Malaysia slowly strangled by islam

[yavoon]

which is of course a religious of peace, tolerance, goodness, virtue, etc....u get the idea.


Thomas Fuller International Herald Tribune

Published: August 28, 2006


KUALA LUMPUR 'The idea of a secular state is dead in Malaysia," says Farish
Noor, a Malaysian scholar who specializes in politics and Islam. "An Islamic
society is already on the cards. The question is what kind of Islamic
society this will be."

It is hard to square this view with a drive through modern Kuala Lumpur, its
downtown bars and nightclubs not exactly the symbols of a budding theocracy.
Yet as Malaysia marks 49 years of independence from Britain on Thursday,
lurking behind a cosmopolitan facade is a tense and divisive battle over the
country's future.

Those who want to maintain the country's secular roots are fighting what
they call creeping Islamicization. Muslim women who at the time of
independence often wore silky, tight-fitting outfits today do not leave the
house without a head scarf, which is now also required for female police
officers of all religions during official functions.

Muslim prayers are piped into the loudspeakers of government offices in the
new administrative capital, Putrajaya. And Islamic police officers routinely
arrest unmarried couples for "close proximity."

"I see the writing on the wall," said Ivy Josiah, the director of the
Women's Aid Organization, a group that lobbies the government on women's
issues. "It's only a matter of time before Malaysia becomes another Taliban
state."

Malaysia, a multiracial country where just over half the population of 26
million is Muslim, is testing the limits of compatibility between
traditional Muslim beliefs and Western- style democracy.

In Europe, the threat of terrorism posed by disaffected Muslims has spurred
religious leaders and politicians to wonder whether there is a better way to
assimilate Muslim and Western traditions. The experience of Malaysia appears
to show that there is no easy solution, even after five decades of trying.

In recent years, a number of high- profile court cases have highlighted the
clash between Muslim and secular laws, but none so much as the lawsuit
brought by Lina Joy, a computer saleswoman, who is challenging the Malaysian
government over its refusal to officially acknowledge her conversion from
Islam to Christianity. After two lower courts ruled for the government, Joy
awaits a judgment from the country's highest court.

The case has aggravated already mistrustful relations between Muslim,
Christian and Hindu communities. It has led to death threats against one
prominent lawyer, large protest gatherings and a ban by the government on
any further public debate. At the heart of the case is the fundamental
question of which is supreme in Malaysia: Muslim law or the country's
secular Constitution.

Malaysia has a hybrid legal system that incorporates both Islamic and civil
laws for personal and family matters: Muslims are governed by religious laws
against drinking, eating during the daylight hours of Ramadan and having
close proximity between unmarried women and men. Marriages, divorces,
funerals, and inheritance are governed by Islamic laws.

For non-Muslims - Christians, Buddhists, Hindus and Sikhs - civil laws
apply. But the hybrid system is now in crisis and the multiracial fabric
could fray.

Critics complain of Islamic influence in day-to-day governance. When the
government recently debated whether free needles should be distributed to
drug addicts, Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi said he would first check
with the Muslim authorities for guidance on whether this followed Islamic
principles.

"You are seeing worldwide a common thing happening," said Malik Imtiaz
Sarwar, a Muslim lawyer. "Muslims are defining themselves by their religion
instead of their country." Malik recently asked for police protection after
receiving death threats for his role in the Lina Joy case: he submitted a
brief in defense of Joy's right to convert.

"Lina Joy is important because it's finally brought to light the tensions
that exist between those who favor an Islamic state and those who believe in
the universal values entrenched in the Constitution," Malik said in an
interview.

Lawyers who back the government's position in the case say Muslims in
Malaysia are subject to Islamic law. "We are not saying you do not have any
choice of religion. But if you want to convert out you must do so in the
Islamic court," said Zulkifli Noordin, a lawyer who submitted a brief in
support of the government's position.

In reality, converting out of Islam is frowned upon if not actively
discouraged in Malaysia. Only one state, Negri Sembilan, allows apostasy and
usually after ordering the person through a lengthy rehabilitation program -
an attempt to keep them from converting.

Zulkifli says 18 people have successfully left the faith, although many
others are thought to have done so unofficially. In the country's most
conservative state, Kelantan, local laws call for the death penalty for
apostates. The law has not yet been applied.

The context of the tensions in the Lina Joy case is a Muslim community that
says it feels under siege and threatened by a thriving evangelical Christian
movement. Newspapers cite wild estimates of mass conversions if Lina Joy
wins her case and call for a strengthening of religious law.

Over the past 30 years, the percentage of people who call themselves
Christians has doubled to 10 percent, according to Wong Kim Kong, secretary
general of the National Evangelical Christian Fellowship. Wong says the
growth in the church has come from Christians "sharing their faith in a very
natural way."

"People experience God and naturally tell people about God," Wong said. "We
don't have missionaries coming from overseas and doing that kind of work. No
more." Josiah, the director of the Women's Aid Organization, says the most
regrettable consequence of the Lina Joy case and other inter-religious
disputes that preceded it is the strain it is placing on personal
interaction between people of different ethnic groups.

"The whole thing about being multicultural, multiethnic is not just a
tourist attraction," Josiah said. "We live it and breathe it."

[yavoon]

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21256605-1702,00.html

secret police to catch ppl. ALL HAIL MODERATE ISLAM!

[N.O.Bronco]

LOL you cant make an argument in the other thread or provide the links asked. So instead of owning up to it you try and bait me into the fight you want me in, right. Are you gonna tell me what angle i should fight from like last time too? and what position to take? and who to defend?

let me read this stuff and then ill see if this warrants response before i go to sleep.

[N.O.Bronco]

ok so extreme religious people are taking over the government, wow never saw that coming, religion historically taking over and doing wrong evil things, thats never happened, my god(sarcasm off). what does this have to do with moderate muslims now? The extremist wing is flexing its muscle, this really is no different then anything else historically when religion and state intertwine this way. so whats the point of this?

[Atlas]

There is going to be a huge battle between the West and the Muslim states in the not to distant future.

The CIA should start opperations immediatley in Malaysia to keep the Muslims from taking over. Bribing law makers, starting pro christian and anti-Muslim propaganda anything they can do. The battle needs to start now in Asia and Africa for the minds of their people.

[yavoon]

There is going to be a huge battle between the West and the Muslim states in the not to distant future.

The CIA should start opperations immediatley in Malaysia to keep the Muslims from taking over. Bribing law makers, starting pro christian and anti-Muslim propaganda anything they can do. The battle needs to start now in Asia and Africa for the minds of their people.

have the muslims not taken over? all ethnic malays are by law muslims, conversion is not allowed(though it is contested in court periodically).

but yes I agree that the war with freedom of speech/religion, equality under the law vs islamic sharia has started. even in places like canada and britain they are trying to setup sharia courts.

[N.O.Bronco]

There is going to be a huge battle between the West and the Muslim states in the not to distant future.

The CIA should start opperations immediatley in Malaysia to keep the Muslims from taking over. Bribing law makers, starting pro christian and anti-Muslim propaganda anything they can do. The battle needs to start now in Asia and Africa for the minds of their people.

Is this a joke or...cause if not, wow!! religious war is the anwser huh?

[Atlas]

you might think it's funny but I don't think seeing all of Asia and Africa falling under The Muslim law funny at all.

[yavoon]

to possibly broaden the topic a little, here is an example from britain as to what fear of islam can do.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=411846&in_page_id=1770

In one of a series of discussions, executives were asked to rule on how they would react if the controversial comedian Sacha Baron Cohen
) known for his offensive characters Ali G and Borat - was a guest on the programme Room 101.

On the show, celebrities are invited to throw their pet hates into a dustbin and it was imagined that Baron Cohen chose some kosher food, the Archbishop of Canterbury, a Bible and the Koran.

Nearly everyone at the summit, including the show's actual producer and the BBC's head of drama, Alan Yentob, agreed they could all be thrown into the bin, except the Koran for fear of offending Muslims.

just a small example of islam's reach.

[Atlas]

to possibly broaden the topic a little, here is an example from britain as to what fear of islam can do.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=411846&in_page_id=1770

In one of a series of discussions, executives were asked to rule on how they would react if the controversial comedian Sacha Baron Cohen
) known for his offensive characters Ali G and Borat - was a guest on the programme Room 101.

On the show, celebrities are invited to throw their pet hates into a dustbin and it was imagined that Baron Cohen chose some kosher food, the Archbishop of Canterbury, a Bible and the Koran.

Nearly everyone at the summit, including the show's actual producer and the BBC's head of drama, Alan Yentob, agreed they could all be thrown into the bin, except the Koran for fear of offending Muslims.

just a small example of islam's reach.

Someone here... Rascal maybe had a picture of "Allah" as his avatar and Taco made him take it down. Radical Muslims have everyone scared. With good reason, they'll cut your friggin head off.

[yavoon]

Someone here... Rascal maybe had a picture of "Allah" and Taco made him take it down. Radical Muslims have everyone scared. With good reason, they'll cut your friggin head off.

what did allah look like? and yah the whole world is scared, good reason to be scared. like, I believe a gay dutch artist(possibly wrong here) said, "I'm only good at enjoying freedom, I know nothing of defending it."

[Atlas]

what did allah look like? and yah the whole world is scared, good reason to be scared. like, I believe a gay dutch artist(possibly wrong here) said, "I'm only good at enjoying freedom, I know nothing of defending it."


http://www.freethunk.net/clipart_mohammed/mohammedmirrorC.gif
something like this

[N.O.Bronco]

you might think it's funny but I don't think seeing all of Asia and Africa falling under The Muslim law funny at all.

so let me start with a few questions. Are all muslims bad?

Why is christianity the anwser over islam?

What gives you the idea all of africa and asia is gonna turn muslim? I mean north korea has kim jong, japan is japan and china doesnt even allow religion right now(although there laxing slightly now)

have you ever read up on the the french and their attempt to indoctrine the vietnamesse into chrisitianity? or any other religious war, perhaps the crusades? imagine that with nukes.

I understand the premise. fanaticals are fanatic and do fanatic things. But to approach as you seem to hint, that it needs to be a war on their religion as opposed to just the extemist element, is pretty, well scary. you start secretlly sending out anti islam or muslim propaganda(since thats actually the people and well that is kinda racist) you are gonna turn every ally in the middle east we have and every single muslim in every country into a martyr and jihaddist overnight. not to mention, piss off the rest of the world just that much more and hate us even further.

[Atlas]

Actually this was the picture he used.
http://www.nbr.co.nz/images/Mohammed_cartoon.jpg

that is deemed offensive to radical muslims and they will kill you because of it.

[yavoon]

Actually this was the picture he used.
http://www.nbr.co.nz/images/Mohammed_cartoon.jpg

that is deemed offensive to radical muslims and they will kill you because of it.

thats doubly blasphemous. first, it depicts mohammed, not allowed. and then it insults him, also not allowed.

fortunately though they can only chop ur head off once.

[Atlas]

so let me start with a few questions. Are all muslims bad?

Why is christianity the anwser over islam?

What gives you the idea all of africa and asia is gonna turn muslim? I mean north korea has kim jong, japan is japan and china doesnt even allow religion right now(although there laxing slightly now)

have you ever read up on the the french and their attempt to indoctrine the vietnamesse into chrisitianity? or any other religious war, perhaps the crusades? imagine that with nukes.

I understand the the premise. fanaticals are fanatic and do fanatic things. But to approach as you seem to hint, that it needs to be a war on their religion as opposed to just the extemist element, is pretty, well scary. you start secretlly sending out anti islam or muslim propaganda(since thats actually the people and well that is kinda racist) you are gonna turn every ally in the middle east we have and every single muslim in every country into a martyr and jihaddist overnight. not to mention, piss off the rest of the world just that much more and hate us even further.

Personally, I don't have a use for Christianity or Islam. I will admit

Secondly, I know what the agenda is for radical Islam.
1. It's to convert the whole world to Islam
2. It's to take over the world
3. To kill non believers.

You don't understand that they are already at war with the U.S. and every other Western nation that loves freedom. The greatest threat to peace in the world is radical Islam. Well, that and George Bush... but that is another topic.

[Atlas]

Here is a picture of mohammed. It is deemed bad because it shows that he clearly is going bald.
http://www.magixl.com/caric./starsb/mohammed.gif

[N.O.Bronco]

Personally, I don't have a use for Christianity or Islam. I will admit

Secondly, I know what the agenda is for radical Islam.
1. It's to convert the whole world to Islam
2. It's to take over the world
3. To kill non believers.
You don't understand that they are already at war with the U.S. and every other Western nation that loves freedom. The greatest threat to peace in the world is radical Islam. Well, that and George Bush... but that is another topic.

and i dont disagree with you but your original post hints at making this a religious war. Also that all muslims are this way(radical). How can christianity filled, anti-MUSLIM and/or ISLAM propaganda help unhinge the radicalism?

the irony in the bold part is uncanny. basically your first post was hinting at converting muslims to christianity and warring with those not like us ( us being western christian nations) which will lead to killing their non-beleivers. So who are the radicals now? radical islam and....? if thats your definition of a radical dare i say.... you?

[yavoon]

the hate of islam can even reach something as brash as south park:

It has come out via AP television writer David Bauder that Comedy Central did in fact, citing safety concerns, opt to censor the image of Muhammad, a situation that was satirized in "Cartoon Wars Part II". Furthermore, while the channel refused to broadcast an image of Muhammad, Comedy Central opted not to censor images of Christ, the president and the American flag being defecated upon.

"That's where we kind of agree with some of the people who've criticized our show," Stone says. "Because it really is open season on Jesus. We can do whatever we want to Jesus, and we have. We've had him say bad words. We've had him shoot a gun. We've had him kill people. We can do whatever we want. But Mohammed, we couldn't just show a simple image."

[N.O.Bronco]

the hate of islam can even reach something as brash as south park:

It has come out via AP television writer David Bauder that Comedy Central did in fact, citing safety concerns, opt to censor the image of Muhammad, a situation that was satirized in "Cartoon Wars Part II". Furthermore, while the channel refused to broadcast an image of Muhammad, Comedy Central opted not to censor images of Christ, the president and the American flag being defecated upon.

actually that was a creative decision by trey and matt. Go watch the super best friends episode! where one of the superheroes is Muhammad, still plays on regular rotation and shows his face numerous times in the episode.

[Atlas]

and i dont disagree with you but your original post hints at making this a religious war. Also that all muslims are this way(radical). How can christianity filled, anti-MUSLIM and/or ISLAM propaganda help unhinge the radicalism?

the irony in the bold part is uncanny. basically your first post was hinting at converting muslims to christianity and warring with those not like us ( us being western christian nations) which will lead to killing their non-beleivers. So who are the radicals now? radical islam and....? if thats your definition of a radical dare i say.... you?

Yeah that's basically what I'm saying. Islam the religion is flawed more than other religions. It is not a religion of peace which moderate Muslims always say. You have no clue but I'm saying something needs to be done to stop Islam from spreading. It's the greatest threat to us. Take that any way you want.

[Atlas]

actually that was a creative decision by trey and matt. Go watch the super best friends episode! where one of the superheroes is Muhammad, still plays on regular rotation and shows his face numerous times in the episode.


That was not a creative decision by Trey and Matt. Comedy Central execs wouldn't let them show it.

As far as your superfriends story goes I have no idea. The Superfriends was made in the 60's and 70's. This whole image has been a recent controversy. There are numerous examples of the picture of Mohammed before the Radicals starting cutting off people's heads.

Here is an early picture from Mulsim country Turkey. Funny they had no problem with this pic.
http://www.picturesfromturkey.com/images/47079%20Turkey%20Turkie%20Painting%20Of%20The%20Pr ophet%20Mohammed%20Istanbul.jpg

[N.O.Bronco]

Yeah that's basically what I'm saying. Islam the religion is flawed more than other religions. It is not a religion of peace which moderate Muslims always say. You have no clue but I'm saying something needs to be done to stop Islam from spreading. It's the greatest threat to us. Take that any way you want.

really and christianity is full of peace, more flawed huh


09 June 2006
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?

Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran? Is there a way to objectively answer such a question?

Well, it wouldn't be easy. But it is possible to compare the amount of cruelty and violence in the two books.

Here is a summary of the highlighted verses in the SAB and SAQ. Number of Cruel or Violent Passages
Bible 857
Quran 494


So the Bible has more cruel or violent passages as the Quran. But the Bible is a much bigger book. How do they compare when size is taken into account?

Violence and Cruelty Total verses Percent
Bible 857 31173 2.75
Quran 494 6236 7.92


When expressed as a percentage of cruel or violent verses (at least as marked in the SAB/Q), the Quran has nearly three times that of the Bible. (7.92 vs. 2.75%)* Of course this analysis does not consider the extent of the cruelty in the marked passages. And that is an important consideration. Is Numbers 31:14-18, for example, more cruel than Quran 5:34? That is something that each person must decide.

A good argument could be made that either book is the most violent and cruel book ever written. The award would go to one or the other, for neither has any close competitors. It is frightening to think that more than half of the world's population believes in one or the other.

Posted by Steve Wells at 6/09/2006

Labels: Bible, Cruelty, Quran, violence

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

maybe just maybe your thinking about the problem and the approach to it is flawed. Maybe its other things like the fact that historically the poorer a christian or muslim nation the easier they grasp to fundamentalist beliefs or radical leaders. Or that the extremists cause fear into the non-extremes and that the problem lies with dealing with the people not the religion as a whole to solve it. Maybe countries not providing maslows basic needs makes many grasp to those that claim they will(extremists). but probably not, lets just kill all muslims before they convert us.

[N.O.Bronco]

That was not a creative decision by Trey and Matt. Comedy Central execs wouldn't let them show it.

As far as your superfriends story goes I have no idea. The Superfriends was made in the 60's and 70's. This whole image has been a recent controversy. There are numerous examples of the picture of Mohammed before the Radicals starting cutting off people's heads.

It was a south park episode. and it shows very clearly Muhammads face multiple times, and it still is on rotation. In fact a few months back they played back to back cartoon wars and the superfriends league epiode during a mini-marathon, so yes i think it was a creative decision to add to their story and message.

[Atlas]

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/617/362/320/Mohammed_s_Big_Movie.0.jpg

[Atlas]

really and christianity is full of peace, more flawed huh


09 June 2006
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?

Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran? Is there a way to objectively answer such a question?

Well, it wouldn't be easy. But it is possible to compare the amount of cruelty and violence in the two books.

Here is a summary of the highlighted verses in the SAB and SAQ. Number of Cruel or Violent Passages
Bible 857
Quran 494


So the Bible has more cruel or violent passages as the Quran. But the Bible is a much bigger book. How do they compare when size is taken into account?

Violence and Cruelty Total verses Percent
Bible 857 31173 2.75
Quran 494 6236 7.92


When expressed as a percentage of cruel or violent verses (at least as marked in the SAB/Q), the Quran has nearly three times that of the Bible. (7.92 vs. 2.75%)* Of course this analysis does not consider the extent of the cruelty in the marked passages. And that is an important consideration. Is Numbers 31:14-18, for example, more cruel than Quran 5:34? That is something that each person must decide.

A good argument could be made that either book is the most violent and cruel book ever written. The award would go to one or the other, for neither has any close competitors. It is frightening to think that more than half of the world's population believes in one or the other.

Posted by Steve Wells at 6/09/2006

Labels: Bible, Cruelty, Quran, violence

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

maybe just maybe your thinking about the problem and the approach to it is flawed. Maybe its other things like the fact that historically the poorer a christian or muslim nation the easier they grasp to fundamentalist beliefs or radical leaders. Or that the extremists cause fear into the non-extremes and that the problem lies with dealing with the people not the religion as a whole to solve it. Maybe not providing maslows basic needs makes many grasp to those that claim they will. but probably not, lets just kill all muslims before they convert us.

Dude I agree. More people have been killed from religion more than any other reason. If it was up to me I would do away with all religion. I mean praying to some kind old man that lives in the clouds doesn't really strike me as rational.

What I am saying is that Radical Islam wants to take over the world at any cost. We can deal with it now or we can deal with it later.

I don't understand what your point is with showing me cases where Mohammed has appeared. That is really irrelavent. I'm not sure what your point is.

[yavoon]

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/617/362/320/Mohammed_s_Big_Movie.0.jpg

that reminds me. year of the pig in asia.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,246709,00.html

no1 can claim islam can't throw its weight around.

[Atlas]

Hmmmm... what do radical Muslims want????

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o20/speardog/Anti_UAC_protesters_feb1_raid_lrg.jpg

[N.O.Bronco]

Dude I agree. More people have been killed from religion more than any other reason. If it was up to me I would do away with all religion. I mean praying to some kind old man that lives in the clouds doesn't really strike me as rational.

What I am saying is that Radical Islam wants to take over the world at any cost. We can deal with it now or we can deal with it later.

I don't understand what your point is with showing me cases where Mohammed has appeared. That is really irrelavent. I'm not sure what your point is.

the Muhammed point was in response to yavoon and your response.

Of course radical islam wants to convert everyone, just as radical evangelicals do too, or catholics. All religions goals are to convert everyone to their faith.

my issue was with your approach to the problem of the radical terrorists and muslims and what appeared to be almost a racist feeling toward all muslims are at least a misunderstanding of them. I dont think there is any rational non-radical being on the planet that doesnt want violent radicalism gone islam or other. My problem was you seemd to think to get rid of it we needed to engage in radicalism too. which is really prepostorus cause those suggestions by all historical and logical accounts would only exasorbate the problem further and probably create even more unimaginable problems.

I think were on the same page just i found flaw with your approach, and wanted to understand your view on the average muslim, cause i felt you infered average muslim=extremist jihad lover, thats all.

[Atlas]

Pretty much what all radical Muslims think

Top Iran general hopes to avenge Muslim deaths


’I ask God to arouse the dignity of Muslims and destroy America, Israel and their associates,’ says General Safavi.

SoCals link: http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://static.flickr.com/25/101409011_7e7286d2ef_m.jpg&imgrefurl=http://pointriderrepublican.typepad.com/pr/2006/07/index.html&h=240&w=146&sz=21&hl=en&start=14&tbnid=ZvB_FdLBK6TjgM:&tbnh=110&tbnw=67&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dradical%2Bislam,%2Bmuslim%26gbv%3D2%2 6svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG


TEHRAN - The head of Iran's Revolutionary Guards said Sunday he hoped the Islamic republic could one day "avenge the blood of innocent people in Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq and Afghanistan".


"We have to keep this sacred hatred of the enemies of Islam alive in our hearts until the time of revenge comes," General Yahya Rahim Safavi was quoted as saying by the semi-official Fars news agency.


"I hope our nation can one day avenge the blood of innocent people in Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq and Afghanistan," he said, adding: "I ask God to arouse the dignity of Muslims and destroy America, Israel and their associates."


His comments came the day of an Israeli strike that killed 52 people - more than half of them children - in the village of Qana, the deadliest attack in its near three-week offensive against Lebanon.


"I ask God that the crimes and atrocities of Zionists hasten the annihilation of this regime. Hezbollah and Lebanese people are invincible and this cancerous tumor... should die," he added, calling on "clerical leaders in the Islamic world (to) clarify the duty of Muslims against Israel."


The Revolutionary Guards Corps was set up in the wake of the 1979 revolution to defend the Islamic republic from "internal and external threats" and played a leading role in the 1980-88 war with Iraq. It is believed to number several hundred thousand troops.


The force is now one of Iran's most powerful institutions, and under direct command of the supreme leader.


Since Israel launched its war on Hezbollah on July 12, Tehran has stepped up its war of words with its arch-enemy.


Shiite Muslim-dominated Iran is also Hezbollah's main international supporter, although the Islamic republic insists it only provides "moral support" to the movement.


Other Iranian officials meanwhile called for US and Israeli leaders to be prosecuted for "crimes against humanity".


"The United States and the supporters of the Zionist regime are undoubtedly responsible for this savage terrorist catastrophe," Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki said of the Qana strike.


"The UN Security Council must stop the Zionists' crimes in Palestine and Lebanon, and put them on trial immediately for crimes against humanity," the ISNA news agency quoted him saying.


The United States, he argued, had effectively given "the green light" for the attack during an international conference in Rome on the Lebanon conflict on Wednesday.


"Zionist regime officials as well as some US statesmen should be put on trial," foreign ministry spokesman Hamid Reza Asefi also told reporters.


But he meanwhile repeated Iran's denial of allegations it is financing and arming Hezbollah.


"We have not and will not send forces to Lebanon," Asefi said. "We have not provided the Lebanese resistance with arms. We are very transparent: our aid is political and humanitarian."


President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad meanwhile fumed that it was "clear that international organisations have become a tool in the hand of domineering powers" -- in a fresh attack against the UN Security Council.


Iran is under mounting Security Council pressure, with the world body poised to pass a resolution demanding that Tehran suspend its controversial nuclear programme and threatening possible sanctions if it refuses.


"Britain, the planner of this sinister regime, and the US, the unconditional supporter of this regime, are both responsible," Ahmadinejad said of Western support for the "fake, illegitimate and usurper" state of Israel.

[yavoon]

Hmmmm... what do radical Muslims want????

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o20/speardog/Anti_UAC_protesters_feb1_raid_lrg.jpg

dont worry though, because muhammed the penultimate example in all of islam didn't teach anything like that:

Mohammed said to the Jews, "You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle (Mohammed) and I want to expel you from this land (The Arabian Peninsula), so, if anyone owns property, he is permitted to sell it." Vol. 4:392

Mohammed's last words at his deathbed were: "Turn the pagans (non-Muslims) out of the Arabian Peninsula." Vol. 5:716

Mohammed said, "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and whoever says, " None has the right to be worshipped but Allah , his life and property will be saved by me." (otherwise it will not). Vol. 4:196

Mohammed said, "Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him." Vol. 9:57

Allah's Apostle said, "There is no Hijra (i.e. migration) (from Mecca to Medina) after the Conquest (of Mecca), but Jihad and good intention remain; and if you are called (by the Muslim ruler) for fighting, go forth immediately.

(That she said), "O Allah's Apostle! We consider Jihad as the best deed. Should we not fight in Allah's Cause?"

A man came to Allah's Apostle and said, "Instruct me as to such a deed as equals Jihad (in reward)." He replied, "I do not find such a deed."

those radical bastards are perverting islam!

[Atlas]

the Muhammed point was in response to yavoon and your response.

Of course radical islam wants to convert everyone, just as radical evangelicals do too, or catholics. All religions goals are to convert everyone to their faith.

.

I didn't even read the rest of your post. Under the Muslim, under the Koran, they can kill you if you aren't Muslim, They can kill you if you are Muslim and you want to convert.

again I don't care which religion is better and I don't care what religion anyone is I find it all kind of silly. My point is that we are on a collision course with these people and it's going to be bloody. Whatever your points are, are pretty much irrelevant.

[N.O.Bronco]

Just remember Atlus that the PEOPLE of Iran voted out ahmadinejads party and no doubt soon him, partially for this very sort of stuff.

[Atlas]

Just remember Atlus that the PEOPLE of Iran voted out ahmadinejads party and no doubt soon him, partially for this very sort of stuff.


that doesn't matter. He is a figure head. The country is run by the Religious clerics.

Hey on the bright side maybe they'll take their war to Euorpe first.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42075000/jpg/_42075698_ap_muslim203.jpg

[yavoon]

I didn't even read the rest of your post. Under the Muslim, under the Koran, they can kill you if you aren't Muslim, They can kill you if you are Muslim and you want to convert.

again I don't care which religion is better and I don't care what religion anyopne is I find it all kind of silly. My point is that we are on a collision course with these people and it's going to be bloody. Whatever your points are pretty much irrelevant.

to be perfectly accurate, they dont have to kill u if u submit to dhimmitude. if u resist they can enslave u, or kill u. kinda up to them. but if u pay the jizya(infidel tax) and are otherwise subjugated as per 9:29 then u shouldn't literally die. now as a practical matter its not gna be a lot of fun to go from bill of rights to islamic dhimmitude.

9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

also an interesting note, the welfare system in europe and the self censorship of our media is taken by a lot of muslim clerics as dhimmitude and jizya and used as proof of the superiority of islam over the weak infidel values.

[Atlas]

Here are all the p[ics that were entered in that Dutch contest on pictures of Mohammed. Everyone of the people that had their pictures shown was said to have been given a death sentence by Muslim clerics.

http://www.danzfamily.com/archives/blogphotos/06/346-mohammad-cartoons.jpg

[N.O.Bronco]

I didn't even read the rest of your post. Under the Muslim, under the Koran, they can kill you if you aren't Muslim, They can kill you if you are Muslim and you want to convert.

again I don't care which religion is better and I don't care what religion anyopne is I find it all kind of silly. My point is that we are on a collision course with these people and it's going to be bloody. Whatever your points are pretty much irrelevant.

now your frustrating me and dodging my points. how are my points irrelevent if you want or expect this collision and your method is flawed how is that not relelvant? remember we said if vietnam would fall all of asia would fall and it never happened. so just remember assumptions tend to be wrong or at least not all right. you saying a bloody battle is inevitable is quite flawed unless youve seen the future and researched every possible scenario. not to mention that many extremist groups hate each other so an all out war as you suggest is pretty much not gonna happen. the shia and the sunnis getting together to bomb and fight america, not gonna happen. fatah and hamas holding hands and marching onto washington, not gonna happen. your entire assumptions about islam are so flawed its beginning to be laughable.

[Atlas]

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/behead768453_1.jpg

[N.O.Bronco]

wow i can play that game too.

http://images.usatoday.com/news/_photos/2006/02/24/in-funeral.jpg

http://rjr10036.typepad.com/proceed_at_your_own_risk/images/kill_fags.jpg

oh my god there all evil invade that country. Oh wait its america oh its ok then its only a bad thing when non-christians do it, their the evil ones.

[Atlas]

Children chant DEATH! and rally against cartoons

Liaquat Baloch welcomes EU’s statement, demands apology from Denmark

KARACHI: About 5,000 children chanting “Hang those who insulted the prophet” rallied against caricatures of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) on Tuesday, with some torching an effigy of the Danish premier and coffins representing Denmark, Israel and the United States.

At least 5,000 demonstrators, mostly aged between five and 12 years and wearing school uniforms, marched through Karachi chanting “God is Great”, police and witnesses said.

“The entire nation, from men and women to children, are now on the streets to protest against the caricatures,” Jamaat-i-Islami President Merajul Hude, told the protesting children.

Accompanied by their teachers, the children were bussed in from local schools, including madrassas, witnesses and officials said.

Some waved placards with the slogans ‘Down with Denmark’ and ‘Boycott Danish products’ as they marched for about half a kilometre from the National Stadium.

One group then set ablaze a cloth figure representing Anders Fogh Rasmussen, the prime minister of Denmark, and burned plywood coffins emblazoned with the US, Danish and Israeli flags, an AFP photographer said.

The cartoon protests in Pakistan, during which five people died earlier this month, have also had a strong anti-US and anti-Western flavour with demonstrators burning down US fast food restaurants in two cities.

[Atlas]

wow i can play that game too.

http://images.usatoday.com/news/_photos/2006/02/24/in-funeral.jpg

http://rjr10036.typepad.com/proceed_at_your_own_risk/images/kill_fags.jpg

oh my god there all evil invade that country. Oh wait its america oh its ok then its only a bad thing when non-christians do it, their the evil ones.

How does that affect me? Obviously you haven't read a word I have said.

that has nothing to do with me... and that has nothing to do with radical Islam and how they are at war with us even though we don't realize it yet.

[N.O.Bronco]

Children chant DEATH! and rally against cartoons

Liaquat Baloch welcomes EU’s statement, demands apology from Denmark

KARACHI: About 5,000 children chanting “Hang those who insulted the prophet” rallied against caricatures of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) on Tuesday, with some torching an effigy of the Danish premier and coffins representing Denmark, Israel and the United States.

At least 5,000 demonstrators, mostly aged between five and 12 years and wearing school uniforms, marched through Karachi chanting “God is Great”, police and witnesses said.

“The entire nation, from men and women to children, are now on the streets to protest against the caricatures,” Jamaat-i-Islami President Merajul Hude, told the protesting children.

Accompanied by their teachers, the children were bussed in from local schools, including madrassas, witnesses and officials said.

Some waved placards with the slogans ‘Down with Denmark’ and ‘Boycott Danish products’ as they marched for about half a kilometre from the National Stadium.

One group then set ablaze a cloth figure representing Anders Fogh Rasmussen, the prime minister of Denmark, and burned plywood coffins emblazoned with the US, Danish and Israeli flags, an AFP photographer said.

The cartoon protests in Pakistan, during which five people died earlier this month, have also had a strong anti-US and anti-Western flavour with demonstrators burning down US fast food restaurants in two cities.

Are you ever gonna anwser or just pretend our conversation never happened and go on living in your ultra-paranoid world

[N.O.Bronco]

How does that affect me? Obviously you haven't read a word I have said.

that has nothing to do with me... and that has nothing to do with radical Islam.

and what relevency does your continous pictures add to our discussion?

and yes ive read every word youve said and im trying to get anwser about those words that i questioned and you still havent done it. why?

[Atlas]

Are you ever gonna anwser or just pretend our conversation never happened and go on living in your ultra-paranoid world

Ok i'm done with you. You are an idiot.

I'm going to say this one last time.

I don't care for ANY religion. So what ever anti-bible thumping propaganda you put up, I'm sure I will agree with it.

What I am saying for the last time is that radical Islam is at war with us. Islam is spreading all throught the world and new terrorist training grounds will be everywhere. We can act now or act later.

That's it man you can have the last word. I'm it will make just as much sense as your previous 1000 words.

[N.O.Bronco]

Ok i'm done with you. You are an idiot.

I'm going to say this one last time.

I don't care for ANY religion. So what ever anti-bible thumping propaganda you put up, I'm sure I will agree with it.

What I am saying for the last time is that radical Islam is at war with us. Islam is spreading all throught the world and new terrorist training grounds will be everywhere. We can act now or act later.

That's it man you can have the last word. I'm it will make just as much sense as your previous 1000 words.

again i agree with you minus the islam is spreading, which is no more so then any other religion, if you mean extremism of islam then yes i agree, iraq has helped that tremendouslly, where i disagree is here

Originally Posted by Atlas
There is going to be a huge battle between the West and the Muslim states in the not to distant future.

The CIA should start opperations immediatley in Malaysia to keep the Muslims from taking over. Bribing law makers, starting pro christian and anti-Muslim propaganda anything they can do. The battle needs to start now in Asia and Africa for the minds of their people.

and here

you might think it's funny but I don't think seeing all of Asia and Africa falling under The Muslim law funny at all.

i find the second one to be pretty much not true or plausible and the first to actually be a sick way to make the problem even worse. Thats my issue, you seem to be confusing my issue with the fact that we have certain religious extremist groups that hate us, which I agree with you on, and that they want to harm us, which i also agree ith you on.

My posts were in response to that which i quoted nothing else so they are completelly relevent. And i feel if you said them and i disagree and I then provided you with why i do, then i should deserve some explaination for and/or support as to why you said it in the first place and where you got that idea from. I really dont see how im that hard of a person to communicate with.

[defenseman]

again i agree with you minus the islam is spreading, which is no more so then any other religion, if you mean extremism of islam then yes i agree, iraq has helped that tremendouslly, where i disagree is here



and here



i find the second one to be pretty much not true or plausible and the first to actually be a sick way to make the problem even worse. Thats my issue, you seem to be confusing my issue with the fact that we have certain religious extremist groups that hate us, which I agree with you on, and that they want to harm us, which i also agree ith you on.

My posts were in response to that which i quoted nothing else so they are completelly relevent. And i feel if you said them and i disagree and I then provided you with why i do, then i should deserve some explaination for and/or support as to why you said it in the first place and where you got that idea from. I really dont see how im that hard of a person to communicate with.

do you prefer an "away" game or "home" game given the scenario of radical islam vs. the west. Your call. If it's home, do me a favor, paint a target on your roof. I want to make sure the ones who desire to sit on their hands catch "firsthand" the results of their decision. Draw their fire, we'll pick em off....fair enough?...dman

[fontaine]

you might think it's funny but I don't think seeing all of Asia and Africa falling under The Muslim law funny at all.

So tell us when was the last time you were in African or Asian countries and which ones?

Or do you choose to substitute real life experiences with whatever info you might read across the net?

ROFL!

The biggest joke of all though has to be all the Western based companies that were tripping over themselves to establish call centers, and out sourcing to the country that has the 2nd largest Islamic population in the world in India.

Someone ought to tell all those muslims in India that instead of living (largely) with other hindus/buddhists/christians in India they should start cutting their heads off and suicide bomb all the call centers and offices of those western companies!

[defenseman]

So tell us when was the last time you were in African or Asian countries and which ones?

Or do you choose to substitute real life experiences with whatever info you might read across the net?

ROFL!

The exact same can be said for the islamo facists who desire our demise. I would venture to guess most of them have never visited us (hopefully). And I'm sure they absorb all the media/rhetoric from their own sources and form their opinions of us from that. That said, perhaps the "substitution" scenario is an option, not necessarily viable at best. In today's world, with an absolute boon of information does one need to "visit" to necessarily make a call on what is going on? I say not, lots of info out there. Plenty to make a call..dman

[fontaine]

The exact same can be said for the islamo facists who desire our demise. I would venture to guess most of them have never visited us (hopefully). And I'm sure they absorb all the media/rhetoric from their own sources and form their opinions of us from that. That said, perhaps the "substitution" scenario is an option, not necessarily viable at best. In today's world, with an absolute boon of information does one need to "visit" to necessarily make a call on what is going on? I say not, lots of info out there. Plenty to make a call..dman

What the heck does my post have anything to do with Islamic facists/fundamentalists.

I was responding to Atlas' claims that Islam is ready to take over Africa/Asia.

Why are you trying to mix the opinions I/we have on Islam in Africa/Asia with Islamic fundamentalists?

I don't mean to offend you but it sure doesn't seem like those 2nd hand info/news briefs are working to your advantage from reading your post.

[alkemical]

Another thing i found amusing.

is how "western" approach is used to spread the fundamentalist message. Via music video's, etc - It's very funny.

[Atlas]

So tell us when was the last time you were in African or Asian countries and which ones?

Or do you choose to substitute real life experiences with whatever info you might read across the net?

ROFL!

The biggest joke of all though has to be all the Western based companies that were tripping over themselves to establish call centers, and out sourcing to the country that has the 2nd largest Islamic population in the world in India.

Someone ought to tell all those muslims in India that instead of living (largely) with other hindus/buddhists/christians in India they should start cutting their heads off and suicide bomb all the call centers and offices of those western companies!

I was in both Djibouti and Egypt in 2003 along with Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Germany, Holland.

I don't know you have to be any of those places to see what is going on however.

I don't understand what your point is. I believe India has the 3rd largest behind Indonesia and Turkey, but Turkey might be behind India in total number count. What does Indi having the 2nd or 3rd largest Mulsim populace have anything to do with the spread of radical Islam around the world?

[defenseman]

So tell us when was the last time you were in African or Asian countries and which ones?

Or do you choose to substitute real life experiences with whatever info you might read across the net?

ROFL!

The biggest joke of all though has to be all the Western based companies that were tripping over themselves to establish call centers, and out sourcing to the country that has the 2nd largest Islamic population in the world in India.

Someone ought to tell all those muslims in India that instead of living (largely) with other hindus/buddhists/christians in India they should start cutting their heads off and suicide bomb all the call centers and offices of those western companies!

Is this all true? If so, have you seen it personally? If not, why can't the african connection wrt islamo facists be true without also visiting said country? My point is the information, occassionally 2nd hand and probably worse sometimes still is what it is. It can be tough gleening the truth, but it still can be utilized. As far as islamoficist terrorists types, they are all over , including india, pakistan, etc...etc....etc.... Muslims are different than terrorists. However, many terrorists are of the muslim religion. And they do mean to do us harm, to discount that would be remiss on anyone's part. Left unchecked, it is just a matter of time. And it is a matter of preference, does one prefer an "away" game or "home" game, I'll take away.......dman

[Atlas]

Is this all true? If so, have you seen it personally? If not, why can't the african connection wrt islamo facists be true without also visiting said country? My point is the information, occassionally 2nd hand and probably worse sometimes still is what it is. It can be tough gleening the truth, but it still can be utilized. As far as islamoficist terrorists types, they are all over , including india, pakistan, etc...etc....etc.... Muslims are different than terrorists. However, many terrorists are of the muslim religion. And they do mean to do us harm, to discount that would be remiss on anyone's part. Left unchecked, it is just a matter of time. And it is a matter of preference, does one prefer an "away" game or "home" game, I'll take away.......dman


The thing with radical Islam is that they do not see countries. They are being ruled by religion not by said country. That is very dangerous to the rest of the world.

[defenseman]

The thing with radical Islam is that they do not see countries. They are being ruled by religion not by said country. That is very dangerous to the rest of the world.

Yep, nothing is considered untouchable to them. Ergo, if left unchecked they will migrate to our neck of the woods...dman

[fontaine]

I was in both Djibouti and Egypt in 2003 along with Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Germany, Holland.

I don't know you have to be any of those places to see what is going on however.


I just wanted to know exactly how you think Islam is taking over Africa and Asia and wondered if you have been to those places to validate your perception?

I've also been to a lot of places in Asia and didn't see anything of the sort (Islam taking over).

I don't understand what your point is. I believe India has the 3rd largest behind Indonesia and Turkey, but Turkey might be behind India in total number count. What does Indi having the 2nd or 3rd largest Mulsim populace have anything to do with the spread of radical Islam around the world?

My point is just an illustration of places that have the highest poplutions of Muslims in the world yet (along with other religions) they don't report vast suicide bombings, beheadings, kidnappings and many attacks of terrorism. How many Indian/Turkish fundamentalist al queada like cells are operating in Iraq or around the world?

I'm sure there are sporadic events of terrorism as I've read and seen in those places but do we truely have a war to wage over minds from the muslims in India/Turkey? Especially when those countries are largely westernized along their cities?

[alkemical]

http://www.tsrocks.com/s/sage_francis_texts/makeshift_patriot.html

[fontaine]

Is this all true? If so, have you seen it personally? If not, why can't the african connection wrt islamo facists be true without also visiting said country? My point is the information, occassionally 2nd hand and probably worse sometimes still is what it is. It can be tough gleening the truth, but it still can be utilized. As far as islamoficist terrorists types, they are all over , including india, pakistan, etc...etc....etc.... Muslims are different than terrorists. However, many terrorists are of the muslim religion. And they do mean to do us harm, to discount that would be remiss on anyone's part. Left unchecked, it is just a matter of time. And it is a matter of preference, does one prefer an "away" game or "home" game, I'll take away.......dman

I really don't want to get into a discussion that is as specific as reliability of 2nd hand info vs direct in field knowledge. That's not the purpose of the point I'm interested in.

I just find it fascinating how and to what extent the words Muslim/Islam provoke fear/anger that is better suited to Islamic fundamentalists and to what extent the two are perceived as intertwined in the western psyche.

I do know this, that the sentiments on both sides seem to mirror a lot of what I've read/heard about and seen from the cold war days. Two sides viewing/misunderstanding each other through fear/anger rather than cold hard facts and objective view points.

The "they do it to us, so we'll do it to them" approach doesn't seem like a short or long term fix IMO when countering fundamentalism.

[Atlas]

I just wanted to know exactly how you think Islam is taking over Africa and Asia and wondered if you have been to those places to validate your perception?

I've also been to a lot of places in Asia and didn't see anything of the sort (Islam taking over).



My point is just an illustration of places that have the highest poplutions of Muslims in the world yet (along with other religions) they don't report vast suicide bombings, beheadings, kidnappings and many attacks of terrorism. How many Indian/Turkish fundamentalist al queada like cells are operating in Iraq or around the world?

I'm sure there are sporadic events of terrorism as I've read and seen in those places but do we truely have a war to wage over minds from the muslims in India/Turkey? Especially when those countries are largely westernized along their cities?

The spread of Islam in Africa has started very violently in Sudan and Somalia. That is where the U.S. should be not Iraq.

The U.S. has a base in Djibouti where they run some very covert anti-terrosit operations out of.

Now Fontaine read this article.

Socals Link: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?
Sudan jihad forces Islam on Christians

Women refusing to convert gang-raped, mutilated, says relief worker


By Art Moore


Sudan's militant Muslim regime is slaughtering Christians who refuse to convert to Islam, according to the head of an aid group who recently returned from the African nation.

The forced conversions are just one aspect of the Khartoum government's self-declared jihad on the mostly Christian and animist south, Dennis Bennett, executive director of Seattle-based Servant's Heart told WorldNetDaily.

Villagers in several areas of the northeast Upper Nile region say that when women are captured by government forces they are asked: "Are you Christian or Muslim?"

Women who answer "Muslim" are set free, but typically soldiers gang-rape those who answer "Christian" then cut off their breasts and leave them to die as an example for others.

Bennett says these stories are corroborated by witnesses from several tribes in the region. Upon returning to the U.S., he wrote a letter to influential members of Congress and activists.

"After witnessing once again the situation on the ground there," Bennett wrote, "I must ask 'How long will the United States government allow the Government of Sudan to continue its jihad against the Black African Christians of South Sudan?'"

Backed by Muslim clerics, the National Islamic Front regime in the Arab and Muslim north declared a jihad, or holy war, on the south in 1989. Since 1983, an estimated 2 million people have died from war and related famine. About 4.5 million have become refugees.

Sudan's holy war against the south was reaffirmed in October by First Vice President Ali Osman Taha.

"The jihad is our way, and we will not abandon it and will keep its banner high," he said to a brigade of mujahedin fighters heading for the war front, according to Sudan's official SUNA news agency. "We will never sell out our faith and will never betray the oath to our martyrs."

The U.S. House of Representatives adopted a resolution finding that Khartoum is "systematically committing genocide," but current legislation that would impose sanctions has been stalled. The Sudan Peace Act is opposed by both the White House and Wall Street.

Sanctions in the House version of the bill target oil revenues that Khartoum is using to fuel its war effort. Bennett, with 20 years experience in international risk management and banking, said he was the first to probe the link between oil and jihad that is now documented and publicized by human rights groups. His research began in 1996 when he asked: If you're the government of Sudan and you're broke, how are you paying for your war?

In his letter urging action by the U.S., he points out that Sudan's military continues to decorate and promote known war criminals such as Commander Taib Musba, who in the mid-1980s killed an estimated 15,000 unarmed, civilian, ethnic Uduk Christians.

In 1986, Musba entered the Uduk tribal capital of Chali and declared to its Christians: "You are all going to convert from Christianity to Islam today, because here is what's going to happen to you if you don't."

Musba then killed five church leaders in front of the gathered villagers. When they refused to convert, he began killing unarmed men, women and children. Some were herded at gunpoint into a hut then run over by a 50-ton, Soviet-made tank.

He also herded groups of about a dozen people into a hut, where he asked the first person "Do you renounce Jesus Christ?" Anyone who refused was killed by a three-inch nail driven into the top of the head.

The U.N. high commissioner for refugees granted the Uduks international refugee status in 1992 after investigating the atrocities, but almost as many died during the six years they waited for the declaration.

Islam also is forced on Sudanese in the Muslim north. Security police in Khartoum are pursuing a local convert to Christianity who went into hiding three weeks ago to escape arrest and possible death, the Compass Direct news service reports. Aladin Omer Agabni Mohammed, who left Islam 11 years ago to become a Christian, is subject to the death penalty under Sudanese criminal law for "apostasy." According to a church leader, two other converts face a similar situation.

Forced starvation

Bennett says that in addition to the more immediate, readily apparent atrocities taking place, there is a slower, less perceptive persecution that is equally deadly.

Forced starvation is one of the primary tools of the Khartoum regime, he says. When government forces attack a Christian village, they kill everyone they catch, but those who flee lose everything necessary for survival.

"The government comes in and burns the crops, burns grain stored if there was any excess, burns houses down," Bennett said. "Now you have only the clothes on your back, no tools, no cooking pots, no buckets for water, and you have to run two days through the bush in 115-degree temperatures in order to escape."

In the arid wilderness, escapees try to survive on tree leaves and stagnant, dysentery-infested water. If a women is breastfeeding, her milk dries up, Bennett said, and the baby starts dying. Small children, just weaned, also start dying.

"But all the family has to do is change their name to Muhammad or Ramadan, convert to Islam and walk the two days back to the government of Sudan who will care for them," he said.

Last year, the government of Sudan burned all the crops in the area where Bennett's group works.

"There wasn't anything to harvest," he said. "Literally we saw people eating roots and tree leaves. It's like eating the nutritional properties of cardboard. It's enough to put something in your stomach but not enough to feed you."

A food drop came from the U.N. World Food Program, he said, "but they never came in to do an assessment; they just dropped it from the air."

As the "hungry season" approaches – the rainy period of June, July and early August – emergency food supplies become critical. Servant's Heart believes it will need to feed 50,000 people in its area during that time.

Slavery as tool of terror

Slavery is another tool of the National Islamic Front regime, though Bennett says it is not known in the northeast Upper Nile region, mainly because of lack of transportation.

Western Bahr El Ghazal is one location where it persists because the railroad line allows captured men, women and children to be taken to slave markets in the north.

"If you want to end systematic slavery, blow up the train line and keep it blown up," Bennett said.

The ongoing controversy surrounding slave redemption – the practice of buying freedom promoted by some humanitarian groups – arose again in the past week when the Irish Times and Washington Post published exposes acknowledging the existence of slavery in Sudan but alleging that fake slave redemption is taking place.

Bennett respects the work of groups buying back the slaves, but he believes it is inevitable that some will be conned. Engaging in the practice is a matter of individual conscience, he says.

"Anytime you have tens of thousands of American dollars coming into an area you've got potential problems of corruption," Bennett said.

He says the "jury is still out" on whether it fuels the market by increasing demand.

"Slave-taking would still be happening even if nobody was buying back slaves," he said. "Maybe not to the full extent."

But he believes it's important to keep in mind that taking slaves is "just one more facet of the jihad against the civilian population" in southern Sudan. The methods may vary in different parts of the country, but the aim is the same.

"In the Uduk tribe, Taib Musba drove three-inch nails into people's heads," he said. "In northeast Upper Nile, they are gang-raping women and cutting off their breasts; in western Bahr El Ghazal, they are capturing women and selling them as slaves."

[yavoon]

So tell us when was the last time you were in African or Asian countries and which ones?

Or do you choose to substitute real life experiences with whatever info you might read across the net?

ROFL!

The biggest joke of all though has to be all the Western based companies that were tripping over themselves to establish call centers, and out sourcing to the country that has the 2nd largest Islamic population in the world in India.

Someone ought to tell all those muslims in India that instead of living (largely) with other hindus/buddhists/christians in India they should start cutting their heads off and suicide bomb all the call centers and offices of those western companies!

oh yah indian hindu's have zero problems living w/ indian muslims. its practically utopia over there where there are mixed populations infact!

I love how if everyone isnt slaughtering each other 24/7 in some deranged version of 29 days then they are obviously peaceful.

[Atlas]

My point is just an illustration of places that have the highest poplutions of Muslims in the world yet (along with other religions) they don't report vast suicide bombings, beheadings, kidnappings and many attacks of terrorism. How many Indian/Turkish fundamentalist al queada like cells are operating in Iraq or around the world?

?

Of course Muslims aren't beheading or attacking people in Muslim Countries. they do these to Christians in Christian countries.

If your a Christian surrounded by Muslims in Turkey you probably won't have a problem if you abide by their customs!

No lets say you are a Christian in Maylasia or Sudan where the Muslims are trying to take over these societies... well you might want to be careful about where and how you practice your faith.

[defenseman]

I really don't want to get into a discussion that is as specific as reliability of 2nd hand info vs direct in field knowledge. That's not the purpose of the point I'm interested in.

I just find it fascinating how and to what extent the words Muslim/Islam provoke fear/anger that is better suited to Islamic fundamentalists and to what extent the two are perceived as intertwined in the western psyche.

I do know this, that the sentiments on both sides seem to mirror a lot of what I've read/heard about and seen from the cold war days. Two sides viewing/misunderstanding each other through fear/anger rather than cold hard facts and objective view points.

The "they do it to us, so we'll do it to them" approach doesn't seem like a short or long term fix IMO when countering fundamentalism.

The bold , I agree is true, however at the present sitting on one's hands will get one killed, that is a short term correction to the detriment of survival in general.
Misunderstood? Perhaps. However, the leaders of the muslim world, and i do mean "leaders" need to decry the 'terrorists'. However, they do not as one voice, why? They perhaps fear for their own safety and that of their families? Their religion doesn't condone it? They feel sorry for their brethren? You tell me the answer, I have no idea. In the meantime, the "terrorists" continue to wreak havoc and bloodshed whereever and whenever possible. Soon enough, someone must make it "safe" for a leader to step up to the pulpit and decry the terrorists. who is going to do that? What is the ramifications of not allowing them to do that? LOTS and lots of questions. In the meantime, we need to pursue a method of ensuring the "terrorists" don't prosper as they have in the recent past at the minumum.....dman

[fontaine]

oh yah indian hindu's have zero problems living w/ indian muslims. its practically utopia over there where there are mixed populations infact!

I love how if everyone isnt slaughtering each other 24/7 in some deranged version of 29 days then they are obviously peaceful.

I take it you do understand the concept of things being relative to each other.

That's why I'm wondering why you wasted time pretending like I don't?

[yavoon]

I just wanted to know exactly how you think Islam is taking over Africa and Asia and wondered if you have been to those places to validate your perception?

I've also been to a lot of places in Asia and didn't see anything of the sort (Islam taking over).



My point is just an illustration of places that have the highest poplutions of Muslims in the world yet (along with other religions) they don't report vast suicide bombings, beheadings, kidnappings and many attacks of terrorism. How many Indian/Turkish fundamentalist al queada like cells are operating in Iraq or around the world?

I'm sure there are sporadic events of terrorism as I've read and seen in those places but do we truely have a war to wage over minds from the muslims in India/Turkey? Especially when those countries are largely westernized along their cities?

obviously no1 cares about kashmir much anymore. india has massive continuing ongoing problems w/ muslims. just because the west doesn't care to report all the crap indians go through doesn't mean there isnt a lot of it.

and god forbid when u get to a muslim majority country like turkey or egypt. in egypt recently christians shops were burned down because it was suspected that a muslim women was in love w/ a christian man. maybe thats the environment u want to live in, I dont know.

[yavoon]

I take it you do understand the concept of things being relative to each other.

That's why I'm wondering why you wasted time pretending like I don't?

relative to what? india has huge problems w/ its muslim population and its always a large issue. even irrespective of kashmir. like I said, unless they are literally killing each other 24/7 u somehow think its all goody goody over there.

[fontaine]

The spread of Islam in Africa has started very violently in Sudan and Somalia. That is where the U.S. should be not Iraq.

The U.S. has a base in Djibouti where they run some very covert anti-terrosit operations out of.

Now Fontaine read this article.

Socals Link: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?
Sudan jihad forces Islam on Christians

Women refusing to convert gang-raped, mutilated, says relief worker


By Art Moore


Sudan's militant Muslim regime is slaughtering Christians who refuse to convert to Islam, according to the head of an aid group who recently returned from the African nation.

The forced conversions are just one aspect of the Khartoum government's self-declared jihad on the mostly Christian and animist south, Dennis Bennett, executive director of Seattle-based Servant's Heart told WorldNetDaily.

Villagers in several areas of the northeast Upper Nile region say that when women are captured by government forces they are asked: "Are you Christian or Muslim?"

Women who answer "Muslim" are set free, but typically soldiers gang-rape those who answer "Christian" then cut off their breasts and leave them to die as an example for others.

Bennett says these stories are corroborated by witnesses from several tribes in the region. Upon returning to the U.S., he wrote a letter to influential members of Congress and activists.

"After witnessing once again the situation on the ground there," Bennett wrote, "I must ask 'How long will the United States government allow the Government of Sudan to continue its jihad against the Black African Christians of South Sudan?'"

Backed by Muslim clerics, the National Islamic Front regime in the Arab and Muslim north declared a jihad, or holy war, on the south in 1989. Since 1983, an estimated 2 million people have died from war and related famine. About 4.5 million have become refugees.

Sudan's holy war against the south was reaffirmed in October by First Vice President Ali Osman Taha.

"The jihad is our way, and we will not abandon it and will keep its banner high," he said to a brigade of mujahedin fighters heading for the war front, according to Sudan's official SUNA news agency. "We will never sell out our faith and will never betray the oath to our martyrs."

The U.S. House of Representatives adopted a resolution finding that Khartoum is "systematically committing genocide," but current legislation that would impose sanctions has been stalled. The Sudan Peace Act is opposed by both the White House and Wall Street.

Sanctions in the House version of the bill target oil revenues that Khartoum is using to fuel its war effort. Bennett, with 20 years experience in international risk management and banking, said he was the first to probe the link between oil and jihad that is now documented and publicized by human rights groups. His research began in 1996 when he asked: If you're the government of Sudan and you're broke, how are you paying for your war?

In his letter urging action by the U.S., he points out that Sudan's military continues to decorate and promote known war criminals such as Commander Taib Musba, who in the mid-1980s killed an estimated 15,000 unarmed, civilian, ethnic Uduk Christians.

In 1986, Musba entered the Uduk tribal capital of Chali and declared to its Christians: "You are all going to convert from Christianity to Islam today, because here is what's going to happen to you if you don't."

Musba then killed five church leaders in front of the gathered villagers. When they refused to convert, he began killing unarmed men, women and children. Some were herded at gunpoint into a hut then run over by a 50-ton, Soviet-made tank.

He also herded groups of about a dozen people into a hut, where he asked the first person "Do you renounce Jesus Christ?" Anyone who refused was killed by a three-inch nail driven into the top of the head.

The U.N. high commissioner for refugees granted the Uduks international refugee status in 1992 after investigating the atrocities, but almost as many died during the six years they waited for the declaration.

Islam also is forced on Sudanese in the Muslim north. Security police in Khartoum are pursuing a local convert to Christianity who went into hiding three weeks ago to escape arrest and possible death, the Compass Direct news service reports. Aladin Omer Agabni Mohammed, who left Islam 11 years ago to become a Christian, is subject to the death penalty under Sudanese criminal law for "apostasy." According to a church leader, two other converts face a similar situation.

Forced starvation

Bennett says that in addition to the more immediate, readily apparent atrocities taking place, there is a slower, less perceptive persecution that is equally deadly.

Forced starvation is one of the primary tools of the Khartoum regime, he says. When government forces attack a Christian village, they kill everyone they catch, but those who flee lose everything necessary for survival.

"The government comes in and burns the crops, burns grain stored if there was any excess, burns houses down," Bennett said. "Now you have only the clothes on your back, no tools, no cooking pots, no buckets for water, and you have to run two days through the bush in 115-degree temperatures in order to escape."

In the arid wilderness, escapees try to survive on tree leaves and stagnant, dysentery-infested water. If a women is breastfeeding, her milk dries up, Bennett said, and the baby starts dying. Small children, just weaned, also start dying.

"But all the family has to do is change their name to Muhammad or Ramadan, convert to Islam and walk the two days back to the government of Sudan who will care for them," he said.

Last year, the government of Sudan burned all the crops in the area where Bennett's group works.

"There wasn't anything to harvest," he said. "Literally we saw people eating roots and tree leaves. It's like eating the nutritional properties of cardboard. It's enough to put something in your stomach but not enough to feed you."

A food drop came from the U.N. World Food Program, he said, "but they never came in to do an assessment; they just dropped it from the air."

As the "hungry season" approaches – the rainy period of June, July and early August – emergency food supplies become critical. Servant's Heart believes it will need to feed 50,000 people in its area during that time.

Slavery as tool of terror

Slavery is another tool of the National Islamic Front regime, though Bennett says it is not known in the northeast Upper Nile region, mainly because of lack of transportation.

Western Bahr El Ghazal is one location where it persists because the railroad line allows captured men, women and children to be taken to slave markets in the north.

"If you want to end systematic slavery, blow up the train line and keep it blown up," Bennett said.

The ongoing controversy surrounding slave redemption – the practice of buying freedom promoted by some humanitarian groups – arose again in the past week when the Irish Times and Washington Post published exposes acknowledging the existence of slavery in Sudan but alleging that fake slave redemption is taking place.

Bennett respects the work of groups buying back the slaves, but he believes it is inevitable that some will be conned. Engaging in the practice is a matter of individual conscience, he says.

"Anytime you have tens of thousands of American dollars coming into an area you've got potential problems of corruption," Bennett said.

He says the "jury is still out" on whether it fuels the market by increasing demand.

"Slave-taking would still be happening even if nobody was buying back slaves," he said. "Maybe not to the full extent."

But he believes it's important to keep in mind that taking slaves is "just one more facet of the jihad against the civilian population" in southern Sudan. The methods may vary in different parts of the country, but the aim is the same.

"In the Uduk tribe, Taib Musba drove three-inch nails into people's heads," he said. "In northeast Upper Nile, they are gang-raping women and cutting off their breasts; in western Bahr El Ghazal, they are capturing women and selling them as slaves."


That's awful.

But again why do you not fear the Chinese who have been practicing slow genocide on the Buddhists in Tibet for decades?

Or how the Chinese persecute their own Christians?

I'm just wondering why Islam (the religion of hundreds of millions) should shoulder then brunt of hate/anger/war on the actions of a few a$$holes?

[Atlas]

That's awful.

But again why do you not fear the Chinese who have been practicing slow genocide on the Buddhists in Tibet for decades?

Or how the Chinese persecute their own Christians?

I'm just wondering why Islam (the religion of hundreds of millions) should shoulder then brunt of hate/anger/war on the actions of a few a$$holes?


Because the Chinese are ruled by a government that has laws and rules. They trade with America. As bad as they can be the Chinese government is held resposible for what they do.

These Radical terrorists have nothing on their agenda besides spreading their faith one way or another. They care nothing about international boundries or states soverienty. They aren't a governmnet they are a fanaticle religion. If you don't understand that your just dense.

[fontaine]

relative to what? india has huge problems w/ its muslim population and its always a large issue. even irrespective of kashmir. like I said, unless they are literally killing each other 24/7 u somehow think its all goody goody over there.

I didn't say that. But assume away, you're on a roll.

[Atlas]

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o20/speardog/Anti_UAC_protesters_feb1_raid_lrg.jpg

They are at war with us

[defenseman]

That's awful.

But again why do you not fear the Chinese who have been practicing slow genocide on the Buddhists in Tibet for decades?

Or how the Chinese persecute their own Christians?

I'm just wondering why Islam (the religion of hundreds of millions) should shoulder then brunt of hate/anger/war on the actions of a few a$$holes?

Because radical islam, or terrorists attacked us on 9/11. Their leaders live in "fear" of these few a$$holes. You tell me how to stop this, dialogue? Same religion , same jihad, they are freaking nuts..dman

[fontaine]

Because the Chinese are ruled by a government that has laws and rules. They trade with America. As bad as they can be the Chinese government is held resposible for what they do.

These Radical terrorists have nothing on their agenda besides spreading their faith one way or another. They care nothing about international boundries or states soverienty. They aren't a governmnet they are a fanaticle religion. If you don't understand that your just dense.

The Chinese government is held responsible by who exactly? I don't see anyone taking the Chinese to task over it's practices in Tibet on it's Christians etc?

I'm glad you're thinking along the lines of Radical Terrorists (I fully agree with what you wrote there) and not Islam in general. It's a different take to how you were quoting Islam in general.

[yavoon]

That's awful.

But again why do you not fear the Chinese who have been practicing slow genocide on the Buddhists in Tibet for decades?

Or how the Chinese persecute their own Christians?

I'm just wondering why Islam (the religion of hundreds of millions) should shoulder then brunt of hate/anger/war on the actions of a few a$$holes?

because islam is 50x the threat of every other religion combined. maybe more.

there is no part of the world where islam is not asserting itself in opposite to freedom of speech, religion democracy and equality under the law.

in egypt shops are burned down because a muslim women falls in love w/ a christian man

in australia the highest cleric in all the land says women deserve to be raped if they do not cover up

in iraq....hahaha

in iran the bahai faith is being systematically murdered by gov't decree, along w/ about 800 other crimes.

in britain subways blow up, marches are done that submit that islam will conquer britain and subjugate its common law.

in spain trains blow up

in holland artists who speak out against islam are murdered(theo van gogh), and politicians have to come running to america(ayaan hirsi ali).

in turkey christian journalists are killed for questioning islam(unturkish)

in russia school children are held hostage and blown up

in india trains and markets are blown up

in thailand ice cream vendors are killed and school teachers are burned alive

malaysia creeping islamic law, things blown up

phillipines active islamic insurgency

indonesia active islamic radicals

america towers get blown up

canada sharia law tries to be setup, arresting of numerous terrorists

france, there are 800 mainly islamic areas in france that are akin to kosovo. where no authority of french gov't or non muslim can go. this includes things like mail delivery which can get attacked

algeria huge active islamic insurgency

somalia setup sharia law for a short time, started beheading ppl who didnt pray 5 times a day, gov't bought an "amputation machine" for sharia's penalty against thievery

saudi arabia brutal gov't at odds w/ brutal terrorist cells

palestine...HAHAHAH bred an entire culture designed around murdering ppl. reaping fruits of labor.

and there are numerous african nations that I'm only vaguely aware of, as well as countries that have major issues I didn't really bother w/(pakistan and bangladesh for example). this game of dismissing islam because david koresh once hidout in waco texas isnt going to work. certainly the world will always be full of nuts. but islam is on a huge bender right now. the only region I can even think of on the planet that isnt actively dealing w/ the hatred and/or violence of islam is south america.

[alkemical]

Boo!

[yavoon]

I didn't say that. But assume away, you're on a roll.

u tried to imply that india is living well w/ its muslims. which is pretty absurd considering the hindu's have been taking the brunt of islamic aggression for quite some time.

[Atlas]

\

I'm glad you're thinking along the lines of Radical Terrorists (I fully agree with what you wrote there) and not Islam in general. It's a different take to how you were quoting Islam in general.

No I have always said radical Islam.
I have no problem with any religion as long as they mind their own business.
RADICAL ISLAM will need to be adressed soon. They are getting footholds all over the world. After they get Malaysia, Sudan, Somalia, Thailand, Phillipines do we act?? Or do we act before these things happen.

[defenseman]

Boo!

I can only assume your desire is to wait until they come ashore so to speak. Very well, be sure to be first in line when they do so. Not recognizing them for what they are could eventually turn us into a militaristic state, vice a republic. It'll be all we can do to control them at that point..dman

[Bronco Bob]

u tried to imply that india is living well w/ its muslims. which is pretty absurd considering the hindu's have been taking the brunt of islamic aggression for quite some time.

Someone blew up a train in India just yesterday, ironically named the Peace Train. The train was an India/Pakistan connection that had been intended to be part of an effort to normalize relations between them.

Even Iran has been attacked by a series of al-Quada bombings in recent days.

[defenseman]

Someone blew up a train in India just yesterday, ironically named the Peace Train. The train was an India/Pakistan connection that had been intended to be part of an effort to normalize relations between them.

Even Iran has been attacked by a series of al-Quada bombings in recent days.

You sure about that? ......I know of the attack, but not al qaeda ties...dman

[alkemical]

I can only assume your desire is to wait until they come ashore so to speak. Very well, be sure to be first in line when they do so. Not recognizing them for what they are could eventually turn us into a militaristic state, vice a republic. It'll be all we can do to control them at that point..dman


Booga booga!

[defenseman]

Booga booga!

Just as I suspected. I'm wondering how "booga booga"! will combat an AK-47, or a dull sword to the throat? My guess, you lose..dman

*I put a check in the block for a Militaristic state, vice republic for you. That is where we will end up playing a home game, especially if a WMD is utilized by the terrorists.

[Bronco Bob]

You sure about that? ......I know of the attack, but not al qaeda ties...dman

TEHRAN (Reuters) -
Iran has arrested some 65 men suspected of being behind a deadly bombing that killed members of the elite Revolutionary Guards in a southeastern border province, the news agency ISNA said on Friday.

A booby-trapped car blew up a bus owned by the Guards on Wednesday, killing at least 11 people in the city of Zahedan, the capital of the Sistan-Baluchestan province which has been the center of low-level unrest over the past months.

The attack was claimed by a shadowy Sunni militant group, Jundallah (God's soldiers), which Iran has said was linked to
Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network. Tehran has blamed Jundallah for past killings in the area bordering Pakistan.

"Security forces have arrested some 65 suspects in Zahedan ... They are linked to the terrorist Jundallah group," local police commander Brigadier General Mohammad Ghafari was quoted by ISNA as saying.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070216/wl_nm/iran_bombing_arrest_dc_2

[alkemical]

Just as I suspected. I'm wondering how "booga booga"! will combat an AK-47, or a dull sword to the throat? My guess, you lose..dman

*I put a check in the block for a Militaristic state, vice republic for you. That is where we will end up playing a home game, especially if a WMD is utilized by the terrorists.

Actually - if a WMD is used on american soil - it will be a militarist republic anyway. The gov't will see to that (martial law, etc).

Oh PS Dman - knock off the over-dramaticisms. I don't fear radical muslims: A) Because i don't deem it as serious as the media states. It's not that a problem doesn't exist - but i feel that it's not muslim v. christian/east v. west - it's a bigger issue than that.

B) If i'm not tolerant of the loss of freedoms done under the guise of our own flag, what makes you think i'm going to take it from some other form?

[alkemical]

IMO Al-Quedia is bigger than some fundy islam claims. They are using fundy islam as a tool. But this is a battle MUCH larger than culture and religion. That's my take though.

[yavoon]

Actually - if a WMD is used on american

B) If i'm not tolerant of the loss of freedoms done under the guise of our own flag, what makes you think i'm going to take it from some other form?

this isnt a multiple choice test. there is great momentum here, as can be seen from places like france. u can't just all of a sudden decide "I'd kinda not like sharia law to be imposed here."

the longer u wait, the more brutal the fight will be. if the world, right now, engaged the hatred of islam on an ideological level. recognizing how theologically valid all these actions are, and dealt w/ them. then we can avoid a whole helluva a lot of hurt.

thats a big problem though, because the lefties stand in the way w/ their "allreligionlooksame" argument, and prevent any1, even the real reformers of the muslim world from getting a word in. the issue can't be addressed and dealt w/ the brazen PC ignorance of the left.

another huge problem we have is the left's "allreligionlooksame" thesis doesn't fly at all in the muslim world. theological arguments are actually valid to muslims, and if everytime the "radicals" have the more sound theological reasoning it will be very hard to EVER get rid of them. I know the left would like to think all religions are magically equivalent because they have so little care for religion, but to actual religious ppl, and especially in the muslim world the actual interpretation of the koran/sunnah/shariah/hadith is massively important. and if ur interpretation is peaceful but weaker, u will lose to a more valid and more violent interpretation.

[alkemical]

this isnt a multiple choice test. there is great momentum here, as can be seen from places like france. u can't just all of a sudden decide "I'd kinda not like sharia law to be imposed here."

the longer u wait, the more brutal the fight will be. if the world, right now, engaged the hatred of islam on an ideological level. recognizing how theologically valid all these actions are, and dealt w/ them. then we can avoid a whole helluva a lot of hurt.

thats a big problem though, because the lefties stand in the way w/ their "allreligionlooksame" argument, and prevent any1, even the real reformers of the muslim world from getting a word in. the issue can't be addressed and dealt w/ the brazen PC ignorance of the left.

another huge problem we have is the left's "allreligionlooksame" thesis doesn't fly at all in the muslim world. theological arguments are actually valid to muslims, and if everytime the "radicals" have the more sound theological reasoning it will be very hard to EVER get rid of them. I know the left would like to think all religions are magically equivalent because they have so little care for religion, but to actual religious ppl, and especially in the muslim world the actual interpretation of the koran/sunnah/shariah/hadith is massively important. and if ur interpretation is peaceful but weaker, u will lose to a more valid and more violent interpretation.



The christians got over mass slaughter, islam will too. Ebb & Flow of the world. Besides the herd needs thinning.

[defenseman]

The christians got over mass slaughter, islam will too. Ebb & Flow of the world. Besides the herd needs thinning.

A bit of blood letting for the ages perhaps? that is exactly where we are headed right now, unfortunately...dman

[yavoon]

The christians got over mass slaughter, islam will too. Ebb & Flow of the world. Besides the herd needs thinning.

well the largest growth rates in the world are in muslim countries. so the islamic world is hardly thinning. and even after making an entire post dedicated to the absurdity of "allreligionlooksame" u counter w/ an "allreligionlooksame" argument.

like I said, this wont fly in the islamic world. and is an incredibly ignorant and shallow way to view religion.

[alkemical]

well the largest growth rates in the world are in muslim countries. so the islamic world is hardly thinning. and even after making an entire post dedicated to the absurdity of "allreligionlooksame" u counter w/ an "allreligionlooksame" argument.

like I said, this wont fly in the islamic world. and is an incredibly ignorant and shallow way to view religion.


Uhm - if i pointed out that allreligionslookthesame, and illustrate how well - it appears that people - exploit allreligionlooksthesame - for their own needs and purposes. I'm sorry you fail to comprehend how - man - has seemingly gone through massacre in the name of kings, crowns, gods and flags.

As a self proclaimed atheist, you are sticking up for viewing religion as shallow - when you do nothing but point out one aspect of fundamentalism on one religion - and reject claims that other religions do the same thing - that wouldn't be... "realitive"

Also - if you fear muslims so much. Why not enlist and go kill a few yourself.

[alkemical]

A bit of blood letting for the ages perhaps? that is exactly where we are headed right now, unfortunately...dman



Not unfortunate IMO, overdue and much needed.

[defenseman]

Not unfortunate IMO, overdue and much needed.

I see where it's headed, really wish it could be avoided, don't have much hope of that though...dman

[alkemical]

I see where it's headed, really wish it could be avoided, don't have much hope of that though...dman



I figure that's what enough people wanted, so i might as well prepare. I can't do anything reasonable to stop it. I don't have that much control or power - so i have to do what i can do for those around me. That's it.

[defenseman]

I figure that's what enough people wanted, so i might as well prepare. I can't do anything reasonable to stop it. I don't have that much control or power - so i have to do what i can do for those around me. That's it.

Here is the scary part to me. IF it gets nasty, and a group or groups of islamofacists types go "24" on us, ie....WMD of whatever flavor...or something similar, the average american will be screaming bloody murder. What do you think will be the "reaction" of the US government? I'm more interested in the reaction they will take within the continental US from the security aspect...dman

[alkemical]

Here is the scary part to me. IF it gets nasty, and a group or groups of islamofacists types go "24" on us, ie....WMD of whatever flavor...or something similar, the average american will be screaming bloody murder. What do you think will be the "reaction" of the US government? I'm more interested in the reaction they will take within the continental US from the security aspect...dman

I told you. It will be martial law. It will give the gov't the excuse it needs to get total control over the populous in the terms and names of saftey and security. IMO sort of a damned if you do, damned if you don't type of deal.

[defenseman]

Actually - if a WMD is used on american soil - it will be a militarist republic anyway. The gov't will see to that (martial law, etc).

Oh PS Dman - knock off the over-dramaticisms. I don't fear radical muslims: A) Because i don't deem it as serious as the media states. It's not that a problem doesn't exist - but i feel that it's not muslim v. christian/east v. west - it's a bigger issue than that.

B) If i'm not tolerant of the loss of freedoms done under the guise of our own flag, what makes you think i'm going to take it from some other form?

Okay..dman

[defenseman]

I told you. It will be martial law. It will give the gov't the excuse it needs to get total control over the populous in the terms and names of saftey and security. IMO sort of a damned if you do, damned if you don't type of deal.

Yeah, that's what I see also. the "24" series doesn't have them going totally engaged into that route quite yet, fully believe that to be a large "hole" in their storyline. I have no doubt that is exactly what would happen, and a few other gems. Draft being a key one at that point..dman

[alkemical]

Yeah, that's what I see also. the "24" series doesn't have them going totally engaged into that route quite yet, fully believe that to be a large "hole" in their storyline. I have no doubt that is exactly what would happen, and a few other gems. Draft being a key one at that point..dman

It's why socialized medicine WILL happen. It grants access to information that is currently private due to legislation.

The martial law things bothers me - because in turn - the constitution will be illegal and anyone whom supports that - will be an enemy - since it would undermine the gov't's expanded positions.

[defenseman]

It's why socialized medicine WILL happen. It grants access to information that is currently private due to legislation.

The martial law things bothers me - because in turn - the constitution will be illegal and anyone whom supports that - will be an enemy - since it would undermine the gov't's expanded positions.

Yep, at least while martial law is in effect, the constitution would be null and void to a point. The republic would be no longer, and a militaristic government would take charge for sure. Wouldn't like it one bit, however that is where we are headed unless we aren't careful....dman

[yavoon]

Uhm - if i pointed out that allreligionslookthesame, and illustrate how well - it appears that people - exploit allreligionlooksthesame - for their own needs and purposes. I'm sorry you fail to comprehend how - man - has seemingly gone through massacre in the name of kings, crowns, gods and flags.

As a self proclaimed atheist, you are sticking up for viewing religion as shallow - when you do nothing but point out one aspect of fundamentalism on one religion - and reject claims that other religions do the same thing - that wouldn't be... "realitive"

Also - if you fear muslims so much. Why not enlist and go kill a few yourself.

why should I discuss all religions all the time? its pretty apparent that islam is the big barking dog now. if tomorrow islam is gone and some fundy zoroastrians start rampaging the planet in obscene numbers toppling gov'ts and destorying the very values I hold most dear across the globe. perhaps I will have to go after them.

until such time as islam is replaced as the most vile and hatefilled religion I'm afraid ur whine about somehow me giving "equal time" to other religions is just ignorance.

[alkemical]

why should I discuss all religions all the time? its pretty apparent that islam is the big barking dog now. if tomorrow islam is gone and some fundy zoroastrians start rampaging the planet in obscene numbers toppling gov'ts and destorying the very values I hold most dear across the globe. perhaps I will have to go after them.

until such time as islam is replaced as the most vile and hatefilled religion I'm afraid ur whine about somehow me giving "equal time" to other religions is just ignorance.

It's not ignorance, it's unimportance. But go enlist and do your duty to qwell those evil muslims. Do your best, shine those boots! Keep us freeeeee!

[alkemical]

Yep, at least while martial law is in effect, the constitution would be null and void to a point. The republic would be no longer, and a militaristic government would take charge for sure. Wouldn't like it one bit, however that is where we are headed unless we aren't careful....dman


It's why for me - i worry more about what goes on here. The "climate" if you will of the psychology of our culture than i do of radical fundamentalists. Since it's my belief that those in power, will do anything to keep or expand it - i prepare for the worst and do my best.

[defenseman]

It's why for me - i worry more about what goes on here. The "climate" if you will of the psychology of our culture than i do of radical fundamentalists. Since it's my belief that those in power, will do anything to keep or expand it - i prepare for the worst and do my best.

the rhetoric between the two major parties supports that. The average american is no longer the goal, but their vote is now the goal. It's slid in this direction a while now, I'll have to agree with you to a point..dman

*In my opinion, we are rapidly approaching a no-win / no-win scenario. We gotta be very, very careful how we handle it or we slide over the cliff.

[alkemical]

the rhetoric between the two major parties supports that. The average american is no longer the goal, but their vote is now the goal. It's slid in this direction a while now, I'll have to agree with you to a point..dman

*In my opinion, we are rapidly approaching a no-win / no-win scenario. We gotta be very, very careful how we handle it or we slide over the cliff.

I believe it's going to be a Clinton/Oboma ticket for the D's. Clinton's needed to keep the status quo of where things are. Really the Clinton's & Bush's aren't far apart in their agenda that they've accomplished when in office.

[defenseman]

I believe it's going to be a Clinton/Oboma ticket for the D's. Clinton's needed to keep the status quo of where things are. Really the Clinton's & Bush's aren't far apart in their agenda that they've accomplished when in office.

Maybe, maybe not. I'm thinking the winner overall is absolutely dependent on what happens between now and I'd say july 07 in iraq with the troop surge, followed by additional action if it is completed successfully. Broomhillary won't make it, Obama has a shot so to speak. However, I'm convinced a moderate republican will be a serious contender..dman

[Bronco Bob]

I believe it's going to be a Clinton/Oboma ticket for the D's. Clinton's needed to keep the status quo of where things are. Really the Clinton's & Bush's aren't far apart in their agenda that they've accomplished when in office.

I doubt Obama would want to play second fiddle to Clinton.

[alkemical]

I doubt Obama would want to play second fiddle to Clinton.

He will do as he's told..... ;)

[defenseman]

I doubt Obama would want to play second fiddle to Clinton.

If I were Obama, I certianly would not let broomhillery get away with that. She's belongs in a supporting role wouldn't you say?:wiggle: ;D ....dman

*I'm counting on obama's arrogance, gotta come through dude.

[Bronco Bob]

If I were Obama, I certianly would not let broomhillery get away with that. She's belongs in a supporting role wouldn't you say?:wiggle: ;D ....dman



Hillary is not going to be some little Tammy Wynette - Stand By Your Man sort of woman. :cowgirl:

(You older folks should remember that incident)

[fontaine]

u tried to imply that india is living well w/ its muslims. which is pretty absurd considering the hindu's have been taking the brunt of islamic aggression for quite some time.

Tell you what yavoon, we'll play this your way. Since you already presume to know what I think, mean or imply I'll let you respond to your posts as me!

:D

That way I can avoid a boring discussion with you and talk to the adults here (Atlas, Dman) who are interested in a two way conversation while you can mentally masturbate in the corner.

Now run along little fella.

[fontaine]

Because radical islam, or terrorists attacked us on 9/11. Their leaders live in "fear" of these few a$$holes. You tell me how to stop this, dialogue? Same religion , same jihad, they are freaking nuts..dman

I completely reject this line of thinking. I hear what you're saying dman, but if you changed perspective to a Muslim you could make the same arguements about Western Nations who are mostly Christian and had nothing to do with 9/11 but still attacked Iraq/Afghanistan. Nations like Australia, UK, Spain etc all joined forces with the US to liberate Iraq/Afghanistan.

To even a moderate muslim it would appear these Christians in Europe who weren't attacked in 9/11 are just following through on the crusades, only this time it's for oil and influence in the middle east.

I'm not justifying this line of thought but just addressing the fact that blind fear only clouds the issue.

[fontaine]

No I have always said radical Islam.
I have no problem with any religion as long as they mind their own business.
RADICAL ISLAM will need to be adressed soon. They are getting footholds all over the world. After they get Malaysia, Sudan, Somalia, Thailand, Phillipines do we act?? Or do we act before these things happen.

I competely agree. All forms of fundamentalist religion are volatile and dangerous especially when they used that fundamentalism to target other religions/minorities/groups.

However, where I think we do disagree is the level of involvement that you think we as western democracies should engage in trying to stamp out/stop Islam spreading.

If it's control over other nations political/religious moods you are after then you have to be prepared to the backlash especially in the modern age of advanced guerilla/terrorist tactics.

I'm not saying we do nothing, but what's the point in painting a huge bull's eye on yourself when dealing with Islamic fundamentalism?

[cutthemdown]

I believe it's going to be a Clinton/Oboma ticket for the D's. Clinton's needed to keep the status quo of where things are. Really the Clinton's & Bush's aren't far apart in their agenda that they've accomplished when in office.

No way either of those two would be second to the other. It wont happen. Do you follow politics? This sort of thing doesn't happen much because people have egos.

[alkemical]

No way either of those two would be second to the other. It wont happen. Do you follow politics? This sort of thing doesn't happen much because people have egos.

That's my call.

[defenseman]

Hillary is not going to be some little Tammy Wynette - Stand By Your Man sort of woman. :cowgirl:

(You older folks should remember that incident)

She stood by bill, who was a serial adulterer? Why not obama. Obama won't play second fiddle, trust me on that one. Hillary is boring, perfect for the vice presidential role..dman

[Atlas]

I competely agree. All forms of fundamentalist religion are volatile and dangerous especially when they used that fundamentalism to target other religions/minorities/groups.

However, where I think we do disagree is the level of involvement that you think we as western democracies should engage in trying to stamp out/stop Islam spreading.

If it's control over other nations political/religious moods you are after then you have to be prepared to the backlash especially in the modern age of advanced guerilla/terrorist tactics.

I'm not saying we do nothing, but what's the point in painting a huge bull's eye on yourself when dealing with Islamic fundamentalism?

IU'm not saying that we invade all these countries. What I'm saying is that the CIA needs to start(which they might be doing? Who knows they are the CIA of course) active operations inside these countries to keep the radicals from getting conmtrol. These can be simple non violent campaigns. Pro advertising to churches, money to churches. Maybe they could out some radicals clerics and give them some bad publicity. Try to get in with the press simple stuff that can go a long way. You have to start these kind og campaigns before all the rights of the people are taken away from them by the radicals. Malaysia is on the brink right now, but it's not too late, Thailand is pushing towards radicalism too. Sudan and Somalia are unstable places where it is probably a lost cause but the U.S. has to support the other governments in the area. I'm not saying we go to war but the U.S. has to be very active and even proactive in these areas that are at risk.

[Atlas]

I'm not a religious person but I know that the U.S. has to support the church abroad and Christians abroad because if we don't they will fall to the radical Islam causes, and that will be a threat to everyone.
People should have the right to believe in whatever religion they want, they should have the freedom to not believe, and when these freedoms are threatened that is a very dangerous thing, because governments or societies that are run on ideologies are dangerous governments that threaten all that doesn't believe in what they do.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/behead768453_1.jpg

[Bronx33]

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/behead768453_1.jpgCover your face and talk shyt like a bitch

[N.O.Bronco]

IU'm not saying that we invade all these countries. What I'm saying is that the CIA needs to start(which they might be doing? Who knows they are the CIA of course) active operations inside these countries to keep the radicals from getting conmtrol. These can be simple non violent campaigns. Pro advertising to churches, money to churches. Maybe they could out some radicals clerics and give them some bad publicity. Try to get in with the press simple stuff that can go a long way. You have to start these kind og campaigns before all the rights of the people are taken away from them by the radicals. Malaysia is on the brink right now, but it's not too late, Thailand is pushing towards radicalism too. Sudan and Somalia are unstable places where it is probably a lost cause but the U.S. has to support the other governments in the area. I'm not saying we go to war but the U.S. has to be very active and even proactive in these areas that are at risk.

I'm not a religious person but I know that the U.S. has to support the church abroad and Christians abroad because if we don't they will fall to the radical Islam causes, and that will be a threat to everyone.
People should have the right to believe in whatever religion they want, they should have the freedom to not believe, and when these freedoms are threatened that is a very dangerous thing, because governments or societies that are run on ideologies are dangerous governments that threaten all that doesn't believe in what they do.



This is exactly what i was asking you about before and you ignored anwsering and now are bringing it up again. so here let me reiterate my question to you earlier in this thread.

I understand the premise. fanaticals are fanatic and do fanatic things. But to approach as you seem to hint, that it needs to be a war on their religion as opposed to just the extemist element, is pretty, well scary. you start secretlly sending out pro-christan, anti islam or muslim propaganda(since thats actually the people and well that is kinda racist) you are gonna turn every ally in the middle east we have and every single muslim in every country into a martyr and jihaddist overnight. not to mention, piss off the rest of the world just that much more and hate us even further.


explain for the life of me. How an American whose founding fathers explicitlly said no religion in government and were largelly dissenters of religion, now justifies elevating one religion over another? Thus becoming one of the things we revolted against that formed this country. England who was hand in hand with the church presented the founding fathers with a sickening feeling of the promotion of one religion over all else and the trouble of meddling them together in government, and enforcing the code of that religion as law.

Aside form all that how can you think this would have any sort of positive affect? this literally would just be self-justification for all the radical and all the at home moderate muslims who have wondered is this(the war on terror), really on radicals or a war on our religion iteslf(the radicals already firmlly believe this). Cause let me tell you, watch al jazeera english or get a hold of the film Control Room or just read some opinions on websites, or check out some middle eastern psychologists or sociologists. That idea that fear is something that sits in the back of the mind of every muslim. Are we(Americans) whos leaders are christians and we(America) unwavinglly back israel regardless of what the do, fighting terror or just crusading all over again? And it doesnt help when our president said god told him to invade iraq andthat hes on our side(trust e that **** got lots of air time and think time by every muslim everywhere). You do what you suggest, start denouncing islam and trying to in many words, convert them, your now telling the entire muslim world yes we are crusading.

[Garcia Bronco]

**** mohammand and **** Islam

[defenseman]

**** mohammand and **** Islam

I would never insult another man's religion, i will though insult the man for being a terrorist though...dman

[Garcia Bronco]

I would never insult another man's religion, i will though insult the man for being a terrorist though...dman

It's not really a religion. Not worth recognizing it as one any way. But you are correct. I shouldn't have posted it. I was a little hot after reading the tripe of one of the terrorist smpathizers on this thread.

[Atlas]

This is exactly what i was asking you about before and you ignored anwsering and now are bringing it up again. so here let me reiterate my question to you earlier in this thread.



explain for the life of me. How an American whose founding fathers explicitlly said no religion in government and were largelly dissenters of religion, now justifies elevating one religion over another? Thus becoming one of the things we revolted against that formed this country. England who was hand in hand with the church presented the founding fathers with a sickening feeling of the promotion of one religion over all else and the trouble of meddling them together in government, and enforcing the code of that religion as law.

Aside form all that how can you think this would have any sort of positive affect? this literally would just be self-justification for all the radical and all the at home moderate muslims who have wondered is this(the war on terror), really on radicals or a war on our religion iteslf(the radicals already firmlly believe this). Cause let me tell you, watch al jazeera english or get a hold of the film Control Room or just read some opinions on websites, or check out some middle eastern psychologists or sociologists. That idea that fear is something that sits in the back of the mind of every muslim. Are we(Americans) whos leaders are christians and we(America) unwavinglly back israel regardless of what the do, fighting terror or just crusading all over again? And it doesnt help when our president said god told him to invade iraq andthat hes on our side(trust e that **** got lots of air time and think time by every muslim everywhere). You do what you suggest, start denouncing islam and trying to in many words, convert them, your now telling the entire muslim world yes we are crusading.

Dude, You're like talking to a plant, or to wall paper, for christ sakes. I'm worried about radical Islam. Has nothing to do with Chrisianity. I'm worried about Radical Islam taking over countries in Africa and Asia and what we can do to stop it. That's it. OK. Now this conversation is over. I can't take this anymore.

[Atlas]

It's not really a religion. Not worth recognizing it as one any way. But you are correct. I shouldn't have posted it. I was a little hot after reading the tripe of one of the terrorist smpathizers on this thread.

It's a free forum don't worry no one will go to your boss with what you say or anything.

[N.O.Bronco]

Dude, You're like talking to a plant, or to wall paper, for christ sakes. I'm worried about radical Islam. Has nothing to do with Chrisianity. I'm worried about Radical Islam taking over countries in Africa and Asia and what we can do to stop it. That's it. OK. Now this conversation is over. I can't take this anymore.

Ok then please acknowledge my point and either argue back why we need to indoctrine muslims to christianity or agree its a bad idea and move on.

Again i am 100% with you on this that radical islam is a serious problem, i am just trying to discuss with you what I SEE as failed logic to approaching the problem. Quite taking it as being so combative its not meant to be. this is a debate forum i wanted to debate your proposal, suggest where there may be fault so you can improve it or inform me about where i might be wrong.

I think if you would read some of my posts in other threads we are pretty much on the same page with everything, so i am kinda at odds with your anger at me about challenging a minute detail.

[N.O.Bronco]

It's not really a religion. Not worth recognizing it as one any way. But you are correct. I shouldn't have posted it. I was a little hot after reading the tripe of one of the terrorist smpathizers on this thread.


who here has sympathized with terrorists? I assume your reffering to me since you said that crap after my post. Care to explain how you came to that logic, if thats the case?

[alkemical]

who here has sympathized with terrorists? I assume your reffering to me since you said that crap after my post. Care to explain how you came to that logic, if thats the case?

Don't worry I'm a terrorist as well it appears.

[N.O.Bronco]

Don't worry I'm a terrorist as well it appears.

did you really say you support them? or is Garcia again spouting off generalizations based on right wing talking points without regarding the merit of anyone other then D-mans argument?

[alkemical]

did you really say you support them? or is Garcia again spouting off generalizations based on right wing talking points without regarding the merit of anyone other then D-mans argument?

No I disagree with the war, and since it appears that a hanging is due for those whom don't agree - well then i'm in the "against us" camp.

Viva la revolution! I guess.....

[defenseman]

It's a free forum don't worry no one will go to your boss with what you say or anything.


LOL Yep, I'm sure all will stay in house...dman

[defenseman]

No I disagree with the war, and since it appears that a hanging is due for those whom don't agree - well then i'm in the "against us" camp.

Viva la revolution! I guess.....

Mellow out dude. We all know NO ONE here sympathicizes with the terrorist. Some do not care for our tactics against terrorist, some don't believe we belong in iraq, and some don't believe we can win the war in iraq. Some agreed with the action in afghanistan (more like most) and wished we'd had stayed put right there. Some agree with iraq, some believe we can win the war and some believe the tactics used on terrorist are just fine. Lots of opinions, lots of points of view and we here do voice our opinion. It's what it's all about folks. We can be a bit more civil most of the time, but we all get hot under the collar occassionally. it's to be expected. In any case, it's all good. Well, I've done my good deed for the day..dman

[fontaine]

IU'm not saying that we invade all these countries. What I'm saying is that the CIA needs to start(which they might be doing? Who knows they are the CIA of course) active operations inside these countries to keep the radicals from getting conmtrol. These can be simple non violent campaigns. Pro advertising to churches, money to churches. Maybe they could out some radicals clerics and give them some bad publicity. Try to get in with the press simple stuff that can go a long way. You have to start these kind og campaigns before all the rights of the people are taken away from them by the radicals. Malaysia is on the brink right now, but it's not too late, Thailand is pushing towards radicalism too. Sudan and Somalia are unstable places where it is probably a lost cause but the U.S. has to support the other governments in the area. I'm not saying we go to war but the U.S. has to be very active and even proactive in these areas that are at risk.

Right, so just that I understand are you saying freedom of religion in the US but not for other selective nations?

I certainly understand confirming relations with allies based on common backgrounds/beliefs/idealogies but isn't a foreign policy dictated on religious grounds part of the reason why we're in this sh*t in the first place?

All I'm saying is that why create a threat where there isn't one? What direct terrorist threats are you aware of from nations like Malaysia/Thailand to the US? I'm not talking about the crap they do in those nations to their own etc but active military/terrorist operations targeting the US?

And speaking of which aren't nations like Saudi Arabia etc already, to a lrage extent, ruled by Islamic fundamentalists/conservatives? How can they be considered allies then?

[Garcia Bronco]

It's a free forum don't worry no one will go to your boss with what you say or anything.

I still can't believe someone did that.

[yavoon]

Tell you what yavoon, we'll play this your way. Since you already presume to know what I think, mean or imply I'll let you respond to your posts as me!

:D

That way I can avoid a boring discussion with you and talk to the adults here (Atlas, Dman) who are interested in a two way conversation while you can mentally masturbate in the corner.

Now run along little fella.

"The biggest joke of all though has to be all the Western based companies that were tripping over themselves to establish call centers, and out sourcing to the country that has the 2nd largest Islamic population in the world in India.

Someone ought to tell all those muslims in India that instead of living (largely) with other hindus/buddhists/christians in India they should start cutting their heads off and suicide bomb all the call centers and offices of those western companies!"

what u said. this implies that india is living fine w/ its muslim population. which is total bullcrap.

so don't be a lil whining baby to me because u wanted to portray a situation like india in exactly the opposite light of reality.

[yavoon]

http://www.express.co.uk/news_detail.html?sku=1264

here's what u can get w/ a 10% muslim population. probably should only be read by ppl w/o incredibly shallow ignorant and pathetic views on religion. and keep in mind, this is from britain and is about the MCB, a gov't supported very moderate organization. that uses all the flowery ignorant ass language u see on threads like these from the apologists.

"The report, Towards Greater Understanding – Meeting The Needs of Muslim Pupils In State Schools, says all schools should bring in effective bans for all pupils on “un-Islamic activities” like dance classes.

It also wants to limit certain activities during Ramadan. They include science lessons dealing with sex, parents’ evenings, exams and immunisation programmes.

The holy month – when eating and drinking is not allowed in daylight hours – should also see a ban on swimming lessons in case pupils swallow water in
the pool.

When swimming is allowed, boys should wear clothing covering their bodies “from the navel to the neck”, even during single-sex pool sessions, while girls must be covered up completely at all times, apart from the face and hands.

The MCB adds that schools should ensure contact sports, including football and basketball, “are always in single-gender groups”.

Even school trips are targeted in the report, which wants them all to be made single-sex “to encourage greater participation from Muslim pupils”.

It wants Arabic language classes for Muslim pupils, and says the Koran should be recited in music classes. And all schools should ensure they have prayer rooms with washing facilities attached, it says.

In art classes, Muslim children should not be allowed to draw people, as this is forbidden under some interpretations of Islamic law.

And while the MCB insists that all British children should learn about Islam, it wants Muslims to have the right to withdraw their children from RE lessons dealing with Christianity and other faiths."

[Atlas]

Right, so just that I understand are you saying freedom of religion in the US but not for other selective nations?

I certainly understand confirming relations with allies based on common backgrounds/beliefs/idealogies but isn't a foreign policy dictated on religious grounds part of the reason why we're in this sh*t in the first place?

All I'm saying is that why create a threat where there isn't one? What direct terrorist threats are you aware of from nations like Malaysia/Thailand to the US? I'm not talking about the crap they do in those nations to their own etc but active military/terrorist operations targeting the US?

And speaking of which aren't nations like Saudi Arabia etc already, to a lrage extent, ruled by Islamic fundamentalists/conservatives? How can they be considered allies then?

It's like talking to pre schoolers. You ask what direct terrorist threats does Maylasia/Thailand are to the US. None now, If they fall to the Radical Muslims well, they could very well be another Iran. Obviously ideology wise they would be closer to Iran. Saudia Arabia is one of the most dangerous countries in the world. You do realize that 17 of the 19 hijackers were from Saudia Arabia? They only thing holding them back from the extremists is that the ruling family is addicted to our money and they try to keep a tight control of what's going on but even then they suffer from many attacks from the fundementalists there.

Besides it's not like these radical muslims are just running for election in these countries. They are doing violent takeovers, Thousands of Christians are being slaughtered in Sudan and Somalia. They are being forced to convert to Islam. In Malasia it's more suttle but now in the country women that leave the house uncovered are getting beat up and raped.

OK children, class is over. I'm done with this thread.
Just do a google search on Islam attacks around the world. You'll notice that they are at war. It's a war that most of them will deny in public and support in private. It's war that if we don't do something soon this world will look a lot different in 50 years.

[Atlas]

http://www.express.co.uk/news_detail.html?sku=1264

here's what u can get w/ a 10% muslim population. probably should only be read by ppl w/o incredibly shallow ignorant and pathetic views on religion. and keep in mind, this is from britain and is about the MCB, a gov't supported very moderate organization. that uses all the flowery ignorant ass language u see on threads like these from the apologists.

"The report, Towards Greater Understanding – Meeting The Needs of Muslim Pupils In State Schools, says all schools should bring in effective bans for all pupils on “un-Islamic activities” like dance classes.

It also wants to limit certain activities during Ramadan. They include science lessons dealing with sex, parents’ evenings, exams and immunisation programmes.

The holy month – when eating and drinking is not allowed in daylight hours – should also see a ban on swimming lessons in case pupils swallow water in
the pool.

When swimming is allowed, boys should wear clothing covering their bodies “from the navel to the neck”, even during single-sex pool sessions, while girls must be covered up completely at all times, apart from the face and hands.

The MCB adds that schools should ensure contact sports, including football and basketball, “are always in single-gender groups”.

Even school trips are targeted in the report, which wants them all to be made single-sex “to encourage greater participation from Muslim pupils”.

It wants Arabic language classes for Muslim pupils, and says the Koran should be recited in music classes. And all schools should ensure they have prayer rooms with washing facilities attached, it says.

In art classes, Muslim children should not be allowed to draw people, as this is forbidden under some interpretations of Islamic law.

And while the MCB insists that all British children should learn about Islam, it wants Muslims to have the right to withdraw their children from RE lessons dealing with Christianity and other faiths."


That's funny I was at a beach in Saudia Arabia and all these guys were running around enjoying everything, they were in shorts and everything, and every one of the women were in black from head to toe.

[fontaine]

It's like talking to pre schoolers. You ask what direct terrorist threats does Maylasia/Thailand are to the US. None now, If they fall to the Radical Muslims well, they could very well be another Iran. Obviously ideology wise they would be closer to Iran. Saudia Arabia is one of the most dangerous countries in the world. You do realize that 17 of the 19 hijackers were from Saudia Arabia? They only thing holding them back from the extremists is that the ruling family is addicted to our money and they try to keep a tight control of what's going on but even then they suffer from many attacks from the fundementalists there.

Besides it's not like these radical muslims are just running for election in these countries. They are doing violent takeovers, Thousands of Christians are being slaughtered in Sudan and Somalia. They are being forced to convert to Islam. In Malasia it's more suttle but now in the country women that leave the house uncovered are getting beat up and raped.

OK children, class is over. I'm done with this thread.
Just do a google search on Islam attacks around the world. You'll notice that they are at war. It's a war that most of them will deny in public and support in private. It's war that if we don't do something soon this world will look a lot different in 50 years.

Sure I agree with all of this on radical Islam. As I said before I think radicalism in all forms of religion can be dangerous and volatile.

The thing I think we disagree on is the means and methods you've proposed in combating the spread of radicalism. Especially to nations which don't pose a direct threat at this point in time.

I'm very skeptical on foreign policy tyring to dictate and shape the religious/cultural or political atmosphere of 3rd world countries where constant political/religious/social upheavel is the norm. These practices in the past (Iran/Iraq, Vietnam etc) have lead to obvious drawbacks and backlashes.

For me the answer used to be quite clear in how to address militant/radical regimes in the past using sanctions against nations such as Cuba/Iraq and isolating countries such as South Africa when they were under apartheid rule. I'm not so sure now. However, I do believe that direct involvement isn't the best practice in a lot of these situations.

[Atlas]

Sure I agree with all of this on radical Islam. As I said before I think radicalism in all forms of religion can be dangerous and volatile.

The thing I think we disagree on is the means and methods you've proposed in combating the spread of radicalism. Especially to nations which don't pose a direct threat at this point in time.

I'm very skeptical on foreign policy tyring to dictate and shape the religious/cultural or political atmosphere of 3rd world countries where constant political/religious/social upheavel is the norm. These practices in the past (Iran/Iraq, Vietnam etc) have lead to obvious drawbacks and backlashes.

For me the answer used to be quite clear in how to address militant/radical regimes in the past using sanctions against nations such as Cuba/Iraq and isolating countries such as South Africa when they were under apartheid rule. I'm not so sure now. However, I do believe that direct involvement isn't the best practice in a lot of these situations.

OK, that's cool, We have to do something though.

[yavoon]

Sure I agree with all of this on radical Islam. As I said before I think radicalism in all forms of religion can be dangerous and volatile.

The thing I think we disagree on is the means and methods you've proposed in combating the spread of radicalism. Especially to nations which don't pose a direct threat at this point in time.

I'm very skeptical on foreign policy tyring to dictate and shape the religious/cultural or political atmosphere of 3rd world countries where constant political/religious/social upheavel is the norm. These practices in the past (Iran/Iraq, Vietnam etc) have lead to obvious drawbacks and backlashes.

For me the answer used to be quite clear in how to address militant/radical regimes in the past using sanctions against nations such as Cuba/Iraq and isolating countries such as South Africa when they were under apartheid rule. I'm not so sure now. However, I do believe that direct involvement isn't the best practice in a lot of these situations.

maybe we can educate them.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3637&fpsrc=ealert061127

http://www.rickross.com/reference/alqaeda/alqaeda61.html

oops, looks like wealthier, more educated muslims are MORE radical. two things become more statistically likely when a muslim becomes educated.

1)apostasy
2)actually follows his religion, or as u like to say "radicalisation."

"However, his study showed that three-quarters of the Al Qaeda members were from upper middle-class homes and many were married with chilDr.en; 60 were college educated, often in Europe or the United States."

[yavoon]

It's like talking to pre schoolers. You ask what direct terrorist threats does Maylasia/Thailand are to the US. None now, If they fall to the Radical Muslims well, they could very well be another Iran. Obviously ideology wise they would be closer to Iran. Saudia Arabia is one of the most dangerous countries in the world. You do realize that 17 of the 19 hijackers were from Saudia Arabia? They only thing holding them back from the extremists is that the ruling family is addicted to our money and they try to keep a tight control of what's going on but even then they suffer from many attacks from the fundementalists there.

Besides it's not like these radical muslims are just running for election in these countries. They are doing violent takeovers, Thousands of Christians are being slaughtered in Sudan and Somalia. They are being forced to convert to Islam. In Malasia it's more suttle but now in the country women that leave the house uncovered are getting beat up and raped.

OK children, class is over. I'm done with this thread.
Just do a google search on Islam attacks around the world. You'll notice that they are at war. It's a war that most of them will deny in public and support in private. It's war that if we don't do something soon this world will look a lot different in 50 years.

saudi arabia vs al qaeda is a matter of how to conquer the infidels. saudi arabia is doing its best to sponsor the schools/teachings that promote racism, bigotry and hatred. it just can't get the west SO upset that we do something mean to it. while al qaeda doesn't have that problem, and al qaeda looks down on the ruling family as weak and too cozy w/ infidels and such. even though they spend billions to promote islam worldwide.

[alkemical]

Rights and wrongs of Asia's 'war on terror' (http://atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/ID06Ae01.html)

"...Careful intelligence
In Indonesia, meanwhile, careful intelligence has helped pinpoint bomb-making centers in remote corners of Java and uncovered explosives and equipment that could have been used in terrorist attacks. Many of those groomed by JI's alleged al-Qaeda-trained operatives to carry out these attacks have been flushed out and captured or killed. Importantly, Indonesia has tried wherever possible to use legal methods of interdiction, bringing suspects into custody with the intention of putting them on trial, and using lethal force only if unavoidable.

Given the palpable success of the civilian approach to countering terror, it is perhaps not surprising that AFP chief General Hermogenes Esperon has announced a shift in strategy. He told the media early this week that the army will start using bulldozers and tractors rather than tanks to help win the support of locals on Jolo Island - stronghold of the Abu Sayyaf group.

"We'll be doing fewer combat operations, but we're not cutting back on the number of troops because we would need them for engineering, medical and humanitarian activities," Esperon said...."

[alkemical]

Why Huntington and Beck Are Wrong (http://www.counterpunch.org/navarro04072007.html)
In recent years, a public debate has been underway in the Western world, both in academic journals and in the mainstream press, between Samuel Huntington, Professor of Political Science at Harvard University, and Ulrich Beck, Professor of Sociology at Munich University, Germany. The topic is the historical relationship between Christian and Muslim civilizations. While they disagree on some components of this relationship -- Huntington emphasizes the territoriality of the conflict, but Beck questions this aspect -- they agree that there is a continuing conflict between the two civilizations. Huntington attributes this to a conflict of values and a desire for territorial and demographic expansion by both civilizations; Beck attributes it to the frequent humiliation of the Muslim countries caused by the Christian civilizations. This debate has achieved enormous visibility in the popular press.

The problem with Huntington's and Beck's interpretations is that both assume the two civilizations have been in conflict for the past 50 years. But this assumption is wrong. A historical and political analysis of Christian and Muslim civilizations and their interactions shows that political, intellectual, religious, and cultural leaders of both civilizations have collaborated extensively, forging an alliance of civilizations against a common enemy: lay progressive forces, whether socialists, communists, or Arab secular nationalists, that threaten the class interests of the alliance. Thus, the alliance between Christian and Muslim civilizations was actually an alliance among the dominant classes (of both civilizations) that were threatened by progressive movements.


(cont'd on site)

[cutthemdown]

Actually this was the picture he used.
http://www.nbr.co.nz/images/Mohammed_cartoon.jpg

that is deemed offensive to radical muslims and they will kill you because of it.

dude they will kill you just for being an American let alone making fun of that goat ****er mohammed.

[yavoon]

surprised this thread came back. here's more love from moderate caring muslim malaysia.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/04/06/asia/AS-GEN-Malaysia-Custody-Struggle.php

Malaysia's Islamic officials seize baby from mother who sought a Hindu life