Immigration--I might vote democrat

[Stormontheplains]

If nothing in the next two years are done about immigration, the GOP will lose my straight ticket votes. I absolutely hate the democrats, and I premise that with this, If John Edwards came to speak in my town, I would spit on him. I am sick to death of living in Mexico, sorry I mean Kansas. On the day of the walkout, all I saw were Mexican flags waving. The only flag flying should be the US flag period. My son is a freshman, his required reading for English class was a story of a man who illegally entered the country, picked strawberries, and the graduated from college. What happened to Shakespeare, what happened to killer angles. My 6 year old believes that Mexico is a great country, especially when he celebrates cinco de mayo at school. I am fed up and done. I love GW, The GOP, and now willing to let them go over this issue. I know alot of people who will jump ship as well, could be very very bad for the GOP in these hardcore red states.

[55CrushEm]

If nothing in the next two years are done about immigration, the GOP will lose my straight ticket votes. I absolutely hate the democrats, and I premise that with this, If John Edwards came to speak in my town, I would spit on him. I am sick to death of living in Mexico, sorry I mean Kansas. On the day of the walkout, all I saw were Mexican flags waving. The only flag flying should be the US flag period. My son is a freshman, his required reading for English class was a story of a man who illegally entered the country, picked strawberries, and the graduated from college. What happened to Shakespeare, what happened to killer angles. My 6 year old believes that Mexico is a great country, especially when he celebrates cinco de mayo at school. I am fed up and done. I love GW, The GOP, and now willing to let them go over this issue. I know alot of people who will jump ship as well, could be very very bad for the GOP in these hardcore red states.

I hate GW's stance on immigration. In case nobody has figured it out over the last 6 years......GW is NOT a real conservative. That's why I don't like him. He does not share my views on most issues.

But if you think that our immigration policies will get better with a liberal in the White House, you're wrong.

[Garcia Bronco]

There is no black and white on this. Last night he said we need a solution to the illegals we have here, and we need to protect our borders(he called again to double the Border patrol as well as developing more technology. He also again asked for a worker program, which I agree with. We have to provide a legal means for our neighbors to vome here, work, and pay taxes.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

If nothing in the next two years are done about immigration, the GOP will lose my straight ticket votes. I absolutely hate the democrats, and I premise that with this, If John Edwards came to speak in my town, I would spit on him. I am sick to death of living in Mexico, sorry I mean Kansas. On the day of the walkout, all I saw were Mexican flags waving. The only flag flying should be the US flag period. My son is a freshman, his required reading for English class was a story of a man who illegally entered the country, picked strawberries, and the graduated from college. What happened to Shakespeare, what happened to killer angles. My 6 year old believes that Mexico is a great country, especially when he celebrates cinco de mayo at school. I am fed up and done. I love GW, The GOP, and now willing to let them go over this issue. I know alot of people who will jump ship as well, could be very very bad for the GOP in these hardcore red states.

Who exactly are you threatening in this thinly veiled tirade? Ha!

[Garcia Bronco]

Who exactly are you threatening in this thinly veiled tirade? Ha!

I believe he said he'd spit on an ambulance chaser...I'd join him....well...maybe not spit....but I would haze him aloud

[Stormontheplains]

I am all about the guest worker program. That is one thing that Canada has done correctly.

[yavoon]

There is no black and white on this. Last night he said we need a solution to the illegals we have here, and we need to protect our borders(he called again to double the Border patrol as well as developing more technology. He also again asked for a worker program, which I agree with. We have to provide a legal means for our neighbors to vome here, work, and pay taxes.

a big problem is the born here=resident thing. u can't bring in workers and expect them to leave w/ that policy. they'll just pop out some anchor babies and sit on u in court for 5 years.

[Garcia Bronco]

a big problem is the born here=resident thing. u can't bring in workers and expect them to leave w/ that policy. they'll just pop out some anchor babies and sit on u in court for 5 years.

If I had my way they'd take the kids with them

[yavoon]

If I had my way they'd take the kids with them

yah well the kids dont have to leave, and its morally very questionable to separate parents from kids. there is no good real world solution to marry guest worker and born here=citizen. u can do it and just accept that that is what a lot of ppl are gna do to u, but thats not a solution so much as putting up w/ the problem.

[defenseman]

If nothing in the next two years are done about immigration, the GOP will lose my straight ticket votes. I absolutely hate the democrats, and I premise that with this, If John Edwards came to speak in my town, I would spit on him. I am sick to death of living in Mexico, sorry I mean Kansas. On the day of the walkout, all I saw were Mexican flags waving. The only flag flying should be the US flag period. My son is a freshman, his required reading for English class was a story of a man who illegally entered the country, picked strawberries, and the graduated from college. What happened to Shakespeare, what happened to killer angles. My 6 year old believes that Mexico is a great country, especially when he celebrates cinco de mayo at school. I am fed up and done. I love GW, The GOP, and now willing to let them go over this issue. I know alot of people who will jump ship as well, could be very very bad for the GOP in these hardcore red states.

the DEMS control the House. Look their way if you would...dman

[Rock Chalk]

a big problem is the born here=resident thing. u can't bring in workers and expect them to leave w/ that policy. they'll just pop out some anchor babies and sit on u in court for 5 years.

I agree with this. In Japan if neither parent is Japanese citizen, then the child is not a Japanese citizen.

It helps in their Korean immigration policy a great deal.

[Dudeskey]

I hate GW's stance on immigration. In case nobody has figured it out over the last 6 years......GW is NOT a real conservative. That's why I don't like him. He does not share my views on most issues.

But if you think that our immigration policies will get better with a liberal in the White House, you're wrong.

??? well, if Tancredo had his way on that issue I wouldn't mind. On the flipside of that, Calderon needs to get his **** together down there so people don't have a reason to leave (like poverty, hint hint).

[Garcia Bronco]

yah well the kids dont have to leave, and its morally very questionable to separate parents from kids. there is no good real world solution to marry guest worker and born here=citizen. u can do it and just accept that that is what a lot of ppl are gna do to u, but thats not a solution so much as putting up w/ the problem.

I didn't say seperate them from their kids...I said send them with them. Just being born within the political borders of this country should not make anyone a Citizen anymore.

[Jetmeck]

I am all about the guest worker program. That is one thing that Canada has done correctly.


Sure let's invite a few million MORE over that never go home. No thanks. We have guest worker programs already, several of them.

This issue is common sense which I realize GW has little of. I hate the DEMS for being on his side oN this too.

You build a fence, put men with guns who can protect that border. Then you raise the fines and prison terms for the individuals who seek to circumvent the law by hiring
illegal aliens because they refuse to pay an AMERICAN A DECENT WAGE. Easy enough our current laws were being enforced properly we wouldn't be having this conversation.

BIG BUSINESS wants cheap undocumented labor. Thus GW does too because he is all about what is best for big business even if it screws every middle class american along the way. I'd like to put a boot.....well you know what I mean. :wiggle:

[yavoon]

stopping illegal immigration really starts from w/in, the last thing u do should be the fence. the first thing is u need to create, say an entire division of the fbi that just hunts down and fines businesses for illegal immigrants.

then create an entire court network(like small claims court) that can process illegal's quickly enough. u also need laws against illegal's getting welfare and other services.

because remember welfare in the US is vastly superior to having a job in a lot of places in mexico(and the world). ppl think illegal's come here for jobs, and thats somewhat true, but even w/o jobs they'd come. there are unemployed illegal problems across the US, but being unemployed in america beats the **** outta mexico.

[yavoon]

I didn't say seperate them from their kids...I said send them with them. Just being born within the political borders of this country should not make anyone a Citizen anymore.

well then thats another big obstacle u'd need to hurdle. ppl feel attached to that ideology, and u'd get a ****storm of near unparalleled proportions from the bleeding heart left if u tried to get rid of that.

[Jetmeck]

BS....I'll give comprehensive immigration reform. Build a fence and put the people who hire them in jail. Guaranteed results.

[Jetmeck]

Send the kids home with parents, another BS argument.

[RocBronc]

Send the kids home with parents, another BS argument.

Why is it BS??? I'm not saying it is or it isn't, you can't just argue against something by saying it's BS... Please be more specific or expect people to give very little thought to your point of view.

[yavoon]

Send the kids home with parents, another BS argument.

u can't send the kids home u dumbass, they're american citizens. the only thing u can try and do is convince the parents to take the kids home.

[smalltowngrll]

You build a fence, put men with guns who can protect that border. Then you raise the fines and prison terms for the individuals who seek to circumvent the law by hiring
illegal aliens because they refuse to pay an AMERICAN A DECENT WAGE. Easy enough our current laws were being enforced properly we wouldn't be having this conversation.



Don't get me wrong, I"m not advocating undocumented illegals working. But, the problem goes deeper than a company not wanting to pay a decent wage. The problem also lies with our system of Unemployment and the fact that a lot of Americans feel it is their right to live off of the government and NOT work. There are many out there that know how to "work the system" and get away with not working, or working very little. They also work the "injuries" as well. Not that there aren't companies out there that don't want to pay higher wages...there are plenty of those, too.

We are talking about a culture here. "The government owes me" attitude is one that runs thick and deep in the American culture. What happened to the days where one went to work and worked hard and were paid a fair wage? It seems that somewhere along the line someone always feels cheated.

[orinjkrush]

demoncrats want cheap illegal votes
republish*ts want cheap illegal backs to break

if $$$ is the reason for coming, then $$$ will be the solution as well, not fences.

Eliminate/contrain/GOVERN the $$$ exchanges and the process will settle down.

I think you should only get OUT of the benefits systems what you put IN. In that case, come, work, pay taxes and get back out ONLY what you put in.

[Crushaholic]

Very few people in Washington have the testicular fortitude to actually tackle the immigration issue. Changing political affiliations MIGHT make you feel better, but I think you'll remember the reason(s) to vote GOP in the first place and come back...

[smalltowngrll]

I think you should only get OUT of the benefits systems what you put IN. In that case, come, work, pay taxes and get back out ONLY what you put in.

Yup, I agree. They put into our Seocial Security and medicare system...but, most know how to get out of pay Federal and State taxes!

I do belive, however, that if we did make a sweep on illegals, we'd also have a huge decrease in Social Security and Medicare programs. Illegals with false documents pay A LOT into those programs and never take out of those programs.

[Crushaholic]

This is a good thread to include this news story...

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2007/01/24/D8MRJNKO0.html

LOS ANGELES (AP) -- Hundreds of illegal immigrants arrested over the past week in one of the biggest U.S. immigration stings have already been deported, but some are being held for possible criminal prosecution.
Federal authorities announced Tuesday the results of a weeklong series of raids in the Los Angeles metropolitan area that targeted illegal immigrants who had previously been deported for crimes or defied final deportation orders.

Of the 761 people arrested in a five-county region since Jan. 17, more than 450 have already been removed from the country, according to U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

More than half of those arrested in the sweeps were already in jail and are being turned over to federal authorities as their sentences expire, an ICE official said.

At least one person, however, was hit with a criminal case instead of being placed in civil deportation proceedings.

Erik Omar Galindo-Vazquez, a Mexican national taken in during the sweeps in Orange County, was charged with illegal re-entry to the United States after felony deportation _ a federal crime than can carry up to 20 years in prison.

ICE officials said Galindo-Vazquez was deported in October 2005 after being detained in Arizona and was convicted six years earlier in Orange County for assault with a deadly weapon, a felony charge.

While federal law makes it a crime to enter the country illegally, only a fraction of the tens of thousands of illegal immigrants caught every year are ever prosecuted under criminal laws. There just aren't enough agents, prosecutors and prison space.

So authorities go after serious offenders such as Galindo-Vazquez, whose wrap sheets combine past deportations with convictions for crimes such as assault, murder and drug trafficking.

"We have to focus on the worst of the worst," said Jim Hayes, director of the Los Angeles field office of ICE, whose agents are readying about 12 other cases for criminal prosecution stemming from the sweeps. "We can't prosecute every single individual we come across."

[defenseman]

A guest worker program is where it will end up. However, securing the borders is a must. Hope the DEMS have a few plans, but I have my doubts about that....dman

[ColoradoDarin]

If nothing in the next two years are done about immigration, the GOP will lose my straight ticket votes. I absolutely hate the democrats, and I premise that with this, If John Edwards came to speak in my town, I would spit on him. I am sick to death of living in Mexico, sorry I mean Kansas. On the day of the walkout, all I saw were Mexican flags waving. The only flag flying should be the US flag period. My son is a freshman, his required reading for English class was a story of a man who illegally entered the country, picked strawberries, and the graduated from college. What happened to Shakespeare, what happened to killer angles. My 6 year old believes that Mexico is a great country, especially when he celebrates cinco de mayo at school. I am fed up and done. I love GW, The GOP, and now willing to let them go over this issue. I know alot of people who will jump ship as well, could be very very bad for the GOP in these hardcore red states.

Well, most Republicans don't want W's immigration "reform." So I don't understand why you would leave the GOP where you agree with most of them for the Democrats who you disagree with this issues.

Me? I'm ambivalent at best. I would like to see a complete shut down of illegal immigration, open up the legal channels of immigration (basically let anyone in who doesn't have a criminal record), but require several things like proficiency in English, learning US history, etc. to help assimilation.

[Stormontheplains]

I think if you want to be a citizen, two years of mandatory military duty would do the trick!

[alkemical]

There is no black and white on this. Last night he said we need a solution to the illegals we have here, and we need to protect our borders(he called again to double the Border patrol as well as developing more technology. He also again asked for a worker program, which I agree with. We have to provide a legal means for our neighbors to vome here, work, and pay taxes.

...and get that free health care!

[alkemical]

This whole immigration thing is easily solved, as your gov't will show you.

There won't be a boarder problem with immigration, if there are no boarders to have immigrants cross. Problem solved!

[Garcia Bronco]

This whole immigration thing is easily solved, as your gov't will show you.

There won't be a boarder problem with immigration, if there are no boarders to have immigrants cross. Problem solved!

We could have taken over Mexico in the Mexican War....but we didn't...Zachery Taylor and Old Fuss and Feathers made it pretty far down if I recall.

[yavoon]

We could have taken over Mexico in the Mexican War....but we didn't...Zachery Taylor and Old Fuss and Feathers made it pretty far down if I recall.

this would all be so much easier if mexico wasn't a ****hole. its really sad that they can't do anything right down there. huge corruption, huge graft, huge gov't meddling in the economy. and mexico is full of resources too, if we could just have canada on both our borders, instead of the rabbit breeding failed state of mexico it would certainly ease tensions a lot:).

[ColoradoDarin]

this would all be so much easier if mexico wasn't a ****hole. its really sad that they can't do anything right down there. huge corruption, huge graft, huge gov't meddling in the economy. and mexico is full of resources too, if we could just have canada on both our borders, instead of the rabbit breeding failed state of mexico it would certainly ease tensions a lot:).

I'm an imperialist kind of guy, we really should annex Mexico and most of Cananananada (screw Quebec :rofl: ).

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Well, most Republicans don't want W's immigration "reform." So I don't understand why you would leave the GOP where you agree with most of them for the Democrats who you disagree with this issues.
He won't, he's just posturing to try and make a point. Anyone who votes straight party ticket doesn't really care about or understand the issues anyway.

[cutthemdown]

We need to change the law that makes every baby born in America a citizen. We are the only country doing that.

[cutthemdown]

first thing that should be done is remove all the water stations along the smuggling route. I don't get why our govt lets bleeding heart activist put water in the desert for these migrants. I say no water for them, make it as hard as it can be to cross the desert.

[cutthemdown]

I'm an imperialist kind of guy, we really should annex Mexico and most of Cananananada (screw Quebec :rofl: ).

Mexico would be way better off for it. Now Canada I don't see needing the help. Although Canada can be a little soft they know what they are doing and wouldn't want to be American.

[defenseman]

I think if you want to be a citizen, two years of mandatory military duty would do the trick!

GOT TO be able to pass the ASVAB. I'll gaurantee you, most of them can't...dman

[defenseman]

He won't, he's just posturing to try and make a point. Anyone who votes straight party ticket doesn't really care about or understand the issues anyway.

This, is true...dman

[cutthemdown]

Not being a fan of ever expanding and more intrusive government, or the insane spending that the Republicans indulge themselves in, I will never vote for a Republican presidential candidate again.

Bush did spend like a liberal, but in the long run Dems will make govt bigger I think. I do agree though this administration is far from letting the states do what they want. STATES RIGHTS!!!!! STATES RIGHTS!!!!! IF we have state rights then we can go live in the part of country that reflects our beliefs and vote our own laws separate of the FEDS intrusive involvement. Republicans say they want state rights but only if the states agree with their conservative agenda. IE MEDICAL MARIJUANA TO NAME ONE ISSUE.

[defenseman]

This whole immigration thing is easily solved, as your gov't will show you.

There won't be a boarder problem with immigration, if there are no boarders to have immigrants cross. Problem solved!

Hopefully, they aren't that stupid. then again? I'd be first in line to smack the lot of them in the chops if they went that route..dman

[yavoon]

Bush did spend like a liberal, but in the long run Dems will make govt bigger I think. I do agree though this administration is far from letting the states do what they want. STATES RIGHTS!!!!! STATES RIGHTS!!!!! IF we have state rights then we can go live in the part of country that reflects our beliefs and vote our own laws separate of the FEDS intrusive involvement. Republicans say they want state rights but only if the states agree with their conservative agenda. IE MEDICAL MARIJUANA TO NAME ONE ISSUE.

state's rights and small gov't is dead, or almost dead. thats what bush and co. realized that campaigning for federal office on the idea that u wont do anything doesn't win elections.

nanny state paternalism and federal do goodership are what wins elections. having 18 pt plans that increase someone's(whose vote do u need?) benefits and programs to force states to do the right thing win elections.

[broncs2bowl]

If nothing in the next two years are done about immigration, the GOP will lose my straight ticket votes. I absolutely hate the democrats, and I premise that with this, If John Edwards came to speak in my town, I would spit on him. I am sick to death of living in Mexico, sorry I mean Kansas. On the day of the walkout, all I saw were Mexican flags waving. The only flag flying should be the US flag period. My son is a freshman, his required reading for English class was a story of a man who illegally entered the country, picked strawberries, and the graduated from college. What happened to Shakespeare, what happened to killer angles. My 6 year old believes that Mexico is a great country, especially when he celebrates cinco de mayo at school. I am fed up and done. I love GW, The GOP, and now willing to let them go over this issue. I know alot of people who will jump ship as well, could be very very bad for the GOP in these hardcore red states.

Ur a fricken racist a$$wipe! Are you kidding me! and you have the nerves to post this publicly. Someone in your family lineage was once an immigant!:punched:

[OrangeShadow]

Don't get me wrong, I"m not advocating undocumented illegals working. But, the problem goes deeper than a company not wanting to pay a decent wage. The problem also lies with our system of Unemployment and the fact that a lot of Americans feel it is their right to live off of the government and NOT work. There are many out there that know how to "work the system" and get away with not working, or working very little. They also work the "injuries" as well. Not that there aren't companies out there that don't want to pay higher wages...there are plenty of those, too.

We are talking about a culture here. "The government owes me" attitude is one that runs thick and deep in the American culture. What happened to the days where one went to work and worked hard and were paid a fair wage? It seems that somewhere along the line someone always feels cheated.

QFT, Im willing to bet a good 60 percent of the people on welfare could get along fine without it if they would just LOOK for jobs, the'ye out there. But now a days its to east to just sit around and just collect welfare checks from the government. Gone are the days where people worked hard for the things they wanted. Until we fix the lazy attitude of america it wont make a difference whos in this country.

[STBumpkin]

[QUOTE=You build a fence, put men with guns who can protect that border. Then you raise the fines and prison terms for the individuals who seek to circumvent the law by hiring
illegal aliens because they refuse to pay an AMERICAN A DECENT WAGE. Easy enough our current laws were being enforced properly we wouldn't be having this conversation.[/QUOTE]

And then people complain because tomatoes cost $5-10 a pound. I used to think like you, but NO, illegals do jobs americans WON'T do. A guest worker system is the only way to control it short of pulling our troops out of Iraq to guard our southern border. At least that way we collect taxes from those who are currently here illegally.

[Dagmar]

I'm Scottish, I'm here legally, can I not fly my flag outside my home? Even on St. Andrews day?

[jossjeff]

As a California resident I can say with confidence that it's over.

America lost.

This state is more Mexico that the US and the gap widens with each passing day.

The opportunity to fix it has long passed. Now both parties are running from the issue with piss leaking down their inner thighs.

If you think it's bad now, wait until the Dems push amnesty through a bit down the road.

It's sad really, everyone is so afraid of being called racist that we can't enforce laws anymore.

The decline of America continues.........

[Garcia Bronco]

I'm Scottish, I'm here legally, can I not fly my flag outside my home? Even on St. Andrews day?

You are required.

[watermock]

I'm Scottish, I'm here legally, can I not fly my flag outside my home? Even on St. Andrews day?

The appropriate thing is to fly both actually.

[alkemical]

Hopefully, they aren't that stupid. then again? I'd be first in line to smack the lot of them in the chops if they went that route..dman

NAFTA Superhighway (http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&q=nafta+superhighway&btnG=Google+Search)


Security and Prosperity Partnership Of North America (http://www.spp.gov/)

[alkemical]

Bush did spend like a liberal, but in the long run Dems will make govt bigger I think. I do agree though this administration is far from letting the states do what they want. STATES RIGHTS!!!!! STATES RIGHTS!!!!! IF we have state rights then we can go live in the part of country that reflects our beliefs and vote our own laws separate of the FEDS intrusive involvement. Republicans say they want state rights but only if the states agree with their conservative agenda. IE MEDICAL MARIJUANA TO NAME ONE ISSUE.

Uhh...

Did you see how big gov't grew under bush?

[Broncojef]

Secure the Border.. if someone comes here it needs to be legal. We speak English and shouldn't have to support the illegals that come here. I'll vote for anyone Republican, Democrat or independent that will secure America and tell the illegals this is our country.

[chickennob2]

What happened to the days where one went to work and worked hard and were paid a fair wage?

When were these days, exactly?

[broncocalijohn]

You have at least two choices on the Republican side, Tancredo and Hunter. These guys are about border protection and are the guys to look at for 2008. Voting Liberal will make it worse if this is what you are worried about. As for me (living in SoCal), It is very important and part of the reason i didnt vote for Bush (other is the war). Republicans have not shown true conservative nature with Bush in office. Dont give up and go farther from the right.

[Stormontheplains]

Ur a fricken racist a$$wipe! Are you kidding me! and you have the nerves to post this publicly. Someone in your family lineage was once an immigant!:punched:

I forgot since I am a WHITE male, I can't have a opinion. I am not racist. But I love my country, and expect anyone who enters this country to permanently live, to love this country. There is nothing greater in this world than the United States of America. I condemn anyone who flies the flag of a country who doesn't educate, protect, and provide freedom to it's people. It just seems like its popular these days not to be from America. By the way, this racist puts in 10-15 hours a week of community service, mostly to Hispanic children and white trash. I give them tough love, accountability, and teach them what respect is. You wouldn't believe what honesty can do for a child's life.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I forgot since I am a WHITE male, I can't have a opinion. I am not racist. But I love my country, and expect anyone who enters this country to permanently live, to love this country. There is nothing greater in this world than the United States of America. I condemn anyone who flies the flag of a country who doesn't educate, protect, and provide freedom to it's people. It just seems like its popular these days not to be from America. By the way, this racist puts in 10-15 hours a week of community service, mostly to Hispanic children and white trash. I give them tough love, accountability, and teach them what respect is. You wouldn't believe what honesty can do for a child's life.This coming from a guy who says he would spit in someones face based on political association. Gotta love that "tough love" approach.

[defenseman]

Secure the Border.. if someone comes here it needs to be legal. We speak English and shouldn't have to support the illegals that come here. I'll vote for anyone Republican, Democrat or independent that will secure America and tell the illegals this is our country.

I'll NEVER vote for any republican or democrat that supported the non-binding resolution against the actions GW intends to take in iraq. NEVER..they are nothing short of gutless...dman

[Stormontheplains]

This coming from a guy who says he would spit in someones face based on political association. Gotta love that "tough love" approach.

When that person trys to get votes by degrading the country, while trying to creat racial, and economical divides, and pure money hungry scum, YES. Unlike you my friend, when dealing with children I DO NOT have a agenda.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I'll NEVER vote for any republican or democrat that supported the non-binding resolution against the actions GW intends to take in iraq. NEVER..they are nothing short of gutless...dmanActually, many of the ones who didn't and don't vote for it are the gutless ones, and they even admitted it.

"A resolution that that says we're against this escalation, that's easy. The next step will be how do you put further pressure on the administration against the escalation, but still supporting the troops who are there," he said on NBC's "Today" program.

"That's what we're figuring out right now," Schumer added. "But this will not be the end. There will be other resolutions with more teeth in it afterwards and my bet -- they'll get a majority of support and significant Republican support."

Sen. George Voinovich (news, bio, voting record), R-Ohio, said he believed the resolution could be viewed as a political attack on Bush and misinterpreted "by our enemies as abandoning Iraq." But, he added, he remained skeptical that additional troops in Baghdad would be successful.

"I have been waiting for the administration to extend an olive branch in an attempt to forge a compromise" that would make clear "we stand united as a nation," he said. "I obviously have been disappointed since that has not happened."

Voinovich and like-minded GOP senators say they might be willing to sign on to a measure backed by Sens. Warner, Susan Collins (news, bio, voting record), R-Maine, Norm Coleman (news, bio, voting record), R-Minn., and Ben Nelson (news, bio, voting record), D-Neb.

Warner, a prominent Republican and former chairman of the Armed Services Committee, cast his measure as a milder alternative. It leaves open the possibility of Bush sending in a much smaller number of troops, particularly to the western Anbar province, and uses language that some say may be seen as less partisan.

"I think this is just the beginning," said Sen. Lisa Murkowski (news, bio, voting record), R-Alaska, a member of the Foreign Relations Committee. Murkowski voted against the resolution but not before voicing her opposition to sending more troops to Iraq.
http://tinyurl.com/34e6f6

[Willynowei]

I forgot since I am a WHITE male, I can't have a opinion. I am not racist. But I love my country, and expect anyone who enters this country to permanently live, to love this country. There is nothing greater in this world than the United States of America. I condemn anyone who flies the flag of a country who doesn't educate, protect, and provide freedom to it's people. It just seems like its popular these days not to be from America. By the way, this racist puts in 10-15 hours a week of community service, mostly to Hispanic children and white trash. I give them tough love, accountability, and teach them what respect is. You wouldn't believe what honesty can do for a child's life.

You are a nationalist, and they are no different from you. They take pride in their nation, even though their government probably doesn't reflect that well. The flag can stand for more than just the current leaders in office. If the US is failing to protect, educate its people, would you quit flying the American flag? Did you do this on 9/11 or did you unite with other Americans?

So by the same logic, if the mexican state is currently failing, should mexicans quit flying their flag?

You aren't racist, and like other Americans you sure as hell have good reason to hate unregulated immigration, but theres nothing wrong with someone celebrating their nation in boundaries of another country/state.

People don't understand that we aren't competing with Mexico. They don't understand that Mexico, China, India and all these countries taking our jobs are not competitors.

Want to know where the real competitor is? The European Union, they challenge the United States in everyway with their open trade policies. Using cheap labor to develop China, Mexico, Indonesia, etc, we can create a similar union. And unless the united states does this, the Euro will grow stronger, the dollar weaker, and the American economy will fall behind.

Its already happening, we're not doomed but you're going to see Europeans buying out US property soon enough and Americans won't be able to afford any European imports. its already tough enough to go there for vacation.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

When that person trys to get votes by degrading the country, while trying to creat racial, and economical divides, and pure money hungry scum, YES. I have no idea about what you are saying here.


Unlike you my friend, when dealing with children I DO NOT have a agenda.And now I know why.

[defenseman]

Actually, many of the ones who didn't and don't vote for it are the gutless ones, and they even admitted it.



http://tinyurl.com/34e6f6

I disagree. IF, one signs on the resolution in question they quite simply DO NOT have the courage of their convictions. If you are against it, pull funding. If not, then stand down. By signing onto a non binding resolution you simply whine about what the president is doing WITHOUT ANY of the fallout of making the decision to protest. They show a distinct lack of intestinal fortitude by not shouldering any responsibility for the outcome of the war. I consider this a gutless individual.

In addition, congress can 1) declare war and 2) fund war. That's all, they have NO RIGHT to tell ANY general or admiral how to wage war. The ONLY person in this country that has the power to do that is the president of the US. They need to keep their damn nose out of it IF they are not willing to take any responsibility for the outcome. They are truly disgusting and any of them who voted for this, is an embarrassment to the country. The general says he needs more than 20K and Broomhillary says no you don't that's why I'm voting for a cap on the troops. Who's the damn ground commander, the general or broomhillary? Who you gonna trust with the lives of the soldiers knocking down doors? Broomhillary? I'm thinking not. Best part is, if you look at the resolution it's thrust is the same damn thing we did in iraq for about a year and a half, and THEY said it didn't work then? All the sudden it's going to work now? They are freaking hypocrites. I've had enough of the lot of them. Let the president engage baghdad, let the general lead, they should provide the troops necessary and funding needed, HOPE FOR VICTORY, and step the hell aside is where I'm coming from. Good or Bad outcome the president will "wear it". Seeing as congress and the senate is NOT WILLING to "wear it" , I don't see them having ANY say so in the least...dman

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I disagree. IF, one signs on the resolution in question they quite simply DO NOT have the courage of their convictions. If you are against it, pull funding. If not, then stand down. By signing onto a non binding resolution you simply whine about what the president is doing WITHOUT ANY of the fallout of making the decision to protest. They show a distinct lack of intestinal fortitude by not shouldering any responsibility for the outcome of the war. I consider this a gutless individual.

In addition, congress can 1) declare war and 2) fund war. That's all, they have NO RIGHT to tell ANY general or admiral how to wage war. The ONLY person in this country that has the power to do that is the president of the US. They need to keep their damn nose out of it IF they are not willing to take any responsibility for the outcome. They are truly disgusting and any of them who voted for this, is an embarrassment to the country. The general says he needs more than 20K and Broomhillary says no you don't that's why I'm voting for a cap on the troops. Who's the damn ground commander, the general or broomhillary? Who you gonna trust with the lives of the soldiers knocking down doors? Broomhillary? I'm thinking not. Best part is, if you look at the resolution it's thrust is the same damn thing we did in iraq for about a year and a half, and THEY said it didn't work then? All the sudden it's going to work now? They are freaking hypocrites. I've had enough of the lot of them. Let the president engage baghdad, let the general lead, they should provide the troops necessary and funding needed, HOPE FOR VICTORY, and step the hell aside is where I'm coming from. Good or Bad outcome the president will "wear it". Seeing as congress and the senate is NOT WILLING to "wear it" , I don't see them having ANY say so in the least...dman

No, actually it is two republican Congressman who first said "no you don't" but don't let that stop your ranting against democrats.

[clarkster]

man, tough for me to side one way or the other here. here goes
-i think all who enter this country to live and work should register and be approved.
-once here, whether legally or not, must be held accountable for their actions HERE. I tire of hearing about criminals being released to their country for prosecution. at the same time, our tax dollars already pay too much to prisons. so now what? pay for Julio to spend the next 3 years in prison here or send him off and thats it only to possibly come back and do it again?
-one thing ive noticed, immigrants for the most part want to work and dont care really what theyre doing as long as its work. hey, i remember when the aaverage American thought of a job as an opportunity, not so much the case anymore. thats why i laugh when i see the "will work for food guy" maybe im nieve, but i dont believe that theres a job shortage in the US, i believe theres a "spoiled and lazy person" surplus.
maybe im jsut bored. hey side note, i close on my first house tomm, very exciting, only took like 8 years...

[defenseman]

No, actually it is two republican Congressman who first said "no you don't" but don't let that stop your ranting against democrats.

Those two republicans should be "keel hauled" as far as I'm concerned. ANY republican that signed onto the "cowards" resolution, as I call it, should be soundly thumped along with the rest of the whale excrimant..dman

[banyon]

There is no black and white on this. Last night he said we need a solution to the illegals we have here, and we need to protect our borders(he called again to double the Border patrol as well as developing more technology. He also again asked for a worker program, which I agree with. We have to provide a legal means for our neighbors to vome here, work, and pay taxes.


He said we need to "free up the border patrol" to chase drug traffickers. Basically, he does not think the border patrol's job is to patrol the border. He thinks they are the DEA.

[Garcia Bronco]

He said we need to "free up the border patrol" to chase drug traffickers. Basically, he does not think the border patrol's job is to patrol the border. He thinks they are the DEA.

He said that during the speech, because I don't recall that.

Anybody got link to the transcript?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Those two republicans should be "keel hauled" as far as I'm concerned. ANY republican that signed onto the "cowards" resolution, as I call it, should be soundly thumped along with the rest of the whale excrimant..dmanLike I said, the only "cowards" are the all the lawmakers saying they don't support Bush sending more Americans to their death who won't back up their words, which includes most of the republicans now.

[defenseman]

Like I said, the only "cowards" are the all the lawmakers saying they don't support Bush sending more Americans to their death who won't back up their words, which includes most of the republicans now.

Most? Hmmm...some numbers from a reliable source would be nice, however, I catch your drift. You are correct, some republicans have turned out not to support the surge based on the fact they desire to distance themselves from the ole pres. You are right, they are cowards too, cut the funding or standdown, one or the other. Signing a meaningless piece of paper complaining about a tactic, that THEY have no bearing on wrt authorizing/ denying and will not take any accountability for the fact that they bought into the war, and refuse to take any responsibility for the outcome, for political reasons I might add, colors them the cowards they are. Agreed...dman

[Garcia Bronco]

Most? Hmmm...some numbers from a reliable source would be nice, however, I catch your drift. You are correct, some republicans have turned out not to support the surge based on the fact they desire to distance themselves from the ole pres. You are right, they are cowards too, cut the funding or standdown, one or the other. Signing a meaningless piece of paper complaining about a tactic, that THEY have no bearing on wrt authorizing/ denying and will not take any accountability for the fact that they bought into the war, and refuse to take any responsibility for the outcome, for political reasons I might add, colors them the cowards they are. Agreed...dman

Agreed

[orinjkrush]

the culture wars against white, heterosexual, judeo-christian, monogamistic males continues unabated,

you racist homophobic insensitive colonial imperialist macho misogynistic pig.

I fart in your general direction.

[defenseman]

the culture wars against white, heterosexual, judeo-christian, monogamistic males continues unabated,

you racist homophobic insensitive colonial imperialist macho misogynistic pig.

I fart in your general direction.

LOL...dman

[Dagmar]

Only one response to my question and it was from mock!

[N.O.Bronco]

Those two republicans should be "keel hauled" as far as I'm concerned. ANY republican that signed onto the "cowards" resolution, as I call it, should be soundly thumped along with the rest of the whale excrimant..dman

I asked you before to please respond to my troop post in the state of the union thread and you still dont, it directlly assesed exactly what you are saying.


How are they cowards they were misled by the Cheney and libby about connections to 9/11 we were lied to about "a slam dunk of assurity about WMDs by the cia director and bush himself. Most every military strategist that was present at the invasion told Rumsfeld that what was needed to secure Iraq after the toppling was 200,000-400,000 troops. Bush and Rumsfeld ignored it, debathification and disbandment of the iraqi army, unecissary tactics, caused the first real insurgencies which carry over into today. mind you all policies put into place by Bush. time and time again the president said something that turned out to be a lie or his assumptions would prove the polar opposite. How are these men cowards for saying we feel that you are screwing up this war, we stood by you, but you screwed it up and we feel you are about to do it again? Again i quote myself

especially cosidering he is only "surging" to the level we had in the high point of 2005. it didnt work then, i dont think its gonna work now(for more reasons then that). Also good to note that his so called escalation is putting 21,000 troops in. The people he consultated that actually agreed with the surge idea said that at a absolute minimum you needed 35,000 to 50,000 troops any less was a waste.

Now the real consensus of the best regarded surge advocates(mosty militarial strategists probablly the best minds for this of course) suggested to secure baghdad one needed to have one soldier for every 40 to 100 people, bringing the total to at a minimum 100,000 and ideally 400,000 additional troops. That along with the policies he put in place. Now understanding that after all the places he sought out advice he decided on a plan every single one of them recommended against, which begs the question, why is he actually doing this?

Now again i say how is this a coward act, when the democrats in congress know that what Bush is doing with the amount of troops he is sending is directlly going against every single person and every single entity he sought out advice from? Every conservative think tank thought that and this really should not be a political discussion as so many on here are trying to make it. Rather it should be a discussion of is this the right course, if so why if not why not?

[Buff_bronc_fan]

Why not just make it easier for Mexicans to obtain citizenship? They aren't the ones trying to blow up our planes and destroy what we stand for... They just wanna climb out of the poverty they were born into.

If we allow citizenship, then we can tax them and make them jump through all of the hoops that all of the rest of us do.

I'll go ahead and risk sounding like a bleeding heart liberal and say that we are a nation of immigrants, and even you narrow-minded dolts from Kansas came over on a boat at some point... God forbid your child reads a book about someone who doesn't look like him or have the same background as him... God forbid he actually learns some compassion without your "tough love" spitting in anyone who thinks differently than you's face.

I too fart in your general direction.

[yavoon]

Why not just make it easier for Mexicans to obtain citizenship? They aren't the ones trying to blow up our planes and destroy what we stand for... They just wanna climb out of the poverty they were born into.

If we allow citizenship, then we can tax them and make them jump through all of the hoops that all of the rest of us do.

I'll go ahead and risk sounding like a bleeding heart liberal and say that we are a nation of immigrants, and even you narrow-minded dolts from Kansas came over on a boat at some point... God forbid your child reads a book about someone who doesn't look like him or have the same background as him... God forbid he actually learns some compassion without your "tough love" spitting in anyone who thinks differently than you's face.

I too fart in your general direction.

personally 300 million is enough for me. we dont have infinite land, or infinite resources, and while they aren't running out yet. I dont wanna be a nation of 600 million or a billion.

and economically the mexicans are seriously hurting the lower classes wages. as citizens or not they severely depress the wages unskilled laborers can earn. but then of course the liberals frigging bleat endlessly about how the poor have it so tough. so instead of having to subsidize 80 million poor(madeup number), w/ continued mexican influx we'd have to subsidize 120 million poor. so the poor continue to have it rough and the country has to foot a higher tab for its welfare state.

[RMT]

One dichotomy that emerged from the State of the Union address ... going after corporations for hiring illegals and then holding schools accountable for students' performance, including illegals and children of illegals ... anyone else see the irony in that?

Right now NCLB requires ELL (English Language Learners) to read at grade level within 2 years of being in the U.S. How in the world is an 8th grade ELL student who's been here for 2 years ever going to pass an 8th grade Reading test? ... they aren't, yet we fine corporations for hiring illegals and label schools as "failures" for not educating the illegals ... :confuzzle

[yavoon]

One dichotomy that emerged from the State of the Union address ... going after corporations for hiring illegals and then holding schools accountable for students' performance, including illegals and children of illegals ... anyone else see the irony in that?

Right now NCLB requires ELL (English Language Learners) to read at grade level within 2 years of being in the U.S. How in the world is an 8th grade ELL student who's been here for 2 years ever going to pass an 8th grade Reading test? ... they aren't, yet we fine corporations for hiring illegals and label schools as "failures" for not educating the illegals ... :confuzzle

I'm not getting it. we fine corporations, trying to discourage illegals from coming. and we fail schools, trying to force performance out of schools.

[RMT]

I'm not getting it. we fine corporations, trying to discourage illegals from coming. and we fail schools, trying to force performance out of schools.

It isn't "failing schools trying to force performance out of schools" but doing so with thousands and thousands of students who are here illegally and whose parents are here illegally. Last year there was a large school district in my area that "didn't make AYP" (adequate yearly progress) in one group ... guess which one ... ELLs ... an estimated 25% of those children are illegal or their parents are. Someone I know close to the situation had data to prove that if the alleged illegals were not here, the district would have made it.

I don't think that's fair, do you?

[RMT]

I'm not getting it. we fine corporations, trying to discourage illegals from coming. and we fail schools, trying to force performance out of schools.

And as for school performance, it's tough for schools to improve when there is a 200,000 teacher shortage. Schools have to hire everyone available. That kind of supply and demand is not going to improve education at all. Nor is the "beatings will continue until morale improves mentality."

I feel sorry for anyone in education. Teachers people are martyrs, in my opinion. Or maybe they just don't know any better.

[Spider]

yeah like I give a damn how you vote .........anyone that votes party ticket isnt worth a damn to begin with .................

[yavoon]

It isn't "failing schools trying to force performance out of schools" but doing so with thousands and thousands of students who are here illegally and whose parents are here illegally. Last year there was a large school district in my area that "didn't make AYP" (adequate yearly progress) in one group ... guess which one ... ELLs ... an estimated 25% of those children are illegal or their parents are. Someone I know close to the situation had data to prove that if the alleged illegals were not here, the district would have made it.

I don't think that's fair, do you?

does that make it ironic? I guess depending on situation its nominally unfair, but u have to realize that those illiterate ell's are a serious issue for our economy.

[yavoon]

And as for school performance, it's tough for schools to improve when there is a 200,000 teacher shortage. Schools have to hire everyone available. That kind of supply and demand is not going to improve education at all. Nor is the "beatings will continue until morale improves mentality."

I feel sorry for anyone in education. Teachers people are martyrs, in my opinion. Or maybe they just don't know any better.

I dont feel all that sorry for teachers, the teachers union is a complete dick of an organization and has stood directly in the path of school improvement for decades.

perhaps if I knew more teachers I'd have more sympathy.

[RMT]

I dont feel all that sorry for teachers, the teachers union is a complete dick of an organization and has stood directly in the path of school improvement for decades.

perhaps if I knew more teachers I'd have more sympathy.

I can see your point ... on the other hand, teachers' salaries have only kept with inflation (barely) while private industry has exceeded inflation for years. (I have family in education, so I have a unique perspective - doesn't make it right - just unique). Some independent studies were conducted that showed that without a union teacher's salaries would have trailed inflation.

Of course, money doesn't buy happiness - one must be happy with what they are doing, too. The teachers' union and the government share in the failure of schools. It's always been a political issue, I think, because it uses taxpayers funds. If education were not funded by American taxpayers, I think the teachers' union would get less heat from the media and public (maybe).

Regarding illegals and children of illegals - it was put to me this way (by a taxpayer who happened to be a teacher): it costs approximately $6000/year to educate ONE child. Illegals tend to have larger families ... to educate 5 children who are illegal is $30,000/year. Assuming they stay in school for 13 years (K-12), that's close to $400,000. Of course, illegals tend to have higher dropout rates than other groups - they are more concerned about $$$ for the family than the long-term prospects of getting a college education. $400,000 is a lot of money to pay for children who are not here legally. And then to turn around and have a teacher's career be on the line based on the performance of children who shouldn't be here - that's a touchy issue. I don't think I'd like that either.

[yavoon]

I can see your point ... on the other hand, teachers' salaries have only kept with inflation (barely) while private industry has exceeded inflation for years. (I have family in education, so I have a unique perspective - doesn't make it right - just unique). Some independent studies were conducted that showed that without a union teacher's salaries would have trailed inflation.

Of course, money doesn't buy happiness - one must be happy with what they are doing, too. The teachers' union and the government share in the failure of schools. It's always been a political issue, I think, because it uses taxpayers funds. If education were not funded by American taxpayers, I think the teachers' union would get less heat from the media and public (maybe).

Regarding illegals and children of illegals - it was put to me this way (by a taxpayer who happened to be a teacher): it costs approximately $6000/year to educate ONE child. Illegals tend to have larger families ... to educate 5 children who are illegal is $30,000/year. Assuming they stay in school for 13 years (K-12), that's close to $400,000. Of course, illegals tend to have higher dropout rates than other groups - they are more concerned about $$$ for the family than the long-term prospects of getting a college education. $400,000 is a lot of money to pay for children who are not here legally. And then to turn around and have a teacher's career be on the line based on the performance of children who shouldn't be here - that's a touchy issue. I don't think I'd like that either.

I guess u could kick the illegals out of schools. lets face it, mexico is a craphole, the pressure to leave mexico and come to america is enormous. unless u have a well developed system to kick them out and keep them out they're gna keep flooding across. and I mean flood. being poor and destitute and living in shanty towns in america is often preferable to where they were in mexico.

[RMT]

with some of the trade agreements being tossed around between Canada, the U.S. and Mexico, it would not surprise me to eventually see some type of unifying territorial partnership, almost like having 3 large states ... borders are becoming so meaningless ...

[yavoon]

with some of the trade agreements being tossed around between Canada, the U.S. and Mexico, it would not surprise me to eventually see some type of unifying territorial partnership, almost like having 3 large states ... borders are becoming so meaningless ...

borders are more meaningful now than ever. ppl always get a little overhyped and crazy about stuff. we're building a fence on mexico, india has already built a fence around bangladesh. more border issues will follow as there are SO many ppl in the world and theyre all produced by the poor countries and they all want to leave.

[alkemical]

with some of the trade agreements being tossed around between Canada, the U.S. and Mexico, it would not surprise me to eventually see some type of unifying territorial partnership, almost like having 3 large states ... borders are becoming so meaningless ...

http://www.spp.gov

[Stormontheplains]

Just curious, how many of you guys actually live in a area where the hispanics are the majority. I live in a town with two beef plants and farming. Our school system is suffering horribly. Our test scores are in the tank, we have somewhere around 250 para's employed, and also 60 ESL instructors. That eats up a ton of budget, while the moneys are not being put into the system by these families. Home ownership by hispanics in this town is 22% and they represent 62% of the students. We see mill levy increases every year, so my burden is much greater than theres. When I bought my house 5 years ago my payment was 843.00 and it now is 1065.00

[Spider]

LOL too funny .......... Lower my taxes it is my money not the governments , I can spend it better .................. 4 years later , how come my house payments , utilities , gas , goods are so much higher? .................. you get what you vote for ........

[defenseman]

LOL too funny .......... Lower my taxes it is my money not the governments , I can spend it better .................. 4 years later , how come my house payments , utilities , gas , goods are so much higher? .................. you get what you vote for ........

A recent gallup (23Jan07 I'm thinkin), reasonably good polling source, stated 86% of americans are happy with their quality of life. I'm normally not one to tout polls, but this one kind of caught my eye. Didn't quite understand how that could be considering how the media pundits "rail" nightly and in print on how screwed up we are in numerous respects. Just a thought...dman

[Stormontheplains]

Excuse me, but the local government sets the mill levy, has nothing to do with right or left on a national level. I never stated anything but my house payment went up Rubber Duckie.

[defenseman]

Just curious, how many of you guys actually live in a area where the hispanics are the majority. I live in a town with two beef plants and farming. Our school system is suffering horribly. Our test scores are in the tank, we have somewhere around 250 para's employed, and also 60 ESL instructors. That eats up a ton of budget, while the moneys are not being put into the system by these families. Home ownership by hispanics in this town is 22% and they represent 62% of the students. We see mill levy increases every year, so my burden is much greater than theres. When I bought my house 5 years ago my payment was 843.00 and it now is 1065.00


And you live in? California?...dman

[Stormontheplains]

Kansas, or what now around here is called "Old Mexico".

[defenseman]

Kansas, or what now around here is called "Old Mexico".

Interesting. There is a place called storm lake , Iowa that used to be a great place to vacation. Wonderful summers , beautiful lakes...etc...etc... A meat packing plant moved in and of course, a substantial portion of it's employees are illegals. Long story short, it is now a terrible place to vacation, home values suck, drugs are rampant and the locals have done nothing to prevent it. Really f**king sad sometimes. It has nose dived like a boogie boarder at "break neck" beach. I wouldn't even consider retiring in that area now. Kansas won't tax my retirement so am considering moving down south one state's worth to take advantage of that....dman

[banyon]

He said that during the speech, because I don't recall that.

Anybody got link to the transcript?

Yet even with all these steps, we cannot fully secure the border unless we take pressure off the border -- and that requires a temporary worker program. We should establish a legal and orderly path for foreign workers to enter our country to work on a temporary basis. As a result, they won't have to try to sneak in, and that will leave Border Agents free to chase down drug smugglers and criminals and terrorists. (Applause.) We'll enforce our immigration laws at the work site and give employers the tools to verify the legal status of their workers, so there's no excuse left for violating the law. (Applause.)

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/01/20070123-2.html

[defenseman]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/01/20070123-2.html

Good post banyon. He did say it. Interesting, by setting up the guest worker program so the enter legally, the majority crossing illegally would be the smugglers/dealers. We'll see if it plays out that way...dman

[Spider]

A recent gallup (23Jan07 I'm thinkin), reasonably good polling source, stated 86% of americans are happy with their quality of life. I'm normally not one to tout polls, but this one kind of caught my eye. Didn't quite understand how that could be considering how the media pundits "rail" nightly and in print on how screwed up we are in numerous respects. Just a thought...dman
timing of the poll ...... you ask the same question in 2001 , you get a different result ... people get used to things givin enough time to adjust , take gas prices for example , now we are used to seeing high prices bítch a lot less now .............
But that still doesnt answer for the problems in Schools , roads , hospitals....etc .......

[Crushaholic]

Kansas won't tax my retirement so am considering moving down south one state's worth to take advantage of that....dman

Come on down. As long as you avoid living in Lawrence (the Berkeley of Kansas), you'll find this to be a nice place to live...

[RMT]

Just curious, how many of you guys actually live in a area where the hispanics are the majority. I live in a town with two beef plants and farming. Our school system is suffering horribly. Our test scores are in the tank, we have somewhere around 250 para's employed, and also 60 ESL instructors. That eats up a ton of budget, while the moneys are not being put into the system by these families. Home ownership by hispanics in this town is 22% and they represent 62% of the students. We see mill levy increases every year, so my burden is much greater than theres. When I bought my house 5 years ago my payment was 843.00 and it now is 1065.00

I live in Kansas, too, and know EXACTLY what you are talking about ... same problems in our schools - last year our district didn't make AYP in only one (out of 14) subgroups. It was ELL in Reading ... the Feds require ELLs to pass the SAME EXACT Reading test as every other "regular" student. Give me a break - that is unlikely to happen. If they could read English, they would not be needing ELL services ... and then our teachers get blamed for not cutting it ... An 8th grade ELL student is probably NOT going to pass the 8th grade reading test - that's an asinine expectation.

Our district is also overcrowded and the old-timers don't feel like paying for bigger and better facilities for the illegals whose tax contribution is minimal.

Illegals are raping our economy.

[yavoon]

I live in Kansas, too, and know EXACTLY what you are talking about ... same problems in our schools - last year our district didn't make AYP in only one (out of 14) subgroups. It was ELL in Reading ... the Feds require ELLs to pass the SAME EXACT Reading test as every other "regular" student. Give me a break - that is unlikely to happen. If they could read English, they would not be needing ELL services ... and then our teachers get blamed for not cutting it ... An 8th grade ELL student is probably NOT going to pass the 8th grade reading test - that's an asinine expectation.

Our district is also overcrowded and the old-timers don't feel like paying for bigger and better facilities for the illegals whose tax contribution is minimal.

Illegals are raping our economy.

is this all under no child left behind? because while I dont know the intricacies of it the states themselves set the standards, I know because my state started out all proud of itself for its standard. stuff like, "this is the bear minimum our students need to succeed when they grow up in society." now they're saying stuff like, "our standards were unnaturally high, and are putting unnecessary pressure on our noble and valiant teachers to meet artificial goals."

[Spider]

.

Our district is also overcrowded and the old-timers don't feel like paying for bigger and better facilities for the illegals whose tax contribution is minimal.

Illegals are raping our economy.

Illegals have been a problem for a long time , cheap labor , for companies is like you finding cheap gas ...........
they became a problem with tax cuts , I am not sticking up for Illegals , but you say the Illegals dont contribute ?
they do ,Payroll tax is a small part , the ones that really rape our economy are the ones on welfare , they dont pay sales tax , that is big ......... we all pay the same tax on Gasoline , that helps ........
But do Illegals cost more then fortune 500 companies getting Billions in Corporate Welfare ?
Like I say I am not sticking up for illegals , just trying to set the targets that are really raping us

[RMT]

is this all under no child left behind? because while I dont know the intricacies of it the states themselves set the standards, I know because my state started out all proud of itself for its standard. stuff like, "this is the bear minimum our students need to succeed when they grow up in society." now they're saying stuff like, "our standards were unnaturally high, and are putting unnecessary pressure on our noble and valiant teachers to meet artificial goals."

yes, it's all under NCLB - if the public knew (and understood) just HALF of what NCLB is demanding, it would not take them long either to realize that the legislation is really designed to cause schools and districts to fail ...

just watch over the next year or so ... there will be a large increase in the number of schools that "did not make AYP," the teacher shortage will worsen (it's already 200,000+ short), and the Feds will drag their feet on reauthorizing NCLB until 2008 (it's up for reauthorization this year) because both parties will want to use it as a political issue for the 2008 presidential election ...

as for AYP - here's an example of how it impacts our local district ... between math and reading there are 14 subgroups plus the "all students" category for math and reading ... that's 16 groups overall. If one - just one - of those groups "does not make AYP" the entire district "fails AYP," regardless of how well the other 15 groups did. What if I had 16 children and one decided not to go to college, would that mean that I failed as a parent? That's a pretty abstract comparison, but that is the expectation.

To put this into statistical perspective, consider the following:
Each group either makes AYP or doesn't ... so there are 2 possibilities (make it or don't). Of 16 groups, that's 16 "makes it" or "doesn't make it" for AYP.
It's an expontential combination problem.
(1/2)^16 (that's 1/2 to the 16th power) = 65,536 different AYP combinations and the district will only "make AYP" ONE WAY ... that means there are 65,535 ways to NOT make AYP.

People have better luck winning a pick 4 with the numbers 0-9. See what education is up against?

[RMT]

Illegals have been a problem for a long time , cheap labor , for companies is like you finding cheap gas ...........
they became a problem with tax cuts , I am not sticking up for Illegals , but you say the Illegals dont contribute ?
they do ,Payroll tax is a small part , the ones that really rape our economy are the ones on welfare , they dont pay sales tax , that is big ......... we all pay the same tax on Gasoline , that helps ........
But do Illegals cost more then fortune 500 companies getting Billions in Corporate Welfare ?
Like I say I am not sticking up for illegals , just trying to set the targets that are really raping us

I see your point to an extent ... if only the fortune 500 were the ones paying for all of the education, healthcare, and social benefits illegals get; it's often the middle class that ends up paying for that.

Every year California pays $6,000,000,000 to educate illegals. I should add a disclaimer - I'm a Lou Dobbs fan and agree with pretty much all of the illegal immigration issues that he presents on his program ... don't hate me for that, please :)

[Spider]

I see your point to an extent ... if only the fortune 500 were the ones paying for all of the education, healthcare, and social benefits illegals get; it's often the middle class that ends up paying for that.

Every year California pays $6,000,000,000 to educate illegals. I should add a disclaimer - I'm a Lou Dobbs fan and agree with pretty much all of the illegal immigration issues that he presents on his program ... don't hate me for that, please :)

;D I dont hate you , I am just trying to get a grasp on this Problem , I know illegals are a part of our Problem , but they wouldnt be here if they couldnt work and get welfare ....... Kinda like saving Pop cans , then bítching about the roaches you get .........I dont think Dems or Reps will do anything to really solve this problem , the solution to me is , enforcing laws about hiring illegals , but then that infringes on the free market .Damned if you do , Damned if you dont .....

[yavoon]

yes, it's all under NCLB - if the public knew (and understood) just HALF of what NCLB is demanding, it would not take them long either to realize that the legislation is really designed to cause schools and districts to fail ...

just watch over the next year or so ... there will be a large increase in the number of schools that "did not make AYP," the teacher shortage will worsen (it's already 200,000+ short), and the Feds will drag their feet on reauthorizing NCLB until 2008 (it's up for reauthorization this year) because both parties will want to use it as a political issue for the 2008 presidential election ...

as for AYP - here's an example of how it impacts our local district ... between math and reading there are 14 subgroups plus the "all students" category for math and reading ... that's 16 groups overall. If one - just one - of those groups "does not make AYP" the entire district "fails AYP," regardless of how well the other 15 groups did. What if I had 16 children and one decided not to go to college, would that mean that I failed as a parent? That's a pretty abstract comparison, but that is the expectation.

To put this into statistical perspective, consider the following:
Each group either makes AYP or doesn't ... so there are 2 possibilities (make it or don't). Of 16 groups, that's 16 "makes it" or "doesn't make it" for AYP.
It's an expontential combination problem.
(1/2)^16 (that's 1/2 to the 16th power) = 65,536 different AYP combinations and the district will only "make AYP" ONE WAY ... that means there are 65,535 ways to NOT make AYP.

People have better luck winning a pick 4 with the numbers 0-9. See what education is up against?

but the states make their own standards. and ur statistical thing is really rather inane. we're not picking numbers, this isnt a lottery. and from my state I know that ppl aren't failing 1/16. they are failing in tons of categories and it still takes a long time for anything to really be done about it. u kinda sound like a mouthpeace for the teachers union.

=D

[Spider]

See the same ones that scream you cant cap prices , that infringes on Free market , you cant interfere with market , competition will work its self out ......... are the same ones that are upset at Illegals , so if we limit hiring of Illegals , then we limit the free market , if we dont limit then we have illegals out of our ears ..........
i will just kick back and watch , those that hate Unions , think the companies are far more important , are in for a rude awaking ........
I am thankfull I got a skilled trade ..........
i think the Union Bashing will come home to roost ...........

[RMT]

but the states make their own standards. and ur statistical thing is really rather inane. we're not picking numbers, this isnt a lottery. and from my state I know that ppl aren't failing 1/16. they are failing in tons of categories and it still takes a long time for anything to really be done about it. u kinda sound like a mouthpeace for the teachers union.

=D

sorry I can't take blame (or credit) for the teacher's union (keep in mind, too, that those who think teacher unions are "in the wrong," presume the feds to be right in NCLB - on the surface it would be hard to argue that, but if one were to dig deeper into it, what that person would find would be extremely disturbing) ... My degree is in Math and when I began examining the legislation it didn't take long to see what extraordinary expectations had been put into place. My parents have been teaching for 35+ years each - neither one of them came up with this stuff; they just knew that with my background, I could (to the best of my ability) use math to objectively reason NCLB. If I were in college and knowing what I do about NCLB and what is going (notice I didn't say "what might," I said "what is") to happen to teachers in the next 3 or 4 years, I wouldn't go into education either. I'd go into engineering or something where I have more control over the product I produce. Don't get me wrong, though - my qualm is NOT with accountabililty; that is LONG overdue - it's the "how" of accountability that is the issue.

I do believe state standards vary - I can see national standards coming as a result. The incongruence between state standards creates a problem, but that is not the fault of states or even school districts. The federal govt decades ago made education a "locally controlled" issue. Personally, what I see happening is that under NCLB hundreds of schools and districts will be labled as failing and then the feds will step in an wrestle control back from the states and federalize education ... just watch ...

As for the combination example ... that's "laymen" terms. Inane? Perhaps, but how else can one grasp the significant challenge of meeting AYP otherwise? People understand lotto ;) ... And, of course, teachers can and do make a difference - I just don't believe they can make enough of a difference to compensate for the unreasonable expectations being placed on them. It's also important to keep in mind that every year the "targets" that schools are required to reach increases ... some call it the "stairway to heaven" and others call it the "highway to hell" ... That's why more and more schools are failing, each and every year.

Like in a golf game, one's handicap is a 10, next year it must be an 8, the year after that it must be a 6 ... at some point, the ability to improve will level off and the person will maximize their talent. Probably a lame example, but it's hard to describe this stuff.

[RMT]

See the same ones that scream you cant cap prices , that infringes on Free market , you cant interfere with market , competition will work its self out ......... are the same ones that are upset at Illegals , so if we limit hiring of Illegals , then we limit the free market , if we dont limit then we have illegals out of our ears ..........
i will just kick back and watch , those that hate Unions , think the companies are far more important , are in for a rude awaking ........
I am thankfull I got a skilled trade ..........
i think the Union Bashing will come home to roost ...........

excellent point, Spider - hard to argue that.

[yavoon]

sorry I can't take blame (or credit) for the teacher's union (keep in mind, too, that those who think teacher unions are "in the wrong," presume the feds to be right in NCLB - on the surface it would be hard to argue that, but if one were to dig deeper into it, what that person would find would be extremely disturbing) ... My degree is in Math and when I began examining the legislation it didn't take long to see what extraordinary expectations had been put into place. My parents have been teaching for 35+ years each - neither one of them came up with this stuff; they just knew that with my background, I could (to the best of my ability) use math to objectively reason NCLB. If I were in college and knowing what I do about NCLB and what is going (notice I didn't say "what might," I said "what is") to happen to teachers in the next 3 or 4 years, I wouldn't go into education either. I'd go into engineering or something where I have more control over the product I produce. Don't get me wrong, though - my qualm is NOT with accountabililty; that is LONG overdue - it's the "how" of accountability that is the issue.

I do believe state standards vary - I can see national standards coming as a result. The incongruence between state standards creates a problem, but that is not the fault of states or even school districts. The federal govt decades ago made education a "locally controlled" issue. Personally, what I see happening is that under NCLB hundreds of schools and districts will be labled as failing and then the feds will step in an wrestle control back from the states and federalize education ... just watch ...

As for the combination example ... that's "laymen" terms. Inane? Perhaps, but how else can one grasp the significant challenge of meeting AYP otherwise? People understand lotto ;) ... And, of course, teachers can and do make a difference - I just don't believe they can make enough of a difference to compensate for the unreasonable expectations being placed on them. It's also important to keep in mind that every year the "targets" that schools are required to reach increases ... some call it the "stairway to heaven" and others call it the "highway to hell" ... That's why more and more schools are failing, each and every year.

Like in a golf game, one's handicap is a 10, next year it must be an 8, the year after that it must be a 6 ... at some point, the ability to improve will level off and the person will maximize their talent. Probably a lame example, but it's hard to describe this stuff.

I'm an aersospace engineer, I had no issue w/ ur terms. I had issue w/ ur use of lottery style statistics in this sense. I dont think having a list of x number of things that students have to know to pass is extreme. nor do I consider it random chance whether they do or don't pass one of them.

what if the examples to graduate highschool were:
breathing
don't piss ur pants unintentionally
read a stop sign
sign ur name
add all combinations of single digit numbers
clothe urself

well hell thats what? 6! requirements! either one of those could be met or not met! so when u think about it its (1/2)^6! how can our teachers be expected to carry this load! its inhumane!

also I dont mind state standards at all. so dont argue against me while ur promoting federalism:).

[RMT]

I'm an aersospace engineer, I had no issue w/ ur terms. I had issue w/ ur use of lottery style statistics in this sense. I dont think having a list of x number of things that students have to know to pass is extreme. nor do I consider it random chance whether they do or don't pass one of them.

what if the examples to graduate highschool were:
breathing
don't piss ur pants unintentionally
read a stop sign
sign ur name
add all combinations of single digit numbers
clothe urself

well hell thats what? 6! requirements! either one of those could be met or not met! so when u think about it its (1/2)^6! how can our teachers be expected to carry this load! its inhumane!

also I dont mind state standards at all. so dont argue against me while ur promoting federalism:).

I don't mean to imply that I promote federalism - I just think that's the route we're headed. Yes, the type of expectations one must meet determines whether or not the combinations are reasonable or unreasonable ...

My mom teaches 8th grade English ... if an ELL student is in her class and has only been here 2 years, that student is still expected to pass the same Reading test that all of the other English-speaking students take. Most of her ELL students are also "free/reduced" and "Hispanic" so their scores count in those subgroups in the building and the district as well as the "ELL" and "All Students" categories. So, their scores count 4X in the building, 4X in the district while a "White" student who has "no lunch support" has his/her score count 2X in the building and 2X in the district - it's weighted and leans toward an increase in the "not making AYP" side of the equation. The greater the risk, the more times the students' scores count. Is that fair? Research says it takes 5 - 7 years for an ELL student to become proficient in the English langauge, yet NCLB says 2 ... :saywhat: ... that doesn't even take into consideration the legal status of ELL children, which is another can of worms.

Take any job that says a project would take 5 - 7 years to complete and then be told that if you don't get it done in 2, you're a failure. Sure, you could get the project done, but it won't be of very high quality.

[yavoon]

I don't mean to imply that I promote federalism - I just think that's the route we're headed. Yes, the type of expectations one must meet determines whether or not the combinations are reasonable or unreasonable ...

My mom teaches 8th grade English ... if an ELL student is in her class and has only been here 2 years, that student is still expected to pass the same Reading test that all of the other English-speaking students take. Most of her ELL students are also "free/reduced" and "Hispanic" so their scores count in those subgroups in the building and the district as well as the "ELL" and "All Students" categories. So, their scores count 4X in the building, 4X in the district while a "White" student who has "no lunch support" has his/her score count 2X in the building and 2X in the district - it's weighted and leans toward an increase in the "not making AYP" side of the equation. The greater the risk, the more times the students' scores count. Is that fair? Research says it takes 5 - 7 years for an ELL student to become proficient in the English langauge, yet NCLB says 2 ... :saywhat: ... that doesn't even take into consideration the legal status of ELL children, which is another can of worms.

Take any job that says a project would take 5 - 7 years to complete and then be told that if you don't get it done in 2, you're a failure. Sure, you could get the project done, but it won't be of very high quality.

dont the state's set the standards?

[RMT]

dont the state's set the standards?

I believe so but I think that every state must submit their standards to the U.S. Dpmt. of Ed for approval - so even if the feds criticize low standards, is isn't as if they aren't aware of that before it becomes apparent.

Kinda like last spring when there was a firestorm about "not counting all SPED and minorities." What AP was up in arms about was the size of subgroups (most states use 30, so if there are 30 or more students in a particular disaggregated group, that group is then required to "make AYP" for that building/district) ... the problem is that some states were higher than 30 and some were lower - no consistency.

What the AP failed to understand, however, is that while they were saying that "just 1 student" should comprise a subgroup, that would mean that the performance of that 1 child would determine an entire building and district's AYP report. That will eventually happen when 100% of students must pass math and reading by 2014 ... I think the "magic number" of 30 stems from the "normal distribution" curve (z-scores).

What was really puzzling was that Margaret Spellings, the U.S. Sec. of Ed., said there would be "an internal investigation" into the differences between states - that's laughable because I have a friend who works with the state dpmt. of ed and he said the feds KNEW (and knowlingly approved) every state plan, so Spellings' comments were a smokescreen to feign holding states accountable rather than accept blame for approving the various plans in the first place.

[yavoon]

I believe so but I think that every state must submit their standards to the U.S. Dpmt. of Ed for approval - so even if the feds criticize low standards, is isn't as if they aren't aware of that before it becomes apparent.

Kinda like last spring when there was a firestorm about "not counting all SPED and minorities." What AP was up in arms about was the size of subgroups (most states use 30, so if there are 30 or more students in a particular disaggregated group, that group is then required to "make AYP" for that building/district) ... the problem is that some states were higher than 30 and some were lower - no consistency.

What the AP failed to understand, however, is that while they were saying that "just 1 student" should comprise a subgroup, that would mean that the performance of that 1 child would determine an entire building and district's AYP report. That will eventually happen when 100% of students must pass math and reading by 2014 ... I think the "magic number" of 30 stems from the "normal distribution" curve (z-scores).

What was really puzzling was that Margaret Spellings, the U.S. Sec. of Ed., said there would be "an internal investigation" into the differences between states - that's laughable because I have a friend who works with the state dpmt. of ed and he said the feds KNEW (and knowlingly approved) every state plan, so Spellings' comments were a smokescreen to feign holding states accountable rather than accept blame for approving the various plans in the first place.

of course they approved every state plan. IMO state plans are how it should be. I hardly see how now the federal gov't should accept blame for approving the plans? I mean what back asswards logic is that? now when the state's are granted freedom its the fed's fault what they do w/ it? thats very nanny state of u to say.

anyway ur main objection seems to be minorities, especially illegal mexicans and the general beaurocracy. I can't say I see either improving. though certainly I agree both could very well be nonsensical and difficult to deal w/.

I'm just glad for the first time there is some semblence of a check and balance on teachers, who before this had to molest a child to even be considered for firing.

[RMT]

of course they approved every state plan. IMO state plans are how it should be. I hardly see how now the federal gov't should accept blame for approving the plans? I mean what back asswards logic is that? now when the state's are granted freedom its the fed's fault what they do w/ it? thats very nanny state of u to say.

anyway ur main objection seems to be minorities, especially illegal mexicans and the general beaurocracy. I can't say I see either improving. though certainly I agree both could very well be nonsensical and difficult to deal w/.

I'm just glad for the first time there is some semblence of a check and balance on teachers, who before this had to molest a child to even be considered for firing.

I like the accountability, too - and you are probably right, the bureaucracy and illegal immigration issue won't be improving. That's probably the crux of the objections most around here have with accountability.

The 200,000 national teacher shortage is getting worse - I wonder how that is going to be resolved (if at all). That is going to become a national crisis in about 3 years when class sizes approach 35-40.

My objection isn't that the feds approved the state plans or that it's the fed's fault - the objection is that they felt there should be some investigation into "why there are differences between state's subgroup minimums." Even state employees saw beyond that coverup.

[yavoon]

I like the accountability, too - and you are probably right, the bureaucracy and illegal immigration issue won't be improving. That's probably the crux of the objections most around here have with accountability.

The 200,000 national teacher shortage is getting worse - I wonder how that is going to be resolved (if at all). That is going to become a national crisis in about 3 years when class sizes approach 35-40.

My objection isn't that the feds approved the plan or that it's the fed's fault - the objection is that they felt there should be some investigation into "why there are differences between state's subgroup minimums." Even state employees saw beyond that coverup.

haha ok. as for the teacher shortage, I have no idea. I imagine class sizes will get bigger! new teaching methodology to handle larger class sizes, etc. maybe what we should do is pay teachers twice as much and design class sizes for 70-80 kids.

think outside the box:).

[RMT]

haha ok. as for the teacher shortage, I have no idea. I imagine class sizes will get bigger! new teaching methodology to handle larger class sizes, etc. maybe what we should do is pay teachers twice as much and design class sizes for 70-80 kids.

think outside the box:).

double pay if doubling class size ... that's an interesting idea - it would certainly attract people to the profession.

[banyon]

Come on down. As long as you avoid living in Lawrence (the Berkeley of Kansas), you'll find this to be a nice place to live...

Wow. If Lawrence is the Berkeley of Kansas, then Topeka is the armpit of Kansas.