over to our house (not Paul or Bloomfield) and hung out while I made them chile. That's how I got turned on to East/West, which really redirected my musical tastes. At about that same time I was given a copy of Aftermath. I still think the Stones are the best when they play the closest to their blues roots. That's why I still prefer their early stuff over the much later arena pop. But those blues albums pretty much grooved my musical tastes. Then I started listening to Albert Collins, Sonny and Terry, etc. I would have to say that, even now, the blues sound resonates with me more strongly than anything else, even though I have very eclectic musical tastes. If I'm going to kick back by myself and listen to something to soothe my soul, it's going to be bluesy.
__________________

[Rohirrim]

As I re-read this, I realize that much of my praise of LZ - at least the first album - was the sound. It was beautifully recorded in the (still new) stereo format.

Plus, Page's guitar sounds are amazing! His electric guitar slashes and crunches, while Cream's Clapton, Chicago's Kath and Purple's Blackmore all have that 60s Muff-Fuzz tone on theirs. And his acoustic guitar is a MONSTER!!!! - just listen to the sound of the first 30 seconds of "Babe, I'm Gonna Leave You," and you'll hear what I mean. It sounds like the instument box is 50 feet deep and being played in an enormous concert auditorium .... at the same time, Harrison' acoustic guitar on 'Norweigan Wood,' or Mason's 12-string acoustic on Hendrix's "Watchtower" sound like they're in a closet.

I'm sure you've heard the Bluesbreakers album with Clapton and John Mayall. That's the first time I remember hearing that kind of crystal clear, biting guitar sound. I think he had a Les Paul and a couple of cranked up Marshall stacks, or something. Anyway, I don't remember ever hearing that kind of guitar sound before that.

[Hogan11]

Buff, your two hour post is interesting...but I don't agree with much of it.

Here's my take on it or as the Bangs character said in Almost Famous "Here's a theory for you to disregard completely..."

I believe that 1969 was one of those years in music where a certain influence manifested itself across the board...much like 1964 for the British Invasion or 1976 for the punk thing. Sometimes, it takes a year or a few years for the initial influence to take root and jell...but when it does, it usually arrives in an explosion of bands all arriving at the same point at the same time.

What I'm talking about here is the initial influence of Cream coming to the surface across the board. If you look at that year, you'll find many bands like Zeppelin, Sabbath, Free, Grand Funk Railroad, Blue Cheer, etc. etc. all arriving with debut albums, all based upon the loud, improv dissemblings on blues themes, all pretty much at the same time (seperated by a few months here and there but hardly enough to truly matter)....it effectively signaled the end of psychedelia and the advent of hard rock/heavy metal era, totally dominating the scene a mere two years later. I believe Cream to be the first to do this anyways (or if not, then certainly they were the most celebrated of the style's practioners)

Keep in mind here that I'm in no way, manner, shape or form saying that Led Zeppelin's debut sucked...I'm just saying that, while it is one of the more solid debuts out of that pack, I don't find it anywhere near as groundbreaking or as transcending as you do. I find it as maybe better assembled and effectively using that same Shadow Morton Fudge production style I discussed above to put it across more effectively than most of the other debuts.....a smart move, but not revolutionary.

I also take issue with the following paragraphs:

Even more than the songs and instruments, the production techniques Jimmy used were SO advanced - so groundbreaking. The spatial sounds he learned to produce after a decade as Britain's #1 session guitar player, the amazing bow and backwards-echo used on "Dazed and Confused," (and his cutting edge echo techniques throughout), the BIG AUDITORIUM sound of the acoustic guitar on "Babe I'm Gonna Leave" and "Your Time is Gonna Come," and his micing of Bonham's bass drum was new, new, new ... and it almost deflates your lungs when you hear it loud. Some soungs sound like what others were doing at the time, "Communication Breakdown," for example. But the rest of the sound is full, gripping and groundbreaking, to say the least

And Bonham and Plant. Bonham and Plant. B o n h a m . . . and . . . P l a n t . Nobody ever played or sang like they did before - and nobody like Bonham since, imo.

Page lifted his stylings from various sources. As a former session guy, this is also no surprise. You site the bow for example, bowing of the guitar was actually the trademark of The Creation’s Eddie Phillips…who made a name for himself with it for a time in the mid-60’s Mod “freak out” sound (think the instrumental break, if you wanna call it that, in The Who’s “Anyway, Anyhow, Anywhere and you’ll get the idea) …it was later picked up on and incorporated by Page, as much of his other chops were from a variety of sources.

IMO, Bonham was an above average drummer of his day. Certainly better than most of the average time-keepers, but there are a few I’d take over him. The Fudge’s Carmine Appice, Keith Moon and Ginger Baker to name a few all displayed much more nimble and fluid drumming on the releases they appeared on. Bonham always seemed labored in his style to me, the aural equivalent of a bull in a china shop. Maybe that was the appeal to some, but to me, I was never all that wowed by it…especially after hearing Appice on the Vanilla Fudge album I keep returning to when discussing the overall sound in question here.

Plant is best left unmentioned by me. Never liked anything about him, his vocals or his mystical bullshat lyrics. As far as his style being inventive or changing the face of what came before or after, if you’re talking about range and the introduction of near falsetto vocals to hard rock, then yeah..I can agree with that, but that is in no manner, way, shape or form saying that it’s something I welcome or approve of.

[Hogan11]

While I still don't buy the "Zep changed everything" arguement, I do like the album comparisons....Here's my select takes on some of Buff's Led Zeppelin I vs. various albums:

CREAM - Wheels of Fire - Summer 1968 - Cream was pretty good, or that's what so many folks breathlessly tell me ... but this record sounds so bare and sparse, so uninspired next to LZ-I, that it doesn't really deserve comparison. The recording technique sounds primitive. Might've even been mono. Further, though Clapton might be a "God" to my breathless friends, his guitar and esp. guitar sounds (that muff fuzz) vs. Jimmy's guitar sounds on LZ-1 is truly MAN vs. BOY.

Cream was dominated in almost every way by Jack Bruce. “Clapton Is God” types even concede that. With it’s influence already being felt, Wheels of Fire captures the band on it’s way out, so it’s no Disraeli Gears by a long shot. Felix Pappalardi’s production efforts always left much to be desired and (as usual) they nearly sink the heavily overdubbed studio side. The live recording however, cannot be touched by Led Zep I. Live Cream recordings in general house Zeppelin IMHO mainly because the band shows much more energy & improvisation on it’s blues themes than Zeppelin ever did. The studio side of this album however, brings it down.

Verdict: Led Zeppelin I is better than Wheels Of Fire.

JEFF BECK GROUP - Truth - 1968 - Same thing here, although the comparison is easier to make. First, Beck's album includes two LZ members on some of the songs - Jimmy Page and John Paul Jones. Second, Beck actually recorded (unbeknownst to all apparently) one of the songs on LZ-I - a blues cover "You Shook Me." When you listen to them side-by-side, it's almost laughable. Zeppelin's version is power ... Beck's version is prim.

I have not heard this album in quite awhile…long enough in fact, that I cannot remember it to save my life much less fairly compare the two releases honestly.

Verdict: None

JIMI HENDRIX - Electric Ladyland - Autumn 1968 - Much smoother production values than 'Axis: Bold as Love,' bringing in many other musicians in an effort to expand the one-man guitar show (Steve Winwood on organ, Dave Mason 12-string guitar on "All along the Watchtower"). But this double-album has so many different styles of music that imo it lacks the cohesion of, and pales next to the singular drive of LZ-1. And despite the guest musicians, the other instrumentation is only average. Mitch Mitchell on drums vs. John Bonham, is again, MAN vs. BOY. I don't think this record is in the same league as LZ-1. Not even close.

You wanna talk about production? It simply doesn’t get any better than this and the remix of the album for the CD age is one of the few remixes that succeeds. Hendrix milked the studio for all it was worth here….the album’s use of effects was truly revolutionary and unequaled for it’s time. Describing the musicianship on this album as only average is a major headscratcher and while Mitch Mitchell is not as good as Bonham, comparing Hendrix vs. Page is how you say, MAN vs. BOY.

Verdict: Electric Ladyland, hands down

DEEP PURPLE - Book of Taliesyn - Sept-Oct 1968 - Ritchie Blackmore and Purple did become a solid hard rock group, but not until after Zep and Sabbath showed them the way. This record is simplistic really, even sparse - despite a full string section. Also poorly recorded, might be mono. This earlier Deep Purple sounds more like The Moody Blues than Led Zeppelin. NO comparison.

This hunk of garbage shouldn’t even be seriously included here. Deep Purple has “In Rock”, “Fireball”, “Machine Head”, “Made In Japan” and a handful of singles to recommend itself with and that’s about it ….NOT one of the great bands of all time by a long shot.

Verdict: Led Zeppelin I in an absolute laugher

BEATLES - The White Album - November 1968 - A different thing altogether, but this record is beloved. More pop and experiemntal than blues-based hard rock. The Beatles were better than LZ in my opinion.

Agreed. No need to expand on what is perhaps The Beatles greatest album here

Verdict: The White Album

CHICAGO TRANSIT AUTHORITY - Sep-Dec 1968 (later renamed "Chicago") - Might seem funny to include this one, but it is, imo, the closet thing to LZ-1 in the period. This debut double-album is a groundbreaking amalgam of Rock, blues, R&B and jazz. This record didn't just "push" the envelope, it invented a new envelope. Lengthy, jazz-pop medleys, with 4 eventual Top 40 hits, CTA was new, but not in the same league as Zep. Recorded in mono, and sounds a bit muddy now. The musicianship is amazing though - Terry Kath is the most underrated guitar player of all-time. Hendrix said Kath was his "favorite guitarist." But the arrangements and style were all that was really new - the sound was below average, really, and it's more pop/R&B than blues-rock.

You missed the mark here a bit IMO. This album (and group concept for that matter) is more of a response to Blood, Sweat & Tears “Child Is Father to the Man”, which was released in Feb. 1968 and is the sole album by that band under the direction of Al Kooper. BS&T on that lone album is everything you say CTA is (minus the hits, but it does have such standards as "I Love You More Than You'll Ever Know" and "I Can't Quit Her" amongst others) and more….plus it benefits from not having James William Guercio’s horrid, muffled production. You’re being wayyyy too kind to just describe it as “a bit muddy” it’s quite possibly the muddiest production in recorded history….even the remixes of Chicago’s early albums can’t overcome it and it’s a real shame. Of course, BS&T kicked out Kooper for being “too weird” and proceeded to hire the overwrought David Clayton-Thomas for it’s descent into AOR sellout stardom.
I’d take either album over Led Zeppelin I mainly because the concept was much more ambitious than anything Zeppelin (or very many others for that matter) ever dare attempted. I find both much more rewarding nowadays but you’re not gonna get anywhere with trying to justify that stance with the hard rock/heavy metal crowd…many of whom see/hear brass & strings and instantly tune out. I could go on, but the relevance for this discussion just isn't there.

Verdict: Much too stylistically different for a fair match up.

BLACK SABBATH - Everybody mentions them when I make my "LZ-1 Changed Music Forever" claim. It's true Sabbath was formed in 1968, but Iommi's accident and rehab pushed back their first album, however groundbreaking, to Jan. 1970. They had a full year to listen to LZ I. Besides, even Iommi and Osborne admit that Tommy's finger prosthetic - which necessitated his guitar to be tuned down a full step - was just an 'accidental' stroke of genius. That heavy Iommi sound - 'Smoke on the Water' sound - was awesome indeed, even groundbeaking. But it was an accident caused by his accident (incidentally, I saw on VH-1 Classic where Iommi lost his finger on his very last day of work at that factory. He was set to quit the next day to record their debut album with Ozzy. Can you imagine how he must have felt that day? Brutal ... the comback would be a good story.)

This album starts out pretty powerfully, but it runs totally out of steam after N.I.B. (or on Side Two for all you old people out there who still have the record, like I do). What remains could define the word lame. Ozzy’s cartoonish, nasal vocals always robbed this music of a power that could’ve been truly frightening in the hands of a better, more competent vocalist. I may be of the opinion that Sabbath was the overall better band during this time, but the first album sees them as still getting their act together IMO. I’d take Master of Reality, Paranoid & Volume 4 over any Zeppelin any day of the week, but I can’t do it honestly here with the weak ass Side Two of the album staring me in the face.

Verdict: Led Zeppelin I

Okay, I'm whipped and had enough...give Zeppelin the nod over Traffic & The Allmans as well.

[Rohirrim]

I couldn't give LZ 1 the nod over Electric Ladyland, one of my favorite albums of all time. In fact, I was listening to Burn the Midnight Lamp just yesterday. Also, oddly enough, I have Jeff Beck's Truth in my car CD right now. I liked Rod Stewart all the way up until the Face's Gasoline Alley.

[Rohirrim]

BTW, as a side note to this thread, if anybody is in the market for PC speakers, take a look at the Harmon Kardon Soundsticks. I'm amazed at the sound coming out of these things. The Bose and JBL's sound is laughable compared to these.

[alkemical]

I love the record too ... but it is definitely their most different:



Interesting Page bashes 'All My Love,' as it was a Plant homage to his deceased 5-yead old son Karac, who died of a mysterious illness that some attributed to Page's dabbling in black magick. Page is right of course, the chorus on 'All My Love' is hopelessly syrupy and had no business on a Led Zeppelin album. It's also the only song Led Zepelin ever recorded that Page didn't write (actually he didnt write 'Carouselambra' either - those two).

Hogan, you might not personally like them, but with your knowledge you must realize their massive influence and unique genius, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Page#Occult_connections

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boleskine_House

[BroncoBuff]

Oops ... Iommi wasn't Smoke on the Water ... that was Deep Purple.



Sorry ... :oyvey: tsk tsk ::)

[gunns]

I have the 2-disc set of their "best of" and Im blown away every time its in the cd player.

I have it too. Had their early LP's until my kids used them for frisbee's. Yes they lived.

To me, they were the greatest. The drums and Jimmy page alone kept me enthralled.

[Swedish Extrovert]

I haven't listened to them in years. I got a new Mac and some very sweet Harmon Kardon Soundstick speakers. I was uploading a bunch of my CDs. My wife decided to take the kids to the movies so I got the house to myself. I threw in that first LZ album and as each song came up, I cranked the volume up a bit, until now I couldn't hear a B52 going overhead. ;D

But damn! Those guys were effin great!

"I got a bird that whistles,
and I have birds that sing.... ha, ha, ha..."

So how does the greatest hard rock band sound on that (I'm assuming) badass Mac of yours?

Rep for Zepp!

[Smiling Assassin27]

Jimmy Page's guitar is unlike anyone else's. The solos aren't technically hard but he had the perfect storm--tone, phrasing, song context, and sloppiness. And Bonzo's nuances are right up there with Neal Peart as the greatest in rock. To say Led Zeppelin is good is to say Dolly Parton is a little big in the chest area.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

My Zeppelin List:
1. IV
2. II
3. I
4. Houses
5. III
6. Presence
7. Graffiti
8. In thru the Out Door



Hmm...I've never attempted to make such a list, but I'll give it a shot:

1) Graffiti (Zep at their most progressive, and the most ambitious record, from a composition standpoint, IMO.)
2) Houses (By this record they had left a lot of the early blues rock cliches behind, and their own identity had really emerged in its fullness, IMO. LZ was at its creative peak around this time, i.e., c. 1973.)
3) III (I just like the vibe on the acoustic side - it creates a mood of its own.)
4) IV (The most consistent effort hitherto, IMO, and a most coherent amalgamation of the various styles and influences in evidence on the previous records.)
5) I (From a guitar standpoint, Page was taking no prisoners here. He definitely threw down the gauntlet. This was 1968, mind you. Jimi who?)
6) II (A little bombastic to my ears, at times, but some nice moments.)
7) Presence (Some great moments here, but the vultures were already starting to circle, weren't they? Plant was recovering from a bad car wreck and recorded the vox while in a body cast!)
8) In Through The Out Door (This was really, for all intents and purposes, a John Paul Jones record, huh?)

[gunns]

While I still don't buy the "Zep changed everything" arguement, I do like the album comparisons....Here's my select takes on some of Buff's Led Zeppelin I vs. various albums:



Cream was dominated in almost every way by Jack Bruce. “Clapton Is God” types even concede that. With it’s influence already being felt, Wheels of Fire captures the band on it’s way out, so it’s no Disraeli Gears by a long shot. Felix Pappalardi’s production efforts always left much to be desired and (as usual) they nearly sink the heavily overdubbed studio side. The live recording however, cannot be touched by Led Zep I. Live Cream recordings in general house Zeppelin IMHO mainly because the band shows much more energy & improvisation on it’s blues themes than Zeppelin ever did. The studio side of this album however, brings it down.

Verdict: Led Zeppelin I is better than Wheels Of Fire.



I have not heard this album in quite awhile…long enough in fact, that I cannot remember it to save my life much less fairly compare the two releases honestly.

Verdict: None



You wanna talk about production? It simply doesn’t get any better than this and the remix of the album for the CD age is one of the few remixes that succeeds. Hendrix milked the studio for all it was worth here….the album’s use of effects was truly revolutionary and unequaled for it’s time. Describing the musicianship on this album as only average is a major headscratcher and while Mitch Mitchell is not as good as Bonham, comparing Hendrix vs. Page is how you say, MAN vs. BOY.

Verdict: Electric Ladyland, hands down



This hunk of garbage shouldn’t even be seriously included here. Deep Purple has “In Rock”, “Fireball”, “Machine Head”, “Made In Japan” and a handful of singles to recommend itself with and that’s about it ….NOT one of the great bands of all time by a long shot.

Verdict: Led Zeppelin I in an absolute laugher



Agreed. No need to expand on what is perhaps The Beatles greatest album here

Verdict: The White Album



You missed the mark here a bit IMO. This album (and group concept for that matter) is more of a response to Blood, Sweat & Tears “Child Is Father to the Man”, which was released in Feb. 1968 and is the sole album by that band under the direction of Al Kooper. BS&T on that lone album is everything you say CTA is (minus the hits, but it does have such standards as "I Love You More Than You'll Ever Know" and "I Can't Quit Her" amongst others) and more….plus it benefits from not having James William Guercio’s horrid, muffled production. You’re being wayyyy too kind to just describe it as “a bit muddy” it’s quite possibly the muddiest production in recorded history….even the remixes of Chicago’s early albums can’t overcome it and it’s a real shame. Of course, BS&T kicked out Kooper for being “too weird” and proceeded to hire the overwrought David Clayton-Thomas for it’s descent into AOR sellout stardom.
I’d take either album over Led Zeppelin I mainly because the concept was much more ambitious than anything Zeppelin (or very many others for that matter) ever dare attempted. I find both much more rewarding nowadays but you’re not gonna get anywhere with trying to justify that stance with the hard rock/heavy metal crowd…many of whom see/hear brass & strings and instantly tune out. I could go on, but the relevance for this discussion just isn't there.

Verdict: Much too stylistically different for a fair match up.



This album starts out pretty powerfully, but it runs totally out of steam after N.I.B. (or on Side Two for all you old people out there who still have the record, like I do). What remains could define the word lame. Ozzy’s cartoonish, nasal vocals always robbed this music of a power that could’ve been truly frightening in the hands of a better, more competent vocalist. I may be of the opinion that Sabbath was the overall better band during this time, but the first album sees them as still getting their act together IMO. I’d take Master of Reality, Paranoid & Volume 4 over any Zeppelin any day of the week, but I can’t do it honestly here with the weak ass Side Two of the album staring me in the face.

Verdict: Led Zeppelin I

Okay, I'm whipped and had enough...give Zeppelin the nod over Traffic & The Allmans as well.

Couldn't agree more with everything you said....except him missing the mark a bit on the Chicago - LZ comparison. I just feel that was way off mark, too hard to compare as two totally different styles. And giving Zepp the nod over Traffic and the Allmans. It's way more than a nod over Traffic, more of a trouncing and the Allmans were slightly different. Although I'm a huge Zepp fan I will agree with you on Plant. His voice did make a difference in the Zepp sound but hearing him live, the guy struggled to carry a note and sounded little like the studio version.

[BroncoBuff]

BTW, as a side note to this thread, if anybody is in the market for PC speakers, take a look at the Harmon Kardon Soundsticks. I'm amazed at the sound coming out of these things. The Bose and JBL's sound is laughable compared to these.

I think that's how you started this thread ....

[BroncoBuff]

Yeah, they sucked live - from a musical standpoint. Their shows were all energy. Nothing wrong with that, but Page's studio production values were what made the group so special in my view. How can three instruments and one voice replicate that genius live?

And Plant never hit the notes live.

Here's why: Never actually admitted by Page, but widely understood in the business is that Page would get the track - the three main instruments - recorded first. Then, he would slow the tape speed perhaps 1/2 step (musically) for Plant to add the vocal tracks. Then, Page sped the tape back up, added solos and overdubs, and finally mastered the songs at regular speed. Plant was a mild version of "Alvin and the Chipmunks."

There you go gunns - on why Plant's voice was always dull live ^^^

[Hogan11]

Couldn't agree more with everything you said....except him missing the mark a bit on the Chicago - LZ comparison. I just feel that was way off mark, too hard to compare as two totally different styles. And giving Zepp the nod over Traffic and the Allmans. It's way more than a nod over Traffic, more of a trouncing and the Allmans were slightly different. Although I'm a huge Zepp fan I will agree with you on Plant. His voice did make a difference in the Zepp sound but hearing him live, the guy struggled to carry a note and sounded little like the studio version.

Traffic and Steve Winwood in general, has always been very overrated IMHO.

The Allmans, being southern rockers, are a whole different groove...I gave Zep the nod mainly because I was never much a fan of the Allmans or that genre in general (although I don't think anyone under the sun could not like a song like "Melissa"...and that's coming from a guy who absolutely detests country influences and runs to the hills at the first sign of a pedal steel guitar Ha!).

[alkemical]

Allman bros. were how I got into the jam band scene. My one guitar player at one time was into the dead & phish - i liked the allmans, etc - it was a nice mix though - fun fun jams. Good times and good memories.

[BroncoBuff]

Traffic and Steve Winwood in general, has always been very overrated IMHO.

The Allmans, being southern rockers, are a whole different groove...I gave Zep the nod mainly because I was never much a fan of the Allmans or that genre in general (although I don't think anyone under the sun could not like a song like "Melissa"...and that's coming from a guy who absolutely detests country influences and runs to the hills at the first sign of a pedal steel guitar Ha!).

Totally agree on Traffic and Winwood Hogan. Winwood had a spurt of hits as a solo in the 80s you may recall, and again I could not understand what the fuss was.

To me the Allman Brothers might be the most underrated group ever, not really country, but you know that. At least you appreciate a consummate classic like 'Melissa' (listen close the lyric next time - pretty moving).

The pedal-steel guitar is a way-wonderful instrument. If you want to appreciate it in a non-country genre, try k.d. lang's "Ingenue," one of my Top 10 albums all-time. It's brooding and dark, but a masterpiece of cross-genre instrument and voice composing and arranging.

[BroncoBuff]

Speaking of the Allmans and Clapton and rock and roll and history: To everybody in here ... if you haven't had the unique pleasure already, RUN, don't walk, to wherever you can get a copy of:



http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/5102/66917800im8.jpg


If you love pop, soul, R&B and rock history ... every second is a thrill. Best rock history movie I've ever seen. It's literally a thrilling movie.

RUN!

[Hogan11]

The pedal-steel guitar is a way-wonderful instrument. If you want to appreciate it in a non-country genre, try k.d. lang's "Ingenue," one of my Top 10 albums all-time. It's brooding and dark, but a masterpiece of cross-genre instrument and voice composing and arranging.

I know it sounds odd because I do love bottleneck, but pedal steel just drives me up the wall....not as much as the sound of a sitar does, but it's damn close.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The pedal-steel guitar is a way-wonderful instrument. If you want to appreciate it in a non-country genre, try k.d. lang's "Ingenue," one of my Top 10 albums all-time.

Or how about on cuts by your own Led Zeppelin, e.g., "Tangerine?"

:~ohyah!:

[BroncoBuff]

Okay..here's my take on the sound issue:

IMHO, A lot of what you credit Led Zeppelin for soundwise in the above paragraph was lifted…shamelessly lifted in fact, from Shadow Morton’s production of Vanilla Fudge’s first album in 1967. Listen to that album sometime and you’ll know where the production techniques and Zeppelin drum sound came from (no surprise really given that Zeppelin opened for that band on it’s 1968 tour of the USA). One could argue that Zeppelin gave the loud, deep and full sound Morton used on Vanilla Fudge a much wider audience, except for the fact that the Fudge album reached the top 20 on two separate occasions before Led Zeppelin’s first album was even recorded.
That's interesting ... but I don't know Vanilla Fudge actually. It sounds kinda weak, I'm not dodging your comparison, but they've always been a kind of blank to me. I'm sure you're right that VF used a big bass drum sound, but that hardly makes John Bonham derivative. Bonham was a force.of.nature - utterly inimitable. Even the most bitter Zeppelin detractors acknowledge this (so what does that make you? ;D)

One bass drum, one ride tom, two cymbals, and no frills. Just the thunder of the gods.

It seems to me that maybe ... just maybe ... hmmm... you Hogan, have a prejudice that favors less popular, less known artists. That's fine (in fact it's kinda cool, I sometimes feel "left out" that I know so few of the artists you post in here). But when, in service of this prejudice you repeatedly raise the "specter of conspiracy" to marginalize Page and Zeppelin ... well, you lose me there big time. I mean, Randy California wrote a 4-bar melody with a chromatically descending base note ... and suddenly "Stairway to Heaven" is "PLAGIARISM, I SAY ... PLAGIARISM!" Hogan please...

And now here you allege that Page and Bonzo "stole" his drum sound by listening to the opening act on their "New Yardbirds" tour of the States in '68. I'll tell you something, that just sounds nut to me. I may not know Vanilla Fudge, but Bonzo's drum sound is largely a product of studio micing and slap-back echo (and a right foot heavier than a Buick).


C'mon ... Led Zeppelin I is a beautifully recorded record with a full, layered sound unlike anything else in November 1968. Only "Communication Breakdown" sounds thin and whiny like the other bands of the era (and I think it's the only song in their catalog that Jones and Page sang on).
Think of the massive sounding acoustic guitar in 'Babe I'm Gonna Leave You,' or the cavernous cathedral-sounding organ in 'Your Time is Gonna Come' (especially compared to the plastic-sounding Farfisa organs the other bands were using :oyvey:), or the groundbreaking special effects in 'Dazed and Confused." This was POWERFUL STUFF .... this was NEW STUFF!

[BroncoBuff]

As long as we're back in this thread .... this DEFINITELY desrves repeating.

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/5102/66917800im8.jpg

EVERYBODY ....
SEE.THIS.MOVIE!


Go NOW.

Don't walk, RUN.


It's the best rock documentary by a WIDE margin. Dowd first worked on the Manhattan Project (the bomb), but left to become house engineer with Anmet Ertegun's fledgling Atlantic Records. Great interviews with Allmans, Clapton, Ertegun, Wexler, Skynyrd, Ray Charles, Booker T and MGs, Les Paul, Aretha ... and even more amazing was the technical history of recording, from Dowd's uncanny live studio micing to him being on the cutting edge of muti-tracking. And he's SO charming in the film.


RUN!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Saw that one. It was excellent. :thumbsup:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Only "Communication Breakdown" sounds thin and whiny like the other bands of the era...

I read an interview with Page where he said the guitar sound on "Communication Breakdown" was intentional, i.e., he wanted it to sound like it was coming out of a shoe box or something. Dude was a master of the art of mic placement, that's for sure.

[BroncoBuff]

Here's my take on it, or as the Lester Bangs character said in Almost Famous "Here's a theory for you to disregard completely..."
I promise I won't disappoint. ;D


What I'm talking about here is the initial influence of Cream coming to the surface across the board. If you look at that year, you'll find many bands like Zeppelin, Sabbath, Free, Grand Funk Railroad, Blue Cheer, etc. etc. all arriving with debut albums, all based upon the loud, improv dissemblings on blues themes, all pretty much at the same time (seperated by a few months here and there but hardly enough to truly matter)....it effectively signaled the end of psychedelia and the advent of hard rock/heavy metal era, totally dominating the scene a mere two years later. I believe Cream to be the first to do this anyways (or if not, then certainly they were the most celebrated of the style's practioners)
I'll grant you that Cream basically invented the hard rock sound, though it was basically primitive (that stone age fuzz box sound makes me wince in pain). Had Jack Bruce been less an a-hole, maybe they couldda progressed together. Too bad really, I always wondered why Clapton changed bands on average every 18 months ???

But I really don't think Page was much influenced by Cream ... I don't hear much Cream in Zeppelin, not much at all. Like I said, the hard-rock sound pretty much originated with Cream, but the sound of Cream records was pretty thin, in that they sounded like a trio. Zeppelin, although effectively a trio, sounded like a much larger group, in a much bigger room, that was recorded much better.

To me - MY opinion - is that none of the albums you list sound nearly as good as Led Zeppelin, and only "Black Sabbath" is even close creatively, (though Cream did pioneer the hard rock genre). I don't think Grand Funk or Free or Foghat deserve mention in the company of Zeppelin and Sabbath and Cream. I happen to LIKE all these bands (Cream not so much personally), but from a sound perspective - the technical sound of the recording process, none compare. And from a groundbreaking perspective, only Cream and Sabbath compare, and neither band had even a fraction of Zep's musical range (in fact, neither Cream nor Sabbath had much range at all).


Page lifted his stylings from various sources. As a former session guy, this is also no surprise. You site the bow for example, bowing of the guitar was actually the trademark of The Creation’s Eddie Phillips…who made a name for himself with it for a time in the mid-60’s Mod “freak out” sound (think the instrumental break, if you wanna call it that, in The Who’s “Anyway, Anyhow, Anywhere and you’ll get the idea) …it was later picked up on and incorporated by Page, as much of his other chops were from a variety of sources.
Everybody lifted their sources from somebody .... it's only something to frown at when you don't like the artist.

And btw ... the bow means nothing to me, never moved me much. But it was creative to use it ... and just because you can name somebody who used it before him (The Creation's "Eddie Phillips" ... reeeally?!) doesn't mean it's not craetive. You love Clapton, Hogan, well I've got some news for you: Buddy Holly was playing a Strat LONG before Clapton, I think Clapton took the whole Strat idea straight from Holly.


IMO, Bonham was an above average drummer of his day. Certainly better than most of the average time-keepers, but there are a few I’d take over him. The Fudge’s Carmine Appice, Keith Moon and Ginger Baker to name a few all displayed much more nimble and fluid drumming on the releases they appeared on. Bonham always seemed labored in his style to me, the aural equivalent of a bull in a china shop. Maybe that was the appeal to some, but to me, I was never all that wowed by it…especially after hearing Appice on the Vanilla Fudge album I keep returning to when discussing the overall sound in question here.
"Aural equivalent of a bull in a china shop" is a perfect comparison :thumbs: The difference is, I LIKE the way he breaks the china, where you see it as indulgent, I guess.

There's lots of great drumers, but Bonham's THUNDER was perfect for Zeppelin, perfect to contribute to Zep's remake of the face of rock music. Sure, Carmine Appice is terrific. So is Aynsley Dunbar. And Keith Moon. And Ginger Baker is especially great. But only John Bonham is immediately identifiable when you hear him play ... every time Bonham has been sampled by modern artists (Levee Breaks, Moby Dick, whatever), you instantly know it's him. Even on that Aliyah song - when you didn't expect it - BOOM! In an instant you KNEW it was Bonham from When the Levee Breaks. That kind of identifiable cound has gotta count for something, Hogan ... even if you don't personally like it, that is impressive.

(You might be interested in this: By all accounts, Bonham was always fairly obsessed with Ginger Baker, felt insecure and quite challenged by him. It was after seeing Cream in London and driving back to Headly Grange to continue work on IV, that a grumbling Bonham, muttering under his breath 'I'll show that bloke Baker something," that he picked up two drumsticks in each hand and started banging the drums so preternaturally hard, that Page raced out to the van to tell them to start the tape - then breathlessly returned to throw on his axe and play along. The two sticks in each hand is where the song "Four Sticks" got its name ;D)


Plant is best left unmentioned by me. Never liked anything about him, his vocals or his mystical bullshat lyrics.
Well now you're just TRYING to be obtuse.

Obtuse? Ob-TUSE?!

Give him another month to think about it ...
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/994/shawshankredemption3ap2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[BroncoBuff]

I read an interview with Page where he said the guitar sound on "Communication Breakdown" was intentional, i.e., he wanted it to sound like it was coming out of a shoe box or something. Dude was a master of the art of mic placement, that's for sure.
Definitely a mic placment wizard ... and the more I'm responding to Hogan's posts, the more I realize that Page might've been even more of a producer/engineer than even a guitar player or songwriter. LZ I just sounds so beauitiful. Irrespective of style or musicianship or songwriting, it's beautifully recorded (as Roh's post to start this thread testifies).

But Communication Breakdown sounded like so much like the other English bands of the time, I always kinda though it must've been recorded earlier, like New Yardbirds time period ... then maybe 6 months or so later, back from the States, they recorded the rest. And Jones and Page singing on it, although it was probably okay then, just sounds silly now.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

And Jones and Page singing on it, although it was probably okay then, just sounds silly now.

There was always a tongue-in-cheek element with LZ (their choice of their name is emblematic.) :~ohyah!:

[Rohirrim]

Like I said, I love Led Zeppelin. I apologize that my reverence isn't deep enough for some.

[alkemical]

lol Ro~ - i'd rather listen to sabbath at times. :o)

[Hogan11]

That's interesting ... but I don't know Vanilla Fudge actually. It sounds kinda weak, I'm not dodging your comparison, but they've always been a kind of blank to me. I'm sure you're right that VF used a big bass drum sound, but that hardly makes John Bonham derivative. Bonham was a force.of.nature - utterly inimitable. Even the most bitter Zeppelin detractors acknowledge this (so what does that make you? ;D)

One bass drum, one ride tom, two cymbals, and no frills. Just the thunder of the gods.

It seems to me that maybe ... just maybe ... hmmm... you Hogan, have a prejudice that favors less popular, less known artists. That's fine (in fact it's kinda cool, I sometimes feel "left out" that I know so few of the artists you post in here). But when, in service of this prejudice you repeatedly raise the "specter of conspiracy" to marginalize Page and Zeppelin ... well, you lose me there big time. I mean, Randy California wrote a 4-bar melody with a chromatically descending base note ... and suddenly "Stairway to Heaven" is "PLAGIARISM, I SAY ... PLAGIARISM!" Hogan please...

And now here you allege that Page and Bonzo "stole" his drum sound by listening to the opening act on their "New Yardbirds" tour of the States in '68. I'll tell you something, that just sounds nut to me. I may not know Vanilla Fudge, but Bonzo's drum sound is largely a product of studio micing and slap-back echo (and a right foot heavier than a Buick).


C'mon ... Led Zeppelin I is a beautifully recorded record with a full, layered sound unlike anything else in November 1968. Only "Communication Breakdown" sounds thin and whiny like the other bands of the era (and I think it's the only song in their catalog that Jones and Page sang on).
Think of the massive sounding acoustic guitar in 'Babe I'm Gonna Leave You,' or the cavernous cathedral-sounding organ in 'Your Time is Gonna Come' (especially compared to the plastic-sounding Farfisa organs the other bands were using :oyvey:), or the groundbreaking special effects in 'Dazed and Confused." This was POWERFUL STUFF .... this was NEW STUFF!

I don't find it to be all that weak at all....check out that production and drum sound:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3TcCbCi6fpQ&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3TcCbCi6fpQ&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Of course, there's also the well worn story of Appice giving Ludwig a heads up on Bonham because he was so blown away by Appice's drum set and sound:

"When Zeppelin opened for Vanilla Fudge on the band's first US tour in late '86 and early '69, Bonham was bowled over by the appearance and resonance of Appice's kit. "At the time I had the big blonde Ludwig kit with the 26" double bass drums and the big toms," explains Appice "When John saw that kit, he kind of flipped out. He said he'd love to get a Ludwig endorsement and get a kit like that.
I ended up calling Ludwig and told them that Zeppelin was going to be big and this kid John Bonham, you're going to want to endorse him because he was really good and he wants a kit just like mine." I sent them the record and they liked it and they gave him the same kit that I had - two bass drums and everything. We had the two heads on the drums and they were loud!"

http://www.carmineappice.net/pdfs/bonham_traps_autumn-1.pdf

I just posted that quote for general interest...because everyone borrows from everyone else, but that's kinda the point....it wasn't all that innovative. Here with the Vanilla Fudge, you have the very same drum sound and the very same "cavernous cathedral-sounding organ" sound along with the production techniques that Zeppelin would later take to a wider audience and ultimately, to the bank. Really, it doesn't sound all that nuts to me.

And finally, there's this: It seems to me that maybe ... just maybe ... hmmm... you Hogan, have a prejudice that favors less popular, less known artists. That's fine (in fact it's kinda cool, I sometimes feel "left out" that I know so few of the artists you post in here). But when, in service of this prejudice you repeatedly raise the "specter of conspiracy" to marginalize Page and Zeppelin ... well, you lose me there big time.

I find this rather insulting to be honest. Whilst I'm always on the lookout for new sounds and band's I do not have a prejudice that favors less popular, less known artists....in fact, when it comes to music and artist's work, I've always stressed that the number one priority, no matter how much you happen to love a band or performer, is to be honest about the work they produce. To put forth a honest review, you have to rid yourself of your own personal bias. It may appear to some that I'm harsh on Zeppelin and maybe I am, but I'm also honest about it and fair. You have to be in order to do anything like this otherwise you become nothing but a shill. If anyone doubts me in this area overall or when it comes to Zeppelin in particular, one only needs to go back into this thread and see my album to album response to your post comparing Zep I to other's releases at the time....I believe I give Zep I the nod in a majority of those album to album comparisons, do I not?

[Hogan11]

I promise I won't disappoint. ;D

I'll grant you that Cream basically invented the hard rock sound, though it was basically primitive (that stone age fuzz box sound makes me wince in pain). Had Jack Bruce been less an a-hole, maybe they couldda progressed together. Too bad really, I always wondered why Clapton changed bands on average every 18 months ???

But I really don't think Page was much influenced by Cream ... I don't hear much Cream in Zeppelin, not much at all. Like I said, the hard-rock sound pretty much originated with Cream, but the sound of Cream records was pretty thin, in that they sounded like a trio. Zeppelin, although effectively a trio, sounded like a much larger group, in a much bigger room, that was recorded much better.

To me - MY opinion - is that none of the albums you list sound nearly as good as Led Zeppelin, and only "Black Sabbath" is even close creatively, (though Cream did pioneer the hard rock genre). I don't think Grand Funk or Free or Foghat deserve mention in the company of Zeppelin and Sabbath and Cream. I happen to LIKE all these bands (Cream not so much personally), but from a sound perspective - the technical sound of the recording process, none compare. And from a groundbreaking perspective, only Cream and Sabbath compare, and neither band had even a fraction of Zep's musical range (in fact, neither Cream nor Sabbath had much range at all).

I think you missed the point some. Cream pioneered the power trio playing loud, improv dissemblings on blues themes. The influence of that (loud, improv dissemblings on blues themes) hit all at once basically in '69 with all those albums/band's listed, all arriving with the same concept and then taking it in their own directions in subsequent releases. I don't think it's a stretch to say Zep I fits in that catagory.

..and where in the hell did I ever mention Foghat? ???


Everybody lifted their sources from somebody .... it's only something to frown at when you don't like the artist.

And btw ... the bow means nothing to me, never moved me much. But it was creative to use it ... and just because you can name somebody who used it before him (The Creation's "Eddie Phillips" ... reeeally?!) doesn't mean it's not craetive. You love Clapton, Hogan, well I've got some news for you: Buddy Holly was playing a Strat LONG before Clapton, I think Clapton took the whole Strat idea straight from Holly.

Uh, NO I don't love Eric Clapton. Matter of fact, I had quite the discussion with Watermock a couple of years ago about him....he bought into the whole "Clapton Is God" thing whilst I maintained (and still do) that Cream was dominated in all areas by Jack Bruce. I won't deny Clapton's ability, but I'm far from thrilled by his work since his days with Cream (and that includes Derek).

I believe I covered the lifting of techniques in my last post. Sure it can be creative, but it's not innovative, that's the thing. (and yes, Eddie Phillips, really)
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"Aural equivalent of a bull in a china shop" is a perfect comparison :thumbs: The difference is, I LIKE the way he breaks the china, where you see it as indulgent, I guess.

There's lots of great drumers, but Bonham's THUNDER was perfect for Zeppelin, perfect to contribute to Zep's remake of the face of rock music. Sure, Carmine Appice is terrific. So is Aynsley Dunbar. And Keith Moon. And Ginger Baker is especially great. But only John Bonham is immediately identifiable when you hear him play ... every time Bonham has been sampled by modern artists (Levee Breaks, Moby Dick, whatever), you instantly know it's him. Even on that Aliyah song - when you didn't expect it - BOOM! In an instant you KNEW it was Bonham from When the Levee Breaks. That kind of identifiable cound has gotta count for something, Hogan ... even if you don't personally like it, that is impressive.

I never felt Bonham had the fluidity that the other drummers I mentioned had and I personally perfer the nimbleness as opposed to the labored in drummers.

(You might be interested in this: By all accounts, Bonham was always fairly obsessed with Ginger Baker, felt insecure and quite challenged by him. It was after seeing Cream in London and driving back to Headly Grange to continue work on IV, that a grumbling Bonham, muttering under his breath 'I'll show that bloke Baker something," that he picked up two drumsticks in each hand and started banging the drums so preternaturally hard, that Page raced out to the van to tell them to start the tape - then breathlessly returned to throw on his axe and play along. The two sticks in each hand is where the song "Four Sticks" got its name ;D)

I actually have heard of this somewhere before, but not in many years.

[alkemical]

I love baker's work.

[BroncoBuff]

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You're joking, right? The snare that opens this song sounds like a junior high kid in a marching band ... even when they get rolling, the bass drum sounds thick, but it's mic'd very poorly, and the cymbals sound hoooorible. And Hogan, the organ is exactly the plastic Farfisa organ I was making fun of!!

No offense, but I might actually be giving you too much credit. Have you actually listened to the organ sounds on Led Zeppelin 1? Do you know what a cheap Farfisa organ sounds like? Sorry, but the snare, the bass, the cymbals and the organ ... you actually made my point for me with this song. That song has no business being compared to Led Zeppelin I.

[Hogan11]

You're joking, right? The snare that opens this song sounds like a junior high kid in a marching band ... even when they get rolling, the bass drum sounds thick, but it's mic'd very poorly, and the cymbals sound hoooorible. And Hogan, the organ is exactly the plastic Farfisa organ I was making fun of!!

No offense, but I might actually be giving you too much credit. Have you actually listened to the organ sounds on Led Zeppelin 1? Do you know what a cheap Farfisa organ sounds like? Sorry, but the snare, the bass, the cymbals and the organ ... you actually made my point for me with this song. That song has no business being compared to Led Zeppelin I.

1) That's not a farfisa, it's a Hammond.....are you sure you know what the difference is? Maybe I gave you too much credit to look at this stuff honestly.

2) That's the very same drum kit and bass drum sound recorded a full three years earlier, Morton's production may've been refined some in the time gap between the two records, but the germ of the overall drum sound is there whether you want to admit it or not.

[BroncoBuff]

Sounds like a Farfisa to me ... seriously, it does. Anybody wanna weigh in? I'm talking :15 seconds to :50 of the song ... even the organ solo at 1:40 sounds "plastic."(maybe it's the "Farfisa" setting on a B3? :~ohyah!:)

Seriously though, the Gregg Allman, Booker T Jones, John Paul Jones, Three Dog Night, Ray Manzarek, Tom Scholz, right up to today's Hammond players like 'Danger Mouse' from Gnarls Barkley ... their Hammond sounds are much fuller. That just doesn't sound like a Hammond.

[Hogan11]

Sounds like a Farfisa to me ... seriously, it does. Anybody wanna weigh in? I'm talking :15 seconds to :50 of the song ... even the organ solo at 1:40 sounds "plastic."(maybe it's the "Farfisa" setting on a B3? :~ohyah!:)

Seriously though, the Gregg Allman, Booker T Jones, John Paul Jones, Three Dog Night, Ray Manzarek, Tom Scholz, right up to today's Hammond players like 'Danger Mouse' from Gnarls Barkley ... their Hammond sounds are much fuller. That just doesn't sound like a Hammond.

Seriously, this is almost as big an error on your part as the notion that I was some kind of Clapton lover. It's pretty unmistakable if you ask me and the Fudge was well known for it's hammond organ heavy sound. Here's a link to Mark Stein's bio just in case I'm called into question on it again http://www.vanillafudge.com/person1.htm
He never used a farfisa, period.

And, for the record, not only can I and do I know the difference between the two organ's sounds, but I actually perfer the farfisa sound to that of the hammond.

[BroncoBuff]

I think you missed the point some. Cream pioneered the power trio playing loud, improv dissemblings on blues themes. The influence of that (loud, improv dissemblings on blues themes) hit all at once basically in '69 with all those albums/band's listed, all arriving with the same concept and then taking it in their own directions in subsequent releases. I don't think it's a stretch to say Zep I fits in that catagory.
What point am I missing? I acknowledge Cream pioneered the heavy sound, and Zeppelin took the bare bones of that. (And to the extent it is part of your description, the "trio" aspect seems to me not relevant, # of members in the band doesn't matter, at least not compared to the music. Zep was effectively a trio anyway).

Part of the disconnect here is definitions: "Sound" means two things:
1) sound = style, i.e. power blues-rock
2) sound = recording / producing / mixing quality

1) Yes, Zeppelin took the "heavy" sound from Cream, agreed. But they transported it light years ahead ... I don't think Cream could have ever come up with a Dazed and Confused or Whole Lotta Love or Babe I'm Gonna Leave You.

2) Jimmy Page was a wizard producer/engineer, and Zeppelin I sounds ("sound" #2 definition) significantly better than all the others, light years better imo. I guess a way to express this is: Cream sounds a bit like they were recorded playing live with one mic above the instruments and one mic for the singer. In mono. Listen to the acoustic guitar in 'Babe I'm Gonna Leave You.' cream could have never, and I mean never managed such a thick, full sound. Zeppelin I was recorded with dozens of mics, overdubs, and a lush full sound. As I said above, your Vanilla Fudge example makes this point for me ... the sound (#2 definition) of that Vanilla Fudge song kinda sucks.


...and where in the hell did I ever mention Foghat? ???
You didn't. I just thought it was funny to throw them in there. I laughed anyway ... :~ohyah!:

Unfair tactic I know. (I think they call it ... "subtraction by addition" ;D)


Uh, NO I don't love Eric Clapton. Matter of fact, I had quite the discussion with Watermock a couple of years ago about him....he bought into the whole "Clapton Is God" thing whilst I maintained (and still do) that Cream was dominated in all areas by Jack Bruce. I won't deny Clapton's ability, but I'm far from thrilled by his work since his days with Cream (and that includes Derek).
I guess you didn't say you loved Clapton, okay.


I believe I covered the lifting of techniques in my last post. Sure it can be creative, but it's not innovative, that's the thing. (and yes, Eddie Phillips, really)
I have no problem saying Page got the idea to use a bow from somebody else.



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GAWD ... that short-haired blonde off the top of that video is hot.


Bonham had the fluidity that the other drummers I mentioned had and I personally perfer the nimbleness as opposed to the labored in drummers.
Totally cool ... he was NOT fluid. I seriously doubt he was setting up a jam session with Miles Davis :~ohyah!:



(Referring Bonham's obsession with Ginger Baker): I've heard of this somewhere before, but not in many years.
Yeah, I read that in "The Making of Led Zeppelin IV."

Remind me, Hogan ... how many other bands have had an entire books written about the recording process of one of their albums? hmmm...

[BroncoBuff]

2) That's the very same drum kit and bass drum sound recorded a full three years earlier, Morton's production may've been refined some in the time gap between the two records, but the germ of the overall drum sound is there whether you want to admit it or not.
No way do I "admit it." Appice drives that thing pretty powerfully, but the sound (definition #2) is really not so good.

The marching snare off the top of that song is putrid really, compared to the recorded sound of Bonham's drums (again, I'm referring to "sound" Definition #2 in my post above) … if Jimmy had heard that Appice snare sound off the top there from behind the glass on the Zep I sessions, he would’ve said, “Whoa, whoa! We’ve got a problem here.” I’m serious Hogan, that snare sound would have been unacceptable, it NEVER wouldda made its way onto the vinyl.

And the crash cymbals at 1:45 and beyond … puh-leeeeease! They sound hooorible, and they overdrive the channel too, they’re “in the red,” something that wouldda never happened to seasoned studio master Pagey. (listen @ 6:20 and beyond too … those crash cymbals are horribly mic’ed and ridiculously overdriven)

And then after those cymbals, the organ again at 2:30 … that is a FARFISA! (Actually, that being a Farfisa is the best possible scenario, because if that’s the best sound they could get out of a Hammond, somebody goofed up.)

[BroncoBuff]

or the record, not only can I and do I know the difference between the two organ's sounds, but I actually perfer the farfisa sound to that of the hammond.
I'm sure you know the difference, wouldn't have mentioned the brand unless I knew you did.

And it's cool to LIKE Farfisas. Heck, Pink Floyd used them alot...

But listen to the organ at 1:20 to 2:00, and then 2:30 and beyond. It might not be a Farfisa brand, but if that's a Hammond, somebody f'd up - or else puled the B3 stops into "Farfisa" mode. ???

[Hogan11]

What point am I missing?

I acknowledge Cream pioneered the heavy sound, and Zeppelin took the bare bones of that. (And to the extent it is part of your description, the "trio" aspect seems to me not relevant, # of members in the band doesn't matter, at least not compared to the music. Zep was effectively a trio anyway).

Part of the disconnect here is definitions: "Sound" means two things:
1) sound = style, i.e. power blues-rock
2) sound = recording / producing / mixing quality

1) Yes, Zeppelin took the "heavy" sound from Cream, agreed. But they transported it light years ahead ... I don't think Cream could have ever come up with a Dazed and Confused or Whole Lotta Love or Babe I'm Gonna Leave You.

You basically rephrased what I said in the paragraph you were responding to:

The influence of that (loud, improv dissemblings on blues themes) hit all at once basically in '69 with all those albums/band's listed, all arriving with the same concept and then taking it in their own directions in subsequent releases. I don't think it's a stretch to say Zep I fits in that catagory.

.2) Jimmy Page was a wizard producer/engineer, and Zeppelin I sounds ("sound" #2 definition) significantly better than all the others, light years better imo. I guess a way to express this is: Cream sounds a bit like they were recorded playing live with one mic above the instruments and one mic for the singer. In mono. Listen to the acoustic guitar in 'Babe I'm Gonna Leave You.' cream could have never, and I mean never managed such a thick, full sound. Zeppelin I was recorded with dozens of mics, overdubs, and a lush full sound. As I said above, your Vanilla Fudge example makes this point for me ... the sound (#2 definition) of that Vanilla Fudge song kinda sucks.

You're comparing production techniques over the span of years here and you can't really do that because the equiptment evoloved at such a rapid rate during that time that anything recorded in '66 & '67 would sound obsolete by '69 & '70. The Fudge album was recorded in '66, released in '67 and was known as the heaviest sounding record at that time....given the relationship between the bands, don't you think it's possible that they took the sound of that record (recording / producing / mixing quality, etc) and used it for their own only with state of the art equiptment three years later? Of course the sound would be vastly improved due to the time span and the improvement in recording equiptment, but that doesn't negate the influence. It's kinda the same as Appice turning Bonham on to Ludwig drums.



You didn't. I just thought it was funny to throw them in there. I laughed anyway ... :~ohyah!:

Unfair tactic I know. (I think they call it ... "subtraction by addition" ;D)

That used to be known as a "pulling a Mock".

I guess you didn't say you loved Clapton, okay.

Yeah, I think you got me confused with Roh on that one....I was miffed by that given the go around I had with Mock on that years ago.



I have no problem saying Page got the idea to use a bow from somebody else.

Okay, that was the point....cool enough.

GAWD ... that short-haired blonde off the top of that video is hot.

They knew how to pick the audience members back then for sure...those old clips from that time are loaded with women like that


Totally cool ... he was NOT fluid. I seriously doubt he was setting up a jam session with Miles Davis :~ohyah!:

Yeah, fluidity is big with me



Yeah, I read that in "The Making of Led Zeppelin IV."

Remind me, Hogan ... how many other bands have had an entire books written about the recording process of one of their albums? hmmm...

...but that's not the record in question here Buff. :D

[Hogan11]

No way do I "admit it." Appice drives that thing pretty powerfully, but the sound (definition #2) is really not so good.

The marching snare off the top of that song is putrid really, compared to the recorded sound of Bonham's drums (again, I'm referring to "sound" Definition #2 in my post above) … if Jimmy had heard that Appice snare sound off the top there from behind the glass on the Zep I sessions, he would’ve said, “Whoa, whoa! We’ve got a problem here.” I’m serious Hogan, that snare sound would have been unacceptable, it NEVER wouldda made its way onto the vinyl.

And the crash cymbals at 1:45 and beyond … puh-leeeeease! They sound hooorible, and they overdrive the channel too, they’re “in the red,” something that wouldda never happened to seasoned studio master Pagey. (listen @ 6:20 and beyond too … those crash cymbals are horribly mic’ed and ridiculously overdriven)

And then after those cymbals, the organ again at 2:30 … that is a FARFISA! (Actually, that being a Farfisa is the best possible scenario, because if that’s the best sound they could get out of a Hammond, somebody goofed up.)

I really don't understand why you're having such a hard time with this...Bonham is using the very same set that Appice uses, check that link I posted again for the story on that...the same set of Ludwigs. You're also trying to compare production that had been improved upon three years removed from the Fudge album. That cannot be done fairly.

and finally, no farfisas were used on that or any other Fudge record....do I really have to pile up links to prove that to you? :notthissh :deadhorse

[BroncoBuff]

You basically rephrased what I said in the paragraph you were responding to
I guess we basically agree on that part then.



You're comparing production techniques over the span of years here and you can't really do that because the equiptment evoloved at such a rapid rate during that time that anything recorded in '66 & '67 would sound obsolete by '69 & '70. The Fudge album was recorded in '66, released in '67 and was known as the heaviest sounding record at that time....given the relationship between the bands, don't you think it's possible that they took the sound of that record (recording / producing / mixing quality, etc) and used it for their own only with state of the art equiptment three years later?
Very very possible ... and in a way, you're acknowledging Zep I was at least recorded better. The quality of equipment progressed rapidly in those 2-3 years (watch that Tom Dowd movie!!!!)

And yes, I'm certain Page borrowed from their recording styles. BUt Page was a major studio veteran, he played on everybody's records (EVERYbody's records, even the Stones). So Page learned a million and one things froma million and one sources about recording.


That used to be known as a "pulling a Mock".
Now listen Hogan, I realize you prefer these other British bands, the Stones, Who, Floyd, Peter and Gordon, but I really think you should consider ... ROFL!


Yeah, I think you got me confused with Roh on that one....I was miffed by that given the go around I had with Mock on that years ago.


They knew how to pick the audience members back then for sure...those old clips from that time are loaded with women like that
No kidding .... GAWD is she something. Danish or what was that language, German?


...but that's not the record in question here Buff. :D
No it's not, that was just a little dig. But you'll admit I have mostly avoided using the immense popularity and sales of Zeppelin as part of my arguments.

But man, they did sell alotta albums. I think they're #1 all-time in total sales as ratio to number of albums released (just 9 including Coda).

[BroncoBuff]

and finally, no farfisas were used on that or any other Fudge record....do I really have to pile up links to prove that to you? :notthissh :deadhorse
I believe you ... I later edited my post on the organ stuff about 3 up ^^

[Hogan11]

I guess we basically agree on that part then.

Very very possible ... and in a way, you're acknowledging Zep I was at least recorded better. The quality of equipment progressed rapidly in those 2-3 years (watch that Tom Dowd movie!!!!)

And yes, I'm certain Page borrowed from their recording styles. BUt Page was a major studio veteran, he played on everybody's records (EVERYbody's records, even the Stones). So Page learned a million and one things froma million and one sources about recording.

Okay, two more issues we can put to bed now :thumbsup:

Now listen Hogan, I realize you prefer these other British bands to Zeppelin, the Stones, Who, Floyd, Peter and Gordon, but I really think you should consider ... ROFL!

Oh Man...don't get me started Ha!

No kidding .... GAWD is she something. Danish or what was that language, German?)

German...one very attractive Frauline indeed.

[FADERPROOF]

My dad still tells me of the first time he saw Zeppelin in concert, they opened for Vanilla Fudge before they were known and as LZ1 was coming out.

Said they came on stage and the presence was unbelievable, and after they closed set the entire crowd was walking around going "holy ****! Did you just hear that band?" said he was sold from that point on.

[ElwayMD]

Only thing that beats cranking up some Zep on a weekend is putting The Who on and trying to figure out how in the hell Keith Moon didn't pass out and die every time he sat in front of a drum kit. John Bonham may have had the heavy foot but damn Keith Moon had insane skills. He was all over the kit and still kept the tempo (and of course he helped name LZ so the circle is complete). Also, listening to "The Ox" on bass is amazing they have an isolated audio of him playing "Won't get Fooled Again" on YouTube and his bassline is just sick.

The Who paved the way for so much of the rock we appreciate today it's insane to think that My Generation was being written while Lennon and McCartney were still trying singing their "teenie-bopper" songs. Now I just wish they would retire, Roger is starting to sound like his lungs are going to explode every time he tries to hit a high note.