Time to pay up #80

[wolf754life]

Rod Smith Could Lose Starting Job to Brandon Marshall --
Fri Feb 9, 2007 --from FFMastermind.com
#
The Denver Post reports the Broncos are expected to restructure the contract of WR Rod Smith within the next month. Smith is due to collect a $1 million roster bonus in mid-March, but before the Broncos pay up, they probably will ask their all-time leading receiver to take a cut from his 2007 salary of $5.5 million. After nine consecutive seasons with at least 70 catches, Smith had only 52 catches for 512 yards in 2006. He could slide to the No. 3 receiver role next season, behind WR Javon Walker and WR Brandon Marshall.

Great news!

[watermock]

I would say that a pay cut to 2M plus his roster bonus would be quite fair. That would save 3.5 million. That's still quite fair IMO. I shudder to think how much he has nest egged in SB.

[eddie mac]

I would say that a pay cut to 2M plus his roster bonus would be quite fair. That would save 3.5 million. That's still quite fair IMO. I shudder to think how much he has nest egged in SB.

Doubt it Mock. They wont ask him to reduce his base by nearly 70%. More likely he'll get a cut in the region of $1-$2m.

[bronco militia]

time to pay up?!?!

Rod always helps the Broncos out in the offseason

[Garcia Bronco]

I think Rod is still worth all that cash, but what do I know.

[Bronco LB 59]

Rod Smith deserves his money. What a raw deal the NFLPA has worked out for their clientele.

[Florida_Bronco]

Rod Smith deserves his money. What a raw deal the NFLPA has worked out for their clientele.

I agree. Rod has taken more than one paycut for the team and could have easily left Denver for more money with another team.

I assume that they can work some kind of deal that gives the team cap room but still gets Rod his money.

[wolf754life]

honestly, the guy should probably retire, but we know he will hang around for another year. He hit a wall, fell off the cliff, stick a fork in him. Great player, great bronco, nothing but thanks for his efforts.

Unfortunately this is how it works in the nfl, stars of yesterday end up hurting the future of the franchise, and as long as rod is getting paid he is holding the team back. We may not agree with it, but thats how it is, remember bruce smith, thurman thomas, andre reed, the list goes on and on, but lets hope rod goes out with some grace after this year.

In the meantime give us as much as possible back, we will return the favor by giving him some cash upfront, and then we can add an additional 2 starters on the club with his mula.

[Garcia Bronco]

honestly, the guy should probably retire, but we know he will hang around for another year. He hit a wall, fell off the cliff, stick a fork in him. Great player, great bronco, nothing but thanks for his efforts.

Unfortunately this is how it works in the nfl, stars of yesterday end up hurting the future of the franchise, and as long as rod is getting paid he is holding the team back. We may not agree with it, but thats how it is, remember bruce smith, thurman thomas, andre reed, the list goes on and on, but lets hope rod goes out with some grace after this year.

In the meantime give us as much as possible back, we will return the favor by giving him some cash upfront, and then we can add an additional 2 starters on the club with his mula.
Get the **** outta here....he didn't hit a wall....and there is no fork in him..
Even if it's true...who gives a ****...the guy is a life time member and can stay as long as he likes for all I care. He is one of our GOATS and you should show him and blackjack pizza some respect.

[Crushaholic]

Rod Smith is a team player. I have confidence he'll restructure to help the Broncos for the future...

[Stormontheplains]

NFLPA should have negotiated a clause for tenure with the same team. Rod should get paid and only count 60% against the cap. He can stay as long as he wants, he is still the best blocking receiver, and would be a great 3rd. He has sacrificed his whole career for the team, so i don't care if he is in a wheel chair, he can play for the broncos.

[bronco militia]

. He is one of our GOATS and you should show him and blackjack pizza some respect.


word!

ha ha!

[bpc]

If I was Shanahan, I would ask Rod what does he think is fair. Time and again he has stood up and delivered for this franchise. I think he deserves something for that.

Plus, I think Cutler is going to add to the potential HOF career Rod has put together since being an undrafted free agent.

Just my 411 though.

[cutthemdown]

I would say that a pay cut to 2M plus his roster bonus would be quite fair. That would save 3.5 million. That's still quite fair IMO. I shudder to think how much he has nest egged in SB.

so he was going to make 6.5 million. 1 million in a bonus 5.5 is base. Broncos will probably give him more then a million in a bonus in exchange for taking that cut. So maybe convert roster bonus to signing bonus, then he restructures deal to make base salary for 2007 about a million, with a signing bonus of say 2 million. Rod gets 3 mil for last yr, denver gets cap room, everyone happy. They may give him even more then that. The deal will prob be for 4-5 yrs but really the last 3 years will be numbers both parties know will never happen. All for cap purposes.

[missingnumber7]

Rod won't fall to #3...he dropped to 70 catches because javon took some from him.

[cutthemdown]

Rod won't fall to #3...he dropped to 70 catches because javon took some from him.

no he's slowing down and making less big plays every year. Last year he really did bounce back but it's time for a younger player to grow with Cutler.

[watermock]

He's too long in the tooth to just push salary into SB. He needs to take a cut. Anyone who didn't see Rod struggling to get separation last year wasn't watching, Javon or not.

[Florida_Bronco]

He's too long in the tooth to just push salary into SB. He needs to take a cut. Anyone who didn't see Rod struggling to get separation last year wasn't watching, Javon or not.

He was also banged up all year.

[Gcver2ver3]

I think rod should be in the HOF.....Class act and a terrific WR...

with that said...it was pretty clear he's lost a step if not more...frankly i'm surprised he played at such a high level for so long...a true rarity...

i'm excited about brandon marshall....and walker is a manbeast...i'm ready to turn the page to the new chapter of youth we have....rod will move to #3 and do it with dignity and then he'll retire either the end of this season or next....

when rod retires it will almost hit me as much as it did when elway retired...

rod smith is the man

[footstepsfrom#27]

People assume that Rod's drop in production this year is a result of him slowing down. I'm not at all sure that's the case. I think it MAY be partly due to age, because he has lost a step, but pure speed was never Rod's game anyway. I think Jake Plummer and his weak arm had a lot to do with Rod's numbers falling off.

Since Shanahan started keeping Jake on a leash, we've seen the #2 receiver basically dissapear in this offense. It happened first when Rod was the #1 and Lelie was #2, and we had Rod getting most of the balls and Lelie complaining about his role, which formerly had been as a deep receiver, but changed when Shanahan stopped having faith in letting Jake throw long. Lelie's numbers plummeted immediately once that happened. When Walker came on board Jake started using him not to go deep (since Jake wasn't allowed to throw it long but once or twice a game), but in the short to medium zones where Rod basically made his living in the past.

Shanahan obviously did not want Jake going deep because it's an INT looking for a place to happen. Jake, for whatever reason, did not seem capable of spreading the ball around in the short and medium passing game, but instead he tended to focus in on one receiver. Once Javon got here, he became that guy and Rod was relegated to an afterthought by Jake. I have a feeling that Rod will suprise once he has an opportunity to work with Cutler. Jay will use Javon deep and he won't hesitate to spread the ball around either. It would not suprise me to see both Rod and Marshall have big years. Another 1000 yard season might not happen since we now have more than 2 WR's capable of sharing catches, but if Rod gets 800 yards and Marshall another 800 that would not suprise me either. We're in the place now where we don't have to get 1100 yards and 8 TD's from Rod because with Marshall and Scheffler here now, this offense has the ability to offer multiple targets for an arm like the one Cutler's got.

Rod has been the soul of this team since Elway retired, and we need to make sure we treat him right in the last couple years he has left, even if that means we don't get to bring in an extra free agent toy in the off season. I don't think he's done yet, and when he is, I hope he leaves here feeling like the Broncos treated him as well as he treated them.

[2KBack]

Put me in the camp that says Rod has more than enough juice left, had ****ty numbers becasue the whole offense had ****ty numbers. Javon is a 90-100 ball reciever, and caught 69 passes last season. Did Javon hit the wall? I expect a world of imporvement in the passing game next season. If MArshall is the #2 reciever that's becasue Marshall plays so well, not becasue Rod can't hang.

[BigPlayShay]

Rod's most productive time last year was November and December in terms of catches and yardage. He jumped over whatever wall he hit.

Rod, like he has many times over will take a pay cut, will play special teams, will do whatever it takes to help this organization.

[Gcver2ver3]

Put me in the camp that says Rod has more than enough juice left, had ****ty numbers becasue the whole offense had ****ty numbers. Javon is a 90-100 ball reciever, and caught 69 passes last season. Did Javon hit the wall? I expect a world of imporvement in the passing game next season. If MArshall is the #2 reciever that's becasue Marshall plays so well, not becasue Rod can't hang.

i hear ya...but i'm not going by numbers...i'm going by what i saw...

rod just didn't get as open as he typically has in prior seasons....

he wasn't as effective after the catch...

there were some times where a play would be called to get rod in some open space and he just didn't make the plays that he did in years past...

it's not a bad thing....the guy is 37 yrs old!

plus rod didn't suck last year..he still made plays....he's a warrior...i'm comparing rod smith to rod smith...not rod smith to other NFL WRs....rod smith of last year is a step slower than rod smith from previous years...

but he'll always be the man in my book...heck he carried us in 05.

[Rascal]

We can't reduce the total $$ ammount of his salary can we (the lifespan), so we will just be extending it some more correct?

How will restructuring affect the cap long term?

[Elway 4 Life]

We need to keep Rod as a player for as long as he wants to. When he's ready to call it quits we need to hire him as a coach of some sort. He is a bronco for life.

[12th man]

We need to keep Rod as a player for as long as he wants to. When he's ready to call it quits we need to hire him as a coach of some sort. He is a bronco for life.

Amen to that!

[2KBack]

i hear ya...but i'm not going by numbers...i'm going by what i saw...

rod just didn't get as open as he typically has in prior seasons....

he wasn't as effective after the catch...

there were some times where a play would be called to get rod in some open space and he just didn't make the plays that he did in years past...

it's not a bad thing....the guy is 37 yrs old!

plus rod didn't suck last year..he still made plays....he's a warrior...i'm comparing rod smith to rod smith...not rod smith to other NFL WRs....rod smith of last year is a step slower than rod smith from previous years...

but he'll always be the man in my book...heck he carried us in 05.

On the same note, I saw several times when Rod had his guy burned only to have a pass sail behind him or flying over his head. I did notice a few more drops than normal, but I attribute that to the concussion problems last season, and Jakes attempts to lead him into flying safety helmets. I was a huge Jake supporter last season, but the fact is, if Rod takes a pay cut, it was Plummer that cost him that cash.

I personally didn't see the slowdown, I just saw a WR failing to make a struggling QB look good.

[eddie mac]

We can't reduce the total $$ ammount of his salary can we (the lifespan), so we will just be extending it some more correct?

How will restructuring affect the cap long term?

Any base salary turned into bonuses will all hit the cap when he retires unless it's a roster bonus which hits in total in the year it is given. He still has 3 years left on his deal including this upcoming season but Rod has restructured his deal so many times I dont even think the Front Office know how much bonus money he has left.

[footstepsfrom#27]

We need to keep Rod as a player for as long as he wants to. When he's ready to call it quits we need to hire him as a coach of some sort. He is a bronco for life.
I could actually see Rod being very successful as a head coach some day in the league.

[baja]

honestly, the guy should probably retire, but we know he will hang around for another year. He hit a wall, fell off the cliff, stick a fork in him. Great player, great bronco, nothing but thanks for his efforts.

Unfortunately this is how it works in the nfl, stars of yesterday end up hurting the future of the franchise, and as long as rod is getting paid he is holding the team back. We may not agree with it, but thats how it is, remember bruce smith, thurman thomas, andre reed, the list goes on and on, but lets hope rod goes out with some grace after this year.

In the meantime give us as much as possible back, we will return the favor by giving him some cash upfront, and then we can add an additional 2 starters on the club with his mula.

I suppose it's attitudes like this that players do not jump throw hoops to sign autographs for hours at a time or stop eating their dinner at a restaurant to chat with a fan. They know it's business and fan loyalty is pretty much a joke. If I were a player I would take comfort with the fact that I had 25 million in the bank when I retired and my knees hurt in the morning every day for the rest of my life

[crazyhorse]

Why blame the NFLPA?

Why not blame the organization that tries to back out of the contract they negotiated with Smith? Considering the jump in salary cap this season, it's a wonder they dont just pay the guy his money.

[Rascal]

Hey Crazy it looks like your center is going to retire. That's going to hurt. Plus Shields is always on the verge of retirement.

By the time Herm gets your defense solidified your offense is going to be complete crap.

[eddie mac]

Why blame the NFLPA?

Why not blame the organization that tries to back out of the contract they negotiated with Smith? Considering the jump in salary cap this season, it's a wonder they dont just pay the guy his money.


Coming from the fan of a franchise that never purges players because of their high cap numbers.:D

[crazyhorse]

Hey Crazy it looks like your center is going to retire. That's going to hurt. Plus Shields is always on the verge of retirement.

By the time Herm gets your defense solidified your offense is going to be complete crap.

Cant argue with you there.

KC has a reputation for good O lines. I hope it continues to be that way. I remember freaking out when Grunny and Zsott left. I was worried about nothing. I'll just have to wait and see how it shakes out.

[Ratboy]

If we get a stud running back, I have no doubt we'll have a top 5 offense next year.

Cutler will make our running game better and our running game will make Cutler better. Lets hope we get a running back worth a damn.

oh yeah, and a defensive end.

[crazyhorse]

Coming from the fan of a franchise that never purges players because of their high cap numbers.:D

The, "I know you are but what am I" defense?

You can bet when they do perge players because of thier cap numbers, I wont blame the NFLPA.

You could have just said that I was right. It's more effective.

[TailgateNut]

On the same note, I saw several times when Rod had his guy burned only to have a pass sail behind him or flying over his head. I did notice a few more drops than normal, but I attribute that to the concussion problems last season, and Jakes attempts to lead him into flying safety helmets. I was a huge Jake supporter last season, but the fact is, if Rod takes a pay cut, it was Plummer that cost him that cash.

I personally didn't see the slowdown, I just saw a WR failing to make a struggling QB look good.

Thank you. When Jake made Javon his go to guy last year, I saw many times when he would toss the rock to Javon in double coverage with a third defender closing fast and on the other side of the field Rod was a walk away from the first down or the TD.
They don't seem to show that on the tube, but if you pay attention to the game on the field you'ld know he may have lost a step, but with the attention Javon draws, if he's used properly, he's still a weapon.

Rod needs to retire a bronco!

[orange crusher]

People assume that Rod's drop in production this year is a result of him slowing down. I'm not at all sure that's the case. I think it MAY be partly due to age, because he has lost a step, but pure speed was never Rod's game anyway. I think Jake Plummer and his weak arm had a lot to do with Rod's numbers falling off.

Since Shanahan started keeping Jake on a leash, we've seen the #2 receiver basically dissapear in this offense. It happened first when Rod was the #1 and Lelie was #2, and we had Rod getting most of the balls and Lelie complaining about his role, which formerly had been as a deep receiver, but changed when Shanahan stopped having faith in letting Jake throw long. Lelie's numbers plummeted immediately once that happened. When Walker came on board Jake started using him not to go deep (since Jake wasn't allowed to throw it long but once or twice a game), but in the short to medium zones where Rod basically made his living in the past.

Shanahan obviously did not want Jake going deep because it's an INT looking for a place to happen. Jake, for whatever reason, did not seem capable of spreading the ball around in the short and medium passing game, but instead he tended to focus in on one receiver. Once Javon got here, he became that guy and Rod was relegated to an afterthought by Jake. I have a feeling that Rod will suprise once he has an opportunity to work with Cutler. Jay will use Javon deep and he won't hesitate to spread the ball around either. It would not suprise me to see both Rod and Marshall have big years. Another 1000 yard season might not happen since we now have more than 2 WR's capable of sharing catches, but if Rod gets 800 yards and Marshall another 800 that would not suprise me either. We're in the place now where we don't have to get 1100 yards and 8 TD's from Rod because with Marshall and Scheffler here now, this offense has the ability to offer multiple targets for an arm like the one Cutler's got.

Rod has been the soul of this team since Elway retired, and we need to make sure we treat him right in the last couple years he has left, even if that means we don't get to bring in an extra free agent toy in the off season. I don't think he's done yet, and when he is, I hope he leaves here feeling like the Broncos treated him as well as he treated them.

What he said.

[freak6]

What he said.

x 3

[Garcia Bronco]

Plus...Rod gets paid to block


x4

[crowebomber]

Rod will do whatever is needed to win. He's the unselfish guy that everyone wants on their team. Remember, he's the guy who goes out every training camp and every practice with the mindset that he is fighting for a job every play.

If he takes a cut and ends up being the #3 receiver, he's the kind of guy that is totally cool with that as long as it is helping his team to win.

And it wouldn't surprise me if he went in as a #3 and still caught 60-plus balls. Just think how great that would be to have Rod lined up against another team's nickle cb in that #3 slot.

[rugbythug]

When Rod Restructures in the past he is not loosing a penny so I don't understand why people should cry about his restructuring for us as a good reason to pay him more.

Let's face the facts Rod will make more money here by taking a paycut than he would make anywhere else. That is why he would do it. Football is the best sport in America because contracts are not guaranteed. This makes for a much better labor system for the sport in general.

[worm]

They will need to flat-out cut Rod before he stops.

It won't happen this year.

Or next.

That is why he is the third greatest Bronco of all time; behind only #7 and #44.

[NYBronco]

On the same note, I saw several times when Rod had his guy burned only to have a pass sail behind him or flying over his head. I did notice a few more drops than normal, but I attribute that to the concussion problems last season, and Jakes attempts to lead him into flying safety helmets. I was a huge Jake supporter last season, but the fact is, if Rod takes a pay cut, it was Plummer that cost him that cash.

I personally didn't see the slowdown, I just saw a WR failing to make a struggling QB look good.

My thoughts exactly...

[Blueflame]

honestly, the guy should probably retire, but we know he will hang around for another year. He hit a wall, fell off the cliff, stick a fork in him. Great player, great bronco, nothing but thanks for his efforts.

Unfortunately this is how it works in the nfl, stars of yesterday end up hurting the future of the franchise, and as long as rod is getting paid he is holding the team back. We may not agree with it, but thats how it is, remember bruce smith, thurman thomas, andre reed, the list goes on and on, but lets hope rod goes out with some grace after this year.

In the meantime give us as much as possible back, we will return the favor by giving him some cash upfront, and then we can add an additional 2 starters on the club with his mula.

I couldn't disagree more with this post... Rod didn't "hit a wall" or "fall off a cliff" and it's not yet time to "stick a fork in him". He is still an asset to the team, even in his 13th NFL season. No, he's probably not a #1 WR anymore, particularly not when we've got a young stud like Javon... but trust me on this, he'll give Marshall a run for his money for the #2 spot.

The '06 Broncos were a run-first team; with 488 rushing attempts for 2152 yards and 12 touchdowns vs. 454 pass attempts (256 completed) for 2995 yards, 20 touchdowns (8 to Walker, 4 to Scheffler, 3 to Smith, 2 to Alexander, 2 to Marshall, and 1 to K. Johnson), and 18 interceptions.

Any WR who can still add 500+ yards per season (not to mention invaluable veteran leadership) to the team is still productive.

[Atlas]

Rod Smith deserves his money. What a raw deal the NFLPA has worked out for their clientele.

He made over $6 million for 52 catches last year he can pay some of that back. It won't kill him.

[Broncojef]

[QUOTE=Blueflame;1476400]I couldn't disagree more with this post... Rod didn't "hit a wall" or "fall off a cliff" and it's not yet time to "stick a fork in him". He is still an asset to the team, even in his 13th NFL season. No, he's probably not a #1 WR anymore, particularly not when we've got a young stud like Javon... but trust me on this, he'll give Marshall a run for his money for the #2 spot.

The fact of the matter is Rod is in the final throws of his career and his numbers are going down. We shouldn't be paying a guy thats not producing as a #1 that kind of money. Slice it however you want he's a great guy etc but the NFL is a business and everyone knows contracts aren't guaranteed, bonuses are. As for me thinking Rod deserves less money it has no bearing on me as a Broncos fan and his eagerness to sign a football. I expect nothing out of him as a fan just produce for what you are being paid. if you don't you'll make less money and we will bring other studs in. Rod is no whiny Asslie type he knows the deal and will do right to save the Broncos money in line with his production.

[Blueflame]

I couldn't disagree more with this post... Rod didn't "hit a wall" or "fall off a cliff" and it's not yet time to "stick a fork in him". He is still an asset to the team, even in his 13th NFL season. No, he's probably not a #1 WR anymore, particularly not when we've got a young stud like Javon... but trust me on this, he'll give Marshall a run for his money for the #2 spot.

The fact of the matter is Rod is in the final throws of his career and his numbers are going down. We shouldn't be paying a guy thats not producing as a #1 that kind of money. Slice it however you want he's a great guy etc but the NFL is a business and everyone knows contracts aren't guaranteed, bonuses are. As for me thinking Rod deserves less money it has no bearing on me as a Broncos fan and his eagerness to sign a football. I expect nothing out of him as a fan just produce for what you are being paid. if you don't you'll make less money and we will bring other studs in. Rod is no whiny Asslie type he knows the deal and will do right to save the Broncos money in line with his production.

From '05 to '06, offensive production in general went down; not just Rod Smith's stats. Perhaps you can tell me, looking at the numbers (QBs and top 2 WRs), what one factor might be...
2005:
| Jake Plummer | 16 | 277 456 60.7 3366 7.4 18 7 | 46 151 2 |
| Bradlee VanPelt | 3 | 2 8 25.0 7 0.9 0 0 | 11 48 1 |

| Ashley Lelie | 16 | 5 84 16.8 0 | 42 770 18.3 1 |
| Rod Smith | 16 | 1 7 7.0 0 | 85 1105 13.0 6 |

2006:
| Jay Cutler | 5 | 81 137 59.1 1001 7.3 9 5 | 12 18 0 |
| Jake Plummer | 16 | 175 317 55.2 1994 6.3 11 13 | 36 112 1 |

| Rod Smith | 16 | 1 -5 -5.0 0 | 52 512 9.8 3 |
| Javon Walker | 16 | 9 123 13.7 1 | 69 1084 15.7 8 |

Yeah, Rod's slipped to #2 behind Javon... but his numbers would very likely have been more impressive if Plummer's numbers hadn't taken such a steep nosedive. WR performance is directly related to QB performance.

[Atlas]

From '05 to '06, offensive production in general went down; not just Rod Smith's stats. Perhaps you can tell me, looking at the numbers (QBs and top 2 WRs), what one factor might be...
2005:
| Jake Plummer | 16 | 277 456 60.7 3366 7.4 18 7 | 46 151 2 |
| Bradlee VanPelt | 3 | 2 8 25.0 7 0.9 0 0 | 11 48 1 |

| Ashley Lelie | 16 | 5 84 16.8 0 | 42 770 18.3 1 |
| Rod Smith | 16 | 1 7 7.0 0 | 85 1105 13.0 6 |

2006:
| Jay Cutler | 5 | 81 137 59.1 1001 7.3 9 5 | 12 18 0 |
| Jake Plummer | 16 | 175 317 55.2 1994 6.3 11 13 | 36 112 1 |

| Rod Smith | 16 | 1 -5 -5.0 0 | 52 512 9.8 3 |
| Javon Walker | 16 | 9 123 13.7 1 | 69 1084 15.7 8 |

Yeah, Rod's slipped to #2 behind Javon... but his numbers would very likely have been more impressive if Plummer's numbers hadn't taken such a steep nosedive. WR performance is directly related to QB performance.

Walker's numbers went up dramatically from 2005 to 2006.

[Fusionfrontman]

I agree..i dont think anyone really expect us to struggle so badly this year considering we had just come back from beng in the AFC champ game. In a nutshell, gotta get my opinion out, Rods numbers dropping are due to Jakes.
Like someone earlier said, walkers a 80-100 ball guy, and his numbers were much lower than that.

[ludo21]

Pay the Man!!!

Or else move his money to guaranteed so it doesnt hit the cap.

[Jackson's *Mom*]

Get the **** outta here....he didn't hit a wall....and there is no fork in him..
Even if it's true...who gives a ****...the guy is a life time member and can stay as long as he likes for all I care. He is one of our GOATS and you should show him and blackjack pizza some respect.

I second this, you have got to be kidding me. Rod has earned the right to stay as long as he wants to. He is the epitome of what a Broncos player & NFL player should be. In my opinion he has earned this respect. He is the ultimate team player and sets a great example of what a player should strive to be. Sometimes there is more to it then just making plays. Rod brings a h#ll of a lot more to our organization then just plays. His character should be rewarded as well, what kind of example would it set if we didn't honor HIS commitment to this team. Unbelievable, when so called "fans" open their mouths. There is now way you could have been a fan Rod's entire career and speak this way, no way. I love and respect you Rod, I also appreciate what you have done for this organization and for me. IN ROD I TRUST!!!!

[Hercules Rockefeller]

$5.5M is the 2nd highest base salary among WRs in the ENTIRE league next season. A 50-catch guy is not worth anywhere near that amount of money.

Anyone who thinks Rod deserves every penny next year has forfeited any right to complain about the lack of FA signings this offseason.

[Blueflame]

Walker's numbers went up dramatically from 2005 to 2006.

A players numbers do tend to be affected by a season-ending injury, and Walker's stats for '05 show that. ;) However, his '04 numbers (with the Packers and Favre) are better than his '06 numbers in Denver with Plummer.

G GS Rec Yards Avg Lg TD 20+ 40+ 1st
2004: 16 12 89 1382 15.5 79 12 19 7 63

2006: 16 16 69 1084 15.7 83 8 16 4 53

[Blueflame]

$5.5M is the 2nd highest base salary among WRs in the ENTIRE league next season. A 50-catch guy is not worth anywhere near that amount of money.

Anyone who thinks Rod deserves every penny next year has forfeited any right to complain about the lack of FA signings this offseason.

Does anyone really think Rod will be even halfway reluctant to work with the team re: his salary? He's a team player... always has been and I'd be very surprised if he isn't more than willing to renegotiate.

[RunSilentRunDeep]

I second this, you have got to be kidding me. Rod has earned the right to stay as long as he wants to. He is the epitome of what a Broncos player & NFL player should be. In my opinion he has earned this respect. He is the ultimate team player and sets a great example of what a player should strive to be. Sometimes there is more to it then just making plays. Rod brings a h#ll of a lot more to our organization then just plays. His character should be rewarded as well, what kind of example would it set if we didn't honor HIS commitment to this team. Unbelievable, when so called "fans" open their mouths. There is now way you could have been a fan Rod's entire career and speak this way, no way. I love and respect you Rod, I also appreciate what you have done for this organization and for me. IN ROD I TRUST!!!!

Cry me a freaking river. First, the Broncos have been great to Rod. Those restructurings weren't pay cuts, they were advances. Rod's ripped up deals were a gift most other players didn’t get.

Second, Rod knew he was never going to get paid $6.5M this year. The backend numbers of a contract are nothing but bragging rights for the players and the agents who negotiated the deals. The reason bonuses get scheduled for March is because it sets a deadline for the player and team to reach a new agreement while still giving the player options if a new deal isn’t struck. Right now, Al Wilson knows damn well the team has no intention of paying $6.9M in 2010. That’s just the way it is.

Third, there are going to be 52 other players on the team next year. All of them are one play away from never playing again. Is everyone comfortable with reducing their chance to a win Super Bowl so a multimillionaire can eat up unnecessary cap space?

Finally, I’m a Rod fan-- always have been ever since he beat the Redskins on the final play. Met him once, seemed like a fine guy. But I’m a Bronco fan first. I’ve been buying tickets, merchandise, flying to away games and screaming my guts out for 20 years longer than Rod’s been with the team. I want to see them win the Super Bowl this year. And that requires paying players according to the expected production in the coming season. Based on watching Rod all last season, his production next year isn’t going to be much, so he shouldn’t be paid much.

[Atlas]

I second this, you have got to be kidding me. Rod has earned the right to stay as long as he wants to. He is the epitome of what a Broncos player & NFL player should be. In my opinion he has earned this respect. He is the ultimate team player and sets a great example of what a player should strive to be. Sometimes there is more to it then just making plays. Rod brings a h#ll of a lot more to our organization then just plays. His character should be rewarded as well, what kind of example would it set if we didn't honor HIS commitment to this team. Unbelievable, when so called "fans" open their mouths. There is now way you could have been a fan Rod's entire career and speak this way, no way. I love and respect you Rod, I also appreciate what you have done for this organization and for me. IN ROD I TRUST!!!!

There isn't going to be a problem between you and Heydensmom is there?? I mean she was here first.

[watermock]

This isn't a matter of disrespect to Rod...there is something called the salary cap. The stone cold fact is simply moving a very expensive salary into the future yet again isn't a viable option, not at 37. I haven't heard ANYONE say he should play for the minimum vet plus the bonus the NFL kicks in.

The Broncos will get it worked out. People have to be cognizant of the fact he's also had multiple concussions.

[Blueflame]

Cry me a freaking river. First, the Broncos have been great to Rod. Those restructurings weren't pay cuts, they were advances. Rod's ripped up deals were a gift most other players didn’t get.

Second, Rod knew he was never going to get paid $6.5M this year. The backend numbers of a contract are nothing but bragging rights for the players and the agents who negotiated the deals. The reason bonuses get scheduled for March is because it sets a deadline for the player and team to reach a new agreement while still giving the player options if a new deal isn’t struck. Right now, Al Wilson knows damn well the team has no intention of paying $6.9M in 2010. That’s just the way it is.

Third, there are going to be 52 other players on the team next year. All of them are one play away from never playing again. Is everyone comfortable with reducing their chance to a win Super Bowl so a multimillionaire can eat up unnecessary cap space?

Finally, I’m a Rod fan-- always have been ever since he beat the Redskins on the final play. Met him once, seemed like a fine guy. But I’m a Bronco fan first. I’ve been buying tickets, merchandise, flying to away games and screaming my guts out for 20 years longer than Rod’s been with the team. I want to see them win the Super Bowl this year. And that requires paying players according to the expected production in the coming season. Based on watching Rod all last season, his production next year isn’t going to be much, so he shouldn’t be paid much.

The money that has been and/or will be paid to Rod is a mere drop in the bucket compared to the dead salary cap $$ devoted to our last two costly QB "experiments"... if we're unable (under the cap) to afford to address problem areas via the FA market, look no further than Jake Plummer when pointing that finger at signing bonus/salary costs.

[eddie mac]

Does anyone really think Rod will be even halfway reluctant to work with the team re: his salary? He's a team player... always has been and I'd be very surprised if he isn't more than willing to renegotiate.

It depends on what you mean by that. He could either restructure and turn the majority of his base salary into a signing bonus which helps the Broncos this year but will leave a sizeable amount of dead money on future years caps if he plays for only one more season. Or alternatively they may well ask him to take a paycut. That helps the Broncos the most now and in future cap years. I believe they'll be requesting the latter.

[Northman]

I doubt Rod takes a paycut. He wont ask for more money but he sees this team is rebuilding for the future and wants to make sure he gets " his " before he exits the game.

[eddie mac]

The money that has been and/or will be paid to Rod is a mere drop in the bucket compared to the dead salary cap $$ devoted to our last two costly QB "experiments"... if we're unable (under the cap) to afford to address problem areas via the FA market, look no further than Jake Plummer when pointing that finger at signing bonus/salary costs.Who gave him the option bonus or was that Coyer's fault as well.:D

[eddie mac]

I doubt Rod takes a paycut. He wont ask for more money but he sees this team is rebuilding for the future and wants to make sure he gets " his " before he exits the game.

He'll take a paycut for one last shot with rocket arm. If Rod believes Shanahan will utilise his money to strengthen the team for a shot this year he'll do it. Just wait and see. Paycut now for a well-paid coaching position in 2008.

[Blueflame]

Who gave him the option bonus or was that Coyer's fault as well.:D

I blame Plummer's agent. Ha!

[Rascal]

The money that has been and/or will be paid to Rod is a mere drop in the bucket compared to the dead salary cap $$ devoted to our last two costly QB "experiments"... if we're unable (under the cap) to afford to address problem areas via the FA market, look no further than Jake Plummer when pointing that finger at signing bonus/salary costs.

Plummer hasn't been cut or traded yet, so we don't know what the cap hit will be for this year.

And with 7.6 mil in cap room, before Jake, Rod, etc restructuring/moves, there is plenty of room to address a problem in FA.

[eddie mac]

Plummer hasn't been cut or traded yet, so we don't know what the cap hit will be for this year.

And with 7.6 mil in cap room, before Jake, Rod, etc restructuring/moves, there is plenty of room to address a problem in FA.

Only $4m according to Legwold and Williamson.

[Jackson's *Mom*]

There isn't going to be a problem between you and Heydensmom is there?? I mean she was here first.


I've been here for quite some time. I just don't feel the need to post, unless something elicits a response from me. This was my third post since Sep-2003 the first one I don't remember, the second one was after Darrent died. Obviously the third was today. I just don't understand how quickly some people are to turn on a player. I agree that 99/100 times, performance should match pay. But if any player deserves our loyalty, in my mind it would be Rod Smith. I guess in some circumstances there are more important things to me then winning a super bowl, granted not many. The free agency period is going to be weak this year anyway, and I'm sure if we needed money to sign someone, Rod would have no problem accommodating a request. In my mind ceratin things are off limits, Rod has earned that respect from me. If ever there was a time to overpay a player, to me this would be it. Rod actions over the next year will back up my reaction & respect. Whether that be a reduction in pay or stepping aside and doing everything possible to help Marshall become an effective number 2 receiver in this league. I could care less is he is a "multimillionaire", my response is due to the respect that I have for Rod, nothing more or less.

[watermock]

You don't push salary into SB with a 37 year old WR. His roster bonus of 1M and around 2M salary would be more than fair.

[watermock]

I've been here for quite some time. I just don't feel the need to post, unless something elicits a response from me. This was my third post since Sep-2003 the first one I don't remember, the second one was after Darrent died. Obviously the third was today. I just don't understand how quickly some people are to turn on a player. I agree that 99/100 times, performance should match pay. But if any player deserves our loyalty, in my mind it would be Rod Smith. I guess in some circumstances there are more important things to me then winning a super bowl, granted not many. The free agency period is going to be weak this year anyway, and I'm sure if we needed money to sign someone, Rod would have no problem accommodating a request. In my mind ceratin things are off limits, Rod has earned that respect from me. If ever there was a time to overpay a player, to me this would be it. Rod actions over the next year will back up my reaction & respect. Whether that be a reduction in pay or stepping aside and doing everything possible to help Marshall become an effective number 2 receiver in this league. I could care less is he is a "multimillionaire", my response is due to the respect that I have for Rod, nothing more or less.

There is never a time to overpay a player, no matter who they are. This isn't a matter of disrespect, which some people are missing. If there wasn't a cap and Jake's hit looming, Bowlen wouldn't even blink to pay his salary whatsoever. Rod simply isn't a 6.5 million dollar WR anymore, period and we are tight against the cap. 3 million would be more than fair.

[Blueflame]

Plummer hasn't been cut or traded yet, so we don't know what the cap hit will be for this year.

And with 7.6 mil in cap room, before Jake, Rod, etc restructuring/moves, there is plenty of room to address a problem in FA.

Does it matter? Whether it's all this year or spread out over two seasons, we're still gonna have roughly 8 mil (if memory serves me correctly) of future cap space invested in a player who'll probably be on another team's roster. Griese also counted a significant amount of money against the cap long after he left the team.

For what we've paid Rod over the years, we've gotten a good return on the field.

[eddie mac]

Does it matter? Whether it's all this year or spread out over two seasons, we're still gonna have roughly 8 mil (if memory serves me correctly) of future cap space invested in a player who'll probably be on another team's roster. Griese also counted a significant amount of money against the cap long after he left the team.

For what we've paid Rod over the years, we've gotten a good return on the field.

Very true and believe me if Plummer wanted to stay in Denver this year he wouldn't be getting paid anywhere near what his deal currently sits at.

[Rascal]

Does it matter? Whether it's all this year or spread out over two seasons, we're still gonna have roughly 8 mil (if memory serves me correctly) of future cap space invested in a player who'll probably be on another team's roster. Griese also counted a significant amount of money against the cap long after he left the team.

For what we've paid Rod over the years, we've gotten a good return on the field.

Of course it matters. You said we can't make a move in FA then we should we blame Jake's salary. If were unable to make a move it won't be because of that.

And you could say based on Jake's record we got a good return on the field.

And if Rod retires next year there is going to be a huge cap hit when that happens, but Rod is a fan favorite so to say otherwise is blasphemy but if it's Jake/Griese then it's okay. The players aren't the problem, it's the organization for being poor money managers.

[Rascal]

Only $4m according to Legwold and Williamson.

Link.

[Rascal]

I agree..i dont think anyone really expect us to struggle so badly this year considering we had just come back from beng in the AFC champ game. In a nutshell, gotta get my opinion out, Rods numbers dropping are due to Jakes.
Like someone earlier said, walkers a 80-100 ball guy, and his numbers were much lower than that.

Really. Then explain why Javon averaged receptions per game was less with Cutler then Jake, and Rod's receptions per game was exactly the same with Cutler as it was with Jake.

Yet again people on this board want to blame everything on Jake for this season, he was a only a single piece of the problem and not even the biggest one at that. Just the easiest to see and "fix" during the season, although I contend replacing Foster was the easiest fix until Meadows got hurt.

[eddie mac]

Link.

http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/denver/broncos/archives/2007/01/by_the_numbers.html#more

Overall, the Broncos have roughly $3.8 million worth of projected room under the expected $109 million salary cap right now. Because Plummer's salary cap number for '07 and the salary cap charge to cut him before June 1 or trade him are so close, they have the same amount of room either way.

http://www.denverpost.com/williamson/ci_5102544

There is no urgency or panic involved as the team begins planning for the 2007 season. The team already is close to $4 million under the salary cap.

[SoCalBronco]

Rod needs to come down to 2.5.

[Rascal]

Then why did everybody, including yourself and herc, state that we had around 7-8 mil?

[RunSilentRunDeep]

The money that has been and/or will be paid to Rod is a mere drop in the bucket compared to the dead salary cap $$ devoted to our last two costly QB "experiments"... if we're unable (under the cap) to afford to address problem areas via the FA market, look no further than Jake Plummer when pointing that finger at signing bonus/salary costs.

I guess there's a requirement that Jake be brought into every thread. But it's the same point: if Jake were making $1M he'd be money well spent as a backup, but he's making over $5M so he's getting the boot, just as he should be.

Let's not start making one contract mistake the excuse for another.

[Rascal]

I guess there's a requirement that Jake be brought into every thread.

LOL

Quotted for truth.

[Broncojef]

From '05 to '06, offensive production in general went down; not just Rod Smith's stats. Perhaps you can tell me, looking at the numbers (QBs and top 2 WRs), what one factor might be...
2005:
| Jake Plummer | 16 | 277 456 60.7 3366 7.4 18 7 | 46 151 2 |
| Bradlee VanPelt | 3 | 2 8 25.0 7 0.9 0 0 | 11 48 1 |

| Ashley Lelie | 16 | 5 84 16.8 0 | 42 770 18.3 1 |
| Rod Smith | 16 | 1 7 7.0 0 | 85 1105 13.0 6 |

2006:
| Jay Cutler | 5 | 81 137 59.1 1001 7.3 9 5 | 12 18 0 |
| Jake Plummer | 16 | 175 317 55.2 1994 6.3 11 13 | 36 112 1 |

| Rod Smith | 16 | 1 -5 -5.0 0 | 52 512 9.8 3 |
| Javon Walker | 16 | 9 123 13.7 1 | 69 1084 15.7 8 |

Yeah, Rod's slipped to #2 behind Javon... but his numbers would very likely have been more impressive if Plummer's numbers hadn't taken such a steep nosedive. WR performance is directly related to QB performance.

I'm not going to argue against Rod, I'm a true Bronco fan and love the guy but $5.5mill is just not what the man is worth this next year and if we seriously want to give hime another run or two at the SB we need some of that money. I'm more in favor of having a dominating bronco team than Rod overpayed for a couple years because we all feel a loyalty to him. Rod has earned his money and has been very well compensated in the past. Any restructuring he did turned into Bonuses that were paid to him upfront, he never lost money and actually had the benefit of gaining his own interest by having the money sooner in every case. Slice the numbers however you want the fact remains Rod doesn't have alot left in the tank and the concussions may force him totally out of the game this year anyway.

[eddie mac]

He's not the only one. Elam will be the highest paid kicker in the league next season at a base of $2.25m. It's the final year of his contract so I can see a little restructure there and an extension to boot. Unless we draft Crosby.

These are possibly the other base salaries the front office will be looking to tweak and turn into signing bonuses.

Wilson $5.2m
Bailey $5.5m
Ekuban $2.2m
Lang $2m
Hamilton $2.75m
Lepsis $3.15m
Gold $2.3m

2 players who I feel are in danger of being cut because of their base salaries.

Alexander $1.42m
Engelberger $1.36m (Albeit they only gave John an extension last year)

Whether Courtney Brown returns or not doesn't make a lot of difference cap-wise as he's on a relatively low base salary and his contract's incentive layden.

[Rascal]

From '05 to '06, offensive production in general went down; not just Rod Smith's stats. Perhaps you can tell me, looking at the numbers (QBs and top 2 WRs), what one factor might be...
2005:
| Jake Plummer | 16 | 277 456 60.7 3366 7.4 18 7 | 46 151 2 |
| Bradlee VanPelt | 3 | 2 8 25.0 7 0.9 0 0 | 11 48 1 |

| Ashley Lelie | 16 | 5 84 16.8 0 | 42 770 18.3 1 |
| Rod Smith | 16 | 1 7 7.0 0 | 85 1105 13.0 6 |

2006:
| Jay Cutler | 5 | 81 137 59.1 1001 7.3 9 5 | 12 18 0 |
| Jake Plummer | 16 | 175 317 55.2 1994 6.3 11 13 | 36 112 1 |

| Rod Smith | 16 | 1 -5 -5.0 0 | 52 512 9.8 3 |
| Javon Walker | 16 | 9 123 13.7 1 | 69 1084 15.7 8 |

Yeah, Rod's slipped to #2 behind Javon... but his numbers would very likely have been more impressive if Plummer's numbers hadn't taken such a steep nosedive. WR performance is directly related to QB performance.

Yet again people blaming Jake.

Which QB did Javon have a higher average receptions per game with? It isn't Cutler.

BTW, Rod had EXACTLY the same average for receptions per game with both Jake and Cutler. But it's obviously Jake's fault.

[Blueflame]

Of course it matters. You said we can't make a move in FA then we should we blame Jake's salary. If were unable to make a move it won't be because of that.

And you could say based on Jake's record we got a good return on the field.

And if Rod retires next year there is going to be a huge cap hit when that happens, but Rod is a fan favorite so to say otherwise is blasphemy but if it's Jake/Griese then it's okay. The players aren't the problem, it's the organization for being poor money managers.

If you check out Herc's post (#54 in this thread), it says "$5.5M is the 2nd highest base salary among WRs in the ENTIRE league next season. A 50-catch guy is not worth anywhere near that amount of money.

Anyone who thinks Rod deserves every penny next year has forfeited any right to complain about the lack of FA signings this offseason."

My post was in response to that one...

Pardon me, but it's my opinion that Rod's been pretty much the MVP of the team a lot of the years since #7's retirement.

Worrying about the relatively small cap hit from a future Ring of Fame (if not HOF) WR when your (soon-to-be-cut-or-traded) QB is making a much bigger dent is like haggling over a handful of loose change while being totally cavalier about dollars. And yes, the organization has overpaid for QBs... in my humble opinion... since Elway retired.

[eddie mac]

Then why did everybody, including yourself and herc, state that we had around 7-8 mil?

Because it was reported on other sites and links were provided at the time. Estimating the Broncos cap is a bit of nightmare considering no-one reports the details of contracts much anymore unlike Scheffler used to.

Some sites still have that number of $7-$8m.

http://www.askthecommish.com/salarycap/numbers.asp

[Rascal]

If you check out Herc's post (#54 in this thread), it says "$5.5M is the 2nd highest base salary among WRs in the ENTIRE league next season. A 50-catch guy is not worth anywhere near that amount of money.

Anyone who thinks Rod deserves every penny next year has forfeited any right to complain about the lack of FA signings this offseason."

My post was in response to that one...

Pardon me, but it's my opinion that Rod's been pretty much the MVP of the team a lot of the years since #7's retirement.

Worrying about the relatively small cap hit from a future Ring of Fame (if not HOF) WR when your (soon-to-be-cut-or-traded) QB is making a much bigger dent is like haggling over a handful of loose change while being totally cavalier about dollars. And yes, the organization has overpaid for QBs... in my humble opinion... since Elway retired.

Actually your post was in response to #57 by Runsilent, not Hercs.

Sorry but Rod's cap hit is not small.

[Blueflame]

I guess there's a requirement that Jake be brought into every thread. But it's the same point: if Jake were making $1M he'd be money well spent as a backup, but he's making over $5M so he's getting the boot, just as he should be.

Let's not start making one contract mistake the excuse for another.

Yeah, 'cause... y'know, Rod was supposed to throw more passes to himself. Right. LOL

Did I miss something about Rod refusing to negotiate with the team or something? He's always been all about the team.

[Rascal]

Because it was reported on other sites and links were provided at the time. Estimating the Broncos cap is a bit of nightmare considering no-one reports the details of contracts much anymore unlike Scheffler used to.

Some sites still have that number of $7-$8m.

http://www.askthecommish.com/salarycap/numbers.asp

Well I'll go with the higher number :)

[Rascal]

Yeah, 'cause... y'know, Rod was supposed to throw more passes to himself. Right. LOL

Did I miss something about Rod refusing to negotiate with the team or something? He's always been all about the team.

Yeah, 'cause...y'know Rod averaged exactly the same receptions per game with Cutler as he did with Jake. So it's obviously the QB's fault.

[Blueflame]

I'm not going to argue against Rod, I'm a true Bronco fan and love the guy but $5.5mill is just not what the man is worth this next year and if we seriously want to give hime another run or two at the SB we need some of that money. I'm more in favor of having a dominating bronco team than Rod overpayed for a couple years because we all feel a loyalty to him. Rod has earned his money and has been very well compensated in the past. Any restructuring he did turned into Bonuses that were paid to him upfront, he never lost money and actually had the benefit of gaining his own interest by having the money sooner in every case. Slice the numbers however you want the fact remains Rod doesn't have alot left in the tank and the concussions may force him totally out of the game this year anyway.

Rod will do what it takes to help out the team. I'm sure of that. Or the performance of the youngsters will make him expendable. One of the two... my money's on him working with the team to get under the cap with the FAs we need to make a serious run at the SB.

[eddie mac]

If you check out Herc's post (#54 in this thread), it says "$5.5M is the 2nd highest base salary among WRs in the ENTIRE league next season. A 50-catch guy is not worth anywhere near that amount of money.

Anyone who thinks Rod deserves every penny next year has forfeited any right to complain about the lack of FA signings this offseason."

My post was in response to that one...

Pardon me, but it's my opinion that Rod's been pretty much the MVP of the team a lot of the years since #7's retirement.

Worrying about the relatively small cap hit from a future Ring of Fame (if not HOF) WR when your (soon-to-be-cut-or-traded) QB is making a much bigger dent is like haggling over a handful of loose change while being totally cavalier about dollars. And yes, the organization has overpaid for QBs... in my humble opinion... since Elway retired.

Do you actually realise what $5m can land you in today's market if the player is prepared to take Denver's initial (low base salary) huge signing bonus contracts???

Warren signed a 6 year $34m deal last season, now ESPN and whoever will say he's on $5-$6m a year. When in actual fact his cap hit was approx only $2m last year because of the way the Broncos front office structured it. Low base salaries for the first 2-3 seasons then huge jumps.

If they were available and wanted to sign for Denver technically you could land 2 top FA's and fit both under this year's cap with only $5m in cap space.

[Blueflame]

Yet again people blaming Jake.

Which QB did Javon have a higher average receptions per game with? It isn't Cutler.

BTW, Rod had EXACTLY the same average for receptions per game with both Jake and Cutler. But it's obviously Jake's fault.

Rod is not the only player on the offensive side of the ball whose stats declined last year. And yes, Plummer's struggles directly affected WR performance. Only a blind Plummer homer would argue otherwise.

[watermock]

Actually, Cutler spread the ball around, had roughly a 2/1 TD/INT ratio, and a higher rating. He also set a record with 4 straight 2 TD games from a rookie. Suddenly Scheff and Marshall appeared. The completion percentage also improved, and he was a rookie without a ton of help in the backfield Sapp also went down, who was finally coming on.

I don't know why Jake is coming up. That's completely moot. Since our cap space is now estimated at 3.8 I don't see how virtually doubling that is small potatoes. Your not going to see a restructuring, your going to see a quiet renegotiation.

I'm sure Bailley would throw money into SB but he's got half a decade left and could move to S after that. Makes no sense to throw money into SB or at least not alot.

[watermock]

Yeah, 'cause...y'know Rod averaged exactly the same receptions per game with Cutler as he did with Jake. So it's obviously the QB's fault.

The ball was spread around much more.

[Blueflame]

Actually your post was in response to #57 by Runsilent, not Hercs.

Sorry but Rod's cap hit is not small.

Post #56 (mine) quotes Herc's (#54). ;)

Rod's cap hit isn't small (presuming, as some here seem to have, that he won't budge on the numbers at all), but it's less than Plummer's.

[Rascal]

Rod is not the only player on the offensive side of the ball whose stats declined last year. And yes, Plummer's struggles directly affected WR performance. Only a blind Plummer homer would argue otherwise.

And only a blind idiot wouldn't realize that it didn't matter who the QB was because Rod was still putting up the same production.

[Blueflame]

Yeah, 'cause...y'know Rod averaged exactly the same receptions per game with Cutler as he did with Jake. So it's obviously the QB's fault.

Yeah, 'cause, y'know, Cutler had so very much practice with the first team prior to taking the reins... ::)

Is it really surprising that he seemed more comfortable with Scheffler and Marshall, particularly in the first couple of games?

[Rascal]

Post #56 (mine) quotes Herc's (#54). ;)

Rod's cap hit isn't small (presuming, as some here seem to have, that he won't budge on the numbers at all), but it's less than Plummer's.

I didn't respond to that post.

I responded to your post (#60) quotting Runsilent who posted (#57).

[Rascal]

Do you actually realise what $5m can land you in today's market if the player is prepared to take Denver's initial (low base salary) huge signing bonus contracts???

Warren signed a 6 year $34m deal last season, now ESPN and whoever will say he's on $5-$6m a year. When in actual fact his cap hit was approx only $2m last year because of the way the Broncos front office structured it. Low base salaries for the first 2-3 seasons then huge jumps.

If they were available and wanted to sign for Denver technically you could land 2 top FA's and fit both under this year's cap with only $5m in cap space.

Bingo.

Sorry but if we can get two or even one major upgrade in FA in exchange for Rod then I'm all for it. Espcecially so since it's already been hinted by Shanny that Marshall will be replacing him as our #2.

I'm not saying cut him, but that hit of 5 mil needs to come down by at least 1/2.

[Rascal]

Yeah, 'cause, y'know, Cutler had so very much practice with the first team prior to taking the reins... ::)

Is it really surprising that he seemed more comfortable with Scheffler and Marshall, particularly in the first couple of games?

Sounds like an excuse for Rod's lack of production.

[Blueflame]

And only a blind idiot wouldn't realize that it didn't matter who the QB was because Rod was still putting up the same production.

As Mock noted above, the TE suddenly made a re-emergence when Cutler took the reins, as did a 3rd WR. Going by a single WR's stats to make the contention that the QBs were "the same" performance-wise, is ingenuous at best.

[Rascal]

LOL!!!

So it's because Cutler spreads the ball around that Rod didn't put up better stats? Then if that's the case we definetly don't need Rod as we can put anybody in there at WR (ala Pats).

I never said that the QB's were the same performance wise. I said the WRs' performance was the same regardless of QB. Big difference.

[Blueflame]

Sounds like an excuse for Rod's lack of production.

The guy who really did the underachieving isn't going to be back next year, Rascal. That guy isn't Rod.

[Rascal]

The guy who really did the underachieving isn't going to be back next year, Rascal. That guy isn't Rod.

And IMO Rod having a cap hit of more then 2 mil isn't worth it either.

Difference is you and others hate Jake, and love Rod so you are okay overpaying. I'm not.

[Blueflame]

LOL!!!

So it's because Cutler spreads the ball around that Rod didn't put up better stats? Then if that's the case we definetly don't need Rod as we can put anybody in there at WR (ala Pats).

I never said that the QB's were the same performance wise. I said the WRs' performance was the same regardless of QB. Big difference.

Well, yes, that's simple logic. If a QB is checking down more receivers and involving more targets, then each receiver will individually have fewer touches of the ball.

You're taking one receiver's stats as evidence of a trend... one that didn't have a large enough "sample size" (5 games) to be established.

Watching you diss Rod and defend Plummer is kinda weird, I have to say...

[Blueflame]

And IMO Rod having a cap hit of more then 2 mil isn't worth it either.

Difference is you and others hate Jake, and love Rod so you are okay overpaying. I'm not.

Difference is, I'm willing to wait and see what happens with negotiations over Rod's salary (betting it won't ultimately be anywhere near 5.5mil by the time they're done) before sharpening the ax for the Turk and you apparently are not.

[Rascal]

Well, yes, that's simple logic. If a QB is checking down more receivers and involving more targets, then each receiver will individually have fewer touches of the ball.

You're taking one receiver's stats as evidence of a trend... one that didn't have a large enough "sample size" (5 games) to be established.

Watching you diss Rod and defend Plummer is kinda weird, I have to say...

Are you serious??? I'm not defending Plummer, I'm simply saying that blaming Plummer for Rod's lack of production this year is asinine. And the lack of improvement of his stats playing under a better QB support that. If he went from 3.25 RPG to 3.75 then I could buy that argument. Fact is this: Rod is not worth his 5.5 mil cap hit as Herc previously pointed out. IMO he isn't worth a 2.5 mil cap hit.

[Rascal]

Difference is, I'm willing to wait and see what happens with negotiations over Rod's salary (betting it won't ultimately be anywhere near 5.5mil by the time they're done) before sharpening the ax for the Turk and you apparently are not.

No you are already blaming the broncos inability to get a stud FA because of Jake.

You are blaming the hypothetical situation of the Broncos not being able to get a significant FA signing on Jake, whereas I believe that the blame needs to be spread to several players who are not worth the cap hit (Rod, Gold, Engleberger, Hamilton, and Jake).

[Blueflame]

Are you serious??? I'm not defending Plummer, I'm simply saying that blaming Plummer for Rod's lack of production this year is asinine. And the lack of improvement of his stats playing under a better QB support that. If he went from 3.25 RPG to 3.75 then I could buy that argument. Fact is this: Rod is not worth his 5.5 mil cap hit as Herc previously pointed out. IMO he isn't worth a 2.5 mil cap hit.

When the QB struggles as badly as Plummer did this year, it affects not just his own numbers, but his receivers' numbers as well. Maybe you didn't notice that Javon's numbers weren't as high as they probably should have been either... like they were in '04... or as high as I expect them to be this year.

Have I missed something? Really. I mean, what indication do we have that Rod won't totally re-work his deal and do everything the team needs him to do? Why do you seem so anxious to see him retire or be cut?

[Rascal]

When the QB struggles as badly as Plummer did this year, it affects not just his own numbers, but his receivers' numbers as well. Maybe you didn't notice that Javon's numbers weren't as high as they probably should have been either... like they were in '04... or as high as I expect them to be this year.

What was Javon's RPG with Jake? What was it with Cutler? IMO the lack of WR production can be attributed more to the coaching/playcalling then the QB.

Have I missed something? Really. I mean, what indication do we have that Rod won't totally re-work his deal and do everything the team needs him to do? Why do you seem so anxious to see him retire or be cut?

I'm just tired of everybody always blaming Jake for the faults of this team, and you blaming Jake for preventing this team from getting a FA is crazy IMO. It will be interesting to see who becomes the scape goat next year should Denver not get to the SB. Having a 37 or 38 year old WR with a cap hit of more then 2.5 is not good for the team, especially with a 2nd year WR who could easily match if not exceed his production.

[Blueflame]

No you are already blaming the broncos inability to get a stud FA because of Jake.

You are blaming the hypothetical situation of the Broncos not being able to get a significant FA signing on Jake, whereas I believe that the blame needs to be spread to several players who are not worth the cap hit (Rod, Gold, Engleberger, Hamilton, and Jake).

No, I'm saying if (as Herc's post suggested) we aren't as active as we'd like to be in FA (yes, it's hypothetical, but I do very much respect Herc's grasp of all cap-related stuff), then are we gonna blame it on Rod when Plummer's cap numbers are higher? I'm not. If Rod has a $2.5 mil cap hit, at least he'll be out there on the field playing for our team (where we might get some value for the $$) and not possibly playing for one of our opponents (ie: if Plummer goes to the Texans or Jags as has been rumored).

[Blueflame]

What was Javon's RPG with Jake? What was it with Cutler?
I don't know, to be honest. The info is there in the individual gamebooks on nfl.com, but it would take a lot of work to compile it that way and the point is kinda moot anyway. He caught 89 passes for 1382 yards as the #2 WR in Green Bay in '04, so 69 for 1084 is rather pedestrian. He should do much better next season.
I'm just tired of everybody always blaming Jake for the faults of this team, and you blaming Jake for preventing this team from getting a FA is crazy IMO. It will be interesting to see who becomes the scape goat next year should Denver not get to the SB. Having a 37 or 38 year old WR with a cap hit of more then 2.5 is not good for the team, especially with a 2nd year WR who could easily match if not exceed his production.
Well, we won't have Plummer to kick around much longer, so you should get a respite from the bashing in a matter of months when he goes to a new team.

[Rascal]

The answer is 4.4+ with Jake, and 4.0 with Cutler BTW.

Which further solidifies my point that our offensive woes were not soley because of the QB (heck I would say not even the major problem).

[Blueflame]

The answer is 4.4+ with Jake, and 4.0 with Cutler BTW.

Which further solidifies my point that our offensive woes were not soley because of the QB (heck I would say not even the major problem).

Sure. It was someone else who tossed all those INTs... Hilarious!

No one ever said Plummer was the sole problem on the offense (well, except the Plummer homers who were trying to demolish a strawman... railing against a position that others had never taken). But he most certainly was the major one... and if you were correct that he truly wasn't a major problem, I don't think Shanahan would have made a QB change.

[Rascal]

Sure. It was someone else who tossed all those INTs... Hilarious!

You mean like the two that were ran back for TD's that lost two games? Sure.

Can't argue with facts so you'll reach for a different arguement. Sad.

No one ever said Plummer was the sole problem on the offense (well, except the Plummer homers who were trying to demolish a strawman... railing against a position that others had never taken). But he most certainly was the major one... and if you were correct that he truly wasn't a major problem, I don't think Shanahan would have made a QB change.

Right. LOL

Easiest to fix midseason as there was a competent player backing him up.

[Killericon]

Rod was dropping passes and lacking explosiveness off the line. The only good thing about his play was his route running. If he was a 7th year FA, I wouldn't pay him more than 2 million.

I'm probably kidding myself when I say/think this, but I think the Broncos are a classy enough organization to follow through with their contracts with Players who have been loyal, hard-working, and have taken everything in stride. The guy is a consummate professional, and I hope that Sundquist can be one as well. I hope the Broncos can rise above the NFL's MO of heartlessness. Hopefully he'll restructure, but I don't wanna see Rod Smith get paid less than 2 Million.

[Rascal]

Rod was dropping passes and lacking explosiveness off the line. The only good thing about his play was his route running. If he was a 7th year FA, I wouldn't pay him more than 2 million.

And that says it all IMO. If we were picking up as a FA and his cap hit was 2.5 mil people would be screaming.

Fans are loyal to a player I understand that, but players come and go.

[Blueflame]

You mean like the two that were ran back for TD's that lost two games? Sure.

Can't argue with facts so you'll reach for a different arguement. Sad.



Right. LOL

Easiest to fix midseason as there was a competent player backing him up.

OK, since you apparently want to continue with your assertion that Rod's and Javon's stats (per catch) being better with Plummer than with Cutler means something (anything...), tell me... how do Scheffler's, Alexander's, and Marshall's stats compare by QB? As stated earlier in the thread, these guys suddenly emerged as offensive weapons because Cutler was better than Plummer at finding "WRs-not-named-Javon".

Plummer gave Shanahan no choice but to make the change. His performance was abysmal and ineffective. It really looked to me like he mailed in the '06 season the moment Cutler was drafted... like he was only marking time until he was out of town.

[watermock]

I thought he would of at least of showed up against SF when Jay went down. It wan't like he was some rookie QB. Can you have a negative raiting?

[Atlas]

Plummer gave Shanahan no choice but to make the change. His performance was abysmal and ineffective. It really looked to me like he mailed in the '06 season the moment Cutler was drafted... like he was only marking time until he was out of town.

Your right. I have never been a big Plummer supporter per se, but I was behind Plummer all year. I figuered he would turn it around and he never did. Shanny had no choice but to make the switch. After the losses at KC and SD Shanny knew there was no way Plummer could lead this team to the playoffs.

[chrisp]

I was a die-hard Plummer defender right up untill a game or so before he got benched - i honestly think that Shanny never wanted to start Cutler this year but Plummer's play just forced him to.

The whole offense took a step forward once Jay took over and the pass game in particular.

As for Rod, I think its reasonable he takes a pay cut, and I will actually be worried if Marshall can't beat him out for the #2 slot, although having said that i still think Rod will be just about the best #3 a team could ever have.

I think that in the modern NFL players know that the only guaranteed money is the money that's already in your bank account - all of the rest is negotiable. Both sides will know that if Rod doesn't restructure the Broncos will have to consider cutting him, becuase its lunacy to tie up 6-7 mil of cap space on your #3 or #4 reciever.

I love the idea of Rod bowing out gracefully, just turning up to make the odd play here and there but not having to worry about getting 1000 yards ar anything like that. I think its the perfect way to go. Personally I hate it when atheletes retire at the peak of their power, I always want a guy to keep going untill he's definitely got nothing left in the tank, and more power to him if he can.

I don't think that financially he will be too badly off, with all those years of getting paid so much, so don't think he'll be queuing up outside the soup kitchen any time soon.....

[elsid13]

Then why did everybody, including yourself and herc, state that we had around 7-8 mil?


Well John Clayton of ESPN has Denver with only 2.6M in cap room. So I appears no one knows what going on expect Dover Valley.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=2758756

[watermock]

We also have an army of inflatable tanks in Britan.

[Hogan11]

And that says it all IMO. If we were picking up as a FA and his cap hit was 2.5 mil people would be screaming.

Fans are loyal to a player I understand that, but players come and go.

Bingo.

People also tend to forget that this team also let Atwater go in his golden years to put in a year for someone else before retiring. As far as I'm concerned, the precedent has already been set.

[Rascal]

OK, since you apparently want to continue with your assertion that Rod's and Javon's stats (per catch) being better with Plummer than with Cutler means something (anything...), tell me... how do Scheffler's, Alexander's, and Marshall's stats compare by QB? As stated earlier in the thread, these guys suddenly emerged as offensive weapons because Cutler was better than Plummer at finding "WRs-not-named-Javon".

Plummer gave Shanahan no choice but to make the change. His performance was abysmal and ineffective. It really looked to me like he mailed in the '06 season the moment Cutler was drafted... like he was only marking time until he was out of town.

OMG are you serious?

I am not talking about Cutler vs Plummer, and who was better.

I'm talking about how Rod and Javon's production did not increase because of the QB change. So your comment, and others, about Rod or Javon stats hurting because Jake was the QB is a bunch of BS. And I'm using their decline in stats as proof of that, not proof about who was a better QB. And blaming Jake's salary for our hypothetical situation of not being able to get a FA is also bogus, because if Shanny wants to get a certain FA he can make the cuts necessary to get them (as Hogan pointed out by letting fan favorite players go because of their contract situation).

[Rascal]

Bingo.

People also tend to forget that this team also let Atwater go in his golden years to put in a year for someone else before retiring. As far as I'm concerned, the precedent has already been set.

thank God somebody gets it.

[elsid13]

Shanahan learned to way to run franchise under the golden years of SF. And he won't keep anyone on the team that doesn't think will help him win. I'm sure that Smith will resign for lesser number, but if he ain't a top 5 WR on the team he will be gone.

[Blueflame]

OMG are you serious?

I am not talking about Cutler vs Plummer, and who was better.

I'm talking about how Rod and Javon's production did not increase because of the QB change. So your comment, and others, about Rod or Javon stats hurting because Jake was the QB is a bunch of BS. And I'm using their decline in stats as proof of that, not proof about who was a better QB. And blaming Jake's salary for our hypothetical situation of not being able to get a FA is also bogus, because if Shanny wants to get a certain FA he can make the cuts necessary to get them (as Hogan pointed out by letting fan favorite players go because of their contract situation).

Since posting the name "Plummer" seems to put some knickers in a knot around here, I'll say it generically...

When a QB has a high passer rating (think Paidaton here) his numbers are good and so, usually are the numbers of his WRs. Conversely, when a QB is struggling (think Aaron Brooks), the stats of his WRs are low right along with his numbers. This is what happened to Rod Smith's '06 stats. It ain't exactly rocket science; it's simple cause-and-effect.

Secondly, Rod Smith will not enter the season counting $5.5 mil against the Broncos' cap. He's always been a team player and there's no reason to think he'll change now. He'll give the team some cap relief, but his numbers are still a drop in the bucket compared to what we've wasted on dead cap money owed to QBs who still counted against the cap after going to another team.

Rod is still a valuable player on the team and will make plays as either #2 or #3 depending on Marshall's learning curve.

[Blueflame]

To illustrate...
Oakland '06:
| Aaron Brooks | 8 | 110 192 57.3 1105 5.8 3 8 | 22 124 0 |
| Marques Tuiasosopo | 2 | 6 13 46.2 68 5.2 1 2 | 4 29 0 |
| Andrew Walter | 12 | 147 276 53.3 1677 6.1 3 13 | 14 30 0 |

| William Buchanon | 1 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 1 9 9.0 0 |
| Ronald Curry | 16 | 1 4 4.0 0 | 62 727 11.7 1 |
| Doug Gabriel | 3 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 5 84 16.8 0 |
| Johnnie Morant | 11 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 7 70 10.0 0 |
| Randy Moss | 13 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 42 553 13.2 3 |
| Jerry Porter | 4 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 1 19 19.0 0 |
| Alvis Whitted | 14 | 1 4 4.0 0 | 27 299 11.1 0 |


Indy '06
| Peyton Manning | 16 | 362 557 65.0 4397 7.9 31 9 | 23 36 4 |
| Jim Sorgi | 2 | 0 0 0.0 0 0.0 0 0 | 0 0 0 |

| Marvin Harrison | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 95 1366 14.4 12 |
| Aaron Moorehead | 12 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 8 82 10.2 1 |
| Ricky Proehl | 2 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 3 30 10.0 0 |
| Brandon Stokley | 4 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 8 85 10.6 1 |
| Reggie Wayne | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 86 1310 15.2 9 |
| Terrence Wilkins | 15 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 0 0 0.0 0 |


Now, should Fadefan be whining about cap space allotted to Moss and Porter this year (probably, but that's another thread... LOL) or should they (correctly) say their WRs are fine if they only had a QB? ???

[Rascal]

Since posting the name "Plummer" seems to put some knickers in a knot around here, I'll say it generically...

When a QB has a high passer rating (think Paidaton here) his numbers are good and so, usually are the numbers of his WRs. Conversely, when a QB is struggling (think Aaron Brooks), the stats of his WRs are low right along with his numbers. This is what happened to Rod Smith's '06 stats. It ain't exactly rocket science; it's simple cause-and-effect.

Secondly, Rod Smith will not enter the season counting $5.5 mil against the Broncos' cap. He's always been a team player and there's no reason to think he'll change now. He'll give the team some cap relief, but his numbers are still a drop in the bucket compared to what we've wasted on dead cap money owed to QBs who still counted against the cap after going to another team.

Rod is still a valuable player on the team and will make plays as either #2 or #3 depending on Marshall's learning curve.

Yet you conveniently forget the fact that the #1 and #2 WR had less RPG with Cutler then Jake. IT HAS ****ING NOTHING TO DO WITH THE QB!!!

I'll post it again.

I'm talking about how Rod and Javon's production did not increase because of the QB change. So your comment, and others, about Rod or Javon stats hurting because Jake was the QB is a bunch of BS. And I'm using their decline UNDER CUTLER in stats as proof of that, not proof about who was a better QB.

Forget it, I've made my arguement abundently clear but your being obstonent.

[Blueflame]

The point is, Plummer's struggles did affect his WRs' stats. I know it hurts, but it's true. Pointing to stats for 5 games with a rookie who's just learning the system and is more comfortable with the second stringers as "proof" that the QB's struggles weren't a factor is a good illustration of cherry-picking stats in an attempt to "prove" a preconceived conclusion.

[broncolife]

Rod looked pretty good in the pro bowl skills competition. He probably would of had one of top two scores if he didnt overrun the marker and have to go back and still got a 5 sec penalty. His time was around 30 sec and that mistake cost him around 7 seconds. Is he in the pro bowl? I thought only Champ,Al, and Lynch made it.

[eddie mac]

Rod looked pretty good in the pro bowl skills competition. He probably would of had one of top two scores if he didnt overrun the marker and have to go back and still got a 5 sec penalty. His time was around 30 sec and that mistake cost him around 7 seconds. Is he in the pro bowl? I thought only Champ,Al, and Lynch made it.

Nope. he wouldn't have got in an AFC West Pro-Bowl this year.

[Blueflame]

Nope. he wouldn't have got in an AFC West Pro-Bowl this year.

Neither would Randy Moss... :P

[~Crash~]

Why blame the NFLPA?

Why not blame the organization that tries to back out of the contract they negotiated with Smith? Considering the jump in salary cap this season, it's a wonder they dont just pay the guy his money.

Who said they will not ???? also our team has always redid contracts for production good or bad they try to be fair !

[~Crash~]

thank God somebody gets it.

Hog Wash there is a way big difference SA needed one big pay day . Rod has had plenty of cash !!!

[Blueflame]

Rod looked pretty good in the pro bowl skills competition. He probably would of had one of top two scores if he didnt overrun the marker and have to go back and still got a 5 sec penalty. His time was around 30 sec and that mistake cost him around 7 seconds. Is he in the pro bowl? I thought only Champ,Al, and Lynch made it.

Perhaps (if this is a current Pro Bowl article) they were referring to Steve Smith... he's in the Pro Bowl for the NFC. ???

[broncolife]

Rod looked pretty good in the pro bowl skills competition. He probably would of had one of top two scores if he didnt overrun the marker and have to go back and still got a 5 sec penalty. His time was around 30 sec and that mistake cost him around 7 seconds. Is he in the pro bowl? I thought only Champ,Al, and Lynch made it.

I think I was watching last years skill challenge :)

[Hogan11]

Hog Wash there is a way big difference SA needed one big pay day . Rod has had plenty of cash !!!

So, based on this, I guess the team really doesn't take care of the "lifers" as much as some think then. I mean, if they couldn't do right by Steve Atwater...

[TomServo]

i think a case can be made for the nflpa screwing the vets. all they ever wanted was free agency. when meck was a player rep. i bet he never dreamed he'd get kicked to the curb for a younger cheaper player.
ive heard of some very cool ways for teams to keep and pay vets their due, like a formula having ten or twelve year vets only count like @50% against the cap. but the nflpa only seems to care about the star players.

[MileHighMania]

Yeah, the switch from Jake to Jay had nothing to do with his numbers... Rod is getting older, but I do believe he'll have better #'s in 2007 than 2006. Yes, he's in the twilight of a great career, but the guy can still play.