The Schaub trade and what we can learn from it

[Jens1893]

Generating value with QBs seems to be **** easy in the NFL and the Schaub trade kinda opened my eyes and made me wonder if we couldn´t do this ourselves?

The Texans just paid an absolute ransom for a career backup who once looked good in a start v New England, but nobody knows how he´s gonna handle the pressure of being THE GUY. Being a backup QB is rather "easy" as you´ve basically got nothing to lose when you come in. Most people think the team is screwed when the star QB goes down, so there isn´t a whole load of pressure on you to perform, most people just expect you to not screw it up. There have been quite a few guys who shone as backups, were traded for pretty high draft picks and then couldn´t handle the pressure of being the full time starter. Anyway, this kinda makes me wonder if we shouldn´t maybe a take a flyer on a QB in the sixth round, develop him for a few years and then hope to trade him for something valuable in 2-3 years? And, yes, I do know that we have Jay Cutler and Patrick Ramsey at QB already and I also know that stuff like this cannot be planned, but it just makes me wonder. Flame away. :)

[GonzoLays]

Generating value with QBs seems to be **** easy in the NFL and the Schaub trade kinda opened my eyes and made me wonder if we couldn´t do this ourselves?

The Texans just paid an absolute ransom for a career backup who once looked good in a start v New England, but nobody knows how he´s gonna handle the pressure of being THE GUY. Being a backup QB is rather "easy" as you´ve basically got nothing to lose when you come in. Most people think the team is screwed when the star QB goes down, so there isn´t a whole load of pressure on you to perform, most people just expect you to not screw it up. There have been quite a few guys who shone as backups, were traded for pretty high draft picks and then couldn´t handle the pressure of being the full time starter. Anyway, this kinda makes me wonder if we shouldn´t maybe a take a flyer on a QB in the sixth round, develop him for a few years and then hope to trade him for something valuable in 2-3 years? And, yes, I do know that we have Jay Cutler and Patrick Ramsey at QB already and I also know that stuff like this cannot be planned, but it just makes me wonder. Flame away. :)

I present exhibit A:

Jarius Jackson 7th round

Exhibit B:

Matt Mauck 7th round

Exhibit C:

Bradlee Van Pelt 7th Round

Exhibit D:

Shaun Moore 7th round

Anymore questions?

[Taco John]

Prediction: this turns into a Plummer thread within 25 posts

[Paladin]

Coulda traded Plummer for a second......

[Master___Pain]

Prediction: this turns into a Plummer thread within 25 posts

or 3.....

[cutthemdown]

I present exhibit A:

Jarius Jackson 7th round

Exhibit B:

Matt Mauck 7th round

Exhibit C:

Bradlee Van Pelt 7th Round

Exhibit D:

Shaun Moore 7th round

Anymore questions?

Don't forget Jeff Lewis who we got a 3rd round pick for from Panthers. I don't remember where we drafted him at though.

[-Slap-]

Quarterbacks have always been overvalued, although, I believe Schaub will be a good one and the price Houston paid was reasonable.

Here's a picture that should make the old timers break out in a cold sweat.

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/4630/mattrobinson3mn0.jpg

[Jens1893]

How about this guy, Slappy?
http://images.nfl.com/images/nfleurope/week32/22112000_scott.jpg

[TexanBob]

Slap, Matt Robinson is exactly the guy I was thinking. Led the Jets to a great comeback at Mile High back in the early 80s (before Elway) and we traded a #1 (IIRC) to get him as our starter. Didn't last a year.

[Beantown Bronco]

Broncos should've traded Bubby Brister back in the day....his solid performances when Elway was hurt would've equated to 2 first rounders if we're using the "Schaub test".

[KipCorrington25]

We've got other things to worry about then trying to build some 7th rounder into a commodity we might be able to trade in a few years.

[WoodMan]

Schaub was an excellent college QB at Virginia, I think. He broke most of the passing records at that school and many in the ACC. He was drafted by Atlanta as their backup to Vick and wasn't going to get a chance, so he wanted out. I think he definitely has the ability to be an effective QB in the league and has had the benefit of learning from the sideline for a couple of years. Kubiak is a good QB coach andf shopuld be able to teach him alot. He is young, talented, and wants a chance to play. I don't think a second is too much to take a chance on him. I would have liked to see him come here pre-Ramsey, but he would have cost too much and wanted to start.

[Jens1893]

Schaub was an excellent college QB at Virginia, I think. He broke most of the passing records at that school and many in the ACC. He was drafted by Atlanta as their backup to Vick and wasn't going to get a chance, so he wanted out. I think he definitely has the ability to be an effective QB in the league and has had the benefit of learning from the sideline for a couple of years. Kubiak is a good QB coach andf shopuld be able to teach him alot. He is young, talented, and wants a chance to play. I don't think a second is too much to take a chance on him. I would have liked to see him come here pre-Ramsey, but he would have cost too much and wanted to start.

He cost the Texans 2 second rounders and they also swapped first rounders with Atlanta.

[BroncoInferno]

The Texans just paid an absolute ransom for a career backup who once looked good in a start v New England, but nobody knows how he´s gonna handle the pressure of being THE GUY.

Why are Russell and Quinn (potentially) worth top 10 selections when neither has played a single snap in the NFL or proven they can be THE GUY, but giving up a 2nd rounder for a 25 year old who has actually shown some potential in an NFL game and has spent a few seasons studying the complexitites of an NFL offense and how to attack an NFL defense is paying "an absolute king's ransom?" Sounds like a coup for Houston, to me. Atlanta will regret choosing Ron Mexico over Schaub. It won't be quite as bad as trading Favre for a 1st, but it won't look good, either.

[Northman]

Schaub was an excellent college QB at Virginia, I think. He broke most of the passing records at that school and many in the ACC. He was drafted by Atlanta as their backup to Vick and wasn't going to get a chance, so he wanted out. I think he definitely has the ability to be an effective QB in the league and has had the benefit of learning from the sideline for a couple of years. Kubiak is a good QB coach andf shopuld be able to teach him alot. He is young, talented, and wants a chance to play. I don't think a second is too much to take a chance on him. I would have liked to see him come here pre-Ramsey, but he would have cost too much and wanted to start.



Right on the money and i totally agree with you. Schaub is worth what they gave up for him.

[Mountain Bronco]

Wasn't nearly as cheap as one second rounder. It was two second rounders (1 is high second round the other likely will be also) and Houston moving down in the first round. That is quite a bit.

[kmartin575]

This just probably upped the value for Trent Green. I think the Chiefs will get a 4th round pick out of Green, similar to what the Broncos would have gotten for Plummer and what the Titans got for McNair.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

This just probably upped the value for Trent Green. I think the Chiefs will get a 4th round pick out of Green, similar to what the Broncos would have gotten for Plummer and what the Titans got for McNair.

No one around here gives a s**t.

[WoodMan]

I didn't realize they gave up two seconds. I thought it was just one. Swapping #8 and #10 is a bit of a trade down for Houston but not much. The Texans will also get something out for Carr, so I would still make the trade, since Schaub was who they wanted. This years second and next years second seems fair to me.

[kmartin575]

No one around here gives a s**t.

But you give a **** about the Schaub trade because it has so much to do with Denver, right?

Get over yourself. You guys are posting Chiefs news all the time over here. I'm not being a dick or talking trash so I don't understand any contempt towards me.

[Jens1893]

But you give a **** about the Schaub trade because it has so much to do with Denver, right?

Get over yourself. You guys are posting Chiefs news all the time over here. I'm not being a dick or talking trash so I don't understand any contempt towards me.

Our board, our rules. We discuss what we want here. Live with it.

[Falconfan]

How about this guy, Slappy?
http://images.nfl.com/images/nfleurope/week32/22112000_scott.jpg

That's the lefty right, what was his name?

Some of us wanted Schaubto start but he was unproven, totally unproven. We made out like Bandits I think.

[kmartin575]

Our board, our rules. We discuss what we want here. Live with it.

And unless I am banned I am going to post whatever I want. Live with it.

[Jens1893]

That's the lefty right, what was his name?

Some of us wanted Schaubto start but he was unproven, totally unproven. We made out like Bandits I think.

Scott Mitchell.

And I do think you raped them also.

[Jens1893]

And unless I am banned I am going to post whatever I want. Live with it.

Wonderful, but don´t come crying when someone takes a shot.

[fatcard]

Personally, i've been dying to see what shaub can do. I think he's got a LOT of talent. Perhaps more than anyone the texans could have drafted this season. Houston is going places this year.

[Northman]

Personally, i've been dying to see what shaub can do. I think he's got a LOT of talent. Perhaps more than anyone the texans could have drafted this season. Houston is going places this year.


Although i agree this will be a huge upgrade they will still need to get better protection. But overall Schaub and Johnson will be connecting on a lot of passes in the future. :wiggle:

[footstepsfrom#27]

If Schaub were all that he'd have sent Vick packing by now. I was willing to give Kubes a pass on the draft last year with the thought that Mario Williams turns into Reggie White II and plays for 14 years. After this move I have to say that so far at least I'm not impressed with his ability to handle the draft or his QB strategy. Also...If Kubes is so great with QB's we'd see them making it work with David Carr instead of moving on to another guy with no NFL experience as a starter.

Right now I'm wondering if Kubes just rode Shanny's coat tails all this time and more to the point, might he replace the Skins as a potential sucker for one of Shanny's trades.

[Northman]

If Schaub were all that he'd have sent Vick packing by now. I was willing to give Kubes a pass on the draft last year with the thought that Mario Williams turns into Reggie White II and plays for 14 years. After this move I have to say that so far at least I'm not impressed with his ability to handle the draft or his QB strategy. Also...If Kubes is so great with QB's we'd see them making it work with David Carr instead of moving on to another guy with no NFL experience as a starter.

Right now I'm wondering if Kubes just rode Shanny's coat tails all this time and more to the point, might he replace the Skins as a potential sucker for one of Shanny's trades.


Obviously you havent paid that much attention then. Had Mora still been in Atlanta he most likely would have done something with Vick. Vick was on thin ice there for a while but then Mora got axed. Schaub has far better mechanics than Vick and far better accuracy. Vick is a great athlete but not a very good Qb overall. But ill do you one better, if Schaub was such a scrub than why didnt Atlanta try to trade him a year or so ago? After Matt's game against NE a lot teams drew interests for him yet Atlanta would not let him go.

They were not sure Vick would be their man but the new coach likes him and decided to move Schaub and get something for him while he still could. As someone already mentioned, this is a good move for both teams. Bottom line is, Atlanta had two Qbs worth trade value but one of them is coveted in Atlanta therefore the new coach made a choice to move one in order to help the other. Houston still has a lot of work to do but im my opinion have already made a upgrade at Qb. I do agree with you though on the Williams pick, bad move.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Obviously you havent paid that much attention then. Had Mora still been in Atlanta he most likely would have done something with Vick. Vick was on thin ice there for a while but then Mora got axed. Schaub has far better mechanics than Vick and far better accuracy. Vick is a great athlete but not a very good Qb overall. But ill do you one better, if Schaub was such a scrub than why didnt Atlanta try to trade him a year or so ago? After Matt's game against NE a lot teams drew interests for him yet Atlanta would not let him go.

They were not sure Vick would be their man but the new coach likes him and decided to move Schaub and get something for him while he still could. As someone already mentioned, this is a good move for both teams. Bottom line is, Atlanta had two Qbs worth trade value but one of them is coveted in Atlanta therefore the new coach made a choice to move one in order to help the other. Houston still has a lot of work to do but im my opinion have already made a upgrade at Qb. I do agree with you though on the Williams pick, bad move.
Matt Schaub has done nothing in the NFL to justify the hype he's getting.

[BroncoInferno]

Matt Schaub has done nothing in the NFL to justify the hype he's getting.

What have guys like Russell and Quinn (or plug in any potential rookie QB) done to get their hype? If they are worth top 10 selections, why isn't a guy who's at least shown potential in an actual NFL game?

[BroncoInferno]

If Schaub were all that he'd have sent Vick packing by now.

You're crazy if you think Arthur Blank is going to let anyone shelve his $120 million investment.

[-Slap-]

Your crazy if you think Arthur Blank is going to let anyone shelve his $120 million investment.

The notion is so far beyond stupid, you have to simply consider the source.

[The Moops]

This kind of thing goes way back. Years ago, Marino's backup had 1 great game. So the Lions signed him to a big FA contract. His name, Scott Mitchell.

A few years later The Jag's backup had a couple big games. So the Bills gave him a huge FA contract. His name, Rob Johnson.

The 49ers backup had a big game against the Cowboys. The Chiefs had to have him. His name, Elvis Grbac. Later, the Ravens gave up Dilfer for him.

Of course, for every one of these stories there's a Jake Delhomme story.

[chrisp]

This kind of thing goes way back. Years ago, Marino's backup had 1 great game. So the Lions signed him to a big FA contract. His name, Scott Mitchell.

A few years later The Jag's backup had a couple big games. So the Bills gave him a huge FA contract. His name, Rob Johnson.

The 49ers backup had a big game against the Cowboys. The Chiefs had to have him. His name, Elvis Grbac. Later, the Ravens gave up Dilfer for him.

Of course, for every one of these stories there's a Jake Delhomme story.

Actually, I think the ratio is more like in yor post. For every FOUR of those stories there's ONE Jake Delhomme story:wiggle: .

I actually think that Kubiak's lost the plot a little with this move, unless he makes drastic, ovewhelming upgrades to the pass-protection. He could have had Jake for less than he's just given up and he would have been a better fit; able to make them competitive without drastic improvements in the pass-protection due to his mobility.

Now Kubes has had to give up two 2nds and flip-flop 1sts to get a guy who

a) may or may not be the real deal over the course of a full season,

and

b) will need decent protection to perform in any case.

I think he was determined not to get ass-raped by Shanny on the first go-around, so he played hardball and lost, meaning he had to bend over backwards for option #2.

If this guy turns out to be a player and if Kubes can significantly upgrade the pass protection it will all have been worth it. But if either of those things don't happen, that 2nd next year is really gonna sting (if he's still around to NOT make the pick).....

[DrFate]

Right on the money and i totally agree with you. Schaub is worth what they gave up for him.

Then irony is a lot of Falcons fans think their team traded the wrong QB. :)

(sorry Garcia)

[The Moops]

I may be the only one, but I still think the Texans shouldn't give up on Carr yet. Since joining the team he's been sacked more times than Paris Hilton. He had Dom Capers as his coach for the first 4 years. No real offensive help, blocking or otherwise...

Terry Bradshaw was considered a bust until midway through his 5th season...

[MileHighMania]

I think Carr needs a change of scenery and if he can be in an offense with protection, who knows what might happen. Schaub... well, get some extra padding for your back.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

I think Carr needs a change of scenery and if he can be in an offense with protection, who knows what might happen. Schaub... well, get some extra padding for your back.

I agree. Carr has the skills, but I think his spirit is broken and of course he has taken too many hits. I think he needs to go someplace with a good QB coach and be a backup for a year. He could get that year of sitting on the bench he should have had as a rookie. Let him catch his breath and get his head screwed back on correctly and I think he can be a pretty good NFL QB.

[Master___Pain]

To me it seems that the Texans traded for a slightly less mobile version of David Carr. I think Carr and a change of scenery may be exactly what he needs and he'll be able to revive his career.

[Arkansas Bronco]

What I have learned from this trade is that Atlanta want no part of a QB and are quite content playing the wishbone.

[Jay6Cutler]

Are you kidding me schaub has 2 count them 2 starts in the nfl with 6TD 6INT. i would take Quinn over Schaub in a hart beat. whats im not even a Quinn fan. i have visions of S. Michell, R. Johnson, and the guy the fins gave a 2nd rd pick for i cant think of his name.

[footstepsfrom#27]

You're crazy if you think Arthur Blank is going to let anyone shelve his $120 million investment.
Actually it's quite a bit less than that now since they've already paid him a sizeable chunk of his guaranteed money, I believe over $30 million...but I get your point...his salary cap hit is allegedly $23 million for 2007. Of course the new CBA agreement that jumped the 2007 salary cap up $17 million from 2005 would automatically take care of most of that, but I get your point there too...because obviouslly no team would ever trade a player they had a lot invested in.

Oh...wait...;D

Well no team would ever trade or cut a highly overpaid starting QB, especially one whose won a lot of games for them in the past, plus take a nasty cap hit just to give some wonderkid on the bench a shot at the job.

Oh...wait...;D

OK...no team would be able to sign their other players or draft choices if they started making moves that put them behind the 8 ball salary cap-wise...and there's no way they'd be able to sign any free agents either, since there's no way they could ever find a way to to restructure those contracts.

Oh...wait...;D

When Vicks contract runs out in 2015, at the current rate of increase, the NFL salary cap will be nearly double what it is right now, and even his deal will likely look reasonable by the new standards. Will he be there collecting it at age 35? Probably not...meaning sometime between now and then he'll be traded or cut like any other player.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Vick will be wearing the uniform of Blank's other business, Home Depot, within a couple of years.

[Jens1893]

Vick will be wearing the uniform of Blank's other business, Home Depot, within a couple of years.

Marcus?

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Hi, I'm Ron Mexico. Could I help you load that bag of fertilizer in your car mam?

[BroncoInferno]

Actually it's quite a bit less than that now since they've already paid him a sizeable chunk of his guaranteed money, I believe over $30 million...but I get your point...his salary cap hit is allegedly $23 million for 2007. Of course the new CBA agreement that jumped the 2007 salary cap up $17 million from 2005 would automatically take care of most of that, but I get your point there too...because obviouslly no team would ever trade a player they had a lot invested in.

Oh...wait...;D

Well no team would ever trade or cut a highly overpaid starting QB, especially one whose won a lot of games for them in the past, plus take a nasty cap hit just to give some wonderkid on the bench a shot at the job.

Oh...wait...;D

OK...no team would be able to sign their other players or draft choices if they started making moves that put them behind the 8 ball salary cap-wise...and there's no way they'd be able to sign any free agents either, since there's no way they could ever find a way to to restructure those contracts.

Oh...wait...;D

When Vicks contract runs out in 2015, at the current rate of increase, the NFL salary cap will be nearly double what it is right now, and even his deal will likely look reasonable by the new standards. Will he be there collecting it at age 35? Probably not...meaning sometime between now and then he'll be traded or cut like any other player.

The financial commitment made to Plummer was not even in the same league as the one made to Vick.

[footstepsfrom#27]

The financial commitment made to Plummer was not even in the same league as the one made to Vick.
Doesn't matter... NFL teams find ways to free up money if they feel they have to. Denver had one of the worst cap situation in the league coming into this offseason. Did you think they'd be a major player in free agency? Nobody expected that.

Back to my original point though...what exactly has Schaub ever done to justify the hype he's getting? College kids get hyped based on their potential, which is all future tense...even though people know a lot of them won't pan out, which explains the Calvin Johnson/Adrian Peterson buzz.

What's Matt Schaub done but sit on the bench and put up mediocre numbers as a backup? The correct answer is nothing.

[BroncoInferno]

Doesn't matter... NFL teams find ways to free up money if they feel they have to.

Vick signed his blockbuster only a couple of seasons ago. The base salary is malleable, yes, but not the bonus. They still owe over $20 million on the cap towards his bonus, which would accelerate the moment they traded or released him. If you think a team would just eat that type of money only two years into a deal you just flat don't know what you're talking about. No team has ever gotten rid of a player with that type of massive cap hit as a consequence.

Denver had one of the worst cap situation in the league coming into this offseason. Did you think they'd be a major player in free agency? Nobody expected that.

I don't see how this is in anyway relevant to the $20 million plus cap hit the Falcons would take by getting rid of Vick. There is NOTHING they can do to erase that cap debt. What player did Denver get rid of who resulted in even half the hit hanging over the Falcons? Plummer's cap hit is a pittance in comparison.

to my original point though...what exactly has Schaub ever done to justify the hype he's getting? College kids get hyped based on their potential, which is all future tense...even though people know a lot of them won't pan out, which explains the Calvin Johnson/Adrian Peterson buzz.

What's Matt Schaub done but sit on the bench and put up mediocre numbers as a backup? The correct answer is nothing.

If you really think Schaub ever received a legitimate opportunity to get off the bench and unseat Ron Mexico as the starter, you're nuts. Schaub has shown more than either Russell or Quinn and is only two or three years older than either. I'd rather give up a pair of 2nds for a guy who has shown promise in an actual NFL game and environment (i.e. studying an NFL playbook, studying NFL defenses, etc) than potentially blow a top 10 pick on even bigger question marks.

[Northman]

Matt Schaub has done nothing in the NFL to justify the hype he's getting.


Well, Jay, Matt, and Vince got big contracts before they even played a down. Its all based on potential. Teams got interested in Schaub because he gave them a taste of the potential he holds. Now, you may feel that Houston gave up the farm for him but they believe he can be a difference maker there. Nothings ever guaranteed Foot. Jay gets a lot of hype too but he could very easily go in the tank next year or he could get a lot better. Unfortuantely for you, there is a little more to back up Houston's move to get him than there is for you to think he will fail or isnt worth it.

[Northman]

If you really think Schaub ever received a legitimate opportunity to get off the bench and unseat Ron Mexico as the starter, you're nuts. Schaub has shown more than either Russell or Quinn and is only two or three years older than either. I'd rather give up a pair of 2nds for a guy who has shown promise in an actual NFL game and environment (i.e. studying an NFL playbook, studying NFL defenses, etc) than potentially blow a top 10 pick on even bigger question marks.


Rep

[phisig150]

We learned that whomever runs the Texans enrolled in the Al Davis school of Business.

[WoodMan]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2807996
Pa-squirrel-i says that Carr was sacked 249 times in 5 years. Calls him a dented used Carr:D Also says he was paid 35 million over those 5 years and won 4.4 games per year at an average of 1.6 million per win.ROFL! Where do I sign up to try out for the Texans. Hilarious! Funny but informative about who runs the farm down in Houston.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Vick signed his blockbuster only a couple of seasons ago. The base salary is malleable, yes, but not the bonus. They still owe over $20 million on the cap towards his bonus, which would accelerate the moment they traded or released him. If you think a team would just eat that type of money only two years into a deal you just flat don't know what you're talking about. No team has ever gotten rid of a player with that type of massive cap hit as a consequence.
And no team has done business before with a salary cap of $109 million either. Siince Vick has already been paid $29.5 million of the $37 million in guaranteed bonus money in 2005 and 2006, and since the new CBA allows for a sizeable increase in salary cap as well as the opportunity to pro-rate the bonus well past the previous 2010 date (when the old agreement expired) all the way to 2015, this is more doable than you think. The figures for his total cap hit (bonus+salary) are listed below by year under the new agreement. (Note that the new CBA schedule of payments cuts the cap hit by approximately $600k per year on the new schedule.) http://www.falcfans.com/players/michael_vick.html

Old CBA: $5.6 million (2005); $7.8 million (2006); $12.4 million (2007); $13.4 million (2008); $15.4 million (2009); $16.9 million (2010); $13.5 million (2011); $13 million (2012); $15 million (2013); and $17 million (2014).

New CBA: $7.178 million (2006); $11.778 million (2007); $12.778 million (2008); $14.778 million (2009); $16.278 million (2010); $14.278 million (2011); $13.778 million (2012); $15.778 million (2013); and $17.778 million (2014),

Vick's base salaries are: 2007, 2008 and 2009 are $6 million, $7 million and $9 million, and go to $10.5 million (2010), $13.5 million (2011), $13 million (2012), $15 million (2013) and $17 million (2014). Subtracting these base salary numbers from his cap hit numbers (bonus+salary) gives us actual guaranteed money of $5.778 million (2007), $6.778 million (2008), $5.778 million in 2009, $5.778 million in 2010, $778,000 in 2011, $778,000 in 2012, $778,000 in 2013 and $778,000 in 2014.

In other words, the cap hit for Vick, consisting of his pro-rated signing bonus for the years 2007-2010 is $6.028 million on average...about $2.6 million LESS than the 2007 cap hit for cutting Jake Plummer before June 1st or basically the same money they're paying Daniel Graham. The Falcons last I checked were about $6.8 million under the cap, but this figure INCLUDES VICK'S SALARY of $6 million in 2007 which they would not have to pay, meaning that cutting or trading Vick this year would leave them not $20 million as you said but only $14 million short. Could the Falcons free up $14 million in 2007? Obviously they could...Denver did...that equals what they're paying Graham, Henry and Ramsey and they started with the worst salary cap situation in the league. So the bottom line in terms of cutting Vick is that they would basically not be signing any free agents for the 2007 season in order to pay Vick's bonus off. Would you give up one year of signing other team's free agents in order to have the QB you really want instead of one you don't believe can win? No brainer...
If you really think Schaub ever received a legitimate opportunity to get off the bench and unseat Ron Mexico as the starter, you're nuts. Schaub has shown more than either Russell or Quinn and is only two or three years older than either.
Based on your logic that Schaub's meager NFL experience means he has shown more than the two guys expected to be the first two QB's taken in the draft, in spite of the fact he was a 3rd round choice...you could also conclude that Bradley Van Pelt has also shown more than Quinn or Russell. Would you swap those two 2nds for him as well? He's got NFL experience too.
I'd rather give up a pair of 2nds for a guy who has shown promise in an actual NFL game and environment (i.e. studying an NFL playbook, studying NFL defenses, etc) than potentially blow a top 10 pick on even bigger question marks.
So Schaub has shown promse because he started two games and studied the playbook...even though his play suggests he's been very average? That's why you'd rather have him than guys with the talent scouts see as top 10 picks? Good thing you're not the GM...Brandon Stokley over Calvin Johnson too I guess?

[footstepsfrom#27]

Well, Jay, Matt, and Vince got big contracts before they even played a down. Its all based on potential. Teams got interested in Schaub because he gave them a taste of the potential he holds. Now, you may feel that Houston gave up the farm for him but they believe he can be a difference maker there. Nothings ever guaranteed Foot. Jay gets a lot of hype too but he could very easily go in the tank next year or he could get a lot better. Unfortuantely for you, there is a little more to back up Houston's move to get him than there is for you to think he will fail or isnt worth it.
Cutler has superior talent to Schaub, and the 5 starts he had last year easily exceed the performance put up by Schaub...this in spite of the fact that Schaub has had more experience in the NFL. There's a reason Schaub went in the 3rd and Cutler in the top half of the 1st round.

Having said that, nowhere in this thread have I stated that I think Schaub will fail. I think the jury is out now and will remain out for the next seasoon or maybe two. What I've said is that he has not demonstrated he was worth the price paid for him based on his performance in the NFL. Certainly he's done nothing to warrant the big paycheck he'll now be getting. When you consider that mobility is not his strong suit and the way Carr got beat up, the odds are currently stacked against him if Houston does not drastically upgrade their O-line for him.

[BroncoInferno]

And no team has done business before with a salary cap of $109 million either. Siince Vick has already been paid $29.5 million of the $37 million in guaranteed bonus money in 2005 and 2006, and since the new CBA allows for a sizeable increase in salary cap as well as the opportunity to pro-rate the bonus well past the previous 2010 date (when the old agreement expired) all the way to 2015, this is more doable than you think. The figures for his total cap hit (bonus+salary) are listed below by year under the new agreement. (Note that the new CBA schedule of payments cuts the cap hit by approximately $600k per year on the new schedule.) http://www.falcfans.com/players/michael_vick.html

Old CBA: $5.6 million (2005); $7.8 million (2006); $12.4 million (2007); $13.4 million (2008); $15.4 million (2009); $16.9 million (2010); $13.5 million (2011); $13 million (2012); $15 million (2013); and $17 million (2014).

New CBA: $7.178 million (2006); $11.778 million (2007); $12.778 million (2008); $14.778 million (2009); $16.278 million (2010); $14.278 million (2011); $13.778 million (2012); $15.778 million (2013); and $17.778 million (2014),

Vick's base salaries are: 2007, 2008 and 2009 are $6 million, $7 million and $9 million, and go to $10.5 million (2010), $13.5 million (2011), $13 million (2012), $15 million (2013) and $17 million (2014). Subtracting these base salary numbers from his cap hit numbers (bonus+salary) gives us actual guaranteed money of $5.778 million (2007), $6.778 million (2008), $5.778 million in 2009, $5.778 million in 2010, $778,000 in 2011, $778,000 in 2012, $778,000 in 2013 and $778,000 in 2014.

In other words, the cap hit for Vick, consisting of his pro-rated signing bonus for the years 2007-2010 is $6.028 million on average...in other words about $2.6 million LESS than the 2007 cap hit for cutting Jake Plummer before June 1st or basically the same money they're paying Daniel Graham. The Falcons last I checked were about $6.8 million under the cap, but this figure INCLUDES VICK'S SALARY of $6 million in 2007 which they would not have to pay, meaning that cutting or trading Vick this year would leave them not $20 million as you said but only $14 million short. Could the Falcons free up $14 million in 2007? Obviously they could...Denver did...that equals what they're paying Graham, Henry and Ramsey and they started with the worst salary cap situation in the league. So the bottom line in terms of cutting Vick is that they would basically not be signing any free agents for the 2007 season in order to pay Vick's bonus off. Would you give up one year of signing other team's free agents in order to have the QB you really want instead of one you don't believe can win? No brainer...

Um, you cited the average of the bonus per year. You don't get to divvy it up that way unless the player is actually on the roster. If you release or trade the player, the ENTIRE amount of the remaining bonus is IMMEDIATELY accelerated to the cap. In this case, it would be in access of $20 million.

Based on your logic that Schaub's meager NFL experience means he has shown more than the two guys expected to be the first two QB's taken in the draft, in spite of the fact he was a 3rd round choice...you could also conclude that Bradley Van Pelt has also shown more than Quinn or Russell. Would you swap those two 2nds for him as well? He's got NFL experience too.

So Schaub has shown promse because he started two games and studied the playbook...even though he's play suggests he's been very average...so that's why you'd rather have him than guys with the talent scouts see as top 10 picks? Good thing you're not the GM...Brandon Stokley over Calvin Johnson too I guess?

Of course, you've never actually payed attention to Schaub when he played. You simply checked out his stats and drew a conclusion. He actually showed a lot of promise when he got on the field, displaying the kind of arm strength needed to make the NFL throws, showed good accuracy (yes, I know the completition % was not good...if you had actually watched the games he played you would understand the full context and all mitigating circumstances...as it is, you don't know a damn thing about him). Is he a sure thing? No. But he's no more a role of the dice than, say, Russell. Less, actually, since he doesn't cost a top 10 draft choice and has actual NFL experience to teams can evaluate. Glad we don't have a GM that makes assumptions based on limited knowledge.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Um, you cited the average of the bonus per year. You don't get to divvy it up that way unless the player is actually on the roster. If you release or trade the player, the ENTIRE amount of the remaining bonus is IMMEDIATELY accelerated to the cap. In this case, it would be in access of $20 million.
I only cited the average to draw a comparison. After subtracting Vick's salary from the guaranteed money still owed, the amount is $14 million.
Of course, you've never actually payed attention to Schaub when he played. You simply checked out his stats and drew a conclusion.
You're drawing the conclusion. I've seen him play.
Glad we don't have a GM that makes assumptions based on limited knowledge.
Right...because we all know that 2 NFL starts and 8 games where he threw more than 3 passes constitutes all the information needed to consider an NFL backup to be a better prospect than the projected top pick in the next draft...:thumbs:

[BroncoInferno]

I only cited the average to draw a comparison. After subtracting Vick's salary from the guaranteed money still owed, the amount is $14 million.

Go do your math again. Using your numbers: $6.778 plus $5.778 plus $5.778 plus $778,000(x4) equals $21.446 million. Every bit of that is accelerated to the cap if Vick were to be traded or released right now.

You're drawing the conclusion. I've seen him play.

Then you didn't pay attention or know what you were looking at. Not surprising.

Right...because we all know that 2 NFL starts and 8 games where he threw more than 3 passes constitutes all the information needed to consider an NFL backup to be a better prospect than the projected top pick in the next draft...:thumbs:

...who by comparison has 0 starts and 0 games in the NFL where he threw a single pass :thumbsup:

[footstepsfrom#27]

Then you didn't pay attention or know what you were looking at. Not surprising.

...who by comparison has 0 starts and 0 games in the NFL where he threw a single pass :thumbsup:
Tell ya what...this merry-go-round is going nowhere, and frankly I don't see the point in rehashing this over and over. You like Schaub and think he's shown he's worth the price and a better bet than top 5 talent in the draft and I don't.

We'll find out soon enough.

[BroncoInferno]

I'm not even saying that Schaub is a sure thing. I'm just saying that there are sound reasons for team in need of a young signal caller to feel it worth the risk to give up something of value for him. He could go the way of Rob Johnson, for sure. I'd rather blow a pair of 2nds than the #1 overall pick in the draft, though. The success rate isn't too encouraging when you look at 1st round QBs.

[backup qb]

I like Ron Wolf's old philosophy of drafting a qb every draft. He did it with Brunell, Brooks, Hasselbeck, etc. You then trade for decent value or develop and set up your franchise for continued success.