navy won't stop sonar off california

[cutthemdown]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/4551358.html

HONOLULU — The Navy says it won't comply with sonar training restrictions that aim to protect marine mammals off the California coast, arguing that the commission that imposed the rules does not have the jurisdiction to do so.

The U.S. Pacific Fleet said in a statement on Monday that the California Coastal Commission's rules cannot be applied beyond the scope of state waters, three nautical miles from shore.

"The Navy does not take lightly our responsibility to the environment and marine life," said Vice Adm. Barry Costello, commander of the U.S. 3rd Fleet in San Diego. "And we can be responsible environmental stewards while our sonar operators receive realistic training and experience at sea they need."

The Navy has been using sonar during training exercises off the California coast for decades, a practice that critics say can injure whales and other sea mammals. Last year, it sought permission for the exercises from the commission as part of new internal guidelines to ensure major exercises are environmentally sound.

The commission agreed to the exercises last month. But it also imposed restrictions on use of mid-frequency active sonar in a zone the Navy said was outside the commission's jurisdiction.

A call to the coastal commission was not immediately returned Tuesday.

Environmentalists on Tuesday criticized the Navy's decision, accusing it of denying the commission's authority to protect mammals off its coast. The Natural Resources Defense Council, an environmental group that has sued to stop other Navy sonar training, vowed to sue if the coastal commission does not.

"The notion that the commission is pre-empted from protecting marine mammals off the California coast is not only without any legal basis but it is in direct contradiction to the fact that the commission has been doing exactly that for decades under the federal law protecting our coasts," said Joel Reynolds of the Natural Resources Defense Council.

Environmentalists say whales have stranded themselves on beaches after being exposed to high-intensity mid-frequency sonar. The sonar is also claimed to interfere with the ability of marine mammals to navigate, hunt, take care of their offspring and avoid predators.

The Navy acknowledges mid-frequency active sonar can contribute to marine mammal injury, or even death. It says it takes steps to protect marine mammals, such as posting lookouts on board to watch for marine mammals nearby.



I love animals and always try to not damage the ocean when I'm out fishing on my sportfishing boat. But also I am for a strong well trained military and understand they need to train with sonar to learn how to operate it. I still don't feel comfortable driving my boat in fog or darkness with only my radar to guide me. trying to see with sonar and radar takes a lot of practice. I also love going out to see the whales though and I feel they are every bit as intelligent as humans. What do all of you think about this?

[Spider]

The Navy needs to stop ..

[BABronco]

The Navy needs to stop ..

Because?

[Spider]

I suppose I better add on ............ they need to stop while close , they can go out to deep waters , screw with the Sharks awhile or go up north before the whale migration ........

[Spider]

Because?

LOL I knew I should have added more,,, as for why ......... Cause I say so

[BABronco]

LOL I knew I should have added more,,, as for why ......... Cause I say so

Ok agree with what your saying ... and expectually the part in bold

[cutthemdown]

they train in SD though. Are you saying they should move the whole Navy training grounds from SD to somewhere else? Plus aren't marine mammals everywhere? I wuold imagine the costs of this would be too high and govt wont do it.

[BABronco]

they train in SD though. Are you saying they should move the whole Navy training grounds from SD to somewhere else? Plus aren't marine mammals everywhere? I wuold imagine the costs of this would be too high and govt wont do it.

Could they not just train an extra few miles out?

[Spider]

they train in SD though. Are you saying they should move the whole Navy training grounds from SD to somewhere else? Plus aren't marine mammals everywhere? I wuold imagine the costs of this would be too high and govt wont do it.

I know it is tough , and going up North before Migration you wont affect alot of Mammals it is the entire migration thing , Train dow nsouth why the Whales are up north .......vise a versa

[Bronco_Beerslug]

If they are destroying animals they need to completely stop.

[cutthemdown]

If they are destroying animals they need to completely stop.

i think exactly what it does they don't know. It doesn't kill them per se, but it can lead I think to them becoming disoriented. This disorientation is what leads them to beach themselves. This is one of those issues that I realize I really am not sure exactly what I stand for and things get murky. Like I said I fish so it's not like I'm in environmentalist, but at same time I want oceans kept clean and want whales to be protected. The problem is the Marine Mammal Protection act also protected the sea lions in calif. The population has exploded, these sea lions are a menace and they are eating all the fish because there is nothing to predate them. Just not enough sharks because they are overfished by commercial long lines. I used to see Mako sharks 10 foot plus all the time!!! now those are the exception more then the rule. It's really hard for humans to manage the ocean we just don't understand it much more then we do outer space.

[ant1999e]

they train in SD though. Are you saying they should move the whole Navy training grounds from SD to somewhere else? Plus aren't marine mammals everywhere? I wuold imagine the costs of this would be too high and govt wont do it.

Exactly. There are plenty of mammals in this world. We all have to sacrifice a little. Even the ocean mammals.

[Spider]

Exactly. There are plenty of mammals in this world. We all have to sacrifice a little. Even the ocean mammals.
I think you have a point ........... Maybe if we can get all of those that voted for Bush to jump off a cliff, not only would it make a our Country Smarter , jobless rate would fall ...........So how about Bush voters , your country needs you to sacrifice .........Do it for your country

[BABronco]

I think you have a point ........... Maybe if we can get all of those that voted for Bush to jump off a cliff, not only would it make a our Country Smarter , jobless rate would fall ...........So how about Bush voters , your country needs you to sacrifice .........Do it for your country

Not to get off subject too much... the dems couldnt find anyone better than kerry to run. If I could have I would have voted for Bush.

[Spider]

Not to get off subject too much... the dems couldnt find anyone better than kerry to run. If I could have I would have voted for Bush.

Jump ........ your country needs you ;D

[Spider]

call it the cleansing of America , anyone that would still vote for Bush after everything that has gone down , well to be blunt, you would be doing us a favor ...........

[BABronco]

Jump ........ your country needs you ;D

Whew ... thank God cliff wasn't too tall.

[BABronco]

call it the cleansing of America , anyone that would still vote for Bush after everything that has gone down , well to be blunt, you would be doing us a favor ...........

The only way I'd vote for bush if the dem was kerry or clinton ... just be thankful he can only run twice

[Spider]

Whew ... thank God cliff wasn't too tall.

Find a taller one , hell we will build a monument ...............say all kinds of nice things even though we dont mean it ........

[Swedish Extrovert]

I suppose I better add on ............ they need to stop while close , they can go out to deep waters , screw with the Sharks awhile or go up north before the whale migration ........

Screw Donald Winter

[Spider]

The only way I'd vote for bush if the dem was kerry or clinton ... just be thankful he can only run twice

Bush , Clinton , Jr , how many years is that ? now we have Hillary running + 4 if she wins ..........should have stopped it with JR

[Spider]

Screw Donald Winter

is there any money in it for me ???

[ant1999e]

I think you have a point ........... Maybe if we can get all of those that voted for Bush to jump off a cliff, not only would it make a our Country Smarter , jobless rate would fall ...........So how about Bush voters , your country needs you to sacrifice .........Do it for your country

That would be over half the country. I'm not sure there are enough cliffs in the U.S. Plus, if the rest of the dems form sentences like you, the human race would have no hope. J/K:yayaya:

[Spider]

That would be over half the country. I'm not sure there are enough cliffs in the U.S. Plus, if the rest of the dems form sentences like you, the human race would have no hope. J/K:yayaya:

Probably , but we wouldnt have Bush ;D

[cutthemdown]

How and the hell spider can you turn a thread about marine mammals once again into Bush supporters need to jump off a cliff? You are truly a one horse pony!!!!!!!

[Spider]

How and the hell spider can you turn a thread about marine mammals once again into Bush supporters need to jump off a cliff? You are truly a one horse pony!!!!!!!

Dont blame me , it was brought up about Mammals , last I knew we was Mammals ........ well most of us anyway .............you are a smart guy cut , put 2 and 2 together ............. mammals need to sacrifice , so why not start with Bush voters ?

[Swedish Extrovert]

I'd love to meet you Spider. We can go to a game or something.

The thing about the Navy (I'm drunk I don't know why... maybe its the alcohol) when I first reported to the USS John F. Kennedy, I was so proud to serve. I watched the news like the 2nd or 3rd night and there were a bunch of dead Dolphins on the coast here in Jacksonville. Then my first underway they made me dump all this waste out to see... like garbage and ****.

I love the US Military, but why do we have to do that ****?

[Spider]

Hint Cut ...........Just in case you still dont get it ....... post 12 , the one after post 11 and before post 13 .......... if there is anything else I can do to help feel free NOT to ask ........

[Spider]

I'd love to meet you Spider. We can go to a game or something.

The thing about the Navy (I'm drunk I don't know why... maybe its the alcohol) when I first reported to the USS John F. Kennedy, I was so proud to serve. I watched the news like the 2nd or 3rd night and there were a bunch of dead Dolphins on the coast here in Jacksonville. Then my first underway they made me dump all this waste out to see... like garbage and ****.

I love the US Military, but why do we have to do that ****?

;D perhaps someday ........still be proud to serve ....... things will work out , they always do

[cutthemdown]

Dont blame me , it was brought up about Mammals , last I knew we was Mammals ........ well most of us anyway .............you are a smart guy cut , put 2 and 2 together ............. mammals need to sacrifice , so why not start with Bush voters ?

If all the republicans killed themselves who would be left to pay for all the dems welfare?

[Spider]

If all the republicans killed themselves who would be left to pay for all the dems welfare?

we will manage , where there is a will there is a way ......... Dont worry about us , we will find away to go on ,no matter how (:giggle:) hard it will be ..........

[spdirty]

Jump ........ your country needs you ;D

OK!!!!!:wave:

[Spider]

OK!!!!!:wave:

not you .......you still owe me Red Lobster and a movie ........... Not getting off that cheap ;D

[cutthemdown]

we will manage , where there is a will there is a way ......... Dont worry about us , we will find away to go on ,no matter how (:giggle:) hard it will be ..........

You would all be lost with no one to blame and you know it. The democrats best trait is the ability to point fingers and say man you are really evil and stoooooopid.

[Spider]

You would all be lost with no one to blame and you know it. The democrats best trait is the ability to point fingers and say man you are really evil and stoooooopid.

no worries we will still have Libertarians .............

[spdirty]

not you .......you still owe me Red Lobster and a movie ........... Not getting off that cheap ;D

hell, might as well run the damn credit cards up while Im at it...you want to take the family on a cruise or something?

[cutthemdown]

no worries we will still have Libertarians .............

libertarian is how I always score when I take those political type tests. Then I listen to the canidates they put out and feel they sound a little wacko!!!!

[Spider]

hell, might as well run the damn credit cards up while Im at it...you want to take the family on a cruise or something?

if it aint to much trouble ;D
Alaska ..... and plenty of motion sickness pills I get seasick on a water bed ;D

[Spider]

libertarian is how I always score when I take those political type tests. Then I listen to the canidates they put out and feel they sound a little wacko!!!!

see we agree ;D .......... But I did vote for Perrot .........

[spdirty]

if it aint to much trouble ;D
Alaska ..... and plenty of motion sickness pills I get seasick on a water bed ;D

Alaska?? You don't wanna go to the carribean after dealing with this crap the last 2 months? OK, whatever...

[Spider]

Alaska?? You don't wanna go to the carribean after dealing with this crap the last 2 months? OK, whatever...

;D you would think so , but man I have always wanted to see Alaska , matter of fact if I had a better understanding of Rubbers .....who knows ;D

[cutthemdown]

see we agree ;D .......... But I did vote for Perrot .........

dude perot? oh man he was crazy!!!!

[cutthemdown]

;D you would think so , but man I have always wanted to see Alaska , matter of fact if I had a better understanding of Rubbers .....who knows ;D

I sent my parents on a cruise to Alaska. They loved it!!!!

[Spider]

dude perot? oh man he was crazy!!!!

I didnt say he was perfect ............ ;D

[Bronco Bob]

dude perot? oh man he was crazy!!!!

But unlike W, at least Perot admitted he was. :D

[Spider]

I sent my parents on a cruise to Alaska. They loved it!!!!

I know I would , but 6 kids took care of that dream for awhile ;D

[Garcia Bronco]

good for the Navy....tell'em to **** off.

[Spider]

good for the Navy....tell'em to **** off.

i was once asked , How long can a person live in a coma without dying .......... So how old are you Garcia ?

[defenseman]

I was stationed out in the islands for years and years. There are some very nutso groups out there that will play any card necessary to shutdown things like sonar testing. Bottom line is, being one who has 'tested' sonar systems on so many occassions it's sick, we avoid ANY mammals/animals as much as humanly possible, ALL THE TIME. The Navy has always done it's level best to NOT damage the enviroment or the animals in it. they'll continue testing, and they should. ....dman

*Hawaii is nice place to visit, however, at least on oahu , it is not the nice place it used to be while living there. It has gone down hill....the "locals" are not the people they used to be in general.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I was stationed out in the islands for years and years. There are some very nutso groups out there that will play any card necessary to shutdown things like sonar testing. Bottom line is, being one who has 'tested' sonar systems on so many occassions it's sick, we avoid ANY mammals/animals as much as humanly possible, ALL THE TIME. The Navy has always done it's level best to NOT damage the enviroment or the animals in it. they'll continue testing, and they should. ....dman

*Hawaii is nice place to visit, however, at least on oahu , it is not the nice place it used to be while living there. It has gone down hill....the "locals" are not the people they used to be in general.
Really? Are you involved in these programs?

[defenseman]

Really? Are you involved in these programs?

Strictly the platform of choice when I was out there on the boats and such...dman

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Strictly the platform of choice when I was out there on the boats and such...dmanSo you have been involved in the testing of LFA sonar?

[defenseman]

Could they not just train an extra few miles out?

the training occurs miles and miles away from the shore for the most part. Been there done that. And, the Navy MUST be able to train. If not allowed, scrap the lot of them, in battle is the WRONG time to figure out you don't know what you are doing. The enviromentalists have NO concept of what they are asking the Navy to do, AND the cost to the taxpayer of the US to relocate....dman

[Bronco_Beerslug]

the training occurs miles and miles away from the shore for the most part. Been there done that. And, the Navy MUST be able to train. If not allowed, scrap the lot of them, in battle is the WRONG time to figure out you don't know what you are doing. The enviromentalists have NO concept of what they are asking the Navy to do, AND the cost to the taxpayer of the US to relocate....dmanQuite the opposite. The Navy refuses to work with the courts and scientists so this is why they are being criticized and justly so.

---------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.seaflow.org/article.php?id=619
Snip:
Further evidence comes from a report prepared for the Navy by a committee of scientists, which said in 2004, "[We were] tasked by the [Office of Naval Research (ONR)] to investigate the reported incidents of marine mammal beachings in apparent response to mid-frequency active sonar... We would like to state at the outset that the evidence of sonar causation is, in our opinion, completely convincing and that therefore there is a serious issue of how best to avoid/minimize future beaching events... Given the variety of different beaching events, it is hard to argue that there is some very special confluence of acoustic events that uniquely trigger beaked whale beachings; instead the trauma, whatever its cause, seems to be a robust consequence of mid-frequency ensonification."

However, the NRDC and the groups it's working with are quick to stress that sonar is a key component of the umbrella of technology that keeps Americans, on and sea safe. Horowitz says, "Both sides agree that naval training is critical, and we are asking only that the Navy take common-sense measures, when it trains, to protect marine life. Before filing our suit, we tried for years to sit down with the Navy to work these issues out. Unfortunately, the Navy has repeatedly shown that progress is unlikely absent court involvement."

In light of the extension, Horowitz says the "NRDC will continue our campaign to lessen harm to marine life from Navy sonar training. Our lawsuit will continue and we'll keep working with the public, and on Capitol Hill, to make sure the Navy realizes that because it trains with this dangerous technology in some of the richest underwater habitat on earth, it must do all it can to protect whales and other marine life."

-------------------------------------------


May 1996: Twelve Cuvier's beaked whales strand on the west coast of Greece as NATO ships sweep the area with low- and mid-frequency active sonar.

October 1999: Four beaked whales strand in the U.S. Virgin Islands during Navy maneuvers offshore.

May 2000: A beaked whale strands in Vieques as naval exercises are about to begin offshore.

May 2000: Three beaked whales strand on the beaches of Madeira during NATO naval exercises near shore.

April 2002: A beaked whale and a humpback whale strand near Vieques during an offshore battle group training exercise.

September 2002: At least 14 beaked whales from three different species strand in the Canary Islands during an anti-submarine warfare exercise in the area. Four additional beaked whales strand over the next several days.

May 2003: As many as 11 harbor porpoises beach along the shores of the Haro Strait, Washington State, as the USS Shoup tests its mid-frequency sonar system.

June 2004: As many as six beaked whales strand during a Navy sonar training exercise off Alaska.

July 2004: Approximately 200 melon-headed whales crowd into the shallow waters of Hanalei Bay in Hawaii as a large Navy sonar exercise takes place nearby. Rescuers succeed in directing all but one of the whales back out to sea.

July 2004: Four beaked whales strand during naval exercises near the Canary Islands.

January 2005: At least 34 whales of three species strand along the Outer Banks of North Carolina as Navy sonar training goes on offshore.

http://nrdc.org/wildlife/marine/sonar.asp

Evidence of the harm such a barrage of sound can do began to surface in March 2000, when whales of four different species stranded themselves on beaches in the Bahamas after a U.S. Navy battle group used active sonar in the area. Investigators found that the whales were bleeding internally around their brains and ears. Although the Navy initially denied responsibility, the government's investigation established with virtual certainty that the strandings were caused by its use of active sonar. Since the incident, the area's population of Cuvier's beaked whales has all but disappeared, leading researchers to conclude that they either abandoned their habitat or died at sea.

How does active sonar harm whales? According to a report in the scientific journal Nature, animals that came ashore during one mass stranding had developed large emboli, or bubbles, in their organ tissue. The report suggested that the animals had suffered from something akin to a severe case of "the bends" -- the illness that can kill scuba divers who surface too quickly from deep water. The study supports what many scientists have long suspected: that the whales stranded on shore are only the most visible symptom of a problem affecting much larger numbers of marine life.

Other impacts, though more subtle, are no less serious. Marine mammals and many species of fish use sound to follow migratory routes, locate each other over great distances, find food and care for their young. Noise that undermines their ability to hear can threaten their ability to function and, over the long term, to survive. Naval sonar has been shown to alter the singing of humpback whales, an activity essential to the reproduction of this endangered species; to disrupt the feeding of orcas; and to cause porpoises and other species to leap from the water, or panic and flee. Over time, these effects could undermine the fitness of populations of animals, contributing to what prominent biologist Sylvia Earle has called "a death of a thousand cuts."

[defenseman]

Quite the opposite. The Navy refuses to work with the courts and scientists so this is why they are being criticized and justly so.

---------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.seaflow.org/article.php?id=619
Snip:


-------------------------------------------


May 1996: Twelve Cuvier's beaked whales strand on the west coast of Greece as NATO ships sweep the area with low- and mid-frequency active sonar.

October 1999: Four beaked whales strand in the U.S. Virgin Islands during Navy maneuvers offshore.

May 2000: A beaked whale strands in Vieques as naval exercises are about to begin offshore.

May 2000: Three beaked whales strand on the beaches of Madeira during NATO naval exercises near shore.

April 2002: A beaked whale and a humpback whale strand near Vieques during an offshore battle group training exercise.

September 2002: At least 14 beaked whales from three different species strand in the Canary Islands during an anti-submarine warfare exercise in the area. Four additional beaked whales strand over the next several days.

May 2003: As many as 11 harbor porpoises beach along the shores of the Haro Strait, Washington State, as the USS Shoup tests its mid-frequency sonar system.

June 2004: As many as six beaked whales strand during a Navy sonar training exercise off Alaska.

July 2004: Approximately 200 melon-headed whales crowd into the shallow waters of Hanalei Bay in Hawaii as a large Navy sonar exercise takes place nearby. Rescuers succeed in directing all but one of the whales back out to sea.

July 2004: Four beaked whales strand during naval exercises near the Canary Islands.

January 2005: At least 34 whales of three species strand along the Outer Banks of North Carolina as Navy sonar training goes on offshore.

http://nrdc.org/wildlife/marine/sonar.asp


Good stuff beerslug...dman

[defenseman]

Boats operate off of "passive" sonar. We can go active, however, whatfor? why advertise your position. Surface ships utilize active sonar.....dman

[Swedish Extrovert]

I was stationed out in the islands for years and years. There are some very nutso groups out there that will play any card necessary to shutdown things like sonar testing. Bottom line is, being one who has 'tested' sonar systems on so many occassions it's sick, we avoid ANY mammals/animals as much as humanly possible, ALL THE TIME. The Navy has always done it's level best to NOT damage the enviroment or the animals in it. they'll continue testing, and they should. ....dman

*Hawaii is nice place to visit, however, at least on oahu , it is not the nice place it used to be while living there. It has gone down hill....the "locals" are not the people they used to be in general.

You ever been on pulper watch, Master Chief?

Tell me how they get rid of garbage on a sub... on a carrier, they grind up paper/food and dump it. Metals (even alluminum) and glass just go overboard. Some plastics go over as well.

I've seen our sonar kill hundreds of Dolphins on the news.

Oh yeah, and dont forget about all the dirt that ****ing thing grinds up from the ocean floor almost every time we pull into port.

[defenseman]

You ever been on pulper watch, Master Chief?

Tell me how they get rid of garbage on a sub... on a carrier, they grind up paper/food and dump it. Metals (even alluminum) and glass just go overboard. Some plastics go over as well.

I've seen our sonar kill hundreds of Dolphins on the news.

Oh yeah, and dont forget about all the dirt that ****ing thing grinds up from the ocean floor almost every time we pull into port.

Plastic, never goes over the side on boats, it's stored and taken off upon return to port. Boats don't kill dolphins, passive sonar does no harm to anything. A Submarine, grinding up ocean floor? Doesn't happen unless someone screwed up, god forbid you bottom out, some CO's career is over. Very rarely is their anything glass on the mess decks of a boat. On that note, I know that the powers that be in the navy go out of their way to limit any damage to the marine wildlife. Not saying it doesn't happen, however, they do their level best to avoid it though.

*We can't even "shoot" our paper chem wipes if they have ANY oil , in the least. It gets stored and transported as hazmat once the boat returns to port..

[Swedish Extrovert]

Maybe you've been on different ships. Ive seen plenty of plastic go over the side. NEVER when I'm on watch however.

Oh and glass/alluminum... we got through hundreds of Pepsi cans, Texas pete and Heinz 57 bottles every day.

[defenseman]

Maybe you've been on different ships. Ive seen plenty of plastic go over the side. NEVER when I'm on watch however.

Oh and glass/alluminum... we got through hundreds of Pepsi cans, Texas pete and Heinz 57 bottles every day.

Submarines are not "ships" , they are however boats. And, to be honest smurf, the controls on what gets shot is quite stringent. If it can't or is not supposed to go overboard, it won't get there. Boats decades ago have caught hell for allowing bad stuff to make it over the side, they slapped down very strong controls in the eighties and nineties on all of us....dman

*I would go ballastic keeping the engineroom squared away during spec ops. Freaking plastic, glass, etc..etc...STORED in the engineroom the entire op. Had to make the best of it, however, the freaking sound silencing program can go to s**t on a boat with the trash stored in various parts of the engineroom. Sounds shorts galore if you didn't watch it closely. I prefer to stay undetected if you know what I mean..dman