Bly over Foxworth

[crazyhorse]

Is the upgrade from Foxworth to Bly worth 2 players and a draft pick?

Just curious?



disclaimer: This is a simple question. It is not intended to be smack.

[eddie mac]

Time will tell. Neither player was expected to start in a Bronco uniform this year anyway

[theAPAOps5]

Well the Broncos were going to cut Foster anyways so he might as well have been thrown in. That leaves the pick which was a fifth I believe and FumBell. The 5th is not much to bank on and Tatum lost the coaches faith. I think it was worth it.

[eddie mac]

Is the upgrade from Foxworth to Bly worth 2 players and a draft pick?

Just curious?



disclaimer: This is a simple question. It is not intended to be smack.

BTW the draft pick is almost neglible as its just 14-15 spots on the board cos we got their early 6th.

[crazyhorse]

Well the Broncos were going to cut Foster anyways so he might as well have been thrown in. That leaves the pick which was a fifth I believe and FumBell. The 5th is not much to bank on and Tatum lost the coaches faith. I think it was worth it.

As far as the pick, wasn't it your fifth for thier 6th?

[crazyhorse]

BTW the draft pick is almost neglible as its just 14-15 spots on the board cos we got their early 6th.

Beat me to it.

[crazyhorse]

Who will replace Foster? Is there someone on the roster?

[theAPAOps5]

Your a poet and didn't know it!!!!

Eric Pears and Adam Meadows are going to compete for it. I also think the Broncos might address OL in the Draft and maybe FA. We are also losing Carlisle to FA so we need to replenish a little.

[Kaylore]

Foster sucks and would have been cut at the end of camp. We swapped our low fifth for their very high sixth which amounts to a few points on the draft value board. So really it was Bly for Tatum and some garbage. Nope, not too expensive.

[elsid13]

Personnel I not overly excited about the move, I would have like given Foxworth and Paymah a chance. But both Tbell and Foster were on thier way out, so at least we go a veteran player and some cap flexibility

[BroncoInferno]

I think it's a pretty obvious upgrade. Foxworth only has a few starts under his belt, while Bly is a proven playmaker with around 50 turnovers in his career. That is precisely what we want opposite Champ, as the extra activity he'll receive will also result in more opportunities to force TOs.

Plus, it isn't just about upgrading the starters spot, it is about improving the depth. As things stood, that guy would have been Karl Paymah, who has barely played at all in any role. Beyond that, there is pretty much nothing. The #3 CB is an extremely important position in todays NFL. Teams play their nickle packages half the time or more, so you need a good player at that spot. If you'll recall some of our recent playoff losses, the one common theme was our nickleback getting beaten like a borrowed mule. While Foxworth doesn't have much starters experience, he has proven to be a reliable nickleback as he's progressed, and he should only be better in his third season.

As far as, "is he worth two starters?" Well, neither Foster or Bell were going to start for us next season. Both had lost the confidence of their coaches and were out of our plans. So, from our prospective, it wasn't two starters we lost, but two spare parts who weren't going to be here next season regardless. If a fresh start with a new team with new systems is a better fit for them and they end up having good careers, good for them. It wasn't going to happen in Denver.

And Erik Pears, who filled in admirably for Lepsis on the left side last season, would appear to be the favorite for the RT job. Adam Meadows will probably be given a chance to compete.

[Ratboy]

I think Bly is going to be pretty good. If we get a defensive line, there is no reason stopping our defense from being at the top.

[azbroncfan]

Now Denver has best CB tandem. That's not hard though when Bailey is heads above everyone else in the league right now.

[watermock]

Foster and Tater weren't getting much love for obvious reasons. It was probably the right move to keep our third and deal Tater. You need killer coverage aces in this age of babying QB's and recievers. Between the right turnstile and Mr. Fumblitis, I don't see how either had a future here. Foster was lucky to escape with his scalp IMO.

Long live Matt Millen! It was an epic rape per Snyder, but as usual, when Denver decides they want someone, it gets done. This will allow Fox to play some nickel and spell an aging Lynch.

Obviously, we need to get a RB first day.

[Drek]

Foster was set to make $2.34M this upcoming season, so moving that bill off to someone else is just an all around plus when there is no doubt Pears and Meadows would beat him out in camp.

The 5th for 6th swap is pretty negligable as well.

I'd say the deal ultimately breaks down as what the next highest offer probably was and how our deal compared. I'm betting it was the Saints offering their 3rd. So using that as a value basis we basically pulled late third value out of Bell, I like that.

As for how it relates to Foxworth, I think he's better suited to a nickle role, at least currently, so its a good move there. I more worry about what it does with Paymah's future, as I was very impressed with the limited play time he saw last year and I think he's an even better fit in Bates' system. Now he's likely regulated to splitting time at nickle and dime with Foxworth. Hopefully they let him get on the field as a safety some as well.

[Traveler]

No real concern with the deal. But I'd feel much better if we can get something for Plummer to fill the void between our 3rd round selection and our 6th just obtained from Detroit.

[crazyhorse]

Will Bly play out his Detriot contract or has Denver renegotiated his deal?

Does anyone know $ numbers?

[Ron Mexico]

It adds some great depth. As injuries proved last season, it doesn't hurt to have good depth in the secondary.

[Rock Chalk]

Is the upgrade from Foxworth to Bly worth 2 players and a draft pick?

Just curious?



disclaimer: This is a simple question. It is not intended to be smack.

Quite simply, no.

Bly will disappoint Denver fans. He is a good CB, but he is prone to giving up big plays (sound familiar folks?). While I would have been happy with the trade Bly for Bell/Foster straight up, the draft pick makes this a scam and Denver is the scamee. Not that a 5th rounder is likely to be productive or a great player or even a rotational guy the way Denver drafts, but they gave up the chance for some guy to come in and do well. Bly isn't that good.

COnversely, Detroit got scammed almost as bad. But since they got a 5th its not as bad. Foster sucks and while he may upgrade their RT spot, it will still be a revolving door if he even stays in Detroit. Bell for Bly straight across is a wash as they are about the same quality of player IMO.

[eddie mac]

Quite simply, no.

Bly will disappoint Denver fans. He is a good CB, but he is prone to giving up big plays (sound familiar folks?). While I would have been happy with the trade Bly for Bell/Foster straight up, the draft pick makes this a scam and Denver is the scamee. Not that a 5th rounder is likely to be productive or a great player or even a rotational guy the way Denver drafts, but they gave up the chance for some guy to come in and do well. Bly isn't that good.

COnversely, Detroit got scammed almost as bad. But since they got a 5th its not as bad. Foster sucks and while he may upgrade their RT spot, it will still be a revolving door if he even stays in Detroit. Bell for Bly straight across is a wash as they are about the same quality of player IMO.

So you reckon the difference between a late 5th round pick and an early 6th rd pick turns this into a bad trade??? That's ridiculous Alec considering you were prepared to accept the Foster/Bell deal straight up. That's the difference between pick 150-162 approximately, wow big deal.

[toad]

I'm looking at it just at surface level:

- Bly is better than any CB on our roster not named "Bailey"
- Foster is/was a bust and wasn't likely to start anyway
- Its safe to assume that T. Bell, while a great speed/pace back, isn't what our staff was looking for as a feature back. This trade also inclines me to think that we're looking at an alternate RB solution anyway, be it draft or FA. Either way Tatum was looking at a reduced role next season.

So we gave up a non-starter (whom many consider a certifiable bust), an apparent part-time role player, and 15 or so draft spots for an obvious upgrade at a position valuable to us (with Champ only getting thrown at ~3 times per game, the CB opposite him is obviously very valuable).

I personally like the move and think it was "worth it." The coaching staff sees our current CBs at practice every day and I'm sure they reseached file on Bly before making this trade - I trust that they obviously have more intimate knowledge of our needs than we do.

Obviously Darrent's death is what put us in this situation to begin with but, if it had to happen, Bly is a good pickup to play oppisite Champ.

Side note: Seems like most people agree this gives us the best CB tandum in the league now.

[Jason in LA]

Who will replace Foster? Is there someone on the roster?

Foster was replaced during the season, but was put back into the starting lineup after his replacement got hurt.

The trade works great for the Broncos. They sent away two players who they weren't going to count on next year, and got one player who they will count on. Sounds like a good move to me.

[Steve Sewell]

Is the upgrade from Foxworth to Bly worth 2 players and a draft pick?

Just curious?



disclaimer: This is a simple question. It is not intended to be smack.

Chiefs fans and management don't really understand this concept, but there is a value to quality depth as well.

[crazyhorse]

So you reckon the difference between a late 5th round pick and an early 6th rd pick turns this into a bad trade??? That's ridiculous Alec considering you were prepared to accept the Foster/Bell deal straight up. That's the difference between pick 150-162 approximately, wow big deal.

Though I am not so quick to say this is a good deal for the Broncos, I must agree that the draft pick swap is hardly the deciding factor.

My opinion on the trade is simple. Foxworth could step in and do just as well as Bly. He had similar numbers last season without any starts. He had less INTs but his total tackle numbers were better and he was in a back up or nickel role. If the Broncos were going to trade off players, they would have been better suited to find some D line help which could help the CBs they currently have. Last season the Broncos had one of the best CB tandems in the NFL yet fielded one of the worst pass defenses in the league.

I'm not saying that the player trade was bad player for player. But I'm not sure the difference between Bly and Foxworth would justify 2 players and a draft pick. JMO. I could be completely wrong.

[crazyhorse]

Chiefs fans and management don't really understand this concept, but there is a value to quality depth as well.

Your depth on the O line just became thinner. What's your point?

[Drek]

Will Bly play out his Detriot contract or has Denver renegotiated his deal?

Does anyone know $ numbers?

Bly is making $4.2M in base, believe thats his cap number post-trade. The Broncos are supposedly already working on extending him.

Quite simply, no.

Bly will disappoint Denver fans. He is a good CB, but he is prone to giving up big plays (sound familiar folks?). While I would have been happy with the trade Bly for Bell/Foster straight up, the draft pick makes this a scam and Denver is the scamee. Not that a 5th rounder is likely to be productive or a great player or even a rotational guy the way Denver drafts, but they gave up the chance for some guy to come in and do well. Bly isn't that good.

COnversely, Detroit got scammed almost as bad. But since they got a 5th its not as bad. Foster sucks and while he may upgrade their RT spot, it will still be a revolving door if he even stays in Detroit. Bell for Bly straight across is a wash as they are about the same quality of player IMO.

You really think dropping from the 21st pick in the 5th to the 2nd pick in the 6th is a huge swing? We'll still bring in a guy who can compete in camp, and I doubt it'll even have a major effect on who we take.

Pick value people should be happy with this trade. We effectively got late 3rd out of Tatum, which is what everyone was hoping for. We also added Bly, a clear target of Shanahan's, without giving up one of our thirds. I'd feel much worse if it was #85 in place of Tatum and the 5th/6th swap, or #70 straight up.

People seem to forget that Bly was a pro-bowler in his previous three seasons in Detroit. A dramatic shift in coaching style threw him last year, but other than that he's been considered an elite corner. Does he play a similar style to Darrent Williams (RIP)? Yes, but he does much better with it. He takes risks, but more intelligent risks. He'll get beat for big plays, but it won't be consistant abuse on hooks and curls like Williams was much of last year. Bly is an upgrade at #2 CB over what we had last year, regardless of what happened the night after the season ended.

[Rohirrim]

I notice from looking at the wire that, once again, the Chefs are doing absolutely nothing. Crazy, you are more than welcome to hang out here and watch a FO in action that actually gives a ****.

[elsid13]

Your depth on the O line just became thinner. What's your point?

Not really with Lepsis coming back and Pears experience last year the depth is actually better - we have 3 tackles that can play and play at high level - Lepsis, Pears and Meadows. Plus we will add LT/RT in draft.

The interior has Nalen, Hamilton and Kuper* starting. With Myers and Eslinger pushing for playing time. And I read today Denver is attempting to bring in Holland from the Saints to compete for the RG spot

Overall pretty good depth with nice mix of youth and experience

[BroncoFiend]

Though I am not so quick to say this is a good deal for the Broncos, I must agree that the draft pick swap is hardly the deciding factor.

My opinion on the trade is simple. Foxworth could step in and do just as well as Bly. He had similar numbers last season without any starts. He had less INTs but his total tackle numbers were better and he was in a back up or nickel role. If the Broncos were going to trade off players, they would have been better suited to find some D line help which could help the CBs they currently have. Last season the Broncos had one of the best CB tandems in the NFL yet fielded one of the worst pass defenses in the league.

I'm not saying that the player trade was bad player for player. But I'm not sure the difference between Bly and Foxworth would justify 2 players and a draft pick. JMO. I could be completely wrong.

I think you're missing the point, it is not a choice between Bly and Foxworth, it is adding Bly to our secondary. Bly is a more accomplished CB, but there will be a lot of time when both are on the field. I guess you can say, who would you rather have on the field, Bly or Paymah.

And giving up a RB and LT that you have no intention of keeping on the roster anyway for a Pro-bowler is a pretty good deal.

[crazyhorse]

I notice from looking at the wire that, once again, the Chefs are doing absolutely nothing. Crazy, you are more than welcome to hang out here and watch a FO in action that actually gives a ****.

Thanks

[Rohirrim]

I think you're missing the point, it is not a choice between Bly and Foxworth, it is adding Bly to our secondary. Bly is a more accomplished CB, but there will be a lot of time when both are on the field. I guess you can say, who would you rather have on the field, Bly or Paymah.

And giving up a RB and LT that you have no intention of keeping on the roster anyway for a Pro-bowler is a pretty good deal.

I guess you could say the Broncos traded Clinton Portis for Champ Bailey and Dre Bly. Not a bad deal.

[crazyhorse]

I think you're missing the point, it is not a choice between Bly and Foxworth, it is adding Bly to our secondary. Bly is a more accomplished CB, but there will be a lot of time when both are on the field. I guess you can say, who would you rather have on the field, Bly or Paymah.

And giving up a RB and LT that you have no intention of keeping on the roster anyway for a Pro-bowler is a pretty good deal.


I get the point. It is absolutely a choice of Bly or Foxworth. I would bet that Foxworth would have been the starter in that spot had the Broncos not replaced Williams with Bly.

[Steve Sewell]

Your depth on the O line just became thinner. What's your point?

My point is that you obviously don't understand the concept of having quality depth...not surprising considering you're a fan of a team that, for the last 5 years, has been using Dexter McCleon and Lenny Walls in the nickel spot.

[fontaine]

Quite simply, no.

Bly will disappoint Denver fans. He is a good CB, but he is prone to giving up big plays (sound familiar folks?). While I would have been happy with the trade Bly for Bell/Foster straight up, the draft pick makes this a scam and Denver is the scamee. Not that a 5th rounder is likely to be productive or a great player or even a rotational guy the way Denver drafts, but they gave up the chance for some guy to come in and do well. Bly isn't that good.

You're right that Bly does give up some big plays because of his aggressive play.

But there were 6-7 teams that were genuinely interested in him so there's no doubt that he is a good starting level CB. The other thing that is crucial is that Bly went against the top WR most of the time in Detroit.

In Denver he'll be facing 2nd WRs so he'll be facing lesser talent than he's used to so he'll look better than he did in Detroit where he was a pro-bowl player.

[crazyhorse]

My point is that you obviously don't understand the concept of having quality depth...not surprising considering you're a fan of a team that, for the last 5 years, has been using Dexter McCleon and Lenny Walls in the nickel spot.

I'm sorry you felt threatened by this thread. As I stated, it's not intended as a smack thread. Perhaps you should just skip over my posts if they are too much for you to handle.

I think anyone who knows anything about football understands depth is good. However, you will find that trading 2 players and trading down in the draft for a single player for depth is an exercise in futility.

This was not an attempt to build depth but to field a starter. Let's be realistic.

[Ron Mexico]

You're right that Bly does give up some big plays because of his aggressive play.

But there were 6-7 teams that were genuinely interested in him so there's no doubt that he is a good starting level CB. The other thing that is crucial is that Bly went against the top WR most of the time in Detroit.

In Denver he'll be facing 2nd WRs so he'll be facing lesser talent than he's used to so he'll look better than he did in Detroit where he was a pro-bowl player.

Great point! :sunshine:

[Los Broncos]

Bring back the Roc! lol

[Mediator12]

I'm sorry you felt threatened by this thread. As I stated, it's not intended as a smack thread. Perhaps you should just skip over my posts if they are too much for you to handle.

I think anyone who knows anything about football understands depth is good. However, you will find that trading 2 players and trading down in the draft for a single player for depth is an exercise in futility.

This was not an attempt to build depth but to field a starter. Let's be realistic.

I think you have poor Information crazyhorse. Foster was on the chopping block already, Bell was already being shopped in trade talks, and for all practical purposes the picks are not much value. The broncos got value for players that were already out of their plans for next years team. Could it have been spent elsewhere? Sure, but Bates plays a ton of Man coverage with CB's being left out on an island and that is Bly's specialty.

Bly was on the Trading block because DET converted to the Tampa Two last season and he has less value as a Zone CB with Run support responsibilities and was being paid as a top Cover CB. He also is a true #1 CB that will get to play against #2 WR in man coverage. That is a huge win situation for DEN as they will be able to play eight in the box more often versus KC, SD, and Other Run oriented teams.

As was also pointed out, DEN played 53% of its snaps in the nickel last season. Having better coverage on the outside allows Lynch to cheat down in the nickel to be a third LB against the run and more options in coverage.

Therefore, DEN deals two players it was already planning on dealing for a major upgrade at the #2 CB and allows two young CB's to keep adequate depth in the secondary behind him. This is very necessary if Bates plays his scheme true to form even if they do get a pass rush. Right Now, the Pass Rush is what really worries me for the fifth year in a row.

[crazyhorse]

I think you have poor Information crazyhorse. Foster was on the chopping block already, Bell was already being shopped in trade talks, and for all practical purposes the picks are not much value. The broncos got value for players that were already out of their plans for next years team. Could it have been spent elsewhere? Sure, but Bates plays a ton of Man coverage with CB's being left out on an island and that is Bly's specialty.

Bly was on the Trading block because DET converted to the Tampa Two last season and he has less value as a Zone CB with Run support responsibilities and was being paid as a top Cover CB. He also is a true #1 CB that will get to play against #2 WR in man coverage. That is a huge win situation for DEN as they will be able to play eight in the box more often versus KC, SD, and Other Run oriented teams.

As was also pointed out, DEN played 53% of its snaps in the nickel last season. Having better coverage on the outside allows Lynch to cheat down in the nickel to be a third LB against the run and more options in coverage.

Therefore, DEN deals two players it was already planning on dealing for a major upgrade at the #2 CB and allows two young CB's to keep adequate depth in the secondary behind him. This is very necessary if Bates plays his scheme true to form even if they do get a pass rush. Right Now, the Pass Rush is what really worries me for the fifth year in a row.

All you have to say is that you feel like the upgrade at CB is worth it.

I fully understand the dynamics behind the roster implications. My opinion is based in the fact that I dont feel like Bly is much of a corner.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that Shanny has no faith in his own ability to draft. Because he has been drafting corners for some time.

If you spent 53% of all defensive plays with 5 DBs on the field that is simply more proof that you dont need corners, but D line. The Broncos should be building thier front 7. Not thier back 5

[Drek]

All you have to say is that you feel like the upgrade at CB is worth it.

I fully understand the dynamics behind the roster implications. My opinion is based in the fact that I dont feel like Bly is much of a corner.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that Shanny has no faith in his own ability to draft. Because he has been drafting corners for some time.

If you spent 53% of all defensive plays with 5 DBs on the field that is simply more proof that you dont need corners, but D line. The Broncos should be building thier front 7. Not thier back 5
Shanahan added a CB who has pro bowled three times in the last four years in exchange for a backup OT we weren't going to keep on the roster ($2.335M base salary), a situational speed RB who fumbles, and moving down 13 spots in the second day. I don't care who you are and what your team needs might be, you make that deal.

[crazyhorse]

Shanahan added a CB who has pro bowled three times in the last four years in exchange for a backup OT we weren't going to keep on the roster ($2.335M base salary), a situational speed RB who fumbles, and moving down 13 spots in the second day. I don't care who you are and what your team needs might be, you make that deal.

Why not just pick him up when the Lions cut him?

[Arkie]

Is the upgrade from Foxworth to Bly worth 2 players and a draft pick?

Just curious?



disclaimer: This is a simple question. It is not intended to be smack.

Yes, because it upgrades all of our cornersbacks except Champ Bailey. Of course, Champ can't be an upgrade over himself. However, Bly is an upgrade at #2 over Foxworth, and Foxworth is an upgrade over Paymah at #3, and so on down the depth chart. The 6th round pick will probably be used to pick whoever we reached for in the 5th anyway, so it's a wash there. :thumbsup:

[Drek]

Why not just pick him up when the Lions cut him?

He wasn't getting cut, Washington and New Orleans were known to be after him, three other teams were players less than a week ago as well. Detroit has plenty of cap room and he's only going to cost them ~$1M in cap hit by trading him, not anything they'd look to June 1st and split over two years. He was getting traded and the market clearly put his price at the value of a late 3rd, what I value Denver's package at.

[listopencil]

I like the deal. I think it has a similar inpact as the Portis/Bailey deal on a lesser scale. Adding Bailey moved every CB down one spot on our roster and adding Bly will do the same from the #2 spot on down. We still have some more upgrades to get done, though:

1) D-Line. I'm hoping we get a DT in the draft. They are obviously looking at Free Agency right now.
2) Safety. We need a guy that can cover, but what about the injuries at this position from last year? Shouldn't those guys be getting healthy?
3) RB. We lost Nash and Tatum Bell. I'm not worried about it. My dog will rush for over 1,000 yards for the Broncos next year if they want him to.

[Taco John]

I love putting a ballhawking veteran on the other side of Champ. Bly is known as a gambler, but when he's playing fundamental football, the guy provides very solid coverage.

With respect to Dwill, Bly isn't going to go out there and try to be Champ Bailey. He's just going to go out and play his game.

[Mediator12]

All you have to say is that you feel like the upgrade at CB is worth it.

I fully understand the dynamics behind the roster implications. My opinion is based in the fact that I dont feel like Bly is much of a corner.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that Shanny has no faith in his own ability to draft. Because he has been drafting corners for some time.

If you spent 53% of all defensive plays with 5 DBs on the field that is simply more proof that you dont need corners, but D line. The Broncos should be building thier front 7. Not thier back 5

Not really.

Certain FA's do not fit with certain teams scheme's. And some are perfect fits. the problem has always been selling the coaches, Player personnel, and the player that. Bly is not a top 10 CB IMHO, but he is somewhere between 15-25 in the right scheme. That is a whole lot better than Foxworth at around 60-75 range.

As for his drafting ability, it has been fairly poor on the Defensive side of the ball outside LB's. The biggest reason is that while the Broncos offense is so consistent in its Scheme, the defense never was allowed to develop its own. They keep giving different puzzle pieces to the DL and secondary every year with no thought to consistency in scheme.

Coyer caught a whole lot of Hell around here for this defense last year being so passive, but those were the pieces he was given up front on the DL and LB's. He had to smoke and mirror his way with that trash on the DL and they were highly successful until teams realized just how weak they were up front and rushing the passer. He played five different base scheme's in four years because the talent handed to him dictated playing differently each year and half year in 2005.

As for the DL, you have not read enough around here if you think we do not already know that. Everyone knows that DE and DT are the two most pressing needs on this entire team. KC need any CLE castoffs? We have several you can have.

[listopencil]

As for the DL, you have not read enough around here if you think we do not already know that. Everyone knows that DE and DT are the two most pressing needs on this entire team. KC need any CLE castoffs? We have several you can have.

Yep. I think the only argument is whether we need a DE or a DT more.

[Sodak]

Abdullah Hamza looked pretty good at safety last year, Taco. I'm not sure about his coverage though...

[Hogan11]

With respect to Dwill, Bly isn't going to go out there and try to be Champ Bailey. He's just going to go out and play his game.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw it this way.

[nickademus]

All you have to say is that you feel like the upgrade at CB is worth it.

I fully understand the dynamics behind the roster implications. My opinion is based in the fact that I dont feel like Bly is much of a corner.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that Shanny has no faith in his own ability to draft. Because he has been drafting corners for some time.

If you spent 53% of all defensive plays with 5 DBs on the field that is simply more proof that you dont need corners, but D line. The Broncos should be building thier front 7. Not thier back 5

right there is where you got the point. it took shanny 12 guys (two of them first round pics) to net a starter and a potential starter. we loose one tragicly and insted of going throught another 6 draft picks and 4 other guys he finds a cb whos track record would suggest he will do well opposite Champ. could he flounder? sure but his style would seem to fit our d. So to shanny it was worth the two spare parts given up to take a shot. and if Bly works out then we added a starter and depth.