Kobe can’t compete with Jordan’s legacy

[dragondawg]

As good as he is, Bryant will never be regarded as best ever

I'm saying this without hesitation: Kobe Bryant is the best player ever who scored at least 50 points in four straight games in March in two cities beginning with the letter "M." And something else Michael Jordan never could do: Bryant scored at least 50 points in games in Memphis and New Orleans. Yes, it's time for the stupid "Who's the Greatest Ever" debate.

These days this happens every year, or do now when Bryant goes off on some phenomenal scoring binge, like the nine straight of at least 40 a few years back, his 81 last season and last week's latest assault on Wilt.

To me, it was Wilt who was by far the most dominant player ever, the player who most transcended his era. Not necessarily with the championships. Likely, the scoring records never will be broken. But there never was a figure in basketball bigger than the game like Wilt was with his scoring — on and off the court, as he told it — and his effect on the game to the point the league continued to change rules to counter him because teams couldn't.

Jordan is generally regarded as that mythical best ever because of the championships and, to no small measure, the explosion of the NBA media and sneaker era, both of which featured Jordan.

Plus, he had this magnetic hold over men.

I've never seen anything in sports like it. It may have been that way with Muhammad Ali and Babe Ruth, the desire of men to be liked by him, but they mostly performed in the era before maximum media coverage.

Being around Jordan, I watched the hardest bitten reporters, the ones who had "cynical" on their business card, melt when Jordan would answer their questions by calling them by their first name, seek out eye contact and the exchanged smile. It wasn't fake with Jordan. He was a man's man, betting, boasting and beatific. Men wanted to be him; the next best thing was for him to acknowledge them.

It's one reason Kobe never will be regarded as the best ever.

Nobody wants to be him. Well, not quite, but it's taken awhile for Bryant to begin to warm up to the populace, to shake his feud with the more personable Shaquille O'Neal, get past his court case in Colorado and sexual assault charges, and issues with supposedly breaking up the Lakers. Kobe was an island; Michael was the south of France.

Michael won the championships as the best player on his team; Kobe is more skilled with a better shot and far more range; Michael was the league's best defender; Kobe could do everything, leading the Lakers in assists every season they won a championship; Michael never had a big center to play with; how good could Kobe have been if he didn't have to defer; the league was stronger when Michael played; the players are more athletic and the preparation better now; how much would Michael have scored if they didn't allow hand checking back then? How much would Kobe score if there were no zones now?

And on and on it goes.

It is a lot like the debate you hear occasionally in golf, if you are awake enough to contribute after watching it on TV.

The old timers refuse to accept anyone could ever be better than Jack Nicklaus. Everyone else generally agrees Tiger Woods is the best.

There's really no surpassing Jordan because memory is fallible.

How often are you certain something happened years ago and it never did, or at least not the way you remembered it?
This is like the life changing moment presidential candidate Barack Obama talks about in his new memoir of reading this Life magazine article when he was growing up in Indonesia about a man — not Michael Jackson — whitening his skin to conform. Obama talked about it changing his life. Only there never was an article in Life. Obama was sure, though maybe perhaps it was somewhere else.

The mind can play devilish tricks.

Like with Jordan and the media. It's as if he never missed a big shot, made a bad pass, took a selfish shot. He's like a basketball urban legend as he gets farther from the game. There's no competing against his legacy.

So why bother?

Bryant is the best player of this era. There are too many variables between eras, rules changes, quality of opponents, changes in talent and expansions.

Bryant probably is not the MVP because the Mavs and Suns will win far more games, and the vote usually goes to the best player on the best team, or close to that. The Lakers have been decimated by injuries to key players all season. They perhaps play the poorest starting lineup of any team in the West that will make the playoffs.

Which is why they are dangerous.

Coach Phil Jackson says that the reason the Lakers came so close to beating the Suns last season was that they shared the ball, and to a fault Bryant did as he was condemned in the seventh game for not shooting enough.

This season, until last week, anyway, Bryant again to a fault involved his teammates. Jackson had finally seen enough with seven straight losses and told Bryant to shoot. Scorers don't have to be told twice.

It's little realized that all this began after the blowout loss in Denver during which George Karl again seemed to run up the score, much like he did in New York, precipitating a brawl that cost Carmelo Anthony 15 games. It is said that Anthony had been taunting Bryant in that game about the scoring title and the way the Lakers were being beaten. Within a week, Bryant had virtually clinched the scoring title and the Nuggets were in another dive.

The Lakers are not particularly good. But because of Bryant they are dangerous. Like the Bulls of the late 1980's, who were knocking off better teams with more wins in the playoffs, like the Knicks and Cavaliers. The star is the x-factor in the playoffs, which is really why the best of Bryant may yet be ahead.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17848249/

there was another article where it said jordan would appear on tv in a suit and would have answers ready but kobe appears in sweats and when asked why he didn't call shaq he said he didn't have his number, also when jordan is involved in something it went away fast like his gambling and him cheating on his wife but with kobe it drags on

[Atwater His Ass]

Not saying no one will ever touch Jordan, but Kobe isn't the guy.

Jordan was specail and played in a special time in the league with other special players, like Magic, Bird, Isiah, Ewing, Barkely, Malone and Stockton, etc.

Is just isn't the same game now as then. I found the Jordan era much more entertaining.

[dragondawg]

shaq said if wilt played today he couldn't score like he did

[MechanicalBull]

Kobe will never come close to being Jordan. The guy won 6 championships and would've won about 8 or 9 straight had he not retire in between 3peats. The guy could do it all and was unstoppable. With me being a Knick fan during the that time I hated Jordan as a rival but the guy was amazing.

Basketball in general was so much better back in the late 80's early 90's. I can't even watch it now and haven't watched even 1 qtr in years. Every team had a hall of famer and some of the best ever. Like Atwater said, you had Bird, Ewing, Malone, Magic, Isiah, Stockton, Olajuwon, Barkley, Drexler, Reggie Miller, David Robinson and the list goes on.

[Garcia Bronco]

Not saying no one will ever touch Jordan, but Kobe isn't the guy.

Jordan was specail and played in a special time in the league with other special players, like Magic, Bird, Isiah, Ewing, Barkely, Malone and Stockton, etc.

Is just isn't the same game now as then. I found the Jordan era much more entertaining.

Was there anything better during these months than NBC Sunday basketball with Jordon and Ewing....and YES! even Marv Albert.

[RhymesayersDU]

Yeah, Knicks/Bulls was awesome back in the day.

[Atwater His Ass]

Was there anything better during these months than NBC Sunday basketball with Jordon and Ewing....and YES! even Marv Albert.

It was great. After the games, me and my friends would go shoot hoops in the driveway, playing as all of our favorite players.

Maybe it was just the age I was, but there definately was something magical about the NBA in the late 80s early 90s.

Like others have stated, I just can't even stand to watch it now. Seems to be just a bunch of punks out there now. Maybe I'm just old.

[dragondawg]

i don't even watch the nba anymore, too boring, so in NBA finals jordan went against magic, dexter, barkley, payton, malone and stockton twice, kobe had shaq and went against an weak east like New Jersey who they sewpt, indy, and i forgot who else, they got beat by the pistons bad

[MechanicalBull]

i don't even watch the nba anymore, too boring, so in NBA finals jordan went against magic, dexter, barkley, payton, malone and stockton twice, kobe had shaq and went against an weak east like New Jersey who they sewpt, indy, and i forgot who else, they got beat by the pistons bad

They also went against Iverson and the 76ers that's the team you were forgetting. In the big man era with guys like Olajuwon, Robinson and Duncan and Shaq all winning titles Jordan didn't with the likes of Bill Cartright, Will Perdue, Luc Longley. He did have Pippen with him as well but no big man.

[Maximus]

If the refs give kobe the same leeway as Jordan had during his playing time there would be no question of who the better player is. As for the thread... It's pretty lame because Kobe is carving his own history and has accomplished things that jordan never did!

If you want evidence of the leeway... Just look at the Byron Russell Pushoff... Sure Jordan scored the basket, but it was an offensive foul!!!
Hell... Kobe gets hacked and fouled all night long... During Jordan's time if you so much as looked in Jordans direction the whistle blew!

[Killericon]

This just in: Ann Coulter is a bitch, and John Elway was the best QB to ever play for the Broncos.

[dragondawg]

jordan played most of the 98 season without pippen, kobe also says he watches film of mj and you can see most or all of is moves are those of jordan's

[Maximus]

jordan played most of the 98 season without pippen, kobe also says he watches film of mj and you can see most or all of is moves are those of jordan's

And Jordan stole his moves from Earl Monroe, Archie Clark... etc!

[RhymesayersDU]

If the refs give kobe the same leeway as Jordan had during his playing time there would be no question of who the better player is. As for the thread... It's pretty lame because Kobe is carving his own history and has accomplished things that jordan never did!

If you want evidence of the leeway... Just look at the Byron Russell Pushoff... Sure Jordan scored the basket, but it was an offensive foul!!!
Hell... Kobe gets hacked and fouled all night long... During Jordan's time if you so much as looked in Jordans direction the whistle blew!

I'm not saying Jordan didn't get a lot of leeway, because he did. But Kobe gets just as much... or if not, he at least gets some of the most in the NBA today. I've seen some pretty obvious clean plays that he gets to go to the line.

But I think Kobe is phenomenal. The problem with Jordan is, nobody will ever be Jordan. I've quickly come to learn that nothing is EVER as good as it once was. Ever. I think as people we always remember things as being great in the past. Now granted, Jordan did win 6 rings, so he deserves the accolades. But still, I'm of the opinion that even if Kobe wins 3 or 4 more, people will still claim he's no Jordan. So all he can do is play his game.

[Maximus]

I'm not saying Jordan didn't get a lot of leeway, because he did. But Kobe gets just as much... or if not, he at least gets some of the most in the NBA today. I've seen some pretty obvious clean plays that he gets to go to the line.

But I think Kobe is phenomenal. The problem with Jordan is, nobody will ever be Jordan. I've quickly come to learn that nothing is EVER as good as it once was. Ever. I think as people we always remember things as being great in the past. Now granted, Jordan did win 6 rings, so he deserves the accolades. But still, I'm of the opinion that even if Kobe wins 3 or 4 more, people will still claim he's no Jordan. So all he can do is play his game.

I can't disagree with anything here... They are both great and different players... Kobe is a greater scorer Jordan was more of an assassin... If you take their faces away and compared them it's hard to choose.

[Willynowei]

Everyone focuses on offense, where Kobe is just as good. No doubt, I'm a Kobe fan. But Jordan was just dominating in every freakin phase of basketball. He was a great rebounder, he hustled on defense and people feared passing to his man b/c he was so athletic at jumping the pass. Jordan also jumped higher, exploded faster and could finish better in traffic simply because of how high he could get.

The article makes a good point in mentioning handchecking as allowed in basketball then.

I love Kobe, and I think he's comparable to Jordan but should clearly fall short when he is compared. Jordan wasn't some fantasy, he was a guy who scored 30+ points a game without jacking up 30+ shots. He was a guy who was feared on defense and despite people avoiding to pass to his man, still got his steals each game. He was good on the boards, especially on his own misses, and he was an absolute beast in transition.

He was about as fast as T-mac, jumped about as high as Carter, and that made him impossible to defend, even when his shots didn't fall. Kobe is great, he is more skilled and shoots better, but a skilled player ALWAYS falls to an athletic player in comparison. MJ was skilled but he had the explosiveness to take over no matter how cold his shot was. Who needs a off balance jumper when you can blow by everyone for a dunk?

Kobe has off nights where, even when he tries to will himself out of it, he fails b/c he has a lot of reliance on his midrange game. MJ didn't need a midrange game, everything was gravy outside the layups.

[nickademus]

Everyone focuses on offense, where Kobe is just as good. No doubt, I'm a Kobe fan. But Jordan was just dominating in every freakin phase of basketball. He was a great rebounder, he hustled on defense and people feared passing to his man b/c he was so athletic at jumping the pass. Jordan also jumped higher, exploded faster and could finish better in traffic simply because of how high he could get.

The article makes a good point in mentioning handchecking as allowed in basketball then.

This is the reason you can not compair Kobe and Jordan. Jordan was so hyper competitive that once he was labled as a jumper or a scorer he went out and made it his personal mission to be the defensieve player of the year. I do think that Kobe has more tools than Jordan on the offencieve end but Kobe cant even sniff Jordan as a defencieve player. I just dont see anyone comeing into the league with the same type of competitive drive that Jordan had Hibachi gets close but all he wants to do is score. Jordan was like Bruce Bowen and T-mac in one guy he was simply amazing.

[Garcia Bronco]

It was great. After the games, me and my friends would go shoot hoops in the driveway, playing as all of our favorite players.

Maybe it was just the age I was, but there definately was something magical about the NBA in the late 80s early 90s.

Like others have stated, I just can't even stand to watch it now. Seems to be just a bunch of punks out there now. Maybe I'm just old.

You're not old...it's the truth...the NBA product is not as good these days....The best matchups of the time IMO was Knicks/Pacers..or Knicks/Heat...or Bulls/Detriot and you had Barkley and KJ out west...and Utah it was almost like every game was a classic.

[NDBRONCO]

#1 Wilt Chamberlain
#2 Michael Jordan
#3 ???
Kobe is pushing for #3
I have seen them all play.
I've been a Laker season ticket holder since 1969, front row.
Jack

[TDmvp]

Nba post Jordan sucks ...and im anti Jordan "Pacers fan" sigh Reggie Reggie ... but without MJ its been pretty stale...

id say top 5 all time and in whatever order you want is ... Magic , Larry , M.J. , Bill russell ... and ... The big O ... triple double avr for a whole season gets you on my list heheh....

[Circle Orange]

So freaking bored with this "Jordan uber all". It's tiresome and a symptom of people locked in the 80s. You'd think no one else was ever good at anything since the history of mankind. And who needs another Jordan? I want to see fresh faces, not remakes or repeats.

The 'greatest' argument means nothing. Who was the so called 'greatest of all time' before Jordan? There's always somebody else in the picture...if you're the greatest than obviously no one in the future can ever compete, right???

[BoiseBluTurf]

Another point of view!


Putting Kobe in perspective
By Jemele Hill
Page 2

Kobe Bryant is better than Michael Jordan.

Not more successful.

Hasn't had a bigger economic impact.

Hasn't won more MVPs.




Noah Graham/NBAE via Getty Images
Kobe Bryant did something Michael Jordan never
did -- score 50-plus in four consecutive games.Hasn't won more titles.

But he's a better player.

Kobe can do everything Michael did, and even a few things Michael couldn't do.

Kobe is just as good a defender. His killer instinct is just as pronounced. He can shoot, finish and explode. And just like Jordan, the more he's pissed off, the more unstoppable he is.

At the very least, Kobe's scoring spree over the last week should put to rest any lingering doubts that he's the best player in the NBA. Yes, better than Steve Nash, who is the best point guard, but not the lethal force that Kobe is. Yes, better than Dwyane Wade, who is certainly closer to the Kobe-Jordan level than LeBron James, but D-Wade's game is not as polished as Kobe's.

Kobe's streak of four straight 50-points-plus games is something none of those players can do, and it's something that hasn't been done since Wilt Chamberlain, who had an NBA-record seven straight 50-point games. Truthfully, Kobe should have tacked another 50 on Golden State on Sunday night.

Of course, the idea that Kobe is better than Jordan -- or even the best player in this league -- is as repugnant to some folks as a rectal exam. Even though Kobe has proven himself under pressure countless times, he gets the A-Rod treatment.

Kobe can't please anyone. And it doesn't help that most people suffer from revisionist history when it comes to Jordan, forgetting that he was just as poor a teammate and a ball hog and that he ran off coach Doug Collins like Kobe ran off Phil Jackson the first time.

In fact, you could argue that Jordan was even worse. Far as we know, Kobe hasn't jacked up any of his teammates the way Jordan punched out Steve Kerr and Will Perdue at practice.

Kobe will never be forgiven for Shaq's departure, but you're delusional if you think Jordan wouldn't have had any ego issues playing alongside a player with Shaq's star power.

The best-player argument shouldn't be determined by personal dislike. But if you want to take it there, fine. Jordan was hardly the ideal husband, but only the tabloids were brave enough to venture into his personal life. And what about those gambling issues? If Jordan's life had been covered like Kobe's, we would have an entirely different opinion of His Airness.

Besides a different level of media scrutiny, there was definitely a difference in the level of competition during Jordan's heyday compared to now.




AP Photo/Mark J. Terrill
We ask you to step back and take an objective look. Isn't Kobe the best player in the NBA?Yesterday's NBA player certainly was more fundamentally sound, but there's no question that today's player is bigger, stronger and faster. When Jordan played, he was a singular force that could not be equaled. Jordan was guarded by the likes of John Starks and Joe Dumars, who were fine players but weren't nearly as skilled or physically imposing as LeBron, D-Wade, Tracy McGrady or even Vince Carter.

The NBA is tougher now.

Kobe, like Michael, is surrounded with mediocre to below-average talent, and Phoenix, Dallas and San Antonio are all better than the Utah, Portland and the Charles Barkley-led Phoenix team that Michael met in the NBA Finals.

Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson and Patrick Ewing will be among the best centers ever, but none of them affected the league the way Shaq and Tim Duncan have. There are two two-time MVPs in Kobe's own conference (Duncan, Nash), which is a problem Jordan never faced during his championship runs. Seven-footers weren't launching 3s back then. Magic Johnson and the Lakers were on a downward spiral, and the Pistons were on their last legs. It was Michael and everyone else. That's not the case for Kobe.

The shame of it is that Kobe might finish his career without a MVP, even though his ability can be compared only to that of Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain. All this time we've been looking for a player who is better than Jordan, but most of us can't get beyond whether we like or dislike Kobe as a person to recognize his contributions to the game.

Ultimately the MVP award will go to either Nash or Dirk Nowitzki, who are deserving this season, but neither are as good as Kobe. Dallas and Phoenix are strong enough to make the playoffs without their stars. The Lakers, however, are a lottery team without Kobe.

Now that's a valuable player.

[CBF1]

Wilt is the best ever. I like Kobe and MJ, but hands down Wilt was the best. When you have to change the rules because of a player that should tell you everything you need to know.

PS: I agree with the."Todays NBS sucks" comments.

[Master___Pain]

The writer of the article that Boise posted has some serious flaws in his comparisons. I read two and stopped reading because the second was so bad.

1. Kobe is as good a defender as MJ.
Absolutely false. Kobe may be a good defender but MJ was a great defender.

2.Comparing MJ running Doug Collins off to Kobe chasing off Phil Jackson
Running off a coach that has 9 rings vs. Doug Freaking Collins....give me a damn break.

Kobe is a great player, no doubt about it, but he will never reach the level of MJ in most people's eyes, rightly or wrongly, because he's a perceived as a dick. MJ may have been as big an a-hole as Kobe but the personality he put on for public display was very likable. It's kind of like how Bond's is treated, even before the steriod stuff. He was the best player in MLB during the 90s, but no one wanted to acknowledge it or give him his due because he's a colossal prick.

[Jason in LA]

All these "Greatest ever" debates are getting out of hand. Everytime somebody does something great the debate comes up. Tom Brady was thrown into the conversation leading into the AFC title game. Funny that after he lost the debate went away. Then after Manning finally wins the Super Bowl there were people trying to say he was the greatest ever.

People are too quick to throw somebody's name into the debate.

Is Kobe the greatest ever? Not at this point, and he probably won't finish as the greatest ever...unless the Lakers can get some talent around him really fast. Will Kobe go down as one of the top 10 greatest? Yeah. We'll have to see how high he can climb up that latter. But at this point he is not on the level of Jordan.

Kobe is my favorite player right now, but I'm not going to get carried away. He's clearly the best in the game right now, but he has a long way to go to reach Jordan.

[Garcia Bronco]

So freaking bored with this "Jordan uber all". It's tiresome and a symptom of people locked in the 80s. You'd think no one else was ever good at anything since the history of mankind. And who needs another Jordan? I want to see fresh faces, not remakes or repeats.

The 'greatest' argument means nothing. Who was the so called 'greatest of all time' before Jordan? There's always somebody else in the picture...if you're the greatest than obviously no one in the future can ever compete, right???


Bill Russell

[Willynowei]

The writer of the article that Boise posted has some serious flaws in his comparisons. I read two and stopped reading because the second was so bad.

1. Kobe is as good a defender as MJ.
Absolutely false. Kobe may be a good defender but MJ was a great defender.

2.Comparing MJ running Doug Collins off to Kobe chasing off Phil Jackson
Running off a coach that has 9 rings vs. Doug Freaking Collins....give me a damn break.


I agree dude.

Kobe is extremely hardworking and because of that his skill level is just incredible. But he's simply not as athletic as MJ was. IMO, b/c of the difference in leaping ability and quickness, Kobe simply can't get to the level of defensive, rebounding and transitional basketball MJ played. This is not a wait 5 years and see type of deal, outside of offense Kobe can't get any better, b/c its a question of athleticism, he'll always fall short in those areas.

On the other hand, someone like Vince Carter could be, but he's got no heart and no skill. If Kobe had Carter's body, these crazy articles saying he's more effective than MJ may very well be true. That said, if Kobe wins even one championship with that sorry excuse for an NBA basketball team he's playing with, I'll call him the greatest ever - no doubt about that.