Blackwater

[enjolras]

I've run across this organization twice in the last two days, once on the radio and once in this web piece.

It's essentially a for-hire army that has raked in close to a billion dollars from the American government. They enjoy the ability to operate more or less independently of law (they have declared themselves above both civilian AND military law). Since they enjoy the ability to classify documents at the government level, they are nearly impossible to sue or otherwise hold accountable (although the families of 4 contractors killed in Iraq are making good progress in the courts). In short, they are an privatized military that operates largely without consequence.

I've had military buddies in Iraq (including a guy who does intelligence work) who have had run ins with these contractors. Apparently the contractors are tremendously aggressive, they are well known for preemptively shooting at Iraqi civilians well before they pose any kind of threat, they have been known to run Iraqi patrols off of roads... The military people I know have very little good to say about these contractors. And since they can't be court martialed and holding them accountable in civilian court is very difficult (because of classified information) there is very little anyone can do about it. They operate in our names and with our money, but they get to do it without fear of reprisal or accountability.

This raises a very interesting question to me. Is it in Americas best interest to invest our tax dollars in a private for-profit corporation that essentially competes with the United States military? Is giving military control to the private sector the best way to promote security both here and abroad? And if we are going to have this private military, do we hold them to the same standards (the uniform code of military justice for instance) that we hold our troops?

It's a fascinating topic. Here is a link to the article:

http://sanityforsale.wordpress.com/2007/03/18/blackwater-bushs-shadow-army/

[Rohirrim]

Mercenaries. It's what failing empires turn to when their own citizens no longer want to fight their wars.

[Bronco Bob]

Military guys always hate contractors because they get paid more for doing the
same work. When I was in the Navy we used to call them yardbirds. I'm sure
in retrospect that they were mostly decent guys with families to support.

[spdirty]

I can't stand that crap...and I remember when we had civilian contractors start to run the gates at military installations. If they want to make gov't money for doing the same stuff our troops are doing, they need to be under the UCMJ. Otherwise we should stop giving them money. Even treat them like military combatants if they don't stop ****ing up the mission.

A lot of em are prior military though.

[defenseman]

I can't stand that crap...and I remember when we had civilian contractors start to run the gates at military installations. If they want to make gov't money for doing the same stuff our troops are doing, they need to be under the UCMJ. Otherwise we should stop giving them money. Even treat them like military combatants if they don't stop ****ing up the mission.

A lot of em are prior military though.

Mercenaries, will always be employed by various govt's throughout the world. No getting rid of them, and there are some "bad guys" who these "mercs" can take care of for us...dman

[Rohirrim]

Let's forget for a moment that the idea of using mercenaries is against everything we (supposedly) stand for.

[defenseman]

Let's forget for a moment that the idea of using mercenaries is against everything we (supposedly) stand for.

I personally have no problems with employing "mercs", but that's just my humble opinion...dman

[bendog]

I personally have no problems with employing "mercs", but that's just my humble opinion...dman

Me neither, but using them to guard POWs at Abdul Grab was perhaps as bad as failing to secure Saddam's armories. Of course the notion of using US troops in Iraq was, and is, insane.

[defenseman]

I would employ "mercs" ensuring mission assignment entailed derailing the need for political correctness. In short, dirty work for individuals willing to do it, said work being politically sensitive of course...dman

[bendog]

For me it depends on where the dirty work is happening. For example, in the Phill's our special forces seem to work well with the local army v. muslim terrorists. But, in Somalia, there's really no local army to cooperate with. We can't invade everywhere.

As for Iraq ... the whole mission purpose was so ****ed up that it is not relevant to the discussion of intelligent use of force.

[Rohirrim]

Using mercenaries makes it easy for politicians to bypass the people in questions of war. "Hey, it's not our guys, so no harm, no foul". It also allows them to bypass American principles and laws. One more slippery slope to tyranny.

[bendog]

Using mercenaries makes it easy for politicians to bypass the people in questions of war. "Hey, it's not our guys, so no harm, no foul". It also allows them to bypass American principles and laws. One more slippery slope to tyranny.

Well, I mean Somalia would be a safe haven for terrorists if we let it, but US troops there would be nearly as good as Iraq for terrorist recruiting. So, I'm not always opposed. But there needs to be a national threat. For example, in Cuba we had a threat. Arguably we had one building in Nicaragua, but we'd have been better served to wait till the Ortega's showed they were communists, not the good socialists they pose as today.

[Dudeskey]

Guerrilla news has an interesting article about Blackwater...\
http://www.gnn.tv/articles/2977/Blackwater_Rising

Too long to quote the whole thing, sorry

[Odysseus]

For me it depends on where the dirty work is happening. For example, in the Phill's our special forces seem to work well with the local army v. muslim terrorists. But, in Somalia, there's really no local army to cooperate with. We can't invade everywhere.

As for Iraq ... the whole mission purpose was so ****ed up that it is not relevant to the discussion of intelligent use of force.

Exactly.

Good: We need somebody to do that work.
Bad: We need somebody to do that work.
Ugly: What we do or don't do is the real story of who we really are.

[SPfloppy]

I used to do fly away air field security missions on my second tour down range. Once we made a run into Pakistan to what I guess could be called an air strip. Anyway before I had left a MSgt had asked me to bring fresh fruit on the trip and to give it to the "civilian guards" at the base we were going to. When we hit the ground my partner and I got off the 130 and set up our 360 but this big sombi*** waved us off and said they had air field security. I remembered the fruit and ran back to get it to give to him. When I got back off the plane the big dude was driving a front end loader like a man possessed and definetely not within what the air force at least would consider a safe manner. He off loads two pallets and loads one nearly empty am-2 pallet back on the bird then backs up at oh about 25mph. He didn't look back and ran smack over this short merc with a mini-14's leg. The short guy cusses so loud I can almost hear every word over the engine noise, runs around the front end loader and yanks the big dude right outta the seat. About this time a mullet adorned guy wearing a set of the most expensive oakely shades I've ever seen comes over to me and asks me about the fruit I have in my hands. I take stock of Joe Dirt who stands an impressive 5ft nothing, with no **** flipflops and cut off dcu pants holding a gun I can't place with a badass blackhawk tactical vest. He leans in and says thru stained and missing teeth 'don't worry man, they're friends". I looked back at the short guy and the big dude who are eye ball to eye ball and looks like they're about to go at it, when my partner taps me on the shoulder and says it's time to go. I got back on and still don't know what happened to those two.

Anyway I started asking the guys back in Qatar who they were and I was filled in quick. Some guys say they made like 10,000 a month and wanted the fruit because they had to eat off the locals

[cutthemdown]

almost every blackwater guy is ex military.

[snowspot66]

Mercenaries. It's what failing empires turn to when their own citizens no longer want to fight their wars.

Mercenaries are often there to create those same empires. They're in every war.

[defenseman]

Mercenaries are often there to create those same empires. They're in every war.

Yep, some guys love to fight, if the money is right, been that way for a couple thousand years or so...dman

[Rohirrim]

Mercenaries are often there to create those same empires. They're in every war.

I always considered America as somehow different from all those other empires. Maybe not.

[alkemical]

I'd probably say "not" ro~

[defenseman]

I always considered America as somehow different from all those other empires. Maybe not.

Tactics may be similar sometimes, but, all in all we are different..dman

[Odysseus]

I always considered America as somehow different from all those other empires. Maybe not.

We are indeed a gentle empire.

http://www.amazon.com/Colossus-Rise-Fall-American-Empire/dp/0143034790/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-6189674-7844803?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1174509286&sr=8-1

[Garcia Bronco]

Dang...you guys that hate America so much should probably head on out.

[enjolras]

Awesome... 'if you don't like it you can get the hell out' card is in play.

Why can't someone love America faults and all? I love America for what it could be, not what it is. Our goals and ideals as a people are so lofty that I'm not sure any nation can ever truly live up to them, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. America has done a lot of great things, but we've been the a-hole a few to many times as well. We need to stop that, and simply denying it or attacking those who bring it up doesn't fix the problem.

[Spider]

Dang...you guys that hate America so much should probably head on out.

so where is the line drawn ? if I bítch about the interstate system , do I need to get the **** out also ?
how about if Pelosi does something I dont like , and I call her a C**t , do I need to get the **** out then ? or is that ok to do to a dem but not Rep ?
If I admit my country isnt perfect , do i have to get the **** out ?

[ak1971]

so where is the line drawn ? if I bítch about the interstate system , do I need to get the **** out also ?
how about if Pelosi does something I dont like , and I call her a **** , do I need to get the **** out then ? or is that ok to do to a dem but not Rep ?
If I admit my country isnt perfect , do i have to get the **** out ?

I think what he is getting at is that you guys seem to always have nothing good to say about America. So when a democrat ****s up eveything in a couple years what then?

[cutthemdown]

Dang...you guys that hate America so much should probably head on out.

Should I hold the door for them or let it hit them in the ass?

[Spider]

I think what he is getting at is that you guys seem to always have nothing good to say about America. So when a democrat ****s up eveything in a couple years what then?

well , I call a spade a spade , life to short to beat around the Bush , and if you read , I have been calling those on the left Nazis , even argued with a few fellow dems here , see I dont know why you guys love to settle for the status quo ... you allow this republican Congress and president do what they want when they want , me you dont piss down my leg and tell me it is raining ........ perhaps you like to eat bullshít , not me I expect more dammit , more from my self on my Job , and more from the people I vote for ........ I love this country , i will be damned if I sit back and let people ruin it in the name of their party ........as far as I am concerned , people who do that , or the traitors , those are the ones that need to leave ........ as soon as you are satisfied in life , you are done ........ you need to grow and learn everyday , if not you are better off dead , just taking up space .....Sorry to be so calloused , but thats how the ball bounces ........ you want ot eat the shít the reps have been pushin more power to you , but dont expect the rest of us to suck cock ..........

[Spider]

1 party system = Traitors to America ......... and those that support or vote party line are traitors , they dont love what this country stands for , they dont respect the fighting and dying of our forefathers ............. Just their party ...nothing but pure ****ing traitors , no different then those that fly the confederate flag , all traitors

[Spider]

see this is the problem , America was never intended to be a 1 party system , checks and balances were put in place for a reason , Russia , Cuba , China are 1 party systems , Punks today want 1 party to control everything in America , even to the point we get accused of Bad mouthing America for disliking Bush ......... you know what , Bush isnt America and alot of you are not Americans , nothing but commies posing as Americans ......... Then you have the balls to tell someone to leave this country cause they question or give an opinion ? eat **** .........

[Spider]

Should I hold the door for them or let it hit them in the ass?

question is , who is man enough to make us all leave ?

[alkemical]

Dang...you guys that hate America so much should probably head on out.

You can go with them too.

[ak1971]

well , I call a spade a spade , life to short to beat around the Bush , and if you read , I have been calling those on the left Nazis , even argued with a few fellow dems here , see I dont know why you guys love to settle for the status quo ... you allow this republican Congress and president do what they want when they want , me you dont piss down my leg and tell me it is raining ........ perhaps you like to eat bullshít , not me I expect more dammit , more from my self on my Job , and more from the people I vote for ........ I love this country , i will be damned if I sit back and let people ruin it in the name of their party ........as far as I am concerned , people who do that , or the traitors , those are the ones that need to leave ........ as soon as you are satisfied in life , you are done ........ you need to grow and learn everyday , if not you are better off dead , just taking up space .....Sorry to be so calloused , but thats how the ball bounces ........ you want ot eat the shít the reps have been pushin more power to you , but dont expect the rest of us to suck cock ..........

you're the one that likes to suck cock..

or should I put it in something you can understand?

yur the 1 that likes to suk cok

You think I love my party much anymore? Look up what the ****ers did for internet gaming...now the dems are coming in and ****ing up my other source of income

[Spider]

you're the one that likes to suck cock..

or should I put it in something you can understand?

yur the 1 that likes to suk cok

You think I love my party much anymore? Look up what the ****ers did for internet gaming...now the dems are coming in and ****ing up my other source of income

none of this meant shít when you casted your vote in 04 .......... but nice try .....I knew you had a bit of Yavoon in you , didnt think it went that far .........

[defenseman]

Nobody's leaving anytime soon. Fact is, I'm thinking nearly to the poster, all of us would pick up arms and defend our home land if some organization/country decided it was time to attempt to take us by force. That in itself, is good enough for me....dman

[Rohirrim]

Some people just need to figure out that there is a difference between what's good for George Bush and what's good for America. They're not the same thing, you know. I always like to hear that ''love it or leave it'' crap. If you don't like the idea of free speech, maybe it's YOU that is in the wrong country, ahole.

[defenseman]

Some people just need to figure out that there is a difference between what's good for George Bush and what's good for America. They're not the same thing, you know. I always like to hear that ''love it or leave it'' crap. If you don't like the idea of free speech, maybe it's YOU that is in the wrong country, ahole.

Who you talking to Ro, I'm sure not me...dman

[alkemical]

I don't think it was addressed to you dman. He was referring to the 'love it/leave it' comments.

[Rohirrim]

Who you talking to Ro, I'm sure not me...dman

Anybody who disagrees with this:

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else."

Teddy Roosevelt

[TailgateNut]

Tactics may be similar sometimes, but, all in all we are different..dman


RIGHT!



The only differences I see is our arrogance and total lack of accountability as we break the laws we are enforcing.

[TailgateNut]

Dang...you guys that hate America so much should probably head on out.

Comprehension problems make people say STUPID ****! Just because some of us do not have our heads completely up our own asses, doesn't mean we hate our country. I fact we may care more than those who sit idle while the POTUS is ****ing up everything we used to be.
I am just as judgemental of a Dem as I am of a Rep. They have a responsibilty to every citizen, not to a higher "god".

[TailgateNut]

Nobody's leaving anytime soon. Fact is, I'm thinking nearly to the poster, all of us would pick up arms and defend our home land if some organization/country decided it was time to attempt to take us by force. That in itself, is good enough for me....dman


I agree partially. There are some here who talk the talk, but wouldn't walk the walk if required.
They say the love this country, while watching it fall off into an abyss, and if confronted by an enemy, they would run and hide!

[defenseman]

I agree partially. There are some here who talk the talk, but wouldn't walk the walk if required.
They say the love this country, while watching it fall off into an abyss, and if confronted by an enemy, they would run and hide!

You may be right. There may be some cowards who just couldn't walk the walk and knuckle when the arrow is about to fly...dman

[TailgateNut]

You may be right. There may be some cowards who just couldn't walk the walk and knuckle when the arrow is about to fly...dman

Between you and me and the fencepost, I'd bet all my fortunes on it.
There are several I wouldn't want covering my back.
It's one of those "gut instinct" things. Know what I mean?

What bugs the **** out of me is that those who fall into that category are some of the "loudest" supporters of war, but would hide behind their "own" if bullets where flying.

[Spider]

I know I came off harsh in my postings , but this leave the country shít has to end , I like Garcia , and I should have been more cooth , he is a good guy that likes to stir the pot .......... but that leave the country line chaps the crack of my ass

[Garcia Bronco]

1 party system = Traitors to America ......... and those that support or vote party line are traitors , they dont love what this country stands for , they dont respect the fighting and dying of our forefathers ............. Just their party ...nothing but pure ****ing traitors , no different then those that fly the confederate flag , all traitors

You should read federalist paper #10.

[defenseman]

Between you and me and the fencepost, I'd bet all my fortunes on it.
There are several I wouldn't want covering my back.
It's one of those "gut instinct" things. Know what I mean?

What bugs the **** out of me is that those who fall into that category are some of the "loudest" supporters of war, but would hide behind their "own" if bullets where flying.

Yep, better to have battled and been bloodied, then to cower in the corner. No other way to go out when it comes to defending your own.....dman

[alkemical]

If i'm going to piss myself, it's going to be when i'm dead.

[Rohirrim]

Between you and me and the fencepost, I'd bet all my fortunes on it.
There are several I wouldn't want covering my back.
It's one of those "gut instinct" things. Know what I mean?

What bugs the **** out of me is that those who fall into that category are some of the "loudest" supporters of war, but would hide behind their "own" if bullets where flying.

Not one of the most rabid supporters of the Iraq invasion (Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Feith, Rice, etc. etc. etc.) have ever heard a shot fired in anger. In fact, the majority of them are deferment monkeys. Cheney must have broken some kind of record with the number of deferments he got.

[alkemical]

Not one of the most rabid supporters of the Iraq invasion (Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Feith, Rice, etc. etc. etc.) have ever heard a shot fired in anger. In fact, the majority of them are deferment monkeys. Cheney must have broken some kind of record with the number of deferments he got.



Yeah but Cheney shot someone in the face and had THEM apologize for it. That's some "family" stuff right there....

[defenseman]

Make it a requirement to serve as president, one must have served in a war zone?...dman

[TailgateNut]

I think what he is getting at is that you guys seem to always have nothing good to say about America. So when a democrat ****s up eveything in a couple years what then?


Just between friends. That's way off course. Most of the attacks are aimed at the administration and their actions, not the country as a whole, and if a democrat were to act in the same fashion, he would also be scrutinized and attacked in the same fashion. This is an issue of a man who has been put into a position which he does not respect nor is qualified to fill.

[TailgateNut]

You think I love my party much anymore? Look up what the ****ers did for internet gaming...now the dems are coming in and ****ing up my other source of income


Maybe you'll need to find an honest way to make a livin'!:wiggle:

[Bronco Bob]

Make it a requirement to serve as president, one must have served in a war zone?...dman

Why not just get rid of democracy then and put the generals in charge?

[defenseman]

Why not just get rid of democracy then and put the generals in charge?

I'm being facetious of course. However I do believe "some" military background could be helpful wrt the presidency. Making it a reqmt?, Nah, too many of our "new" elected officials have no experience with the military and I'm thinking there a few closet military "haters" to be honest. JMHO. I can think of a couple of former generals/admirals I wouldn't mine seeing in the WH to be honest....dman

[Rohirrim]

It's funny now, but when you read the writings of Eisenhower, he sounds like a liberal compared to the guys in the WH. He always said that those who hate war the most are the ones who have seen it firsthand.

[Bronco Bob]

I'm being facetious of course. However I do believe "some" military background could be helpful wrt the presidency. Making it a reqmt?, Nah, too many of our "new" elected officials have no experience with the military and I'm thinking there a few closet military "haters" to be honest. JMHO. I can think of a couple of former generals/admirals I wouldn't mine seeing in the WH to be honest....dman

FDR had no military background other than being Assistant Secretary of the
Navy under Woodrow Wilson and yet he prosecuted one of the most
successful wars in American history. Clinton had no military background
and yet the Kosovo war went far better than Bush's Iraq and Afghanistan
war are going.

[Florida_Bronco]

Think of these government contractors (or mercenaries) as elite Special Forces Units that get paid even more. They are usually tasked with diplomat protection and other high priority tasks.

I personally know 3 of these mercenaries, although they do not work for Blackwater. They definetly get the job down without alot of the government red tape, but by and large they are not the reckless cowboys they are portrayed as.

On a side note, Sig Sauer and Blackwater teamed up to make a handgun I'd love to have. http://www.theshootingedge.com/gallery/albums/album04/Blackwater.sized.jpg

[Rohirrim]

It's not too big of a step from secret military to secret police. The fact is, the backbone of democracy is transperancy. Lose that, and anything is possible, usually some form of tyranny.

[alkemical]

It's not too big of a step from secret military to secret police. The fact is, the backbone of democracy is transperancy. Lose that, and anything is possible, usually some form of tyranny.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celine%27s_laws

Celine's First Law
National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity.

Reflecting the paranoia of the Cold War, Celine's First Law focuses around the fact that to have national security, one must create a secret police. Since internal revolutionaries and external foes would make the secret police a prime target for infiltration, and because the secret police would by necessity have vast powers to blackmail and intimidate other members of the government, another higher set of secret police must be created to monitor the secret police. And even higher set of secret police must then be created to monitor the higher order of secret police. Repeat ad nauseum.

This seemingly infinite regress goes on until every other person in the country is spying on the other one, or "the funding runs out." And since this paranoid and self monitoring situation inherently makes targets of a nation's own citizens, the average person in the nation is more threatened by the massive secret police complex than by whatever foe they were seeking to protect themselves from. Wilson points out that the Soviet Union, which suffered from this in spades, got to the point that it was terrified of painters and poets who could do little harm to them in reality.

At the same time, given the limitation of funding and scale, the perfect security state never truly emerges, leaving the populace still vulnerable from the original threat while also being threatened by the vast and Orwellian secret police.

[alkemical]

Celine's Second Law

Accurate communication is only possible in a non-punishing situation.

Wilson rephrases this himself many times as "communication only occurs between equals." Celine calls this law "a simple statement of the obvious" and refers to the fact that everyone who labors under an authority figure tends to lie to and flatter that authority figure in order to protect themselves either from violence or from deprivation of security (such as losing one's job). In essence, it is usually more in the interests of any worker to tell his boss what he wants to hear, not what is true.

In any hierarchy, every level below the highest carries a subtle burden to see the world in the way their superiors expect it to be seen and to provide feedback to their superiors that their superiors want to hear. In the end, any hierarchical organization supports what its leaders already think is true more than it challenges them to think differently. The levels below the leaders are more interested in keeping their jobs than telling the truth.

Wilson, in Prometheus Rising, uses the example of J. Edgar Hoover's FBI. Hoover saw communist infiltrators and spies everywhere, and he told his agents to hunt them down. Therefore, FBI agents began seeing and interpreting everything they could as parts of the communist conspiracy. Some even went as far as framing people as communists, making large baseless arrests and doing everything they could to satisfy Hoover's need to find and drive out the communist conspiracy. The problem is, such a conspiracy never existed in any form Hoover thought it did, but any agent who dared point out the lack of evidence to Hoover would be at best denied promotions, and at worst labeled a communist himself and lose his job. Any agent who knew the truth would be very careful to hide the fact.

In the end, Celine states, any hierarchy acts more to conceal the truth from its leaders than it serves to find the truth.

[alkemical]

Celine's Third Law

An honest politician is a national calamity.

Celine recognizes that the third law seems preposterous from the beginning. While a dishonest politician is only interested in bettering his own lot through abusing the public trust, an honest politican is far more dangerous, since he is honestly interested in bettering society through political action, and that means writing and implementing more and more laws.

Celine argues that creating more laws simply creates more criminals. Laws inherently restrict individual freedom, and the explosive rate at which laws are being created means that every citizen in the course of his daily life does not have the research capacity to not violate at least one of the plethora of laws. It is only through honest politicians trying to change the world through laws that true tyranny can come into being through excessive legislation.

Corrupt politicians simply line their own pockets. Honest idealist politicians cripple the people's freedom through enormous amounts of laws. So, corrupt politicians are preferable, according to Celine.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celine%27s_laws"



And if you wanted to discuss these, check out this existing thread (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=46915)

[defenseman]

FDR had no military background other than being Assistant Secretary of the
Navy under Woodrow Wilson and yet he prosecuted one of the most
successful wars in American history. Clinton had no military background
and yet the Kosovo war went far better than Bush's Iraq and Afghanistan
war are going.

Don't get me started on clinton, he made the military's life freaking miserable, to balance the check book...dman

[Spider]

Don't get me started on clinton, he made the military's life freaking miserable, to balance the check book...dman

That is a good thing , we in the private sector had to make some sacrifices also ......Money was flowing , but alot of the Tax perks were gone .........
But it is always good to have a balanced Checkbook ........could be we couldnt afford alot of the military

[defenseman]

That is a good thing , we in the private sector had to make some sacrifices also ......Money was flowing , but alot of the Tax perks were gone .........
But it is always good to have a balanced Checkbook ........could be we couldnt afford alot of the military

Optempo went UP not down. It was hell and alot of guys dove out because it was a living hell. He quite simply did not know what he was doing. Take the money away for parts and maintenance, oh by the way, go to sea for 290 days per year for the next three years while you are at it. Freaking idiot..dman

[TailgateNut]

Don't get me started on clinton, he made the military's life freaking miserable, to balance the check book...dman

Good grief, he must have singled you out and stepped on your dick, because he surely didn't screw the military siglehandedly. If you recall "your" party was in control of the house and senate.

[Spider]

Optempo went UP not down. It was hell and alot of guys dove out because it was a living hell. He quite simply did not know what he was doing. Take the money away for parts and maintenance, oh by the way, go to sea for 290 days per year for the next three years while you are at it. Freaking idiot..dman

Speaking of Idiot , you didnt need to be out there that long ......... Idiot , and dont go blowing off to much good friend of mine retired from the Navy joined up in 84 went to 2004 , he was a C.B. and did just fine ....... Perhaps you have an over active imagination , with a slight touch of Drama queen ............sad part is we are years from a cure for that

[defenseman]

Speaking of Idiot , you didnt need to be out there that long ......... Idiot , and dont go blowing off to much good friend of mine retired from the Navy joined up in 84 went to 2004 , he was a C.B. and did just fine ....... Perhaps you have an over active imagination , with a slight touch of Drama queen ............sad part is we are years from a cure for that

Seabees, is a low cost operation overall. And, submarines aren't . He sliced and diced our budget and jacked up our OPtempo. Just because your "buddy" had a freaking wonderful time doesn't mean the rest of us weren't paying the price, underway after underway. No overactive imagination here, Clinton f**ked us, but damn good. That said, comment all you want the facts, in my particular area of interest are dead f**king on.........and besides you know diddly ****' about the navy, submarines or what the hell they do. You know trucks, stick to your profession gear head and stay the hell out of mine. When you've been there and done that deployment after deployment at AII , 400', your opinion will be noted, otherwise it's just uneducated diatribe from an uninformed and un educated source....dman

*In short, your "buddy" does not and CANNOT speak for submarines or the sailors that man them. His take has no bearing on the facts wrt undersea warfare and the Clinton presidency.

[defenseman]

Good grief, he must have singled you out and stepped on your dick, because he surely didn't screw the military siglehandedly. If you recall "your" party was in control of the house and senate.

He sliced and diced, freaking miserable time. If I hadn't enjoyed "submarines" so much, I would have retired...dman

[Spider]

Seabees, is a low cost operation overall. And, submarines aren't . He sliced and diced our budget and jacked up our OPtempo. Just because your "buddy" had a freaking wonderful time doesn't mean the rest of us weren't paying the price, underway after underway. No overactive imagination here, Clinton ****ed us, but damn good. That said, comment all you want the facts, in my particular area of interest are dead ****ing on.........and besides you know diddly ****' about the navy, submarines or what the hell they do. You know trucks, stick to your profession gear head and stay the hell out of mine. When you've been there and done that deployment after deployment at AII , 400', your opinion will be noted, otherwise it's just uneducated diatribe from an uninformed and un educated source....dman

*In short, your "buddy" does not and CANNOT speak for submarines or the sailors that man them. His take has no bearing on the facts wrt undersea warfare and the Clinton presidency.
I see ......... one thing I did learn about Submarines .........120 men go down 60 couples come back up .......... fact still stands though , you didnt need to be out that long ..........

[defenseman]

I see ......... one thing I did learn about Submarines .........120 men go down 60 couples come back up .......... fact still stands though , you didnt need to be out that long ..........

Ever been on one? Ever seen one? Learned about submarines? Give it a rest Einstein, you know diddly squat about submarines and you certianly are in absolutely no position to challenge my position on the effect of the clinton era on the submarine community. As far as the rest of it, more diatribe from an uninformed source from where I sit. Par for the course, talking out your a$$ again...dman

[Spider]

Ever been on one? Ever seen one? Learned about submarines? Give it a rest Einstein, you know diddly squat about submarines and you certianly are in absolutely no position to challenge my position on the effect of the clinton era on the submarine community. As far as the rest of it, more diatribe from an uninformed source from where I sit. Par for the course, talking out your a$$ again...dman

Sea Wolf in Alabama ring a bell ?
yeah tourist trap , but I have been on one ..........despite all your ranting here , still havent given 1 good solid reason why you needed to be out so long ..... SOSUS works well ........... next

[defenseman]

Sea Wolf in Alabama ring a bell ?
yeah tourist trap , but I have been on one ..........despite all your ranting here , still havent given 1 good solid reason why you needed to be out so long ..... SOSUS works well ........... next

What was the Hull number? WWII boat? Diesel boat? Not even close to the fast attacks in todays fleet. WHY should I give you any reason for why I was out for so damn long. But in fact, I did lots of time underway under Clinton. You have no clearance, no need to know, and you wouldn't understand even if I did explain the ball of wax to you. In short, you don't "rate" an explantation. Join the navy, get the right clearance and maybe you'll get a freaking clue on what we do out there. That is of course, assuming they let you join. As far as sosus, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. A good boat crew can beat it...dman

[Spider]

What was the Hull number? WWII boat? Diesel boat? Not even close to the fast attacks in todays fleet. WHY should I give you any reason for why I was out for so damn long. But in fact, I did lots of time underway under Clinton. You have no clearance, no need to know, and you wouldn't understand even if I did explain the ball of wax to you. In short, you don't "rate" an explantation. Join the navy, get the right clearance and maybe you'll get a freaking clue on what we do out there. That is of course, assuming they let you join. As far as sosus, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. A good boat crew can beat it...dman

Yeah thats what I thought Capitan Nemo ........... A crew boat can beat SOSUS hey ,probably right , just another example of Money wasted in the Military ..... So far you havent offered 1 good reasoning for you continuous Clinton ruined the Military , mantra you spewed ...........

[Spider]

and by the way mr. I can spot your tactic , show me where I said the Sub I was on was the same as the Subs today .............. Next thing you know , when i say I was on my Grandfathers Plane , you will blurt out it isnt the same as a F-15

[ak1971]

Maybe you'll need to find an honest way to make a livin'!:wiggle:

Im thinking about having 8 kids and becoming a trucker

[Spider]

Im thinking about having 8 kids and becoming a trucker

LOL you wouldnt last ..... you would be busted down outside of 3 months , providing you can find some one to baby sit you until you are ready to be turned loose on your own .........

[ak1971]

LOL you wouldnt last ..... you would be busted down outside of 3 months , providing you can find some one to baby sit you until you are ready to be turned loose on your own .........

Ive had my class A CDL for years...

[Spider]

Ive had my class A CDL for years...

whats that got to do with having 8 kids ?

[ak1971]

whats that got to do with having 8 kids ?

atually thats the easy part...adopt older 8 kids and have them go steal **** for me. instant income.

Goes right along with my idea of employing illegal aliens to steal gas for me and sell it at under market value.

[Spider]

atually thats the easy part...adopt older 8 kids and have them go steal **** for me. instant income.

Goes right along with my idea of employing illegal aliens to steal gas for me and sell it at under market value.

still doesnt tell me what this has to do with a cdl ................ and see you are not thinking , you steal diesel , sell it at a under market value @ truckstops ......sell alot more no questions asked

[ak1971]

still doesnt tell me what this has to do with a cdl ................ and see you are not thinking , you steal diesel , sell it at a under market value @ truckstops ......sell alot more no questions asked

so I can be a trucker...I want to be just like you..broke

[Spider]

so I can be a trucker...I want to be just like you..broke

LOL broke huh .......... you was the one crying about loosing money ....... I get 25% of what the truck makes ........ my truck made 12,000 last week ....do the math ............... some weeks my truck only 8,000 a week ........yeah Broke Hilarious!

[ak1971]

LOL broke huh .......... you was the one crying about loosing money ....... I get 25% of what the truck makes ........ my truck made 12,000 last week ....do the math ............... some weeks my truck only 8,000 a week ........yeah Broke Hilarious!

losing money doesnt make me broke. you have to lose to win sometimes

just giving you a good natured ribbing. If I get this new job Wyoming will be part of my territory, so I can com moltov cocktail your truck :wave:

[Spider]

losing money doesnt make me broke. you have to lose to win sometimes

just giving you a good natured ribbing. If I get this new job Wyoming will be part of my territory, so I can com moltov cocktail your truck :wave:

;D let up the insurance before you do .................. Sorry I am in a raw mood , but I had a confrontation with people I agree with , have empathy for , but my Job put me on the other side of the fence .......... it came real close to being a physical confrontation ( I would have lost bad ) ...........Just one of those things I guess , and what makesìt worse is I want to go back out there , against them to show them I cant be bullied , even though I ma on their side ..........it sucks to be me