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Bronco_Beerslug
03-19-2007, 06:30 PM
How did this get this far? Of course, Bush's lawyers agree with the principal.

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Court hears "Bong hits 4 Jesus" case (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070319/pl_nm/usa_students_rights_dc_3)
By James Vicini Mon Mar 19, 2:31 PM ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - In its first major student free-speech rights case in almost 20 years, U.S. Supreme Court justices struggled on Monday with how far schools can go in censoring students.

In a case involving a Juneau, Alaska, high school student suspended for unfurling a banner that read "Bong Hits 4 Jesus," several justices seemed wary about giving a principal too much authority at the expense of the student's right to express his views.

"It's political speech, it seems to me. I don't see what it disrupts," a skeptical Justice David Souter said.

"And no one was smoking pot in that crowd," Justice
Ruth Bader Ginsburg said, referring to the group of students standing near the banner as the Winter Olympic torch relay passed by in January 2002.

The incident occurred during school hours but on a public sidewalk across from the school.

Student Joseph Frederick says the banner's language was meant to be meaningless and funny in an effort to get on television.

Principal Deborah Morse said the phrase "bong hits" referred to smoking marijuana. She suspended Frederick for 10 days because the banner advocated or promoted illegal drug use in violation of school policy.

Justice Stephen Breyer said he was struggling with the case.

A ruling for Frederick could result in students "testing limits all over the place in the high schools" while a ruling against Frederick "may really limit people's rights on free speech," Breyer said.

Kenneth Starr, the former special prosecutor who investigated former President Bill Clinton in the Monica Lewinsky sex scandal, said Morse acted reasonably and in accord with the school's anti-drug mission.

A Bush administration lawyer, Edwin Kneedler, argued for a broad rule that public schools do not have to tolerate a message inconsistent with its basic educational mission.

"I find that a very, very disturbing argument," Justice
Samuel Alito said, adding that schools could define their educational mission so broadly to suppress political speech and speech expressing fundamental student values.

Justice Anthony Kennedy asked Kneedler if the principal could have required the banner be taken down if it had said "vote Republican, vote Democrat."

Kneedler replied the principal has that authority.

Frederick's lawyer, Douglas Mertz of Juneau, said: "This is a case about free speech. It is not a case about drugs."

Mertz argued the court should not abandon its famous 1969 ruling that students do not "shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate," a decision that allowed students to wear black armbands in class to protest the Vietnam War.

But the Supreme Court's last major rulings on the issue went against the students.

The court ruled in 1986 that a student does not have a free-speech right to give a sexually suggestive speech at an assembly and in 1988 that school newspapers can be censored.

A decision in the case is expected by the end of June.

Spider
03-19-2007, 06:32 PM
Ken Starr still alive ? I thought Linda Tripp ate him or something ......

Garcia Bronco
03-19-2007, 08:21 PM
very tough to make a decision on this. But it sounds like dumbass wasn't physically on school property...in which case the priciple should **** off.

BroncoInferno
03-19-2007, 09:10 PM
very tough to make a decision on this. But it sounds like dumbass wasn't physically on school property...in which case the priciple should **** off.

Why does it matter if he's on PUBLIC school property? If it's public, that means the tax payers paid for it. Why should constitutional rights be suppressed on publicly funded property? If it were a private school, that would be different.

cutthemdown
03-19-2007, 09:40 PM
Why does it matter if he's on PUBLIC school property? If it's public, that means the tax payers paid for it. Why should constitutional rights be suppressed on publicly funded property? If it were a private school, that would be different.

I agree that you always have your rights. I do think schools have the right to ban speech that disrupts another students learning environment. In this case however it wasn't in school and I think it should be allowed. There is no way this disrupted any other students ability to have a good learning environment at the school. BONG HITS FOR EVERYONE!!!!!. Look for more and more HS student to challenge authority and push the limits of free speech.

Garcia Bronco
03-20-2007, 02:07 AM
Why does it matter if he's on PUBLIC school property? If it's public, that means the tax payers paid for it. Why should constitutional rights be suppressed on publicly funded property? If it were a private school, that would be different.

Because they're kids and they're stupid and don't know any better. Obviously this kid is a product of poor home training.

Bronco_Beerslug
03-20-2007, 08:47 AM
Because they're kids and they're stupid and don't know any better. Obviously this kid is a product of poor home training.Obviously an ignorant and presuming statement since you don't know anything about "this kid".

Dudeskey
03-20-2007, 03:58 PM
Because they're kids and they're stupid and don't know any better. Obviously this kid is a product of poor home training.

So you agree w/ the hitler principal that extended his suspension because this "stupid kid" brought up his constitutional rights?

Rascal
03-20-2007, 04:02 PM
Nice that this stupid ass case is being heard when there are more important things to be concerned with.

Garcia Bronco
03-20-2007, 05:09 PM
Obviously an ignorant and presuming statement since you don't know anything about "this kid".

I don't know...he's managed to get himself and his parents locked into a legal battle with his school by hanging up a sign that mentions the worlds believed messiah taking a 60's recreational drug through a particular aparatus. He's a dumbass..like most teenagers.

Garcia Bronco
03-20-2007, 05:13 PM
So you agree w/ the hitler principal that extended his suspension because this "stupid kid" brought up his constitutional rights?

I think to a degree they are both wrong. He's a minor at a school function while not on school property. The suspension of 10 days was way too long...at most it should have been 3 and probably should have been 1. The principle has a responsibility to the rest of the student body. The dumbass shouldn't have put up the sign either...in a perfect world...his parent and the principle should have punished him together.

Garcia Bronco
03-20-2007, 05:14 PM
Nice that this stupid ass case is being heard when there are more important things to be concerned with.

Here's another POV that has merit...this dumbass kid, aka..the catalyst, is also wasting valuable government resources over what amounts to a stupid prank.

Rascal
03-20-2007, 05:41 PM
Here's another POV that has merit...this dumbass kid, aka..the catalyst, is also wasting valuable government resources over what amounts to a stupid prank.

Uh...you honestly think the kid new that his prank would be going to the Supreme Court? Kids do pranks all the time, I expect that. But I hold adults to a higher standard and not overreact to BS such as this and not waste valuable government resources because of said prank.

Garcia Bronco
03-20-2007, 06:48 PM
the kid or an agent of the minor has filed the actiion...not the other way around.

Bronco_Beerslug
03-20-2007, 08:03 PM
I don't know...he's managed to get himself and his parents locked into a legal battle with his school by hanging up a sign that mentions the worlds believed messiah taking a 60's recreational drug through a particular aparatus. He's a dumbass..like most teenagers.Exactly!

TailgateNut
03-20-2007, 08:35 PM
1. First of all we need to know what school policy is regarding freedom of religion and speech we know what the law says.
2. Then we need to know if the students were considered to be "in class", and if not, how was this a "school sponsored event"?
3. Isn't marijuana legalized in Alaska?
4. Is this an issue of a religious principal who got upset about the isinuation?
5. If a student isn't on school property, and this was not aa official school function, then I believe the principal's actions are not legal.
6. on the other hand, if this was a school function, and the school has a clearly written policy addressing this type of infraction, then the kid deserved punishment, but nothing this extreme.

Bronco_Beerslug
03-20-2007, 08:42 PM
1. First of all we need to know what school policy is regarding freedom of religion and speech we know what the law says.
2. Then we need to know if the students were considered to be "in class", and if not, how was this a "school sponsored event"?
3. Isn't marijuana legalized in Alaska?
4. Is this an issue of a religious principal who got upset about the isinuation?
5. If a student isn't on school property, and this was not aa official school function, then I believe the principal's actions are not legal.
6. on the other hand, if this was a school function, and the school has a clearly written policy addressing this type of infraction, then the kid deserved punishment, but nothing this extreme.I don't think so. It was public property. No one should have the power to suppress free speech.

"I find that a very, very disturbing argument," Justice
Samuel Alito said, adding that schools could define their educational mission so broadly to suppress political speech and speech expressing fundamental student values.

Justice Anthony Kennedy asked Kneedler if the principal could have required the banner be taken down if it had said "vote Republican, vote Democrat."

enjolras
03-20-2007, 09:18 PM
If I understand the case law correctly there is supreme court precedent that schools have a right to enforce standards of learning not only during school session, but throughout a students time at the school. It's fairly well established that just because something didn't happen on school grounds or during school hours that the school can't become involved.

It's not uncommon for students to be suspended after they're arrested for a crime. Or removed from sports because they got into a fight at the mall. Those are well established rights of the school.

What makes this particular case interesting is not so much what rights the school has in enforcing student discipline, but rather to what extent a student has rights of free speech. Case law suggests that students have more limited free speech rights than the general public, but there is also case law that has established that students have the right to political speech.

That's the crux of the issue here. Was this student making a political statement, or was he making a pro-drug statement that would have subjected him to school discipline?

I think it's an important case. Establishing what rights are so fundamental that they can't be supressed is a fundamentally important question that echoes throughout the whole of free speech case law. This case should go a long ways towards establishing that.

That said.. I think any reasonable person might suggest that the whole thing never had to get this far. The principal overreacted from what I can tell. A harmless banner expressing a non-sensical political opinion deserves little more than a raised eyebrow. It's not like the kid was selling pot...

Garcia Bronco
03-20-2007, 10:49 PM
His free speech wasn't suppressed at all. Just because you can say things and express whatever you want...does not mean that there aren't consequences. I think we all agree that 10 days is too many, but he did deserve the punishment. Like I said...they are both wrong.