More FA News: Kerney still in Denver, Graham was almost signed

[rovolution]

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_5350525

Besides Wilkinson, the Broncos continued to meet with former Atlanta Falcons defensive end Patrick Kerney on Saturday morning. Kerney was also scheduled to visit Seattle today. On offense, the Broncos were trying to close a deal with tight end Daniel Graham before he took off for a scheduled visit to Oakland today, followed by Seattle.

Why would Graham even consider playing for the Faide?

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Kudos to Shanny for being their first visits, but he better come out of this weekend with at least one of those two or Green signed.

[TheDave]

Really like the aggressive way that the broncos are attacking FA this year

[Broncojef]

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_5350525

Besides Wilkinson, the Broncos continued to meet with former Atlanta Falcons defensive end Patrick Kerney on Saturday morning. Kerney was also scheduled to visit Seattle today. On offense, the Broncos were trying to close a deal with tight end Daniel Graham before he took off for a scheduled visit to Oakland today, followed by Seattle.

Why would Graham even consider playing for the Faide?

I don't know how a Colorado kid can even feign interest in them. I guess if i was going to try to battle for $$$ with guys like Shanny and Sundquist having the plane ready for Chokeland is a good buffer to have on your side.

[Paladin]

No announcements yet, but can they still get Kerney? Maybe so. I agree that it would be good if the Broncos could get one good FA. I think Kerney may be a bit more appropriate, but Graham is likely to have more relative impact. IMHO, a good DE/DT can be had in the draft in the first two rounds, both of whom may be better players than Kerney.

[HEAV]

Why would Graham even consider playing for the Faide?


It's called price raising.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Signing Kerney does not mean they're passing up DL early in the draft, the unit needs more than 1 new player. They've got Dumervil and a bunch of older vets.

[Paladin]

The New Negotiating Paradigm!

[rovolution]

It's called price raising.

But hes a colorado boy. You would think he would have some regret putting on the black and silver.

[Paladin]

Signing Kerney does not mean they're passing up DL early in the draft, the unit needs more than 1 new player. They've got Dumervil and a bunch of older vets.

Haven't signed him yet, but I understand your point and I agree.

[Willynowei]

Keeping my fingers crossed for Kerney. D-line should be priority #1,2 and 3.

[Broncojef]

Sign Kerney to an incentive laden clause and draft your young studs. If Kerney performs...awesome, if not the young kids will be right behind him. I don't think its an either or thing.

[NFLBRONCO]

If we landed Kerney Graham and Green or Travis Henry or T. Jones. I'm not sure which way we'll go in draft.

[ChampBailey24]

get graham!!!

[Jens1893]

I´m disappointed Graham left town without signing a contract.

[Jens1893]

If we landed Kerney Graham and Green or Travis Henry or T. Jones. I'm not sure which way we'll go in draft.

Safety in the first ...

[Broncojef]

I´m disappointed Graham left town without signing a contract.

The news above makes it sound as if though hes close to a deal and hasn't left yet.

[chaz]

well shoot...i feel a big wave of disappointment coming....i get all excited about these guys coming to denver right away but if they leave i just feel they will start signing elsewhere and we'll be left with nothing...money talks. and we are a whisper compared to most teams out there.

[Jens1893]

The news above makes it sound as if though hes close to a deal and hasn't left yet.

I may have to read stuff more closely in the future. :)

[SoCalBronco]

I´m disappointed Graham left town without signing a contract.

Dan should get the best financial package for him. If its with the Broncos, great, if its not, thats ok too.

[Broncojef]

well shoot...i feel a big wave of disappointment coming....i get all excited about these guys coming to denver right away but if they leave i just feel they will start signing elsewhere and we'll be left with nothing...money talks. and we are a whisper compared to most teams out there.

Denver is a Bronco town. Players know the fans are passionate, the ownership is the best there is, Shanny is one of the best football coaches in the NFL. Both Kerney and Graham have intrinsic ties to Denver that puts them #1 on both guys list. Money talks but the intangibles have to be in our favor at least with these two. All things equal they might take a bit less to push the Broncos over the top. Sometimes guys take less money to follow their heart or be where their family will be happy. Financial packages sometimes miss that point.

[chaz]

Denver is a Bronco town. Players know the fans are passionate, the ownership is the best there is, Shanny is one of the best football coaches in the NFL. Both Kerney and Graham have intrinsic ties to Denver that puts them #1 on both guys list. Money talks but the intangibles have to be in our favor at least with these two. All things equal they might take a bit less to push the Broncos over the top.

thats what i thought, but the fact that we couldnt get a deal done before they left for other visits tell me the numbers weren't high enough...cuz if they were there would have been no reason to leave.

[Jens1893]

Dan should get the best financial package for him. If its with the Broncos, great, if its not, thats ok too.

I just want the guy badly. That´s all.

There´s no way Denver´s offer will be the best on the table, but Denver and the Broncos can offer things other teams and cities cannot.

[eddie mac]

On offense, the Broncos were trying to close a deal with tight end Daniel Graham before he took off for a scheduled visit to Oakland today, followed by Seattle.

Maybe it's just me but technically that passage can be interpreted as if Graham is still in Denver discussing terms.

[Broncojef]

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_5350525

Besides Wilkinson, the Broncos continued to meet with former Atlanta Falcons defensive end Patrick Kerney on Saturday morning. Kerney was also scheduled to visit Seattle today. On offense, the Broncos were trying to close a deal with tight end Daniel Graham before he took off for a scheduled visit to Oakland today, followed by Seattle.

Why would Graham even consider playing for the Faide?

Sounds to me if they are still hashing things out at Dove Valley and they haven't left...any follow-up news? Don't we have guys at the airport?

[HEAV]

But hes a colorado boy. You would think he would have some regret putting on the black and silver.



This is a bussiness first and foremost. Homerish is a fan illness, not an NFL player or agent illness.

We would pay the Broncos to play for them. But DG has them in a spot to get the max.

His agent said before Thurday, " Don't come calling if youre not ready to start with 5 Mill per year."

[chaz]

i could see them wanting 5 mil./year and us talking them down to the low fours....seems very similar to what eddie mac came up with a while ago.

[baja]

Denver is a Bronco town. Players know the fans are passionate, the ownership is the best there is, Shanny is one of the best football coaches in the NFL. Both Kerney and Graham have intrinsic ties to Denver that puts them #1 on both guys list. Money talks but the intangibles have to be in our favor at least with these two. All things equal they might take a bit less to push the Broncos over the top. Sometimes guys take less money to follow their heart or be where their family will be happy. Financial packages sometimes miss that point.

The intangables are why we should have brought Graham and Kerney in for their last visit not the first. had they come in last we could have said well we can come close to that offer and offer all these extra perks.

[Broncojef]

This is a bussiness first and foremost. Homerish is a fan illness, not an NFL player or agent illness.

We would pay the Broncos to play for them. But DG has them in a spot to get the max.

His agent said before Thurday, " Don't come calling if youre not ready to start with 5 Mill per year."


Well they chose to talk to Denver first on their tour of the wild West. I think Graham is somewhat of a homer and would get a kick out of being a Bronco playing in front of relatives and friends for the hometeam.

[azbroncfan]

But hes a colorado boy. You would think he would have some regret putting on the black and silver.

Isn't Graham from California? I know he played college in Boulder but that doesn't make him a Colorado boy.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Sounds to me if they are still hashing things out at Dove Valley and they haven't left...any follow-up news? Don't we have guys at the airport?

The Post article hasn't been updated since 12:15, and the Rocky has nothing except for the articles in this morning's paper.

[Broncojef]

Graham probably has got his pen out to sign 4 or 5 times and his agent is hoping for the tour to continue. I see the Vikings just signed Shiancoe to a 5 year $18 Mill deal but one of these other teams no doubt would come to the plate with more $$$.

[bpc]

I think kerney will look at financials but I think he wants to win more. I still think even if we don't put out the best contract, if we are competitive, he will sign with us over some other clubs. Then again we are going against Seattle right now and they are winning a lot of games too. Tough to say.

I think Graham is just enjoying being recruited. Oakland is disfunctional. He won't sign with them.

Besides maybe a player like Michael Griffin, Levi Brown, or Tony Hunt, I don't think I would look anywhere besides DL in the first three rounds. Even with Kerney, Warren, Wilkenson, and Ekuban as the starters, we are lacking quality depth and talent behind that. Dumervil and Veal as the only guys that I think can contribute on any part-time basis. Courtney Brown is done unfortunately.

[Jens1893]

On offense, the Broncos were trying to close a deal with tight end Daniel Graham before he took off for a scheduled visit to Oakland today, followed by Seattle.

Maybe it's just me but technically that passage can be interpreted as if Graham is still in Denver discussing terms.

Yes, but the "were trying" and "took off" threw me off a little as it´s past tense. The sentence sounds kinda incomplete tho.

[chaz]

The intangables are why we should have brought Graham and Kerney in for their last visit not the first. had they come in last we could have said well we can come close to that offer and offer all these extra perks.

no way. big time FAs rarely make it to their last visit, simply because they make their visits in order of their preference....which should bode well for us since we had some great talent at dove valley on friday but nothing has materialized from it, causing me to think we might come up empty handed...

[Jens1893]

Isn't Graham from California? I know he played college in Boulder but that doesn't make him a Colorado boy.

he was born in cali, grew up in denver and played hs at jefferson high

[eddie mac]

Yes, but the "were trying" and "took off" threw me off a little as it´s past tense. The sentence sounds kinda incomplete tho.

The way I see it and some might call it a homer reach is this.

Someone asks Williamson for an update on Graham.

He says last I heard the Broncos were trying to close a deal with tight end Daniel Graham before he took off for a scheduled visit to Oakland today, followed by Seattle.

[eddie mac]

The intangables are why we should have brought Graham and Kerney in for their last visit not the first. had they come in last we could have said well we can come close to that offer and offer all these extra perks.

Chances are they would never have got here. The other interested parties may have offered deals that were too good to turn down. How many free agents signed on their 1st visit in the last 2 days???

[chaz]

but if he was still in denver i think it would read "before he takes off" saying they WERE trying before he TOOK OFF insinuates that he is gone to me...i wish i was with you though eddie....


by the way...where in ireland are you?

[Jens1893]

The way I see it and some might call it a homer reach is this.

Someone asks Williamson for an update on Graham.

He says last I heard the Broncos were trying to close a deal with tight end Daniel Graham before he took off for a scheduled visit to Oakland today, followed by Seattle.

Good point.

[Dendave]

any news if Kerney is still in town? as of 4:30 Eastern?

[bdv]

Whether or not he's a "Colorado boy," all things being close to equal, Graham would likely prefer to play for our (good) team while blocking & catching for our QB, as opposed to what the Raiders have to offer in this regard. Free agents don't generally like to go to losing organizations, unless the compensation difference is substantial.

I'm betting Graham will be a Bronco. If so, how might this acquisition influence Tony Scheffler's job description?

-Tim

[theAPAOps5]

Tony would be more the recieving TE while Dan Graham would be the blocking End. But Graham can catch too its not like he has butter fingers. It will help while Shefler continues to learn how to be a complete NFL TE.

[BroncoInferno]

I'm betting Graham will be a Bronco. If so, how might this acquisition influence Tony Scheffler's job description?

My guess is Scheffler will the play an H-back role, and he'll be the Sharpe to Graham's Dwayne Carswell.

[eddie mac]

but if he was still in denver i think it would read "before he takes off" saying they WERE trying before he TOOK OFF insinuates that he is gone to me...i wish i was with you though eddie....


by the way...where in ireland are you?

Northern Ireland about 10 minutes from the Giant's Causeway.

[Steve Sewell]

The intangables are why we should have brought Graham and Kerney in for their last visit not the first. had they come in last we could have said well we can come close to that offer and offer all these extra perks.


Their thought process on this is sound. Being the last team for them to visit opens us up to the risk that they sign elsewhere and never visit. If they visit first, we have the first opportunity to get them to sign without leaving, in addition to giving the player a good reference point when he goes and visits ****ty places like Oakland.

[nickademus]

Besides maybe a player like Michael Griffin, Levi Brown, or Tony Hunt, I don't think I would look anywhere besides DL in the first three rounds. Even with Kerney, Warren, Wilkenson, and Ekuban as the starters, we are lacking quality depth and talent behind that. Dumervil and Veal as the only guys that I think can contribute on any part-time basis. Courtney Brown is done unfortunately.

Did you forget the last Brownco? Lang? But I agree we still need some early round fresh meat from the draft

[SpringStein]

Personal income state taxes are considerably less in CO than CA. For you and me, that may not mean too much. But when talking in the $10 million range, it does become a factor.

[Steve Sewell]

Isn't Graham from California? I know he played college in Boulder but that doesn't make him a Colorado boy.

Dan's dad played for the Broncos, he grew up in Denver, went to Thomas Jefferson HS in South Denver, and went CU. His entire family lives in Denver.

I wouldn't underestimate the impact this will have on his decision...he'll take a minor hometown discount and I'd imagine that he'll give the Broncos every opportunity to make a fair offer for his services.

[Lestat]

Sheff will probably be in a Chris Cooley role but red zone time we all know Cutler will go for him

[baja]

Personal income state taxes are considerably less in CO than CA. For you and me, that may not mean too much. But when talking in the $10 million range, it does become a factor.

Excellent point good thinking!

[Sphinx571]

John Clayton on ESPN radio (5:27pm CST):

Kerney on his way to Seattle.

Graham on his way to Oakland.

[theAPAOps5]

Yeah I just heard the same thing. Although I am not sure how much I trust his sources. Makes me worry about losing both of our top prospects.



Broncos eyeing Travis Henry
Denver signs New Orleans guard Montrae Holland
By Bill Williamson
Denver Post Staff Writer
Article Last Updated: 03/03/2007 04:12:12 PM MST


Atlanta defensive end Patrick Kerney left Denver without a deal and flew to Seattle. The Broncos have an offer on the table but Kerney is expected to listen to Seattle as well.

There is an offer

[chaz]

its not looking good...but we cant say it was for lack of effort. we tried, would be very surprised if they come back to denver after they see the numbers other teams will be offering

[Rohirrim]

I can't believe any pro with half a brain would want to play in Oakland right now. There are rumors that the owner is insane. The new coach is somewhere below the status of "rookie." The locker room is an open sore. You have absolutely ZERO chance of getting into the playoffs. You play your games in an arena that is the sewer of the NFL. You play in a city that is one of the sewers of the U.S. You're in one the earthquake epicenters of the Northern Hemisphere. I mean, really...

[eddie mac]

This is not good at all. Seattle missed out on their 1 target Dielman so they can throw whatever they want at Kerney.

The promise from yesterday is quickly evaporating.

[baja]

And the inmates are running the asylum

[SoCalBronco]

I can't believe any pro with half a brain would want to play in Oakland right now. There are rumors that the owner is insane. The new coach is somewhere below the status of "rookie." The locker room is an open sore. You have absolutely ZERO chance of getting into the playoffs. You play your games in an arena that is the sewer of the NFL. You play in a city that is one of the sewers of the U.S. You're in one the earthquake epicenters of the Northern Hemisphere. I mean, really...

If Oakland's offer is substantially better than Denver's or any of the other teams offers that are after him, he'd be an idiot to turn it down, even with all the issues you outlined above.

It would be an easy decision to make.

[cutthemdown]

we signed holland? good move he gives us depth at gaurd we sorely need.

[Odysseus]

Really like the aggressive way that the broncos are attacking FA this year

I like the WHO they are going after. They have been aggressive in the past and brought in Dale Carter.

[Rohirrim]

If Oakland's offer is substantially better than Denver's or any of the other teams offers that are after him, he'd be an idiot to turn it down, even with all the issues you outlined above.

It would be an easy decision to make.

Not for me. The offer would have to "substantially," and I mean SUBSTANTIALLY better.

[Odysseus]

And the inmates are running the asylum

:spit:

[SonOfLe-loLang]

I don't think missing out on Kerney is the biggest deal in the world. He's older, coming off an injury, and was never Bruce Smith to begin with. Probably a blessing in disguise that we miss him. The signing of Wilkinson shows we want to take back to line of scrimmage with size. No more being pushed off the ball. Look for them to try to draft Adam Carriker in the first round. I bet he's exactly what they are looking for

[davidtkd]

Trying to get info from my dad who cuts Tom Graham's hair. I know, it's third party, but hey, it's Dan's dad. Tom says that Dan really wants to come home and play for Denver but needs to see what kind of pay day waits for him. this was day before yesterday.

[Sassy]

Trying to get info from my dad who cuts Tom Graham's hair. I know, it's third party, but hey, it's Dan's dad. Tom says that Dan really wants to come home and play for Denver but needs to see what kind of pay day waits for him. this was day before yesterday.

I think that makes sense. We don't always take the first job that's offered to us either...we shop around.

[CBF1]

There are two kinds of free agents.... Those that want the big money and those that want a fair deal, a great city and organization AND a chance to win it all. If a player chooses Oakland over Denver, then they are in it only for the money and that is not a player I would want on the Broncos. Let them find happiness elsewhere.

[Needa Pass Rush]

Why would Graham even consider playing for the Faide?

You think that Denver (Shanahan) may be more apt to overpay if the Raiders are in the picture? It's the simple principal of leverage. His agent is earning his sheckles. :pimp:

[Bronx33]

Trying to get info from my dad who cuts Tom Graham's hair. I know, it's third party, but hey, it's Dan's dad. Tom says that Dan really wants to come home and play for Denver but needs to see what kind of pay day waits for him. this was day before yesterday.


Sounds like dad taught him principles.

[That One Guy]

The question is whether Graham is addicted to winning since his days in NE or if he figures he's won enough and it's time for a payday. I think we probably offer as good a chance to win as anyone but we can't offer the payday a loser may be able to offer.

[atomicbloke]

There are two kinds of free agents.... Those that want the big money and those that want a fair deal, a great city and organization AND a chance to win it all. If a player chooses Oakland over Denver, then they are in it only for the money and that is not a player I would want on the Broncos. Let them find happiness elsewhere.

Trying to secure your financial future so that you and your family and kids can live comfortably is something all of us try to do.

If a player feels that he wants to make the best use of a few years of his life by securing his financial future, especially when he already has his rings.... I won't hold it against him.

[JCMElway]

Hey, I wouldn't give up on these guys yet. How often do these pros get the wine and dine treatment of being a top FA? I don't think I'd mind getting flown around the country, eating free steak dinners, and being told how great I was. Hell, they may make a couple of more stops and then go home to ruiminate. Pluswhich, once these guys sign, it's no longer a vacation. It's time to hit the playbooks and weight room. For Graham, Kerney and the lot it's summer vacation and everyone is stroking their ego.

I don't blame these guys one bit for waiting to decide.

[eddie mac]

KERNEY VISITING THE 'HAWKS

Adam Caplan of Scout.com reports that defensive end Patrick Kerney will visit the Seahawks. Per Caplan, the 'Hawks are expected to make Kerney a lucrative offer.

The starting defensive ends in Seattle currently are Grant Wistrom and Bryce Fisher. Wistrom was ridiculously overpaid several years ago, and it looks like the Seahawks are ready to do the same for Kerney.

It had been reported that the Broncos were intent on signing Kerney before he headed to Seattle, but their efforts were unsuccessful.

[rbackfactory80]

The starting defensive ends in Seattle currently are Grant Wistrom and Bryce Fisher. Wistrom was ridiculously overpaid several years ago, and it looks like the Seahawks are ready to do the same for Kerney.

Guess you could put me in the blessing in disguise camp. He is a solid player, but not someone who we should break the bank for.

[ro_50]

I like Kerney but Denver shouldn't break the bank for him.

If Seattle wants to overpay for him, then let them.

It appears, if the reports are true, they will do that.

[gunns]

Safety in the first ...

If we did I'd almost feel like I did when Denver got Elway.

[watermock]

You can't spend what you don't have. What's in your wallet? Ha!

[eddie mac]

The starting defensive ends in Seattle currently are Grant Wistrom and Bryce Fisher. Wistrom was ridiculously overpaid several years ago, and it looks like the Seahawks are ready to do the same for Kerney.

Guess you could put me in the blessing in disguise camp. He is a solid player, but not someone who we should break the bank for.

I actually agree. If it came down to 2 from 3 of Graham, Henry and Kerney, I'd take the first 2.

[rbackfactory80]

I actually agree. If it came down to 2 from 3 of Graham, Henry and Kerney, I'd take the first 2.

Absolutely. Graham and Henry would give our offense some much needed toughness. It would actually be nice to see a running back lower his shoulders and attack someone instead of falling down at the line. Then we keep 21 take the best available defensive player with either a safety slipping or d end and this would be a big offseason.

[eddie mac]

Absolutely. Graham and Henry would give our offense some much needed toughness. It would actually be nice to see a running back lower his shoulders and attack someone instead of falling down at the line. Then we keep 21 take the best available defensive player with either a safety slipping or d end and this would be a big offseason.

If we managed to sign Travis there'd be no need for another RB in this draft. IMO the first 4 picks should then be spread DE, DT, OL and safety. With 2 TE's who are pretty good receivers the need for 4th/5th receiver is negligible.

[chaz]

no news of graham or kerney signing on their visits today right?? so far so good....maybe we do still have a good chance!


^^optimism that i will later pay for with sheer disappointment....

[rbackfactory80]

If we managed to sign Travis there'd be no need for another RB in this draft. IMO the first 4 picks should then be spread DE, DT, OL and safety. With 2 TE's who are pretty good receivers the need for 4th/5th receiver is negligible.

Well then you must be satisfied with Bell being the number 2. I am a little nervous because of the 4 game suspension Travis already had, which I am not even sure what for. I don't think he will be a problem, but if something did happen I am not sure Bell could be the guy.

[theAPAOps5]

Well they have only been there a short time. If we hear nothing tomorrow then I will be a little more optimistic. Having them leave though was not a very encouraging thing though.

[chaz]

Well then you must be satisfied with Bell being the number 2. I am a little nervous because of the 4 game suspension Travis already had, which I am not even sure what for. I don't think he will be a problem, but if something did happen I am not sure Bell could be the guy.

bell wouldnt be the definite number two...dont count sapp out i really like what i saw out of him last year, and maybe cobbs gets healthy and makes a run...we have some good competition

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I like Kerney but Denver shouldn't break the bank for him.


If they were unwilling to overpay, they should have never brought him in for a visit. If you think enough of the guy that you have to have him, and by bringing them in on the first day it's safe to assume they did, they should have been willing to put an offer on the table that the player can't walkaway from.

[Paladin]

Maybe there are different definitions of "breaking the bank." Also, it might have been Grahams' agent who initiated the talks. I am always leary of offering a whole lot of criticism about these dealings because few outside of the FO actually know the details.

I don't think the game is up yet. Not until you hear that they have agreed to a contract with someone. Frankly, I am more optimistic about the chances of improving the team in the draft or maybe one more trade.

[eddie mac]

If they were unwilling to overpay, they should have never brought him in for a visit. If you think enough of the guy that you have to have him, and by bringing them in on the first day it's safe to assume they did, they should have been willing to put an offer on the table that the player can't walkaway from.

Herc how many players demands have we baulked at over the past few seasons??? I too thought this year would be different what with the fact we had 2 of the top 5 FA's in on the 1st day. Hope I'm wrong but it looks as if the "wont overpay strategy" remains at large. I just hope they dont lowball Travis Henry or we'll be back to square 1.

[azbroncfan]

Almost doesn't count though.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Herc how many players demands have we baulked at over the past few seasons??? I too thought this year would be different what with the fact we had 2 of the top 5 FA's in on the 1st day. Hope I'm wrong but it looks as if the "wont overpay strategy" remains at large. I just hope they dont lowball Travis Henry or we'll be back to square 1.

I thought he'd be willing to overpay too. He went outside his usual MO of not going hard after FA's the first day they are allowed to sign.

All I know is that he can't get away with that, "We're close" BS that he repeats every season. His own actions don't match that belief.

[milehimike]

Keeping my fingers crossed for Kerney. D-line should be priority #1,2 and 3. WORK. WORK,WORK, on the Dline!!!:thumbs:

[davidtkd]

hey all,

Just talked with my dad who talked to Tom Graham. Tom says that Daniel wants to come to Denver but that Denver is unable to come up with a substantial enough contract. Looks like we might be losing him. Hope I'm wrong. :(

[theAPAOps5]

Well that sucks, we'll see though.

[Dagmar]

hey all,

Just talked with my dad who talked to Tom Graham. Tom says that Daniel wants to come to Denver but that Denver is unable to come up with a substantial enough contract. Looks like we might be losing him. Hope I'm wrong. :(

Dangit!

[chaz]

hey all,

Just talked with my dad who talked to Tom Graham. Tom says that Daniel wants to come to Denver but that Denver is unable to come up with a substantial enough contract. Looks like we might be losing him. Hope I'm wrong. :(

maybe with a couple more restructures? or do you think we already offered him what we think he's worth?? either way its too bad....we suck again.

[cabronco]

Wont he accept the offer and an IOU. Dammit ! I couldnt really understand why we brought in all these guys in the first place when we couldnt really afford it.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

hey all,

Just talked with my dad who talked to Tom Graham. Tom says that Daniel wants to come to Denver but that Denver is unable to come up with a substantial enough contract. Looks like we might be losing him. Hope I'm wrong. :(

That makes me think that the leak about Dan signing on Friday was a calculated leak. They knew Denver wouldn't give him $10M in guarantees and the leak was designed to see if any other team was willing to give him that much. When Dan's agents got word that someone else would, it was time to leave Denver.

So tired of seeing this same stuff every offseason, Shanahan refuses to pay a premium for quality FAs and we get to see the bargin-basement crap brought in. This team has enough average players, it needs difference-makers.

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm not expecting much from FA, and that's especially frustrating since it appeared Shanahan was actually going hard after guys early this year. I'm sure we'll get word soon too that Henry left town.

[eddie mac]

hey all,

Just talked with my dad who talked to Tom Graham. Tom says that Daniel wants to come to Denver but that Denver is unable to come up with a substantial enough contract. Looks like we might be losing him. Hope I'm wrong. :(

If this is true then wtf all the hype about bringing these players in if they we're going to offer crappy deals??? They were bound to know the contract paremeters before getting the likes of Graham in here so why waste his time and ours with the illusional pipe dream that players will come here for a lot less money than they can get elsewhere???

[davidtkd]

maybe with a couple more restructures? or do you think we already offered him what we think he's worth?? either way its too bad....we suck again.

Hey Chaz,

That's exactly what Tom told my dad. He said that Denver would have to have more contracts restructured in order to sqeeze Dan in. That doesn't boad well for bringing in Dan or any other top flight FA. I think what Herc said holds a lot of merit.

[theAPAOps5]

That or maybe he thinks he is worth more than what is sane. I mean yeah its great to snag some key FA's but its not worth strapping yourself with the cap in the future for now. What if he really is asking for 15 mil guarenteed. I mean at some point you have to have a sane cut-off point.

[eddie mac]

maybe with a couple more restructures? or do you think we already offered him what we think he's worth?? either way its too bad....we suck again.

It's got **** all to do with cap room and it hasn't for the last 2-3 seasons.

Shanahan and Bowlen continually baulk at the market prices but I like Herc thought this year would be different. As every hour passes it's becoming more likely the cheapskate strategy remains.

[chaz]

If this is true then wtf all the hype about bringing these players in if they we're going to offer crappy deals??? They were bound to know the contract paremeters before getting the likes of Graham in here so why waste his time and ours with the illusional pipe dream that players will come here for a lot less money than they can get elsewhere???

preach it man, thats what im saying...we cannot be so dilusional to think top FAs are just going to "like" denver and give up millions they could get elsewhere...if shanahan was going to go hard after players this year i really thought he was going to strike quickly and get some deals done.....lot of disappoinment right now.

[Steve Prefontaine]

What do you want Denver to do? They don't have nearly as much to spend as other teams because of the cap.

I'm sure they thought with Graham's ties to Colorado that maybe they could get on a hometown discount. I think the same applies to Kerney with his ties to Bill Johnson.

To be honest, I'm glad didn't overpay for these 2 guys.

Regarding impact players, don't forget the whole draft thing coming up. Denver has 4 picks on the first day.

[cutthemdown]

how much is a blocking TE with avg recieving skills really worth? What we need is a friggin D End and a RB.

[chaz]

i kinda feel like we're just a lame duck waiting for the inevitable event of them signing elsewhere for $$$

[eddie mac]

Hey Chaz,

That's exactly what Tom told my dad. He said that Denver would have to have more contracts restructured in order to sqeeze Dan in. That doesn't boad well for bringing in Dan or any other top flight FA. I think what Herc said holds a lot of merit.

No offense David but that's bull-****. This team can create upwards of $10m in cap room at the drop of a hat, furthermore Graham could be had for as little as a $2m cap hit this year if the deal is 5-6 years and the bonuses are structured properly.

[eddie mac]

What do you want Denver to do? They don't have nearly as much to spend as other teams because of the cap.

I'm sure they thought with Graham's ties to Colorado that maybe they could get on a hometown discount. I think the same applies to Kerney with his ties to Bill Johnson.

To be honest, I'm glad didn't overpay for these 2 guys.

Regarding impact players, don't forget the whole draft thing coming up. Denver has 4 picks on the first day.


For the last time it's got nothing to do with the cap. This comes down to guarantees and cash in the form of signing bonuses.

[Steve Prefontaine]

It's got **** all to do with cap room and it hasn't for the last 2-3 seasons.

Shanahan and Bowlen continually baulk at the market prices but I like Herc thought this year would be different. As every hour passes it's becoming more likely the cheapskate strategy remains.
If Denver had a cheapskate strategy, wouldn't they have like $20M in cap room right now?

I think the free agent disappointments are starting to wear on you. It's understandable, but I wouldn't say Denver is cheap.

[eddie mac]

how much is a blocking TE with avg recieving skills really worth? What we need is a friggin D End and a RB.

Didn't they bring in those exact 3 players on the first day???

As for Graham the Broncos must have felt he was worth a lot considering he was the first name on their get list.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

What do you want Denver to do? They don't have nearly as much to spend as other teams because of the cap.


This not a cap issue, just like Eddie Mac said. They can get the cap room if they want, they now choose not to restructure guys to create the room.

[davidtkd]

ok, had to ask dad some more questions. First, I asked him why he would even entertain Oakland. He said he didn't know, but that the thinking is that this could be Dan's last chance at a big contract in his career and that he has to look at cashing in now. He also said that Dan wanted to come here so bad that he would even be ready to sign a 'dumb contract' just so he could play for Denver.

For the contract junkies out there. Tom said that they offered Dan a "Meyer's type contract"??? Not sure what that means.

More if I get it.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

how much is a great blocking TE with excellent recieving skills really worth? .

Fixed it for you

[Hercules Rockefeller]

If Denver had a cheapskate strategy, wouldn't they have like $20M in cap room right now?

I think the free agent disappointments are starting to wear on you. It's understandable, but I wouldn't say Denver is cheap.

You're confusing the salary cap number with their payroll. They don't want to pay out the large bonuses that would be required to bring these guys in.

[eddie mac]

If Denver had a cheapskate strategy, wouldn't they have like $20M in cap room right now?

I think the free agent disappointments are starting to wear on you. It's understandable, but I wouldn't say Denver is cheap.

The cap is low because we back-end every contract we give (high base salaries) plus we make numerous high-cost mistakes like Plummer (Cap hit $8.6m)

It's up front cash and guarantees I'm referring to when I'm calling this organisation cheap-skate.

[chaz]

i know we've been wronged in FA before but i seem to think that daniel graham as proven he has skills and is just entering his prime, so isnt that worth the risk????

[davidtkd]

No offense David but that's bull-****. This team can create upwards of $10m in cap room at the drop of a hat, furthermore Graham could be had for as little as a $2m cap hit this year if the deal is 5-6 years and the bonuses are structured properly.

None taken EM :thumbs:

I am nobodies cap pro, I leave that to you all. I'm just trying to provide some info from the inside is all.

[eddie mac]

i know we've been wronged in FA before but i seem to think that daniel graham as proven he has skills and is just entering his prime, so isnt that worth the risk????

My take is he adds at least 7 points a game to our offensive production in terms of redzone blocking and receiving. This is a huge fvcking loss if he signs elsewhere.

[Steve Prefontaine]

For the last time it's got nothing to do with the cap. This comes down to guarantees and cash in the form of signing bonuses.
I respectfully disagree. Bonuses (signing, workout, ect) count against the cap also. I'm not sure why you are ignoring that.

I guess we'll see after Graham and Kerney sign their contracts with Seattle or whoever. Then you can explain how Denver could make it work under their current situation.

[Steve Prefontaine]

You're confusing the salary cap number with their payroll. They don't want to pay out the large bonuses that would be required to bring these guys in.
Maybe I am confused. I thought that Bonus money counts against the cap also. If it doesn't, I apologize.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I'm surprised we haven't seen anything done to Rod's contract so far. I don't care what he's done in the past, no WR deserves to be one of the Top 5 highest paid WRs when he had 500 yds last year. Take the paycut or find somewhere else to play next year.

[chaz]

ok, had to ask dad some more questions. First, I asked him why he would even entertain Oakland. He said he didn't know, but that the thinking is that this could be Dan's last chance at a big contract in his career and that he has to look at cashing in now. He also said that Dan wanted to come here so bad that he would even be ready to sign a 'dumb contract' just so he could play for Denver.

For the contract junkies out there. Tom said that they offered Dan a "Meyer's type contract"??? Not sure what that means.

More if I get it.

what is a dumb contract? does that mean something or just that it would be dumb to sign it?

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Maybe I am confused. I thought that Bonus money counts against the cap also. If it doesn't, I apologize.

Bonus money is spread out over the life of the contract for cap purposes, so hypothetically the Broncos could give Graham a $10M bonus this year on a 5-year contract, and it would count as a $2M cap hit each year of the contract.

[chaz]

I'm surprised we haven't seen anything done to Rod's contract so far. I don't care what he's done in the past, no WR deserves to be one of the Top 5 highest paid WRs when he had 500 yds last year. Take the paycut or find somewhere else to play next year.

ya no **** get it done teddy--shouldnt be taking this long

[davidtkd]

My take is he adds at least 7 points a game to our offensive production in terms of redzone blocking and receiving. This is a huge f***ing loss if he signs elsewhere.

I totally agree with this. For once we have a low risk/high reward guy and we can't pull the trigger. Everyone else has issues: Kerney, older might be on the downside. Henry, might be fragile. Willis, off field issues. Green (for a moment) puts the rock on the ground. A guy who wants badly to play in Orange and Blue (Bly doesn't?? so says another thread).

I for one am tired of retreads. I want someone who can enhance our game. Can enhance our soon to be newly restructured O-Line. Gives our new(ish) QB another viable target.

What the h#ll's not to like???

[SoCalBronco]

The cap is low because we back-end every contract we give (high base salaries) plus we make numerous high-cost mistakes like Plummer (Cap hit $8.6m)

It's up front cash and guarantees I'm referring to when I'm calling this organisation cheap-skate.

I dont think we are cheap skates by any means. You mentioned the high cost mistakes that we have made, thats one aspect of it, the other aspect is that we are constantly restructuring and leveraging from year to year, pushing it back, and then later being forced to cut guys and take a hit or swallow the effects of the restructures when they come due. It's a never ending cycle, we are always going to be somewhat up against the ceiling (although this year its not too bad) this way. We are always either right at the figure or a little below it (last year it was a bit worse, and we had to get rid of three starters). In any case, we never find ourselves with a great deal of room at the outset at least in part because of this. So its legitimate for the team to be concerned with the idea of "just a few more restructures here and there to fit Dan in", because its going to perpetuate the cycle.

[atomicbloke]

So the the excitement of the first 3 days of FA only flattered to deceive?

From potentially signing Graham, Kerney, stud RB, and having bargaining chips in Tatum, Jake and Foster....

we end up with....

no name OG, an old man at DT, an above avg CB who will probably force a trade to the skins..... and also lost Tatum, Foster, 6th round pick and Jake....

Next time, I'll remember not to get too excited about FA.....

[eddie mac]

Maybe I am confused. I thought that Bonus money counts against the cap also. If it doesn't, I apologize.

It does EC but I'll try and break this down for you. You say it's because of the cap I say it isn't and here's why.

If Denver offered Graham a 6 year contract at $30m with $10m in guarantees here's how I'd break it down so it hardly hurts the cap at all in the first 2 years.

$10m signing bonus, $6m year 1, $4m year 2.

Year 1 base $800k Prorated SB $1m = Cap hit $1.5m ( we take away 300k for the 53rd player

Year 2 base $1m Prorated 1st SB $1m, Prorated 2nd SB $800k cap hit $2.5m

Year 3 base $2.5m

Year 4 base $3m roster bonus $2m

Year 5 base $4m

Year 6 base $5m roster bonus $1.5m

Which means that Graham gets his $5m a year, $10m guaranteed and only counts $1.5m against this year's cap. So tell me now it's about cap room???

[16-JakE-16]

I'm still miffed at the infatuation with Graham. Tony Sheffler has shown great potential and any other backup can block. Daniel Graham's difference in the running game would be negligible at best.

On the other hand, if the team is unable to get a premier defensive linemen, the season is hopeless. Many of us are well aware it is the team's biggest problem, by far. Dre Bly will look like Roc Alexander unless a top linemen is brought in. At this point in time I can only hope the front office does what is needed, otherwise we'll be in the same position next year.

[davidtkd]

what is a dumb contract? does that mean something or just that it would be dumb to sign it?

I take it to mean signing one that would not be in his best interest. I would love to move back home to Denver, but I'll be damned if I take a job there that pays less than a suitor would elsewhere.

[eddie mac]

I dont think we are cheap skates by any means. You mentioned the high cost mistakes that we have made, thats one aspect of it, the other aspect is that we are constantly restructuring and leveraging from year to year, pushing it back, and then later being forced to cut guys and take a hit or swallow the effects of the restructures when they come do. It's a never ending cycle, we are always going to be somewhat up against the ceiling (although this year its not too bad) this way. We are always either right at the figure or a little below it (last year it was a bit worse, and we had to get rid of three starters). In any case, we never find ourselves with a great deal of room at the outset at least in part because of this. So its legitimate for the team to be concerned with the idea of "just a few more restructures here and there to fit Dan in", because its going to perpetuate the cycle.

In terms of incoming free-agents when's the last time we dished out a decent sized SB??? Probably Ian Gold another mistake.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I dont think we are cheap skates by any means. You mentioned the high cost mistakes that we have made, thats one aspect of it, the other aspect is that we are constantly restructuring and leveraging from year to year, pushing it back, and then later being forced to cut guys and take a hit or swallow the effects of the restructures when they come do. It's a never ending cycle, we are always going to be somewhat up against the ceiling (although this year its not too bad) this way. We are always either right at the figure or a little below it (last year it was a bit worse, and we had to get rid of three starters). In any case, we never find ourselves with a great deal of room at the outset at least in part because of this. So its legitimate for the team to be concerned with the idea of "just a few more restructures here and there to fit Dan in", because its going to perpetuate the cycle.

They're always up against the cap, yet they haven't had an offseason where they spent a large amount of money since '01. It's getting old watching them add no one, yet never have a year where they're $10-12M under. This has been an average team for years, and yet they're never in a position to add quality free agent talent.

Now they're either cheap because they refuse to have a large payroll, or Shanny's lost his sack and is afraid for another high-priced mistake, and is using the lack of cap room as an excuse for the lack of moves.

[eddie mac]

I'm still miffed at the infatuation with Graham. Tony Sheffler has shown great potential and any other backup can block. Daniel Graham's difference in the running game would be negligible at best.

On the other hand, if the team is unable to get a premier defensive linemen, the season is hopeless. Many of us are well aware it is the team's biggest problem, by far. Dre Bly will look like Roc Alexander unless a top linemen is brought in. At this point in time I can only hope the front office does what is needed, otherwise we'll be in the same position next year.

You show me a Premier Defensive Lineman that's available and we'll bring him in. We all have our favourite players in the league and positions and I reckon Scheffler could be a decent TE in this league but this offense needs 2 and one who can block in the redzone.

[chaz]

we need difference makers, i dont care if they're d-line TE RB we need to take whatever we can get and right now we're striking out....not good. pony up bowlen and shell out the bonus for a top tier FA to come in and put this team over the top.

[Paladin]

Good points, EM. It has been my contention that all the BS about cap space is just wasted breath. The Broncos can get whomever they want and can get the dollars to fit. That is not the issue, IMHO. Further, there is not a damm thing anyone here can do about signing anyone at all. Further still, money may not be the issue at signings, although it may have to do with the structure of contracts. AND further still, there can be other intangibles such as home town, coaches, etc. Even then, we, the adoring public, can simply hope that something good happens. In the meantime, Even if Bly wants to go to the 'Skins - an assertion based on rumor - there could be something good that can come out of that, as well.

I am not doing a Pollyanna thing here, but I am amazed at the over-concern expressed about the cap and dollars and so on, when not a one of us - that I know of - has a job dependent upon the dollars and cap space issues, and so in.

Let me also assert that I am not at all certain that the Broncos are out of the running for both Graham and Kerney. In fact, I think it speaks to the character of the man who follows through with visits he had promised to make. Maybe we need to trust the integrity of the players. After all, these are smart people, represented by smart people. And the Broncos' FO staff are also smart people. They are above the pay grades of most of us here, and I say, let them do their jobs. I dont give a hoot about the details.....

[Rascal]

I'm getting antsy with the fact we haven't heard anything about Henry who probably will be leaving tonight, and we still haven't heard anything about kerney or Graham.

[SoCalBronco]

In terms of incoming free-agents when's the last time we dished out a decent sized SB??? Probably Ian Gold another mistake.

It's not just FAs.

We are carrying several fairly big salaries. Champ is getting paid and recieved a large bonus, the same with Al. You mentioned Ian, Warren got a nice bonus last year, Lepsis just got a big deal, Hamilton was extended I think last year, until we recoup that money we are paying for Jake, Rod is getting paid a large base salary, Javon just got a 10m bonus and will be on a 40m deal. I dont recall the effect on our cap, but when we cut Pryce we took a hit at least last year, I don't know if it was bifurcated so that we'd be on the hook this year as well. Cutler as the 11th pick got something like 11m in guaranteed money and pretty soon his base salaries are going to get large as well.

Add in the fact that we are constantly restructuring just to do a little bit of business in FA every year and there is going to be a destructive cycle there. Granted, we are not the free spenders that we used to be about 5 years ago, but the combination of this constant leveraging here and there to just squeeze in a decent FA or two the last couple years when we started out the game at or near the ceiling and the big salaries already on the team will create this effect. And what is worse is that EVEN WITHOUT GETTING Graham or Kerney in the fold (yet), we have already continued to perpetuate this problem this offseason, we restructured Champ, Warren, trying to do it with Rod, this is all going to be a problem in the future, the room we are trying to create now is going to just create this same problem over and over, esp. if we have converted it into a new bonus that will have to be amortized over a number of years.

[atomicbloke]

It's not just FAs.

We are carrying several fairly big salaries. Champ is getting paid and recieved a large bonus, the same with Al. You mentioned Ian, Warren got a nice bonus last year, Lepsis just got a big deal, Hamilton was extended I think last year, until we recoup that money we are paying for Jake, Rod is getting paid a large base salary, Javon just got a 10m bonus and will be on a 40m deal. I dont recall the effect on our cap, but when we cut Pryce we took a hit at least last year, I don't know if it was bifurcated so that we'd be on the hook this year as well. Cutler as the 11th pick got something like 11m in guaranteed money and pretty soon his base salaries are going to get large as well.

Add in the fact that we are constantly restructuring just to do a little bit of business in FA every year and there is going to be a destructive cycle there. Granted, we are not the free spenders that we used to be about 5 years ago, but the combination of this constant leveraging here and there to just squeeze in a decent FA or two the last couple years when we started out the game at or near the ceiling and the big salaries already on the team will create this effect. And what is worse is that EVEN WITHOUT GETTING Graham or Kerney in the fold (yet), we have already continued to perpetuate this problem this offseason, we restructured Champ, Warren, trying to do it with Rod, this is all going to be a problem in the future, the room we are trying to create now is going to just create this same problem over and over, esp. if we have converted it into a new bonus that will have to be amortized over a number of years.

Which means that very soon, maybe in 2 or 3 seasons, we'll face what the Titans faced the last few seasons. We will have to release most of our stars to get under the cap and go into rebuilding mode through the draft.....

That means our window of opportunity for the SB is closing fast... very fast.... it has to be this year or next year before the inevitable salary cup purge...

And hence, we desperately need to somehow got some FAs to get us over the top....

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Which means that very soon, maybe in 2 or 3 seasons, we'll face what the Titans faced the last few seasons. We will have to release most of our stars to get under the cap and go into rebuilding mode through the draft.....

That means our window of opportunity for the SB is closing fast... very fast.... it has to be this year or next year before the inevitable salary cup purge...

And hence, we desperately need to somehow got some FAs to get us over the top....

It's a cycle, they'll never be in cap hell, yet it appears they will never be significantly under in the near future either. They will not have to do what the Titans did. Rod will almost certainly be off the cap after the '08 season, Jake is off after this season, they'll be ok just not great.

[SoCalBronco]

Which means that very soon, maybe in 2 or 3 seasons, we'll face what the Titans faced the last few seasons. We will have to release most of our stars to get under the cap and go into rebuilding mode through the draft.....

That means our window of opportunity for the SB is closing fast... very fast.... it has to be this year or next year before the inevitable salary cup purge...

And hence, we desperately need to somehow got some FAs to get us over the top....

No, I dont think we will ever face the real cap hell that the Titans and 49ers faced, we do a good job of making sure we dont get completely overwhelmed by the thing, Mike Bluem and Sundy do a good job of that, we have never had to face that problem once and they project stuff out over time, so they plan to avoid disaster, but its just that we always find ourselves with only a little bit of room to do business and we are forced to be creative just to get small things done.

[Rascal]

Shouldn't we have something like 10+ mil in cap space now? Warren (2.5 mil), Bailey (3 mil), Plummer (5 mil), Rod (no reports but it should be 2 mil when done), + whatever we had to start? Granted Bly and Wilkerson took up some, but we should still have a good amount of cap space.

[cabronco]

Whats the hold up with the restructuring of Rod Smith ? I mean not to play hard ball with the guy, because he's one of my all time fav Broncos, but shouldnt it of been done by now so they know what they're working with money wise ?

[Broncojef]

Whats the hold up with the restructuring of Rod Smith ? I mean not to play hard ball with the guy, because he's one of my all time fav Broncos, but shouldnt it of been done by now so they know what they're working with money wise ?

Seriously $8.5 Mill or whatever he's scheduled to make is just stupid. Give him $3.5 Mill and take the savings along with the other restructures to get Kerney, Graham, and Henry. I mean really lets get this figured out and make a push guys, comeon!!!!

[sirhcyennek81]

I will laugh tomorrow when we all get up in the AM with Kerney, Henry and Graham holding up Bronco jerseys.


:Broncos:

[Rascal]

I will laugh tomorrow when we all get up in the AM with Kerney, Henry and Graham holding up Bronco jerseys.


:Broncos:

Laugh? I'll be dancing in the streets.

[eddie mac]

Whats the hold up with the restructuring of Rod Smith ? I mean not to play hard ball with the guy, because he's one of my all time fav Broncos, but shouldnt it of been done by now so they know what they're working with money wise ?

Most likely because it's not a restructuring more like a pay cut. You want him to have a $10-$11m cap hit next year.

[eddie mac]

I will laugh tomorrow when we all get up in the AM with Kerney, Henry and Graham holding up Bronco jerseys.


:Broncos:

I'd fly all the way to Denver and kiss Shanahan's ass.:giggle:

[Garcia Bronco]

you people dogging Rod Smith need to **** off.

[Clockwork Orange]

I'd fly all the way to Denver and kiss Shanahan's ass.:giggle:

I'm gonna hold you to that. ;D

[sirhcyennek81]

with early FA, best just to wait and see, if PK likes it here, he will sign here, same with graham and henry and any other FA. This is my second favorite time of year besides the draft.


:Broncos:

[TheDave]

Looks like the panic is starting to set in... Took a little longer this year, but were getting there ;D

[Killericon]

Looks like the panic is starting to set in... Took a little longer this year, but were getting there ;D

I'll be panicked if we actually pay Graham what he can fetch on this market.

[Stormontheplains]

[QUOTE=

Now they're either cheap because they refuse to have a large payroll, or Shanny's lost his sack and is afraid for another high-priced mistake, and is using the lack of cap room as an excuse for the lack of moves.[/QUOTE]

Hey dude, how can you say we dont have a large payroll when we are at the salary cap every year??????? I see teams 20 mill below the cap every year, they are the ones that are cheap!!!!!!!!!!! CRACK SMOKER

[fdf]

Which means that Graham gets his $5m a year, $10m guaranteed and only counts $1.5m against this year's cap. So tell me now it's about cap room???

That's the Redskins approach and it was Denver's approach during the Carter/IHOP/Griese debacles. All it does is move the problem around. It sounds great until Graham is injured in year three and retires and 6 million hits the cap all at once. Denver spent years getting out from under the load from bad FA signings and bad bonus signings for Griese. We now confront the same situation with Plummer. He's leaving and we're holding the cap bag.

Of course we could sign all of these guys and then watch the team melt down as the bonuses hit the cap with tons of dead money in the next few years. The front office is trying to avoid the mistakes that damaged the franchise terribly since the superbowl.

It's my opinion that the only way to build a championship team is thru consistent good drafting. You own those guys for several years and they don't take up much cap space. Once they're in free agency, you're robbing Peter to pay Paul to build a team. Can't be done.

I'm heartened by the last two drafts. We stopped trying to score on projects with virtually every pick. But if we blow up the team with big bonuses today, that only feels good for a couple of years.

[cabronco]

you people dogging Rod Smith need to **** off.

Im not dogging Rod Smith, he's about the last person that I would ask to take a pay cut, but reading news reports for awhile, saying they expect to redo Rod's deal, or by taking the pay cut..it would lead me to believe he's just saying No, or they havent reached any kind of fair ground yet.

[BigPlayShay]

I'm pretty sure that the Free Agents that we have signed over the past few years have visited other teams before settling on Denver.

I'll start panicking when these guys actually sign with other teams. Our biggest needs right now IMO are RB and DE. Graham would be nice, I would love to see a hometown boy play for the Broncos, but I will not be broken-hearted if he goes elsewhere.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I will laugh tomorrow when we all get up in the AM with Kerney, Henry and Graham holding up Bronco jerseys.


:Broncos:

I still think there's a shot at Graham because of his hometown connection. As long as Henry is in town, there's still a shot at him. I would be floored if they signed Kerney, I don't think he leaves Seattle without a contract.

They can still get all of them, it would just be a huge surprise if they did.

[cutthemdown]

Didn't they bring in those exact 3 players on the first day???

As for Graham the Broncos must have felt he was worth a lot considering he was the first name on their get list.

what good does bringing them in do the team? I have faith we will sign a dlineman and a rb. My point is Graham is not as important.

[TheDave]

I'm pretty sure that the Free Agents that we have signed over the past few years have visited other teams before settling on Denver.

I'll start panicking when these guys actually sign with other teams. Our biggest needs right now IMO are RB and DE. Graham would be nice, I would love to see a hometown boy play for the Broncos, but I will not be broken-hearted if he goes elsewhere.


Both of which we can fulfil in the draft if we need to... We are less than 3 days into FA this is just the typical OM offseason panic ROFL!

[BroncoInferno]

I'm still miffed at the infatuation with Graham. Tony Sheffler has shown great potential and any other backup can block. Daniel Graham's difference in the running game would be negligible at best.

It baffles me how people undervalue blocking at the TE position. It is crucial to a strong running game, and the very reason guys like Putzier don't last in Denver.

Saying "any other backup can block" would be like a Ravens fan saying, "hell, why pay Jonathan Ogden when we can just plug a cheap backup in to do the job?" Graham is like an Ogden or Walter Jones when it comes to blocking from the TE position, and the difference between the quality of blocking we'd get from Graham versus "any other backup" is massive.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I'm pretty sure that the Free Agents that we have signed over the past few years have visited other teams before settling on Denver.


You're also talking about lesser-tiered free agents, ones that usually don't have multiple teams who are willing to increase their bids to get a guy they want. Graham and Kerney are not the same caliber players that the Broncos have brought in for visits over the past few offseasons.

[BroncoInferno]

I'm afraid we are going to end up empty handed in terms of the top targets. With our tenuous cap situation coupled with an inflated market, it doesn't seem likely that anyone is going to be able to sign top-tiered FAs without over paying. It seems the goal is to get both Kerney and Graham. That would suggest there is at the least the money to get one of them. Perhaps rather than trying to land both at the risk of getting neither, we should play it a little more realistically and increase our bids to whomever is deemed the most desired by the front office. Or maybe increase bids to both and sign whoever comes to terms first.

[baja]

<b>If Denver had a cheapskate strategy, wouldn't they have like $20M in cap room right now? </b>

I think the free agent disappointments are starting to wear on you. It's understandable, but I wouldn't say Denver is cheap.

Exactly!

Although I think the problem has a lot to do with bad signings like I Hop, Greise and now Plummer along with the fact we have not, with the exception of last year, drafted very well which caused us to lose the cheap rookie deals that populate many teams that do draft well.

[atomicbloke]

Both of which we can fulfil in the draft if we need to... We are less than 3 days into FA this is just the typical OM offseason panic ROFL!

And at this time last year, we were linked with several FA D-linemen. We didn't land any of them and the mane went into panic mode.

As it turned out, we panicked for a good reason.

The lack of pass rush hurt us severely, we finished 9-7 and missed the playoffs.

If the mane is panicking again these days, it is for a very good reason.

[atomicbloke]

I'm afraid we are going to end up empty handed in terms of the top targets. With our tenuous cap situation coupled with an inflated market, it doesn't seem likely that anyone is going to be able to sign top-tiered FAs without over paying. It seems the goal is to get both Kerney and Graham. That would suggest there is at the least the money to get one of them. Perhaps rather than trying to land both at the risk of getting neither, we should play it a little more realistically and increase our bids to whomever is deemed the most desired by the front office. Or maybe increase bids to both and sign whoever comes to terms first.

In that case, I would prefer Kerney. But I don't see him leaving Seattle.

[Broncojef]

you people dogging Rod Smith need to **** off.

$8.5mill???? get real

[TheDave]

And at this time last year, we were linked with several FA D-linemen. We didn't land any of them and the mane went into panic mode.

As it turned out, we panicked for a good reason.

The lack of pass rush hurt us severely, we finished 9-7 and missed the playoffs.

If the mane is panicking again these days, it is for a very good reason.

Not one part of what you said was true. We were not linked to "several" D-Lineman. Reason why? because we Blitzed more than anyone in the league and were having no problem putting preasure on the QB. Up until the AFC chanpionship game that is. As a matter of fact the majority of posters were fine watching Pryce walk.

It's three days into FA and already we have traded for one of the top corners and added depth to the O-Line. Relax, there is a long ways to go.

[Steve Prefontaine]

It does EC but I'll try and break this down for you. You say it's because of the cap I say it isn't and here's why.

If Denver offered Graham a 6 year contract at $30m with $10m in guarantees here's how I'd break it down so it hardly hurts the cap at all in the first 2 years.

$10m signing bonus, $6m year 1, $4m year 2.

Year 1 base $800k Prorated SB $1m = Cap hit $1.5m ( we take away 300k for the 53rd player

Year 2 base $1m Prorated 1st SB $1m, Prorated 2nd SB $800k cap hit $2.5m

Year 3 base $2.5m

Year 4 base $3m roster bonus $2m

Year 5 base $4m

Year 6 base $5m roster bonus $1.5m

Which means that Graham gets his $5m a year, $10m guaranteed and only counts $1.5m against this year's cap. So tell me now it's about cap room???
Thanks for the example EM. That is exactly how I understand the cap to work, but it's good to see your example broken down.

Like I said before, I guess we'll really have to see how the contracts are structured that Graham and Kerney finally land. If they are structured in a similar way to your example and backloaded all to hell, then I agree that the Broncos were being cheap.

But even then the question remains - Is Graham really worth that big of a contract? Yes, the market value dictates what a player can get paid but it doesn't dictate what they should get paid. If Graham gets the kind of money that you outlaid above, I would say he is not worth it and I'm glad the Broncos passed on him.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of adding Kerney and Graham, but only at the right price. I don't want to give them over-the-top contracts just because they are the best free agents available at their positions this year. That is just a recipe for salary cap hell in the future.

Graham is a "nice to have" player, but we still have Scheffler so it's not like it's a position we need to fill. Kerney would definitely fill a big void, but we still have the 4 picks in the first 3 rounds of the draft to address the d-line.

[rovolution]

That's the Redskins approach and it was Denver's approach during the Carter/IHOP/Griese debacles. All it does is move the problem around. It sounds great until Graham is injured in year three and retires and 6 million hits the cap all at once. Denver spent years getting out from under the load from bad FA signings and bad bonus signings for Griese. We now confront the same situation with Plummer. He's leaving and we're holding the cap bag.

Of course we could sign all of these guys and then watch the team melt down as the bonuses hit the cap with tons of dead money in the next few years. The front office is trying to avoid the mistakes that damaged the franchise terribly since the superbowl.

It's my opinion that the only way to build a championship team is thru consistent good drafting. You own those guys for several years and they don't take up much cap space. Once they're in free agency, you're robbing Peter to pay Paul to build a team. Can't be done.

I'm heartened by the last two drafts. We stopped trying to score on projects with virtually every pick. But if we blow up the team with big bonuses today, that only feels good for a couple of years.


Case In Point: The Tennessee Titans. After their glory years in the late 90's early 2000's, they went through that huge salary cap purging and cut all their good players like Eddie George, Samari Rolle, Derrick Mason, etc...Thats why they have soo much room now. They are just recovering from all those bad decisions they made financially.

Commend Shanahan and crew for not having to resort to something like that.

[Atlas]

I think everyone is over valueing this guy. He isn't a top 10 TE in the NFL, He isn't even the best TE on his former team. He is just the best TE in FA!! The guy is in a sellers market and someone is really going to over pay for this guy. More power to him. I'm just glad Shanny has showen restraint.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=2787825

5. One interesting theory circulating on the Jake Plummer trade to Tampa Bay is Mike Shanahan wanted to make sure he didn't end up in Oakland. Had the Broncos cut him, Plummer could have signed in Houston or Oakland as a starting quarterback. Plummer said he filed his retirement papers Friday and he's definitely done. The Bucs own his rights thanks to a trade for a conditional pick in 2008. For now, Jake the Snake is Jake with a rake working around his home.

6. The Seahawks and Broncos are the big players now. They are battling over tight end Daniel Graham and defensive end Patrick Kerney. The Broncos may struggle to get deals completed because it lacks cap room. The Seahawks had Kerney, Graham and Broncos guard Cooper Carlisle in town Sunday. Let the negotiations begin.

[fontaine]

They're always up against the cap, yet they haven't had an offseason where they spent a large amount of money since '01. It's getting old watching them add no one, yet never have a year where they're $10-12M under. This has been an average team for years, and yet they're never in a position to add quality free agent talent.

Now they're either cheap because they refuse to have a large payroll, or Shanny's lost his sack and is afraid for another high-priced mistake, and is using the lack of cap room as an excuse for the lack of moves.


I can understand your frustration but Shanahan signed Champ to a huge deal which made him the highest paid CB in the game even with Nate Clements amazing deal recently. Plus we also signed Warren last year which gave him one of the most lucrative deals for a DT at that time.

Frankly, I don't give a damn whether we sign aging one/two year free agent mercs like Kerney/Henry etc. They are just short term fixes.

The best way to the SuperBowl is still through the draft and not splashing out big money in FA.

We haven't made much noise in that matter because our drafting has sucked, plain and simple.

[watermock]

I would hate to cut Rod, but 8.5 this year? We could of gotten Stallworth for a fraction of that. He seems to have his hamstring problems contained somewhat. I'm sorry, Rod isn't even worth half that amount now, and I'm as big a fan of his as anyone.

Like they say in the Costra Nostra...It wasn't personal...just business.

[fontaine]

I would hate to cut Rod, but 8.5 this year? We could of gotten Stallworth for a fraction of that. He seems to have his hamstring problems contained somewhat. I'm sorry, Rod isn't even worth half that amount now, and I'm as big a fan of his as anyone.

Like they say in the Costra Nostra...It wasn't personal...just business.


It's Cosa Nostra, capeesh?

:~ohyah!:

[watermock]

You should know!

[eddie mac]

I can understand your frustration but Shanahan signed Champ to a huge deal which made him the highest paid CB in the game even with Nate Clements amazing deal recently. Plus we also signed Warren last year which gave him one of the most lucrative deals for a DT at that time.

Frankly, I don't give a damn whether we sign aging one/two year free agent mercs like Kerney/Henry etc. They are just short term fixes.

The best way to the SuperBowl is still through the draft and not splashing out big money in FA.

We haven't made much noise in that matter because our drafting has sucked, plain and simple.

You've hit the nail on the head there but in hindsight it's the Broncos woeful innability to add impact players via the draft that means they have to shore up via free agency and waste money on average players who dont perform anywhere near their pay bracket.

[watermock]

Denver didn't lay out 22 million guaranteed for Champ. It was 16 I believe.

[fontaine]

You should know!

As the joke goes: Italian guy walks up to an attractive girl in the bar and says:

"Hi, I've noticed you've got the sultry great looks of someone from the Mediterrenean. Do you have any Italian in you?"

Girl says: "No I actually I don't."

Guys replies: "That's too bad, would you like some Italian in you?"

[fontaine]

Denver didn't lay out 22 million guaranteed for Champ. It was 16 I believe.

Clements gets $8million a year, Champ gets $9million.

You've hit the nail on the head there but in hindsight it's the Broncos woeful innability to add impact players via the draft that means they have to shore up via free agency and waste money on average players who dont perform anywhere near their pay bracket.

No, they don't have to! That's my point. ^5

I say forget about overpaying for average or over the hill players. But that's just me. A couple of additions for depth, maybe Henry and the rest for the draft. Maybe it's just me but I'd rather lock up our younger players like Fox/Marshall (if he gets it done) etc rather than spending it on 1-2 year fixes like Kerney who'll only take snaps away from any DE we draft and Dumvervil.

It's funny but a lot of people we've looked at so far are the same guys that people on this board (including me) wanted here a while back when they were FA or available in trades.

Thomas Jones, Ahman, Graham (when he was available via trade), Wilkinson, all these guys were available in FA except for Graham and were touted in this board as good additions two/three years ago. Especially when their value was cheaper but apart from a few good trades our FO waits till we screw up in the draft to address these needs and does it when these guys have gotten older or more expensive.

[-Slap-]

In that case, I would prefer Kerney. But I don't see him leaving Seattle.

Probably not. They overpaid Kerney a few years ago when his name was Grant Wistrom.