League just announced Zimmerman eliminated from HOF induction.

[rovolution]

Dang. Probably cause of Bruce Matthews

[spdirty]

Monk, Tags, and Zim didnt make it. Irvin did. **** the HOF!!!!!!!!!!

At least Derrick Thomas didnt make it again.

[rovolution]

The Crackhead made it. UGGGHHHHH

[spdirty]

Gene Hickerson
Cokehead
Bruce Matthews
Charlie Sanders
Thurman Thomas
Roger Wehrli

[Atlas]

He played for the Broncos right?? No suprise he didn't make it to the HOF.

[DTBLAS]

The fact is, to make it into the HOF as a Bronco you have to beat down the doors with overwhelming force. Like Elway did, and Sharpe will do.

[Taco John]

Gene Hickerson
Michael Irvin
Bruce Matthews
Thurman Thomas
Charlie Sanders
Roger Worley

[ZachKC]

Monk, Tags, and Zim didnt make it. Irvin did. **** the HOF!!!!!!!!!!

At least Derrick Thomas didnt make it again.

He will have his place.

[SouthStndJunkie]

Roger Wehrli is the correct spelling.

[broncs2bowl]

NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!! Zimmerman got f***in jipped!

[Dudeskey]

The Crackhead made it. UGGGHHHHH

Who's line is it anyway, Michael;)

[footstepsfrom#27]

Dominant player for over a decade...7 pro bowls...2 all decade teams...anchored one of the best rushing attacks in the NFL...Super Bowl ring to boot...to bad he didn't get caught on tape trying to buy coke or he'd have had a better shot.

The HOF's a sad joke.

[elsid13]

Who is the Denver voting rep??? Because he ain't getting done.

[bronco610]

HOF is nothing but B.S. !!!!!!!!!

[MechanicalBull]

Numbers wise Rod's stats are very similar to Irvins with Irvin being in one more superbowl and two more pro bowls than Rod.

Dan Patrick the other day was talking about Thurman Thomas and Andre Reed and he said he thought Reed would probably get into the hall of fame if they had won at least one of the four superbowls.

[SouthStndJunkie]

If Michael Irvin made it and Rod Smith does not, I will be super pissed.

Rod has better numbers and has won multiple Super Bowls as has Irvin. But one played for the Cowboys............

[TexanBob]

But one played for the Cowboys............

...and is still highly visible on television. It sure seems if you are borderline and you want to get into the Hall, you need to keep a public profile. Props to Terrell Davis and Shannon Sharpe for thinking ahead on that.

Irvin shouldn't get in before Reed and Monk. And I don't think Reed or Monk deserve it either.

[Meck77]

Dang I was hoping Zim got in so we all had a reason to go to Canton again. Zim robbed again.

[i4jelway7]

WTF... what a travesty... Zimm should be automatic... for gods sake how in the hell can you keep Art "freaking" Monk out of the HOF... how ridiculous is that.. let Irvin in and keep Art Monk out?????.. The HOF is total BS..

[The Moops]

Zim the only linemen (offense or defense) ever to be voted to 2 All-Decade teams. Nah, he's not good enough!

Call it the Broncos curse.

It's good to to see the seniors guys get in (Sanders & Hickerson) although I don't consider Sanders a HOFer. His numbers don't even compare to Riley Odoms, who can't even get into the Broncos Ring of Fame.

I'm one of the few old enough to have remembered Roger Wehrli. He was pretty average. Louis Wright was much better. And how about a guy like Ken Riley? He notched 65 interceptions to Wehrli's 42 and no one ever mentions him. Both played same era, late 60s to early 80s.

Hall of Shame . . .

[BroncosBeerMan]

Dang I was hoping Zim got in so we all had a reason to go to Canton again. Zim robbed again.

Read my mind Meck - I was already scouting plane tickets. Guess we'll have to wait until next year.

Hopefully it's a double dipper with TD and Zim, though if the HOF has snubbed them once, I don't see why multiple Broncos would get it.

Dream for Class of 2008: Zim, TD, Steve & Randy - make it an all Broncos weekend

[epicSocialism4tw]

Denver fans should just move on and forget about the HOF. There will never be a day when Broncos fans can say that their franchise gets a fair shake as far as that's concerned.

[The Moops]

Of the 17 finalist, looks like Zimmerman didn't even make the first cut.

From Mike Klis of Denver Post: The 40-member panel deliberated Saturday to determine who among the 17 finalists would be enshrined. Two votes were taken, reducing the finalists from 17 to 11 and then from 10 to six finalists, who were each voted on individually.

Finalists Paul Tagliabue, Russ Grimm, Ray Guy, Bob Kuechenberg, Andre Reed and Zimmerman lost out in the first reduction vote. Fred Dean, Richard Dent, Art Monk, Derrick Thomas and Andre Tippett lost out on the second reduction ballot.

ANOTHER SHOCKER

[ludo21]

IRVING AGAIN!??!?!

He is NOT Canton material, this is BS! just caz his ugly face is in the media daily gets him enough press to get in.

Zim snubbed, big surprise there. This sucks

[CBF1]

The HOF is the official Hall of SHAME!! I used to think it was a place for the "best of the best", It has turned into a popularity contest for average players.

Put Randy Gradishar's numbers against ANY LB in the history of the NFL and he should of been in on his first try. As far as I am concerned.... F the HOS

[Killericon]

What a crock of ****.

[KipCorrington25]

Wow, if Irvin gets in that would be a real shame. But would draw more attention to what a joke it all is.

[cutthemdown]

Zimmerman=lives in mountains is rarely seen, is not an attention whore.
Irvin=even when he's smoking crack he's on TV whining about making HOF

The media is a joke we all know that. Anything the media votes on is also a joke. The sports media is all about personal vendettas and back scratching. Irvin is on TV in a position where he can influence peddle and backstab. Zimmerman is living his life away from football where he can hunt, fish, and be a mountain man. That's all this vote is about not who was really the better pro football player.

[The Moops]

I think there's a better Bronco for almost all the HOFers selected today.

Charlie Sanders -- Riley Odoms
Gene Hickerson -- tough to name a great bronco guard from that era (1960s to early 1970s). Larron Jackson was pretty tough but never made the Pro Bowl. Mike Current was good, but was a tackle.
Thurman Thomas -- TD and Floyd Little
Roger Wehrli -- Louis Wright
Bruce Matthews -- Zimmerman
Michael Irvin -- McCaffrey, Rod Smith, Steve Watson

[Inkana7]

Bull ****. That's all it is.

[bpc]

The fact is, to make it into the HOF as a Bronco you have to beat down the doors with overwhelming force. Like Elway did, and Sharpe will do.

I bet Sharpe doesn't even make it on the first try.

People will say... "well... he wasn't really a complete TE..."

However nobody ever seems to say that with Tony G, Antonio Gates or others... last time I checked though, Sharpe was the only one who blocked for a 2000 yd rusher.

I'm not surprised by this. The NFL and the stupid media voters pick big city's. Next season Tagliabue, DT, Tippett, Reed and some other old lineman will make it in.

This is a crock.

Anybody have Gradishar's career stats?

[Pezman]

As much as I want to homer up on Zim not getting in, I seriously gotta question why the hell another legend in Richard Dent hasnt made it in yet either.

F the HOF. Its clearly become a popularity contest which is perfect for suck-ups like Dr. Z to have unneccessary power over the vote.

[The Moops]

How someone like Werhli, who wasn't as good as Louie Wright, Lester Hayes, Ken Riley, Dave Brown, Everson Walls, Emmitt Thomas, Pat Fischer, ad nauseaum, made it over other more worthy candidates like Richard Dent, Zimm, Russ Grimm, Art Monk, is unbelieable.

Since the seniors vote is cast (in August) before the modern players, the first order of business should be to get #44 in there next year. Probably his last shot . . .

[TexanBob]

I must say I'm shocked Tagliabue didn't get in, particularly with no other coach or exec inducted. Maybe he would find the irony of taking the stage with Cokehead too embarassing.

[enjolras]

The HOF is just a joke. 6 superbowls and how many HOF'ers?

This is insane... Terrel Davis wasn't even a finalist? (I guess a league MVP, superbowl MVP, and a 2000 yard season is quite common).

Zimmerman can't make it in?

What a joke.. It shouldn't piss me off this bad, but god it does.

[footstepsfrom#27]

It's just cause Michael has a special way with people...;D

http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/paramount_pictures/the_longest_yard/_group_photos/michael_irvin33.jpg

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

I think there's a better Bronco for almost all the HOFers selected today.

Charlie Sanders -- Riley Odoms
Gene Hickerson -- tough to name a great bronco guard from that era (1960s to early 1970s). Larron Jackson was pretty tough but never made the Pro Bowl. Mike Current was good, but was a tackle.
Thurman Thomas -- TD and Floyd Little
Roger Wehrli -- Louis Wright
Bruce Matthews -- Zimmerman
Michael Irvin -- McCaffrey, Rod Smith, Steve Watson

Hickerson and Sanders both deserved it. Mathews deserves it, but so does Zimm.

[jonny1]

I can't argue with Bruce Matthews going in, he is deserving, but NO WAY either Thurman Thomas or Sinus Irvin should be in there ahead of Zimmerman.

Gregg Easterbrook (the Tuesday Morning QB writer on ESPN) continually harps on the lack of linemen (offensive and defensive) in the HOF. His proposal is to up the number of inductees per year to 10, so that ALL the deserving linemen could get in faster.

I agree, the HOF is becoming a joke.

[Maximus]

If there is one player getting screwed out of a hall induction... it is Art Monk!

[-Slap-]

Ah yes, the NFL's annual tribute to cronyism.

ROFL!

[Rocket 7]

If there is one player getting screwed out of a hall induction... it is Art Monk!

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=27178

[MechanicalBull]

As much as I want to homer up on Zim not getting in, I seriously gotta question why the hell another legend in Richard Dent hasnt made it in yet either.

F the HOF. Its clearly become a popularity contest which is perfect for suck-ups like Dr. Z to have unneccessary power over the vote.

Speaking of guys not getting in. How the heck does Al Bundy not get in? Come on, the guy scored 4 touchdowns in one game. I know it was in high school but still.

http://home.nycap.rr.com/aoj/abfl/abfl/altouchdownbundy.jpg

[ro_50]

The HoF is like I've been saying - A JOKE.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

If there is one player getting screwed out of a hall induction... it is Art Monk!

No, it's Zim. Every other player in league history who was on 2 All-Decade teams got in on their first or second ballot. Zim just missed on his 5th ballot. The only other 2-time All-Decade player not in the Hall is Rice, and just a hunch that he gets in on his first ballot.

[Bronco LB 59]

The legitimacy of the voting process is what I have a problem with. If Canton is going to continue the closed door roundtable meeting of 40 sportswriters, it would be nice to have a written account or a recording of what is discussed in that room.

[B-Love]

The forced agenda of Roger Wehrli concerns me greatly. Like the Moops pointed out, there were several players at his position who were better, who were not even on the Preliminary List of 120 players.

But people need to stop with this Michael Irvin stuff. I don't like Michael Irvin, as a person, either.

But Michael Irvin was great, plain and simple. Michael irvin could truly DOMINATE football games; Art Monk dominated one or two football games ever.

If you want to hate Irvin that is fine, but that guy was a truly great player.

[B-Love]

On Sirius Radio today there was a radio personality who came on and said he heard there was a serious push for Roger Wehrli, since this was his last year before he goes to the Seniors Committee.

Next year is Randy's last year of eligibility.

I wonder of they'll be a special push for him. LMFAO!!!

The mid 60's to late 70's Cardinals were basically a joke with the exception of a collapse in 1970 and a three year run from 74-76, with Don Coryell.

But they now have 4 members of those teams in the Hall of Fame. Larry Wilson, Dan Dierdorf and Jackie Smith were deserving, but they were also ENOUGH. Roger Wehrli doesn't deserve this.

[SouthStndJunkie]

You can bet your butt that Zim would already be in the Hall had he played his entire career for teams like Dallas or the Giants.

[Rocket 7]

If you want to hate Irvin that is fine, but that guy was a truly great player.

Not sure if you buy the "If Elway was in Montana's offense" he would win four SB also. But if John Taylor or some other second tier player was Dallas' go to guy during the glory years he would be just as productive. Not a boisterous player. I just think alot of players could of played that role.

[-Slap-]

Michael Irvin's certainly in the push-off Hall of Fame. His entire career looked like Drew Pearson against Bobby Bryant. He also had three Hall of Famers on offense helping him look good, plus two or three more perennial Pro Bowlers for good measure.

[Tombstone RJ]

Is anyone really suprised by this? This is just par for the course for the Broncos franchise...

[footstepsfrom#27]

Broncos who should be in the HOF with Elway

1) Lionel Taylor
2) Goose Gonsoulin
3) Floyd Little
4) Randy Gradishar
5) Louise Wright
6) Karl Mecklenburg
7) Dennis Smith
8) Steve Atwater
9) Gary Zimmerman
10) Terrell Davis
11) Shanon Sharpe
12) Rod Smith

The best we can hope for is Sharpe and Rod make it in...pathetic.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

The best we can hope for is Sharpe and Rod make it in...pathetic.

Love Rod, but he's not a HOF player. The guy is the Monk category, very good player for a long time, but not a great player. 3 Pro Bowls (1 starting) and 2 2nd Team All-Pros should not be enough to get into the HOF.

[Rocket 7]

Love Rod, but he's not a HOF player. The guy is the Monk category, very good player for a long time, but not a great player. 3 Pro Bowls (1 starting) and 2 2nd Team All-Pros should not be enough to get into the HOF.

He's no Lynn Swann

[TomServo]

He's no Lynn Swann
thats right. rod is better.
according to pro football reference.com
Lynn Swann is not in the all-time top 50 in any major category.
Rod Smith is Among the league's all-time top 50
Receptions: 11
Receiving yards: 17
Receiving TDs: 30t
Yards from scrimmage: 42
Swann
+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Rushing | Receiving |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 1974 pit | 11 | 1 14 14.0 0 | 11 208 18.9 2 |
| 1975 pit | 14 | 3 13 4.3 0 | 49 781 15.9 11 |
| 1976 pit | 12 | 1 2 2.0 0 | 28 516 18.4 3 |
| 1977 pit | 14 | 2 6 3.0 0 | 50 789 15.8 7 |
| 1978 pit | 16 | 1 7 7.0 0 | 61 880 14.4 11 |
| 1979 pit | 13 | 1 9 9.0 1 | 41 808 19.7 5 |
| 1980 pit | 13 | 1 -4 -4.0 0 | 44 710 16.1 7 |
| 1981 pit | 13 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 34 505 14.9 5 |
| 1982 pit | 9 | 1 25 25.0 0 | 18 265 14.7 0 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| TOTAL | 115 | 11 72 6.5 1 | 336 5462 16.3 51 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

Smith
+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Rushing | Receiving |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 1995 den | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 6 152 25.3 1 |
| 1996 den | 10 | 1 1 1.0 0 | 16 237 14.8 2 |
| 1997 den | 16 | 5 16 3.2 0 | 70 1180 16.9 12 |
| 1998 den | 16 | 6 63 10.5 0 | 86 1222 14.2 6 |
| 1999 den | 15 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 79 1020 12.9 4 |
| 2000 den | 16 | 6 99 16.5 1 | 100 1602 16.0 8 |
| 2001 den | 15 | 3 27 9.0 0 | 113 1343 11.9 11 |
| 2002 den | 16 | 6 9 1.5 0 | 89 1027 11.5 5 |
| 2003 den | 15 | 10 98 9.8 0 | 74 845 11.4 3 |
| 2004 den | 16 | 5 33 6.6 0 | 79 1144 14.5 7 |
| 2005 den | 16 | 1 7 7.0 0 | 85 1105 13.0 6 |
| 2006 den | 16 | 1 -5 -5.0 0 | 52 512 9.8 3 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| TOTAL | 183 | 44 348 7.9 1 | 849 11389 13.4 68 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

[footstepsfrom#27]

Love Rod, but he's not a HOF player. The guy is the Monk category, very good player for a long time, but not a great player. 3 Pro Bowls (1 starting) and 2 2nd Team All-Pros should not be enough to get into the HOF.
You can't measure everything by pro bowls. Pro bowls should not even be a consideration since they're all about popularity and just as big a joke as the HOF IMO. His numbers are just as impressive as Irvin's and he's the best blocking WR of his era...plus 2 rings...the heart of leadership on those Superbowl teams as well...he IS a HOF player...whether he gets in or not is another question.

[TomServo]

but Clown michael irvin is just another reason i say F*CK the h.o.f.
it was nice getting #7 in but damn what a joke that place is. no freaking way if im in that part of the country that place is getting a dime of my money.

[SouthStndJunkie]

You can't measure everything by pro bowls. Pro bowls should not even be a consideration since they're all about popularity and just as big a joke as the HOF IMO. His numbers are just as impressive as Irvin's and he's the best blocking WR of his era...plus 2 rings...the heart of leadership on those Superbowl teams as well...he IS a HOF player...whether he gets in or not is another question.

Damn straight.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

You can't measure everything by pro bowls. Pro bowls should not even be a consideration since they're all about popularity and just as big a joke as the HOF IMO. His numbers are just as impressive as Irvin's and he's the best blocking WR of his era...plus 2 rings...the heart of leadership on those Superbowl teams as well...he IS a HOF player...whether he gets in or not is another question.

Than what do you measure it by? Numbers in an inflated passing era?

The guy hasn't been a 1st Team All-Pro a single time in his career. That means that a good chunk of the guys voting for the Hall don't even think that Rod was one of the two best WRs in the league for any season. You cannot say that someone is deserving of the HOF if you are unwilling to compare him to the peers of his generation. Rod's got very good numbers, he doesn't have great numbers. If you want to make it the Hall of Very Good, then Rod should get in.

and Rod was not one of the leaders on the SB teams, you're completely making that up and you know it.

[B-Love]

Rod Smith is not a Hall of Famer. One of my favorite Broncos of all time, but he is not a Hall of Famer.

[TomServo]

Rod Smith is not a Hall of Famer. One of my favorite Broncos of all time, but he is not a Hall of Famer.

and michael irvin is? thats all we are trying to point out.

[B-Love]

Neither is Goose Gonsoulin, Karl Mecklenburg or Lionel Taylor.

I think the rest of the guys on Footsteps list above are worthy.

[TomServo]

+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Rushing | Receiving |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 1988 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1988.htm) dal (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1988.htm) | 14 | 1 2 2.0 0 | 32 654 20.4 5 |
| 1989 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1989.htm) dal (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1989.htm) | 6 | 1 6 6.0 0 | 26 378 14.5 2 |
| 1990 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1990.htm) dal (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1990.htm) | 12 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 20 413 20.6 5 |
| 1991 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1991.htm) dal (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1991.htm) | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 93 1523 16.4 8 |
| 1992 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1992.htm) dal (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1992.htm) | 16 | 1 -9 -9.0 0 | 78 1396 17.9 7 |
| 1993 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1993.htm) dal (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1993.htm) | 16 | 2 6 3.0 0 | 88 1330 15.1 7 |
| 1994 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1994.htm) dal (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1994.htm) | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 79 1241 15.7 6 |
| 1995 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1995.htm) dal (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1995.htm) | 16 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/games/IrviMi00.htm#1995) | 0 0 0.0 0 | 111 1603 14.4 10 |
| 1996 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1996.htm) dal (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1996.htm) | 11 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/games/IrviMi00.htm#1996) | 0 0 0.0 0 | 64 962 15.0 2 |
| 1997 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1997.htm) dal (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1997.htm) | 16 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/games/IrviMi00.htm#1997) | 0 0 0.0 0 | 75 1180 15.7 9 |
| 1998 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1998.htm) dal (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1998.htm) | 16 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/games/IrviMi00.htm#1998) | 1 1 1.0 0 | 74 1057 14.3 1 |
| 1999 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1999.htm) dal (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1999.htm) | 4 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/games/IrviMi00.htm#1999) | 0 0 0.0 0 | 10 167 16.7 3 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| TOTAL | 159 | 6 6 1.0 0 | 750 11904 15.9 65 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
Irvins stats. compare them to rods. all rod needs is another ring.

[TomServo]

from the Denver Post
Zimmerman must wait for Hall call
<!--subtitle--><!--byline-->By Mike Klis
Denver Post Staff Writer
<!--date-->Article Last Updated: 02/03/2007 06:18:26 PM MST



<SCRIPT language=JavaScript> var requestedWidth = 0; </SCRIPT><SCRIPT language=JavaScript> if(requestedWidth < 200){ requestedWidth = 200; } </SCRIPT>http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2007/0201/20070201__20070202_D7_SP02HALL~1_200.JPG (http://www.denverpost.com/portlet/article/html/imageDisplay.jsp?contentItemRelationshipId=1427886 ) Gary Zimmerman would love to become the second Bronco in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, joining John Elway. (Post / Andy Cross)



<SCRIPT language=JavaScript> if(requestedWidth > 0){ document.getElementById('articleViewerGroup').styl e.width = requestedWidth + "px"; document.getElementById('articleViewerGroup').styl e.margin = "0px 0px 10px 10px"; } </SCRIPT>
Miami - All those Super Bowls. Six for those counting at their Denver homes, more than any team but the Dallas Cowboys.
All those wins. No NFL team has a better regular-season record since 1974 than the Denver Broncos (311-199-2).
All those great players, with multiple Pro Bowl appearances. Yet, just one Hall of Famer. When it comes to his place in Canton, Ohio, quarterback John Elway is a lonely Bronco.


Damn why do we bronco fans get worked up over this? screw the h.o.f.

[B-Love]

and michael irvin is? thats all we are trying to point out.

Michael Irvin was a great player, I really can't understand why anyone sees it otherwise. Michael Irvin dominated football games, and was a dominant receiver.

I understand he is hated by many, but he was great. I don't like the guy but I'd never be silly enough to try to deny his dominance.

He did push off on some sideline Go Routes, so what, he joins hundreds who have. Part of the reason his push offs were so noticeable, was because he was one of VERY FEW, who could physically dominate the Corners he played against.

Michael Irvin ran In Cuts, Outs, Skinny's, Posts, Flags, Post Flags, Go's, etc, he ran every route and was dominant on every quadrant of the football field.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Than what do you measure it by? Numbers in an inflated passing era?
He's caught more balls than Irvin, about the same number of TD's and is not far behind in yardage despite having Griese and Jake throwing to him instead of Elway...while Irvin had Aikman his whole career.
The guy hasn't been a 1st Team All-Pro a single time in his career. That means that a good chunk of the guys voting for the Hall don't even think that Rod was one of the two best WRs in the league for any season.
The same guys who snub all our players right? Like I care what their opinion is.
You cannot say that someone is deserving of the HOF if you are unwilling to compare him to the peers of his generation. Rod's got very good numbers, he doesn't have great numbers. If you want to make it the Hall of Very Good, then Rod should get in.
As I said...his numbers are comparable to Irvin's...and he was a much better blocker. In fact the WR's being key to success in the stretch zone I can make a case that if it weren't for Rod and Eddie Mac, our running game would not have been top ranked in the league during the Shanahan era.
and Rod was not one of the leaders on the SB teams, you're completely making that up and you know it.
Of course he is...Rod leads by EXAMPLE...he never misses a practice or even a workout...he's the epitome of leadership on this team...maybe not the vocal leader, but I'll take his kind of leadership over the cokehead's any day of the week.

He's definitely a HOF caliber player.

[TomServo]

wow! thanks for acknowledging irvins many offensive p.i. non calls. if he played for the broncos would he have ever gotten away with that crap?
as i said. all rod lacks is one ring to be shown irvins superior.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

He's caught more balls than Irvin, about the same number of TD's and is not far behind in yardage despite having Griese and Jake throwing to him instead of Elway...while Irvin had Aikman his whole career.

Smith's also played in 24 more games, I'd hope he had more catches when he's played a season and a half more to this point.

The same guys who snub all our players right? Like I care what their opinion is.

The "media hates us" schtick gets old. It's the same thing the Skins and Chiefs fans are saying today. It's a total excuse. Rod has never been recognized as being one of the best 2 WRs in the league in any given season by guys who almost certainly Hall voters too. Spin it anyway you want, that's reality.

As I said...his numbers are comparable to Irvin's...and he was a much better blocker. In fact the WR's being key to success in the stretch zone I can make a case that if it weren't for Rod and Eddie Mac, our running game would not have been top ranked in the league during the Shanahan era.

You could, and it's a nice intangible, but we still go back to the fact that everyone knows that. This isn't something that only Broncos fans know about, it's been pointed out quite often during the games in Rod's career. Still hasn't helped him get that elusive 1st Team All-Pro.

Of course he is...Rod leads by EXAMPLE...he never misses a practice or even a workout...he's the epitome of leadership on this team...maybe not the vocal leader, but I'll take his kind of leadership over the cokehead's any day of the week.

Sorry, but you're looking at the present and claiming that it was the same in the past. He was not a leader on that offense. Both were veteran teams, and Rod was low man on the totem pole still trying to establish himself as a NFL player. He started, but how many people went into the first SB season asking who Rod Smith was? He only became a leader when the leaders from the Super Bowl teams left or retired.

He's definitely a HOF caliber player.

No he's close, but he's still not.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Neither is Goose Gonsoulin, Karl Mecklenburg or Lionel Taylor.

I think the rest of the guys on Footsteps list above are worthy.
You never saw Lionel Taylor or Gonsoulin play. Taylor was the AFL's Jerry Rice and he didn't have a Joe Montana throwing him the ball. Taylor led the AFL in receptions for 6 straight seasons, finished with 543 career catches and was 3 times team MVP and 3 times AFL All Star...plus he was the first NFL player to catch 100 passes in one season.

Gonsoulin was the all time leader in INT's for the AFL with 43...shares the team record for INT's in a season with Champ (11) which he did it in only 14 games...6 times an AFL all star...why is he not a HOF player?

Mecklenburg...6 pro bowls...80 sacks...played 7 positions and was the leader of the defense that went to 4 Superbowls and 5 AFC title games...he's certainly worthy of consideration.

[TomServo]

The "media hates us" schtick gets old. It's the same thing the Skins and Chiefs fans are saying today. It's a total excuse. Rod has never been recognized as being one of the best 2 WRs in the league in any given season by guys who almost certainly Hall voters too. Spin it anyway you want, that's reality.


check my Denver Post uh post. Broncos are screwed when it comes to Honors.
so explain why Zim didnt get in?

[TomServo]

All those Super Bowls. Six for those counting at their Denver homes, more than any team but the Dallas Cowboys.
All those wins. No NFL team has a better regular-season record since 1974 than the Denver Broncos (311-199-2).
All those great players, with multiple Pro Bowl appearances. Yet, just one Hall of Famer. When it comes to his place in Canton, Ohio, quarterback John Elway is a lonely Bronco.
yeah were getting a fair deal?

[B-Love]

All those Super Bowls. Six for those counting at their Denver homes, more than any team but the Dallas Cowboys.
.
yeah were getting a fair deal?

No, we know we're not getting a fair deal Tom, so you can stop your drama king nonsense.

One minute you're hyping Rod Smith, who wouldn't be eligible until 2013 at this point anyway.

Next you're wallowing in the general mire of us "not getting a fair deal".

Well which one is it?? Are you gonna help us get our fair deal by hyping a player who isn't sligible until 2012 or 2013 anyway??

What have you ever done Tom?? Have you ever called a sports radio show to bitch? Have you ever mailed letters to complain?? Have you ever tried to help a candidates cause??

Maybe, and hopefully, you have.

[bpc]

My feelings?

IN:

TD - I think he'll have to wait a few years but i have a believe that he'll get in. Being on the NFL network will help him.
Zimm - He is going to wait to because of where he played. Two all-decade teams... and this mess? What a joke.
Sharpe - Great TE of all time. I bet they make him wait one season. They'll hold out for Tony G to break his receiving records so they can do it like this. I would put money he doesn't make it on his first try which is just a stupid certainty.

Outside looking in:

Atwater - He went to something like 9 pro bowls... he'll make it eventually.
Rod Smith - He is just good in every area but he has only been truly great in two seasons. He will need another couple 1000 yd seasons if he wants to make it.
Tom Nalen - The anchor of our offensive line of this amazing run. I think the media will do the best job to spin it to look like he was a puppet or say that our line blocks were illegal. He needs another couple seasons of high play, pro bowl caliber to make it in.

Waiting in the wings:

John Lynch - I think Atwater was better but I think the media will warm to this guy. I think he is a little overated myself.
Champ Bailey - If you are letting Whertl or whatever the hell his name is in, Champ could retire tomorrow and get in. His career was a joke compared to Bailey. Bailey truly does deserve to be in the hall though.
Jason Elam - He is going to need 3-5 more huge seasons for us to get in... tough to imagine considering his leg is starting to die on him.

Mike Shanahan - No doubt that if Mike stays in the business for another 10-15 years he'll be challenging for more super bowls and a lot more wins. Don't think he'll ever get to Don Shula unless he committs the rest of his life to this game. He'll get in though.

[TomServo]

Damn! just asking.
so....why isnt Zim in again?

[footstepsfrom#27]

Smith's also played in 24 more games, I'd hope he had more catches when he's played a season and a half more to this point.
That's because Rod spent his first two seasons trying to prove he belonged as an UFA playing special teams while Irvin stepped right in as a #1 draft choice...bad comparison...especially since Irvin played his entire career with a HOF QB and Rod got to spend only 2 seasons as a starting WR with John Elway on the field. If Irvin had to play with Griese, Gus, and Jake...you think he'd have put up numbers in the same universe as Rod's? No way.
The "media hates us" schtick gets old. It's the same thing the Skins and Chiefs fans are saying today. It's a total excuse. Rod has never been recognized as being one of the best 2 WRs in the league in any given season by guys who almost certainly Hall voters too. Spin it anyway you want, that's reality.
Those teams don't have only 1 player in the HOF with 6 Superbowl trips...and they're not hidden in the Mountain Time Zone. Plus those guys have repeatedly proven they're biased to certain teams. Part of it is playing in the Mountain Time Zone...before cable nobody ever saw this team play on the east coast. You think a team with 6 Superbowl appearances deserves only ONE player? I guess these geniuses know best then.
You could, and it's a nice intangible, but we still go back to the fact that everyone knows that. This isn't something that only Broncos fans know about, it's been pointed out quite often during the games in Rod's career. Still hasn't helped him get that elusive 1st Team All-Pro.
Blocking is a "nice intangible"? Funny...I thought it was the very core of the game...his blocking was a critical part of this running game.
Sorry, but you're looking at the present and claiming that it was the same in the past. He was not a leader on that offense. Both were veteran teams, and Rod was low man on the totem pole still trying to establish himself as a NFL player. He started, but how many people went into the first SB season asking who Rod Smith was? He only became a leader when the leaders from the Super Bowl teams left or retired.
Smiths stats during the two Superbow seasons:

1997 16 games, 16 started, 70 catches, 1180 yards, 16.9 ypc, 12 TD's
1998 16 games, 16 started, 86 catches, 1222 yards, 14.2 ypc, 6 TD's

Those are the numbers of a low man on the totem pole? What team were you watching? Rod established himself in the first Superbowl season as a great player...and I promise you every player on that team knew he was a leader even then. Shanny say it...which is why he let more hyped players leave. Rod did not become a leader after all the vets retired. Obviously Elway was the team's main leader, but not even John could match Rod's work ethic...which has always been second to none.

He IS a HOF player.

[TomServo]

and...i Never hyped rod smith v. coke er michael irvin all i did was post their stats

[Tredici]

Rod Smith is not a Hall of Famer. One of my favorite Broncos of all time, but he is not a Hall of Famer.

It depends on what the HOF represents. If it is about players who have broken ground or accomplished what no one else before him has, then Rod certainly deserves consideration as one of the greatest undrafted players the league has produced.

I don't have any specific problem with Thurman Thomas (except Reeves didn't draft him) but have to laugh everytime I see one of those "loser" Bills slip into the HOF. I remember when not winning the big one was justification in not casting a vote. I wonder if Thurman will forget to bring his speech....

[Bronco LB 59]

Here are the forty journalists that have all of the power:

http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/selectionprocess.jsp

Pro Football Hall of Fame Board of Selectors
Arizona Kent Somers, Arizona Republic
Atlanta Len Pasquarelli, ESPN.com
Baltimore Scott Garceau, WMAR-TV
Buffalo Mark Gaughan, Buffalo News
Carolina Charles Chandler, Charlotte Observer
Chicago Don Pierson, Chicago Tribune*
Cincinnati Chick Ludwig, Dayton Daily News
Cleveland Tony Grossi, Cleveland Plain Dealer
Dallas Rick Gosselin, Dallas Morning News*
Denver Jeff Legwold, Rocky Mountain News
Detroit Jerry Green, The Detroit News*
Green Bay Cliff Christl, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel
Houston John McClain, Houston Chronicle*
Indianapolis Mike Chappell, Indianapolis Star
Jacksonville Sam Kouvaris, WJXT-TV
Kansas City Bob Gretz, KCFX Overland Park, KS
Miami Edwin Pope, Miami Herald*
Minnesota Sid Hartman, The Minneapolis Star-Tribune
New England Ron Borges, Boston Globe
New Orleans Pete Finney, Times-Picayune
New York (Giants) Vinny DiTrani, Bergen Record
New York (Jets) Paul Zimmerman, Sports Illustrated
Oakland Frank Cooney, The Sports Xchange
Philadelphia Paul Domowitch, Philadelphia Daily News
Pittsburgh Ed Bouchette, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
St. Louis Bernie Miklasz, St. Louis Post-Dispatch
San Diego Jerry Magee, San Diego Union Tribune*
San Francisco Ira Miller, The Sports Xchange*
Seattle John Clayton, ESPN/ESPN Magazine
Tampa Bay Ira Kaufman, Tampa Tribune
Tennessee David Climer, The Tennessean
Washington David Elfin, Washington Times
PFWA Charean Williams, Ft. Worth Star Telegram
At Large Howard Balzer, The Sports Xchange
At Large Jarrett Bell, USA Today
At Large Dave Goldberg, Associated Press*
At Large Peter King, Sports Illustrated
At Large Bob Oates, Los Angeles Times
At Large Len Shapiro, Miami Herald*
At Large Jim Trotter, San Diego Union-Tribune

* Also serves on the Senior Selection Committee.

[Goobzilla]

Don't get me started on Lynn Swann!

I think I go off on him every year these guys botch their voting. 336 career receptions and 51 TD's. Cliff Branch has better career numbers in every major statistical category and is still on the outside looking in.

[TomServo]

as i said before Fck the h.o.f. but seeing a clown like irvin get in psses me off big time. that craphole in canton will never see my shadow. this all about Respect. i posted rods stats againsts irvins and lynn swanns. hes better. no argument.
anyway a late night argument is Always fun.

[TomServo]

Don't get me started on Lynn Swann!

I think I go off on him every year these guys botch their voting. 336 career receptions and 51 TD's. Cliff Branch has better career numbers in every major statistical category and is still on the outside looking in.

damn right. i couldnt believe he didnt own one stat in the top 50
<!-- / message -->

[footstepsfrom#27]

Rod Smith - He is just good in every area but he has only been truly great in two seasons. He will need another couple 1000 yd seasons if he wants to make it.
Smith has had 8 seasons over 1000 yards while starting only 2 seasons with Elway. Irvin played his entire career with a HOF QB and had only 7 seasons of 1000 or more. Barring injur Rod will pass Irvin in yardage this year. He's already passed him in TD's and catches.

Incidently...while Rod has been active for 24 more games...he and Irvin have almost exactly the same number of starts. Irvin with 159 and Rod with 158. So in almost exactly the same number of games actually on the field, Rod is ahead in catches, and TD's and will catch Irvin in yardage this year, plus he was a far better blocker and played with QB's for almost his entire starting career nowhere near as good as what Irvin had in Aikman.

Anyone who thinks Rod Smith is not a HOF player and Irvin is simply doesn't know this game.

[TomServo]

Dont forget Irvin got away with offensive PI for years. even according to his fans

[Tredici]

He will have his place.

Just like I have mine! You are excellent at people assignments!

[TomServo]

He did push off on some sideline Go Routes, so what, he joins hundreds who have. Part of the reason his push offs were so noticeable, was because he was one of VERY FEW, who could physically dominate the Corners he played against

even his fans admit as much

[footstepsfrom#27]

Dont forget Irvin got away with offensive PI for years. even according to his fans
No kidding...factor out all the illegal catches he got away with and he's not even close to Rod's numbers. Irvin had the good fortune to play with the media darling Crackboys. If he were in Denver all this time nobody would be mentioning him for the HOF.

[bpc]

AFC West HOF's...

Oakland: 13
KC: 7
SD: 6
Denver: 1

[TomServo]

God Damn who was the owner of the Vikings that gave the Crackboys all those draft choices?

[TomServo]

LOL so who was i fighting with? actually who was fighting with me defending UGH michael irvin?

[epicSocialism4tw]

Meck and a massive crew full of disappointed Bronco fans should parade on that place in full orange and blue every time for the HOF enshrinement ceremonies.

Bring signs for Broncos that deserve respect.

Heck, show up this year and have every bronco fan in attendance wear Randy Gradishar jerseys.

[TomServo]

6 count em superbowls 6 and i say Fck the HOF. any club that has michal irvin Sucks.

[bpc]

Smith has had 8 seasons over 1000 yards while starting only 2 seasons with Elway. Irvin played his entire career with a HOF QB and had only 7 seasons of 1000 or more. Barring injur Rod will pass Irvin in yardage this year. He's already passed him in TD's and catches.

Incidently...while Rod has been active for 24 more games...he and Irvin have almost exactly the same number of starts. Irvin with 159 and Rod with 158. So in almost exactly the same number of games actually on the field, Rod is ahead in catches, and TD's and will catch Irvin in yardage this year, plus he was a far better blocker and played with QB's for almost his entire starting career nowhere near as good as what Irvin had in Aikman.

Anyone who thinks Rod Smith is not a HOF player and Irvin is simply doesn't know this game.


Listen, I love Rod but I have the same problem with Art Monk's game... he was effective for a long time... but he didn't scare the life out of anyone besides maybe two or three seasons. Shanahan's offense is partly to blame for that.

Irvin has deserving numbers and a impressive resume with 3 championships but I think the media hype machine has severly helped his cause. I remember last year on the air it was causing a big fuss.

The thing that impresses me about Irvin is his 86 career receptions in the playoffs. He has had some truly great games.

[TomServo]

Irvin has deserving numbers and a impressive resume with 3 championships but I think the media hype machine has severly helped his cause. I remember last year on the air it was causing a big fuss.
so one ring is all that sepaerates crackboy from rod?

[TomServo]

Irvin does NOT deserve HOF. period. just another reason for bronco fans and all other nfl fans to Reject the hof

[TomServo]

SO..you say rod is not HOF worthy. but he is superior to Crack-irvin in all but SB rings. all i say is B.S.

[TomServo]

irvin VS rod smith. one ring

[footstepsfrom#27]

Something else about Irvin...hiw numbers tailed off considerably once Jay Novacek left...and he had Novacek longer than Rod had Sharpe. The year after Novacek left,Irvin's numbers dropped like a stone. 111 catches to 64...a huge drop of 45 catches...over 1600 yards to 962...another huge drop...and a whopping fall from 10 TD's to 2 with his TE gone. Rod spent most of his time without Shannon as a very consistent player...2 seasons out of 4 over 1000 and he was hurt part of that time.

All this and Rod never got caught on tape trying to buy cocain either...I'd take him on my team any day of the week over Irvin.

[TexanBob]

The truth of the matter is that there should be one more WR in the Hall of Fame and that's Jerry Rice. He's obliterated the record book at that position and it's stupid to induct Monk, Reed, Irvin, Smith or anyone else in the meantime.

Let somebody even come laughably close to Rice's numbers before we let any other WRs in the Hall. This should be the new standard.

[footstepsfrom#27]

The truth of the matter is that there should be one more WR in the Hall of Fame and that's Jerry Rice. He's obliterated the record book at that position and it's stupid to induct Monk, Reed, Irvin, Smith or anyone else in the meantime.

Let somebody even come laughably close to Rice's numbers before we let any other WRs in the Hall. This should be the new standard.
He's not even eligibe yet...everyone knows Rice is a sure fire HOF first ballot lock. That's got nothing to do with whether Rod deserves to get in too.

[53Broncos]

Dont forget Irvin got away with offensive PI for years. even according to his fans

Is knocking the defender down and then catching the ball pass interference?:thanku:

[-Slap-]

No, we know we're not getting a fair deal Tom, so you can stop your drama king nonsense.

One minute you're hyping Rod Smith, who wouldn't be eligible until 2013 at this point anyway.

Next you're wallowing in the general mire of us "not getting a fair deal".

Well which one is it?? Are you gonna help us get our fair deal by hyping a player who isn't sligible until 2012 or 2013 anyway??

What have you ever done Tom?? Have you ever called a sports radio show to b****? Have you ever mailed letters to complain?? Have you ever tried to help a candidates cause??

Maybe, and hopefully, you have.

Have you ever groveled like a dog, Tom?

[AFCWestFan]

Few things to understand here...

Thomas will get in, next year is my bet. He deserves it.
Zimmerman is not HOF material. Its just to selective to dip deeper into the pool. Close but no cigar

Ive always though Irvin was a turd. Till last night. Behind all the bravado, there is a very humble man with a very well hidden but clearly thoughtful side. His Interview last night on NFL channel showd a man who is a good man...sure he has had some ups and downs but he is a good man.

His comments about life, family, commitment and his understanding of what it is to be a good citizen should be shown to every player we have today.

Probably a bad post for some of you who choose to hate anyone non Bronco, but its very real. We should hold up the good people and honor them, not the trash and hoodlums in the sport.

[-Slap-]

Than what do you measure it by? Numbers in an inflated passing era?

The guy hasn't been a 1st Team All-Pro a single time in his career. That means that a good chunk of the guys voting for the Hall don't even think that Rod was one of the two best WRs in the league for any season. You cannot say that someone is deserving of the HOF if you are unwilling to compare him to the peers of his generation. Rod's got very good numbers, he doesn't have great numbers. If you want to make it the Hall of Very Good, then Rod should get in.

and Rod was not one of the leaders on the SB teams, you're completely making that up and you know it.

I sure as hell don't measure it by goddamn All Pro votes.

This is some brilliant logic here. The same jerks who underrate players during their careers get to apply that same criteria to screw them again five years later.

There wasn't a wide receiver in football who played better than Rod Smith in 2000 and 2001. I would expect the pricks in the national media to be unaware of that fact, but I expect a little more from a Bronco fan. Especially one who watched Rod carry that team on his back for two years like no player since John Elway in his heyday. If you want to sweep that under the rug because some corpulent peckerhead at the New York Times reflex voted for Randy Moss for the Pro Bowl, that's your choice.

Top three in the League among blocking WR throughout his career. Unbelievable clubhouse guy. Destroying all records for undrafted free agent WR.

Who needs the HOF to dog our greatest players? We can obviously handle that job inhouse.

+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Rushing | Receiving |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 1995 den | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 6 152 25.3 1 |
| 1996 den | 10 | 1 1 1.0 0 | 16 237 14.8 2 |
| 1997 den | 16 | 5 16 3.2 0 | 70 1180 16.9 12 |
| 1998 den | 16 | 6 63 10.5 0 | 86 1222 14.2 6 |
| 1999 den | 15 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 79 1020 12.9 4 |
| 2000 den | 16 | 6 99 16.5 1 | 100 1602 16.0 8 |
| 2001 den | 15 | 3 27 9.0 0 | 113 1343 11.9 11 |
| 2002 den | 16 | 6 9 1.5 0 | 89 1027 11.5 5 |
| 2003 den | 15 | 10 98 9.8 0 | 74 845 11.4 3 |
| 2004 den | 16 | 5 33 6.6 0 | 79 1144 14.5 7 |
| 2005 den | 16 | 1 7 7.0 0 | 85 1105 13.0 6 |
| 2006 den | 16 | 1 -5 -5.0 0 | 52 512 9.8 3 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| TOTAL | 183 | 44 348 7.9 1 | 849 11389 13.4 68 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/7430/pl239997mx2.jpg

[-Slap-]

Few things to understand here...

Thomas will get in, next year is my bet. He deserves it.
Zimmerman is not HOF material. Its just to selective to dip deeper into the pool. Close but no cigar

Ive always though Irvin was a turd. Till last night. Behind all the bravado, there is a very humble man with a very well hidden but clearly thoughtful side. His Interview last night on NFL channel showd a man who is a good man...sure he has had some ups and downs but he is a good man.

His comments about life, family, commitment and his understanding of what it is to be a good citizen should be shown to every player we have today.

Probably a bad post for some of you who choose to hate anyone non Bronco, but its very real. We should hold up the good people and honor them, not the trash and hoodlums in the sport.

What a naive idiot. Its people like you that make all bad things possible.

[elsid13]

I have no problem with The Cokehead getting in. He was the WR on those early 90s Cowboys teams.

I will have problem with fat ass Bettis when he gets in and TD is sitting on the outside. That fat ass wasn't the best RB of his era all he did was stay healthy and fall forward. While TD was the dominate running back of his time on the field.

Smith will be close, he played a long time and get a lot of football player respect, but jackasses like Dr. Z will throw some crappy NFC East WR in front of him. And Zimmerman should be in, but because he refused to talk to media will have hard time getting in.

The Denver Rep needs to step in up and start making a case for our boys

[-Slap-]

wow! thanks for acknowledging irvins many offensive p.i. non calls. if he played for the broncos would he have ever gotten away with that crap?
as i said. all rod lacks is one ring to be shown irvins superior.

No, see, he was strong enough to push off, so that means it was okay.

[Bronx33]

Same shyt every year from the good old boys club, the good news if these f***heads will be dying some day and be replaced by a whole new set of f***heads. I swear these guys must jerk off in glee when they decide the yearly picks knowing d@mn well they are screwing the deserving over.

[-Slap-]

AFC West HOF's...

Oakland: 13
KC: 7
SD: 6
Denver: 1

But we're not supposed to complain about being disrespected. The Chargers and Chiefs have two Super Bowls between them and 13 Hall of Famers. We have six Super Bowls and two more appearances in the AFC Championship Game and we have our solitary Hall of Famer only because it was literally impossible to deny him.

[Tredici]

Few things to understand here...

Thomas will get in, next year is my bet. He deserves it.
Zimmerman is not HOF material. Its just to selective to dip deeper into the pool. Close but no cigar

Ive always though Irvin was a turd. Till last night. Behind all the bravado, there is a very humble man with a very well hidden but clearly thoughtful side. His Interview last night on NFL channel showd a man who is a good man...sure he has had some ups and downs but he is a good man.

His comments about life, family, commitment and his understanding of what it is to be a good citizen should be shown to every player we have today.

Probably a bad post for some of you who choose to hate anyone non Bronco, but its very real. We should hold up the good people and honor them, not the trash and hoodlums in the sport.


Too bad you hide behind that AFC West Fan moniker. Can't work up the balls to call yourself Kansas City Chief fan? Guess you must be ashamed of your team. Furthering the stereotype Chieffan hillbilly mentality of a player populating the world with illegimate bastards and not providing for them as good people to honor. Too bad Derrick didn't get to hear Michael's comments. Maybe he could've become a man, too.

[The Moops]

The more telling interview with Irvin was on Real Sports. He was humble, sincere, and contrite about his past mistakes. I also didn't buy one iota of it. I believe everything coming out of his mouth was for the benefit of the 40 HOF sportswriters he knew would be watching. Those jerks at HBO gave him a national forum so he could try to show how much he's changed and is now a good person.

I'm sorry. I know the HOF selectors are told that what a player does off the field shouldn't count. But I believe it should. Baseball's HOF criteria has it written in their bylaws. I think by letting guys in like Irvin you're telling kids that it's OK to be a drug-sniffing, racist bum off the field. But as long as you've got some Super Bowl rings, you're a HOFer. I think the pro football HOF should definitely take into consideration what you did on- and-off the field.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Smiths stats during the two Superbow seasons:

1997 16 games, 16 started, 70 catches, 1180 yards, 16.9 ypc, 12 TD's
1998 16 games, 16 started, 86 catches, 1222 yards, 14.2 ypc, 6 TD's

Those are the numbers of a low man on the totem pole? What team were you watching? Rod established himself in the first Superbowl season as a great player...and I promise you every player on that team knew he was a leader even then. Shanny say it...which is why he let more hyped players leave. Rod did not become a leader after all the vets retired. Obviously Elway was the team's main leader, but not even John could match Rod's work ethic...which has always been second to none.

He IS a HOF player.

I'm not going to have a circular argument with all the other stuff about whether or not he's a HOFer, but once again, Rod was not a leader. Do you not understand the comment about those Super Bowl teams being a veteran team? That is why Rod was not a leader on those teams, it has nothing to do with you citing his stats from that season.

Let's breakdown the offense, and you tell me where Rod ranks out of the skill position players as a team leader:

Elway, Sharpe, Griffith, TD, McCaffrey, Smith

and you can sit there and talk work ethic all you want, but he played on a team with Sharpe and Davis. Two guys who were drafed late and had to work for everything they got and were more established on the team at that point. Yes I'm sure everyone thought Rod was a hard worker, he was still not a leader on that team.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I sure as hell don't measure it by goddamn All Pro votes.

This is some brilliant logic here. The same jerks who underrate players during their careers get to apply that same criteria to screw them again five years later.

There wasn't a wide receiver in football who played better than Rod Smith in 2000 and 2001. I would expect the pricks in the national media to be unaware of that fact, but I expect a little more from a Bronco fan. Especially one who watched Rod carry that team on his back for two years like no player since John Elway in his heyday. If you want to sweep that under the rug because some corpulent peckerhead at the New York Times reflex voted for Randy Moss for the Pro Bowl, that's your choice.


and I'd hoped you understood that All-Pro votes and the Pro Bowl are two entirely different things.

2 years of dominance? If that's the criteria, we should all be leading the charge for TD then.

But let's just base it on stats, that way we don't have to compare Rod to other WRs of this generation.

[Spider]

Broncos who should be in the HOF with Elway

1) Lionel Taylor
2) Goose Gonsoulin
3) Floyd Little
4) Randy Gradishar
5) Louise Wright
6) Karl Mecklenburg
7) Dennis Smith
8) Steve Atwater
9) Gary Zimmerman
10) Terrell Davis
11) Shanon Sharpe
12) Rod Smith

The best we can hope for is Sharpe and Rod make it in...pathetic.
Yeah it is Pathetic , if these guys were on other teams , they would be the measuring stick for their positions ......

[Spider]

FS27 brought in some ass kicking arguments , good job , you confronted each argument , and beat em down ...........

[Hercules Rockefeller]

FS27 brought in some ass kicking arguments , good job , you confronted each argument , and beat em down ...........

Yes. My favorite were, 'the media doesn't like us", using stats to point out a non-quantifiable intangible like leadership when Rod was the most junior player on offense on the 1st SB team and the second most junior player on the 2nd team. Also liked how the number of individual honors a player has accumulated over his career (like Rod's 0 1st team All-Pros) don't mean anything when it doesn't strengthen someone's HOF argument.

That just blows people out of the water.

[Garcia Bronco]

Dang I was hoping Zim got in so we all had a reason to go to Canton again. Zim robbed again.

Why waste the time going to that dump

[Spider]

Yes. My favorite were, 'the media doesn't like us", using stats to point out a non-quantifiable intangible like leadership when Rod was the most junior player on offense on the 1st SB team and the second most junior player on the 2nd team. Also liked how the number of individual honors a player has accumulated over his career (like Rod's 0 1st team All-Pros) don't mean anything when it doesn't strengthen someone's HOF argument.

That just blows people out of the water.

well it is like this , I read both sides ,you guys couldnt make an argument why alot of Broncos dont belong .........Rod Smith clearly belongs , but you know as well as I do , that Randy "things are not going well so I am heading to the locker room early" Moss will get there long before rod , and it is beacuse of People like the ones on here that have that glory Mentality , pro Bowls , All pro , means everything ............

[AFCWestFan]

I disagree...Moss wont ever make it...no way. Rod Smith will in time if he gets the respect from the voters.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

What a naive idiot. Its people like you that make all bad things possible.

There are some who should be banned from this board based on their level of stupidity.

[Spider]

I disagree...Moss wont ever make it...no way. Rod Smith will in time if he gets the respect from the voters.

LOL , you underestimate the Stupidity of the HOF comity .......Randy Moss will get in ......

[Bronx33]

I disagree...Moss wont ever make it...no way. Rod Smith will in time if he gets the respect from the voters.


You mean a bronco will get in when the league runs out of excuses which = 2020

[B-Love]

No, see, he was strong enough to push off, so that means it was okay.

Watching a guy of your caliber and knowledge simply recap Michael Irvin's career as "a guy who pushed off" is ridiculous.

But in my 8 years on boards with you, there are issues and players/coaches that you are simply inflexible about.

I dislike Michael irvin as much as you do, but you take this **** way too personal and I don't. You let your personal disdain for someone cloud you objectivity of that players skills and career.

All you've said on this thread is Michael Irvin committed P.I. How about a more realistic look at his great career?

[BroncoBuff]

AFC West HOF's...
Oakland: 13
KC: 7
SD: 6
Denver: 1
But we're not supposed to complain about being disrespected. The Chargers and Chiefs have two Super Bowls between them and 13 Hall of Famers. We have six Super Bowls and two more appearances in the AFC Championship Game and we have our solitary Hall of Famer only because it was literally impossible to deny him.

Allow me to BOLD this post for truth:

But we're not supposed to complain about being disrespected. The Chargers and Chiefs have two Super Bowls between them and 13 Hall of Famers. We have six Super Bowls and two more appearances in the AFC Championship Game and we have our solitary Hall of Famer only because it was literally impossible to deny him.

[B-Love]

I was going to debate this Irvin Rod Smith thing more, but I am losing the day.

I gotta work for the next 5 hours before kickoff, and then watch the game.

I'll continue this debate tomorrow.

Enjoy the game folks.

[Tredici]

I'm not going to have a circular argument with all the other stuff about whether or not he's a HOFer, but once again, Rod was not a leader. Do you not understand the comment about those Super Bowl teams being a veteran team? That is why Rod was not a leader on those teams, it has nothing to do with you citing his stats from that season.

Let's breakdown the offense, and you tell me where Rod ranks out of the skill position players as a team leader:

Elway, Sharpe, Griffith, TD, McCaffrey, Smith

and you can sit there and talk work ethic all you want, but he played on a team with Sharpe and Davis. Two guys who were drafed late and had to work for everything they got and were more established on the team at that point. Yes I'm sure everyone thought Rod was a hard worker, he was still not a leader on that team.

No sense in getting in any arguements about intangibles. What I think people are forgetting is Rod is in a stat category by himself. His stats don't have to compare to guys who were former first round draft picks. His credentials stand alone. That is what should eventually get him some serious consideration. If the HOF is truly for accomplishing what no other individual before you has, then Rod will be in. If it's just about comparing statistical data, then he won't.

[BroncoBuff]

Based on the list of WRs who are not in the Hall ... (I think like 11 of the top 15 are NOT in), I think Rod's chances are very, very low.

B-Love has a point that a HOF guy should have been the best in the league at his position at some point in his career - All-Pro teams do matter. I've tried to promote that gauge for former Broncos here recently ... the best in the league at his position. We've had very few guys who qualify for that. Champ is the only one in the last decade.


*EDIT* Maybe Nalen

[Spider]

Based on the list of WRs who are not in the Hall ... (I think like 11 of the top 15 are NOT in), I think Rod's chances are very, very low.

B-Love has a point that a HOF guy should have been the best in the league at his position at some point in his career - All-Pro teams do matter. I've tried to promote that gauge for former Broncos here recently ... the best in the league at his position. We've had very few guys who qualify for that. Champ is the only one in the last decade.


*EDIT* Maybe Nalen

this is a strong list from FS27
Originally Posted by footstepsfrom#27 View Post
Broncos who should be in the HOF with Elway

1) Lionel Taylor
2) Goose Gonsoulin
3) Floyd Little
4) Randy Gradishar
5) Louise Wright
6) Karl Mecklenburg
7) Dennis Smith
8) Steve Atwater
9) Gary Zimmerman
10) Terrell Davis
11) Shanon Sharpe
12) Rod Smith
take Little for example , we he retired he led the NFL in all purpose Yards , hell when Little Retired he was in the top 10 of NFL rushers , and thats saying lot with the Oline Denver had .........If DS49 had went to the Giants , or the Bears , his name would be thrown around like Ronnie Lotts , though neither player would make it in todays NFL ..........

[DomCasual]

I can't understand why Rod Smith wouldn't get in, although I have little doubt that he won't.

The way I see it, the Hall of Fame should be about four things, in this order:

1) Excellence in the body of work over your career. If you're short on this one, it's almost (but not completely) impossible to get in.

2) Winning. Championships help, but are not altogether necessary.

3) Intangibles. What made you unique in your era? All things being equal, what sets you apart from guys with similar "bodies of work?"

4) Character. Michael Irvin is the example of how this isn't necessarily a non-starter for enshrinement. But it does make a difference at some level, if you're comparing two similarly-qualified candidates.

So, looking at Rod Smith based on these criteria:

1) He's got better numbers than many, if not most, of the WRs currently in the Hall. You say, "But it's a passing era - the numbers are skewed." Well, he either has or will have better numbers in Receptions, Receiving Yards, and Receiving TDs than the modern era guy that just got in, Michael Irvin.

2) He won two Super Bowl rings, and he had MVP-like numbers in the second one.

3) Never in the history of the game has a WR done so much with so little. He embodies what the game should be all about: Work hard and be coachable and you can achieve great things. Compare him to guys from his era with similar numbers - Jimmy Smith or Keenan McCardell, for example - and he stands head and shoulders above them, from the undrafted free agent angle alone (among other things).

4) He had the one slip up earlier in his career with the domestic violence thing. He's explained that and apologized for it. Outside of that, it's hard to imagine a player being a better citizen and team-first guy. He's been one of the most consistent blocking WRs in the game through his career. You are constantly hearing about him taking young WRs under his wing, despite the fact that he could always be training his replacement. He never misses off-season workouts - has never missed a single one in a long career, if I am not mistaken. If you were putting together a list of the qualities you would want for leaders on your team, Rod Smith has almost every one of them.

So, tell me - why doesn't he get in?

[BroncoBuff]

No offense, §pider, but this is the kind of Bronco-bias that leads to frustration.

I love Louie Wright - he and Fat Lever are my favorite pro athletes ever. And I love Atwater and DS49 too ....


But, do you know how many DBs are in the HOF?



17.



And that's safeties and CBs combined. http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/positions.html

Louie Wright has no business being discussed in that class of players. 4 Pro-Bowls. Atwater at least had 8 Pro Bowls and 2 Lombardis ... but he's not a serious contender - he's been eligible two years now, and not a peep. I love Louie Wright, but he's more in the Ray Claiborne/Dave Brown class of player, and DS49 and Atwater in the Ken Easley class.

Not bad, but not Hall.

[Spider]

Louie Wright has no business being discussed in that class of players.

sure he does ......... Run support , 20+ picks .....fumble recoveries .Wright did it all

[Hercules Rockefeller]

B-Love has a point that a HOF guy should have been the best in the league at his position at some point in his career - All-Pro teams do matter. I've tried to promote that gauge for former Broncos here recently ... the best in the league at his position. We've had very few guys who qualify for that. Champ is the only one in the last decade.


*EDIT* Maybe Nalen

Based on the guys I have seen:

Nalen- 5-time All-Pro, 2 rings. The Broncos have led the league in points, rushing yards, and total offense since he became a starter

Sharpe- obvious

Elam- I believe he's been an All-Pro 3 times, 2 rings. Tied for the longest FG in league history. Longest consecutive streak of made XPs. Most consecutive 100-point seasons in league history (he's never been under 100 pts in a season). Don't know if this has changed in recent years, but as of like '02 or '03, he was the most accurate kicker outside 40 yds in league history.
-Elam might not get in because if they put a K in, it will probably be Vinatieri though Jason more than deserves it

Atwater- All-Decade in the 90's

TD- regular season stuff is obvious, I don't think people cite his playoff stats enough. http://www.superbowl.com/playoffs/records/indiv_rushing

Check out where he ranks all-time and in only 8 playoff games. What's not on there is his YPG, IIRC it was over 125 ypg. So basically against the best teams in the league when it mattered, TD was on pace for over 2,000 yds if it was a 16-game season.

Zim- he and Rice are the only 2-time All-Decade players not currently in the Hall, and Rice will get in the second he's eligible.

[BroncoBuff]

I can't understand why Rod Smith wouldn't get in, although I have little doubt that he won't.

Well, I think I mentioned ... that appx 11 of the top 15 WRs of ALL-TIME are NOT in the HOF ... (hence, your argument that Rod has better #'s than many in the Hall).

PLUS: There's maybe a dozen WRs active right now who will be pushing into that Top 15 soon ... and sometimes it's just a matter of numbers -Zimmerman, for example .... OTs Rayfield Wright and Bob Brown went in last year, and there's no way in hell they're voting 3 OTs. This year Matthews was a lock and they voted in old-timer Gene Hickerson. Zim has a better chance getting in in a O-Line lighter class.





BTW: The Broncos already have a DB in the Hall of Fame! We forget, because he's a hated raider, but Willie Brown played 3 or 4 years in Denver ;D

[Bronx33]

Point is crackhead should have been put at the end of the line (was he?) so what the league is saying is you can act anyway you want representing the NFL and still get on the short list into the HOF.

[BroncoBuff]

Hey, I'm with you .... but if Miss America can snort cocaine and keep her crown, there has definitely been a societal see-change in acceptable behavior for those we place on pedestals.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I'm not going to have a circular argument with all the other stuff about whether or not he's a HOFer, but once again, Rod was not a leader. Do you not understand the comment about those Super Bowl teams being a veteran team? That is why Rod was not a leader on those teams, it has nothing to do with you citing his stats from that season.
Based on the idiotic reasoning that Smith was not a leader because he was YOUNG, we can conclude that Marino and Roethlisberger were not leaders as young QB's that went to the Superbowl, Elway wasn't a leader till he was in the league for 10 years, and neither was Aikman...3 of those 4 are in the HOF and we'll wait 17 years to see if the other one is. YOUTH has zip to do with it. Incidently...in case you missed it...Emmitt Smith was a 3rd year player the year the Crackboys won their first Superbowl under Jimmy Johnson...same as Rod...I guess he wasn't a leader either though...how stupid is that?

EVERY player on the Broncos knew Rod Smith was an UNDRAFTED scrub who worked his way up from practice squad tackling dummy to star status by sheer effort; the very definition of LEADERSHIP has to do with attitude ON and OFF the field and the will to win. You think Irvin was an off the field leader? A guy who led by example like Rod? Gimme a break. Maybe if you're thinking or starting a crime syndicate you'd have a case.

You question Rod making the HOF while supporting Crackhead based on leadership? That's insane. And since when does the REST OF HIS CAREER not count as well for HOF consideration? Even if what you said about him not being a leader on the Superbowl teams was true, which it's not...how does that negate the time he's spent since then as a leader? For half his career he's basically been the ONLY option in the passing game...something Irvin NEVER had to endure. Let's kick all the players out of the HOF who had the missfortune of playing on Superbowl champions early in their career since obviously there were more veteran players on the field. Sheer genius.

Not content with questioning the leadership of one of the hardest working players in the NFL, you also tossed out bogus numbers on his number of starts which weren't even accurate. You gave him 24 more STARTS than Irvin in order to explain the fact that his numbers are just as good as Irvins, which was false because Rod spent two years working his *** off just to prove he belonged on the team while not getting to play, and Prima Donna stepped into the starting spot as a #1 draft choice. The numbers don't lie. Rod has equivilent numbers IN THE SAME NUMBER OF STARTS...and he's done it with the 3 stooges throwing him the ball for all but 2 years of his career, while Crackhead had a HOF player his entire time in Dallas at QB.
Let's breakdown the offense, and you tell me where Rod ranks out of the skill position players as a team leader:

Elway, Sharpe, Griffith, TD, McCaffrey, Smith

and you can sit there and talk work ethic all you want, but he played on a team with Sharpe and Davis. Two guys who were drafed late and had to work for everything they got and were more established on the team at that point. Yes I'm sure everyone thought Rod was a hard worker, he was still not a leader on that team.
I guess you don't realize that a team can actually have MORE than one or two leaders do you? Shannon was a great player WHO WAS DRAFTED...TD WAD DRAFTED...and why do you have Howard Griffith in this list? He was a great blocker and that's about it...nobody in the NFL would say he was the leadership core of the Broncos based on his blocking. Eddie Mac was a fine player WHO WAS DRAFTED...NOBODY who ever WALKED ON in the NFL has done what Rod Smith had done

Nobody...ever.

[Bronx33]

Hey, I'm with you .... but if Miss America can snort cocaine and keep her crown, there has definitely been a societal see-change in acceptable behavior for those we place on pedestals.

I just think a person should be held accountable for his actions.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

God, you're all over the place now.

You're the genius who pointed out that Rod was a leader on the Super Bowl teams, all I pointed out was that he was a leader now, he was not a leader then. People can grow into leadership roles, Rod did.

You're right there can be more than 2 leaders on a team. Guess what? Rod wasn't the #3, #4, or #5 leader on the offense on those Super Bowl teams. Leadership doesn't always have everything to do with their stats. Hence your idiotic point that Rod was somehow a leader because he had two very good seasons during their Super Bowl runs. Do you actually think that if Griffith actually opened his mouth in the lockerroom, people didn't listen? Yes, Griffith was much more of a leader on those teams than Rod.

[BroncoBuff]

I totally agree, and am optimistic about: Nalen and Zimmerman. Sharpe is a lock.

And I personally think Atwater desrves serious consideration.



But Elam? No way ... they just don't take kickers.

And TD? Sad to say, but he has no shot. There will be a steady flow of RBs with better stats becoming eligible year after year after year now ... Thurman just got in, Eddie George, Curtis Martin, Emmitt Smith, Jerome Bettis, Marshall Faulk, even guys you'd roll your eyes at now like Jamal Lewis and Priest Holmes. I'm sure there are others, and TD will get swallowed up. I'm afraid TD will go down as a 3-year blazing star on a team perfectly suited for the running game. Sad, but I'm thinking true.

[DomCasual]

Well, I think I mentioned ... that appx 11 of the top 15 WRs of ALL-TIME are NOT in the HOF ... (hence, your argument that Rod has better #'s than many in the Hall).

PLUS: There's maybe a dozen WRs active right now who will be pushing into that Top 15 soon ... and sometimes it's just a matter of numbers -Zimmerman, for example .... OTs Rayfield Wright and Bob Brown went in last year, and there's no way in hell they're voting 3 OTs. This year Matthews was a lock and they voted in old-timer Gene Hickerson. Zim has a better chance getting in in a O-Line lighter class.





BTW: The Broncos already have a DB in the Hall of Fame! We forget, because he's a hated raider, but Willie Brown played 3 or 4 years in Denver ;D

I think you missed my point. The numbers are just the gateway to getting considered. By themselves, they are probably not enough. That's why guys like McCardell and Jimmy Smith won't get a sniff. But when you combine the other factors, I think Rod Smith should get in.

I guess I would ask this. If Rod Smith doesn't get in, then what do you have to do anymore as a WR to get in? Numbers? Check. Championships? Check. Character/Likability? Check. Uniqueness/Story? Check. Are we only going to enshrine those that end up breaking Rice's receiving records from here on out?

I certainly don't see Michael Irvin being a more compelling candidate than Rod Smith - other than the fact that he played for a team that seems to have broken the "enshrinement barrier" far more effectively than the Broncos.

[footstepsfrom#27]

and I'd hoped you understood that All-Pro votes and the Pro Bowl are two entirely different things.

2 years of dominance? If that's the criteria, we should all be leading the charge for TD then.
Two years? Try 8...that's the number of 1000 yard seasons he has compared to 7 for Crackhead. Did you even watch this team?
But let's just base it on stats, that way we don't have to compare Rod to other WRs of this generation.
I understand why you don't like to base it on stats, since Rod has 100 more catches than the Plate Maker in the same number of starts and only 2 years with a real QB throwing him the ball, but with the exception of Jerry Rice, no other WR of this era has been clearly better than Rod Smith. His blocking was a huge part of our running game...something you call an "intangible". Take the Crackhead off the Cowboys and he's not in the HOF.

[Rohirrim]

IMO, if all Broncos fans boycotted the purchase of all NFL gear until at least 5 Broncos were in the HOF, next year it would happen. ;D

[epicSocialism4tw]

Few things to understand here...


Thanks for taking the time to elucidate the strange biases that you have carried into this forum. If you were in any way an AFC West fan, you would understand how great Zimmerman was, and especially his importance as the centerpiece on perhaps the NFL's greatest run-blocking line of all-time.

Thomas will get in, next year is my bet. He deserves it.

Kurt Cobain syndrome...we overrate the tragically lost.

Zimmerman is not HOF material. Its just to selective to dip deeper into the pool. Close but no cigar

Sorry dude, but that might be the least educated statement ever made on this board. I pick at the basketball fans on this site alot for not bringing any pertinent information to butress their opinions, but this statement ranks right down there with the worst of them.

Ive always though Irvin was a turd. Till last night. Behind all the bravado, there is a very humble man with a very well hidden but clearly thoughtful side. His Interview last night on NFL channel showd a man who is a good man...sure he has had some ups and downs but he is a good man.

Enough syrup might make a turd taste like a waffle, but I'm not going to be the one to put it in my mouth. I'll just ask you how it tastes.

His comments about life, family, commitment and his understanding of what it is to be a good citizen should be shown to every player we have today.


If I'm teaching my children good wholesome values, regular crack use and intimate knowledge of the ladies of the night are a couple of the myriad of things that I would want them to know as they set off toward success.

Probably a bad post for some of you who choose to hate anyone non Bronco, but its very real. We should hold up the good people and honor them, not the trash and hoodlums in the sport.

That has to be the strangest juxtaposition of ideas I have ever seen on this site. On the wall of NFL role models, which one of these doesnt belong: Tom Landry, Tony Dungy, Lamar Hunt, Rod Smith, Reggie White, Barry Sanders, John Lynch, Champ Bailey, Micheal Irvin. Take your time...I know it's a tough question.

[footstepsfrom#27]

God, you're all over the place now.

You're the genius who pointed out that Rod was a leader on the Super Bowl teams, all I pointed out was that he was a leader now, he was not a leader then. People can grow into leadership roles, Rod did.
I said he was "a" leader...not "the" leader...obviously that was Elway. TD was two years YOUNGER than Rod...was he a leader? Sure he was...because he worked his way into respect...as did Rod. You don't think this veteran team was impressed that an UFA was starting and catching balls for 1100 yards?
You're right there can be more than 2 leaders on a team. Guess what? Rod wasn't the #3, #4, or #5 leader on the offense on those Super Bowl teams. Leadership doesn't always have everything to do with their stats. Hence your idiotic point that Rod was somehow a leader because he had two very good seasons during their Super Bowl runs. Do you actually think that if Griffith actually opened his mouth in the lockerroom, people didn't listen? Yes, Griffith was much more of a leader on those teams than Rod.
Howard Griffith had a grand total of 9 carries in two years before he got to Denver...and nobody other than you will ever mention him in the same breath with Rod Smith when it comes to leadership.

[BroncoBuff]

IMO, if all Broncos fans boycotted the purchase of all NFL gear until at least 5 Broncos were in the HOF, next year it would happen. ;D

Wow .... that is a great idea.

Would Bowlen/the team suffer disproportionately? If not, I think we should lead the charge.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Originally Posted by BroncoBuff

Based on the list of WRs who are not in the Hall ... (I think like 11 of the top 15 are NOT in), I think Rod's chances are very, very low.

B-Love has a point that a HOF guy should have been the best in the league at his position at some point in his career - All-Pro teams do matter. I've tried to promote that gauge for former Broncos here recently ... the best in the league at his position. We've had very few guys who qualify for that. Champ is the only one in the last decade.
Michael Irvin and Troy Aikman were not the best players at their positions and both are in the HOF...I can make an argument that Emmitt Smith was never as good as Barry Sanders...but he's in too because he played behind the most physically dominant offensive line in 30 years.

You don't have to be THE BEST...just ONE of the best. Otherwise 3/4 of the inductees would not be there.

Jerry Rice was the only receiver in the NFL clearly superior to Rod Smith in this era.

[BroncoBuff]

Michael Irvin and Troy Aikman were not the best players at their positions and both are in the HOF...I can make an argument that Emmitt Smith was never as good as Barry Sanders...but he's in too because he played behind the most physically dominant offensive line in 30 years.
I didn't say being the best at your position is the ONLY category ... but it should be a benchmark. Yes, Sanders was better than Emmitt imo too, but there are other, HUGE factors: Those Cowboys won 3 Super Bowls, and Emmitt is #1 all-time yards!


Jerry Rice was the only receiver in the NFL clearly superior to Rod Smith in this era.
You MUST be joking. I don't even know where to start with that ...





And I HATE arguing against Broncos - the homer-myopic irrational exuberance that so many have for the Broncos in HOF topic puts me in that difficult position, and it's not fair. LOOK AT THE NUMEBRS! 11 of the top 15 WRs are not in the Hall!!
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/misc/rcy.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/misc/rec.htm

Don't argue for Rod in a vacuum .... argue why Rod is more deserving than Art Monk, or Andre Reed, or Cris Carter, Henry Ellard, Tim Brown, Irving Fryar, Jimmy Smith, even active guys like Marvin Harrison, Isaac Bruce, Keenan McCardell - and even (gad) Randy Moss and Terrell Owens!!

So ... WITHOUT MENTIONING CHARACTER: Why should Rod get in ahead of this dozen or so guys?

[Spider]

I didn't say being the best at your position is the ONLY category ... but it should be a benchmark. Yes, Sanders was better than Emmitt imo too, but there are other, HUGE factors: Those Cowboys won 3 Super Bowls, and Emmitt is #1 all-time yards!



You MUST be joking. I don't even know where to start with that ...





And I HATE arguing against Broncos - the homer-myopic irrational exuberance that so many have for the Broncos in HOF topic puts me in that difficult position, and it's not fair. LOOK AT THE NUMEBRS! 11 of the top 15 WRs are not in the Hall!!
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/misc/rcy.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/misc/rec.htm

Don't argue for Rod in a vacuum .... argue why Rod is more deserving than Art Monk, or Andre Reed, or Cris Carter, Henry Ellard, Tim Brown, Irving Fryar, Jimmy Smith, even active guys like Marvin Harrison, Isaac Bruce, Keenan McCardell - and even (gad) Randy Moss and Terrell Owens!!

So ... WITHOUT MENTIONING CHARACTER: Why should Rod get in ahead of this dozen or so guys?
for starters those guys were Drafted , Rod was a walk on , Back 2 Back SB wins , Now argue why those guys are more deserving then Rod

[BroncoBuff]

Okay, §pider .... I'll argue for Rod.

And I'm convinced!

Rod is as deserving as Michael Irvin - here's the numbers. Irvin has three Lombardis to Rod's two, but that seems like quibbling.

ROD SMITH:
+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Rushing | Receiving |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 1995 den | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 6 152 25.3 1 |
| 1996 den | 10 | 1 1 1.0 0 | 16 237 14.8 2 |
| 1997 den | 16 | 5 16 3.2 0 | 70 1180 16.9 12 |
| 1998 den | 16 | 6 63 10.5 0 | 86 1222 14.2 6 |
| 1999 den | 15 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 79 1020 12.9 4 |
| 2000 den | 16 | 6 99 16.5 1 | 100 1602 16.0 8 |
| 2001 den | 15 | 3 27 9.0 0 | 113 1343 11.9 11 |
| 2002 den | 16 | 6 9 1.5 0 | 89 1027 11.5 5 |
| 2003 den | 15 | 10 98 9.8 0 | 74 845 11.4 3 |
| 2004 den | 16 | 5 33 6.6 0 | 79 1144 14.5 7 |
| 2005 den | 16 | 1 7 7.0 0 | 85 1105 13.0 6 |
| 2006 den | 16 | 1 -5 -5.0 0 | 52 512 9.8 3 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| TOTAL | 183 | 44 348 7.9 1 | 849 11389 13.4 68 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
MICHAEL IRVIN:
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/9422/irvinre2.jpg



Rod has 100 more catches and 3 more TDs

Irvin has 500 more yards.


So Rod should get in! There will be a lotta WRs deserving with Rod, but the Hall set the standard yesterday - and Rod has met it!

[Spider]

Okay, §pider .... I'll argue for Rod.

And I'm convinced!

Rod is as deserving as Michael Irvin - here's the numbers. Irvin has three Lombardis to Rod's two, but that seems like quibbling.

ROD SMITH:
+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Rushing | Receiving |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 1995 den | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 6 152 25.3 1 |
| 1996 den | 10 | 1 1 1.0 0 | 16 237 14.8 2 |
| 1997 den | 16 | 5 16 3.2 0 | 70 1180 16.9 12 |
| 1998 den | 16 | 6 63 10.5 0 | 86 1222 14.2 6 |
| 1999 den | 15 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 79 1020 12.9 4 |
| 2000 den | 16 | 6 99 16.5 1 | 100 1602 16.0 8 |
| 2001 den | 15 | 3 27 9.0 0 | 113 1343 11.9 11 |
| 2002 den | 16 | 6 9 1.5 0 | 89 1027 11.5 5 |
| 2003 den | 15 | 10 98 9.8 0 | 74 845 11.4 3 |
| 2004 den | 16 | 5 33 6.6 0 | 79 1144 14.5 7 |
| 2005 den | 16 | 1 7 7.0 0 | 85 1105 13.0 6 |
| 2006 den | 16 | 1 -5 -5.0 0 | 52 512 9.8 3 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| TOTAL | 183 | 44 348 7.9 1 | 849 11389 13.4 68 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
MICHAEL IRVIN:
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/9422/irvinre2.jpg



Rod has 100 more catches and 3 more TDs

Irvin has 500 more yards.


So Rod should get in! There will be a lotta WRs deserving with Rod, but the Hall set the standard yesterday - and Rod has met it!
;D Compare him to tim Brown all the others , but I am not a #'s guy , what has impressed me was no one thought Rod was worth giving a shot to draft , he worked his ass off to get where he is ....... gotta love the story bro

[AFCWestFan]

Mr Llama...

I guess you were not able to see the interview I spoke of that was on NFL Channel last evening. I was amazed to see a different side Of Irvin. It challanged my perceptions of him as well. And I would have had some of the same feelings you have until I saw it last evening. New information can challenge old information and people can and do change for the better.

Pile on if you like because I made an observation you disagree with. I didnt make it to make you mad or upset you.

Not sure your point regarding Derrick Thomas other than you must feel that he was not a HOF player but perhaps will be becase he is dead? I will have to think that through. I dont quite see him being dead as having added to his stellar record on the field.

I see Zimmerman as a great example of a guy who did his job, did it well, and performed at a high level. One gets the feeling from your post that I am implying he was an unworthy player. Not at all the case. My point was I just cannot see him rising to a level of HOF when there are only a small number of slots and so many great players to sift through.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Two years? Try 8...that's the number of 1000 yard seasons he has compared to 7 for Crackhead. Did you even watch this team?

I understand why you don't like to base it on stats, since Rod has 100 more catches than the Plate Maker in the same number of starts and only 2 years with a real QB throwing him the ball, but with the exception of Jerry Rice, no other WR of this era has been clearly better than Rod Smith. His blocking was a huge part of our running game...something you call an "intangible". Take the Crackhead off the Cowboys and he's not in the HOF.

8 1,000 yard seasons equals dominance? There were 19 1,000 yd receivers this year. There were 20 in '05, 23 in '04, 14 in '03, and 22 in '02. It's not a significant number anymore. Keep throwing **** up against the wall, maybe you can find a number of significance in Rod's resume besides his 116 receptions in '01 and his 1600 yds in '00. The two seasons I fully agree he was great in.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I see Zimmerman as a great example of a guy who did his job, did it well, and performed at a high level. One gets the feeling from your post that I am implying he was an unworthy player. Not at all the case. My point was I just cannot see him rising to a level of HOF when there are only a small number of slots and so many great players to sift through.

11 players have been All-Decade twice in NFL history, Zimmerman is one of them. He and Rice are the only two not in the HOF. Zim should have gotten in on the first or second ballot like every other 2-time All-Decade player.

[epicSocialism4tw]

11 players have been All-Decade twice in NFL history, Zimmerman is one of them. He and Rice are the only two not in the HOF. Zim should have gotten in on the first or second ballot like every other 2-time All-Decade player.


When a player is the best in the NFL at his position for the better part of 20 years, he deserves a further look than Zim has gotten for sure.

[footstepsfrom#27]

You MUST be joking. I don't even know where to start with that ...
You're referencing where I said that only Rice was "clearly superior" to Rod. Instead of automatically comparing all these guys to Rod, you should be asking why Irvin is HOF material and most of these guys are not. The NFL has a bias against receivers in the modern era.

You can also start by explaining why the best blocking receiver in the NFL, with 8 1,000 yard seasons to his credit on a team that ran the ball more than any other in the league, and played with a top notch QB for only 2 years of his career...BOTH in which he won Superbowl rings...is NOT on the same plane as any of the guys you mentioned not named Rice or Tim Brown.

Observe:

1) Art Monk- First of all, Monk belongs in the HOF, but suggesting he's "clearly superior" (my criteria) to Rod Smith is ridiculous. He's not even as good as Smith, let alone clearly superior. In 60 PLUS FEWER STARTS, Smith trails Monk by only 90 catches, has over 600 MORE career receiving yards, the exact same number of TD's and 8 1,000 yard seasons to Monk's 5, plus he was a better blocker. Monk leads in rings 3-2, a product of having played 15 years in the league. Based on production and consistency from season to season, there's no question Smith's been better than Monk. Based on longevity and Superbowl rings, plus the sheer number of catches Monk also is a HOF deserving receiver, but no way he's "clearly superior" to Smith.

2) Andre Reed- he's also a HOF deserving player, chiefly because he spent 9 years playing with a HOF QB compared to Rod's 2, but in almost 70 MORE STARTS, Reed has only only 101 more catches, and approximately 1600 more yards, and 4 1,000 yard seasons compared to Smith's 8. His 7 pro bowl invitations, while deserved, are better than Smith only because he's had the advantage of playing on the east coast where the media loves to focus their attention. Of course he also has zero championships...and if Rod plays 2 more years in the 3rd receiver role he'll probably catch Reed in receptions. Reed does have 19 more TD's...Smith probably cuts that in half by the time he's done, and playing with Cutler there's a good chance he passes him in catches and possibly even yardage. How does any of this make Reed "clearly superior" to Rod?

3) Chris Carter- In approximately 62 MORE STARTS, Carter was clearly superior in only one area...his 130 TD's mostly being the product of being great on the goal line. But despite 4 entire seasons actually playing, Carter has only 2500 more receiving yards and 250 more catches, with the same number of 1000 yard seasons as Rod, meaning if Rod plays another couple years those advantages will decline significantly. It helped that his QB's were named Cunningham, McMahon, Moon, Gannon and Culpepper, while other than 2 years with Elway, Rod got Griese, Gus and Plummer...big difference. Carter's biggest years were spent in the pass happy Minnesota Viking offense with a young, motivated and dominating Randy Moss lined up on the other side of the field from him, which is when he put up the really big numbers, while Rod has played his entire career on run first teams. Smith is the superior blocker. No championships for Carter either. Is he superior to Rod? Doubtful...certainly not "clearly" superior. Like Monk and Reed, his career stats are largely due to great longevity and the product of having lots of other talent around him through most of his career. He's been more productive stat wise, but given his team's offenses, the QB's he's played with and the fact he had the same number of 1000 yard seasons in a career lasting 16 years, he's not "clearly superior".

4) Henry Ellard- Despite playing a whopping 17 seasons...almost 5 complete seasons on the playing field more than Rod, Ellard caught 37 balls less than Smith has right now, but benefitted from being in good deepball systems, which accounts for his 2400 more yards, yet he caught only 65 TD's, 3 fewer than Rod has right now, and nobody in their right mind would put him in Smith's class as a blocker. Ellard has only 7 1000 yard seasons to Smith's 8 and his numbers are at least partially the result of having Monk and Gary Sanders with him. He's not "clearly superior" to Rod.

5) Tim Brown- Brown is the only player I'll admit is clearly superior to Rod other than Rice...I forgot him...almost 15,000 yards and 100 TD's...but accomplished over 17 seasons. I'll put him #2 to Rice in his era and leave Rod to fight for #3 with some of the other players on this list. It hardly disqualifies Smith from HOF consideration to say that he wasn't as productive as Rice or Brown though.

6) Marvin Harrison- Almost 150 more catches in only 10 more starts, and 54 more TD's to go with 2500 more yards. Why don't I rank him "clearly superior"? Because his QB is named Peyton Manning and he plays in a pass happy system with a lot of other talent to distract defenses. Put Harrison on the Griese/Gus/Plummer offenses and ask him to cut down 250 pound LB's for the run and go across the middle on 3rd and 8 50 times a year and his 185 pound body would have long since gone down for the count. Different numbers are easily reflected by a completely different offense and the talent around him. He's not clearly superior to Rod.

7) Issac Bruce- Benefitted enormously from the system he was in...Rams offense on turf with deep speed all over the field gave him a platform to post big numbers...still only 37 catches and 12 TD's ahead of Rod despite the inflated numbers from those offensives. Nowhere near the blocker Smith is and he doesn't have 2 rings like Rod does either. His 8 1000 yard seasons in a pass happy system only equal Rod's and only serve to show how great Rod's accomplishment in a run first offense has been since they're equal in that department. Another WR who probably should be in the HOF but he's not "clearly superior" to Rod.

8) Keenan McCardell, Randy Moss and TO...kidding right?

McCardell; good player with 9 more starts than Rod but only 11 more catches, and trails Rod in yardage and TD's, without the rings and not the blocker Smith is.

Moss; Benefitted enormously from the Vikings offense, 7 1000 seasons but his attitude and quitters mentality will probably mean he's lucky to get another one, let alone a Superbowl ring. If he changes his stripes and does a complete 180 he's a HOF inductee some day...a BIG if...clearly not superior to Rod...let alone "clearly superior". He's all about Randy Moss.

TO; This is a joke...7 1000 yard seasons, and other than TD's his numbers aren't much better than Rod's, but his attitude is the very antithesis of what has made Smith great. Starting to slow down now so don't look for any huge stretch run...if he's even playing next year I'll be mildly suprised. Career cancer who posts big numbers but mentioning this guy in the same breath as the HOF is outrageous. He's the very epitome of the word "loser"
So ... WITHOUT MENTIONING CHARACTER: Why should Rod get in ahead of this dozen or so guys?
First of all, it's a mistake NOT to metnion character, which is why you put Moss and TO in there...and why Irvin made it, but here ya go;

Because 1) he posted 8 1000 yard seaons and he didn't benefit from the offense he was in...just the opposite; 2) he's played with poor to average QB's all but 2 years he's been on the field, and 3) he's done it the way no other receiver in NFL history has...Steve Largent is the best comparison and he's in the HOF...42 more starts, fewer catches, more yards, same great work ethic...no rings though...Smith, if he plays 2 more years will have comparable numbers in yardage and get within 20 of his 100 TD's...

Smith is HOF material.

[footstepsfrom#27]

8 1,000 yard seasons equals dominance?
It does when you put up 8 of them.
There were 19 1,000 yd receivers this year. There were 20 in '05, 23 in '04, 14 in '03, and 22 in '02. It's not a significant number anymore. Keep throwing **** up against the wall, maybe you can find a number of significance in Rod's resume besides his 116 receptions in '01 and his 1600 yds in '00. The two seasons I fully agree he was great in.
NFL offenses have changed drastically towards the pass, which is why the 1000 yard club doesn't mean what it once did; with one exception...it means something when you play on an offense that runs the football more than any other in the league and when you play with mediocre QB's.

If 8 1000 yard seasons are meaningless, why are there so few NFL receivers who have done that? Even Harrison, who plays on the COLTS only matches that number.

Keep trying...you sound more and more like Bob.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

It does when you put up 8 of them.

NFL offenses have changed drastically towards the pass, which is why the 1000 yard club doesn't mean what it once did; with one exception...it means something when you play on an offense that runs the football more than any other in the league and when you play with mediocre QB's.

If 8 1000 yard seasons are meaningless, why are there so few NFL receivers who have done that? Even Harrison, who plays on the COLTS only matches that number.

Keep trying...you sound more and more like Bob.

I keep sounding more like Bob? I'm not the one who keeps having to come up withe excuses on why Rod has no individual honors in his career or why his 1,000 yd seasons should count for more. You even admit that it isn't what it used to be, but you also called what Rod did dominating. You're the one has to spin everything in Rod's favor, all I'm doing is talking about reality.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I keep sounding more like Bob? I'm not the one who keeps having to come up withe excuses on why Rod has no individual honors in his career or why his 1,000 yd seasons should count for more. You even admit that it isn't what it used to be, but you also called what Rod did dominating. You're the one has to spin everything in Rod's favor, all I'm doing is talking about reality.
Reality? Reality for you means looking for ways to legitimize the system that everyone on this board knows is flawed and biased. Brilliant logic...the same idiots who voted 1 guy from a franchise with 6 Superbowl trips and 6 HOF players from a team with 1 Superbowl into the HOF is a great measuring stick for truth and accuracy right?

You've yet to answer a single argument.

1) Rod's numbers are better than other NFL WR's who played in the same era and made the HOF.

2) He's one of the most complete WR's in this generation...among the best 2-3 blocking WR's in the game...something you called an "intangible' LOL

3) He got his 8 1000 seasons in a running system, unlike most of the big stat guys ahead of him.

4) He played only 2 years with a great QB.

5) He's got multiple Superbowl rings.

But I guess some moron in New York City who sees maybe 1 Denver game all year knows his true worth. That's your argument.

I take it back...You're not like Bob...you're making Bob look like a Rhodes Scholar.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

and again, all you can do is come up with a list of things that you think matter, when things like individual honors are completely ignored. Those honors are comparisions to his peers, and the people who vote don't think Rod is the best among his peers. Sorry if you don't like that, but that's reality. The people who do the voting don't think Rod is one of the best among his generation. So next time you try to lecture me on reality, try to understand that I am the one operating within it, and you are the one who doesn't like it because it goes counter to what you want to be true.

But continue, the name-calling really strengthens your arugment.

[footstepsfrom#27]

and again, all you can do is come up with a list of things that you think matter
You mean like blocking, posting more 1000 yard seasons than almost any player in the game, winning 2 Superbowl championships, making huge plays in big games, being a huge character guy...yea you're right...none of that really matters...what was I thinking?
when things like individual honors are completely ignored. Those honors are comparisions to his peers, and the people who vote don't think Rod is the best among his peers. Sorry if you don't like that, but that's reality. The people who do the voting don't think Rod is one of the best among his generation.
I'm glad you're so in love with the drunken media fools who don't even watch this team. Do you also support the idea that no other Broncos deserve to be in the HOF or is it just Smith? Lionel Taylor was the most prolific receiver of his generation...he's not in the HOF either...no Gradishar...no Little...no Zimmerman...you're right...the idiots in New York and Chicago know all about our players and how good they are.
So next time you try to lecture me on reality, try to understand that I am the one operating within it, and you are the one who doesn't like it because it goes counter to what you want to be true.
I think you're smoking crack with your pal cokehead Irvin for your reality.
But continue, the name-calling really strengthens your arugment.
You've already been owned on every front.

[-Slap-]

and I'd hoped you understood that All-Pro votes and the Pro Bowl are two entirely different things.

2 years of dominance? If that's the criteria, we should all be leading the charge for TD then.

But let's just base it on stats, that way we don't have to compare Rod to other WRs of this generation.

I know the difference, just as well as I know you're getting your ass smoked in this argument. Like many of the weaker debaters on this board, you pick out some piece of minutiae from a post to deflect attention when you're losing.

[footstepsfrom#27]

The people who do the voting don't think Rod is one of the best among his generation.
Major premise on this thread: the people who do the voting don't know what they're doing.
Hercules Rockefeller's counter argument: The people who vote do know what they're doing.

Guess that settles it then...:rofl:

[-Slap-]

Watching a guy of your caliber and knowledge simply recap Michael Irvin's career as "a guy who pushed off" is ridiculous.

But in my 8 years on boards with you, there are issues and players/coaches that you are simply inflexible about.

I dislike Michael irvin as much as you do, but you take this **** way too personal and I don't. You let your personal disdain for someone cloud you objectivity of that players skills and career.

All you've said on this thread is Michael Irvin committed P.I. How about a more realistic look at his great career?

Not true. I also said he had three real Hall of Famers helping take heat off him - Emmitt, Aikman, Allen. He also had perennial Pro Bowlers like Novacek, Williams and Johnston on that offense.

I know you immediately dismiss all arguments of this kind, otherwise you could never possibly support Lynn Swann with statements like "Chuck noll could ignore him for weeks in the gameplan".

Gosh, must be nice to be on a team so loaded you only have to play in big games.

I also said Michael Irvin had a ridiculously short peak. Eight years of high caliber football and that was it.

Why is Randy 2000-Tackles-in-a-Decade Gradishar getting the shaft again? Because he was only a huge force for ten years?

Okay. Makes sense to me.

You are totally emphatic Michael Irvin is a Hall of Famer and equally emphatic Rod Smith is not. You are every bit as stubborn in your opinions as any Hall of Fame voter or commentator. I think you're way off base here and I've disagreed with you on multiple players over the years.

You were one of the few people I remember blasting Jack Youngblood's election and there's probably not 20 guys who ever strapped on pads who deserve enshrinement more than Jack.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Major premise on this thread: the people who do the voting don't know what they're doing.
Hercules Rockefeller's counter argument: The people who vote do know what they're doing.

Guess that settles it then...:rofl:

Nice try, but that's not my point. Have I ever said they know what they're doing or that I agree with their selections? Nope, sorry. But that's a nice straw man. The point that appears to be completely going over your head everytime I have to post in this thread is that they're still the voters and they're the ones that will decide whether Rod gets in. As of now, they've yet to vote Rod a 1st Team All-Pro or anything that shows they think he's one of the best WRs of this generation.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I know the difference, just as well as I know you're getting your ass smoked in this argument. Like many of the weaker debaters on this board, you pick out some piece of minutiae from a post to deflect attention when you're losing.

Yep, I've gotten utterly smoked in this thread.

Yawn. The voters are idiots is an amazing position to start your argument from. Next time I'll make sure to base my argument on pure emotion instead of pointing out Rod's short-comings among his peers in this generation. b**** all you want about the voters or anything else, not going to change that Rod has yet to be a 1st team All-Pro a single time in his career. I don't care if the guy plays for my favorite team, that's a joke if someone gets in the Hall at any position and not once was thought to have been the best player at his position in the league for a season.

[-Slap-]

I've seen the light, Herc. Like you, I shall bow to the sportswriters' omniscience and stop formulating any opinions of my own.

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/9035/fletcher6jq2.jpg

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I'm glad you're so in love with the drunken media fools who don't even watch this team. Do you also support the idea that no other Broncos deserve to be in the HOF or is it just Smith? Lionel Taylor was the most prolific receiver of his generation...he's not in the HOF either...no Gradishar...no Little...no Zimmerman...you're right...the idiots in New York and Chicago know all about our players and how good they are.

I think you're smoking crack with your pal cokehead Irvin for your reality.

You've already been owned on every front.

God, you are a ****ing idiot.

Have I ever defended Irvin's selection in this thread you retard? No. Now you're just making up **** because you're unable to actually read what has been written. The only point I've ever made about Irvin in this thread deals with your comparison to their numbers and me pointing out that Rod should have more catches since he played in more games. Wow, yep Irvin is my pal after that vigorous defense. I think we'll go smoke some crack together now.

I've also already listed 6 guys in this thread that should get in, so go try to invent arguments somewhere else, it isn't working in this thread.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I've seen the light, Herc. Like you, I shall bow to the sportswriters' omniscience and stop formulating any opinions of my own.

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/9035/fletcher6jq2.jpg

Nice to see that's what you've boiled it down to. I'll make sure in the future I don't have the audacity to say that some Bronco doesn't deserve to be in the HOF. I'll just confine that to the players of the other 31 teams in the NFL.

[footstepsfrom#27]

God, you are a ****ing idiot.

Have I ever defended Irvin's selection in this thread you retard? No. Now you're just making up **** because you're unable to actually read what has been written. The only point I've ever made about Irvin in this thread deals with your comparison to their numbers and me pointing out that Rod should have more catches since he played in more games. Wow, yep Irvin is my pal after that vigorous defense. I think we'll go smoke some crack together now.

I've also already listed 6 guys in this thread that should get in, so go try to invent arguments somewhere else, it isn't working in this thread.
Thought you were the one against name calling...no?

You made up the bit out Rod playing in more games just to suit your argument. Irvin has one more start than he does...159 to 158...because Rod spent his first two years trying to prove he belonged by playing his heart out on special teams...with a grand total of 2 starts in 2 years...just what an UFA expects...while Irvin steps into a starting role as a #1 draft pick. Of course since you were 15 years old at the time you probably don't remember.

So your "logic" that he needed more catches because he was "in more games" is idiotic. Second, I posted numerous examples of other great players with 60 to 70 more starts than Rod whose numbers are nowhere near representative of that increased playing time compared with Smith's. I like how you ignored that completely.

Anybody who thinks blocking is an "intangible", and 8 thousand yard seasons are meaningless has already proven themselves inadequate for this discussion.

The same geniuses who you trust so much about Smith, voted Jim Kelly into the HOF. Kelly had only one all pro season and 2 second team selections...only 4 pro bowls in his career...and no championships...and was never as good as Elway, Marino or Montana in his era. Using your criteria these same writers should not have selected Kelly becuase he didn't have the honors. By comparison Randy Gradishar had 7 pro bowls and was NFL defensive player of the year...easily outdoing Kelly...but no HOF.

But the voters are never wrong.

[B-Love]

Not true. I also said he had three real Hall of Famers helping take heat off him - Emmitt, Aikman, Allen. He also had perennial Pro Bowlers like Novacek, Williams and Johnston on that offense.

I know you immediately dismiss all arguments of this kind, otherwise you could never possibly support Lynn Swann with statements like "Chuck noll could ignore him for weeks in the gameplan".

Gosh, must be nice to be on a team so loaded you only have to play in big games.

I also said Michael Irvin had a ridiculously short peak. Eight years of high caliber football and that was it.

Why is Randy 2000-Tackles-in-a-Decade Gradishar getting the shaft again? Because he was only a huge force for ten years?

Okay. Makes sense to me.

You are totally emphatic Michael Irvin is a Hall of Famer and equally emphatic Rod Smith is not. You are every bit as stubborn in your opinions as any Hall of Fame voter or commentator. I think you're way off base here and I've disagreed with you on multiple players over the years.

You were one of the few people I remember blasting Jack Youngblood's election and there's probably not 20 guys who ever strapped on pads who deserve enshrinement more than Jack.

You're simply wrong on Youngblood, I never would've said that about him. I loved Jack, and the same guy who started the campaign for Jack (Mike Giddings), started it for Randy. So you are just making **** up there. I even gave you the link for Giddings campaign for Jack. I spoke with Mike on a few occasions.

No receiver so consistently had such a weak number 2 on the other side than Irvin did. I don't wanna hear he had so many looks from Aikman because they were doubling the Tight End. I know Novacek was great but no receiver the caliber of Irvin is continually singled up because of a Tight End. That's just silly.

Kelvin Martin?? Anthony Miller?? Alvin Harper couldn't stay employed by the Buccaneers?? Kevin Williams?? Irvin was constantly doubled in obvious passing situations, and few Receivers I can think of dominated on 3rd and 8 like Irvin did.

I can't think of a receiver on a Championship team, catching a more disproportionate percentage of a teams wideout catches, than Irvin.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1995.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1992.htm

Irvin was dominant in most of his routes and had great hands. Irvin was also considered a top 3 WR talent when surveys of the NFL's GM's and scouts were conducted. And for multiple years in a row!

Rod was never held in that regard by the GM/Scout types around the league. And he also was synonymous was "mediocre hands" for a good 4-5 year period. Rod is a favorite of mine, but he spent alot of years whiffing on alot of catchable footballs.

I am not "emphatic" about him not being an HOF'er, but I do consider him a "just miss" guy. Had Rod been able to put together a few more dominant seasons, he would be a possibility.

[footstepsfrom#27]

You're simply wrong on Youngblood, I never would've said that about him. I loved Jack, and the same guy who started the campaign for Jack (Mike Giddings), started it for Randy. So you are just making **** up there. I even gave you the link for Giddings campaign for Jack. I spoke with Mike on a few occasions.

No receiver so consistently had such a weak number 2 on the other side than Irvin did. I don't wanna hear he had so many looks from Aikman because they were doubling the Tight End. I know Novacek was great but no receiver the caliber of Irvin is continually singled up because of a Tight End. That's just silly.

Kelvin Martin?? Anthony Miller?? Alvin Harper couldn't stay employed by the Buccaneers?? Kevin Williams?? Irvin was constantly doubled in obvious passing situations, and few Receivers I can think of dominated on 3rd and 8 like Irvin did.

I can't think of a receiver on a Championship team, catching a more disproportionate percentage of a teams wideout catches, than Irvin.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1995.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1992.htm

Irvin was dominant in most of his routes and had great hands. Irvin was also considered a top 3 WR talent when surveys of the NFL's GM's and scouts were conducted. And for multiple years in a row!

Rod was never held in that regard by the GM/Scout types around the league. And he also was synonymous was "mediocre hands" for a good 4-5 year period. Rod is a favorite of mine, but he spent alot of years whiffing on alot of catchable footballs.

I am not "emphatic" about him not being an HOF'er, but I do consider him a "just miss" guy. Had Rod been able to put together a few more dominant seasons, he would be a possibility.[/QUOTE]
Rod had bad hands 5 years into his career? That's just crazy...absolute nonsense. His 2 Superbowl seasons were his 3rd and 4th in the league. He rang up 156 catches, 2300 yards, 18 TD's and 114 first downs...think about that...132 of his 156 catches were either TD's or first downs...so how many balls could he have wiffed on? I remember numerous great catches he had, especially the monster he had against KC on the road on a deep ball where he climbed the ladder and outdueled 2 Chief's defenders, one handing it on the way down.

Rod Smith wasn't the flashy Prima Donna guy with the end zone gyrations and the thuggish attitude, but as a complete football player and a human being he's miles ahead of Irvin.

[footstepsfrom#27]

No receiver so consistently had such a weak number 2 on the other side than Irvin did. I don't wanna hear he had so many looks from Aikman because they were doubling the Tight End. I know Novacek was great but no receiver the caliber of Irvin is continually singled up because of a Tight End. That's just silly.
The link to the '95 Cowboys stat shows that the other starters on offense, Smith, Johnston, Novacek and Williams accounted for 192 catches and nearly 2000 yards receiving. Considering he also had one of the NFL's most accurate passers and a monstrous offensive line to go along with the leading rusher in NFL history, I'd say he had plenty of help. Anthony Miller caught 46 the year he played in Dallas BTW...

[BroncoBuff]

8) Keenan McCardell, Randy Moss and TO...kidding right?
McCardell; good player with 9 more starts than Rod but only 11 more catches, and trails Rod in yardage and TD's, without the rings and not the blocker Smith is.
Moss; Benefitted enormously from the Vikings offense, 7 1000 seasons but his attitude and quitters mentality will probably mean he's lucky to get another one, let alone a Superbowl ring. If he changes his stripes and does a complete 180 he's a HOF inductee some day...a BIG if...clearly not superior to Rod...let alone "clearly superior". He's all about Randy Moss.
TO; This is a joke...7 1000 yard seasons, and other than TD's his numbers aren't much better than Rod's, but his attitude is the very antithesis of what has made Smith great. Starting to slow down now so don't look for any huge stretch run...if he's even playing next year I'll be mildly suprised. Career cancer who posts big numbers but mentioning this guy in the same breath as the HOF is outrageous. He's the very epitome of the word "loser"
Not kidding.

McCardell:
McCardell "less yards" than Rod?! Yeah, just 110 less!
McCardell "fewer TDs" than Rod?! Yeah, but just 6 fewer!
No rings for McCardell - correct, but he could easily still get one with the Bolts. And please note that it appears McCardell has a lot more gas in his tank that Rod.

Terrell Owens:
Kinda sad here footsteps ... you said his numbers are "not much better" than Rod's? Better is better. And besides, he has several years left in his tank, no doubt. A lot will depend on who Jerry Jones hires ... but TO easily has one or two more monster years left if he cools it on the crazy stuff ...

Randy Moss:
I hate him, but I am nothing if not honest: I think he's the 2nd best WR who ever played. He's 4 years younger than Rod, and for heaven's sake - look at the numbers! And you must be kidding about "benefited form the Vikings offense" argument. He played across from a HOF WR! A guy who "all he did was catch touchdowns"

I hate him too, but get real!:
Randy Moss
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/7714/mossuk7.jpg


And BTW - as far as Moss and TO, you must've missed that I scoffed (gad!) at their mention ... so please don't paint me as their cheerleader. I hate both of them personally. I am awed by their skills only.


First of all, it's a mistake NOT to metnion character, and why Irvin made it, but here ya go;
Because 1) he posted 8 1000 yard seaons and he didn't benefit from the offense he was in...just the opposite; 2) he's played with poor to average QB's all but 2 years he's been on the field, and 3) he's done it the way no other receiver in NFL history has...Steve Largent is the best comparison and he's in the HOF...42 more starts, fewer catches, more yards, same great work ethic...no rings though...Smith, if he plays 2 more years will have comparable numbers in yardage and get within 20 of his 100 TD's...
Smith is HOF material.
I'm not AGAINST mentioning character like you imply ... it's just that I've had "character arguments" out the wazoo in this thread - I'll give you character!

But we're not arguing anymore, because I now agree Rod is HOF material! This thread convinced me, based upon side-by-side comparison of Rod's numbers to Irvin's numbers (posted on the last page). If the HOF puts Irvin in, Rod is also deserving. Precedent is precedent, and your arguments about just 2 years with a top-flite QB (it was 4 actually, but good point anyway), and playing in the most run-oriented offense in the league are excellent arguments (also add "played during the peak of the greatest receiving TE ever.")(BTW - the 'best blocker' point is not worth much imo)

Largent got in because he was at the crest of the passing-era wave, and b/c he was #1 all-time upon retirement, so he should not be the precedent. But using the IRIN PRECEDENT logic - means that many, many more receivers are deserving. The HOF better add another wing to the building with Michael Irvin there.

And your "attacks" on the other WRs I mentioned are more like agreements with my points ... saying "just a few more than Rod," is an argument FOR the guy, not against him (above).



I NOW AGREE ... that based upon the "Irvin Precedent," Rod should get into the Hall of Fame.

I'm glad that's settled. :approve:

[footstepsfrom#27]

Cool...I'm glad we agree...but I still want to address a couple things you're saying here before wrapping this up...
But we're not arguing anymore, because I now agree Rod is HOF material! This thread convinced me, based upon side-by-side comparison of Rod's numbers to Irvin's numbers (posted on the last page). If the HOF puts Irvin in, Rod is also deserving. Precedent is precedent, and your arguments about just 2 years with a top-flite QB (it was 4 actually, but good point anyway), and playing in the most run-oriented offense in the league are excellent arguments (also add "played during the peak of the greatest receiving TE ever.")(BTW - the 'best blocker' point is not worth much imo)
First of all, Rod was hardly on the field for 2 of Elway's seasons in '95 and '96. He got only 2 starts as a WR so you can't say he played 4 seasons with John. In '95 he caught 6 passes...Anthony Miller caught 59 for almost 1100 yards and 14 TD's...Eddie Mack and Mike Pritchard were the #2 and #3 receivers...even old Vance Johnson had 12 catches. In '96 he also had only 1 start, though he got into a few games with 16 catches...same as Mike Sherard and 1 more than Dwayne Carswell. Miller again was the #1 and Eddie Mac #2...Rod was the 4th guy. I'm measuring actual games he started, not just the fact he held a roster spot for 2 years while he fought to make the team.

Second, the criteria I mentioned in comparing him to all the guys on that list were that only 1...actually I now concede 2 (Tim Brown)...were "CLEARLY SUPERIOR" to Rod. If some of these guys have similar numbers or greater numbers it's largely due to the offenses they played in, the talent around them, and the greater number of starts. I still only see 2 "CLEARLY SUPERIOR" WR's on the list...a list of potential HOF WR's. And NO...TO does NOT make the HOF...it's not all about numbers...he actually costs his team victories, and that negates him from consideration. HOF consideration should be based on how much you do to help your team win championships...and TO's contribution is to KEEP his team from winning.

Finally, talking about WR's that can block is usually like asking which 3rd grader is the toughest...who cares? But that's NOT true in Denver. Smith and Eddie Mac were vital parts of the blocking system that has kept Denver #1 in the NFL in rushing. In Denver receivers MUST be able to block down on LB's, seal backside pursuit and do what receivers on other teams can't or won't do. TD used to comment that Rod and Eddie were critical to his success. The Packers even stated after the Superbowl loss to Denver that they had huge problems with Denver's receivers blocking them in the running game. Their defensive key was all pro safety Leroy Butler who was totaly exterminated by Smith and Eddie...and was credited as the primary reason we ran up and down the field on them. So the point is that Smith's blocking is not just an afterthought...it's part of what Shanahan has stated his receivers MUST be able to do to make this running game work.

Shall we talk about Lionel Taylor now? ;D

[Old Dude]

Just three things to say.

1. Sucks that cokehead made it in.
2. Sucks that Zimm didn't.
3. Congrats to Gene Hickerson. I saw him play many times and he was a friggin' beast. Certainly as good as any lineman of his era and he maintained that level of play for a very long time. I hated the Browns back in those days (and still do) and I celebrated when that SOB finally retired. His induction was long overdue.

[dbfan21]

Read my mind Meck - I was already scouting plane tickets. Guess we'll have to wait until next year.

Hopefully it's a double dipper with TD and Zim, though if the HOF has snubbed them once, I don't see why multiple Broncos would get it.

Dream for Class of 2008: Zim, TD, Steve & Randy - make it an all Broncos weekend

That would be a dream come true! Nice post, BBMan!!

[bendog]

I don't have any issue with Zim not going in before Bruce Mathews. Mathews is the best olineman since Hannah and Munoz. What concerns me is that the media may play up Bob Kutchenberg in the future.

[-Slap-]

You're simply wrong on Youngblood, I never would've said that about him. I loved Jack, and the same guy who started the campaign for Jack (Mike Giddings), started it for Randy. So you are just making **** up there. I even gave you the link for Giddings campaign for Jack. I spoke with Mike on a few occasions.

No receiver so consistently had such a weak number 2 on the other side than Irvin did. I don't wanna hear he had so many looks from Aikman because they were doubling the Tight End. I know Novacek was great but no receiver the caliber of Irvin is continually singled up because of a Tight End. That's just silly.

Kelvin Martin?? Anthony Miller?? Alvin Harper couldn't stay employed by the Buccaneers?? Kevin Williams?? Irvin was constantly doubled in obvious passing situations, and few Receivers I can think of dominated on 3rd and 8 like Irvin did.

I can't think of a receiver on a Championship team, catching a more disproportionate percentage of a teams wideout catches, than Irvin.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1995.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal1992.htm

Irvin was dominant in most of his routes and had great hands. Irvin was also considered a top 3 WR talent when surveys of the NFL's GM's and scouts were conducted. And for multiple years in a row!

Rod was never held in that regard by the GM/Scout types around the league. And he also was synonymous was "mediocre hands" for a good 4-5 year period. Rod is a favorite of mine, but he spent alot of years whiffing on alot of catchable footballs.

I am not "emphatic" about him not being an HOF'er, but I do consider him a "just miss" guy. Had Rod been able to put together a few more dominant seasons, he would be a possibility.

I was sure you dismissed Youngblood as undeserving, but I guess I was mistaken. My bad.

The disparity you're pointing out between Irvin and his number two receivers is not that uncommon at all, especially when a team has one of best receiving tight ends in football history like Jay Novacek as an integral part of the attack. I think he probably converted at least as many 3rd and eights as Irvin.

Thanks for bringing up Alvin Harper because you really kind of prove my point. He was averaging over 20 yards a catch in Dallas because he was the deep threat on the most balanced offense in football. When he got to Tampa, he couldn't catch a freaking cold.