Pat Tillman -- and the myth of the hero

[mhgaffney]

This hits the proverbial nail -- and draws the correct conclusion. No doubt, the author will incite another bushel of hate mail.

MHG

March 26, 2007
http://www.counterpunch.org/mickey03262007.html

The Myth of the Hero

Pat Tillman: Beyond the Hype

By MICKEY Z.

The American football hero may be gone but details of his mysterious death in Afghanistan just won't go away. Most recently, as reported by Time Magazine, "Nine officers, including up to four generals, should be held accountable for missteps in the aftermath of the friendly fire death of Army Ranger Pat Tillman in Afghanistan."

This is as good a time as any to contemplate how and why Pat Tillman ended up in position to be killed by his fellow soldiers. Here's how the New York Times described Tillman at the time of his death:

"A graduate of Arizona State University, Tillman, a safety, played for four seasons with the Arizona Cardinals. But as an unrestricted free agent in 2002, he turned town a three-year, $3.6 million contract offer from the Cardinals and enlisted in the Army."

Accordingly, when Tillman was killed, the predictable platitudes followed:

* Defensive tackle Corey Sears of the Houston Texans, who played with Tillman on the Cardinals from 1999 to 2000, said: "All the guys that complain about it being too hot or they don't have enough money, that's not real life. A real life thing is he died for what he believed in."

I wonder if Sears views Iraqis dying for what they believe in to be "a real life thing" or is that reserved exclusively for Americans? If Tillman were still alive, I'd like to ask him what exactly it was that he "believed in" enough to die for. Was it, say, for-profit health care for the few or pre-emptive wars or corporate welfare or maybe the death penalty? How about strip malls, Reality TV, SUVs, or cell phones? Maybe the right to vote for the next American Idol? I'd just like some clarification.

* Former Cardinals head coach Dave McGinnis said Tillman who "represented all that was good in sports...proudly walked away from a career in football to a greater calling."

Definition of "greater calling": An ex-NFL player ruthlessly hunting CIA-created Taliban fighters in Afghanistan in a misguided, myopic attempt to avenge 9/11.

* "Pat Tillman personified all the best values of his country and the NFL," declared commissioner Paul Tagliabue.

What values, Mr. Tagliabue? The values outlined in our history texts or the values of militarism and greed this nation has lived by for over 200 years? (Did Tagliabue or Tillman ever read, say, Zinn's People's History or Blum's Killing Hope?) Can someone do me a favor and list the "best values" of both America and the NFL?

* "Where do we get such men as these? Where to we find these people willing to stand up for America?" asked Rep. J.D. Hayworth, R-Arizona.

Which America was Tillman standing up for-the bosses at Halliburton or the homeless guy I see every day on the subway steps? Do you know anyone who needed Tillman to "stand up" for them by bringing indiscriminate death and destruction upon Iraq and Afghanistan? Are we so numb to the clichés that we'll let them pass without comment or contemplation?

* More Rep. Hayworth: "He chose action rather than words. He just wanted to serve his country."

Again, what country was Tillman serving? The country personified by war criminals like Bush, Clinton, etc.? The country defined by corporate pirates? Indeed, Tillman wasn't serving the two million behind bars or the two million locked in nursing homes against their will. The action he chose over words didn't make our air or water cleaner or stop the suburban sprawl. Tillman could have chosen to serve his country by challenging the corporate-mandated status quo...but that's not how things work around here, is it?

* Even more from Hayworth: "He was a remarkable person. He lived the American dream, and he fought to preserve the American dream and our way of life."

What American dream? The dreams of Wal-Mart, Nike, and The Gap? Whose way of life-Wall Street speculators, professional athletes, and digitally- or surgically-enhanced celebrities? I certainly didn't ask him to kill anyone and he sure wasn't protecting anything I hold dear. Pat Tillman, to me, seemed like a pre-programmed American male...the spawn of decades of corporate conditioning and State-sponsored patriotism.

When Rich Tillman showed up at the San Jose Municipal Rose Garden memorial for his big brother Pat, he "wore a rumpled white T-shirt, no jacket, no tie, no collar," and "asked mourners to hold their spiritual bromides." He later stated: "Pat isn't with God. He's ****ing dead. He wasn't religious. So thank you for your thoughts, but he's ****ing dead.''

Pat Tillman walking away from millions to "fight for his country" does not impress me...but I am awed by the ability to manipulate humans into consistently acting against their interests and the interests of the entire planet.

"People often are conscripted into armies, but sometimes they enlist with gusto," explains Steven Pinker, director of the Center of Cognitive Neuroscience at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. "Jingoism," Pinker declares, "is alarmingly easy to evoke."

"War itself is venal, dirty, confusing and perhaps the most potent narcotic invented by humankind," says New York Times columnist Chris Hedges. "It allows us to suspend individual conscience, maybe even consciousness, for the cause. And few of us are immune... The contagion of war, of the siren call of the nation, is so strong that most cannot resist."

But resist we must...and unless we in America create new, powerful-and urgent-ways to resist, we cannot expect the victims of our indifference and ineptitude to not hold each of us accountable.

Ask yourself this: Who gave up a life of luxury and turned his back on millions to fight in the mountains and caves of Afghanistan for what he believed in and, as a result, is revered by millions as a "hero"?

Depending on who you are and where you live, you might answer "Pat Tillman" or you might answer: "Osama bin Laden."

The world doesn't need any more "heroes" like Tillman or Osama. One of the first things it needs is for the American people to snap out of their propaganda-induced fog ASAP and seek a "greater calling" in the truest sense.

Mickey Z. can be found on the Web at http://www.mickeyz.net.

[Garcia Bronco]

I moved this here because I would like everyone to get an opportunity to see the interesting topics mini-nuke brings to the table.

[TheDave]

cant wait to see where this goes...

[scorpio]

I moved this here because I would like everyone to get an opportunity to see the interesting topics mini-nuke brings to the table.

You're the only moderator I know who trolls his own board.

[Kaylore]

You're the only moderator I know who trolls his own board.

LOL

[atomicbloke]

I don't understand the logic of this article.

Sure, a few things in America suck. That's a consequence of all the good things in America due to a free world and free-market economy.

But how does that relate to Pat Tillman,s personal calling in life? He chose to do what he felt was his niche in life... without encroaching upon anyone else's... how does that make him bad?

[Kaylore]

I don't understand the logic of this article.

Sure, a few things in America suck. That's a consequence of all the good things in America due to a free world and free-market economy.

But how does that relate to Pat Tillman,s personal calling in life? He chose to do what he felt was his niche in life... without encroaching upon anyone else's... how does that make him bad?

It's a bunch of leftist barf where he's saying that since America is bad, and since Pat Tillman died fighting for something bad, Pat Tilman is bad. He basically uses Pat Tillman as an excuse to rip America. Same article we've all read a hundred times, but this one has a different opening. Yawn.

[sirhcyennek81]

He served in a warzone. He is a hero.

*Edit* Anyone serving in any branch of the US Armed forces is a hero, warzone or not. I find it amusing that he blames the US for the war in afghanistan...but I guess whatever works.


:Broncos:

[ak1971]

Hey gafney...have you grown your Hilter mustache yet? Seig Heil!

[Dagmar]

This is one of those "sit back and watch the board explode" threads that are always entertaining.

Let the FUN begin!!!

[lazarus4444]

Yes, the strip malls suck, the almost total devotion to reality tv sucks, cookie cutter suburbs suck. In Indonesia 3 christian school girls were decapitated by three muslim insurgents. Their heads were thrown in the middle of their village....That doesn't happen in America.

In Thailand Buhhdist teachers have to go to school in armed convoys because over 50 of them have been killed by Islamic extremists in the last 2 years. That doesn't happen in America....

In Pakistan, women who are raped always end up in jail for adultery. Why? Because if you are Islamic and you are female, you have to provide FOUR male witnesses to the rape. Some of these women are executed for their "adultery" as well. That doesn't happen in America.

Pat Tillman and all our soldiers are fighting so bull**** like that doesn't become common on our shores. It is about our personal freedoms. Sure, I can buy a house in a cookie cutter suburb but I don't have to because i have the freedom to choose.

I can smoke if i want, listen to music, buy jeans, cut my hair anyway i want to. A lot of muslims can't do that. So don't disgrace our veterans for fighting for our freedom because it goes farther than what is bad about America, they are fighting for what is good in America too....

[Kaylore]

This is one of those "sit back and watch the board explode" threads that are always entertaining.

Let the FUN begin!!!

I don't think it's that explosive. We've been hearing this diatribe from these guys for years. It's boring. I prefer looking at their hysterics and making fun of their unkempt hippie nature.

http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2006/03/18/protester.jpgesqfop.jpg

Note the armpit hair. Sexy, no? :~ohyah!:

[watermock]

Well I gave a detailed explaination what happened and it was immediately lost. I said two days ago some generals heads were going to roll.

The jist is the Rangers objected to splitting the convoy, and when the second came under attack towing a humvee, Tillman circled back. Evidently he didn't radio in, and he had an afgahn with thim to boot. Bad move. This was a very narrow canyon so it is problematic if they could just thrown a grenade under the hood.

Tillman made a fatal mistake in the fog of war not announcing he was taking a position on the opposite ridge.

[watermock]

http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2006/03/18/protester.jpgesqfop.jpg

Looks like one of the protesters in SF that are calling for the head of Pelosi, the most left wing congresswoman on capital hill.

I doubt the major media covered it...they burned effigy of a US soldier, the flag and had a banner yelling **** America and other crap.

They are vermin that have no problem eating their own. It's amusing honestly.

I'm almost positive that's the recent Frisco protest calling for Pelosi's head for funding our troops.

Notice the Arabic designed to encourage the enemy behind her. First it was a war to get the oil...now it's racism. Does anyone know that Kuwait charges more for oil than any other country?

[W*GS]

I see gaffney is in full-tilt hate-America-and-everything-that-it-is mode.

I knew the tumor inside him would come bursting out eventually...

[REB]

I don't think it's that explosive. We've been hearing this diatribe from these guys for years. It's boring. I prefer looking at their hysterics and making fun of their unkempt hippie nature.

http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2006/03/18/protester.jpgesqfop.jpg

Note the armpit hair. Sexy, no? :~ohyah!:


LOL

and the armpit hair..... ugh!~ :TJnPopps:

[Bladerunner]

It's a bunch of leftist barf where he's saying that since America is bad, and since Pat Tillman died fighting for something bad, Pat Tilman is bad. He basically uses Pat Tillman as an excuse to rip America. Same article we've all read a hundred times, but this one has a different opening. Yawn.

Yeah basically. He does make one good point though, in that the logic behind serving a higher philosophical calling applies equally to Tillman and Bin Laden. I have been amazed at the number of people that simply don't understand why 9/11 happened or that claim "they hate us for our freedom." For all their horrible actions, and they are severe enough to be hunted down, tried, sentenced, and perhaps executed, the perpetrators of 9/11 had and have a rationale. The U.S. was targeted for many years for their presence and foreign policy in the Middle East. Of course the U.S. was perfectly justified in conducting such policy, but there are consequences to all choices and Al Queda's actions certainly stemmed from their interpretation of U.S. foreign policy (i.e. perceived hegemony).

It sounds like the author's issue is far more with corporatism and the many bad artifacts of a capitalistic society. It's unfortunate that he chose to invoke the name of a slain soldier to exclaim his view. Pat Tillman's name has been misused and profiteered from quite frequently lately, it certainly didn't need another round from the other side of the political spectrum.

[watermock]

That's a complete line of crap.

[Kaylore]

Yeah basically. He does make one good point though, in that the logic behind serving a higher philosophical calling applies equally to Tillman and Bin Laden. I have been amazed at the number of people that simply don't understand why 9/11 happened or that claim "they hate us for our freedom." For all their horrible actions, and they are severe enough to be hunted down, tried, sentenced, and perhaps executed, the perpetrators of 9/11 had and have a rationale. The U.S. was targeted for many years for their presence and foreign policy in the Middle East. Of course the U.S. was perfectly justified in conducting such policy, but there are consequences to all choices and Al Queda's actions certainly stemmed from their interpretation of U.S. foreign policy (i.e. perceived hegemony).

It sounds like the author's issue is far more with corporatism and the many bad artifacts of a capitalistic society. It's unfortunate that he chose to invoke the name of a slain soldier to exclaim his view. Pat Tillman's name has been misused and profiteered from quite frequently lately, it certainly didn't need another round from the other side of the political spectrum.
Well, I don't read this guy a lot but I'd guess he does this with everything that has any prayer of being connected politically. I'd imagine Thanksgiving with this guy is a joke.

"Would you like gravy on your potatoes?"

"You mean that corporate slime that you bought at a mega-mart that is destroying small towns and ruining the jobs of middle-America?"

"Just answer yes or no, Mickey."

"I won't let you reduce me to your totalitarian platitudes! My answer is 16! And you must now conform your question to my answer for once! You like that?!? Not so easy to hold me down now with your suspiciously brown gravy on offensively white potatoes...."

"Dude, why do you have be such an ass all the..."

"I won't do this! I don't need to sanction this totalitarian holiday designed to worship the oppression and mass murder of millions of the natives on this continent! And don't think I don't know that these orange slices weren't grown on burned down rain forest land!"

"Would you please leave?"

"Batho Pele! Batho Pele! Rise up! Rise up!"

[lazarus4444]

Well, I don't read this guy a lot but I'd guess he does this with everything that has any prayer of being connected politically. I'd imagine Thanksgiving with this guy is a joke.

"Would you like gravy on your potatoes?"

"You mean that corporate slime that you bought at a mega-mart that is destroying small towns and ruining the jobs of middle-America?"

"Just answer yes or no, Mickey."

"I won't let you reduce me to your totalitarian platitudes! My answer is 16! And you must now conform your question to my answer for once! You like that?!? Not so easy to hold me down now with your suspiciously brown gravy on offensively white potatoes...."

"Dude, why do you have be such an ass all the..."

"I won't do this! I don't need to sanction this totalitarian holiday designed to worship the oppression and mass murder of millions of the natives on this continent! And don't think I don't know that these orange slices weren't grown on burned down rain forest land!"

"Would you please leave?"

"Batho Pele! Batho Pele! Rise up! Rise up!"

Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious!

Nice one! ROFL!

[TexanBob]

It takes quite a man to piss on a hero's grave. A man who I'd rather not ever meet because then I'd have to flatten him.

[REB]

Well, I don't read this guy a lot but I'd guess he does this with everything that has any prayer of being connected politically. I'd imagine Thanksgiving with this guy is a joke.

"Would you like gravy on your potatoes?"

"You mean that corporate slime that you bought at a mega-mart that is destroying small towns and ruining the jobs of middle-America?"

"Just answer yes or no, Mickey."

"I won't let you reduce me to your totalitarian platitudes! My answer is 16! And you must now conform your question to my answer for once! You like that?!? Not so easy to hold me down now with your suspiciously brown gravy on offensively white potatoes...."

"Dude, why do you have be such an ass all the..."

"I won't do this! I don't need to sanction this totalitarian holiday designed to worship the oppression and mass murder of millions of the natives on this continent! And don't think I don't know that these orange slices weren't grown on burned down rain forest land!"

"Would you please leave?"

"Batho Pele! Batho Pele! Rise up! Rise up!"

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :thumbs:

[RkyMtnThunder]

Personally, I dont support the war and lean to the left on most social issues. However I think this article is a bit much.

Sure, there are some ugly sides to our society, but all in all - I would rather deal with reality TV than what other posters touched base on in this thread about life in other countries.

There is a lot of ugly in this world - but even taking the worst self indulgant stereotype of American society - its still much better than dealing with living conditions in most other countries.

The issue I have with the whole Pat Tillman deal is that I felt Tillman's memory was dishonored by lying about the facts of the matter. They blew his death up into something it wasnt just to use his name. And then when the truth started coming out - there were people who tried to fight against it so they could continue with the hero worship

So when I see how Tillman is constantly honored for his sacrifice - its almost a mockery because I dont see other (non famous) friendly fire victims being honored like that - as if they meant any less or their fate any less tragic or they themselves any less 'heroic'?

Tillman's legacy and name seems to have become a pro-war propaganda machine, glorifying his accidental death - and I seriously doubt he would have appreciated that.

[watermock]

Getting the record straight has nothing about Tillman not going above and beyond his duty to circle back and try to cover the second convoy.

Again, the mistake was made when the second convoy was in the middle of an ambush and saw fire on a second ridge.

[Malcontent]

This is one of those "sit back and watch the board explode" threads that are always entertaining.

Let the FUN begin!!!

Nope..it doesn't deserve that Dagmar..Just bleedin' bury this thread in honour of PT!

[Rock Chalk]

View Post Today, 09:04 PM
Remove user from ignore list mhgaffney
This message is hidden because mhgaffney is on your ignore list.


Its good to be me.

[STBumpkin]

Well, I don't read this guy a lot but I'd guess he does this with everything that has any prayer of being connected politically. I'd imagine Thanksgiving with this guy is a joke.

"Would you like gravy on your potatoes?"

"You mean that corporate slime that you bought at a mega-mart that is destroying small towns and ruining the jobs of middle-America?"

"Just answer yes or no, Mickey."

"I won't let you reduce me to your totalitarian platitudes! My answer is 16! And you must now conform your question to my answer for once! You like that?!? Not so easy to hold me down now with your suspiciously brown gravy on offensively white potatoes...."

"Dude, why do you have be such an ass all the..."

"I won't do this! I don't need to sanction this totalitarian holiday designed to worship the oppression and mass murder of millions of the natives on this continent! And don't think I don't know that these orange slices weren't grown on burned down rain forest land!"

"Would you please leave?"

"Batho Pele! Batho Pele! Rise up! Rise up!"

SIMPLY AWESOME!!!!

[Tombstone RJ]

This hits the proverbial nail -- and draws the correct conclusion. No doubt, the author will incite another bushel of hate mail.

MHG

March 26, 2007
http://www.counterpunch.org/mickey03262007.html

The Myth of the Hero

Pat Tillman: Beyond the Hype

By MICKEY Z.

The American football hero may be gone but details of his mysterious death in Afghanistan just won't go away. Most recently, as reported by Time Magazine, "Nine officers, including up to four generals, should be held accountable for missteps in the aftermath of the friendly fire death of Army Ranger Pat Tillman in Afghanistan."

This is as good a time as any to contemplate how and why Pat Tillman ended up in position to be killed by his fellow soldiers. Here's how the New York Times described Tillman at the time of his death:

"A graduate of Arizona State University, Tillman, a safety, played for four seasons with the Arizona Cardinals. But as an unrestricted free agent in 2002, he turned town a three-year, $3.6 million contract offer from the Cardinals and enlisted in the Army."

Accordingly, when Tillman was killed, the predictable platitudes followed:

* Defensive tackle Corey Sears of the Houston Texans, who played with Tillman on the Cardinals from 1999 to 2000, said: "All the guys that complain about it being too hot or they don't have enough money, that's not real life. A real life thing is he died for what he believed in."

I wonder if Sears views Iraqis dying for what they believe in to be "a real life thing" or is that reserved exclusively for Americans? If Tillman were still alive, I'd like to ask him what exactly it was that he "believed in" enough to die for. Was it, say, for-profit health care for the few or pre-emptive wars or corporate welfare or maybe the death penalty? How about strip malls, Reality TV, SUVs, or cell phones? Maybe the right to vote for the next American Idol? I'd just like some clarification.

* Former Cardinals head coach Dave McGinnis said Tillman who "represented all that was good in sports...proudly walked away from a career in football to a greater calling."

Definition of "greater calling": An ex-NFL player ruthlessly hunting CIA-created Taliban fighters in Afghanistan in a misguided, myopic attempt to avenge 9/11.

* "Pat Tillman personified all the best values of his country and the NFL," declared commissioner Paul Tagliabue.

What values, Mr. Tagliabue? The values outlined in our history texts or the values of militarism and greed this nation has lived by for over 200 years? (Did Tagliabue or Tillman ever read, say, Zinn's People's History or Blum's Killing Hope?) Can someone do me a favor and list the "best values" of both America and the NFL?

* "Where do we get such men as these? Where to we find these people willing to stand up for America?" asked Rep. J.D. Hayworth, R-Arizona.

Which America was Tillman standing up for-the bosses at Halliburton or the homeless guy I see every day on the subway steps? Do you know anyone who needed Tillman to "stand up" for them by bringing indiscriminate death and destruction upon Iraq and Afghanistan? Are we so numb to the clichés that we'll let them pass without comment or contemplation?

* More Rep. Hayworth: "He chose action rather than words. He just wanted to serve his country."

Again, what country was Tillman serving? The country personified by war criminals like Bush, Clinton, etc.? The country defined by corporate pirates? Indeed, Tillman wasn't serving the two million behind bars or the two million locked in nursing homes against their will. The action he chose over words didn't make our air or water cleaner or stop the suburban sprawl. Tillman could have chosen to serve his country by challenging the corporate-mandated status quo...but that's not how things work around here, is it?

* Even more from Hayworth: "He was a remarkable person. He lived the American dream, and he fought to preserve the American dream and our way of life."

What American dream? The dreams of Wal-Mart, Nike, and The Gap? Whose way of life-Wall Street speculators, professional athletes, and digitally- or surgically-enhanced celebrities? I certainly didn't ask him to kill anyone and he sure wasn't protecting anything I hold dear. Pat Tillman, to me, seemed like a pre-programmed American male...the spawn of decades of corporate conditioning and State-sponsored patriotism.

When Rich Tillman showed up at the San Jose Municipal Rose Garden memorial for his big brother Pat, he "wore a rumpled white T-shirt, no jacket, no tie, no collar," and "asked mourners to hold their spiritual bromides." He later stated: "Pat isn't with God. He's ****ing dead. He wasn't religious. So thank you for your thoughts, but he's ****ing dead.''

Pat Tillman walking away from millions to "fight for his country" does not impress me...but I am awed by the ability to manipulate humans into consistently acting against their interests and the interests of the entire planet.

"People often are conscripted into armies, but sometimes they enlist with gusto," explains Steven Pinker, director of the Center of Cognitive Neuroscience at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. "Jingoism," Pinker declares, "is alarmingly easy to evoke."

"War itself is venal, dirty, confusing and perhaps the most potent narcotic invented by humankind," says New York Times columnist Chris Hedges. "It allows us to suspend individual conscience, maybe even consciousness, for the cause. And few of us are immune... The contagion of war, of the siren call of the nation, is so strong that most cannot resist."

But resist we must...and unless we in America create new, powerful-and urgent-ways to resist, we cannot expect the victims of our indifference and ineptitude to not hold each of us accountable.

Ask yourself this: Who gave up a life of luxury and turned his back on millions to fight in the mountains and caves of Afghanistan for what he believed in and, as a result, is revered by millions as a "hero"?

Depending on who you are and where you live, you might answer "Pat Tillman" or you might answer: "Osama bin Laden."

The world doesn't need any more "heroes" like Tillman or Osama. One of the first things it needs is for the American people to snap out of their propaganda-induced fog ASAP and seek a "greater calling" in the truest sense.

Mickey Z. can be found on the Web at http://www.mickeyz.net.


This whole article doesn't make any sense and it seems to contradict itself in many places. Just what is this guy so mad about again?

[loborugger]

Where is Gaff to defend this swill?

Dude served his country. Dude wasnt excited about Iraq, and thought it was a sham. Yet he still served. Dude gave up a small fortune to serve his country for peanuts. Dude refused to use his position as a soap box for his personal views, asking only to be left alone like almost every other enlisted soldier is. He was intelligent, articulate, honorable and tough as nails.

We could use a TON more Americans like Pat.

The fact that he was killed by friendly fire does nothing to diminish the stature of the man or what he did. What is going on in America around him doesnt diminish what Pat stood for.

I wont bother addressing the half-wit (sorry to steal your line, Mock, but it fits) who wrote this, but if I did, I would say one thing. Envy is a bitch, my friend. You dont want to admit but you measured your manhood to his and you came up woefully short so your natural reaction was to attack him. You are a small, petty person and everyone now knows it.

[sirhcyennek81]

This whole article doesn't make any sense and it seems to contradict itself in many places. Just what is this guy so mad about again?


Probably that communism has failed and that liberal democracy is the predominant governmental form in the developed world. Or that the nature of man is such that war becomes a necesary exercise...or...his mom took away his popgun when he was 4 and told him it was evil, therefore setting him on the path of pussification. I vote for the last one.

:Broncos:

[NDBRONCO]

MHGAFFNEY,
Your post is a bunch of crap!!
I'm a Nam War Marine vet and was fortunate to come home,
my Dad was a Korean War but wasn't as fortunate.
If Pat was still alive you would want to ask just what is worth dying for??!!
Well Sh*t for brains! The answer is the United States of America....
I fought for your fredom you little wimp and was happy to do it!
Heroes are what they are!
You make me sick!

ndcowboy

[Bronco Bob]

It's a bunch of leftist barf where he's saying that since America is bad, and since Pat Tillman died fighting for something bad, Pat Tilman is bad. He basically uses Pat Tillman as an excuse to rip America. Same article we've all read a hundred times, but this one has a different opening. Yawn.

Don't blame the leftists for mhgaffney's lunacy. He is an ideology all unto himself.

[phisig150]

Didn't really get what the point of the article was but Pat is a hero in my book regardless of what you think of the war. He's a public symbol of all the sacrifices all our boys and girls make over there (and in countless other countries). Pat and the people he represents make me damn pro to be an American no matter how the pinko leftist extreme in this country want to spin things.

[TheDave]

It's a bunch of leftist barf where he's saying that since America is bad, and since Pat Tillman died fighting for something bad, Pat Tilman is bad. He basically uses Pat Tillman as an excuse to rip America. Same article we've all read a hundred times, but this one has a different opening. Yawn.

Easy there killer... Though i'm sure my beliefs are to the left of yours, they are WAY the hell to the right of Capt. Mini-Nukes. This is leftist crap, this is just an a$$hole with a keyboard

[Bronco Bob]

Where is Gaff to defend this swill?

Dude served his country. Dude wasnt excited about Iraq, and thought it was a sham. Yet he still served. Dude gave up a small fortune to serve his country for peanuts. Dude refused to use his position as a soap box for his personal views, asking only to be left alone like almost every other enlisted soldier is. He was intelligent, articulate, honorable and tough as nails.



Dude was in Afghanistan, where we should be fighting, not in Iraq, where
we shouldn't be, because our war is with al-Quada, not the Iraqi people
who are fighting a civil war.

[mhgaffney]

To Kaylore and others: You do no credit to your cause to claim that opposition to this horrible war is limited to those dirty clones and hippies in San Francisco. A bunch of useless rabble rousers etc.

The polls show otherwise: approximately 70% of Americans now oppose Bush and his dirty war. A recent poll of US troops in Iraq shows that opposition to the war is even stronger among the GIs who are on the ground. 72% of them believe it is wrong and want it ended.

It's easy for you clowns and knee jerks on this board to wave the flag and be super patriots -- as long as someone else's son or daughter is doing the dying.

Here's the truth. I don't impugn Pat Tillman in any way. He was probably doing what he believed was right. But so are the Iraqis who are fighting us.

The point of the above article is that Tillman, like all of the other dead US troops, threw their lives away for nothing.

Or maybe you think that invading a nation that never attacked us or threatened us --- so we can steal their oil -- is a noble cause. If you think that, shame on you.

US Enduring Freedom has now lasted longer than WW II, with no end in sight. As we speak the neo cons are preparing war upon Iran.

If Iraq didn't get your undivided attention -- I promise you -- the next round will. Unless we can someone prevent it.

That's my point.

[phisig150]

Dude was in Afghanistan, where we should be fighting, not in Iraq, where
we shouldn't be, because our war is with al-Quada, not the Iraqi people
who are fighting a civil war.

Hate the war not the warrior (and the faulty intelligence reports our administration was working off). Who was one the key people who stripped our intelligence agencies? I believe your boy Bubba might have something to do with that ( plus the fact that back in the day he had Osama's head on a platter but didn't want to get his hands dirty). Whatever, support the troops no matter what, bash the policticos.

[TDmvp]

to those who are sick of america ... Please feel free to exit stage north to canada ... thank you drive thru ...

[phisig150]

To Kaylore and others: You do no credit to your cause to claim that opposition to this horrible war is limited to those dirty clones and hippies in San Francisco. A bunch of useless rabble rousers etc.

The polls show otherwise: approximately 70% of Americans now oppose Bush and his dirty war. A recent poll of US troops in Iraq shows that opposition to the war is even stronger among the GIs who are on the ground. 72% of them believe it is wrong and want it ended.

It's easy for you clowns and knee jerks on this board to wave the flag and be super patriots -- as long as someone else's son or daughter is doing the dying.

Here's the truth. I don't impugn Pat Tillman in any way. He was probably doing what he believed was right. But so are the Iraqis who are fighting us.

The point of the above article is that Tillman, like all of the other dead US troops, threw their lives away for nothing.

Or maybe you think that invading a nation that never attacked us or threatened us --- so we can steal their oil -- is a noble cause. If you think that, shame on you.

US Enduring Freedom has now lasted longer than WW II, with no end in sight. As we speak the neo cons are preparing war upon Iran.

If Iraq didn't get your undivided attention -- I promise you -- the next round will. Unless we can someone prevent it.

That's my point.

Would this be the same war that Hillary and Kerry supported? I'm a registered Libertarian and really have no time for either side but am more right leaning. Rudy and Obama are both intriguing canidates though. Time to get over Bush, blah, blah, Worse than Hitler blah, blah, war criminal, yadda yadda. He's gone in '08 then the Dems might actually have to stand for something instead of against ( when it's convieant) against everything. You better pray Obama is your canidate or you boys are ****ed.

[Garcia Bronco]

To Kaylore and others: You do no credit to your cause to claim that opposition to this horrible war is limited to those dirty clones and hippies in San Francisco. A bunch of useless rabble rousers etc.

Wow...an elitest anti-semite super hippie.

[phisig150]

Wow...an elitest anti-semite super hippie.

The only good hippie is a dead hippie!

[phisig150]

Wow...an elitest anti-semite super hippie.

I believe he said Rabble rousers not Rabbi rousers, So I don't get the anti-semitic references but I'll agree with you none the less.

[Willynowei]

A secret society called the Hairianuses are actually the cause for the iraq war. In fact, they invented globalization, weaving an asphyxiating web of debt and economic dependency of sovereign states upon Transantional financial institutions. They are the reason we are in Iraq people, WAKE UP. It is the doing of the Hairianusses, who seek to create the illusion that the US is punishing states for foolish defiance of the petro dollar while they slaugther innocent families! The news is littered with clues, OPEN YOUR EYES, who does this war really benefit? not the US! The Hairianusses!

As we, the deceived and ignorant public hear the fabricated tales of our compromised media, this secret power hungry group has taken over our country. They control the petro dollar, they incite world conflict and benefit from the illegal arms trade while millions of innocents die. They're the reason our country is in so much debt, over spending on defense, defense? HA! Look at our foreign policies! They are imperialistic! All so that we may be ruined!

The Hairianuses will stop at nothing until the ruin of the America! Don't yous SEEEEE? They are creating the impression that the US will stop at nothing untill they become the authoritative hegemon of the world!!! Meanwhile they finish laying out their final peice of the puzzel, the European Union, which is blatant destruction of statehood! European citizens protest to no avail of the weaking of the legislative power their elected officials hold. The small, wealthy, elitist group will eventually use the aggressive nature of the US, driven by their two spies - BUSH AND CHENEY to create a challenging alliance against NATO AND THE UN! Its already happening! Look at France and GermanY!!! They want to subject earth to their authoritative rule, and they will stop at nothing. Once such feat is accomplished, they will set out for their ultimate task to build a BIG HAIRY ANUS!

you can ignore my incoherent drivel, but I will continually repost it until you're all convinced the political atmosphere in todays world clearly points to the final end game of the BIG HAIR ANUS.

[scorpio]

I believe he said Rabble rousers not Rabbi rousers, So I don't get the anti-semitic references but I'll agree with you none the less.

Gaffney thinks America's friendship with the JOOZE is the cause of all ills in the world.

[Kaylore]

Can we move this thread yet?

[alkemical]

no, our punishment is not yet served.

[Arkie]

We can all agree on one thing. We live in the best country. Anybody who denies this is just trying to be a cool progressive. We all want the same thing--to preserve this country's greatness. We just have different means to the same end. Personally, I think we are all screwed. Humanity has run it's cycle. We are all fighting on this crowded ball.

[Garcia Bronco]

We can all agree on one thing. We live in the best country. Anybody who denies this is just trying to be a cool progressive. We all want the same thing--to preserve this country's greatness. We just have different means to the same end. Personally, I think we are all screwed. Humanity has run it's cycle. We are all fighting on this crowded ball.


Every generation feels like we're on the edge of destruction. It's just not true.

[alpine]

We can all agree on one thing. We live in the best country.
Really? Lots of people on this board outside the US who love their countries (or adopted countries) just as much as you love yours.

[Dutch]

The polls show otherwise: approximately 70% of Americans now oppose Bush and his dirty war. A recent poll of US troops in Iraq shows that opposition to the war is even stronger among the GIs who are on the ground. 72% of them believe it is wrong and want it ended.

OK Gaff (how appropriate is that?),
Show me the links to those Polls. I want to know who took them, when, and where. You appear to have inflated those numbers by quite a bit. I won't speak to the "70% of Americans" comment, but I will address the "72% of GIs on the ground" portion. BS. Plain and simple. Maybe among reservists who were looking for the GI Bill and a job skill that never banked on a war, but most definitely not among active duty ground elements. Re-enlistments are up, and most of the guys I KNOW in-country voice more frustration over the same old garbage that we in the field always have...being away from home, missing The World, upper eschelon pukes having their heads up their collective posteriors and not listening to the grunts in the field, etc. Same old same old. As for the mission (establishing a democratic government), frustrated at the lack of progress...of course. Ready to get the F out tomorrow and watch it all come crumbling down.... F no.

The point of the above article is that Tillman, like all of the other dead US troops, threw their lives away for nothing.

The real point that matters is that good men and women of our armed forces have been accused of "throwing our lives away for nothing" by pacifist, isolationist, elitist psudo-intellectuals like you and your bed wetting buddy Mickey Z since the inception of this country. The good news for you is that honorable men and women in this country will continue to do so. That way you can continue to live in your perfect little America hating world.

If Iraq didn't get your undivided attention -- I promise you -- the next round will. Unless we can someone prevent it.


I prefer: If 9/11 didn't get your undivided attention--I promise you--an Iranian terror state controlling Nukes and Iraqi oil will. Unless we can somehow PREVENT it.

Semper Fi,
Dutch

[broncocalijohn]

http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2006/03/18/protester.jpgesqfop.jpg

Looks like one of the protesters in SF that are calling for the head of Pelosi, the most left wing congresswoman on capital hill.

I doubt the major media covered it...they burned effigy of a US soldier, the flag and had a banner yelling **** America and other crap.

They are vermin that have no problem eating their own. It's amusing honestly.

I'm almost positive that's the recent Frisco protest calling for Pelosi's head for funding our troops.

Notice the Arabic designed to encourage the enemy behind her. First it was a war to get the oil...now it's racism. Does anyone know that Kuwait charges more for oil than any other country?

Garcia, put it back to War Topic board. No one needs to know what and who the hell is McGaffney aka Mini Nukes. He is so anti Jew and anti America that it is sickening. His comments are horrible and are unjust. Calling Tillman Greedy as he walked away from a glorious job making bank and doing what he loved. McGaffney is a loser and I just hope he isnt a Broncos fan but another conspiracy theorist. He needs major help.
Mock, I think the burning of the soldier was shown on Fox News and/or Glenn Beck. It happened in Portland not SF. Penn would love this woman.

[NDBRONCO]

Amen, Dutch!!
Great Post!!

ndbronco
Nam Vet

[baja]

Every generation feels like we're on the edge of destruction. It's just not true.

Unfortunately this time it may well be.

[mosca]

Dude was in Afghanistan, where we should be fighting, not in Iraq, where
we shouldn't be, because our war is with al-Quada, not the Iraqi people
who are fighting a civil war.
Tillman served a tour in Iraq during the initial 2003 invasion, before being deployed to Afghanistan in 2004. Reportedly, he also privately expressed criticism of the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

[REB]

The polls show otherwise: approximately 70% of Americans now oppose Bush and his dirty war. A recent poll of US troops in Iraq shows that opposition to the war is even stronger among the GIs who are on the ground. 72% of them believe it is wrong and want it ended.

OK Gaff (how appropriate is that?),
Show me the links to those Polls. I want to know who took them, when, and where. You appear to have inflated those numbers by quite a bit. I won't speak to the "70% of Americans" comment, but I will address the "72% of GIs on the ground" portion. BS. Plain and simple. Maybe among reservists who were looking for the GI Bill and a job skill that never banked on a war, but most definitely not among active duty ground elements. Re-enlistments are up, and most of the guys I KNOW in-country voice more frustration over the same old garbage that we in the field always have...being away from home, missing The World, upper eschelon pukes having their heads up their collective posteriors and not listening to the grunts in the field, etc. Same old same old. As for the mission (establishing a democratic government), frustrated at the lack of progress...of course. Ready to get the F out tomorrow and watch it all come crumbling down.... F no.

The point of the above article is that Tillman, like all of the other dead US troops, threw their lives away for nothing.

The real point that matters is that good men and women of our armed forces have been accused of "throwing our lives away for nothing" by pacifist, isolationist, elitist psudo-intellectuals like you and your bed wetting buddy Mickey Z since the inception of this country. The good news for you is that honorable men and women in this country will continue to do so. That way you can continue to live in your perfect little America hating world.

If Iraq didn't get your undivided attention -- I promise you -- the next round will. Unless we can someone prevent it.


I prefer: If 9/11 didn't get your undivided attention--I promise you--an Iranian terror state controlling Nukes and Iraqi oil will. Unless we can somehow PREVENT it.

Semper Fi,
Dutch

Amen Dutch and Thanx! :thumbs:

[alkemical]

Every generation feels like we're on the edge of destruction. It's just not true.

And so it also seems that every generation is a xerox of a xerox. If humans don't evolve past the level we are at, we will kill ourselves off one way or another.

[alkemical]

I don't think it's that explosive. We've been hearing this diatribe from these guys for years. It's boring. I prefer looking at their hysterics and making fun of their unkempt hippie nature.

http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2006/03/18/protester.jpgesqfop.jpg

Note the armpit hair. Sexy, no? :~ohyah!:

As far as hippie chicks go, i've done worse.... lol

[Bronco_Beerslug]

[B]
I prefer: If 9/11 didn't get your undivided attention--I promise you--an Iranian terror state controlling Nukes and Iraqi oil will. Unless we can somehow PREVENT it.
Semper Fi,
Dutch
That's the ticket!! Attack and invade the pricks and take their oil, we deserve it!!

[mhgaffney]

The polls show otherwise: approximately 70% of Americans now oppose Bush and his dirty war. A recent poll of US troops in Iraq shows that opposition to the war is even stronger among the GIs who are on the ground. 72% of them believe it is wrong and want it ended.

OK Gaff (how appropriate is that?),
Show me the links to those Polls. I want to know who took them, when, and where. You appear to have inflated those numbers by quite a bit. I won't speak to the "70% of Americans" comment, but I will address the "72% of GIs on the ground" portion. BS. Plain and simple. Maybe among reservists who were looking for the GI Bill and a job skill that never banked on a war, but most definitely not among active duty ground elements. Re-enlistments are up, and most of the guys I KNOW in-country voice more frustration over the same old garbage that we in the field always have...being away from home, missing The World, upper eschelon pukes having their heads up their collective posteriors and not listening to the grunts in the field, etc. Same old same old. As for the mission (establishing a democratic government), frustrated at the lack of progress...of course. Ready to get the F out tomorrow and watch it all come crumbling down.... F no.

The point of the above article is that Tillman, like all of the other dead US troops, threw their lives away for nothing.

The real point that matters is that good men and women of our armed forces have been accused of "throwing our lives away for nothing" by pacifist, isolationist, elitist psudo-intellectuals like you and your bed wetting buddy Mickey Z since the inception of this country. The good news for you is that honorable men and women in this country will continue to do so. That way you can continue to live in your perfect little America hating world.

If Iraq didn't get your undivided attention -- I promise you -- the next round will. Unless we can someone prevent it.


I prefer: If 9/11 didn't get your undivided attention--I promise you--an Iranian terror state controlling Nukes and Iraqi oil will. Unless we can somehow PREVENT it.

Semper Fi,
Dutch

Here's the bottom line, Dutch. Bush's war is immoral. It was never about defending America. It was never about stopping terrorism. It was aggression, pure and simple, a war for oil and global domination. This is why Pat Tillman's life, and the lives of 3,000+ other brave soldiers, were thrown away.

The men who organized this war and sent our young people to die for oil and the new world order are guilty of war crimes. Bush and the others around him are criminals -- and they must be brought to justice.

America is a Christian nation, but the truth is we are Christian in name only. This war is in breach of the fundamental moral code by which we supposedly live:

1. Thou shalt not kill
2. Thou shalt not steal (thy neighbor's oil)
3. Thou shalt not covet (thy neighbor's oil)
4. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor (in order to steal his oil)

I would also add a fifth broken commandment -- probably the most important: Thou shalt not worship false gods (i.e., militarism, materialism, and the almighty US dollar)

Today our nation has descended into a swamp of corruption and evil. I am no Democrap -- and certainly no Repuklican. I am a libertarian and stand with Thomas Jefferson and George Washington, who warned this nation about the dangers of a standing army. Both warned that a permanent military would undermine and ultimately destroy democracy. This is now being played out. The founding fathers were correct.

A war against Iran will complete the destruction of our republic.

[ak1971]

[QUOTE=mhgaffney;1528079]

. I am a libertarian


come on youre a jew hating anti American, who whold love to see this country fail. Do you even know who the Broncos are?

[sirhcyennek81]

To Kaylore and others: You do no credit to your cause to claim that opposition to this horrible war is limited to those dirty clones and hippies in San Francisco. A bunch of useless rabble rousers etc.

The polls show otherwise: approximately 70% of Americans now oppose Bush and his dirty war. A recent poll of US troops in Iraq shows that opposition to the war is even stronger among the GIs who are on the ground. 72% of them believe it is wrong and want it ended.

It's easy for you clowns and knee jerks on this board to wave the flag and be super patriots -- as long as someone else's son or daughter is doing the dying.

Here's the truth. I don't impugn Pat Tillman in any way. He was probably doing what he believed was right. But so are the Iraqis who are fighting us.

The point of the above article is that Tillman, like all of the other dead US troops, threw their lives away for nothing.

Or maybe you think that invading a nation that never attacked us or threatened us --- so we can steal their oil -- is a noble cause. If you think that, shame on you.

US Enduring Freedom has now lasted longer than WW II, with no end in sight. As we speak the neo cons are preparing war upon Iran.
If Iraq didn't get your undivided attention -- I promise you -- the next round will. Unless we can someone prevent it.

That's my point.


Few things. I have seen oil and gas prices skyrocket. So much for the "theft" of Iraqi oil. The conflicts that became WWII started in 1933 in China. I realize you may or may not have a difficult time with this, but simply leaving Iraq will not make the jihadists stop. Course, you probably think 9/11 was an inside job, so logic and reason are probably foriegn concepts to you.

:Broncos:

[rugbythug]

There is ten minutes I will never get back. Thanks a lot Garcia

[Garcia Bronco]

Unfortunately this time it may well be.

Nah...we'll be fine

[Garcia Bronco]

And so it also seems that every generation is a xerox of a xerox. If humans don't evolve past the level we are at, we will kill ourselves off one way or another.

Humans constantly evolve.

[sirhcyennek81]

Here's the bottom line, Dutch. Bush's war is immoral. It was never about defending America. It was never about stopping terrorism. It was aggression, pure and simple, a war for oil and global domination. This is why Pat Tillman's life, and the lives of 3,000+ other brave soldiers, were thrown away.

The men who organized this war and sent our young people to die for oil and the new world order are guilty of war crimes. Bush and the others around him are criminals -- and they must be brought to justice.

America is a Christian nation, but the truth is we are Christian in name only. This war is in breach of the fundamental moral code by which we supposedly live:

1. Thou shalt not kill
2. Thou shalt not steal (thy neighbor's oil)
3. Thou shalt not covet (thy neighbor's oil)
4. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor (in order to steal his oil)
I would also add a fifth broken commandment -- probably the most important: Thou shalt not worship false gods (i.e., militarism, materialism, and the almighty US dollar)

Today our nation has descended into a swamp of corruption and evil. I am no Democrap -- and certainly no Repuklican. I am a libertarian and stand with Thomas Jefferson and George Washington, who warned this nation about the dangers of a standing army. Both warned that a permanent military would undermine and ultimately destroy democracy. This is now being played out. The founding fathers were correct.

A war against Iran will complete the destruction of our republic.


More imported oil comes from Canada and Mexcio then the middle east. You would think invading mexico would have been a cheaper exercise. Considering you feel Bush is capable of anything, invading Mexico would not be a stretch for him. Also, its thou shalt not murder. It also says thou shalt have no other gods before me...clearly you have made yourself one...

Washington never warned against a standing military. He was a GENERAL in the WAR for independence. Jefferson also spent 1/3 of American GDP creating a Navy to combat the Barbary Pirates, you know, the muslims who kidnapped american sailors and ransomed them for gold... As for a war with Iran, it seems Iran's own actions are creating a conflict only war will fix. Kidnapping British sailors in international waters is an act of aggression against international law. But spin how its really Cheney's fault, and the government of Iran is peaceable, and only wants civilian nuclear technology...


:Broncos:

[defenseman]

I don't understand the logic of this article.

Sure, a few things in America suck. That's a consequence of all the good things in America due to a free world and free-market economy.

But how does that relate to Pat Tillman,s personal calling in life? He chose to do what he felt was his niche in life... without encroaching upon anyone else's... how does that make him bad?

It doesn't. It's guys like mini-nuke who are making him a bad person for making the decision to serve his country. Well everyone needs something to bitch about, I guess Tillman is mininukes. I think mininuke should venture abroad, then he'll find plenty to bitch about, except, no one listens and he may be summarily drawn and quartered for his incessant whining. Waste of time= mininuke...dman

[defenseman]

Here's the bottom line, Dutch. Bush's war is immoral. It was never about defending America. It was never about stopping terrorism. It was aggression, pure and simple, a war for oil and global domination. This is why Pat Tillman's life, and the lives of 3,000+ other brave soldiers, were thrown away.

The men who organized this war and sent our young people to die for oil and the new world order are guilty of war crimes. Bush and the others around him are criminals -- and they must be brought to justice.

America is a Christian nation, but the truth is we are Christian in name only. This war is in breach of the fundamental moral code by which we supposedly live:

1. Thou shalt not kill
2. Thou shalt not steal (thy neighbor's oil)
3. Thou shalt not covet (thy neighbor's oil)
4. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor (in order to steal his oil)

I would also add a fifth broken commandment -- probably the most important: Thou shalt not worship false gods (i.e., militarism, materialism, and the almighty US dollar)

Today our nation has descended into a swamp of corruption and evil. I am no Democrap -- and certainly no Repuklican. I am a libertarian and stand with Thomas Jefferson and George Washington, who warned this nation about the dangers of a standing army. Both warned that a permanent military would undermine and ultimately destroy democracy. This is now being played out. The founding fathers were correct.

A war against Iran will complete the destruction of our republic.

Quit your incessant whining and do something to fix it then there mini-nuke. Your ranting and raving is a freaking waste of time, and tries many's patience. then again, I'm done with ya, you quite simply are not worth the time..dman

[watermock]

I learned a dirty little secret about Halbitron the other day. After Gulf 1, there were 750 wells burning out of control. It was estimated that it would take up to a decade to extingush them all. Halbitron engineers came up with a tool that would be placed under the sand and use a sand saw at extreme pressure. Once they got rolling,in one day they capped 40 wells.

Of course the general media never mentioned it at all. Wouldn't of been PC. I didn't know about it till I saw it on the History Channel.

Steal their oil? We saved them untold million, maybe billions of barrels. Without our intervention, they would of burned till exausted. I imagine the Europeans could of stepped in. BTW, to show their gratitude to the US, Kuwait's oil is the most expensive on the planet, despite having some of the easiest oil to produce and a port at the persian gulf.

[Rock Chalk]

This thread has been enlightening in one aspect.

Seems to me that both our leftist near communist friends and our rightist near fascist friends all agree that mghaffney is a ****tard of the highest order.

Me, I didnt read the article. I learned after 3 of ****tards posts that he had nothing I wanted to, needed to or cared to hear.

I know this, I look at the American Flag and see something great. Imperfect, with flaws, but great nonetheless. Something intangible, the will behind what that flag stands for is the single greatest thing this world has ever known and, God willing, will remain that way. Our leaders are not perfect, they never have been and they never will be. Our soldiers are not perfect, and our citizens are not perfect. Nothing is. I do know that while perfection can never be attained, that this great experiment of a republic is the closest thing any of us will ever know to perfection.

Just my two cents.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Quit your incessant whining and do something to fix it then there mini-nuke. Your ranting and raving is a freaking waste of time, and tries many's patience. then again, I'm done with ya, you quite simply are not worth the time..dmanHow could anyone's post try your patience? And gaffney is doing something about his perceived world ills. He's published in several circles. His credibility went south when he claimed the the U.S. government brought down the WTC towers with "mini-nukes" though.

[alkemical]

Humans constantly evolve.

Humans don't really evolve so to say in a darwin type theory

[Garcia Bronco]

Humans don't really evolve so to say in a darwin type theory

But we do evolve...it's just that we can't see it from generation to generation.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

BTW, to show their gratitude to the US, Kuwait's oil is the most expensive on the planet, despite having some of the easiest oil to produce and a port at the persian gulf.Did you learn this on the History Channel too?

[Garcia Bronco]

How could anyone's post try your patience? And gaffney is doing something about his perceived world ills. He's published in several circles. His credibility went south when he claimed the the U.S. government brought down the WTC towers with "mini-nukes" though.

I am published too...so what...any idiot with a PC can be published.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I am published too...so what...any idiot with a PC can be published.Really, where?

[Garcia Bronco]

Really, where?

I cannot give out that information as it would directly link to my identity. But rest assured...I am published.

[TailgateNut]

Really, where?



........on the tile wall in the ladies restroom at the gas station!

[ak1971]

........on the tile wall in the ladies restroom at the gas station!

thats the best place.....

Here I sit buns a flexin...tried to...never mind

[alkemical]

I have some of my songs published..... lol

garcia - humans don't evolve in terms of evolution in terms of darwanism if you don't believe in darwinsim - i'm not going to hijack the thread - but really are we today any smarter than say... greeks/romans/aegyptians? I'd think not. They used a different technology than what we have is all.

[TailgateNut]

.......Garcia's poetry.....as published in stall #2


"stranded on a toilet bowl,
what do you do when you're stranded,
and you ain't got a roll,
To prove you're a man,
youmust wipe it with you're hand,
stranded on a toilet bowl.....";D

[The Lone Bolt]

A secret society called the Hairianuses are actually the cause for the iraq war. In fact, they invented globalization, weaving an asphyxiating web of debt and economic dependency of sovereign states upon Transantional financial institutions. They are the reason we are in Iraq people, WAKE UP. It is the doing of the Hairianusses, who seek to create the illusion that the US is punishing states for foolish defiance of the petro dollar while they slaugther innocent families! The news is littered with clues, OPEN YOUR EYES, who does this war really benefit? not the US! The Hairianusses!

As we, the deceived and ignorant public hear the fabricated tales of our compromised media, this secret power hungry group has taken over our country. They control the petro dollar, they incite world conflict and benefit from the illegal arms trade while millions of innocents die. They're the reason our country is in so much debt, over spending on defense, defense? HA! Look at our foreign policies! They are imperialistic! All so that we may be ruined!

The Hairianuses will stop at nothing until the ruin of the America! Don't yous SEEEEE? They are creating the impression that the US will stop at nothing untill they become the authoritative hegemon of the world!!! Meanwhile they finish laying out their final peice of the puzzel, the European Union, which is blatant destruction of statehood! European citizens protest to no avail of the weaking of the legislative power their elected officials hold. The small, wealthy, elitist group will eventually use the aggressive nature of the US, driven by their two spies - BUSH AND CHENEY to create a challenging alliance against NATO AND THE UN! Its already happening! Look at France and GermanY!!! They want to subject earth to their authoritative rule, and they will stop at nothing. Once such feat is accomplished, they will set out for their ultimate task to build a BIG HAIRY ANUS!

you can ignore my incoherent drivel, but I will continually repost it until you're all convinced the political atmosphere in todays world clearly points to the final end game of the BIG HAIR ANUS.



I'M CONVINCED!! ALL HAIL THE HAIRIANUSES!!:notworthy










:rofl: Hilarious! Hilarious! Hilarious!

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I cannot give out that information as it would directly link to my identity. But rest assured...I am published. Ah, you mean you were just BSing, I get it.

[Garcia Bronco]

I have some of my songs published..... lol

garcia - humans don't evolve in terms of evolution in terms of darwanism if you don't believe in darwinsim - i'm not going to hijack the thread - but really are we today any smarter than say... greeks/romans/aegyptians? I'd think not. They used a different technology than what we have is all.

Well I would argue that technology is a part of that difference. Are we smarter? I don't know...I wasn't alive in then

[Garcia Bronco]

Ah, you mean you were just BSing, I get it.

I have been published...my work has appeared in several places.

[alkemical]

Well I would argue that technology is a part of that difference. Are we smarter? I don't know...I wasn't alive in then

Duuuude - they had technology. Just not what we use. Come on man... Building world wonders that have lasted for what seems to be aeons, not to mention the mathematics, etc -

I mean, any civilization that can lay a foundation for the world using maths, sciences, astronomy, etc - so since you weren't alive back then - i guess the rest of it is kinda moot as well.....

[Garcia Bronco]

Duuuude - they had technology. Just not what we use. Come on man... Building world wonders that have lasted for what seems to be aeons, not to mention the mathematics, etc -

I mean, any civilization that can lay a foundation for the world using maths, sciences, astronomy, etc - so since you weren't alive back then - i guess the rest of it is kinda moot as well.....


Well...i think we're different...and I think we are better.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I have been published...my work has appeared in several places.What kind of work?

[sutoazul]

I have some of my songs published..... lol

garcia - humans don't evolve in terms of evolution in terms of darwanism if you don't believe in darwinsim - i'm not going to hijack the thread - but really are we today any smarter than say... greeks/romans/aegyptians? I'd think not. They used a different technology than what we have is all.

dude of course we are a lot smater than greeks/romas/ enyptians.....
How many of those people knew or were able to to as much as you do today?? i.e.: read, do simple calculations in your head, multitask...etc..... it's just the little things. Some of The geniuses of the past, would be just merely above average today. And yes technology have a lot to do with this. Anyways... the fact of the matter is that we are evoluting every time, we don't see it because for our survival we do not need an extreme change so that one can notice it from generation to generation.

[alkemical]

dude of course we are a lot smater than greeks/romas/ enyptians.....
How many of those people knew or were able to to as much as you do today?? i.e.: read, do simple calculations in your head, multitask...etc..... it's just the little things. Some of The geniuses of the past, would be just merely above average today. And yes technology have a lot to do with this. Anyways... the fact of the matter is that we are evoluting every time, we don't see it because for our survival we do not need an extreme change so that one can notice it from generation to generation.

I don't believe we are at all.

[alkemical]

Well...i think we're different...and I think we are better.

we aren't better till we can make concrete last as long as the romans... ;)

[clarkster]

The polls show otherwise: approximately 70% of Americans now oppose Bush and his dirty war. A recent poll of US troops in Iraq shows that opposition to the war is even stronger among the GIs who are on the ground. 72% of them believe it is wrong and want it ended.

OK Gaff (how appropriate is that?),
Show me the links to those Polls. I want to know who took them, when, and where. You appear to have inflated those numbers by quite a bit. I won't speak to the "70% of Americans" comment, but I will address the "72% of GIs on the ground" portion. BS. Plain and simple. Maybe among reservists who were looking for the GI Bill and a job skill that never banked on a war, but most definitely not among active duty ground elements. Re-enlistments are up, and most of the guys I KNOW in-country voice more frustration over the same old garbage that we in the field always have...being away from home, missing The World, upper eschelon pukes having their heads up their collective posteriors and not listening to the grunts in the field, etc. Same old same old. As for the mission (establishing a democratic government), frustrated at the lack of progress...of course. Ready to get the F out tomorrow and watch it all come crumbling down.... F no.

The point of the above article is that Tillman, like all of the other dead US troops, threw their lives away for nothing.

The real point that matters is that good men and women of our armed forces have been accused of "throwing our lives away for nothing" by pacifist, isolationist, elitist psudo-intellectuals like you and your bed wetting buddy Mickey Z since the inception of this country. The good news for you is that honorable men and women in this country will continue to do so. That way you can continue to live in your perfect little America hating world.

If Iraq didn't get your undivided attention -- I promise you -- the next round will. Unless we can someone prevent it.


I prefer: If 9/11 didn't get your undivided attention--I promise you--an Iranian terror state controlling Nukes and Iraqi oil will. Unless we can somehow PREVENT it.

Semper Fi,
Dutch

nice- rack him. seriously though, i cant walk away from a thread like this, being the ignorant, right wing, war monger, blah blah blah that i am...

a few things id like to piggy back on- you can hate the war, the politics, the whatever you want, and i have no other answer, just like everyone else, however, one thing i do know, theres only one way to ensure the lives lost there are "wasted", leave without finishing the job.
but joe public says "who gives a ****" or " theyve been fighting for a billion years" and thats exactly why this country is going to hell. joe public and his hippie girlfriend dont know whats best for this country, and neither do i, however, i do know that someones life is better, over there, and thats cool if you ask me.

on a side note, i was watching a TV show the other day documenting the protest during some convention, people everywhere, burning flags, beating each other up, getting arrested, protesting GWB and "his war", and at one point the guy asked someone where the republicans an Bush supporters were at, to which he replied, probably at work. i thought to be funny, because as Im watching all these young people so intent on making their point, and i was thinking, dont these people work?

[Garcia Bronco]

we aren't better till we can make concrete last as long as the romans... ;)

Well...I sit near a greek guy at work..and he swears they are better than the Romans ever were. :)

[Garcia Bronco]

What kind of work?

Work unique to my field of study...which at the time was ritual practices in Britain.

[ak1971]

I Support The Occupation Of Iraq, But I Don't Support Our Troops

The U.S. went to war in Iraq to remove an evil and dangerous political adversary from power. Now that we have done that, the American troops must remain in Iraq until the country is a fully functioning democracy, able to spark change throughout the entire Middle East. While I find this obvious, there are still a lot of people in our country who fail to grasp it. I support Bush-administration foreign-policy goals, but I stand firmly against the individual men and women on the ground in the Persian Gulf.

Yes, occupying Iraq does require troops, but they are there for one reason and one reason only: to carry out the orders of the U.S. Defense Department. As far as their overall importance goes, they are no more worthy of our consideration than a box of nails. Ribbons and banners in ostensible "support" of the troops miss the whole point of the invasion, which is to gain a strategic hold over that volatile and lucrative geopolitical region.

Need I remind the reader that it is our flag, not the troops, that we salute? It is our nation-state, not a bunch of 20-year-olds in parachute pants, that deserves our allegiance. As a patriot and true American, my heart sings at the thought of the Pentagon, and the zealous, calculating measures undertaken by the proud military bureaucracy of this great superpower. I feel a surge of pride when I think about our high-tech GBU laser-guided bombs, capable of carrying a 2,000-pound warhead. I tied a ribbon around my tree for the safe return of our nation's F-16s, because our military aircraft are instrumental to finishing our work in Iraq. And on the back of my car, I have a sticker stating my support for the CIA's ongoing efforts in Iraq.

I support the occupation, and the occupation alone, because when we start to support the troops, we pave the way for irrelevant concerns about their families back at home. Before you know it, questions about who is and isn't going to be home in time for Christmas will be interfering with the crucial decision-making process of our commander-in-chief.

I'd like to ask those currently trumpeting their support for the troops a question: Have you ever actually met any of these soldiers in person? Well, I have, and believe me, they are no more impressive than any other low-level functionary of a large institution.

In all honesty, my soul swells with pride at the thought of the military-strategy papers and cost-analysis reports in which the troops are represented as numerical figures. But, as for the men and women—well, in almost every respect, they are average. Although they are no less intelligent than any other American, it is certainly fair to say they lack the ability to devise the complex strategies and tactics to manage their own divisions, much less grasp the nuanced reasons for their deployment.

It is ridiculous that my "heart" is somehow morally or ethically obliged to "go out" to the troops. In fact, had the troops not been put to productive labor by the sheer might and institutional authority of the U.S. military, a good number of them would be sitting around bars, drinking and gambling. In short, we shouldn't view the troops as objects of sympathy, because their very contribution to our society is their ability to carry out simple commands on a battlefield.

Allow me to pursue this from a more personal angle. I have a son in the military. If I may say so, we've never gotten along particularly well. Frankly, he's been a bit of a disappointment to his mother and me. Nevertheless, he is our flesh and blood and always will be, and we wish him no harm. So I speak from a position of personal experience when I say that, while I do not wish death for any of the troops, death tolls should not be our greatest concern. All that matters is the pursuit of the foreign-policy goals of this great land, the land I love. America
The U.S. went to war in Iraq to remove an evil and dangerous political adversary from power. Now that we have done that, the American troops must remain in Iraq until the country is a fully functioning democracy, able to spark change throughout the entire Middle East. While I find this obvious, there are still a lot of people in our country who fail to grasp it. I support Bush-administration foreign-policy goals, but I stand firmly against the individual men and women on the ground in the Persian Gulf.

Yes, occupying Iraq does require troops, but they are there for one reason and one reason only: to carry out the orders of the U.S. Defense Department. As far as their overall importance goes, they are no more worthy of our consideration than a box of nails. Ribbons and banners in ostensible "support" of the troops miss the whole point of the invasion, which is to gain a strategic hold over that volatile and lucrative geopolitical region.

Need I remind the reader that it is our flag, not the troops, that we salute? It is our nation-state, not a bunch of 20-year-olds in parachute pants, that deserves our allegiance. As a patriot and true American, my heart sings at the thought of the Pentagon, and the zealous, calculating measures undertaken by the proud military bureaucracy of this great superpower. I feel a surge of pride when I think about our high-tech GBU laser-guided bombs, capable of carrying a 2,000-pound warhead. I tied a ribbon around my tree for the safe return of our nation's F-16s, because our military aircraft are instrumental to finishing our work in Iraq. And on the back of my car, I have a sticker stating my support for the CIA's ongoing efforts in Iraq.

I support the occupation, and the occupation alone, because when we start to support the troops, we pave the way for irrelevant concerns about their families back at home. Before you know it, questions about who is and isn't going to be home in time for Christmas will be interfering with the crucial decision-making process of our commander-in-chief.

I'd like to ask those currently trumpeting their support for the troops a question: Have you ever actually met any of these soldiers in person? Well, I have, and believe me, they are no more impressive than any other low-level functionary of a large institution.

In all honesty, my soul swells with pride at the thought of the military-strategy papers and cost-analysis reports in which the troops are represented as numerical figures. But, as for the men and women—well, in almost every respect, they are average. Although they are no less intelligent than any other American, it is certainly fair to say they lack the ability to devise the complex strategies and tactics to manage their own divisions, much less grasp the nuanced reasons for their deployment.

It is ridiculous that my "heart" is somehow morally or ethically obliged to "go out" to the troops. In fact, had the troops not been put to productive labor by the sheer might and institutional authority of the U.S. military, a good number of them would be sitting around bars, drinking and gambling. In short, we shouldn't view the troops as objects of sympathy, because their very contribution to our society is their ability to carry out simple commands on a battlefield.

Allow me to pursue this from a more personal angle. I have a son in the military. If I may say so, we've never gotten along particularly well. Frankly, he's been a bit of a disappointment to his mother and me. Nevertheless, he is our flesh and blood and always will be, and we wish him no harm. So I speak from a position of personal experience when I say that, while I do not wish death for any of the troops, death tolls should not be our greatest concern. All that matters is the pursuit of the foreign-policy goals of this great land, the land I love. America


http://www.theonion.com/content/node/34068 (hey its a quoted news source right?)

[Rohirrim]

I wonder what ole Mickey thinks when some young girl, say 16 years or so, goes outside in a desperate attempt to find some food for her starving family, but unfortunately, her burka is torn. The local thought police offical of the Taliban notices her and apprehends her. For her transgression, she is trucked to the soccer stadium, made to kneel in the dirt while an AK is placed to the back of her head - and while people applaud - her brains are blown into the dirt. That's what Osama stands for. That's what the Taliban stand for. And he thinks Americans are suffering from a "propaganda induced fog?"

Perhaps Mickey would like to join his true, revolutionary brethren, his hero, Osama, and the Taliban, in the caves of Afghanistan? Although, as is the case with most who are born with mouth too big, they are also born without balls.

[Bronco Bob]

Hey gafney...have you grown your Hilter mustache yet? Seig Heil!

I don't understand the Hitler connection. When did Hitler badmouth his country
or the soldiers fighting for it?* Hitler's problem was he was too patriotic.
How does gafney compare with that?

I'm afraid I'm going to have to invoke a severe case of Godwin's Law on you.



(* Now Hitler did become disillusioned at the very end before he committed suicide, but I'm talking about in general.)

[Bronco Bob]

Here's the truth. I don't impugn Pat Tillman in any way. He was probably doing what he believed was right. But so are the Iraqis who are fighting us.

The point of the above article is that Tillman, like all of the other dead US troops, threw their lives away for nothing.

Or maybe you think that invading a nation that never attacked us or threatened us --- so we can steal their oil -- is a noble cause. If you think that, shame on you.



But Afghanistan DID attack us (I don't buy your BS that 9/11 was an inside
job). And the al-Quada training camps in Afghanistan WERE a treat to us.
And besides, Afghanistan doesn't have any oil to steal anyway.

[ak1971]

I don't understand the Hitler connection. When did Hitler badmouth his country
or the soldiers fighting for it?* Hitler's problem was he was too patriotic.
How does gafney compare with that?

I'm afraid I'm going to have to invoke a severe case of Godwin's Law on you.



(* Now Hitler did become disillusioned at the very end before he committed suicide, but I'm talking about in general.)


Im comparing him for his anti semitism...maybe not the best comparison, but you get the idea

[Bronco Bob]

Hate the war not the warrior (and the faulty intelligence reports our administration was working off). Who was one the key people who stripped our intelligence agencies? I believe your boy Bubba might have something to do with that ( plus the fact that back in the day he had Osama's head on a platter but didn't want to get his hands dirty). Whatever, support the troops no matter what, bash the policticos.

And I believe you are full of s**t, to be blunt about it.
Just because you believe horses**t from Faux Noise, doesn't make it true.
Clinton did a hell of a lot more to get bin Laden than Bush has.

[Bronco Bob]

Would this be the same war that Hillary and Kerry supported?

More Faux Noise talking points? Clinton and Kerry voted on a resolution which
would use diplomatic means and weapons inspections to have Saddam give up
his WMDs and force was only to be used as a last resort. It's not their fault
Dubya used force as the first resort because Dubya knew damn well that
Saddam no longer had any WMDs, and lied to Clinton and Kerry about it.

[Bronco Bob]

Few things. I have seen oil and gas prices skyrocket. So much for the "theft" of Iraqi oil.

Why would you assume that the stolen Iraqi oil would be sold to you cheaper?
Are you aware the oil companies are seeing massive profits? Who said the
Iraqi oil was intended for your benefit?

[Bronco Bob]

BTW, to show their gratitude to the US, Kuwait's oil is the most expensive on the planet, despite having some of the easiest oil to produce and a port at the persian gulf.

Isn't Kuwait an OPEC member? As such, OPEC sets the price of oil for its
members. So why would Kuwait's oil be any more expensive than Saudi
Arabia's oil?

[loborugger]

I cannot give out that information as it would directly link to my identity. But rest assured...I am published.

Dude, its ok. You can totally trust Beersnitch with your identity. Its not like he would ever abuse knowing who you are if you pissed him off.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Dude, its ok. You can totally trust Beersnitch with your identity. Its not like he would ever abuse knowing who you are if you pissed him off.In chimes carpetpuppy with his superior knowledge of alleged events. You and Garcia make quite the couple.

[Garcia Bronco]

In chimes carpetpuppy with his superior knowledge of alleged events. You and Garcia make quite the couple.

Did you do what he said? And you really should be nicer to people on this board.

[alkemical]

Garcia,

If you post under your real name though - you can slander anyone you want without having to pay a fine or go to jail.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Did you do what he said? And you really should be nicer to people on this board.Did you really write anything that was published? And you should really stop throwing sh*t on the walls around here.

[Garcia Bronco]

Did you really write anything that was published? And you should really stop throwing sh*t on the walls around here.

Yes I have.

Now did you do what he said?

[mhgaffney]

Im comparing him for his anti semitism...maybe not the best comparison, but you get the idea

Do you make a habit of attacks like this? Do you simply enjoy hurling insults at people?

The truth is I am not and have never been anti semitic. I am accused of this because I am a long time critic of Israel's brutal repression of the Palestinians. As we've seen again and again, this accusation is simply a weapon used by Israel and its supporters to silence all critics.

There are genuine anti semites around. I'm not denying they exist. But they do not find common cause among peace activists like myself. We have no part of them.

The fact that Israel's supporters have largely succeeded in cowing all critics is about to become a disaster for our country. We are about to be dragged into another war (largely thanks to Israel -- they've been pushing for it) against a nation (Iran) that is NO threat to us -- indeed, a nation that has never invaded or attacked anyone in the modern era - except in its own self defense.

The US and Israel, on the other hand, have invaded and/or attacked nation after nation. The list is as long as your arm.

I am very open about where I stand on the issues. I am a scholar and you are welcome to check me out. My book about the Naassenes is already a classic in the field of Gnostic-Christianity. But don't take my word for it. Check it out.

www.gnosticsecrets.com

[mhgaffney]

Few things. I have seen oil and gas prices skyrocket. So much for the "theft" of Iraqi oil. The conflicts that became WWII started in 1933 in China. I realize you may or may not have a difficult time with this, but simply leaving Iraq will not make the jihadists stop. Course, you probably think 9/11 was an inside job, so logic and reason are probably foriegn concepts to you.

:Broncos:

You are correct that Iraqi oil production went down after the US invasion -- but you fail to understand the reason. In fact, this invalidates your argument.

Thanks to their unlimited arrogance and delusions about power Bush and company over-reached by invading Iraq.

Their goal was to control one of the world's largest oil reserves. Not that the US needs Iraqi oil. NO, but the neo cons are into total control of world production -- as a way of exercising US hegemony world wide.

In their ignorance they failed to understand that oil fields are the easiest kind of infrastructure to sabotague -- and the most difficult to protect. This is why Iraqi oil production has dropped -- due to a colossal miscalculation in Washington.

WW II started in China yes but the seeds were sown at the Paris Treaty of Versailles after WW I. In fact, this was also the basis for the current problems in the Mideast.


The problems in Iraq have been caused by the US occupation. The presence of jihadists there is secondary. This is why as long as we remain so will the jihadiists.

If we leave the Sunnis and Shi'ites will sit down and attempt to negotiate an end to the civil war. As long as we remain this cannot happen. For which reason our presence is an obstacle to an eventual settlement.

Polls show that today most Iraqis want us out of their country. I find it distasteful that so many on this board who profess to support democracy don't give two hoots about what the Iraqi people want.

[mhgaffney]

Quit your incessant whining and do something to fix it then there mini-nuke. Your ranting and raving is a freaking waste of time, and tries many's patience. then again, I'm done with ya, you quite simply are not worth the time..dman

I have simply been trying to warn you about what is coming. It is going to be more horrible than you can imagine.

The last line of defense is to get in touch with the spiritual energy that moves the cosmos. It lives in your own heart, under all of the layers of delusion and wretched darkness.

www.gnosticsecrets.com

[Stuck In Texas]

(Iran) that is NO threat to us -- indeed, a nation that has never invaded or attacked anyone in the modern era - except in its own self defense.


So 1979 is NOT the modern era?

[Garcia Bronco]

"WW II started in China yes but the seeds were sown at the Paris Treaty of Versailles after WW I. In fact, this was also the basis for the current problems in the Mideast."

This is actually true...and you can blame the Russians, French, and Spain for that because the ...what was it...14 points...were mostly ignored.

7th grade history class was awesome

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Yes I have.
I don't believe you, show me.

[Garcia Bronco]

I don't believe you, show me.

Sorry buddy...I cannot give you thank information. Your disbelief is okay with me.

[W*GS]

I have simply been trying to warn you about what is coming. It is going to be more horrible than you can imagine.

A world dominated by folks like you would be worse.

The last line of defense is to get in touch with the spiritual energy that moves the cosmos. It lives in your own heart, under all of the layers of delusion and wretched darkness.

www.gnosticsecrets.com

...and followed by a plug for his book.

At least if the world is going into the ****can, gaffney will move up a few places at Amazon.com...

[yavoon]

I have simply been trying to warn you about what is coming. It is going to be more horrible than you can imagine.

The last line of defense is to get in touch with the spiritual energy that moves the cosmos. It lives in your own heart, under all of the layers of delusion and wretched darkness.

www.gnosticsecrets.com

I was making light of baja before BUT THIS sounds like the rapture!

HEED NOT YE HEATHENS FOR THE TIME OF JUDGEMENT IS NIGH!

[ak1971]

[QUOTE=mhgaffney;1528925]noits own self defense.

The list is as long as your arm.


/QUOTE]



my arms got cut off in a tragic accident.

[loborugger]

In chimes carpetpuppy with his superior knowledge of alleged events. You and Garcia make quite the couple.

Better a carpet puppy than a snitch - allegedly.

[Bronco Bob]

So 1979 is NOT the modern era?

What does 1979 have to do with anything? How does a group of students
seizing people they deemed to be spies equate to a massive bombing
campaign? No one was even harmed, everyone got out alive. Heck,
they even let the Blacks and women go shortly after being taken,
that's how non-violent they were.

[defenseman]

What does 1979 have to do with anything? How does a group of students
seizing people they deemed to be spies equate to a massive bombing
campaign? No one was even harmed, everyone got out alive. Heck,
they even let the Blacks and women go shortly after being taken,
that's how non-violent they were.

So, what you are really saying is , WE can do the same to ANY freaking country out there and THEY don't have to worry because, we'll let all the blacks and women go right away, and what the heck, we'll release them when we feel like it, as long as they are ALIVE? That is what you are saying.....and endorsing. I'm all for it, let's go snatch some folks from all over the freaking world, deem them spies and hold them, just for s**ts and giggles what do you say there bobby boy?...dman

*It's OK for them to do it, but not us? DON'T FREAKING THINK SO.....

[Stuck In Texas]

What does 1979 have to do with anything? How does a group of students
seizing people they deemed to be spies equate to a massive bombing
campaign? No one was even harmed, everyone got out alive. Heck,
they even let the Blacks and women go shortly after being taken,
that's how non-violent they were.

What does 1979 have to do with anything? Well, Gaff said that Iran never attacked anybody. In 1979 the U.S. embassy was attacked, yes by students, but also with the full knowledge and support of the (then) new Iranian government. An attack on an embassy is an attack on a country. So yes, Iran has attacked another country in the modern era... us.

If you don't believe that the government of Iran was behind it, then why was the Carter Administration negotiating with the government and why did Reagan threaten the government? I guess it could be just a coincidence that the hostages were released after the president-elect let it be known that he wasn't going to take it, like the outgoing one - but I doubt it.

[Bronco Bob]

Why did Reagan threaten the government? I guess it could be just a coincidence that the hostages were released after the president-elect let it be known that he wasn't going to take it, like the outgoing one - but I doubt it.

Reagan's only threat to Iran was to give Iran back the $8 billion in Iranian
assets that Carter had frozen in exchange for the hostages. Which was
a deal Reagan had made with Iran before Reagan was even elected, and
borders on treason to make secret deals with a foreign government
when Reagan had no power to make such a deal. This was the reason
the hostages were released at the precise moment Reagan took the
oath of office.

But no big deal. We got the money back when Reagan sold weapons to
Iran later on during the Iran-Iraq war.

[Bronco Bob]

So, what you are really saying is , WE can do the same to ANY freaking country out there and THEY don't have to worry because, we'll let all the blacks and women go right away, and what the heck, we'll release them when we feel like it, as long as they are ALIVE? That is what you are saying.....and endorsing. I'm all for it, let's go snatch some folks from all over the freaking world, deem them spies and hold them, just for s**ts and giggles what do you say there bobby boy?...dman

*It's OK for them to do it, but not us? DON'T FREAKING THINK SO.....

No, I'm saying a bunch of angry students taking a few hostages because
they were angry that the USA was harboring the Shah in no way compares
to a massive bombing campaign to futher the neo-con political agenda.

[Stuck In Texas]

No, I'm saying a bunch of angry students taking a few hostages because
they were angry that the USA was harboring the Shah in no way compares
to a massive bombing campaign to futher the neo-con political agenda.
I was countering Gaff's point that Iran never attacked anybody. It wasn't a comparison between which is more severe - that was your issue - unrelated to my point.

So a bombing campaign is a "neocon" issue? Funny, I never pictured Bill Clinton as a neocon. I need to reread that list of definitions. ;D

[mhgaffney]

What does 1979 have to do with anything? Well, Gaff said that Iran never attacked anybody. In 1979 the U.S. embassy was attacked, yes by students, but also with the full knowledge and support of the (then) new Iranian government. An attack on an embassy is an attack on a country. So yes, Iran has attacked another country in the modern era... us.

If you don't believe that the government of Iran was behind it, then why was the Carter Administration negotiating with the government and why did Reagan threaten the government? I guess it could be just a coincidence that the hostages were released after the president-elect let it be known that he wasn't going to take it, like the outgoing one - but I doubt it.

Stuck, boy are you ever stuck. Like most Americans -- you need a history lesson.

The modern era did not start in 1979. You are unaware that in 1953 the US CIA subverted democracy in Iran -- staged the overthrow of a Constitutionally elected leader, PM Mossadegh -- and replaced him with our puppet, the Shah.

Mossadegh was a true populist -- and an excellent leader. But we replaced him when he insisted that the oil contract with British petroleum be re negotiated to give Iran a fair price for its major export commodity - oil. The US and UK refused, however, and instead ousted the duly elected leader -- and installed tyrant in his place -- the Shah..

The US went on the train the Shah's notorious police, the Savak, and give him all kinds of weapons -- and a nuclear reactor. No one in Washington had any problems then with an Iranian nuclear program in those days. In fact, Cheney and Rumsfeld and the same recycled crowd of neo cons helped persuade the Shah to go nuclear.

Which makes the current Bush policy of bashing Iran pure hypocrisy.

In 1979 the people of Iran threw out the hated shah -- and it is no surprise there was a lot of anger at the US -- for meddling in their nation's affairs. If you believe in democracy you must agree they had good reason.

Bob is correct about the October Surprise -- and from what I've heard not even one of the US hostages was hurt. I could be wrong about this but I believe they were all returned safely and in one piece.

I urge you to read Stephen Kinzer's best seller ALL THE SHAH'S MEN, which a terrific short history of this dark episode in our relationship with Iran. Unfortunately, it looks like Bush is about to commit an even greater crime against Iran -- and the world.

We no longer have a US government worthy of respect. No, a criminal mafia is running our nation.

MHG

[mhgaffney]

What does 1979 have to do with anything? Well, Gaff said that Iran never attacked anybody. In 1979 the U.S. embassy was attacked, yes by students, but also with the full knowledge and support of the (then) new Iranian government. An attack on an embassy is an attack on a country. So yes, Iran has attacked another country in the modern era... us.

If you don't believe that the government of Iran was behind it, then why was the Carter Administration negotiating with the government and why did Reagan threaten the government? I guess it could be just a coincidence that the hostages were released after the president-elect let it be known that he wasn't going to take it, like the outgoing one - but I doubt it.

Stuck, boy are you ever stuck. Like most Americans -- you need a history lesson.

The modern era did not start in 1979. You are unaware that in 1953 the US CIA subverted democracy in Iran -- staged the overthrow of a Constitutionally elected leader, PM Mossadegh -- and replaced him with our puppet, the Shah.

Mossadegh was a true populist -- and an excellent leader. But we replaced him when he insisted that the oil contract with British petroleum be re negotiated to give Iran a fair price for its major export commodity - oil. The US and UK refused, however, and instead ousted the duly elected leader -- and installed tyrant in his place -- the Shah..

The US went on the train the Shah's notorious police, the Savak, and give him all kinds of weapons -- and a nuclear reactor. No one in Washington had any problems then with an Iranian nuclear program in those days. In fact, Cheney and Rumsfeld and the same recycled crowd of neo cons helped persuade the Shah to go nuclear.

Which makes the current Bush policy of bashing Iran pure hypocrisy.

In 1979 the people of Iran threw out the hated shah -- and it is no surprise there was a lot of anger at the US -- for meddling in their nation's affairs. If you believe in democracy you must agree they had good reason.

Bob is correct about the October Surprise -- and from what I've heard not even one of the US hostages was hurt. I could be wrong about this but I believe they were all returned safely and in one piece.

I urge you to read Stephen Kinzer's best seller ALL THE SHAH'S MEN, which a terrific short history of this dark episode in our relationship with Iran. Unfortunately, it looks like Bush is about to commit an even greater crime against Iran -- and the world.

We no longer have a US government worthy of respect. No, a criminal mafia is running our nation.

MHG

[Bronco Bob]

We may have our disagreements. But what you said in your last two posts
is correct, especially the second one. But don't be surprised to see a lot of
shoot the messenger replies to the two of them.

[mhgaffney]

We may have our disagreements. But what you said in your last two posts
is correct, especially the second one. But don't be surprised to see a lot of
shoot the messenger replies to the two of them.

Well whaddya know -- we finally agree about something. I will savor the moment.

[yavoon]

We may have our disagreements. But what you said in your last two posts
is correct, especially the second one. But don't be surprised to see a lot of
shoot the messenger replies to the two of them.

what that the US gov't is just a bunch of criminals now, and we were just a bunch of criminals back then.

thats chomsky playbook 101. sure it might seem enticing because the present criminals are more hated than the past criminals, but its all the same **** in the end.

[Bronco Bob]

what that the US gov't is just a bunch of criminals now, and we were just a bunch of criminals back then.

thats chomsky playbook 101. sure it might seem enticing because the present criminals are more hated than the past criminals, but its all the same **** in the end.

Which part about the Shah of Iran did you dispute? Which part about Reagan's
involvement with the hostages did you dispute?

[Stuck In Texas]

Stuck, boy are you ever stuck. Like most Americans -- you need a history lesson.

The modern era did not start in 1979. You are unaware that in 1953 the US CIA subverted democracy in Iran -- staged the overthrow of a Constitutionally elected leader, PM Mossadegh -- and replaced him with our puppet, the Shah.

Mossadegh was a true populist -- and an excellent leader. But we replaced him when he insisted that the oil contract with British petroleum be re negotiated to give Iran a fair price for its major export commodity - oil. The US and UK refused, however, and instead ousted the duly elected leader -- and installed tyrant in his place -- the Shah..

The US went on the train the Shah's notorious police, the Savak, and give him all kinds of weapons -- and a nuclear reactor. No one in Washington had any problems then with an Iranian nuclear program in those days. In fact, Cheney and Rumsfeld and the same recycled crowd of neo cons helped persuade the Shah to go nuclear.

Which makes the current Bush policy of bashing Iran pure hypocrisy.

In 1979 the people of Iran threw out the hated shah -- and it is no surprise there was a lot of anger at the US -- for meddling in their nation's affairs. If you believe in democracy you must agree they had good reason.

Bob is correct about the October Surprise -- and from what I've heard not even one of the US hostages was hurt. I could be wrong about this but I believe they were all returned safely and in one piece.

I urge you to read Stephen Kinzer's best seller ALL THE SHAH'S MEN, which a terrific short history of this dark episode in our relationship with Iran. Unfortunately, it looks like Bush is about to commit an even greater crime against Iran -- and the world.

We no longer have a US government worthy of respect. No, a criminal mafia is running our nation.

MHGGreat info, thanks Gaff! I still don't see where you dispute that Iran attacked us. Embassies are the sovereign territory of the nation they represent. Are you saying that because nobody was hurt, it doesn't really count? I certainly hope you're not going to justify them holding our guys for 440+ days while claiming the U.S. is criminal in holding people in Guantanamo.

Unfortunately Gaff, and it's nothing against you - it's obvious that I won't ever agree with you or Bronco Bob because I refuse to believe that everything about America is bad or evil. I see us as more a force of good in the world than bad.

[yavoon]

Which part about the Shah of Iran did you dispute? Which part about Reagan's
involvement with the hostages did you dispute?

I make a point not to go around disputing mhgaffney whenever possible, thats for braver souls than me. once u see his narrative though u can pretty easily see through it all.

[Bronco Bob]

Great info, thanks Gaff! I still don't see where you dispute that Iran attacked us. Embassies are the sovereign territory of the nation they represent. Are you saying that because nobody was hurt, it doesn't really count? I certainly hope you're not going to justify them holding our guys for 440+ days while claiming the U.S. is criminal in holding people in Guantanamo.

Unfortunately Gaff, and it's nothing against you - it's obvious that I won't ever agree with you or Bronco Bob because I refuse to believe that everything about America is bad or evil. I see us as more a force of good in the world than bad.

Tell that to the Iranians who were held hostage in their own country from
1953 to 1979. Yes, we do good in the world. But to blindly ignore the bad
things we have done and then act like it is a complete surprise when the
people who got hurt seek revenge is a little naive. And it was very mild
revenge at that, considering what the Shah, who was supported by the US,
did to the Iranian people. People in other countries might have drug them
through the streets or hung their bodies from a bridge, instead of feeding
them and keeping them safe until Reagan bribed the Iranians into letting
them go.
We all rightly condemn Saddam Hussein, but somehow sweep the
Shah of Iran under the rug and act like we are the only ones who
suffered a big hurt.

[alkemical]

Even more interesting - was the shah was to be installed due to the PM wanting to nationalize the oil fields and remove it from BP control.....

[Stuck In Texas]

Tell that to the Iranians who were held hostage in their own country from
1953 to 1979. Yes, we do good in the world. But to blindly ignore the bad
things we have done and then act like it is a complete surprise when the
people who got hurt seek revenge is a little naive. And it was very mild
revenge at that, considering what the Shah, who was supported by the US,
did to the Iranian people. People in other countries might have drug them
through the streets or hung their bodies from a bridge, instead of feeding
them and keeping them safe until Reagan bribed the Iranians into letting
them go.
We all rightly condemn Saddam Hussein, but somehow sweep the
Shah of Iran under the rug and act like we are the only ones who
suffered a big hurt.It seems like now the discussion has morphed into "degrees" of attack. My only point of the original post was that Iran had indeed attacked us in the past. I still haven't seen anyone refute that.

I'm not aware of Reagan bribing the Iranians to let those hostages go. I am aware of the Iran/Contra scandal, but I believe that had more to do with hostages being held in Lebanon by people under Iranian influence.

Most people on the left I've talked to believe the embassy hostages were released as a result of Carter negotiations while people on the right believe the Iranians were a little bit afraid of what Reagan might do. Personally, I think it was probably a little bit of both.

[defenseman]

Great info, thanks Gaff! I still don't see where you dispute that Iran attacked us. Embassies are the sovereign territory of the nation they represent. Are you saying that because nobody was hurt, it doesn't really count? I certainly hope you're not going to justify them holding our guys for 440+ days while claiming the U.S. is criminal in holding people in Guantanamo.

Unfortunately Gaff, and it's nothing against you - it's obvious that I won't ever agree with you or Bronco Bob because I refuse to believe that everything about America is bad or evil. I see us as more a force of good in the world than bad.

Hey stuck in texas, listen up. Here's the deal, yes embassies are sovereign, that fact has existed for years, I'm not so sure you'll get anyone to buy into that though. Fact is, move on a foreign embassy it can be construed as an act of war. Second, it's OK for them to screw with us, but it's not OK for us to be proactive. Lots out there think "we got it coming" due to our foreign policy and used it to justify "standing down" when we are attacked and our embassy folks taken hostage. Bottom line is you'll never win the argument, you are wasting your time with some of these guys.....dman

*But, we move on ANYONE, for ANY reason, and I gaurantee you WE will be wrong, no matter what the circumstances, because we are the bad guys in much of the world, let alone many of our countryman. Hypocrisy at it's best.

[mhgaffney]

it's obvious that I won't ever agree with you or Bronco Bob because I refuse to believe that everything about America is bad or evil. I see us as more a force of good in the world than bad.


How I wish you were correct about the US being a force for good in the world. I used to believe that, like you. But today I know different. It's been a bitter pill -- and a deeply disillusioning experience to learn the ugly truth.

When you finish Kinzer's book ALL THE SHAH'S MEN I suggest you check out Daniele Ganser's book NATO'S SECRET ARMIES -- how the US CIA and British MI-6 organized a terrorist network in every European nation after WW II.

They were known as the stay behind armies -- and they were supposed to be the nucleus of a military resistance in the event the USSR invaded Europe. As we know, that never happened.

What did happen is this secret military network, which included former Nazis in Germany, members of the Mafia in Italy, and in other countries various ultra right groups and criminal elements.

The US was worried that left wing parties in Italy, FRance, Greece and other European states would win honest elections. And so the CIA and NATO used this secret army to subvert democracy -- How?

Bombings, assassinations, kidnappings, street violence, which were blamed on the left, smear campaigns, misinformation -- in short, all of the same terrorist activities we accuse Al Qaeda of...

This terror network was responsible for numerous coup attempts in France, Italy and Greece -- and also Turkey. There were 4 coup attempts in France alone -- again which were blamed on the communists. When Charles de Gaulle discovered what the CIA was doing he pulled France out of NATO. The US had to move NATO headquarters from Paris to Brussels.

The CIA rewarded de Gaulle for his independence by trying to assassinate him more than a dozen times. Fortunately, none succeeded --

The US kept this massive covert operation secret for 45 years -- until it finally leaked out in Europe in 1990, during the buildup for Desert Storm. It caused a huge scandal across Europe -- but to this day has never even been reported by the US press.

Because the US press is incapable of self criticism. -- the American people remain uninformed. It is disgraceful.

Moreover, this was no fluke. The US has been doing the same kind of covert activity all over the world since WW II -- subverting democratic institutions and supporting tyrants like the Shah in Iran, Pinochet (in Chile) Noriega (in Panama), Somoza (in Nicaragua), Marcos (in the Phillipines), Suharto (in Indonesia) and many many others -- in order to control the flow of oil/resources.

Sad to say it's the truth. I am not anti American, I am anti US foreign policy. We need to change the way we do business -- and start living up to our principles.

You need to wake up to what is happening.

[W*GS]

Yep, gaffney's right - we all need to read his book.

I understand it's for sale, cheap, at Amazon.

[Garcia Bronco]

Yep, gaffney's right - we all need to read his book.

I understand it's for sale, cheap, at Amazon.

I'd rather read Harry Potter

[mhgaffney]

I'd rather read Harry Potter

You said it.

[W*GS]

I am not anti American, I am anti US foreign policy.

You're anti-Jew.

[broncocalijohn]

We hired Nazi's from Germany because they knew how to hold off Russia in Germany. Remember, Russia controlled half of Germany and Germans hated Russia in WW2. It is happening with BAATH party officials coming back to power In Iraq. You see all the Persians in the US now? Ask them why they left. When the crazy Muslims took control, they left. Of course a small percentage were Iranian Jews so of course McGaffney loved them getting the hell out of his beloved, adopted country.

[mhgaffney]

Hey stuck in texas, listen up. Here's the deal, yes embassies are sovereign, that fact has existed for years, I'm not so sure you'll get anyone to buy into that though. Fact is, move on a foreign embassy it can be construed as an act of war. Second, it's OK for them to screw with us, but it's not OK for us to be proactive. Lots out there think "we got it coming" due to our foreign policy and used it to justify "standing down" when we are attacked and our embassy folks taken hostage. Bottom line is you'll never win the argument, you are wasting your time with some of these guys.....dman
.

Except when WE do it right, D Man?

Did you forget that we bombed the Chinese embassy during the 1999 campaign in Yugoslavia -- and killed many Chinese? Or maybe you are ignorant and just never knew.

Oh, and our ally Israel bombed the Russian embassy in Beirut when they were reducing that city to dust in 1982 -- just to show their contempt --

Of course by your standards that doesn't count either...

This is the problem with you flag waving hypocrites. You scream bloody murder at someone else -- then turn a blind eye at our own crimes (and those of Israel).

This is why we are hated in the world today.

[yavoon]

Except when WE do it right, D Man?

Did you forget that we bombed the Chinese embassy during the 1999 campaign in Yugoslavia -- and killed many Chinese? Or maybe you are ignorant and just never knew.

Oh, and our ally Israel bombed the Russian embassy in Beirut when they were reducing that city to dust in 1982 -- just to show their contempt --

Of course by your standards that doesn't count either...

This is the problem with you flag waving hypocrites. You scream bloody murder at someone else -- then turn a blind eye at our own crimes (and those of Israel).

This is why we are hated in the world today.

if only the evil satan zionists would stop supporting the lie of evolution. EXPOSE THE TRUTH GHAFFS!

[mhgaffney]

All I've ever said is we must hold ourselves to the same standard that we hold for others.

Of course Bush refuses -- he refused to participate in the international tribunal, for example. It is a great idea -- long overdue -- but given the Bush administration's many crimes our leaders know they could face being indicted and tried as war criminals. Which is why Bush pisses on the world court and in fact makes a show of it -- strutting around like a he-man -- to impress chumps like you.

Obviously you are not using the intel the Creator gave you -- or you would see through the double standard.

[yavoon]

All I've ever said is we must hold ourselves to the same standard that we hold for others.

Of course Bush refuses -- he refused to participate in the international tribunal, for example. It is a great idea -- long overdue -- but given the Bush administration's many crimes our leaders know they could face being indicted and tried as war criminals. Which is why Bush pisses on the world court and in fact makes a show of it -- strutting around like a he-man -- to impress chumps like you.

Obviously you are not using the intel the Creator gave you -- or you would see through the double standard.

TAKE DOWN THE ZIONIST PLOT OF EVOLUTION!

what better place than here? what better time than now?

[W*GS]

This is the problem with you flag waving hypocrites. You scream bloody murder at someone else -- then turn a blind eye at our own crimes (and those of Israel).

You're no less hypocritical - you scream bloody murder at US crimes (and especially those of Israel) but conveniently overlook the more-frequent more-heinous crimes of others. You even excuse those crimes.

When you come out and simply admit to being a US-hater and Jew-hater, you'll be less of an ass just for 'fessing up.

[mhgaffney]

You're no less hypocritical - you scream bloody murder at US crimes (and especially those of Israel) but conveniently overlook the more-frequent more-heinous crimes of others. You even excuse those crimes.


We have been discussing the Mideast, esp. Iran and Iraq. So what great crimes did these nations perpetrate against the USA??

Can you name even one?

You'll have to do a lot better than the siezure of the US embassy in 1979 -- after we armed the Shah and trained his secret police. In fact, there was a reason for that takeover of the US embassy. The Iranians were afraid the US Colossus would invade them again and reinstall the Shah.

The embassy siezure was their insurance policy. It was a message to Washington: DON'T MEDDLE AGAIN! STAY OUT!

Who can blame them?

Today there are exactly zero nuclear weapons in the Arab world -- and none in Iran. The ones who have the nukes -- and who are holding the entire world hostage -- live in Washington and Tel Aviv.

Bush has more destructive power at his fingertips than all of the tyrants in human history -- combined. Israel's nukes are aimed at every city in the region.

But of course you W*gs are a shill for power -- the only thing that impresses you. How sad.

[yavoon]

We have been discussing the Mideast, esp. Iran and Iraq. So what great crimes did these nations perpetrate against the USA??

Can you name even one?

You'll have to do a lot better than the siezure of the US embassy in 1979 -- after we armed the Shah and trained his secret police. In fact, there was a reason for that takeover of the US embassy. The Iranians were afraid the US Colossus would invade them again and reinstall the Shah.

The embassy siezure was their insurance policy. It was a message to Washington: DON'T MEDDLE AGAIN! STAY OUT!

Who can blame them?

Today there are exactly zero nuclear weapons in the Arab world -- and none in Iran. The ones who have the nukes -- and who are holding the entire world hostage -- live in Washington and Tel Aviv.

Bush has more destructive power at his fingertips than all of the tyrants in human history -- combined. Israel's nukes are aimed at every city in the region.

But of course you W*gs are a shill for power -- the only thing that impresses you. How sad.

so now hateful impotence is a virtue. u get better all the time ghaff's!

STOP THE ZIONIST EVOLUTION CONSPIRACY!

[W*GS]

In fact, there was a reason for that takeover of the US embassy. The Iranians were afraid the US Colossus would invade them again and reinstall the Shah.

That's an easy rationalization. Coming from you, I doubt it's even close to the truth. That the Shah was dying made it rather clear that the US couldn't re-install him if it wanted to - and don't forget that the US didn't support and arm the Shah just to be vile - there was a fellow next door who was a client of the USSR. A game of war-by-proxy, certainly, but you're like so many BAFers in that you depict US actions as taking place in a vacuum. They do not.

Bush has more destructive power at his fingertips than all of the tyrants in human history -- combined.

So does Putin. Carter had even more destructive power than Bush does.

Israel's nukes are aimed at every city in the region.

Probably has something to do with the millions in the region who'd like to see Israel destroyed. From your point of view, it's just more Jewish evil.

But of course you W*gs are a shill for power -- the only thing that impresses you. How sad.

I "shill" for no-one - but I do call 'em as I sees 'em, and you, gaffney, are playing the BAFer Jew-hating playbook right down the line.

[mhgaffney]

That the Shah was dying made it rather clear that the US couldn't re-install him if it wanted to - and don't forget that the US didn't support and arm the Shah just to be vile - there was a fellow next door who was a client of the USSR. A game of war-by-proxy, certainly, but you're like so many BAFers in that you depict US actions as taking place in a vacuum. They do not.



The US can always find some tinhorn dictator or tyrant to do our bidding. If not the Shah, then someone else. The only requirement from Washington's point of view is that he be useful to us. The Iranians were correct to fear another US invasion in 1979.

You say Saddam was a client of the USSR. No, you have a muddled understanding of the history of this period. Saddam was like N Korea in the sense that he was completely opportunistic -- totally amoral -- maneuvering between the US and USSR -- for whatever he could get.

This was perfectly OK with Washington so long as they perceived Saddam as a bulwark against the Iranian revolution. Cheney and Rumsfeld were instrumental in the US removing Iraq from the State Department's list of terrorist states. I believe this was around 1982.

At this point in time Saddam became our boy. Under Reagan we showered all manner of trade and aid upon him.

We didn't care that he murdered his own people. We didn't care that he used nerve gas against the Iranians. Hell, that was the whole idea --- to weaken Iran. Rumsfeld and the neo cons even provided Saddam with the materiel and expertise to make the chemical weapons and get it done.

Of course, later, when it looked like Saddam might win, we also gave arms to the other side. It was called Iran contra gate. Remember?

This was an evil policy -- to help them kill each other. So evil in fact that the American leaders who were responsible (Cheney, Oliver North, Poindexter, Rumsfeld, Colin Powell, Richard Armitage, on and on and on) should have been prosecuted for war crimes and put in prison.

By this point Reagan was already into his Alzheimer's and should have been declared unfit for office and retired -- early.

But ultimately the American people must bear the responsibility. I spoke out against this mad policy at the time -- but most Americans didn't even know it was happening. Hell, I would bet that most wouldn't have been able to find the countries on the map.

That's the true abysmal state of our awareness as a nation about the world we live in. Nor has it changed in the years since. The fact that 50% of Americans still believe Iraq was behind 9/11 shows just how effective the propaganda machine is at brainwashing the public.

The only difference today is that now they are targetting Iran instead of Iraq. Demonizing the Iranians to whip up support for another war.

This is the face of evil on this earth.

And W*gs falls for the lies and deception every time because he has no morals himself. He worships power and especially those who have it.

[ak1971]

Im pretty sure MH and LaBarF are roomates/lovers/one and the same


he/she/it wont see a Broncos game this year, thats for sure

heres my 'mini nuke'

he/she/it disappears due to a death in the family and this crap pot show up

[W*GS]

You say Saddam was a client of the USSR.

How else do you rationalize the massive amount of Soviet military hardware he had at his disposal? Saddam was also tight with the Germans and French - which explains why when Israel destroyed the Osiraq reactor, the only fatality was a French technician. Of course, Israel was in the wrong, correct?

Saddam was like N Korea in the sense that he was completely opportunistic -- totally amoral -- maneuvering between the US and USSR -- for whatever he could get.

Neither Kim Il Sung nor Kim Jong Il have ever been an ally of the US. Thus your analogy is wholly wrong.

Demonizing the Iranians to whip up support for another war.

If anyone is demonizing anyone, it's the Iranian leadership, who are using the incident with the Brit sailors to attempt to unify their crumbling control of the Iranian people.

This is the face of evil on this earth.

More evil than the aforementioned Kim Jong Il? More evil than Mugabe? More evil than any number of other dictators and scumbags?

And W*gs falls for the lies and deception every time because he has no morals himself. He worships power and especially those who have it.

I'm a libertarian, you ass. I despise those who abuse power, and, to make that abuse much less likely, desire to keep power diffuse and as minimal as possible. You're reaching, and you know it.

As for my morals, I'll stack them against yours any day. At least I don't cuddle up to terrorist organizations and rationalize anti-Semitism...

[mhgaffney]

How else do you rationalize the massive amount of Soviet military hardware he had at his disposal? Saddam was also tight with the Germans and French - which explains why when Israel destroyed the Osiraq reactor, the only fatality was a French technician. Of course, Israel was in the wrong, correct?

If anyone is demonizing anyone, it's the Iranian leadership, who are using the incident with the Brit sailors to attempt to unify their crumbling control of the Iranian people.

At least I don't cuddle up to terrorist organizations and rationalize anti-Semitism...

You are really creative at missing the point. Somehow you always find a way to do it.

Here's the point: Ronnie Raygun was not in the least dismayed that Sadam was acquiring Soviet technology in the 1980s. As I said the neo cons removed Saddam from the official Sate Dept. list of terrorist states in 1982 so we could send him US weapons/aid to help him fight the Iranian revolution. And remember, Saddam was the agressor in that war -- so in supporting him the US was supporting aggression.

That's us, the land of the free and the home of the brave. Where were you at the time, W*Gsy? You the brave liberatarian. Were you speaking out against this travesty of a policy?

And as I said, when it looked like Saddam might win, we started arming Iran. We tried to hit two birds with one stone. Reagan tried an end run around the Boland ammendment by using Israel to smuggle arms for us --

so we could help Iran while also helping our terrorist army (the Contras) in central America to more efficiently destroy health clinics and schools in Nicaragua, a tiny nation that never did anything to us. Oh and by the way we also mined their harbors...

It was a case of state terrorism -- and we were the terrorists. Where were you at the time W*gsy? Did you speak out against it? If you supported Reagan you were supporting terrorism.

BTW, Nicaragua took their case to the world court and they won. The world court condemned the US for mining Nicaragua's harbors. Of course, Washington ignored it -- and the free US press never even reported it.

[W*GS]

You are really creative at missing the point. Somehow you always find a way to do it.

No comment on those filthy Jews destroying innocent Saddam's nuclear reactor, eh?

I never supported Reagan - and as a libertarian, I believe in a very strongly non-interventionist foreign policy. I was merely correcting your very one-sided view of US foreign policy. Indeed, most of your views are one-sided, more often than not the wrong side.

[Spider]

Hey Gaff , you really needed to ask mommy and Daddy before posting this one ...... I have not read 1 post on this thread , so I am sure this has been said , Afghanistan was a right , and just move , one of the few things Bush got right ...... Yes`questions needed to be asked of Tillman death , but Tillman died a heroes death ,no matter where the shot came from ......... Iraq= ****ed up little adventure of Bush
Afghanistan = War on terror , where we belong .......

[ak1971]

You are really creative at missing the point. Somehow you always find a way to do it.

Here's the point: Ronnie Raygun was not in the least dismayed that Sadam was acquiring Soviet technology in the 1980s. As I said the neo cons removed Saddam from the official Sate Dept. list of terrorist states in 1982 so we could send him US weapons/aid to help him fight the Iranian revolution. And remember, Saddam was the agressor in that war -- so in supporting him the US was supporting aggression.

That's us, the land of the free and the home of the brave. Where were you at the time, W*Gsy? You the brave liberatarian. Were you speaking out against this travesty of a policy?

And as I said, when it looked like Saddam might win, we started arming Iran. We tried to hit two birds with one stone. Reagan tried an end run around the Boland ammendment by using Israel to smuggle arms for us --

so we could help Iran while also helping our terrorist army (the Contras) in central America to more efficiently destroy health clinics and schools in Nicaragua, a tiny nation that never did anything to us. Oh and by the way we also mined their harbors...

It was a case of state terrorism -- and we were the terrorists. Where were you at the time W*gsy? Did you speak out against it? If you supported Reagan you were supporting terrorism.

BTW, Nicaragua took their case to the world court and they won. The world court condemned the US for mining Nicaragua's harbors. Of course, Washington ignored it -- and the free US press never even reported it.

so who was MLB for the Broncos last year? oh yeah do you have a place I can buy a storm trooper boots?