1000th + health advice (OT)

[Willynowei]

Hey guys, its my 1000th post so I've decided to start a thread about ME LOL

In all seriousness, if anyone here knows their supplements i could use some advice. I've lifted for a while now (5 years), but I've always stayed away from anything outside of protein shakes.

Building up muscle mass is one thing, trying to go from 9% body fat to 5% cut abs is another. I got down to 6.7% but couldn't hold for very long. So now I'm thinking about a little help to get me there and keep me there.

Today, I went to GNC and bought a 2 month supply of Hydroxycut. Now, the guy there told me to take the daily dosage, but I'm not trying to supress apetite here. I'm trying to maximize work out efficiency.

Should i just take the dosage before a work out? Anyone here big on this kind of stuff? The guy said its diaretic and i have to watch what i eat if i don't want to give them more of my money for vitamin pills.

I'm thinking just Hydroxycut before the workout, and Protein after, how effective is that combo? Is a fat loss cycle possible during a muscle gain cycle? I would like to lose 5-8 pounds of fat, but gain 10 pounds in place of that. My current work out is 2.5 miles followed by a 40 min lifting session of two muscle groups. The GNC guy told me to get it up to 5 miles... I'm not sure i have the time to run that much per day.

Thanks in advance for the advice, maners.

[scorpio]

You're at 9% bodyfat and you don't have cut abs? are you sure?

Anyway getting to sub-7% and staying there is pretty hard and not really very healthy for most people. If you really want to get super shredded, I would recommend hiring a well-known coach/trainer like Swolecat, who will give you the diet plan and training info and personal consultation.

Also, running is not an ideal exercise for fat loss, it gets your heart-rate too high out of the optimal fat burning zone and actually can cause you to digest muscle to support the higher energy demands. Try something that keeps you at 65-75% of your MHR, like walking up an incline on a treadmill for 45 minutes.

[Willynowei]

You're at 9% bodyfat and you don't have cut abs? are you sure?

Anyway getting to sub-7% and staying there is pretty hard and not really very healthy for most people. If you really want to get super shredded, I would recommend hiring a well-known coach/trainer like Swolecat, who will give you the diet plan and training info and personal consultation.

Also, running is not an ideal exercise for fat loss, it gets your heart-rate too high out of the optimal fat burning zone and actually can cause you to digest muscle to support the higher energy demands. Try something that keeps you at 65-75% of your MHR, like walking up an incline on a treadmill for 45 minutes.

The machine i use may not be accurate, it just asks for weight,height, age etc, and I grip it probably for a heart rate measurement. I guess "cut-abs" is relative, i mean you can definitely see the six pack (for discussion purposes, not to brag lol). But, I'm trying to be more cut and more defined.

Glad you brought up the heart rate, wow i did not know that past the fat burning zone, that would happen. No i definitely do not want to lose muscle, taking Hydroxycut bumps up my heart rate, so it could have the opposite affect I'm looking for?

I'm thinking cardio bike instead of running?

Also why is lower than 7% bad? I hear that a lot but I have friends who are there, they seem perfectly healthy, what is weaker? Immune system?

[MileHighMagic]

I have added swimming to my workouts. I have never been a swimmer but it was something new to keep me interested in going to the gym. I love it! I find myself looking forward to going now. Another thing that helps me as far as running goes is listening to my ipod. I couldn't make it through the tough parts of the run witout it. Good luck!

[Willynowei]

Also, scorpio, i think since i lift, it skews everything. If someone is 5'10 155 lbs and 9% body fat, they could have much more cut abs than a guy with the same body fat percentage but 30lbs heavier.

I have excess muscle from lifting and I think it throws it off. For me to have similar abs as a friend of mine who is at 10%, i think i need to get to about half that number.

[Willynowei]

I have added swimming to my workouts. I have never been a swimmer but it was something new to keep me interested in going to the gym. I love it! I find myself looking forward to going now. Another thing that helps me as far as running goes is listening to my ipod. I couldn't make it through the tough parts of the run witout it. Good luck!

Hey dude, swimming is great, thanks for the advice. I never got into it enough because i was never very good at it and for some reason i get a lot of cramps and my calfs lock up in the water.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Hey guys, its my 1000th post so I've decided to start a thread about ME LOL
In all seriousness, if anyone here knows their supplements i could use some advice. I've lifted for a while now (5 years), but I've always stayed away from anything outside of protein shakes.
Building up muscle mass is one thing, trying to go from 9% body fat to 5% cut abs is another. I got down to 6.7% but couldn't hold for very long. So now I'm thinking about a little help to get me there and keep me there.
Today, I went to GNC and bought a 2 month supply of Hydroxycut. Now, the guy there told me to take the daily dosage, but I'm not trying to supress apetite here. I'm trying to maximize work out efficiency.
Should i just take the dosage before a work out? Anyone here big on this kind of stuff? The guy said its diaretic and i have to watch what i eat if i don't want to give them more of my money for vitamin pills.
I'm thinking just Hydroxycut before the workout, and Protein after, how effective is that combo? Is a fat loss cycle possible during a muscle gain cycle? I would like to lose 5-8 pounds of fat, but gain 10 pounds in place of that. My current work out is 2.5 miles followed by a 40 min lifting session of two muscle groups. The GNC guy told me to get it up to 5 miles... I'm not sure i have the time to run that much per day.

Thanks in advance for the advice, maners.You're under 10% and don't have abs? I wouldn't recommend trying to get to 5% BF that's just plain unhealthy for the most part. Doing a lot of cardio will hender your muscle gain too.

I was able to gain muscle mass with just cycling creatine. Where I could get 3 sets of 8 reps without it, I could get 3 sets of 10 with it.

I'm older than you so I do add cardio with my weight workouts to maintain where I'm at.

[Rock Chalk]

I cant help man. Im under 5% body fat and I eat as much as I want, whatever I want. High metabolism and genes.

[Jason in LA]

At 9% body fat you will have definition in your abs, but you won't be cut. When you flex you should look cut, but when standing relaxed you won't look cut. I think that's what he is going for.

I've never heard anybody say that being at 5% BF is unhealthy. That doesn't even make sense to me. I've heard being under 2% is unhealthy, but never 5%. I'd say that if you are eating and working out properly, and you are at 5% BF, you are the definition of health.

I would not hire a trainer. Become your own personal trainer. All the information is out there for you to do it yourself.

Getting cut is about eating right more than anything. That plays a larger role than the workouts. But make sure you still workout right. Lefting weights and running. Walking isn't going to do much.

I got tired of the long jogs (40-45 minutes), so I switched to sprint workouts, and the lbs came off quick. I knew that it was mostly body fat because I was getting ripped. I got down to about 7% BF, and my upper abs were defined when I relaxed. But the lower abs are the hardest thing. That's the trouble area for men.

As for hydoxycut, I've used similar products, but only before a workout. I like to workout early in the morning, and I had a hard time waking up and doing it. But those stimulants will wake you up quick. After I took one I was ready to workout in 15 minutes. Use them properly. I wouldn't take them when I wasn't working out.

If you are on a low fat diet, make sure you take some flaxseed oil. Doesn't taste good, but it makes up for the lack of fat in your diet, and it is the type of fat that promotes fat loss.

I'd say it's pretty much impossible to lose a high amount of BF while gaining a high amount of muscle. Lose the fat, then gain the muscle.

As for 5 miles running, I've always heard that you should keep it to under 45 minutes. Over that time and you'll be stripping away too much muscle. But I like to do sprints, which does not strip away muscle. It strengthens the body, which will burn more fat.

[watermock]

I'm 35 percent body fat and insulated.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

At 9% body fat you will have definition in your abs, but you won't be cut. When you flex you should look cut, but when standing relaxed you won't look cut. I think that's what he is going for.

I've never heard anybody say that being at 5% BF is unhealthy. That doesn't even make sense to me. .Ask any health professional. Even professional body builders won't stay there any longer than they have to.

[Willynowei]

Good points Jason.

I've heard sprinting is very good as well, interval sprints with jogging in between. But can I sprint after taking the Hydroxycut? Would my heart rate be dangerous?

Also, when you came off the pills, did your body gain any weight back? I don't want to gain a dependancy on anything.

Plus, where did you sprint? Its winter and cold here in Jersey, no where to run except indoors. I was thinking maybe going to an indoor basketball court but they might be taken up still.

[Jason in LA]

Ask any health professional. Even professional body builders won't stay there any longer than they have to.


When I was on the track team at UCLA, my freshman year we took our first BF test. I was at 7% and was called fatboy for the rest of the year. Only two guys on the team were above 6%, and only about four above 5%. The guys who went on to become pros stayed at those levels.

I'll look into it, but I seriously doubt that being around 5% BF is unhealthy. I understand that having BF levels too low is unhealthy, but not at 5%. That would mean that everybody who walks around with a good set of abs is having health problems.

[Jason in LA]

Good points Jason.

I've heard sprinting is very good as well, interval sprints with jogging in between. But can I sprint after taking the Hydroxycut? Would my heart rate be dangerous?

Also, when you came off the pills, did your body gain any weight back? I don't want to gain a dependancy on anything.

Plus, where did you sprint? Its winter and cold here in Jersey, no where to run except indoors. I was thinking maybe going to an indoor basketball court but they might be taken up still.

When I do sprints I'm doing track workouts that I did during my track career. At the moment I'm running 50s up to 300s. I run them all out, and usually walk inbetween sprints.

I workout on USC's track in the mornings (3 times a week), and sometimes at night if I don't get there in the mornings. That's the great thing about So Cal, year round great weather. I do not run on back to back days anymore. I'm getting kind of old (30 years old), and it's hard to recover and come back a day later. So I run Tuesday, Thursday, and Sunday. I do resistants training on the other days. Twice a week upper body, and twice a week lower body.

As for Hydroxycut before sprints, I've taken a stimulant before sprints a number of times without a problem, but you may want to check with a doctor or specialist. I don't want to give you bad advice here. I'll just say that I've never had a single problem because I've always followed the directions on the lable. Never take more than one dose.

I can't really say what happens when I stop taking the pills. Usually when I'm not taking them, I'm not working out...and probably not eating right. So any weight gain would be due to not putting in the work. I don't think I've ever been dependent on the stimulants beacuse I have never had a problem not taking them.

Read as much as possible so you know exactly what to do and what to take. One magazine that is good for non-bodybuilders is Muscle & Fitness. Ironman, Muscle Mag, Flex, and a few others are geared toward the hard core bodybuilder, so I don't read them. Muscle & Fitness takes a bodybuilding approach, but it is geared toward the everyday guy who is trying to get in shape.

[scorpio]

The machine i use may not be accurate, it just asks for weight,height, age etc, and I grip it probably for a heart rate measurement. I guess "cut-abs" is relative, i mean you can definitely see the six pack (for discussion purposes, not to brag lol). But, I'm trying to be more cut and more defined.

Glad you brought up the heart rate, wow i did not know that past the fat burning zone, that would happen. No i definitely do not want to lose muscle, taking Hydroxycut bumps up my heart rate, so it could have the opposite affect I'm looking for?

I'm thinking cardio bike instead of running?

Also why is lower than 7% bad? I hear that a lot but I have friends who are there, they seem perfectly healthy, what is weaker? Immune system?

Is the fat-measuring device you use called an Omron? If so, my nickname for it is 'The Laugh Machine.' :) Bioimpedence devices (Omron, Tanita scales, etc.) don't do a very good job of measuring bodyfat when you get down around 10% or below. Buy a pair of bodyfat calipers and learn how to use them, or have a trainer do a skinfold test on you, it'll give you much more accurate numbers. DEXA scans are pretty solid too, but kind of expensive.

The hydroxycut is okay, but I'm not really keen on fat loss supplements that don't have an ECA stack (ephedra, Aspirin, Caffeine) and since you're already at relatively low bf% you could probably do without it altogether or just take some No-Doz for the same energy effect.

One thing you should probably take a look at is your diet. There's an adage that "Abs are made in the kitchen", meaning that you can train like a madman but you're wasting the effort if you don't have the nutritional support to back it up. As much as you train already, I bet a few dietary tweaks could get you where you want to be without having to kill yourself in the gym. If you don't already, try to get most of your calories from "clean" foods - lean meats, healthy fats, fruits and veggies. Maybe cut your carbs down to around 100g a day, centered mostly around your workouts.

You might also figure out your BMR, basal metabolic rate, which is essentially the number of calories you burn in a day, and then add the calories burned from exercise to find your total caloric expenditure. Subtract about 500 calories from that total and make that your goal for the day. Keep on that for a few weeks and track your progress, if it isn't satisfactory then drop it another 500 calories. This way you will still lose fat without killing your metabolism.

Lower than 7% isn't necessarily bad in itself, but many people find it difficult to maintain. When you start over-training and under-eating trying to keep under some arbitrary number and getting sick as a result is when I would get concerned. Your mileage may very, some people do walk around at ~5% year round and have few problems.


Anyway just some random thoughts, good luck!

[Fusionfrontman]

The problem with keeping your body fat levels under 5% and NOT competing is that your body eventually wears down. Granted professional body builders are dieting down for 3-5 shows a year, it does take its toll on the body after a while. Look at guys such as Jay Cutler (the other one) and Ronnie Coleman who are in their thirties and ronnie being 42 i believe only compete once a year.

i hope noone takes this offensively but being a track runner and weight training and keeping ur bodyfat% under 5 is totally different. Most track atheletes, and again i express this is not to be taken offensively, are very lean and skinny while those aiming to gain quality lean muscle mass and slowly, (key word) strip away fat are totally different.

You have to realize that while trying to gain weight staying under 5% CAN BE unhealthy. In order to diet down you must take into account what your trying to accomplish. You are limiting in your calories taken in so that you can strip away fat. Anyone who has been on a strict diet can vouche for you that your not pleasant tobe around b/c if your restricting your caloric intake you are going to be more tired and sluggish. Staying that low all year long just phsyically, along with mentally drains you and you will not be able to lift the poundage that you normally wouldbe able to.

Another big problem i see you're having is your doing cardio BEFORE your weight lifting. NEVER EVER EVER do that unless you want to sacrifice your strength/lifting gains. I can go into detail about that, but it makes sense if you just think about it. You're burning so many calories before your intense workout has even begun, and you need calories for energy.

Also if you're trying to add LEAN muscle mass, you should not be running for more than 35-45 minutes at a moderate pace due to the fact that as Jason LA said, your body will turn to a catabolic state, where your body is burning muscle rather than fat for energy.

[gotfredson]

I recently graduated from University of Wyoming with a B.S. in Kinesiology. And it has been documented that in order to get cut abs your body fat must be less then 6%.

[Jason in LA]

The problem with keeping your body fat levels under 5% and NOT competing is that your body eventually wears down. Granted professional body builders are dieting down for 3-5 shows a year, it does take its toll on the body after a while. Look at guys such as Jay Cutler (the other one) and Ronnie Coleman who are in their thirties and ronnie being 42 i believe only compete once a year.

i hope noone takes this offensively but being a track runner and weight training and keeping ur bodyfat% under 5 is totally different. Most track atheletes, and again i express this is not to be taken offensively, are very lean and skinny while those aiming to gain quality lean muscle mass and slowly, (key word) strip away fat are totally different.

You have to realize that while trying to gain weight staying under 5% CAN BE unhealthy. In order to diet down you must take into account what your trying to accomplish. You are limiting in your calories taken in so that you can strip away fat. Anyone who has been on a strict diet can vouche for you that your not pleasant tobe around b/c if your restricting your caloric intake you are going to be more tired and sluggish. Staying that low all year long just phsyically, along with mentally drains you and you will not be able to lift the poundage that you normally wouldbe able to.

Another big problem i see you're having is your doing cardio BEFORE your weight lifting. NEVER EVER EVER do that unless you want to sacrifice your strength/lifting gains. I can go into detail about that, but it makes sense if you just think about it. You're burning so many calories before your intense workout has even begun, and you need calories for energy.

Also if you're trying to add LEAN muscle mass, you should not be running for more than 35-45 minutes at a moderate pace due to the fact that as Jason LA said, your body will turn to a catabolic state, where your body is burning muscle rather than fat for energy.


I can agree with some of the stuff that you posted.

It also goes to show that if you ask 10 different people you will get 10 different answers.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

When I was on the track team at UCLA, my freshman year we took our first BF test. I was at 7% and was called fatboy for the rest of the year. Only two guys on the team were above 6%, and only about four above 5%. The guys who went on to become pros stayed at those levels.

I'll look into it, but I seriously doubt that being around 5% BF is unhealthy. I understand that having BF levels too low is unhealthy, but not at 5%. That would mean that everybody who walks around with a good set of abs is having health problems.
No, it doesn't mean everyone below 5% would be "unhealthy".

I shouldn't have said any health professional but most will frown if you mention under 5%. And your body structure and makeup play a part in that too. Track athletes are a different animal in that they aren't cut at extremely low BF percentages for a very long period in their in lives, usually (and are thinner by nature). If you lurk around in misc.fitness.weights (like this thread (http://tinyurl.com/2jmtzm)) you can get a lot of info from some of the lifters (some pro) that hang there occasionally.

[Willynowei]

Fusion so, that brings up a dillema for me.

Okay, so here comes all the numbers lol...

I'm 5"11, 177lbs. Last time i checked, i was below 10%, but I could be wrong.

Now i want to drop 3% body fat. But I want to be right around my current weight. I agree that running before lifting is a bad idea, it would explain that since I've started this, I've failed to make real progress.

But how should i do this? 5-10 min warm up on the treds, then i go into lifting? And then do i run afterwards? Because cardio takes time, atleast 20 minutes, and thats 20 more minutes after lifting with no carb or protein intake.

If i choose to go into cycles, which cycle should i do first? Fat loss or muscle gain? And how long should each cycle be? I was thinking of a lifting for 60 days untill april then all out fat loss there.

Just it feels like a contradiction to me. I want fat loss but i want the muscle gain. I can't have both, but which one first?

[Jason in LA]

I'd say do the cardio on a different day.

Choose the cycle that suits you the best. If you really want to drop that body fat, then do that first.

[Fusionfrontman]

Willy,

No matter what it takes more energy to go through a half ass workout than doin cardio. Your basically (i dont like using this term but) wasting your time if you plan on doing ANY cardio before you lift. Most people want to get cut up, dry out, peeled,ripped, strip their fat, whatever you call it for the summer, so it would be realistic to in the next 2 months increase your caloric intake and concentrate on making weight lifting gains using diff techniques to maximize your lifting totals thus increasing your muscle mass.

The thing with this is you will gain some weight that will be a little fat, as im sure you already know this. Don't worry about it, as long as your sticking to whatever diet your on, as I'm sure you will, you will be fine and continue to make progress. Lean meats, chicken chicken chicken, ect. Pack on the size, so come late april beg may you can start dieting down and incorporating cardio into your regimine so that by july you will be leaner. I feel this is the best way to "get the best of both worlds" so to speak.

So you know if you are dieting down below 5% or in that area you will feel weaker most likely, so it would not make sense to, after dieting down to 5%, trying adding muscle mass as your lifting #'s will be slightly lower than normal.

Out of curiosity what kind of protein shakes are you taking and was curious if you ever looked into muscle milk? No im not endorsed by them hahaha or anything but I tried them and not only do they taste great they worked for me. around 360 calories mixed with water, 600 or so with non fat milk. 32 g protein and 12 g carbs. only thing that may deter you away from it is the 18 g of total fat. I can honestly tell you i didnt gain much to any body fat from it tho, cuss they are in the form of MCT's, which are basically fats that your body converts and uses for energy rather than storage. So in reality your burning those fats your consuming while your body absorbs the rest of the nutrients your getting from the shake.

Just some random tidbits i thought i'd help ya with. be more than happy to help as much as i can if you wanna PM me or what not. I just dont want this thread to fade out and never check it again due to this not being a bodybuilding board or anything you know? Hope some of that helped

[Fusionfrontman]

N yea, everyone wants to be able to loose fat while adding quality size. If we could tho do it significantly enough the world would be filled with Ronnie colemans lol

[Willynowei]

Thanks for the help fusion, and everyone else, scorpio, Jason, BB.

Don't want to sound too cliche, but the time for talking is done. I know well enough that abs are never about talking haha. Will get back to this thread sometime in June and report results ;)

[Fusionfrontman]

Best of luck man

[sirhcyennek81]

My dad would drop below 7% body fat and get sick, like flus and fevers, we then had to worry about hypothermia with him because of it. He had a hard time getting warm and staying there. You should stick with what is comfortable. I started running on the 1st of february, this might sound wierd, but I actually like the ache involved in muscle work.


:Broncos:

[Kaylore]

You're at 9% bodyfat and you don't have cut abs? are you sure?

Anyway getting to sub-7% and staying there is pretty hard and not really very healthy for most people. If you really want to get super shredded, I would recommend hiring a well-known coach/trainer like Swolecat, who will give you the diet plan and training info and personal consultation.

Also, running is not an ideal exercise for fat loss, it gets your heart-rate too high out of the optimal fat burning zone and actually can cause you to digest muscle to support the higher energy demands. Try something that keeps you at 65-75% of your MHR, like walking up an incline on a treadmill for 45 minutes.
That's exactly what I was about to say. You should have skin that looks like cellophane at 6% body fat. I think you aren't calculating it correctly. Your abs should be showing up between 17 and 14% body fat and any lower isn't healthy for an adult man.

The reason it's not good is because there is an assortment of lipids that you need to have in your system "ready to go" to maintain health. It also increases potential for injury.

Anyway, have one of the gym professionals administer a test for you. Don't do your own tests or it will come out wrong. That will give you a better idea of where you need to be. If you can get into one of those air chambers, it would give you a really clear idea.

There are also a few things to consider in your quest for this. The first would be to get the number out of your head and focus on the visual results you want. Too much focus on the fat percentage puts emphasis on the wrong objective.

Some of what you're fighting is genetic. Some men have abdominals that are just naturally outstanding and require less to reveal them. My friend is a health nut and he has to work and work to get his to show up at all. He probably has one of the lowest percentages of anyone I know and he still can't get much definition.

The other thing I would consider is your ab regimen. A lot of guys try to do too much. I would do fewer abs and use a weighted crunch machine so you can focus on mass increase and less on tone. I'd also increase the rest period between the workouts to give them as much time to grow as possible. That would probably help quite a bit.

Hope that helps.