Quinn vs Young-Leinart-Cutler [Archive] - The Orange Mane

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TheChamp24

04-08-2007, 12:39 AM

Well, I'm in an argument with a friend about if Quinn was in last years draft or Young, Leinart and Cutler in this years draft, that Quinn would be at worse the 2nd QB selected, meaning he would be selected above Leinart and Cutler.
First, I can't find anything that says anything of the sort on the net from last years draft experts, so does anyone know if Quinn was in last year, that he would've been selected before Leinart and Cutler?

Personally, I don't hold Quinn in very high regard, reminds me kinda of Joey Harrington, decent but not great.

Clockwork Orange

04-08-2007, 12:45 AM

No way he'd have been taken ahead of Leinart. Cutler probably, but Leinart's pedigree was far better coming out of college than Quinn's.

Drek

04-08-2007, 12:56 AM

No way he'd have been taken ahead of Leinart. Cutler probably, but Leinart's pedigree was far better coming out of college than Quinn's.

And Quinn's physical gifts are far above Leinarts.

Also, Quinn is the one who was coached by a three time SB winning coach, hard to argue with that pedigree.

I don't think Quinn would have been the #2 QB in last year's draft class, but thats Quinn as a junior. Quinn today would be a very close match up with Leinart last year. Leinart has the history of winning, Quinn has the arm strength and athleticism.

How good they'll be as pros comes down to the single most important characteristic for all NFL players, dedication.

Xenos

04-08-2007, 01:25 AM

And Quinn's physical gifts are far above Leinarts.

Also, Quinn is the one who was coached by a three time SB winning coach, hard to argue with that pedigree.

I don't think Quinn would have been the #2 QB in last year's draft class, but thats Quinn as a junior. Quinn today would be a very close match up with Leinart last year. Leinart has the history of winning, Quinn has the arm strength and athleticism.

How good they'll be as pros comes down to the single most important characteristic for all NFL players, dedication.

The main knock against Quinn is his inconsistency. He seems to be less accurate when there's no pressure on him. Don't me ask me why. He just does it for some odd reason. It's like unless there's some guy forcing him to focus, he can't seem to get the ball to his man at all.

watermock

04-08-2007, 01:33 AM

Both Leinart and Quinn hurt themselves by not coming out early. Not that I don't admire it, but it's a fact. Both would of been taken first, Quinn might drop to 7 and the HornHeads. Leinart would of probably gone #1 if he had come out.

Thanks Leinart, we probably wouldn't of gotten Cutler without your help.

BroncoBuff

04-08-2007, 01:43 AM

And Quinn's physical gifts are far above Leinarts.

Also, Quinn is the one who was coached by a three time SB winning coach, hard to argue with that pedigree.
Word.

Quinn - as a physical specimin and in arm strength - is superior to either Leinart or Cutler (sorry). He's a huge (6'4" 230), powerful, rocket-armed, SB-coach pedigreed leader who played against all the top schools in the nation every Saturday and, save for an illegal Reggie Bush shove - beat every of of them. He'd be #1 overall in any draft without Calvin Johnson.

But he's a Class A jerk too ... JaMarcus Russell and some of the other rooks won't even talk to him he's such a d!ck.

AHEM!... Ryan Leaf ... AHEM! Jeff George .. AHEM! Excuse me.

Drek

04-08-2007, 01:45 AM

The main knock against Quinn is his inconsistency. He seems to be less accurate when there's no pressure on him. Don't me ask me why. He just does it for some odd reason. It's like unless there's some guy forcing him to focus, he can't seem to get the ball to his man at all.

I'd say his biggest problem is the perception of elite arm strength, when its really more like B+. His deep ball floats too much and he overthrows when trying to thread the needle on intermediate passes, leading to a lot of balls turfing it before a guy can even make a play.

Thing is, its all fixable, and most of it is minor. He's the most ready to start of the QBs the past two years except Leinart, and he's got a much higher ceiling than him, close to Cutler's.

BroncoBuff

04-08-2007, 01:48 AM

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/8932/41878583cr4.jpg

Xenos

04-08-2007, 01:52 AM

Word.

Quinn - as a physical specimin and in arm strength - is superior to either Leinart or Cutler (sorry). He's a huge (6'4" 230), powerful, rocket-armed, SB-coach pedigreed leader who played against all the top schools in the nation every Saturday and, save for an illegal Reggie Bush shove - beat every of of them. He'd be #1 overall in any draft without Calvin Johnson.

But he's a Class A jerk too ... JaMarcus Russell and some of the other rooks won't even talk to him he's such a d!ck.

AHEM!... Ryan Leaf ... AHEM! Jeff George .. AHEM! Excuse me.
What are talking about in terms of arm strength? I can buy having a stronger arm than Leinert, but Cutler? As Drek already mentioned, his deep balls tend to float too much, and he has problems on intermediate routes. He also doesn't have Leinert's accuracy.

watermock

04-08-2007, 02:01 AM

BroncoBuff

04-08-2007, 02:03 AM

Read it again ... I meant as a total package he was ahead of both Leinart and Cutler. I am not alone in that view by a longshot (except maybe on a Broncos or Cardinals message board :~ohyah!:)

watermock

04-08-2007, 02:06 AM

So why did Cutler pitch an 88 and Leinart a 74 when we were playing recievers either hurt or rookies?

DenverDuo

04-08-2007, 02:09 AM

Stronger arm is comical after watching that rocket to Walker across the body. It doesn't matter if Quinn might throw it an extra 3 yards in some contest. Jay can make ALL the throws. Anyone who saw the Walker pass knows it.

That was Elwayesque.

Orgasmic... (http://s28.photobucket.com/albums/c247/REB65/?action=view&current=CutlertoWalkerBomb.flv)

I don't know about Quinn. I'm leery of him. However, I think he'd probably be first QB selected in the 2006 draft just because his stockl was so much higher back then.
No substance here. Move along.:giggle:

watermock

04-08-2007, 02:17 AM

I'm not sure I have ever seen a better throw. He laid it right in his hands like a baby right in full stride and double covered.

There is a pass late in a you tube where he throws the ball so hard it's hard to even see it on a slant to the end zone. At Vandy.

BroncoBuff

04-08-2007, 02:35 AM

Read it again ... I meant as a total package he was ahead of both Leinart and Cutler. I am not alone in that view by a longshot (except maybe on a Broncos or Cardinals message board :~ohyah!:)

Come on guys ... I'm a Broncos fan, too, but facts are facts - and nobody put Cutler or Leinart #2 on the draft board last year. I'll say it again - Quinn is #1 in most any draft ranking without a freak like Calvin Johnson:

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/111/84876929wz2.jpg

http://www.draftdaddy.com/prospects/rankedSeniors.cfm

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7193/85773246lu7.jpg

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/sub/rankings.html

He's even ranked AHEAD of Johnson here ... although this Alllen Trieu guy should be commited at once, not just for Johnson at #2, but for Lynch ahead of Peterson:

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/7361/22313222be9.jpg
http://www.draftshowcase.com/07Top100Prospects.htm

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/8129/80775067yn0.jpg

Here's one where he's #5 ... the lowest I've seen him. Leinart was ranked as high as #5 last year in a couple places I think - but it was his highest ranking - while this is Quinn's lowest that I could find right now ... (but I have seen him down at #10 I think in a couppla places):

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/5339/14802886hc2.jpg

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft07/index

Play2win

04-08-2007, 02:43 AM

What I Loved about Brady Quinn is how he truly excelled against the tougher competition...

Dukes

04-08-2007, 02:47 AM

At this point, I'll take Brad Quinn over Russell any day of the week.

BroncoBuff

04-08-2007, 02:47 AM

Man-Goblin

04-08-2007, 02:50 AM

Come on guys ... I'm a Broncos fan, too, but facts are facts - and nobody put Cutler or Leinart #2 on the draft board last year. I'll say it again - Quinn is #1 in most any draft ranking without a freak like Calvin Johnson:

Buff, c'mon. Hollywood Matt was the consensus #1 up until about this time last year. Plus, there is growing speculation that Quinn's stock could drop dramatically in this draft if dominoes fall correctly. Russell is widely considered a much better pick than Quinn

I have no idea what some people are thinking in this thread, but while Russell may be a better 'prospect' than the 3 QBs taken early last year, Quinn isn't better than Young, Leinart, or Cutler.

Kaylore

04-08-2007, 02:51 AM

Read it again ... I meant as a total package he was ahead of both Leinart and Cutler. I am not alone in that view by a longshot (except maybe on a Broncos or Cardinals message board :~ohyah!:)

Sorry but you are so, so wrong, and you are alone in you're assessment. You ask pro scouts today and they'll tell you that all three of last years' quarterbacks are superior to both Quinn and Russell for a variety of reasons.

Cutler's arm is better and he played against even superior teams than Quinn ever had too with inferior talent. He's also just as strong but Cutler has the superior arm to Quinn hands down. Only Russell has the kind of arm to compete with Cutler and neither of the other two is as accurate as Cutler.

Vince Young pretty much won the national championship for his team all by himself. He has way more clutch play than either Quinn or Russell, he's more athletic than either of them, he's taller and he didn't show up to the combine with man boobs like Russell or managed to get benched because of poor play like Quinn.

Leinert doesn't have the physical tools of any of the others, and is the only player I would entertain arguing was not as good as the two this year. He's similar to Quinn sans the physical skills, but Leinert is a more polished QB and a better decision maker than Quinn is. He also has the major accolades and decent size to go with his name unlike Quinn or Russell.

Russell is a junior which means he's raw. He's also got weight issues and doesn't always make the best choices. He has a big arm but threw to some great receivers who bailed him out a lot. I don't like his footwork or his work ethic which can be a problem when you need a guy to study film.

Quinn is a better QB as a senior and also a fine physical specimen. Unfortunately he also isn't the most accurate QB and he has shown some issues of going into a hole and not coming out. He made some clutch plays and is more experienced as a senior. However he played poorly enough last year to no longer be considered for a Heisman and eventually even got himself benched.

How anyone can argue that this set of QB's is better is beyond me. I don't think they'll necessarily bust, but last years' top three were all some of the best football players to come out of college in a long time and these guys are more of that "second tier" of top QB's.

Kaylore

04-08-2007, 03:08 AM

Orgasmic... (http://s28.photobucket.com/albums/c247/REB65/?action=view&current=CutlertoWalkerBomb.flv)

I don't know about Quinn. I'm leery of him. However, I think he'd probably be first QB selected in the 2006 draft just because his stockl was so much higher back then.
There is that possiblity, but he had accomplished even less at that point really so you just never know in that instance.

One thing people have to remember is that last years' draft was one of the deepest drafts in maybe the last five years, and it was particularly top heavy. It featured:

One of most incredible running backs to come along in Reggie Bush.
One of the most coveted defensive ends in Mario Williams
The most athletic and explosive tight end the draft had ever seen in Vernon Davis.
D'Brik was considered as much a lock as Joe Thomas, except Ferguson didn't have injury history.
A.J. Hawk, an athletic super-freak of a linebacker.

Then you look at all the superstars that came out of the draft last year in all the rounds: Jones-Drew, DeMeco Ryans, Colston, all three QB's, Mangold, Devin Hester, McNeil.

I mean it was a freak show of talented players that really helped their teams. The pool this year is nowhere near as deep or as talented except for some positions like Defensive End and Safety. So for people to point and say "well look how high he is going in this draft" doesn't mean anything as it really doesn't speak to the other draft class and their comparative talent level. Remember Alex Smith was number one overall two years ago, and that class was pretty lame.

Drek

04-08-2007, 09:44 AM

What I Loved about Brady Quinn is how he truly excelled against the tougher competition...

Yeah, that same great quality is represented in other NFL stars like Peyton Manning, Brett Favre, Ben Roetslithberger, John Elway, and many more.

Team success at the collegiate level is just about the worst characteristic to measure any player by. Anyone who has watched Notre Dame over the last few years could clearly see that they were physically outclassed in all their major games. None of their CBs had the speed to cover a top end WR, none of their OLs could reliably hold up against a quality pass rusher, and teams exploited both of those to create large victories over them.

Despite that Quinn had all but won the '06 game against USC until the refs decided to hand it over by not calling penalties against USC for their final drive, most notably Leinart's push into the end zone.

Quinn doesn't have Cutler's arm, but its a fair sight better than Leinart's, comparable to Vince Young's. He's a prototypical QB, he's very similar to Peyton Manning only more athletic and his dedication is entirely unproven. Of course that dedication is the difference between being Peyton or Eli.

I don't have any doubt that Quinn will be a quality NFL starter, if he lands in the right system and dedicates himself to football he could be a great QB.

cmhargrove

04-08-2007, 09:59 AM

I would definitely take Quinn over Russell as well. However, all these arguments are usually flushed out when great players go to bad teams. Those guys either bring the others up to their level (sometimes forcing them) or they get buried in the shuffle of "decent" QB's. That's what makes this year so interesting for our boy Jay (and actually for Lienert).
Jay has been bringing up his bad team for several years at Vandy, now he gets to really let loose with a great supporting cast - he should excel, he is expected to.
Lienert has one of the best skilled position groups with him, they just need a better O-line.
It will be interesting to see who Quinn falls to and if he has to be "great" from the start, or if he will have a good supporting cast. He has a lot of the basic tangibles, but I expect his development to be more of a three years cycle ALA Alex Smith. I don't expect him to be a difference maker as much as Vince Young.
Speaking of Vince, I am much happier with Cutler in the long run, but none of the three rookies made more of an immediate game changing impact as Young did. He actually loses some supporting cast this year so his role is even more important.
It will be a fun year to watch...

Jens1893

04-08-2007, 10:30 AM

Quinn exceled against "quality" opposition?

2005 WIN v #3 Michigan that finished unranked - 19/30 140 2-0
2005 LOSS v #1 USC - 19/35 264 1-1 plus a rushing TD with less than 2 minutes left that could´ve won it
2005 LOSS v #3 Ohio State - 29/45 286 0-0

2006 LOSS v #11 Michigan - 24/48 234 3-3
2006 LOSS v #3 USC - 22/45 274 3-0
2006 LOSS v #3 LSU - 15/35 148 2-2
TOTALS 128-238 % 0.53 1,346 11-6

The numbers aren´t bad, but exceling is something else IMO.

watermock

04-08-2007, 10:42 AM

I would just assume take Beck or Stanton over either honestly later.

Jens1893

04-08-2007, 10:45 AM

I would just assume take Beck or Stanton over either honestly later.

PFW has Beck ranked as the ninth best QB.

Drek

04-08-2007, 11:50 AM

Steve Sewell

04-08-2007, 11:54 AM

azbroncfan

04-08-2007, 12:18 PM

Who honestly cares?

Kaylore

04-08-2007, 02:53 PM

Who honestly cares?

Talking football on a football forum? What losers!

footstepsfrom#27

04-08-2007, 05:45 PM

Quinn isn't even the #1 QB in this draft, let alone last year's. He's roughly the same size as Cutler, but what some consider an advantage in having Weiss coaching him...I consider a dissadvantage. You have to consider the fact that at least some portion of Quinn's success in college has to be attributed to coaching. Therefore, he's unlikely to benefit much more from NFL coaching than he already has in terms of his topside potential...certainly not as much as a guy like Cutler moving from Vanderbilt, which ran a veer option a good part of the time and who now finds himself in a Mike Shanahan coached offense. Quinn is physically superior to Leinert only among the top three QB's selected last year, and ranks behind Russell this year. I expect him to either go 2nd to Detroit or else watch the Lions trade down several spots and still get him. His performance against top notch competition was less than impressive IMO and his true value in this draft is probably somewhere near the 10th pick overall. In last year's draft he might have fallen to 18 or 20.

watermock

04-08-2007, 05:59 PM

He will be taken by the HornHeads at 7.

BroncoBuff

04-08-2007, 06:14 PM

what some consider an advantage in having Weiss coaching him...I consider a dissadvantage. You have to consider the fact that at least some portion of Quinn's success in college has to be attributed to coaching. Therefore, he's unlikely to benefit much more from NFL coaching than he already has in terms of his topside potential...certainly not as much as a guy like Cutler moving from Vanderbilt, which ran a veer option a good part of the time and who now finds himself in a Mike Shanahan coached offense.
Very good points ....

And to Khan and Man-Goblin, I see your points too. I think I was placing too much emphasis on Quinn's #2-4 overall rankings and comparing them to Cutler. Of course, such rankings are all reletive to the handful of other draftees in the Top 10. And it's true Quinn and Cutler are about the same size - and Cutler does have a stronger arm. I'll even grant you Leinart is more accurate than Quinn.

But I still believe that the "jerk factor" might be at work here - a fear of a Jeff George/Ryan Leaf type guy.

BTW - none of this is any secret - I saw on NFL Network how Quinn has ticked off Russell and several other top guys, and that few even speak to him now. That gathering of the Top 7 guys in New York for draft week might get pretty interesting ...

TheChamp24

04-08-2007, 06:15 PM

I don't think Quinn will have spectacular success, he will be similar to Harrington but a little better, maybe somewhat to Carr's career so far. Nothing great, nothing piss poor.

azbroncfan

04-08-2007, 06:49 PM

Talking football on a football forum? What losers!
It's just all speculation and he would of went between Leinart and Cutler. Now would he of been a bronco or not, now continue to speculate.

shakenbake

04-08-2007, 06:52 PM

speaking of Vince, I saw him this weekend and he looks a lot stronger.

cmhargrove

04-08-2007, 07:18 PM

speaking of Vince, I saw him this weekend and he looks a lot stronger.

Strong enough to carry the whole team on his shoulders???

It will be fun to play them this year. Cutler vs. Young. Travis Henry vs. his old team. Pac Man Jones bustin' a cap in somebody's ass...

DenverDuo

04-08-2007, 07:27 PM

Strong enough to carry the whole team on his shoulders???

It will be fun to play them this year. Cutler vs. Young. Travis Henry vs. his old team. Pac Man Jones bustin' a cap in somebody's ass...

Brandon Marshall can do some more blocking...

broncogary

04-08-2007, 08:44 PM

I don't think Quinn will have spectacular success, he will be similar to Harrington but a little better, maybe somewhat to Carr's career so far. Nothing great, nothing piss poor.

Well, considering that Carr was an absolute bust, that's not saying much.

TheChamp24

04-08-2007, 08:51 PM

Well, considering that Carr was an absolute bust, that's not saying much.

I wouldn't say complete bust. I think Quinn will post similar numbers. Meaning, a decent completion % of 60, nearly equal TD's and interceptions and average passing yards.
In the end, not every 1st round QB will flurish. I just think Quinn will go down as a bust if he is picked in the top 10.

broncogary

04-08-2007, 09:08 PM

I wouldn't say complete bust. I think Quinn will post similar numbers. Meaning, a decent completion % of 60, nearly equal TD's and interceptions and average passing yards.
In the end, not every 1st round QB will flurish. I just think Quinn will go down as a bust if he is picked in the top 10.

Well, the feeling in Houston is that Carr's a bust.

Xenos

04-08-2007, 10:16 PM

Very good points ....

And to Khan and Man-Goblin, I see your points too. I think I was placing too much emphasis on Quinn's #2-4 overall rankings and comparing them to Cutler. Of course, such rankings are all reletive to the handful of other draftees in the Top 10. And it's true Quinn and Cutler are about the same size - and Cutler does have a stronger arm. I'll even grant you Leinart is more accurate than Quinn.

But I still believe that the "jerk factor" might be at work here - a fear of a Jeff George/Ryan Leaf type guy.

BTW - none of this is any secret - I saw on NFL Network how Quinn has ticked off Russell and several other top guys, and that few even speak to him now. That gathering of the Top 7 guys in New York for draft week might get pretty interesting ...

What exactly did Quinn do to piss them off?

Anyways, Quinn can start his rookie year, while Russell should probably sit a year or two to learn the system and mature as a player. The guy needs to learn the importance of work ethics.
I don't think Quinn will bust to the same degree as Harrington or Carr unless some freakish accident happens. He was just better trained in college as opposed to either of those two guys. That being said, he still has issues like the ones I and the other posters brought up.

Drek

04-08-2007, 11:14 PM

I don't think Quinn will have spectacular success, he will be similar to Harrington but a little better, maybe somewhat to Carr's career so far. Nothing great, nothing piss poor.

I can't help but think anyone making this comparison hasn't watched Quinn play much.

I've been watching college football for a long time, I watched a good amount of Harrington during his senior "Heisman run" year (that was a joke). I've watched a decent amount of Carr. I watched a lot of every QB from last year's class and this one as well. Quinn has a hell of a lot more going for him than most people give him credit for, because they see the Notre Dame hype and pretty boy good looks and then react negatively.

Fact is Quinn has better pocket presence than any collegiate QB I've watched in a long time. He stands tall in the pocket, has the ability to avoid pressure with minimal movement, shrugs off a surprising number of defenders, and will get a quality pass off even in the face of the hit. Harrington never did that, Carr never did that, Leinart and Young never had to do that thanks to starting OLs with NFL talent across the board. Only Cutler had the sack Quinn has in the pocket, and he didn't stay nearly as cool under pressure as Quinn does, rocketing passes off his back foot when Quinn would throw a form perfect pass while getting shoulder pads slammed into his kidneys.

He's got more accuracy and better understanding of touch on his passes than Harrington or Carr ever had. More than Young, Cutler, or Russell too. Only Leinart better understands the concept of the "catchable ball", and thats largely a product of playing with a C+ arm.

He's got an arm that lets him make all the NFL throws. He can't throw rockets like Cutler or Russell, but he can deliver a solid deep pass consistently. He's more athletic than Harrington, Carr, or Leinart. Pretty comparable to Cutler or Alex Smith.

The concept of "too coached" is also unfounded. Successful NFL QBs aren't taught the game as rookies in the pros. They're expected to understand it and be capable of digesting an NFL playbook. Look at the "projects" teams have tried to teach the QB position to. Vick? He's a stellar passer. Culpepper? Yeah, thats consistent mistake free football. Jeff George? We won't even go there.

Fact is, Quinn's experience with Weiss is nothing but a plus because his biggest weaknesses are still fundamental refinements. Weiss left those mostly alone, he had two years with Quinn and needed to get competitive immediately. All Weiss has done is show him how to digest an NFL level playbook at lightening speed while still being a top student double major at one of America's finer collegiate institutions.

For Quinn to be a star he's going to require the right system, some talented complimentary players, and the dedication to commit his life to football. But as far as his measurable and gradeable characteristics he, as a senior, is a comprable prospect to either Leinart or Cutler. He's the middle ground between the two, more NFL ready than Cutler but with more ceiling than Leinart. He'd easily beat out Alex Smith from two years ago, and Harrington or Carr from before that.

He's not a #1 pick in a class with Calvin Johnson in it, he's not that kind of athlete but Russell is, which is why I expect Al-zheimers to go for him and shoot his franchise in the foot again. But Quinn is a great early first round QB selection as he offers you tons of upside with a safety net worst case scenario. He's not a boom/bust but he's not a no ceiling finished product. He'd do very well in Detroit with Martz, Minnesota with Childress, or Miami with Cameron. He should be happy he isn't the #1 pick, no worse fate than trying to break into the league with a rookie HC, locker room troubles, and a senile owner.

youcandoit1687

04-09-2007, 12:01 AM

What I Loved about Brady Quinn is how he truly excelled against the tougher competition...

15 of 35 for like 140 yards against LSU and all of his stats against the other tough competition were late points after reserves were in on defense. Don't fool yourself, at the beginning of games, when it was on the line, he was not very impressive at all.

footstepsfrom#27

04-09-2007, 12:30 AM

The concept of "too coached" is also unfounded. Successful NFL QBs aren't taught the game as rookies in the pros. They're expected to understand it and be capable of digesting an NFL playbook. Look at the "projects" teams have tried to teach the QB position to. Vick? He's a stellar passer. Culpepper? Yeah, thats consistent mistake free football. Jeff George? We won't even go there.
Eh...actually with the exception of Roethlisberger and Marino, they've all pretty much been guys who learned the game as rookies or sometime thereafter.
Fact is, Quinn's experience with Weiss is nothing but a plus because his biggest weaknesses are still fundamental refinements. Weiss left those mostly alone, he had two years with Quinn and needed to get competitive immediately. All Weiss has done is show him how to digest an NFL level playbook at lightening speed while still being a top student double major at one of America's finer collegiate institutions.
Any time a college player at any position, particuarly quarterback, has played through his college career with an unusual advantage you have to factor that into how much ceiling he has. We see it with Nebraska linemen that seem to often max out in the weight room and get as big as they're going to get. We're probably going to see it with Leinert who played in a very talented offense with tremendous support around him, and a former NFL head coach. It should be obvious that if a guy played as well as Cutler and is just now getting NFL coaching, he has more room to grow than a guy who has already had that kind of coaching.

Quinn, IMO...will be a pretty good NFL quarterback, but I saw him play at Notre Dame enough to see both good and bad in his game. I don't think he's a slam dunk or a bust. I think he's probably worth the 10th pick in this draft...a bit lower last year. There are at least 5 players in this draft better than him. Aside from Russell, who I think is a better prospect...Peterson, Johnson, Thomas and Landry are probably all better prospects. Adams and Anderson being defensive ends could go higher because they're pass rushers. I think Detroit can trade down 4-6 spots and still get Quinn.
But as far as his measurable and gradeable characteristics he, as a senior, is a comprable prospect to either Leinart or Cutler. He's the middle ground between the two, more NFL ready than Cutler but with more ceiling than Leinart. He'd easily beat out Alex Smith from two years ago, and Harrington or Carr from before that.
I actually think he's more NFL ready than Leinert, who I believe is over rated due to a great supporting cast at USC and excellent receivers at Arizona...but not as good as Jay, whose performance at Vandy borders on miraculous considering what he had to work with. As for Smith, Harrington or Carr...none of those guys have proven anything in the NFL, though Carr's problems are largely because of a horrible offensive line. I'd expect Quinn to be better than Joey Harrington was if he goes to Detroit.

Kaylore

04-09-2007, 01:23 AM

Quinn isn't even the #1 QB in this draft, let alone last year's. He's roughly the same size as Cutler, but what some consider an advantage in having Weiss coaching him...I consider a dissadvantage.
Why? So he takes to top flight coaching and elevates his game because of it. How does that equate a negative? Did you know most of these guys are going to bust because they can't handle that level of coaching (or any coaching at all) and have made it this far purely on their athletic ability? Would it be better if he wasn't taking coaching well? Or would you prefer a crappier coach was teaching him? How is any of that Brady Quinn's fault?

I agree with Drek that this guy is being over-scouted and really being ripped for no reason at all other than being around to talk about longer than people prefer. The guys is not going to be Joey Harrington. Quinn's a solid prospect, and I'd take him over Russell, personally. (Though I wouldn't take him in the top ten.)

footstepsfrom#27

04-09-2007, 01:57 AM

Why? So he takes to top flight coaching and elevates his game because of it. How does that equate a negative? Did you know most of these guys are going to bust because they can't handle that level of coaching (or any coaching at all) and have made it this far purely on their athletic ability? Would it be better if he wasn't taking coaching well? Or would you prefer a crappier coach was teaching him? How is any of that Brady Quinn's fault?
See the previous post. I didn't say it was "his fault", and "negative" might be to strong a word too...maybe even "disadvantage" is to strong. I'm merely saying that an obvious advantage in college has to be factored in when you consider a player's performance in college and his upside or potential ceiling in the pros. Leinert played with enormous talent around him, and most recognize that as a possible warning sign on his upside...I don't see coaching from Weis as any less of an advantage in college...perhaps more.
I agree with Drek that this guy is being over-scouted and really being ripped for no reason at all other than being around to talk about longer than people prefer. The guys is not going to be Joey Harrington. Quinn's a solid prospect, and I'd take him over Russell, personally. (Though I wouldn't take him in the top ten.)
Russell should stay in school another year because senior QB's tend to be more NFL ready than underclassmen, and second because the Raiders have the top pick and who wants to go there? Even so...you can't coach the size and arm that Russell has. I said in the previous post that Quinn would be better than Harrington...though that's not saying much. I think he's going to be less than Cutler or Young, better than Leinert. That's not exactly downgrading him. He's got a good shot at NFL success IMO, but I still think he belongs at around #10 in this draft.

Kaylore

04-09-2007, 02:09 AM

I've got two words for Jamarcus: Man Boobs!

watermock

04-09-2007, 02:25 AM

This place is famous for picking up catch phrases. Man boobs came from a scouting report a few years ago I think.

youcandoit1687

04-09-2007, 02:38 AM

I've got two words for Jamarcus: Man Boobs!

Khan, you're better than that, JaMarcus doesn't have Man Boobs, he can bench press 335 pounds and throws the ball a mile. Even the mighty Khan would fall to JaMarcus.

Kaylore

04-09-2007, 06:37 AM

Khan, you're better than that, JaMarcus doesn't have Man Boobs, he can bench press 335 pounds and throws the ball a mile. Even the mighty Khan would fall to JaMarcus.

:moon:

I didn't say that's all he had. Just that he has them. And he does. He's overweight.

Drek

04-09-2007, 10:33 AM

Eh...actually with the exception of Roethlisberger and Marino, they've all pretty much been guys who learned the game as rookies or sometime thereafter.
90% of rookie QBs aren't being taught how to go through their progressions, how appropriate arm angle, etc.. The track record for guys that do need that type of work isn't really pretty. Vick, Culpepper, Carr (they tried moving him from a 3/4ths release to a prototypical over the top), Kordell Stewart, Jeff George, etc. are all failed attempts to take the physically gifted and teach them the mental aspects or change their techniques to playing QB. That basically never works. You don't teach NFL rookies how to play QB, you teach them a playbook and how to QB in your system.

Most rookies sit their first year because they aren't prepared for the speed of the NFL game or the added complexity of NFL offenses. Quinn has already been schooled in both, being fire drilled in Weiss' offense for two seasons and having to face top collegiate teams with a significantly less talented, slower team around him.

Any time a college player at any position, particuarly quarterback, has played through his college career with an unusual advantage you have to factor that into how much ceiling he has. We see it with Nebraska linemen that seem to often max out in the weight room and get as big as they're going to get. We're probably going to see it with Leinert who played in a very talented offense with tremendous support around him, and a former NFL head coach. It should be obvious that if a guy played as well as Cutler and is just now getting NFL coaching, he has more room to grow than a guy who has already had that kind of coaching.
Depends on how they've been developed. I don't think Leinart has much upside unless he hits the core exercises like a mad man a la Brees and Brady to build up throwing power. His mechanics throwing the football are tapped out, his footwork is pretty close to optimal for a guy at his athletic level (i.e. not very high), and so he's left just working on his decision making which was already pretty good, he largely needs to just get adjusted to the speed of the NFL game.

Cutler has horrible fundamentals, but he knows how to play football. He forces a lot of passes, he throws off his back foot or from a poor stance, and he fires rockets to pretty much all his receivers. Thats adjustable and Cutler knows how to play QB.

In terms of upside Quinn compares better to Cutler. He's got all the athletic talents you'd want in a pocket passer, but needs to refine his technique to stop overthrowing on tight passes and to take a little air out of his deep passes. He understands how to play QB but we still haven't seen the maximum potential of Quinn's passing ability.

Quinn, IMO...will be a pretty good NFL quarterback, but I saw him play at Notre Dame enough to see both good and bad in his game. I don't think he's a slam dunk or a bust. I think he's probably worth the 10th pick in this draft...a bit lower last year. There are at least 5 players in this draft better than him. Aside from Russell, who I think is a better prospect...Peterson, Johnson, Thomas and Landry are probably all better prospects. Adams and Anderson being defensive ends could go higher because they're pass rushers. I think Detroit can trade down 4-6 spots and still get Quinn.
I won't argue that Quinn isn't the best talent in this draft, he's simply not. Johnson, Peterson, Landry, Thomas, Willis, Adams, and Anderson are exceptionally gifted prospects for their positions. I wouldn't rank Quinn ahead of any of them and only comparable to the last three. Still, you aren't going to get finished products with Vick's athleticism and Leinart's polish. Quinn this year would hold his own with Leinart or Cutler from last year. He wouldn't have as a junior, he'd have been too rough, but he does now.

As for Russell, I personally like him less and less the more I hear. He strikes me as Culpepper minus a year of collegiate development. Not a guy I'd want #1. He's got tons of talent but he's never really shown the understanding of playing QB at the NFL level. He's going to have to be taught that and the NFL isn't the best place to do so.

I actually think he's more NFL ready than Leinert, who I believe is over rated due to a great supporting cast at USC and excellent receivers at Arizona...but not as good as Jay, whose performance at Vandy borders on miraculous considering what he had to work with. As for Smith, Harrington or Carr...none of those guys have proven anything in the NFL, though Carr's problems are largely because of a horrible offensive line. I'd expect Quinn to be better than Joey Harrington was if he goes to Detroit.

We haven't seen a more NFL ready QB than Leinart in a long time. He isn't overrated, he understands all the little things you need to be a QB. He makes the right decisions quickly and throws very catchable passes. He just doesn't have a huge ceiling. He was a solid QB as a rookie on a bad team, he'll be a very good QB for his career, just not great.

Of course his supporting cast plays a role but it always does for every player. Would we be so keen on Cutler if he hadn't had Scheffler or Marshall breaking out with him late last year? Scheffler basically converted two INTs into TDs by flat out stealing from drooling DBs. Marshall single handedly created a TD in Cutler's first start. If it wasn't for them we're looking at a 7/7 INT ratio and probably one less win. Thats not even considering his best WR, Javon Walker.

No player can succeed in the NFL without some talent around them. There is a reason Detroit has so many talented draft picks doing nothing on their roster, they're missing the key players to help them out. Kevin Jones has no line blocking for him, Roy Williams and the other WRs have no QB. You'll find the same huge gaps on the rosters of the Raiders, Browns, and other bottom tier teams.