Who do we pick at #21?

[bdv]

Assuming we don't move up or down in the draft, and being realistic about who might be available to us at #21:

Name your top five (or less) choices for our first round pick. Please list who you would most like us to get first, and so on...

[ZONA]

1) Griffin
2) Moss
3) Carriker
4) Grant
5) ?

[long beach bronco]

Trade down to get more picks in the 2nd and 3rd round.

[ICON]

Bpa!

[bdv]

Trade down to get more picks in the 2nd and 3rd round.


Anyway, as I was saying ;), "assuming we don't move up or down in the draft..." who would you like at #21?

[listopencil]

BDLPA.

Dest D-Line player available.

[GonzoLays]

Joe Staley

[whatsgolden]

If Available

1. Levi Brown
2. Adam Carriker

More Likely

1. Brandon Merriweather
2. Anthony Spencer
3. Justin Harrell
4. Michael Griffin
5. Jarvis Moss

Definitely Not

1. Any CB
2. Any HB
3. Any WR

Which probably means we'll draft all WRs & HBs with a late CB in the mix.

[27atwater]

Griffin
Moss
Posluszny

[GonzoLays]

Everybody can take safeties off their list because we will never waste a first round draft pick on one under Shanahan.

[27atwater]

he never drafted an OLB til DJ. he never drafted an OT til Foster. Past drafts mean nothing. If he likes a S, he'll get a S.

[GonzoLays]

he never drafted an OLB til DJ. he never drafted an OT til Foster. Past drafts mean nothing. If he likes a S, he'll get a S.

Never.

Shanahan only drafts high money positions in the first round. Safety is the lowest paid position on defense. Therefore, he will never select a safety in the first round of the draft....ever.

[watermock]

Gonzo is still in denial about first round safties after all this time. This isn't the 80's or even 90's. The S position is much much more important today.

Griffin

[SureShot]

BPA!

If he is:

DT
DE
S
LB

[Needa Pass Rush]

The key lies in what contracts are expiring after this season. Check on that and get back to me.

[ScottXray]

The key lies in what contracts are expiring after this season. Check on that and get back to me.

DING DING DING DING DING!

We have a WINNAH!

:yayaya:

[skmoser]

we need to some how trade up and get landry......use wilson in the trade.......

[footstepsfrom#27]

1) Alan Branch
2) Joe Staley
3) Reggie Nelson
4) Ben Grubbs
5) Aaron Rouse

[STBumpkin]

I have a bad feeling ever since his injury that we will get Ginn Jr. I want Carriker or Griffin, but I just have this feeling...

[STBumpkin]

My 5

Carriker
Staley
Griffin
Moss
Neilson

[watermock]

Why trade up for Landry if Griffin will most likely be there?

[GonzoLays]

Why trade up for Landry if Griffin will most likely be there?

And why select those two guys when there are 30 other safeties to be had later on in the draft? If you want to select a safety in the first round you might as well pine for a punter in the second round, too. It doesn't make sense to take either one that high in the draft.

Most NFL teams move retread CBs to the safety position. Remember when Willie Middlebrooks couldn't run or cover someone to save his life? They moved him to safety for a whole season. That's all you need to know about the importance of the position.

[watermock]

We destroyed you when you first got here about your assertion that no safety is worth a first round pick. Then Sean Taylor was taken at 7 I believe. You wouldn't look back and take Ed Reed over Ms. Lilly? Our mock had us taking Reed but Reeves inexplicably went for Duckett who has bounced around like Lilly. At the time, it was the obvious choice tho.

Amazing that virtually all mocks have both Landry and Griffin going in the first.

[GonzoLays]

We destroyed you when you first got here about your assertion that no safety is worth a first round pick. Then Sean Taylor was taken at 7 I believe. You wouldn't look back and take Ed Reed over Ms. Lilly?

Amazing that virtually all mocks have both Landry and Griffin going in the first.

And what has Sean Taylor done for the Washington Redskins? What sort of impact has he made? He joined that team as the 5th or 6th pick in the draft and they drafting 6th again. And please, never use the clueless Washington Redskins as a reference for astute management skills ever again. That only proves my point.

[ward63]

Carriker
Harrell
Nelson
Staley
Griffin

[footstepsfrom#27]

Why trade up for Landry if Griffin will most likely be there?
I've watched Griffin down here at UT for two years and I'm not that impressed with him. I"d rather have Reggie Nelson or Aaron Rouse. Nelson has more speed and coverage ability and Rouse is a monster hitter with cornerback speed and linebacker size. If he responds to coaching well he's an Atwater/Smith type of headhunter who will sew fear into the hearts of opposing corners and tight ends for the next dozen years.

[Dr. Broncenstein]

And why select those two guys when there are 30 other safeties to be had later on in the draft? If you want to select a safety in the first round you might as well pine for a punter in the second round, too. It doesn't make sense to take either one that high in the draft.

Most NFL teams move retread CBs to the safety position. Remember when Willie Middlebrooks couldn't run or cover someone to save his life? They moved him to safety for a whole season. That's all you need to know about the importance of the position.

Bob Sanders made all the difference in the world for Indy...

[footstepsfrom#27]

Most NFL teams move retread CBs to the safety position.
What retread CB has become a pro bowl caliber safety?
Remember when Willie Middlebrooks couldn't run or cover someone to save his life? They moved him to safety for a whole season. That's all you need to know about the importance of the position.
And as I recall he sucked at safety also. He was only moved because he had the size but his speed was diminished due to his injury.

Contrary to what you're saying, I think safety is extremely important. It's the only DB position that can see the entire offensive allignment and typically the quarterback of the defensive backfield. Safeties are much more important with the rise of tight ends like Sharpe, Gonzo and the new breed of of guys with WR speed like Vernon Davis and even Tony Scheffler. These guys are to big for corners to cover and to fast for linebackers. A big intimidating safety like Aaron Rouse can become an extra linebacker on running plays moving into the box, can rush the passer or lay back and blast receivers after the catch. Ronnie Lott, Jack Tatum, Atwater, Smith, etc...are all players who would be worth any team's 1st rounder today. Lynch has maybe one more good year and Fergy is average. Next to OT and DT, this is our biggest weakness.

[ton80]

Carriker
Harrell
Nelson
Staley
Griffin


My thoughts almost to a T. I would switch Staley and Nelson.

[GonzoLays]

What retread CB has become a pro bowl caliber safety?

And as I recall he sucked at safety also. He was only moved because he had the size but his speed was diminished due to his injury.

Contrary to what you're saying, I think safety is extremely important. It's the only DB position that can see the entire offensive allignment and typically the quarterback of the defensive backfield. Safeties are much more important with the rise of tight ends like Sharpe, Gonzo and the new breed of of guys with WR speed like Vernon Davis and even Tony Scheffler. These guys are to big for corners to cover and to fast for linebackers. A big intimidating safety like Aaron Rouse can become an extra linebacker on running plays moving into the box, can rush the passer or lay back and blast receivers after the catch. Ronnie Lott, Jack Tatum, Atwater, Smith, etc...are all players who would be worth any team's 1st rounder today. Lynch has maybe one more good year and Fergy is average. Next to OT and DT, this is our biggest weakness.

Let me ask you, why is safety the lowest paid position on defense?

[wabbit]

Among the media here I've had a chance to talk with at any length, it would seem that a D-lineman is virtually a lock in round 1...and many believe that Adam Carriker will be the guy, one way or another (trade up, or he falls to them at 21).

From my perspective, the Broncos will play-out the whole process as opportunities present themselves...hi-value player falls, trades, draft positioning-anything is possible & even likely, given the recent history.

Question is; will the Broncos move up or down? The answer is 'up', if at all, and if they move up, it will be for Carriker or...(take a breath)...OT Levi Jones, who some here seem to believe might be another George Foster experiment.

One item of note: Denver IS still talking to Detroit.

[bronco610]

I like Carriker or Moss.

[wabbit]

I like Carriker or Moss.

I'm pretty sure the Carriker is a targeted guy, but the odd thing is; despite Moss being Denvers designated 2007 consensus choice on every mock draft between here and the few that escape Chinese censors, I know no-one (who actually know this stuff like many of you) who really believe Denver will take him.

Too one dimensional...Denver, and Bates specifically, want people equally effective against run & pass...exception being Dumervil who will always be a situational player despite his 3 down status at the end of 2006.

[SoCalBronco]

Thanks for the update, Wabbit.

We are only about three weeks away!!

[NFLBRONCO]

Socal who do you see us taking?

[footstepsfrom#27]

Let me ask you, why is safety the lowest paid position on defense?
First of all I'd like to see current figures on that if you have them so I can see a breakdown. I found 2005 figures and it doesn't look like there's that much difference outside one or two players between safeties and LB's but I didn't try to take an average salary...so do you have a link?

Second...who cares? Somebody has to get paid the least. The bottom line is that we're weak in that position in terms of coverage skills and when Lynch goes there's a big hole at tha spot. We're putting a lot of pressure on our corners as it is with our weak pass rush, and the absense of top notch cover guys backing Champ and Bly will only make it even tougher. Need I remind you we need somebody who can cover Gates and Gonzo in this division? After OT and DT, this is our weakest link.

Now how many pro bowl calier safeties were once failed corners?

[theAPAOps5]

One item of note: Denver IS still talking to Detroit.

Interesting little tidbit. I wonder if that talk involves one Al Wilson?

[watermock]

The fact Sean Taylor has had a rough start really means nothing. Gonzo...less than the Soulja taken just as high before crashing and burning. I suppose no TE's should be taken high either.

Your living in the past Gonzo, altho your probably a younster. If there is a drawback to Griffin, it's that is isn't outstanding in coverage. I've narrowed the first round wish list to Griffin, Carraker or Barnes if he drops.

[labronx]

Last year I was high on Maroney over any RB.

This year I think Shanny wants

Reggie Nelson
* #1
* | Defensive Back
* | Florida Gators
http://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.dll?ticket=
9d05bbdb22e5e44d0e2b60ec769d74e7&sid=35204227&t=wmv&br=700&s=2022132219&start=0&end
=&afr=3&nodeid=2249260&d=136&tz=&pg=NDkyNDYxOTQ2MTRhYjJlOD&authid=&sl=136&so=%252FYahoo%
2BSports%252Fnfldraft%252Fdb%252F128572&sdm=&pt=&tcode= (http://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.dll?ticket=9d05bbdb22e5e44d0e2b60ec76 9d74e
7&sid=35204227&t=wmv&br=700&s=2022132219&start=0&end=&afr=3&nodeid=2249260&d=13
6&tz=&pg=NDkyNDYxOTQ2MTRhYjJlOD&authid=&sl=136&so=%252FYahoo%2BSports%252Fnfldraft
%252Fdb%252F128572&sdm=&pt=&tcode=)

Class:
Junior 3V
Height:
6-1
Weight:
193
Previous School:
Coffeyville (KS) JC
Hometown:
Melbourne, Florida

While possessing the abilities of a Cover 2 cornerback, most evaluators feel Nelson --
who thinks of himself as a fearsome hitter in the mold of John Lynch --
will be most successful as a free safety. Nelson's combination of speed, instincts, range and study skills
make him so dangerous. He's not afraid to come up and cover a wide receiver,
but is just as fast to go hit a runner in the mouth.
He takes proper angles to the ball, keeps his eyes focused on the quarterback and
then shows an extra burst of speed to the ball. He also has the hands to force turnovers and then the vision and speed to make opposing offenses pay for their mistakes.

His pro day workout – which featured times in the 4.33 range in the 40; 4.09 short shuttle;
and 6.68 3-cone – impressed evaluators. However, the thing that most jumps out about him
is that he carries himself with both maturity and a great deal of youthful energy.
He's dedicated to being successful and keeping to the path that his mother, who died last fall, set for him.
His attitude, playmaking skills and potential to make an immediate impact on a defensive unit as a rookie will make him this year's version of Donte' Whitner, who rose into the top 10 after his combine and pro day workouts.



Hopefully, he trades down and we get him somewher around 26 an additonal 1st day pick.

[watermock]

I'm not sure about a 193 cover safety. Round whatever...JC transfer to boot.

[bpc]

I think we are looking at:

1. Carriker - Doubt he slips this far.
2. Ginn Jr. - I just don't see how Shanahan would pass up a weapon like this, should he slide. Huge return weapon and a guy that will easily come in on 3 and 4 wides because of his speed.
3. Justin Harrell - We haven't really picked up anybody that good at the position and it is screaming for help... Harrell is another big body, 6'4", 315 with great pedigree coming from UT.
4. Reggie Nelson - The guy is a play maker. He would be a natural fit with Lynch playing up at strong safety, free to pickup the mistakes of that QB's will heave up away from Champ and now Bly.
5. Michael Griffin - I like Nelson just A LITTLE bit better but both are virtually the same fit in our defense. Griff has been nicked up a little bit which worries me but I think he will be a very good coverage safety in the NFL.

Alan Branch and Levi Brown are guys that if they start to slide will warrant consideration. I don't think Denver will be too worried about Branch's shape and Brown is a guy that consider very good, very much the opposite of George Foster despite what some people are saying on here. HE is a physical offensive lineman who would truly help this team in the mean streak department.

[Rohirrim]

I'm pretty sure the Carriker is a targeted guy, but the odd thing is; despite Moss being Denvers designated 2007 consensus choice on every mock draft between here and the few that escape Chinese censors, I know no-one (who actually know this stuff like many of you) who really believe Denver will take him.

Too one dimensional...Denver, and Bates specifically, want people equally effective against run & pass...exception being Dumervil who will always be a situational player despite his 3 down status at the end of 2006.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Finally, a little light breaks through the clouds.

I think Carriker would be a good pick. :pimp:

[BroncoBuff]

Too one dimensional...Denver, and Bates specifically, want people equally effective against run & pass...exception being Dumervil who will always be a situational player despite his 3 down status at the end of 2006.

Thanks - I thought the same thing. He might be 5 inches taller than Elvis, but it's the same skill-set.

[-Slap-]

Carriker will be a great pick for the people who missed Shawn Knight the first time around.

Staley looks like a poor man's Kirk Scrafford.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Today's totally unreliable, prediction based only on names I pull out of a hat:

1. Harrell
2. Moss
3. Charles Johnson
4. Staley
5. Griffin

[bpc]

Carriker will be a great pick for the people who missed Shawn Knight the first time around.

Staley looks like a poor man's Kirk Scrafford.

Don't think too much of OT who can run a 4.84 or a cornfed kid from Nebraska?

I agree with you on Staley but I think Carriker will be better than the Shawn Knight prediction.

[cabronco]

1. Adam Carriker
2. Jarvis Moss
3. Michael Griffin
4. Justin Harrel
5. Anthony Spencer

[Rohirrim]

Don't think too much of OT who can run a 4.84 or a cornfed kid from Nebraska?

I agree with you on Staley but I think Carriker will be better than the Shawn Knight prediction.

Slap's just pissed because Willis won't be a Bronco. ;D

[usedupbraids]

Bring back Plummer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[labronx]

I'm not sure about a 193 cover safety. Round whatever...JC transfer to boot.

I think that's the future type safety. He plays like a CB but is still a safety, a tweener.

Look, we can get a Sam Brandon, Kennoy Kennedy type anyday any round any year. We have proven that.

We need a total ball hawk at Safety. I want one as bad as I wanted a real Franchise QB. I think it would totally upgrade our DL, maybe even more than drafting an actual lineman.

[ayjackson]

1. Patrick Willis (won't slide)
2. Adam Carriker (ditto)
3. Justin Harrell
4. Robert Meachem
5. Ted Ginn Jr.
6. trade down

[GonzoLays]

Now how many pro bowl calier safeties were once failed corners?

Sure, there are plenty of converted CBs that turned into pro bowl safeties such as Rod Woodson and even Brock Marion who came into this league as CB.

And to further my point that you can find safeties later in the draft, just look where perennial pro bowl safeties Brain Dawkins and John Lynch were selected.

Second...who cares? Somebody has to get paid the least.

Isn't there a reason behind it, though? Come on. What, safeties don't like money? They are team players so they take less money? There has to be SOME reason behind why they get paid the least amount.

Maybe this will help clear up my point: why has the fullback position traditionally been the lowest paid position on offense? Is there a reason behind it? If you understand why fullbacks are paid the least you will understand why safeties are too.

The safety position is important, yes. But so is the punter and long snapper positions as well. Let us not get increase the importance of them, though.

[usedupbraids]

What do you think Jerry Rice is doing right now? You ever just wonder.......

[bdv]

I think that's the future type safety. He plays like a CB but is still a safety, a tweener.

Look, we can get a Sam Brandon, Kennoy Kennedy type anyday any round any year. We have proven that.

We need a total ball hawk at Safety. I want one as bad as I wanted a real Franchise QB. I think it would totally upgrade our DL, maybe even more than drafting an actual lineman.
Agree!

Someone correct me if I'm wrong. But it seems to me that the two primary jobs of a free safety (in our defensive scheme) should be to catch INTs and to break up passes when the CB is beat. Not just hit hard after the ball is caught - which, of course, is important as well.

Thus, he should be talented (speed, quickness, agility, ball skills) and smart (able to read the QB and anticipate where the ball is being passed). In addition, he should tackle well and hit hard. A futuristic, hybrid safety!...

"We need a total ball hawk at Safety." Oh yeah!

[-Slap-]

Don't think too much of OT who can run a 4.84 or a cornfed kid from Nebraska?

I agree with you on Staley but I think Carriker will be better than the Shawn Knight prediction.

Why would I want an OT who can run the 40 in 4.84? Do we have anything in the playbook that requires our linemen to cover 40 yards at once?

I'm not too impressed by a blocker with the speed to get to the second level when the guys on the first level are kicking his ass.

Carriker I could live with @ 21, but I would hate to see us trade up for him.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Sure, there are plenty of converted CBs that turned into pro bowl safeties such as Rod Woodson and even Brock Marion who came into this league as CB.
OK...first of all the criteria you established was not just corners converting to safety but FAILED corners converting to safeties. Woodson played CB at one of the highest levels in NFL history BEFORE he converted to safety, and he converted after suffering a major knee injury. I don't think you're making your point by using a guy who is a member of the NFL's 75 year team, the 1990's all decade team and an 11 time pro bowler. So scratch Woodson from the list. As for Brock Marion, he was a 4 year starter in college and played his first three at CB before switching to safety, so he wasn't converted to safety in the NFL because he failed at corner. He was already a safety when he came into the league.

Show me an example of a corner who stunk it up and went on to star at safety...or more than one since you're saying there are numerous examples.
And to further my point that you can find safeties later in the draft, just look where perennial pro bowl safeties Brain Dawkins and John Lynch were selected.
I can find any position in the NFL and point to guys who made it from the back end of the draft...Tom Brady and Terrell Davis come to mine...so how does this prove safeties shouldn't be taken in the first round simply because some succeed who are drafted later?
Isn't there a reason behind it, though? Come on. What, safeties don't like money? They are team players so they take less money? There has to be SOME reason behind why they get paid the least amount.
Well first of all I'm still waiting for a link to prove they make less. I found figures on 2005 salaries for safeties and LB's and outside of a few players, the differences were not that great, so I'm not sure you aren't overstating this. Second, merely pointing out that they are paid less, doesn't really tell us much about whether their function on the field is important or not. I'll concede that corners are tougher to find...at least the kind who can cover man to man...so that's a functionality difference we could talk about that's the product of specific skills like speed, but I don't see that the you've made your case that safeties are unimportant because the skill set for corners is tougher to find.
Maybe this will help clear up my point: why has the fullback position traditionally been the lowest paid position on offense? Is there a reason behind it? If you understand why fullbacks are paid the least you will understand why safeties are too.
Bad analogy...since fullbacks don't even exist in some team's offensive schemes. Show me a team that has no safeties on their roster however...there are none.

If all you need a fullback to do is block you can use a guard to do that. If you only need pass catching you can use a tight end lined up as an H-back. If you need a short yardage pile driver who can pick up a yard on 4th and goal, guys who can do that and nothing else are a dime a dozen. On the other hand, the functionality of the safety position cannot be assumed by corners unless they're also big enough to handle covering 270 pound tight ends who can run downfield 30 yards for passes. Even the best corners are not big enough to handle the Antonio Gates type tight ends. Remember Champ getting beat in the end zone by Gates? He got outmuscled by a much bigger player there. The defensive backfield needs a guy who is half linebacker half corner...big enough to handle tight ends and jump into the box to support the run, and fast enough to support the corners in deep coverage. Physically speaking the guy in this draft who most closely fits that description in terms of size/speed is Aaron Rouse, a vicious hitter who is 6'4", 225 and running in 40's in the 4.3 range. No cornerback sized DB in the NFL is going to replace the functionality tha big fast safeties offer. Unlike the fullback who can easily be replaced by a committee of other guys, the arrival of huge and fast tight ends necessitates the need for safeties who can counter them.

You mentioned Lynch as an example of a pro bowler found in the later rounds, but I submit that while Lynch is a pro bowler, he's far from a complete safety since he has short comings in pass coverage. If anything, the tag "pro bowler" when applied to the Lynch's of the world, ought to show you how rare it is to find safeties with the wide set of diversified skills a great safety needs. It's difficult to find guys with speed, size and hitting ability as well as the instincts needed to make plays in both the running and passing game. Landry seems to have these skills, as does Rouse, though some think he's more of an athlete than an instinctive player. Either way...you're not going to find the prototypical Atwater/Smith/Lott type of guy floating around in the 6th round unless there's something strange...character issues...playing in obscurity in some small school setting...coming off an injury...etc... I want an OT or a DT in round one...but if the choice is between a pretty decent defensive tackle who will never be more than that, and a stud safety with size, speed and range...gimme the safety every time.

[c_lazy_r]

If I'm not mistaken, Lott was drafted as a cornerback.

[-Slap-]

If I'm not mistaken, Lott was drafted as a cornerback.

That's correct. Hicks and Williamson were the safeties in SF during Lott's first couple seasons.

[footstepsfrom#27]

If I'm not mistaken, Lott was drafted as a cornerback.
Lott played safety in college and moved to CB with the 9ers his rookie year. He finished 2nd to Lawrence Taylor as ROY and is a prime example of a great talent who excelled at both spots. We're looking for CB's who stunk and made it big as safeties. There may be some...but if there are, their existence hardly proves it's easily achieved unless we can find numerous examples. Bottom line...safeties with top notch skills are both necessary and tough to find because the functionality the position demands today makes the skill set possessed by the best ones worthy of first round draft status.

[GonzoLays]

Bad analogy...since fullbacks don't even exist in some team's offensive schemes. Show me a team that has no safeties on their roster however...there are none.



Show me one team in the NFL which does not have a fullback on the roster. If they don't exists in some schemes, why have them? You act as if half the teams in the NFL don't have fullbacks on their roster. So since teams DO CARRY fullbacks, it was an excellent and most outstanding analogy.

OK...first of all the criteria you established was not just corners converting to safety but FAILED corners converting to safeties.

When in the hell did I establish the criteria for 'failed corners' converting to safeties? I haven't. I have given examples of players like Willie Middlebrooks moving over to safety because they lack the athletic ability to play corner. I have mentioned moving geezers over to safety like Troy Vincent. I have mentioned former has beens moving over to safety like Jason Sehorn. You took what you wanted from what I gave you.

My whole premise/point the whole time is that safeties:

1) are the lowest impact defenders on the field. Of this you cannot deny. They are the "last line of defense."

2) you can find "impact safeties" (isn't that a oxymoron?) later on in the draft and there is no use wasting a first round draft pick one.

3) you can move cornerbacks over to safety and not miss a beat. Last year we moved undrafted free agent cornerback Curome Cox into the lineup and he performed. We moved CB Dominque Foxworth to safety and he performed. Finding "impact safties" (isn't that a oxymoron?) is easy as converting your 4th CB to the position.

4) Safeties are the lowest paid positions on defense so it makes absolutely no sense wasting a first round draft pick on a position you can easily replace in free agency with a PRO BOWL safety for the cost of an average CB.

Dieon Grant is the third highest paid safety in football and he signed a 6 year/30 million dollar deal. And that is the third highest!! So if you want one of the best -- and good safeties are ALWAYS on the market -- why waste a first round draft pick on one and give him a signing bonus equivalent to what you would give a proven/cream of the crop safety? You see what I am saying?

And if all that doesn't scratch your itch, then you can simply move Curome Cox to the starting lineup and not miss a beat!! hahaha

[bpc]

Why would I want an OT who can run the 40 in 4.84? Do we have anything in the playbook that requires our linemen to cover 40 yards at once?

I'm not too impressed by a blocker with the speed to get to the second level when the guys on the first level are kicking his ass.

Carriker I could live with @ 21, but I would hate to see us trade up for him.

My thoughts on Staley exactly, also another one of the reasons why i was laughing at people who knocked Levi Brown for running a 5.4. When will he use that speed? He seemed more than fast enough when he was knocking the $hit out of Big 10 DE's like Spencer and Woodley.

I'm good on Carriker too. I don't think we should really be looking to trade up for anybody unless it is CJ, Landry, Thomas or Adams. If anything we should look to move back.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Show me one team in the NFL which does not have a fullback on the roster. If they don't exists in some schemes, why have them? You act as if half the teams in the NFL don't have fullbacks on their roster. So since teams DO CARRY fullbacks, it was an excellent and most outstanding analogy.
Teams that use the one-back offense like Dallas will this year may carry a FB, but he's reserved for situational substitutions. The Cowboys have 1 FB and 4 RB's on their roster and will go with a double tight end instead of a fullback about 90% of the time this year. Some other NFL teams have done likewise with fullbacks...the position is almost phased out in some places. You can't compare that to teams carrying 3 or 4 safeties and playing 2 every play.
When in the hell did I establish the criteria for 'failed corners' converting to safeties? I haven't. I have given examples of players like Willie Middlebrooks moving over to safety because they lack the athletic ability to play corner. I have mentioned moving geezers over to safety like Troy Vincent. I have mentioned former has beens moving over to safety like Jason Sehorn. You took what you wanted from what I gave you.
Well you said,

"Most NFL teams move retread CBs to the safety position. Remember when Willie Middlebrooks couldn't run or cover someone to save his life? They moved him to safety for a whole season. That's all you need to know about the importance of the position.

I guess when I see the words "retread", "Willie Middlebrooks" and "couldn't run or cover someone to save his life"...I just naturally associate that with the word "failed". If you had said, "just check out hall of famer Rod Woodson's successful move to safety"...well I'd have chosen a different word than "failed"...my bad. ;D
My whole premise/point the whole time is that safeties:

1) are the lowest impact defenders on the field. Of this you cannot deny.
I do deny it. I've already stated why it's not true.
2) you can find "impact safeties" (isn't that a oxymoron?) later on in the draft and there is no use wasting a first round draft pick one.
Same with all positions.
3) you can move cornerbacks over to safety and not miss a beat. Last year we moved undrafted free agent cornerback Curome Cox into the lineup and he performed. We moved CB Dominque Foxworth to safety and he performed. Finding "impact safties" (isn't that a oxymoron?) is easy as converting your 4th CB to the position.
Neither Foxworth or Cox is anywhere near an "impact safety". If anything people are saying Foxworth was to small to handle the job, and Cox was never going to play CB anyway.
4) Safeties are the lowest paid positions on defense so it makes absolutely no sense wasting a first round draft pick on a position you can easily replace in free agency with a PRO BOWL safety for the cost of an average CB.
That assumes, 1) such a player is available, 2) he's going to come to Denver, and 3) he isn't as old as John Lynch. Nobody can deny the impact Smith/Atwater had on the Denver defense. They were selected in the 1st and 2nd round and we've never reached that level of performance since they left.
Dieon Grant is the third highest paid safety in football and he signed a 6 year/30 million dollar deal. And that is the third highest!! So if you want one of the best -- and good safeties are ALWAYS on the market -- why waste a first round draft pick on one and give him a signing bonus equivalent to what you would give a proven/cream of the crop safety? You see what I am saying?
It appears you're saying we shouldn't draft a guy in the first round beause we'll get him to play cheaper. This makes sense to you?
And if all that doesn't scratch your itch, then you can simply move Curome Cox to the starting lineup and not miss a beat!! hahaha
Right...he's proven...what?

Nothing.

[watermock]

Noah from Florida.... heh. That kid could handle the rock like a point guard at 6-11. Oh wait...we don't have Jake tossing up jump balls anymore.

Never mind.

[GonzoLays]

Teams that use the one-back offense like Dallas will this year may carry a FB, but he's reserved for situational substitutions. The Cowboys have 1 FB and 4 RB's on their roster and will go with a double tight end instead of a fullback about 90% of the time this year. Some other NFL teams have done likewise with fullbacks...the position is almost phased out in some places. You can't compare that to teams carrying 3 or 4 safeties and playing 2 every play.

Well you said,



I guess when I see the words "retread", "Willie Middlebrooks" and "couldn't run or cover someone to save his life"...I just naturally associate that with the word "failed". If you had said, "just check out hall of famer Rod Woodson's successful move to safety"...well I'd have chosen a different word than "failed"...my bad. ;D

I do deny it. I've already stated why it's not true.

Same with all positions.

Neither Foxworth or Cox is anywhere near an "impact safety". If anything people are saying Foxworth was to small to handle the job, and Cox was never going to play CB anyway.

That assumes, 1) such a player is available, 2) he's going to come to Denver, and 3) he isn't as old as John Lynch. Nobody can deny the impact Smith/Atwater had on the Denver defense. They were selected in the 1st and 2nd round and we've never reached that level of performance since they left.

It appears you're saying we shouldn't draft a guy in the first round beause we'll get him to play cheaper. This makes sense to you?

Right...he's proven...what?

Nothing.

Woooooow, you disagreed with every single point I made. You even disagreed with my ANALOGY. Amazing. How is that even possible? How is it practible that you see exactly opposite of what I see? How are you on one end of the spectrum and I am on the other end? Could it be that you just like to argue? I think so.

Never, NEVER has anyone so fervently attacked, disputed and declared my posts invalided and null as you have and I am very disappointed in you footstepsfrom27. Because before, I thought you were here to exchange ideas and debate topics on a gentlemanly level; where a point conceded by you would be recognized and duly noted. But nooooo, that is not even the case. You are here to win "battles." To bludgeon your opponents with thousands of words in hope of being the last won to write on the topic therefore declaring you the winner of the "internet showdown." How do I know this? Well, of course we can go by the exchange you and I had, but I distinctly remember you once arguing with yavoon about a math problem you got wrong but would not admit to. You wouldn't even concede the fact you got your numbers wrong and he was right after yavoon repeatedly told you your formula was incorrect. It was an unfortunate sight to behold.

But why footstepsfrom27, why must you act this way? Can you honestly say -- as you have shown from your previous posts in this thread -- that all my points are incorrect? Can you honestly say that? Or are you just trying to save face and will never make a concession to anyone? If so, let us save each other from wasting each other's time and agree to disagree.

But let me say, I am truly disappointed that I had to write this. I had held you in much higher regard before this exchange than I do now. I had no idea I was wasting my time debating with a brick wall.

Good day to you, sir.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Woooooow, you disagreed with every single point I made. You even disagreed with my ANALOGY. Amazing. How is that even possible? How is it practible that you see exactly opposite of what I see? How are you on one end of the spectrum and I am on the other end? Could it be that you just like to argue? I think so.
You're kidding right? LOL Nobody in here likes to stir the pot more than you...which BTW...I don't neccessarily consider a bad thing. ;D

Never, NEVER has anyone so fervently attacked, disputed and declared my posts invalided and null as you have and I am very disappointed in you footstepsfrom27. Because before, I thought you were here to exchange ideas and debate topics on a gentlemanly level; where a point conceded by you would be recognized and duly noted. But nooooo, that is not even the case. You are here to win "battles." To bludgeon your opponents with thousands of words in hope of being the last won to write on the topic therefore declaring you the winner of the "internet showdown." How do I know this? Well, of course we can go by the exchange you and I had, but I distinctly remember you once arguing with yavoon about a math problem you got wrong but would not admit to. You wouldn't even concede the fact you got your numbers wrong and he was right after yavoon repeatedly told you your formula was incorrect. It was an unfortunate sight to behold.

But why footstepsfrom27, why must you act this way? Can you honestly say -- as you have shown from your previous posts in this thread -- that all my points are incorrect? Can you honestly say that? Or are you just trying to save face and will never make a concession to anyone? If so, let us save each other from wasting each other's time and agree to disagree.

But let me say, I am truly disappointed that I had to write this. I had held you in much higher regard before this exchange than I do now. I had no idea I was wasting my time debating with a brick wall.

Good day to you, sir.
Hilarious! Hilarious!

[Tombstone RJ]

Everybody can take safeties off their list because we will never waste a first round draft pick on one under Shanahan.

That's what I said a few years ago about offensive lineman. Then blammo, Foster!

[BroncoMan4ever]

we need to some how trade up and get landry......use wilson in the trade.......

I can't help but think Denver should find a way to get Detroit's number 2, package maybe 21 and 1 of our 3rd rounders or whatever would need to be done and get either, Calvin Johnson, Peterson(i know we have Henry but i can hope) Gaines Adams, or LaRon Landry
Send Detroit our 21 and Wilson if they are set on trading him and get number 2 from Detroit since they have already inquired about him. Or find a way to trade up for Patrick Willis.

[GoHAM]

1. Carriker
2. C. Johnson
3. Nelson
4. Harrell
5. Kalil (My odd year Shanahan ???? pick)

[bdv]

1. Patrick Willis - MLB - at #21? dream on
2. Adam Carriker - DE - at #21? dream on

3. Reggie Nelson (ball hawk, natural talent and unreal speed at free safety)
4. Ted Ginn, Jr. (WR, great speed, mostly: GREAT returner on ST)
5. Jarvis Moss - DE

IMHO, we've got some pretty good DEs already. We need DTs at the line. I think there's good value in the second and third rounds for DTs. If we get Nelson or Ginn at #21 we'll still have three more first day picks to use at the D-line.

Nelson or Ginn would give us the best value at #21, at needed positions. Nelson would complete what would become the best secondary in the league. While Ginn would give us an uncommon, underrated, though prodigious weapon as a kick & punt returner. Our offensive field position would benefit greatly. He would also evolve into a very good #3 WR.

[BroncoBuff]

If I'm not mistaken, Lott was drafted as a cornerback.

Your man there Dennis Smith played cornerback as a rook on 81...

Billy Thompson started his career at CB too ....

[Requiem]

I'm not kidding when I say, take Griffin at #21 and then just wait on defensive end until #56.

The grades from the defensive ends at #21 won't differ that much from #56.

Hell, Griffin and say Tim Crowder (if we were lucky) would mean more to me than say Anthony Spencer and Sabby Piscitelli.

And I hate Texas.