Sweet Jesus we have a damn pass rush already!

[TheReverend]

Sorry for the long title but for christ's sake give it a rest. Lang and Ekuban weren't slouches posting 6 and 7 sacks respectively. Then, we have one of the premier young pass rushers in the league with Dumervil, who in one limited season, posted 8.5 sacks, 1 FF, and 3 FR... made even more amazing considering the defense tackle experiment that waste of genetics, Larry Coyer, put him through. All this under a coordinator that wasted passing downs playing them at read fronts, covering flats and slants, or just god awful stunts that took 5 minutes to develop. Don't forget that Dumervil is Bates' type... a fast, pass rushing DE that he can split wide and set to attack.

Bates also employs a more "in your face" bump and run cover, which will cost the timing of routes a few seconds and buy more time for our ends to crush the pocket, as opposed to the famed Larry Coyer "play 10-15 yards off and give up the first down Darrent (RIP)" approach.

Will I be surprised if we draft DL round 1? No. But I won't be surprised if we draft WR, S, or OT either. Frankly, can anyone really be surprised by anything this far into the Sunquist/Shannahan draft tenure?

Everyone try to settle down, look at the beautiful off-season that's happened so far... huge player acquisitions, and even greater coaching ones, and let Bates pick his toys that he has to play with. Sweet dreams of Lombardi trophies.

[TheDave]

If we don't draft a D-Lineman in the 1st 2 rounds this year I'm going to make O4L's meltdown look tame

[BlaK-Argentina]

If we don't draft a D-Lineman in the 1st 2 rounds this year I'm going to make O4L's meltdown look tame

Where the heck is Jake (O4L) anyway?

[TheReverend]

If we don't draft a D-Lineman in the 1st 2 rounds this year I'm going to make O4L's meltdown look tame

Just answer this... what, specifically, do you want out of a new D-lineman?

[Killericon]

Just answer this... what, specifically, do you want out of a new D-lineman?

Great, run-stuffing interior play.

[listopencil]

Just answer this... what, specifically, do you want out of a new D-lineman?

I want a DT. I want a guy that the offensive line has to scheme for. I want a guy that has to be accounted for on every snap or all hell breaks loose.

[TheDave]

Just answer this... what, specifically, do you want out of a new D-lineman?


Someone who can stop the run consistently and/or put consistent pressure on the QB... End result some level of consistency which is something we have none of right now. We have a line full of players that flash for a play or 2 then disappear for entire games.

Rev you are kidding yourself if you actually think our D-Line talent is acceptable and coaching was the only problem. This line was absolutely pathetic at pressuring QB's, and as if that wasn't enough, they became useless at stopping the run as the season progressed. We are absolutely pathetic along the line and without an infusion of talent someone in our secondary is going to look like Roc Alexander again and again.

[ludo21]

^^^ what they said ^^^

[TheReverend]

Great, run-stuffing interior play.

# Alvin McKinley
Position: DT
Height: 6-3
Weight: 294
Born: 06/09/1978
College: Mississippi State
NFL Experience: 8

Career Stats | Game Logs: 01 02 03 04 05 06 | Situational Stats | Team Roster



Defensive Stats
Year Team G Total Tkl Ast Sacks Int Yds Avg Lg TD Pass Def
2000 Carolina Panthers 7 9 9.0 0 0 0 0 0.0 0 0 0
2001 Cleveland Browns 7 12 6.0 6 0 0 0 0.0 0 0 0
2002 Cleveland Browns 13 11 7.0 4 0 0 0 0.0 0 0 2
2003 Cleveland Browns 9 23 9.0 14 0 0 0 0.0 0 0 0
2004 Cleveland Browns 16 49 29.0 20 3 0 0 0.0 0 0 1
2005 Cleveland Browns 16 68 45.0 23 5 0 0 0.0 0 0 0
2006 Cleveland Browns 14 45 30.0 15 1 0 0 0.0 0 0 0
TOTAL 82 217 135.0 82 9 0 0 0.0 0 0 3


Fumbles
Year Team G Fum Lost Fum Forced Own Rec Opp Rec Yds Tot Rec TD
2000 Carolina Panthers 7 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2001 Cleveland Browns 7 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2002 Cleveland Browns 13 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2003 Cleveland Browns 9 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
2004 Cleveland Browns 16 0 0 0 0 2 0 2 0
2005 Cleveland Browns 16 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
2006 Cleveland Browns 14 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
TOTAL 82 0 0 1 0 2 0 2 0


Productive run stopper and more than capable of standing up blockers in a Bates system.

[listopencil]

# Alvin McKinley

Productive run stopper and more than capable of standing up blockers in a Bates system.



I'll believe it when/if I see it.

[TheReverend]

Someone who can stop the run consistently and/or put consistent pressure on the QB... End result some level of consistency which is something we have none of right now. We have a line full of players that flash for a play or 2 then disappear for entire games.

Rev you are kidding yourself if you actually think our D-Line talent is acceptable and coaching was the only problem. This line was absolutely pathetic at pressuring QB's, and as if that wasn't enough, they became useless at stopping the run as the season progressed. We are absolutely pathetic along the line and without an infusion of talent someone in our secondary is going to look like Roc Alexander again and again.

Can't pressure the QB when you're playing run first on 3rd and long. Also, catch NFL replay or watch Broncos tapes and see how far Coyer has Darrent playing off the receiver on 3rd downs and then count out how long it takes from the snap to the throw.

VERY few sacks occur in 2 seconds.

[TheDave]

at best Alvin McKiney represents a slight upgrade over Meyers...

[TheReverend]

I'll believe it when/if I see it.

You have a good argument of wanting a true powerhouse to control the LOS and commanding double teams to free up the other guys. What you're going to get from Bates is a big body run/blocker jammer to keep the LBs active. And when you see that, you're going to love it.

[baja]

Where the heck is Jake (O4L) anyway?

He's dating Becky4J ;D

[TheReverend]

at best Alvin McKiney represents a slight upgrade over Meyers...

and thats a bad thing? Meyer's is no Kris Jenkins but he was a solid contributor for 2 years... you act like he's Fatafehi or Pope or something. the sky isn't falling thedave, it's right where it should be... in the top 5 of the NFL.

[TheDave]

Can't pressure the QB when you're playing run first on 3rd and long. Also, catch NFL replay or watch Broncos tapes and see how far Coyer has Darrent playing off the receiver on 3rd downs and then count out how long it takes from the snap to the throw.

VERY few sacks occur in 2 seconds.

We were not playing run first on 3rd and long... I agree that Darrent played off of the man too much, but that had very little to do with our pathetic pass rush. While you are watching these replays notice how often we resorted to blitzing in the 2nd half of the season. It was the only way to pressure the opposing team... and everyone knew it.

[baja]

Can't pressure the QB when you're playing run first on 3rd and long. Also, catch NFL replay or<b> watch Broncos tapes and see how far Coyer has Darrent playing off the receiver on 3rd downs and then count out how long it takes from the snap to the throw.

VERY few sacks occur in 2 seconds.</b>

EXACTLY!!!

This is what I was screaming (Typing in Caps) about for two seasons in the chat room.

[TheDave]

and thats a bad thing? Meyer's is no Kris Jenkins but he was a solid contributor for 2 years... you act like he's Fatafehi or Pope or something. the sky isn't falling thedave, it's right where it should be... in the top 5 of the NFL.

This is the same Mike Meyers that is currently unemployed...

"Top 5" what... D-Line?

[Barry Ramey]

How can someone possibly have watched the Broncos the last couple of years and not think they need help on the DL? I don't get it.

[Requiem]

Yeah, and the Pope's Jewish. ****.

[Northman]

Where the heck is Jake (O4L) anyway?

I think he is pondering retirement like a certain idol of his.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Tell us about how awesome Courtney Brown is again, Rev. ROFL!

[Sodak]

He's dating Becky4J ;D

The legend lives. EEEEeeeewwww...

[BroncoFanDoug]

I agree with some here - it's DT. We have the speed and athleticism on the ends. What I saw last year was QBs stepping up into a huge pocket created by their O-line pushing or holding our DTs. Move that line 2 feet into the backfield and our ends have a field day.

[cabronco]

How can someone possibly have watched the Broncos the last couple of years and not think they need help on the DL? I don't get it.

Meh, its just all in your head. The Broncos D-line dominated the last 2 years. Just re-watch film of third downs, and the 2nd half of games. Its not like the D was getting stood up at the LOS. ::)

[epicSocialism4tw]

Meh, its just all in your head. The Broncos D-line dominated the last 2 years. Just re-watch film of third downs, and the 2nd half of games. Its not like the D was getting stood up at the LOS. ::)


The line wasnt getting stood up, it was getting bowled over.

It amazes me that people can somehow rationalize what is easily the weakest part of the franchise.

[Bob]

How many games have you watched the last two years that we lost cause we applied very little pressure? I think Elvis was a GREAT pickup for us last year, but we can get an unmovable force in the 2nd, or third to clog up the middle -- it seems a harder thing to find a DE that can apply pressure consistantly. We were very fourtunate to find an effective DE in the fourth last year.

I dont know if Moss is the answer, but if we cant apply more pressure than last year, our Defence will eventualy implode like it did toward the end of the season.

[azbroncfan]

There isn't a pass rush I don't know what team you were watching. Not too often did Denver get a sack where the DE beat the OT outright for a sack. I saw Elvis do it a couple times but that was about it and the rest were coverage sacks. DL is in a much needed upgrade, no excuses are acceptable.

[RhymesayersDU]

If we don't draft a D-Lineman in the 1st 2 rounds this year I'm going to make O4L's meltdown look tame

^

[phibacka31]

I agree with pipcking up one or more of each
DT first though
I REALLY and i mean REALLY like Harrell as a DT:notworthy maybe tim crowder in the 2nd?

[footstepsfrom#27]

Crap...I read the thread title and thought we had signed somebody good.

[HEAV]

Just answer this... what, specifically, do you want out of a new D-lineman?



A three down player that can take advantage of the one on one blocking he would see(due to our fat linemen gettiing double teamed) on average.

Clearly the FO see's the need for a DE. They pushed for hard for Patrick Kerney, but he felt Seattle had a better shot at the Super Bowl.

There are a few retreads out on the market (Winstom) but the Draft holds the DE of the future. I think after the draft is when we see players liek Winstrom come in for visits.

Ekuban (if you remember) was being used as a DT at the end of the season.

Lang was to be a third down rusher, not an every down starter, but C. Brown knee didn't have anything left and Lang was forced to play more than expected.

Dumerville is a situational pass rusher nickle and Dime only.

Age is a factor with Lang and Ekuban also.

[azbroncfan]

Just answer this... what, specifically, do you want out of a new D-lineman?

Consistent pass rush and ability to beat a one on one block.

[Drek]

The initial assesment in this thread is actually spot on, we have some decent guys already for DE. Not guys we should be content with though, and it ignores our biggest defensive concern, DT. Warren is average there, Meyers was well below that. McKinley is a 3-4 DE, at best he'll contribute outside on running downs and inside on passing downs a la Pryce two years ago, only with less talent.

We need a legitimate DT. Branch, Harrell, or Mebane and I'm happy. Better yet, get a wide body like Soliai, Echols, Walter Thomas, etc. to back them up. We need interior size to take the beating off our linebackers or we'll see another late season swoon as opposing running games wear our front four out.

Then get an every down DE type prospect who can eventually generate serious pass rush.

[broncolife]

Miami D-line with Bates
RDE 99 Jason Taylor 91 Jay Williams 79 Lamanzar Williams
RDT 64 Larry Chester 92 Jeff Zgonina 76 Johnny Thomas
LDT 95 Tim Bowens 73 Dario Romero 78 Maurice Anderson
97 Davern Williams
LDE 93 Adewale Ogunleye(15 sacks one year) 90 Rob Burnett 96 David Bowens

It sure seems like Bates likes having a elite pass rusher.I wouldnt trade Jason Taylor for our whole fricken line.

[listopencil]

...Jibber jabber Star Wars dinosaurs GI Joe figures homo-erotic fantasy...


Jesus, after hours of lurking in your Mom's basement this is the best you can come up with for your trolling? Weak. Incredibly weak.

[phisig150]

Sorry for the long title but for christ's sake give it a rest. Lang and Ekuban weren't slouches posting 6 and 7 sacks respectively. Then, we have one of the premier young pass rushers in the league with Dumervil, who in one limited season, posted 8.5 sacks, 1 FF, and 3 FR... made even more amazing considering the defense tackle experiment that waste of genetics, Larry Coyer, put him through. All this under a coordinator that wasted passing downs playing them at read fronts, covering flats and slants, or just god awful stunts that took 5 minutes to develop. Don't forget that Dumervil is Bates' type... a fast, pass rushing DE that he can split wide and set to attack.

Bates also employs a more "in your face" bump and run cover, which will cost the timing of routes a few seconds and buy more time for our ends to crush the pocket, as opposed to the famed Larry Coyer "play 10-15 yards off and give up the first down Darrent (RIP)" approach.

Will I be surprised if we draft DL round 1? No. But I won't be surprised if we draft WR, S, or OT either. Frankly, can anyone really be surprised by anything this far into the Sunquist/Shannahan draft tenure?

Everyone try to settle down, look at the beautiful off-season that's happened so far... huge player acquisitions, and even greater coaching ones, and let Bates pick his toys that he has to play with. Sweet dreams of Lombardi trophies.

We do have a pass rush.
Manning PASSES their WRs RUSH past our corners due the lack of push by our DLINE. I like Dumervil he's promising but come on Lang, Eukaban we can do better.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

I agree with pipcking up one or more of each
DT first though
I REALLY and i mean REALLY like Harrell as a DT:notworthy maybe tim crowder in the 2nd?

Bingo - backa!

Rev is at least partially right. The critical need is not for a speed rusher on the weak side. Broncs have Elvis, Lang and EE that can play that position. Granted they aren't Pepper but there are no Peppers in this draft. They do have a serious gap at the strong side end without Brown. EE has tried valiantly, but its not his spot. Engleberger is the only one Broncs have to play that position. Its not the glamor position that gets the sacks, but it is one of the positions that makes the opportunities for the speed rushers. The two best in this draft are Carriker and Crowder. Won't get Carriker so take Crowder.

Harrell is the DT everyone wants, but most don't know it. Going into the year he was the number one DT prospect. He tore a bicep muscle early and had to have surgery. He has proved that the injury has healed by doing 30+ reps and his weight is up to 314. He is strong as an ox, has good quickness, never takes a play off (compared to most of the other DTs) and can have a real mean streak. If you don't believe it, get a tape of their game with Florida which was after the injury and he was playing with one arm.

[Crushaholic]

We have to get to a point where quarterbacks aren't able to to fix a ham sandwich, take a nap, do their business and THEN hit receivers. The second thing we need to do (and this is equally important) is to find an effective run stuffer. We play in the run-happy AFC West, after all...

[maven]

This team is looking more and more like Bates defense down in Miami. Quick turnaround and Bates has already made an improvement on this team in regards to the players picked up. Two cover corners, fast LB's, and fat slobs in the middle with pass rushers on the end. I would say Denver is still missing an elite edge rusher that can play every down and safeties that can cover ground.

[maven]

I would say the one fault Bates defense in Miami was not picking up killer safeties. That was his weakness in regards to his defense. Hopefully Denver drafts one this year in the 1st or 2nd round

Bates defense was killer, it was their pathetic offense that screwed them.

[maven]

Also, if our LB's don't wrap-up and tackle, they're out the f'n door in Bates system.

[phibacka31]

:thumbsup: Big Guy. You and me really seem to be hinting at harrell A LOT!I'm a HUGE fan of his. I'm going to say he will be the BEST DT in this draft class. I just hope and pray that the broncs take a SERIOUS look at him at 21. Really not a reach at all. We may have hope knowing shannys infatuation with INJ Players. Harrell Please be in Orange and Blue next year.:notworthy

[maven]

:thumbsup: Big Guy. You and me really seem to be hinting at harrell A LOT!I'm a HUGE fan of his. I'm going to say he will be the BEST DT in this draft class. I just hope and pray that the broncs take a SERIOUS look at him at 21. Really not a reach at all. We may have hope knowing shannys infatuation with INJ Players. Harrell Please be in Orange and Blue next year.:notworthy

Nah.

S, LB, DE is where Denver will go on defense.

I hope WR in 1st round.8') Then defense, offensive line the entire draft.8')

[Kaylore]

If we don't draft a D-Lineman in the 1st 2 rounds this year I'm going to make O4L's meltdown look tame

LOL That would be something.

[ZONA]

Nah.

S, LB, DE is where Denver will go on defense.

I hope WR in 1st round.8') Then defense, offensive line the entire draft.8')


Give it up - we don't need a WR in the 1st round. That position has by far the most flops in the 1st round. Why would you want to gamble on that, especially given our track record (Nash, Lelie). Cmon man, think!

[maven]

Give it up - we don't need a WR in the 1st round. That position has by far the most flops in the 1st round. Why would you want to gamble on that, especially given our track record (Nash, Lelie). Cmon man, think!

Hey, I want a super power offense.:peace: I want an offense that can put up 50 pts a game.:peace:

It doesn't mean it will happen, but I can dream.8') This team needs a S, LB, and DE with OL mixed in. The defense will be rebuilt under Bates. Bank on it. But, as with the defense I see it as a multiple year prospect. I see a huge turnaround in 2 years. This draft, UDFA, FA. Then FA next year, draft, UDFA/FA. Bates will bring the defense around. I'm looking at where Denver is positioned this year, and a potential great WR can be picked up at our current slot.

Don't get me wrong, I'll be happy if Denver goes DE/S with their 1st pick. I just want my Super Power Offense!8')

[maven]

Give it up - we don't need a WR in the 1st round. That position has by far the most flops in the 1st round. Why would you want to gamble on that, especially given our track record (Nash, Lelie). Cmon man, think!

And it's not so much of a pipe dream. Denver has Javon Walker and.... I don't consider Smith part of the equation since he'll most likely be gone after this season. Marshall was a rookie. Curtis and Stokely might not make the team. Hixon? WTF has he done? Where does that leave us? A possible huge hole at WR. Don't be shocked if Denver goes WR in the 1st round.

[ZONA]

Hey, I want a super power offense.:peace: I want an offense that can put up 50 pts a game.:peace:

It doesn't mean it will happen, but I can dream.8') This team needs a S, LB, and DE with OL mixed in. The defense will be rebuilt under Bates. Bank on it. But, as with the defense I see it as a multiple year prospect. I see a huge turnaround in 2 years. This draft, UDFA, FA. Then FA next year, draft, UDFA/FA. Bates will bring the defense around. I'm looking at where Denver is positioned this year, and a potential great WR can be picked up at our current slot.

Don't get me wrong, I'll be happy if Denver goes DE/S with their 1st pick. I just want my Super Power Offense!8')

You'll get your high powered offense as soon as our OL can get back to plowing holes for the RB's like they used to do. This is a running team and they're not going to have 2 Superstar WR's. We got one in Walker already. A great TE I can see that but we got a few guys we like at that position. Nah, the offense just needs time to gel under Jay and some more mean bastards up front.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

I want a D-line that will take back the LOS. I know this will draw the ire of many, but i wouldnt mind if we drafted D-line with our first 3 picks. At least the first two

[maven]

You'll get your high powered offense as soon as our OL can get back to plowing holes for the RB's like they used to do. This is a running team and they're not going to have 2 Superstar WR's. We got one in Walker already. A great TE I can see that but we got a few guys we like at that position. Nah, the offense just needs time to gel under Jay and some more mean bastards up front.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm sure some Mane members will agree and see the vision. Shanny has gone an evolution and finally has his QB to do it. Whether you want to believe it or not, our passing offense will be smoking. The running game will be there. It will not be as dominant as our SB days. Those days are over. But, I believe he's building a high power passing offense that will score 30+ points a game, delivered by air and not by ground. As Cutler develops, this team is going to turn into a high powered passing offense and the run will become secondary.

[Needa Pass Rush]

Just answer this... what, specifically, do you want out of a new D-lineman?

You're wrong on this one Rev. We have ballroom dancers on the DL, not playmakers. I would settle for someone who is willing to "cut in" when the game is on the line. :thumbs:

[kmartin575]

Ekuban and Lang are solid DE's? I can tell you now they don't strike fear in the hearts of any offensive coordinators. I hope the Broncos do keep them as your starting DE's.

[Popcorn Sutton]

Look at our stats on third down last year... We couldn't pressure the QB in passing situations.

[fontaine]

Bates also employs a more "in your face" bump and run cover, which will cost the timing of routes a few seconds and buy more time for our ends to crush the pocket, as opposed to the famed Larry Coyer "play 10-15 yards off and give up the first down Darrent (RIP)" approach.

Coyer didn't play DWill 10-15 yards off all the time. There were plenty of times when they showed that cushion only to close in when the ball was snapped.

Also it's pretty hilarious that Coyer gets ripped for giving that cushion to Dwill, but when it was done for Champ it resulted in him getting career highs in ints two seasons running and helped him reach a whole new level in CB play.

Why aren't you ripping into Coyer for giving that cushion to champ?

[Odysseus]

There isn't a pass rush I don't know what team you were watching. Not too often did Denver get a sack where the DE beat the OT outright for a sack. I saw Elvis do it a couple times but that was about it and the rest were coverage sacks. DL is in a much needed upgrade, no excuses are acceptable.

If the Broncos don't beg, borrow or steal a DT who is an impact player they are leaving our expensive CB open to hurting us. DWill was just getting to a point where he fully understood this position and would have been every bit as good as Dre Bly. What Bly brings is high competence and experience.

All this talk about Dre Bly and we have yet to hear the man speak.

Broncos have a lot of needs to address in the draft. They might have to pass on DT but if they get other key picks in place than we have a winner.

[Odysseus]

You're wrong on this one Rev. We have ballroom dancers on the DL, not playmakers. I would be settle for someone who is will to "cut in" when the game is on the line. :thumbs:

It cannot be any clearer than this. I don't care how much you pay Warren or how much of a paycut he takes. He wears ballet slippers.

[fontaine]

If the Broncos don't beg, borrow or steal a DT who is an impact player they are leaving our expensive CB open to hurting us. DWill was just getting to a point where he fully understood this position and would have been every bit as good as Dre Bly. What Bly brings is high competence and experience.

All this talk about Dre Bly and we have yet to hear the man speak.

Broncos have a lot of needs to address in the draft. They might have to pass on DT but if they get other key picks in place than we have a winner.


I dunno quietiger. I'm thinking with how aggressive they have been in FA (TE/RB/CB/WR), the only real needs we have in the draft will be Safety/DL.

Given how the draft is deep at Safety/DE we should be able to come out of it very well given how we've got 4 picks in the first day.

What else do you see as needs?

I'm thinking the way this team has been so quiet in not bringing in any safeties in FA that they fully intend on addressing these positions in the draft, especially considering the ages of our safeties and that brandon is coming off microfracture surgery.

[Rohirrim]

How can someone possibly have watched the Broncos the last couple of years and not think they need help on the DL? I don't get it.

It's the Rev's stock in trade... :stirstir:

[vancejohnson82]

is this really even a debate??? Did anyone watch the second half of the season???? Our D-line was non-existent for the last 7 games of the season or so....the D-Line stunk so we blitzed the linebackers, which in turn made the safeties cheat up to cover the middle underneath...hence, getting torched over the top on plenty of occassions....

I don't think the help has to be at DE...I would much prefer the DT that some of you have talked about....a big DT can help the linebackers roam a bit more and shoot the gaps withotu facing an unoccupied blocker which was the case all last year....look at our LBs sack numbers, they were horrific..

ANd Dumerville is GREAT in certain situations (ie. 3rd and LONG)...he can burn almost any OT and get to the quarterback on a 5-7 step drop....however, he is not goign to blow over the much bigger blockers on the shorter drops

[Los Broncos]

We need someone who can put some pressure on the qb on every play, nothing less will do.

[TheReverend]

Coyer didn't play DWill 10-15 yards off all the time. There were plenty of times when they showed that cushion only to close in when the ball was snapped.

Also it's pretty hilarious that Coyer gets ripped for giving that cushion to Dwill, but when it was done for Champ it resulted in him getting career highs in ints two seasons running and helped him reach a whole new level in CB play.

Why aren't you ripping into Coyer for giving that cushion to champ?

Because SLOWIK had Champ playing 6-7 yards off so he could read the QB and react for picks.

COYER had D-Will playing 10-15 back because he was afraid being beat deep.

[TheReverend]

It's the Rev's stock in trade... :stirstir:

I'm sure you, Mr Brillaint, and everyone else here claiming we have no pressure, has heard of the term coverage sacks.

Which teams do you think has such amazing DL play? Name them and I can guarantee the teams that are producing pressure from a 4-3 either play a base cover 2 or bump and run. This creates more pressure because it's in your face on the wide receivers, causing a delay in regaining the timing of QB/WR, and giving the DL 2-4 more seconds to get to the QB.

Notable teams with DL pressure:
Chicago (cover 2)
Indy (cover 2)
Carolina (BR)
Jacksonville (BR)

...and so on.

[TheReverend]

The line wasnt getting stood up, it was getting bowled over.

It amazes me that people can somehow rationalize what is easily the weakest part of the franchise.

Not really... don't mistake sloppy tackling for the line getting "bowled" over.

[TheReverend]

I know it might be hard to comprehend that the "OH MY GOD NO SACKS, MUST GET PEPPERS!" could just very well be a little more complicated, but try to keep in mind team concepts.

If Shannahan calls ****ty pass plays, our passing game suffers and so does our run game against a stacked box.

Same works for the defense.

[TheReverend]

Tell us about how awesome Courtney Brown is again, Rev. ROFL!

Yeah, Bob, we didn't miss his 1rst and 2nd down play at all last year...

2005 Rushing Defense
Team G Att Att/G Yds Avg Yds/G TDs FDs 20+
San Diego 16 386 24.1 1349 3.5 84.3 14 90 7
Denver 16 344 21.5 1363 4.0 85.2 10 82 6 Pittsburgh 16 402 25.1 1376 3.4 86.0 10 75 7
Carolina 16 408 25.5 1465 3.6 91.6 9 72 5
Seattle 16 420 26.2 1510 3.6 94.4 5 78

2006 Rushing Defense - Rushing Yards/Game
Team G Att Att/G Yds Avg Yds/G TDs FDs 20+
Minnesota 16 348 21.8 985 2.8 61.6 9 53 8
Baltimore 16 367 22.9 1214 3.3 75.9 5 59 4
Pittsburgh 16 408 25.5 1412 3.5 88.2 9 72 5
Jacksonville 16 420 26.2 1460 3.5 91.2 14 94 6
New England 16 388 24.2 1507 3.9 94.2 11 67 6
Chicago 16 402 25.1 1590 4.0 99.4 7 77 13
San Diego 16 386 24.1 1613 4.2 100.8 13 87 8
Miami 16 461 28.8 1618 3.5 101.1 7 72 3
Atlanta 16 442 27.6 1657 3.7 103.6 14 97 5
Dallas 16 429 26.8 1659 3.9 103.7 12 88 5
Carolina 16 449 28.1 1737 3.9 108.6 10 96 11
Denver 16 447 27.9 1813 4.1 113.3 13 97 9

[55CrushEm]

A couple of mocks I've seen have us taking Jarvis Moss from Florida. I'd be OK with this.

He's built just like Jason Taylor.....tall and lean, and I'm assuming fast. He's 6'6", 250lbs.

Taylor is 6'6", 255lbs.

I read many times that Bates likes his DE's in a mold such as that......so if Bates can get the most out of tall, skinny DE's......let's do it.

[Willynowei]

Forget sacks, forget numbers and all that. Watching the game, its obvious to me that our Defensive linemen, specifically our Defensive tackles get no push. They get stood up at the line of scrimmage and moved back in passing situations, which is awful for starting NFL linemen.

Our D-ends were adequate but by no means good last year, they had average performance in the pass rush but their dedication to stunts created huge holes in the run defense. We need to get two impact players on our d-line and stop neglecting one of the most important units in football.

[Rohirrim]

I'm sure you, Mr Brillaint, and everyone else here claiming we have no pressure, has heard of the term coverage sacks.

Which teams do you think has such amazing DL play? Name them and I can guarantee the teams that are producing pressure from a 4-3 either play a base cover 2 or bump and run. This creates more pressure because it's in your face on the wide receivers, causing a delay in regaining the timing of QB/WR, and giving the DL 2-4 more seconds to get to the QB.

Notable teams with DL pressure:
Chicago (cover 2)
Indy (cover 2)
Carolina (BR)
Jacksonville (BR)

...and so on.

And yet, the top five sack leaders of 2006 don't come from any of those teams. Imagine that. Coverage has it's limitations as well. It's a chicken and egg argument; Does coverage create sacks or does the rush create TOs?Anyway, the Broncos have all the coverage they need with the signing of Bly. Now they need to get the player that wins the fight on the line and forces the QB to throw when he doesn't want to.

[TheReverend]

And yet, the top five sack leaders of 2006 don't come from any of those teams. Imagine that. Coverage has it's limitations as well. It's a chicken and egg argument; Does coverage create sacks or does the rush create TOs?Anyway, the Broncos have all the coverage they need with the signing of Bly. Now they need to get the player that wins the fight on the line and forces the QB to throw when he doesn't want to.

I have to admit Rohirrim, I'm fascinated by the sheer volume of stupidity you can manage to cram into one paragraph. There's quite a few posters requesting 3 down linemen, or pushing the pocket from the inside, and you find a way to say completely nothing. Are you completely admitting you know nothing about NFL coverages and their effects/purposes? I named the more notable teams that use those systems... certainly NOT all of them.

Let me spell it out for you because you're exceptionally slow:

1. S. Merriman SD 17 (3-4)
2. A. Kampman GB 15.5 (bump and run)
3. A. Schobel BUF 14 (bump and run, may change this season without clements)
4. J. Taylor MIA 13.5 (bump and run)
5. T. Pryce BAL 13 (VERY bump and run, physical hands on and attacking corners)

Funny that you bring up the "top 5" pass rushers in your argument to prove our pass rush is weak, we find Trevor Pryce up to 13 sacks from 4... thats a 325% increase... did he just get phenomenally better with another year of age or can we finally admit that a decent coordinator will produce?

[TheReverend]

And yet, the top five sack leaders of 2006 don't come from any of those teams. Imagine that. Coverage has it's limitations as well. It's a chicken and egg argument; Does coverage create sacks or does the rush create TOs?Anyway, the Broncos have all the coverage they need with the signing of Bly. Now they need to get the player that wins the fight on the line and forces the QB to throw when he doesn't want to.

Oh and as for the Chicken and the Egg bit... wtf are you talking about?

Coverage DOES create sacks and pressure creates turnovers. Soft zones create first downs... that's why they're used in a prevent to chew clock, not to surrender 2nd half leads like Coyer used it.

[TheDave]

Sooo Rev who do you think we should draft?

[broncsyanks]

Just answer this... what, specifically, do you want out of a new D-lineman?

a defensive line that can make peyton manning run all the time and hit him right on his ass. :~ohyah!:

[Popps]

You're wrong on this one Rev. We have ballroom dancers on the DL, not playmakers. I would be settle for someone who is will to "cut in" when the game is on the line. :thumbs:

Our starters are invisible on third downs and our third down specialist (Dumervil) is still a work in progress, only showing up against poor teams last year.

Our needs on the d-line are just painfully obvious. But, looks like Shanahan is going to solve the problems from the back-forward again this year. So, we'll see if we can buck the massive odds against a team winning a Superbowl with sub-par d-line talent.

That is, unless we decide to get serious about the line in the draft, which we haven't done in over a decade.

[TheReverend]

Sooo Rev who do you think we should draft?

Honestly, the only thing that will surprise me on draft day is if we don't make a move up or down... up for impact, down for depth and development.

That being said my favorites that could slide to 21 are Branch, Okoye, Willis, Carriker, Poszlunsky and Ginn.

[TheDave]

Honestly, the only thing that will surprise me on draft day is if we don't make a move up or down... up for impact, down for depth and development.

That being said my favorites that could slide to 21 are Branch, Okoye, Willis, Carriker, Poszlunsky and Ginn.

Soo if 50% of the players you hope we go after are D-lineman... why did you start this thread???

[TheReverend]

Soo if 50% of the players you hope we go after are D-lineman... why did you start this thread???

Because I'm sick of people claiming our QB pressure woes were because of "poor D-line talent" when it's simply not the case. Would I like to inject an impact player into the DT rotation and infuse some young talent and depth into the d-line? of course. but at the same time I think safety, tackle and linebacker could use the SAME attention.

[Odysseus]

I dunno quietiger. I'm thinking with how aggressive they have been in FA (TE/RB/CB/WR), the only real needs we have in the draft will be Safety/DL.

Given how the draft is deep at Safety/DE we should be able to come out of it very well given how we've got 4 picks in the first day.

What else do you see as needs?

I'm thinking the way this team has been so quiet in not bringing in any safeties in FA that they fully intend on addressing these positions in the draft, especially considering the ages of our safeties and that brandon is coming off microfracture surgery.

If we get a killer S, a LB genius and a DE who is top flight but we don't control the line of scrimmage what are we really doing?

I'm not going to go crazy if we don't pick up a DT Day one. We have a LOT of holes and if we don't pick up the best available players to fill those holes all we are going to do is continue masking a problem. Maybe we don't find the big impact DT. I don't think we should over commit or reach. Take what you can and then build on it.

The Broncos seem committed to putting value players on the LOS rather than paying a couple DT to move the pile so that the rest of the defense can clean up. I don't know why but this annual mistake isn't a mistake. It's just stupid.

Why don't the Broncos go out and get a real fullback? It's on purpose.

[Popps]

The Broncos seem committed to putting value players on the LOS rather than paying a couple DT to move the pile so that the rest of the defense can clean up. I don't know why but this annual mistake isn't a mistake. It's just stupid.

Exactly... and the "there aren't any good players available" excuse expires after a few years, much less a decade.

So, now... we throw more money at the CB position, hoping to make up for a weak front 7, I suppose. That's about as ass-backwards as it gets. Par for course with our defensive moves for quite some time now.

We're back to praying that Shanahan takes some D-line help in the draft on day one, and actually hits one this time. It might help if he tried landing someone in the first 100 picks. Just a thought.

[Odysseus]

What part of LINE OF SCRIMMAGE don't the Broncos get?

[Atlas]

Sorry for the long title but for christ's sake give it a rest. Lang and Ekuban weren't slouches posting 6 and 7 sacks respectively. Then, we have one of the premier young pass rushers in the league with Dumervil, who in one limited season, posted 8.5 sacks, 1 FF, and 3 FR... made even more amazing considering the defense tackle experiment that waste of genetics, Larry Coyer, put him through. All this under a coordinator that wasted passing downs playing them at read fronts, covering flats and slants, or just god awful stunts that took 5 minutes to develop. Don't forget that Dumervil is Bates' type... a fast, pass rushing DE that he can split wide and set to attack.

Bates also employs a more "in your face" bump and run cover, which will cost the timing of routes a few seconds and buy more time for our ends to crush the pocket, as opposed to the famed Larry Coyer "play 10-15 yards off and give up the first down Darrent (RIP)" approach.

Will I be surprised if we draft DL round 1? No. But I won't be surprised if we draft WR, S, or OT either. Frankly, can anyone really be surprised by anything this far into the Sunquist/Shannahan draft tenure?

Everyone try to settle down, look at the beautiful off-season that's happened so far... huge player acquisitions, and even greater coaching ones, and let Bates pick his toys that he has to play with. Sweet dreams of Lombardi trophies.


I agree. Lang, Ecuban and Dumerville are good enough. I however think Denver needs to get a monster DT. Next to Warren these two could collapes the pocket and the DEs will get many more sacks. Last year I said Denver should draft Ngata. I think he would have been a great choice. I feel the same this year. I like the DEs. Get a space eating, pocket pushing bad ass DT and watch how great this defense can be.

[Rohirrim]

I have to admit Rohirrim, I'm fascinated by the sheer volume of stupidity you can manage to cram into one paragraph. There's quite a few posters requesting 3 down linemen, or pushing the pocket from the inside, and you find a way to say completely nothing. Are you completely admitting you know nothing about NFL coverages and their effects/purposes? I named the more notable teams that use those systems... certainly NOT all of them.

Let me spell it out for you because you're exceptionally slow:

1. S. Merriman SD 17 (3-4)
2. A. Kampman GB 15.5 (bump and run)
3. A. Schobel BUF 14 (bump and run, may change this season without clements)
4. J. Taylor MIA 13.5 (bump and run)
5. T. Pryce BAL 13 (VERY bump and run, physical hands on and attacking corners)

Funny that you bring up the "top 5" pass rushers in your argument to prove our pass rush is weak, we find Trevor Pryce up to 13 sacks from 4... thats a 325% increase... did he just get phenomenally better with another year of age or can we finally admit that a decent coordinator will produce?

This is why I don't bother responding to your posts. You're like some five foot nothing guy who walks into the bar and starts picking fights for no good reason other than you're an ahole.

You really think you're saying something there? What? Every team uses some kind of coverage? And that coverage has some kind of effect on the pass rush? Keep working on that. Maybe the Nobel committee will hear about you.

[TheReverend]

This is why I don't bother responding to your posts. You're like some five foot nothing guy who walks into the bar and starts picking fights for no good reason other than you're an ahole.

You really think you're saying something there? What? Every team uses some kind of coverage? And that coverage has some kind of effect on the pass rush? Keep working on that. Maybe the Nobel committee will hear about you.

No, just stating how over your head the relationship of coverage and pressure are, and how it continues to be wayyyyyyyyy beyond your idiotic grasp.

[Lestat]

we have guys who can get clean up sacks(or coverage sacks) but we do not have a push rush

as pass rush is when you can have 4 down linemen & get pressure on the QB on any given play

[GonzoLays]

Bates has made a living off making late round draft pick DE superstars in the NFL.

He turned an unknown Jason Taylor into a beast. Taylor's top two sack seasons of his career came under Bates (18.5 and 14.5 sacks).

He made Adewale Ogunleye a 15 sack man in 2003. Since Adewale has been in Chicago, he has a grand total of 20 sacks.

Old friend David Bowens even had a 7 sack season playing only part time behind Taylor a couple of years back.

And he is pretty good with CBs too. When Patrick Surtain played for him, he routinely finished with 6 or 7 ints a year. Last year, Surtain had a grand total of one interception for the Chiefs.

With all this in mind, you can see why, as thereverend pointed out, we don't need to draft a DE this year. With Bates style of play, our DE's are going to rack more sacks because they simply have more opportunity to do it.

If Ebenezer Ekuban can get 7.0 sacks under Coyers blocking dummy philosophy, then you can say with a straight face that he has a strong possibility of getting 10 sacks this year.

Elvis D got 8.5 sacks last season in limited playing time. How many sacks can he get playing Jason Taylor's role in our defense? 12? 15? And yes, he will be a full time starter next season. Because of Dummervil's condor-like wingspan, he plays bigger than he is. Besides, Dwighty Freeney is Elvis' size and I don't see that stop him from being a starter in the NFL.

Elvis is going to be a beast next season. BOOK IT!!!

THE GREAT GONZOLAYS!!!!

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Bates has made a living off making late round draft pick DE superstars in the NFL.

He turned an unknown Jason Taylor into a beast. Taylor's top two sack seasons of his career came under Bates (18.5 and 14.5 sacks).

He made Adewale Ogunleye a 15 sack man in 2003. Since Adewale has been in Chicago, he has a grand total of 20 sacks.

Old friend David Bowens even had a 7 sack season playing only part time behind Taylor a couple of years back.

And he is pretty good with CBs too. When Patrick Surtain played for him, he routinely finished with 6 or 7 ints a year. Last year, Surtain had a grand total of one interception for the Chiefs.

With all this in mind, you can see why, as thereverend pointed out, we don't need to draft a DE this year. With Bates style of play, our DE's are going to rack more sacks because they simply have more opportunity to do it.

If Ebenezer Ekuban can get 7.0 sacks under Coyers blocking dummy philosophy, then you can say with a straight face that he has a strong possibility of getting 10 sacks this year.

Elvis D got 8.5 sacks last season in limited playing time. How many sacks can he get playing Jason Taylor's role in our defense? 12? 15? And yes, he will be a full time starter next season. Because of Dummervil's condor-like wingspan, he plays bigger than he is. Besides, Dwighty Freeney is Elvis' size and I don't see that stop him from being a starter in the NFL.

Elvis is going to be a beast next season. BOOK IT!!!

THE GREAT GONZOLAYS!!!!


Bates will fix everything! Baaaaaaaaaaates!

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Man this really sounds familiar! Where have I heard the reasoning that a defensive coordinator will save a team's defense before? Hmmmmmm.

All the while Chef fans are just waiting for Gunther to fix everything. ;D

Ha! all we need is Gunther Hilarious!

[GonzoLays]

Bates will fix everything! Baaaaaaaaaaates!

Fix what?

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Boob - Go back to pounding your pud - Welcher

[ward63]

Get some DT's in here that are BIG! I think we don't really need much for DE to fit into Bates' scheme.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

BATES WILL FIX EVERYTHING! BAAAAAAAAAAAAAATES!

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/8232/batesbr3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/1368/bates3dn3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[GonzoLays]

BATES WILL FIX EVERYTHING! BAAAAAAAAAAAAAATES!

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/8232/batesbr3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/1368/bates3dn3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Oh, I get it. You keep saying Bates will fix everything so you can post the pics you spent hours on cropping his head on Bronco defenders.

Happy now?

Good luck with that.

[Popcorn Sutton]

There was no saving the Queefs D back then... Gunther is a good coordinator but you had squat for players.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

TheReverend looks pretty dumb now, eh?

Lang and Ekuban weren't slouches posting 6 and 7 sacks respectively. Then, we have one of the premier young pass rushers in the league with Dumervil, who in one limited season, posted 8.5 sacks, 1 FF, and 3 FR... made even more amazing considering the defense tackle experiment that waste of genetics, Larry Coyer, put him through. All this under a coordinator that wasted passing downs playing them at read fronts, covering flats and slants, or just god awful stunts that took 5 minutes to develop. Don't forget that Dumervil is Bates' type... a fast, pass rushing DE that he can split wide and set to attack.

[Taco John]

At least he doesn't look like an honorless bet welcher.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Actually, that's precisely what he is.

[fdf]

Everyone try to settle down, look at the beautiful off-season that's happened so far... huge player acquisitions, and even greater coaching ones, and let Bates pick his toys that he has to play with. Sweet dreams of Lombardi trophies.

Disagree with your conclusion. DE's get sacks only when the DT's push the front of the pocket back. You saw it over and over last year. A DE would get good penetration, the QB would step up into the pocket, and the DE would be flailing around two-three yards behind the quarterback while the quarterback cleaned his toenails looking for an open receiver. Look for lots more of that this year. DE was not the big need. DT was and we've gone downhill at that position.

We had a really good offseason on Offense. But after two solid drafts, we're back to old-time, Denver-style drafting. Yuck.

[Atlas]

Bates also employs a more "in your face" bump and run cover, which will cost the timing of routes a few seconds and buy more time for our ends to crush the pocket, as opposed to the famed Larry Coyer "play 10-15 yards off and give up the first down Darrent (RIP)" approach.

.

Good post I would like to point out that Champ owes all his recent success the last two years because he was palying off the WR and looking at the QB instead of the WR. Bly can play bump and run just let Champ do whatever the hell he wants to.

[crazyhorse]

At least he doesn't look like an honorless bet welcher.

Honorless bet welcher is being kind.

Bob took the money from a man who worked to earn a living on a bet he won. While he negleted to pay up on a bet that cost him absolutely nothing. That is a man who lacks even the mildest form of integrity.

He's not a bet welcher. He's a human being devoid of responsibility and self respect sucking the tit of those that work to be the man his mommy tells him he is.

It's one thing to be oblivious to it. But when you know what you are and do nothing to change it, that makes you a drag on society.

Bob will spend a great deal of his life sucking the life out of his mother, before finally becoming a welfare drain on my wallet.

Bet welcher?

Sucubus (sp) with no integrity would be more accurate.

He needs his ass kicked. If I ever met him at a game, he'd get 50 bucks in ass whippings from me with Atlas' name on it.

Wanna bet on that bob?

The fact I get banned while you continue to post is beyond me. Enforcing a bet is one thing. I realize that you cannot enforce every bet on a football forum. Setting the precident would be counter productive. However, the reaction from that single bet has caused more fallout on this forum than any post I have ever posted. Personally, I'm offended you still have access. I can only imagine how the other posters here feel.

[Barry Ramey]

This is why sacks can be so misleading. 6 sacks. 8 sacks. All sounds good, but one can get a sack on one play, but never get near the QB in all the other pass plays. So is that guy really causing problems?

Anyone who has watched the Broncos the last few years can tell you they allow QB's way too much time to pick and choose where to go with the ball.

Sacks are great, but I want more consistent pressure that at least causes hurried throws. I'll take the sacks of course, but if I had to choose, I'll take a DL who may not get a sack in a game, but makes the QB hurry his throw a handful of times or so over a DL who gets a sack, but never gets near the QB again the rest of the game.

Anyone who really thinks Ekuban and Lang are the answers long term at the DE spots really needs to watch more football.

[dsmoot]

Coyer didn't play DWill 10-15 yards off all the time. There were plenty of times when they showed that cushion only to close in when the ball was snapped.

Also it's pretty hilarious that Coyer gets ripped for giving that cushion to Dwill, but when it was done for Champ it resulted in him getting career highs in ints two seasons running and helped him reach a whole new level in CB play.

Why aren't you ripping into Coyer for giving that cushion to champ?

Come On. The cushion Champ took and the exact same cushion that Dwill took did not produce the same results. I wonder why???? Could it be that one had the athletic capability, the ability to recognize the play, the abiltiy to react and close and the other player didn't. Champ baited the other team in coming at him. The opposing team just went after Dwill no matter what look he was giving them.

[TheReverend]

Actually, that's precisely what he is.

Bobby, did you delete your little thread where we had that bet so you could pretend you won it?

[Lev Vyvanse]

Bobby, did you delete your little thread where we had that bet so you could pretend you won it?

Is this the one
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=27230

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Bobby, did you delete your little thread where we had that bet so you could pretend you won it?

Eat **** mother****er. Go suck off Courtney Brown.

[Inkana7]

Eat **** mother****er. Go suck off Courtney Brown.

Awww..does someone have a stubbed vagina?

[TheDave]

Eat **** mother****er. Go suck off Courtney Brown.

Hey TJ, your pet just sh!t the rug again.

[Sassy]

Why was he allowed back again???