Sign Rod Coleman ~ Draft Patrick Willis

[-Slap-]

Rod Coleman (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/133255) is undersized for a DT and he's going to be 31 years old when the season starts. Jim Bates preference is for a big DTs (like there's a defensive coordinator out there who prefers spindly ones).

That said, Rod Coleman is basically the closest thing the NFL has seen to John Randle in the last 15 years. Coleman’s 28 sacks from 2004-06 were the highest total by an NFL defensive tackle, 7.5 more than the next closest player, and tied for eighth among all players.

Of course, Rod's position coach during this productive stretch was none other than Bill Johnson.

We need pressure up the gut. A sudden penetrator like Maa Tanuvasa was a very underrated component of our back to back Championship squads.

If Coleman's age and lack of bulk drop his price, I hope we give him a serious look this summer.

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/294/tallcolemanoak5oz.jpg

[Florida_Bronco]

He would be a good pickup.

[broncs2bowl]

He would improve our D-line greatly even without a DE. This guy does it all. Just a question: He is kind of undersized, but it he still good vs the run?

[cmhargrove]

He would improve our D-line greatly even without a DE. This guy does it all. Just a question: He is kind of undersized, but it he still good vs the run?

I believe that Atlanta over the past several years has been one of the best teams against the run. I don't remember the stats, but I thought they were even in the top five two of the past three years. Somebody check me here, but I think that is correct.

While I love the personalities our team has brought in from Cleveland, I would feel a little better about the talent from Atlanta. Coleman or Kearney are both "high motor" possibilities. I really think we need some "high motor" additions to limit time in the pocket from Manning, Brady, Rivers, etc.. I hate seeing Peyton standing tall all day playing catch with Reggie Wayne.

In all honesty, I think that during the Colts game, they could have picked on Champ just as much as they picked on DWill with the time they had. Champ may have picked one more ball, but they still could have burned him for a couple of TD's. We need high motor guys, starting at DT. Then, Dumerville and Ekuban (or Kearney) would look like heroes on the outside.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I believe that Atlanta over the past several years has been one of the best teams against the run. I don't remember the stats, but I thought they were even in the top five two of the past three years. Somebody check me here, but I think that is correct.

While I love the personalities our team has brought in from Cleveland, I would feel a little better about the talent from Atlanta. Coleman or Kearney are both "high motor" possibilities. I really think we need some "high motor" additions to limit time in the pocket from Manning, Brady, Rivers, etc.. I hate seeing Peyton standing tall all day playing catch with Reggie Wayne.

In all honesty, I think that during the Colts game, they could have picked on Champ just as much as they picked on DWill with the time they had. Champ may have picked one more ball, but they still could have burned him for a couple of TD's. We need high motor guys, starting at DT. Then, Dumerville and Ekuban (or Kearney) would look like heroes on the outside.Atlanta was 28th against the run in 2003, 9th in 2004, 25th in 2005 and 9th in 2006.

[bpc]

We should have had this guy when he got done in Oakland.

[broncs2bowl]

Yea we should have got him. The guy is very good and I heard from many Falcons fans on their message boards that he can stop the run

[GonzoLays]

Rod Coleman (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/133255) is undersized for a DT and he's going to be 31 years old when the season starts. Jim Bates preference is for a big DTs (like there's a defensive coordinator out there who prefers spindly ones).

That said, Rod Coleman is basically the closest thing the NFL has seen to John Randle in the last 15 years. Coleman’s 28 sacks from 2004-06 were the highest total by an NFL defensive tackle, 7.5 more than the next closest player, and tied for eighth among all players.

Of course, Rod's position coach during this productive stretch was none other than Bill Johnson.

We need pressure up the gut. A sudden penetrator like Maa Tanuvasa was a very underrated component of our back to back Championship squads.

If Coleman's age and lack of bulk drop his price, I hope we give him a serious look this summer.

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/294/tallcolemanoak5oz.jpg

What in the hell is up with you and undersized defensive lineman? Do you want to see LT/LJ rush for a 250 yards against us? First KGB now the smallest DT in the league?

You hate undersized LB's but love undersized DLineman? That doesn't even make sense.

[Dudeskey]

Oooh yes, I'd definitlely like this move... as long as we aren't overpaying of course.

[-Slap-]

What in the hell is up with you and undersized defensive lineman? Do you want to see LT/LJ rush for a 250 yards against us? First KGB now the smallest DT in the league?

You hate undersized LB's but love undersized DLineman? That doesn't even make sense.

White guys can't play defensive end, right Gonzo?

[broncs2bowl]

How much approximately would this BEAST cost

[GonzoLays]

White guys can't play defensive end, right Gonzo?

Trying to obfuscate the matter? I think so.

Getting back to the thread, why do you love undersized defensive lineman so much when you despise undersized lbs?

[Mediator12]

If they play a one gap scheme he is an Ideal UT style DT. If they play two gap like Bates likes to, then you need a big mountain DT instead.

[Drek]

If Coleman will sign cheap I'd be for it, but not as an every down DT. What I'd like to see is Terdell Sands and either Coleman, Corey Redding, or Cullen Jenkins brought in. Sands is the DT on first and second downs along with short yardage 3rds and 4th down attempts. One of the other three plays strong side DE on running downs opposite Ekuban. On passing downs Sands or Warren sits, the smaller DT moves in, and we line up Dumervil and Lang on the outsides.

It'd give us some versatility and enough depth that if someone gets hurt we aren't forced to play a pass rusher on running downs or a straight run stopper on passing downs.

[-Slap-]

Trying to obfuscate the matter? I think so.

Getting back to the thread, why do you love undersized defensive lineman so much when you despise undersized lbs?

You're the one who said white guys don't have what it takes to play defensive line, Gonzo. Why are you backing off that statement now?

[Rascal]

No. He is too undersized and with our smallish LB's we need some serious big boys up front.

I want Sands from Oakland.

[-Slap-]

Draft Patrick Willis (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profile.php?pyid=17257) @ 21 and we can play who we want up front.

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/6483/willisjpgw300h4218ze.jpg

6'2", 232 pounds, 4.55 in the 40.

Can play OLB or ILB.

Butkus Award winner.

SEC Defensive Player of the year.

Led the SEC in tackles for the second straight year.

First Team All American.

[Kaylore]

If they play a one gap scheme he is an Ideal UT style DT. If they play two gap like Bates likes to, then you need a big mountain DT instead.

That's why I'm hoping for another Keith Traylor type player (Who played for Gates and has five super bowl rings now). I would like a big physical presence on the inside that can overpower opponents more than another speed guy.

[Rascal]

We don't need a LB in the first round Slap. We either cut Ian right away and get a SLB in FA, or we stick with what we got. I'm guessing we'll stick with the LB's we have. Even if we cut Ian, we still have a huge hole at DT/DE to fill, and we have to get another LB and take a cap hit from Ian. That's expensive and it's not addressing the problem.

We need to fix the d-line plain and simple. Trying to improve the secondary or LB's will only cover the problem for a while (which will be against the better teams that can exploit that weakness). Improve the d-line and see how the secondary and LB core do. If they still struggle, then address them.

[Breck Bronc]

Draft Patrick Willis (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profile.php?pyid=17257) @ 21 and we can play who we want up front.

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/6483/willisjpgw300h4218ze.jpg

6'2", 232 pounds, 4.55 in the 40.

Can play OLB or ILB.

Butkus Award winner.

SEC Defensive Player of the year.

Led the SEC in tackles for the second straight year.

First Team All American.He looks like a freaking badass with the visor and club cast. It's too bad we won't be drafting linebackers early this year, I think.

Nick Barnett had one of those clubs at the end of the past season. It wouldn't matter if one of our linebackers broke a hand and had to wear a huge cast; collectively, they can't catch the ball.

[cutthemdown]

Any good players we can get. If its an undersized tackle that makes plays so be it. Broncos need some more horses.

[-Slap-]

We don't need a LB in the first round Slap. We either cut Ian right away and get a SLB in FA, or we stick with what we got. I'm guessing we'll stick with the LB's we have. Even if we cut Ian, we still have a huge hole at DT/DE to fill, and we have to get another LB and take a cap hit from Ian. That's expensive and it's not addressing the problem.

We need to fix the d-line plain and simple. Trying to improve the secondary or LB's will only cover the problem for a while (which will be against the better teams that can exploit that weakness). Improve the d-line and see how the secondary and LB core do. If they still struggle, then address them.

The linebacking corps needs someone who can make plays in all phases of the game. The group we have now is too one dimensional.

Last year we took the best offensive player in the most athletic conference.

This year we can take the best defensive player in the most athletic conference.

Look at this clip and tell me he's not a freaking badass.

Please note he sheds a blocker by himself before he ruins the kid with the ball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bM4sEmaFLQ&mode=related&search=

[-Slap-]

This kid is all about perfect tackling technique. You know, that's the kind of thing that can become contagious for a defense.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/1992/248xy.jpg

[2KBack]

I just really want a physical presence in the front 7, someone to fear and account for. I'd Prefer DT, but anywhere on that front 7 would help. Any disruption up there will only make Champ and the secondary better.

[broncosteven]

This kid is all about perfect tackling technique. You know, that's the kind of thing that can become contagious for a defense.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/1992/248xy.jpg

That was a sweet play. How was the rest of his career?

[Rascal]

I'm not doubting he isn't great Slap. But I think our defense would be better served getting a stud at the d-line, then getting a LB.

And I doubt he is available at 21 anyway.

[-Slap-]

That was a sweet play. How was the rest of his career?

Stellar.

First team All American two years in a row.

Leading tackler in the SEC two years in a row.

2006 Butkus Award winner.

2006 SEC Defensive Player of the Year.

You couldn't have a more productive college career. I think he could fill an OLB spot for now and move inside down the road when Al is ready to call it a career.

He's a tough minded kid. Patrick and three siblings were removed from their abusive father's home in 2002. His brother Detris drowned two years ago and he's dedicated his career to him.

Despite the hardships, he stayed in school through his senior season and earned a degree in criminal justice. On the field, he followed up a sensational junior season with an even better senior campaign.

If we drafted this kid, he would become the third most popular player on the team in about two years.

Draft Countdown Scouting Report (http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/scoutingreports/ilb/patrickwillis.html)

This state may never see another linebacker like Willis (http://www.cdispatch.com/articles/2006/12/30/sports/sports05.txt)

Rebs' Willis tackling machine (http://www.al.com/sports/mobileregister/index.ssf?/base/sports/1168769923139070.xml&coll=3)

[-Slap-]

I'm not doubting he isn't great Slap. But I think our defense would be better served getting a stud at the d-line, then getting a LB.

And I doubt he is available at 21 anyway.

If he is there, then all we have to do is go BAA, because there's very little chance anybody still on the board will be as accomplished.

I'm hopeful because we have a history of taking LBs early and we have a new defensive staff who have no reason to be sentimental about the starters we have in place right now. This kid would be ideal on the strongside until he's ready to transition inside.

I would throw up if we let him slide to San Diego, Indy or New England at the bottom of the round.

[2KBack]

Okay, Let's do it, put him at strongside, move DJ back to weak, and make Gold slim down for Safety. People at least won't Run on us.

[16-JakE-16]

1. We do not have the necessary weapons to move up for Willis.
2. Linebacker is the least of the defense's problems.

[16-JakE-16]

I would throw up if we let him slide to San Diego, Indy or New England at the bottom of the round.
So would I, except he's projected to be a top 15-20 pick.


Edit- I'm not sure what you have against our current linebackers, but if it's too much speed rather than power then Willis is anything but a solution. He's no bigger than D.J. Williams.

[-Slap-]

So would I, except he's projected to be a top 15-20 pick.


Edit- I'm not sure what you have against our current linebackers, but if it's too much speed rather than power then Willis is anything but a solution. He's no bigger than D.J. Williams.

I guess what I have against our current linebackers is they can't shed blocks or blitz worth a damn. That they wear down as the season progresses. That they never makes any big plays and they miss an alarming number of tackles.

I don't hold it against them how overrated they are, though. That's pretty much beyond their control.

[Kaylore]

Last year we took the best offensive player in the most athletic conference.
I just realized that's true! Hooray for our team! :D

[Clockwork Orange]

Carolina would do well to take Willis at #14. They probably won't as they'll likely just cross their fingers and hope that Dan Morgan will somehow make it through an entire season.

[GonzoLays]

Yes, let us draft a LB in the first round when really do not have a need at the position.

What's next, Slap, trade up and draft Brady Quinn?

You must be getting senile in your old age.

[-Slap-]

Yes, let us draft a LB in the first round when really do not have a need at the position.

What's next, Slap, trade up and draft Brady Quinn?

You must be getting senile in your old age.

As long as we don't draft a safety in the first round, right Gonzo?

That never works out.

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/5669/atwaterden2ay.jpg http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/1812/polamalu710886fe.jpg http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/7308/img80052909or.jpg

[GonzoLays]

As long as we don't draft a safety in the first round, right Gonzo?

That never works out.

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/5669/atwaterden2ay.jpg http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/1812/polamalu710886fe.jpg http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/7308/img80052909or.jpg

Tell everyone again how Demarcus Ware was a reach, Slap. Let everyone know again how Dallas made a blunder by selecting the Pro Bowl DE/OLB in the first round last year. Go ahead, enlighten everyone.

[-Slap-]

Tell everyone again how Demarcus Ware was a reach, Slap. Let everyone know again how Dallas made a blunder by selecting the Pro Bowl DE/OLB in the first round last year. Go ahead, enlighten everyone.

Hey, I was wrong. I should have known only black guys can play DE at the NFL level.

NFL gospel according to Gonzo.

[SureShot]

Draft Patrick Willis (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profile.php?pyid=17257) @ 21 and we can play who we want up front.

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/6483/willisjpgw300h4218ze.jpg

6'2", 232 pounds, 4.55 in the 40.

Can play OLB or ILB.

Butkus Award winner.

SEC Defensive Player of the year.

Led the SEC in tackles for the second straight year.

First Team All American.

Yes. Yes.Yes!

[Odysseus]

The linebacking corps needs someone who can make plays in all phases of the game. The group we have now is too one dimensional.

Last year we took the best offensive player in the most athletic conference.

This year we can take the best defensive player in the most athletic conference.

Look at this clip and tell me he's not a freaking badass.

Please note he sheds a blocker by himself before he ruins the kid with the ball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bM4sEmaFLQ&mode=related&search=

Broncos lost a starting CB. They need to consider bringing someone in at this position. Champ should not have to cover the whole field.

Broncos need a DT to bookend or replace Warren. (That would mean bring one in and draft one.)

Broncos need an impact LB whose not just a speed guy. A guy who can disrupt offenses, help create turnovers and augment a struggling DL.

Broncos need to look at drafting or bringing in a safety. It would be nice to have a larger safety who can handle multiple roles and responsibilities.

This is FOUR impact players just on defense. A few holes? The Broncos have to make a lot of changes just on defense. This doesn't include our needs for special teams or offense. The Broncos are going to have to play pat hands on some aspect of their game. They will suffer for it but they cannot afford to dump a lack of personnel on their new cadre of coaches.

[Odysseus]

Hey, I was wrong. I should have known only black guys can play DE at the NFL level.

NFL gospel according to Gonzo.

You are mistaken -SLAP-. Jason in LA is the expert on all things black. Ask Gonzo if he is current on his dues. Black people pay dues right? I bet he hasn't paid his dues.

[Arkansas Bronco]

That was a sweet play. How was the rest of his career?

I hate the Rebs but that kid is very good. If there is a hole in his game you need a pro. scout to tell you what it is cause I cant.

[Requiem]

Not only is Willis a beast; he's a first class human as well. Often spends his time helping out unfortunate kids or just going to schools to read and be a part of their lives. I believe his mom was murdered or died when he was young and his dad raised him and his siblings; abused them but still believed he was a good father. Worked in cotton fields with his grandma making money because his dad was a drunk who never did anything and basically has been paying the bills since he was 12 years old.

His brother recently died swimming a while ago and he promised him that "Some day we'd get all the money we need to take care of his family" and it looks like he'll live up to that promise. He's a good student too. This kid will undoubtedly pass the interview test and I actually teared up reading the ESPN article. I have his picture on my closet door and I'm a huge fan of his.

Kick Ian Gold to the ****in' curb and get this kid. He's the real deal. He'll be an all-time great.

[fontaine]

Draft Patrick Willis (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profile.php?pyid=17257) @ 21 and we can play who we want up front.

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/6483/willisjpgw300h4218ze.jpg

6'2", 232 pounds, 4.55 in the 40.

Can play OLB or ILB.

Butkus Award winner.

SEC Defensive Player of the year.

Led the SEC in tackles for the second straight year.

First Team All American.


Cool. Can I supersize that and get the DL version please?

[BroncoBuff]

Cool. Can I supersize that and get the DL version please?

Beautifully said ... I was thinking the same thing but didn't have the words.

[-Slap-]

Cool. Can I supersize that and get the DL version please?

There isn't a DL version this year. They come out about once a decade.

[fontaine]

There isn't a DL version this year. They come out about once a decade.

Yeah, just go ask Ryan Sims!
:rofl:

The DL class is pretty good though, or so I've been told. Probably means the FO will reach for the next Dorsett Davis in the 2nd round.

Maybe we can get Bryant Young for a year or two. Him and Patrick Kerney or Cory Redding and pray they get luck in April because I don't have much faith in this FO when it comes to DL in the draft.

[-Slap-]

I would cry if we left Willis on the board and reached for some defensive lineman @ 21.

[Steve Sewell]

If they play a one gap scheme he is an Ideal UT style DT. If they play two gap like Bates likes to, then you need a big mountain DT instead.

If that's the case, who do you see us signing if we go through FA to get him, Mediator? Will it be one of Bates' old players? Wonder, since Bates is so well liked, whether we'll get a hometown discount DT from one of his prior stints.

[Steve Sewell]

If he is there, then all we have to do is go BAA, because there's very little chance anybody still on the board will be as accomplished.

I'm hopeful because we have a history of taking LBs early and we have a new defensive staff who have no reason to be sentimental about the starters we have in place right now. This kid would be ideal on the strongside until he's ready to transition inside.

I would throw up if we let him slide to San Diego, Indy or New England at the bottom of the round.

Yeah, if Willis is there at 21 you take him and don't ask questions. I've seen him play and he's a once in 5 years type of player. I highly doubt he'll still be there at 21 anyway, though. That would be a total steal.

[fontaine]

I would cry if we left Willis on the board and reached for some defensive lineman @ 21.

Honestly I have no idea where this team is going in FA/Draft when it comes to the DL and I have an idea that they don't know either.

For the past three years we've been trying to get quicker across the front 7 to replicate Tampa Bay's defense. NONE of our DL can two gap and hold up blockers. Warren was supposed to use his quicks to penetrate the pocket instead of holding up blockers which he doesn't like!

Now we bring in Bates who's MO on DL is to have big interior DTs with edge rushers while LBs run around to make plays. Someone tell that to Al Wilson who's been playing 15 yards deep to play more coverage or Ian Gold that gets held up by blocking RBs.

I have no idea what Bates is going to do with an undersized DL that isn't suited to his scheme.

Time to reinvent the wheel I guess.

[Killericon]

Okay, -Slap-, quick question. I know that you're all about upgrading our Linebacker corps. Let me ask you, if we did draft this Willis guy, then what? He'd be strong side? Who do we get rid of, Gold or Williams?

What's always kind of fascinated me about your whole perception on this is how it's the spot that needs to be fixed right now. Even if I agreed with you about how our undersized linebackers can't get anything done no matter what the DLine looks like, I would still think that it's not our biggest area of need. To me, getting a big run-stopping linebacker is a luxury. A Huge DT is a need(Although, I love the Rod Coleman suggestion). So is finding some safety help. Are we sure that Fox can hold down the other side from Champ? Are we sure Brandon Marshall is a good enough #2 WR? Are our DEs good enough? All of these concerns and questions, IMO, must be answered before we go revamping the part of our team that people consider our best.

[-Slap-]

People are upset because our defensive linemen aren't turned loose to rush the quarterback, but they're not allowed to do that because they have to protect the littlebackers.

How about getting some linebackers who can handle their business like men, so we won't have to keep our linemen on a leash all the time?

This five safety scheme we've been running the last five years is like the death of a thousand cuts.

[Rohirrim]

http://www.canmag.com/images/front/people2/garycoleman.jpg
So, you really think this guy could help us out? Isn't he a little short for the position? I didn't even know he played ball.

[-Slap-]

Okay, -Slap-, quick question. I know that you're all about upgrading our Linebacker corps. Let me ask you, if we did draft this Willis guy, then what? He'd be strong side? Who do we get rid of, Gold or Williams?

What's always kind of fascinated me about your whole perception on this is how it's the spot that needs to be fixed right now. Even if I agreed with you about how our undersized linebackers can't get anything done no matter what the DLine looks like, I would still think that it's not our biggest area of need. To me, getting a big run-stopping linebacker is a luxury. A Huge DT is a need(Although, I love the Rod Coleman suggestion). So is finding some safety help. Are we sure that Fox can hold down the other side from Champ? Are we sure Brandon Marshall is a good enough #2 WR? Are our DEs good enough? All of these concerns and questions, IMO, must be answered before we go revamping the part of our team that people consider our best.

Yeah, those littlebackers did such a great job this year they got their DC thrown out of his job. I was so impressed by their inability to record a single turnover between them, their sloppy tackling and how worthless they are blitzing the quarterback.

The morons in the national media see two first rounders and a high second rounder and they just assume they must be good. The apologists on this board are so deep in denial it would be comical to me, if didn't have to root for the same soft-as-Charmin, finesse defense.

[-Slap-]

http://www.canmag.com/images/front/people2/garycoleman.jpg
So, you really think this guy could help us out? Isn't he a little short for the position? I didn't even know he played ball.

Whatchoo talkin' 'bout?

That's Arnold Jackson, not his brother.

[Killericon]

Yeah, those littlebackers did such a great job this year they got their DC thrown out of his job. I was so impressed by their inability to record a single turnover between them, their sloppy tackling and how worthless they are blitzing the quarterback.

The morons in the national media see two first rounders and a high second rounder and they just assume they must be good. The apologists on this board are so deep in denial it would be comical to me, if didn't have to root for the same soft-as-Charmin, finesse defense.

Okay, fine. You're practically convincing me. However, I'm still curious...Keep Wilson, and cut/trade who? Gold or Williams?

[azbroncfan]

Stellar.

First team All American two years in a row.

Leading tackler in the SEC two years in a row.

2006 Butkus Award winner.

2006 SEC Defensive Player of the Year.

You couldn't have a more productive college career. I think he could fill an OLB spot for now and move inside down the road when Al is ready to call it a career.

He's a tough minded kid. Patrick and three siblings were removed from their abusive father's home in 2002. His brother Detris drowned two years ago and he's dedicated his career to him.

Despite the hardships, he stayed in school through his senior season and earned a degree in criminal justice. On the field, he followed up a sensational junior season with an even better senior campaign.

If we drafted this kid, he would become the third most popular player on the team in about two years.

Draft Countdown Scouting Report (http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/scoutingreports/ilb/patrickwillis.html)

This state may never see another linebacker like Willis (http://www.cdispatch.com/articles/2006/12/30/sports/sports05.txt)

Rebs' Willis tackling machine (http://www.al.com/sports/mobileregister/index.ssf?/base/sports/1168769923139070.xml&coll=3)

Say no to LB. I think it is the most overrated position in FB. You can plug 4th and 5th rounders and they can play at an acceptable level. LB is all about the DL up front.

I posted how I would fix the DL a couple months ago and Rod Coleman was a part of that. I would like Denver to consider signing him.

[-Slap-]

Say no to LB. I think it is the most overrated position in FB. You can plug 4th and 5th rounders and they can play at an acceptable level. LB is all about the DL up front.


Put this in the time capsule of worst takes ever, and on this board, that's quite a feat.

Diminished linebacker play is the primary (non Reche Caldwell) reason New England isn't going to XLI.

[Rohirrim]

Put this in the time capsule of worst takes ever, and on this board, that's quite a feat.

Diminished linebacker play is the primary (non Reche Caldwell) reason New England isn't going to XLI.

Oh, it's spelled Reche? I thought it was Retch. ROFL!

[-Slap-]

Its pronounced Ree-shay.

The literal translation is bugeyed butterfingers.

[SureShot]

Put this in the time capsule of worst takes ever, and on this board, that's quite a feat.

Diminished linebacker play is the primary (non Reche Caldwell) reason New England isn't going to XLI.

It almost cost them the San Diego game as well. They looked quite feeble chasing LT sideline to sideline.

Vote Willis "07

[Rohirrim]

Its pronounced Ree-shay.

The literal translation is bugeyed butterfingers.

Hell, he looks like he could catch mosquitos in the dark.

[SureShot]

Hell, he looks like he could catch mosquitos in the dark.

18423

[ColoradoBuff]

Not only is Willis a beast; he's a first class human as well. Often spends his time helping out unfortunate kids or just going to schools to read and be a part of their lives. I believe his mom was murdered or died when he was young and his dad raised him and his siblings; abused them but still believed he was a good father. Worked in cotton fields with his grandma making money because his dad was a drunk who never did anything and basically has been paying the bills since he was 12 years old.

His brother recently died swimming a while ago and he promised him that "Some day we'd get all the money we need to take care of his family" and it looks like he'll live up to that promise. He's a good student too. This kid will undoubtedly pass the interview test and I actually teared up reading the ESPN article. I have his picture on my closet door and I'm a huge fan of his.

Kick Ian Gold to the ****in' curb and get this kid. He's the real deal. He'll be an all-time great.

Quoted for truth.......it's time Ian moves on and we get somebody like Willis that can actually tackle and cover. Remind you that we go against the best 2 RB's in the game twice a year in Johnson and Tomlinson.......not to say what they did was Gold's fault, but damn that guy needs to learn how to tackle!

[Killericon]

Put this in the time capsule of worst takes ever, and on this board, that's quite a feat.

Diminished linebacker play is the primary (non Reche Caldwell) reason New England isn't going to XLI.

-Slap-, please!

Gold or DJ? One would have to go!

[ColoradoBuff]

-Slap-, please!

Gold or DJ? One would have to go!

Gold:thumbsup:

[ColoradoBuff]

http://www.steel-arrow.com/images/ljjuke.gif

Here is a fine example of how well Gold tackles and takes angles. Poor Wilson has to shove him out of the way!!!!!!!

[Killericon]

http://www.steel-arrow.com/images/ljjuke.gif

Here is a fine example of how well Gold tackles and takes angles. Poor Wilson has to shove him out of the way!!!!!!!

Yea, but is it worth it to take the cap hit?

[ColoradoBuff]

Yea, but is it worth it to take the cap hit?

Trade him back to Tampa Bay so he could be with Coyer. Does anybosy know what his exact cap hit would be?

[BroncoBuff]

1. We do not have the necessary weapons to move up for Willis.
2. Linebacker is the least of the defense's problems.
Of course you're right about both those points (although we could move up for Willis if we sold the farm).

But I'm still with Slap and the rest on this issue .... our Mini-Backers don't make plays. None. Ever. Totals for all three were one sacks, no INTs. In fact, the last big play Gold made was batting down Brunell's pass to seal a win over the Redskins in the rain at Invesco ... in 2005!

And the system of our linemen protecting the LBs? That's gotta go. "Bend But Don't Break" was fine for Joe Collier and Greg Robinson, but this is a difrerent NFL today ... where situational running and the possession passing game can kill you.

The good news is: the system is HISTORY with the new coaching. So now, why not break the bank a bit for Adelius Thomas? He can play that hybrid DeMarcus Ware LB/DE position even in our 4-3. It's all about situations, as we've seen with Chukwurah and Dumervil. Line him up all over the place like Merriman.

[broncs2bowl]

Just wonderin why the HECK did the mods join a Rod Coleman and Patrick Willis thread. I WANT TO TLK ABOUT COLEMAN! I could care less about Willis but it seems everyone else does. This has turned into a thread on bashing our best unit: our linebackers!

[-Slap-]

Just wonderin why the HECK did the mods join a Rod Coleman and Patrick Willis thread. I WANT TO TLK ABOUT COLEMAN! I could care less about Willis but it seems everyone else does. This has turned into a thread on bashing our best unit: our linebackers!

Don't blame the mods. When I started talking about Willis, I decided to edit the title to include both topics.

The linebackers deserve to be bashed. The whole scheme is designed for those guys to make plays and they were AWOL all year.

[broncs2bowl]

Yo slap!! You have basically 28,000!!!!!!! posts. OMG! Do you have the most posts.

[-Slap-]

Yo slap!! You have basically 28,000!!!!!!! posts. OMG! Do you have the most posts.

Top five or so.

They've all been high caliber, too. Even the ones where I tell someone to eat caca have a certain panache.

[broncs2bowl]

Ill catch up to you someday, ive only been here for 4 days or so! IM COMIN FOR YOU!

[2KBack]

Can't just bash gold for the LB play this season. All three played pretty miserably, dispite Al's pro bowl berth. Gold struggled to latch on, Al would hit without wrapping up, and DJ was never around.

[OrangeShadow]

Id be ok with drafting the kid if we adress DL through free agency(terell sands rather than coleman though). Id put willis at strongside and DJ back at weakside

[azbroncfan]

Put this in the time capsule of worst takes ever, and on this board, that's quite a feat.

Diminished linebacker play is the primary (non Reche Caldwell) reason New England isn't going to XLI.

WHat it is stupid to take LB's high when your team plays a 4-3. If you play 3-4 you can take Merriman, Ware types high and the rest can easily be had later since most teams play a 4-3. 4-3 LB's are only as good as the guys upfront period. You can call that a bad take but it's the truth.

[BroncoBuff]

http://www.steel-arrow.com/images/ljjuke.gif

Here is a fine example of how well Gold tackles and takes angles. Poor Wilson has to shove him out of the way!!!!!!!

Slap recently said Nate Webster took the worst tackling angles ever ... but I think he's second place now.

[-Slap-]

Slap recently said Nate Webster took the worst tackling angles ever ... but I think he's second place now.

I would put what happened to Ian here more into the juked-out-of-his-jock category.

Webster seems to overestimate his closing speed in space and ballcarriers consistently turn the corner on him. Maybe he remembers the speed he used to have and he hasn't compensated.

[-Slap-]

WHat it is stupid to take LB's high when your team plays a 4-3. If you play 3-4 you can take Merriman, Ware types high and the rest can easily be had later since most teams play a 4-3. 4-3 LB's are only as good as the guys upfront period. You can call that a bad take but it's the truth.

I think a lot of fans don't really understand how to tell a good linebacker from a bad one. They assume every time a linebacker jumps around pumping his fist, he's done something special, which is the signature move around here.

I guess its a lot more simple when looking at defensive backs, who are isolated out in the open on receivers, and tell if they're doing a good job.

Same thing with defensive linemen. If Gorgo's not getting past his man, he must be having a terrible game.

Bad reads and false steps don't matter. Only 40 times.

According to your theory Butkus, Lambert, Schmidt, Lewis, Urlacher, Jordan are all run of the mill players, roughly as valuable as Allen Aldridge or Dave Wyman.

[azbroncfan]

I think a lot of fans don't really understand how to tell a good linebacker from a bad one. They assume every time a linebacker jumps around pumping his fist, he's done something special, which is the signature move around here.

I guess its a lot more simple when looking at defensive backs, who are isolated out in the open on receivers, and tell if they're doing a good job.

Same thing with defensive linemen. If Gorgo's not getting past his man, he must be having a terrible game.

Bad reads and false steps don't matter. Only 40 times.

According to your theory Butkus, Lambert, Schmidt, Lewis, Urlacher, Jordan are all run of the mill players, roughly as valuable as Allen Aldridge or Dave Wyman.

Well I do realize that Lambert is a 2nd rounder and played behind a great DL. Butkus didn't watch him too young, Lewis and Urlacher play behind upper level DL's. Jordan and Schmidt not sure. But what I am saying is LB is easiest position to transition to NFL and you can find solid to all pro starters later in the Draft. I realize you are the all world knowledge and you can't help it that your opinions are always right. :approve:

[Killericon]

I think a lot of fans don't really understand how to tell a good linebacker from a bad one. They assume every time a linebacker jumps around pumping his fist, he's done something special, which is the signature move around here.

I guess its a lot more simple when looking at defensive backs, who are isolated out in the open on receivers, and tell if they're doing a good job.

Same thing with defensive linemen. If Gorgo's not getting past his man, he must be having a terrible game.

Bad reads and false steps don't matter. Only 40 times.

According to your theory Butkus, Lambert, Schmidt, Lewis, Urlacher, Jordan are all run of the mill players, roughly as valuable as Allen Aldridge or Dave Wyman.

GOLD OR WILLIAMS?!?

THIS IS DRIVING ME CRAZY!

[-Slap-]

GOLD OR WILLIAMS?!?

THIS IS DRIVING ME CRAZY!

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/2572/coinflip44844hb.jpg

Keep DJ.

[DBroncos4life]

so did we get anywhere with that atlanta coach? Ive pimped Rod for a few weeks now he would be great here.

[Killericon]

I would looooove to have Rod Coleman. Then, turn our focus in the draft to picking up a solid multi-dimensional DE like Carriker in the draft. A Broncos line looking like this:

Carriker - Coleman - Warren - Dumervil/Lang

Would be amazing. If our LBers struggled with a line that looked like that, then I'll hop on -Slap-'s bandwagon.

Oh, by the way, thanks -Slap-. Williams would've been my choice as well. ;)

[fontaine]

I think a lot of fans don't really understand how to tell a good linebacker from a bad one. They assume every time a linebacker jumps around pumping his fist, he's done something special, which is the signature move around here.

Allright I'll take you up on this.

I don't think our LBers suck at all.

Traditionally you had to have you're LBers read the play right to begin with. This allowed them to not take false steps at the snap. Most NFL LBs take false steps.

Then you had to have guys that shed well. No use in having a 250 ILB who can't get past a Guard to put a helmet on the RB. Lastly, those guys have to have proper tackling technique. Most LBs in the NFL, even the big guys in a 4-3 can't shed OL as often as they should. Even smaller OL like Coop/Ham regularily plow through 250 ILBs.

ALL three areas of have gone down across the board in the NFL in general.

1. Coaches don't like full contact drills any more because guys get hurt. So tackling/shedding technique suffers.

2. Too much emphasis on 40 times and less on instincts. When a guy like DJ can go in the top 15 even though he has zero instincts and read abilities then it says it all. DJ is a damn fine athlete but so far in the league he has very little instincts and his play recognition is average. He gets by on athletic ability mostly.

But the one thing our LBers do excel in is coverage and that's across the board. That's why they are considered very good as a group. All three are every down LBers but DJ comes off since Gold is that much quicker in coverage.

If you do want to bring in a top LB in the draft them I'm all for it. If this Willis guy does fall then go ahead and pick him.

I think we could move Gold to SS anyway in that case because he's faster than our safeties right now and plays a ton of coverage anyway right?

But I still maintain that we can have all the LB talent in the world back there and it wont matter a damn unless we have starting caliber DL and not castoffs from the bargain basement.

[BroncoBuff]

I think we could move Gold to SS anyway in that case because he's faster than our safeties right now and plays a ton of coverage anyway right?
That idea is strangely compelling, I suggested the same thing last year when everybody was looking to get DJ back to Will. But then ... Gold was badly embarassed in coverage by Shockey for two big catches in the final drive that sealed the last-second loss to the Giants. So I'm not so sure it's such a great idea anymore.

[fontaine]

That idea is strangely compelling, I suggested the same thing last year when everybody was looking to get DJ back to Will. But then ... Gold was badly embarassed in coverage by Shockey for two big catches in the final drive that sealed the last-second loss to the Giants. So I'm not so sure it's such a great idea anymore.

You mean the catch where Manning admitted he just threw it up there without accuracy and hoped his TE would make the play?

Shockey did make the play but otherwise our defense has been among the top of the league defending TEs since Gold came over so I'll take that over one game.

I think Gold would make a very, very good SS. The question is would he move to a less glamorous position? Gold is far more athletic, and quicker than Ferguson/Lynch and would be give us the same physical presence once Lynch moves on.

I doubt it happen though. The coaches seem far too enamoured with Gold's speed at LB.

[fontaine]

I wonder what it would take to trade for Albert Haynesworth?

[ColoradoBuff]

You mean the catch where Manning admitted he just threw it up there without accuracy and hoped his TE would make the play?

Shockey did make the play but otherwise our defense has been among the top of the league defending TEs since Gold came over so I'll take that over one game.

I think Gold would make a very, very good SS. The question is would he move to a less glamorous position? Gold is far more athletic, and quicker than Ferguson/Lynch and would be give us the same physical presence once Lynch moves on.

I doubt it happen though. The coaches seem far too enamoured with Gold's speed at LB.

That is all that he brings to the table....speed. We need someone that can wrap up and tackle once in awhile....and he just doesn't cut it on a consistent basis!

[want2bAbronco2]

ive said for several weeks I would love to trade Gold and sign Thomas! Of course I would rather sign Samuel (sp?) CB from NE and draft DE 1st DE 2nd FS 3rd, DE 3rd, and SS 3rd (trade for another ).

[fontaine]

Adalius Thomas = Overhyped System player.

I wanted to sign him a couple of years ago when he was young.

At the money he's going to command now, why the hell should we fork over $10million in guarantees to a 30 year old?

If we wanted that we could have kept Trevor Pryce.

[azbroncfan]

That idea is strangely compelling, I suggested the same thing last year when everybody was looking to get DJ back to Will. But then ... Gold was badly embarassed in coverage by Shockey for two big catches in the final drive that sealed the last-second loss to the Giants. So I'm not so sure it's such a great idea anymore.

You didn't mention Williams inability to beat barber one on one on a blitz that would of sacked manning winning the game instead Manning kept backing up til Toomer came open.

[-Slap-]

Adalius Thomas = Overhyped System player.

I wanted to sign him a couple of years ago when he was young.

At the money he's going to command now, why the hell should we fork over $10million in guarantees to a 30 year old?

I wanted to sign Adalius Thomas when he was the only 270 pound gunner in NFL history. Of course, at 270, that made him a good 50 pounds too heavy to play LB in Denver.

I disagree with the assessment of him as strictly a system player, but his cost is prohibitive now.

[socalorado]

OK - SLAP ive read and sat through all the retoric, (YOU DO HAVE A sH!t LOAD OF POST!!!) so tell us what your defense would look like after this years draft and FA is over. I actually am starting to listen to this whole LB thing, but i want to know how we adress the DL as well. I think that this is still by far our WEAKEST spot and the BIGGEST problem.

[broncosteven]

I think we could move Gold to SS anyway in that case because he's faster than our safeties right now and plays a ton of coverage anyway right?

But I still maintain that we can have all the LB talent in the world back there and it wont matter a damn unless we have starting caliber DL and not castoffs from the bargain basement.

Gold at SS is interesting but where does that leave Lynch? Can Lynch handle FS at his age? I don't think Furgy is the answer, Brandon would be nice to see step it up a notch. Would like to see youth or Stud FA come in.

I say keep gold on this year but draft a SAM LB low that can play ST & work in the D next year. Then move DJ over to Will next year.

They need to move up this year & get a stud DL that can make an impact this year.

I see the following:
2-3 FA's coming in, no more than that
Trading at least 1 active starter from 2006.
Moving up in the Draft
typical Post draft FA's

I hope I am right.

Edit: What a limb huh! LOL

[broncs2bowl]

Our LB corp is the least of our worries

[orange crusher]

LB isn't high on my list for the draft, but I don't think I would complain if we had a chance to get this kid at 21. I guess it would just depend on who's left on the board. If we don't go DLine, it will need to be addressed in FA and I'm not sure we have the cap room to bring in the help needed there.

[broncs2bowl]

Tell me more about Terrell Sands. I know he is big and all and can stuff and control 2 gaps. But is the guy a pass rusher/pocket collapser

[kappys]

No. He can stuff the run as a 2 gap tackle, thats all you're going to get from him . But I think in the case of Sands its worth it . He does that job extremely well and I think it allows you to line up Dummervil next to him without worrying too much about teams running it down our throats

[broncs2bowl]

Well even with Dummervil next to him it wont help because he wont occupy blockers in pass situations and Dummervil will get doubled

[elsid13]

I would cry if we left Willis on the board and reached for some defensive lineman @ 21.

So what are you going to do if we pick a WR or offense lineman ??? Because I have strange feeling that the way Denver is going.

[-Slap-]

So what are you going to do if we pick a WR or offense lineman ??? Because I have strange feeling that the way Denver is going.

I could see going for Ginn or maybe Jarrett @ 21, but I don't believe we'll see strong OL value at that spot.

[Arkansas Bronco]

So far during todays Sr. Bowl practice I think the DL >OL well at least on the north just started the south practice.

[azbroncfan]

Tell me more about Terrell Sands. I know he is big and all and can stuff and control 2 gaps. But is the guy a pass rusher/pocket collapser

He is a 2nd string guy playing behind Sapp and Kelly. He played well when he did play and if he isn't getting a push he is tall enough to bat passes down. He is a good pickup if it doesn't require too large of a contract.

[SureShot]

Sign him and pay Jumpy Geathers to teach him the "Forklift".

[-Slap-]

If anybody needs another reason to like Patrick Willis, his boyhood idol was Al Wilson.

I wonder if that came up at the interview today.......:)

Talent and character help Patrick Willis succeed (http://www.jacksonsun.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061218/NEWS01/612180307)

By BOB HEIST

Early on, Patrick Willis idolized Walter Payton, the Chicago Bears' Hall of Fame running back. Later it was Jackson Central-Merry's Al Wilson, who won nearly every honor possible for the Cougars before helping to lead Tennessee to an undefeated 1998 national championship. Wilson is now on his way to a possible fifth Pro Bowl selection at linebacker for the Denver Broncos.

Payton and Wilson were on television. They were famous. They were what Willis dreamed of being.......more (http://www.jacksonsun.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061218/NEWS01/612180307)

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/9168/958705653yg.jpg
Patrick Willis holds the 2006 Butkus Award

When the NFL holds its annual draft in April, Willis is sure to go in the first round. That hasn't happened in West Tennessee since his boyhood idol, Wilson, was taken No. 31 overall in 1999 by Denver.

Kiper, the ESPN analyst, has Willis rated as the draft's top linebacker and calls him, "A tackling machine. He's such an instinctive player; when I watch him on film, he has instantaneous reaction on a play. He's fun to watch because wherever the ball is, he is. He's a first-round pick. Period."

Ole Miss linebackers coach Dave Saunders calls Willis, "The ultimate competitor. When the football gods drew up a linebacker, they were thinking of Patrick Willis."

[NFLBRONCO]

This Willis argument makes sense I think front 7 as a whole needs to get more physical. Be interesting to see how many changes in front 7 actually occur.

[BroncoBuff]

If anybody needs another reason to like Patrick Willis, his boyhood idol was Al Wilson.

I wonder if that came up at the interview today.......:)


http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/9168/958705653yg.jpg
Patrick Willis holds the 2006 Butkus Award

I'm convinced, with the Al Wilson quote ... how high will he go?

Besides, we can get D-Line in free agency and later in the draft.

[RunSilentRunDeep]

Aside from his talent, the guy seems obsessed with football which will make all the difference in his continued development after the signing bonus has been cashed. Had to love the fact that before he went to the senior bowl he researched Mike Singletary’s career because he wanted to be respectful of his coach for the week.

[ludo21]

I just cant see us taking a LB Slap.

Maybe if we move down into the top of the 2nd, but at 21 he aint worth that high.

[-Slap-]

Aside from his talent, the guy seems obsessed with football which will make all the difference in his continued development after the signing bonus has been cashed. Had to love the fact that before he went to the senior bowl he researched Mike Singletary’s career because he wanted to be respectful of his coach for the week.

It seems like every new thing I read about this kid is something impressive.

The thing that sucks is I just know if we pass on him @ 21 he'll wind up in New England, San Diego, Baltimore or Indy later in the round.

[2KBack]

you're making me excited about this guy as a prospect, and that sucks because I seriously doubt Denver picks him up.

[azbroncfan]

It seems like every new thing I read about this kid is something impressive.

The thing that sucks is I just know if we pass on him @ 21 he'll wind up in New England, San Diego, Baltimore or Indy later in the round.

Slap's offically gone Jakie 4 Life on willis. :approve:

[-Slap-]

Slap's offically gone Jakie 4 Life on willis. :approve:

Nah, if we don't draft him, I'll let it go. I wanted us to trade up for Urlacher much worse and I wanted to draft Ed Reed at least this badly.

[azbroncfan]

Nah, if we don't draft him, I'll let it go. I wanted us to trade up for Urlacher much worse and I wanted to draft Ed Reed at least this badly.


Well it is too bad you weren't in charge.

[Rascal]

It might have been mentioned but apparently the Broncos were talking a lot with Ray McDonald and Patrick Willis.

[-Slap-]

Well it is too bad you weren't in charge.

I spent three months begging for Urlacher and three years pouting about not getting him.

Brian Urlacher >>> Deltha O'Neal/Ian Gold/Kennoy "Death to Flying Things" Kennedy.

http://www.drafthistory.com/years/2000.html

[Odysseus]

I spent three months begging for Urlacher and three years pouting about not getting him.

Brian Urlacher >>> Deltha O'Neal/Ian Gold/Kennoy "Death to Flying Things" Kennedy.

http://www.drafthistory.com/years/2000.html

I think watching some of the other championship defenses has brought this flaw to light. Speed is not everything. I would love to see the Broncos aggressively upgrade the linebacking core.

[SouthStndJunkie]

Slap,

I agree with everything you have said about Patrick Willis. I would have no problem at all drafting him at 21.

Great player, great leader, and a great person.

[NFLBRONCO]

I'm on board with Willis if that is the direction we go at 21. AL is declining starting to miss games. DJ is on his last year of contract. Gold is small year older. We need bodies to groom.

[SouthStndJunkie]

Willis is going to step into some teams lineup and play at a high level for 10-12 years.

[-Slap-]

Willis is going to step into some teams lineup and play at a high level for 10-12 years.

I'm just hoping he doesn't go to an AFC rival.

[SouthStndJunkie]

I'm just hoping he doesn't go to an AFC rival.

Let's hope he makes it to 21.

[Mediator12]

Wow, what a thread this evolved into.

I will say this about great Middle LB's. They all benefitted from great DL in front of them and a scheme that funneled runs into them. Hell even Urlacher looked normal a couple of years ago when he lost his dominant DT's protecting him against the inside runs. Even this year since Tommie Harris and Mike Brown were injured he has not been as effective against the run and neither have the Bears.

Another thing Urlacher has is a Safety's coverage ability too. Pat Willis does not have NFL coverage skills because Ole Miss never made him cover. He takes more false steps in coverage than any of DEN's LB's including DJ williams. He has poor awareness with his back to the ball in man coverage and in case you all missed it, Bates plays press man coverage and Willis is going to get caught in space covering LT, LJ, and even Lamont Jordan.

And for the final time, this years system was not a two gap DT and read DE scheme. It was a one gap penetration scheme like the Tampa Two with cover three principles behind it. The DL could not even execute their basic one gap responsibilities 70% of the time and no one here even realized that. What happens when the DL blows their responsibilities? It filters back into the back seven to cover for them. That is what made them exhausted down the stretch. Poor DL play made the rest of the defense look even worse than they were.

Now, did the LB's play well this year. Hell no. They were great in the first six games but they did wear down and failed to swarm as the season went on. Kirk Doll never got their respect from what I have heard, and he is now gone. Ian Gold was very inconsistent, DJ was manic depressive, and AL showed real signs of wear and tear.

What got Coyer Canned was the lack of execution from the front seven, not the LB's alone. It starts with one of the weakest DL's in the whole NFL made up entirely of retreads drafted by other teams and obtained from their trash except Dumervil who was exceptional in his role. The front Seven was pathetic the last five games of the year Except SEA and the first half of the SF game. Coyer was fired because the defense played its worst on the field when it meant the most. They freakin quit on him and the rest of the team and Mailed it in just like every year down the stretch. No pass Rush and No DL dominance = 1 playoff win since 98 and Coyer was the latest DC to get the ax for poor talent at the most important position on defense.

Oh Yeah, Is Rod Coleman even a FA? I have not seen his name anywhere I have looked. If he is, a one Gap penetrating team will overpay to get him because he fits the scheme as an UT. Denver is not going to play that way and Keith Traylor and Robaire Smith would be the most likely options in FA. Neither is a game changer, but they would be awesome in Bates two gap DT roles. Plus, they would be reasonably affordable in this market.

[NFLBRONCO]

Wow, what a thread this evolved into.

I will say this about great Middle LB's. They all benefitted from great DL in front of them and a scheme that funneled runs into them. Hell even Urlacher looked normal a couple of years ago when he lost his dominant DT's protecting him against the inside runs. Even this year since Tommie Harris and Mike Brown were injured he has not been as effective against the run and neither have the Bears.

Another thing Urlacher has is a Safety's coverage ability too. Pat Willis does not have NFL coverage skills because Ole Miss never made him cover. He takes more false steps in coverage than any of DEN's LB's including DJ williams. He has poor awareness with his back to the ball in man coverage and in case you all missed it, Bates plays press man coverage and Willis is going to get caught in space covering LT, LJ, and even Lamont Jordan.

And for the final time, this years system was not a two gap DT and read DE scheme. It was a one gap penetration scheme like the Tampa Two with cover three principles behind it. The DL could not even execute their basic one gap responsibilities 70% of the time and no one here even realized that. What happens when the DL blows their responsibilities? It filters back into the back seven to cover for them. That is what made them exhausted down the stretch. Poor DL play made the rest of the defense look even worse than they were.

Now, did the LB's play well this year. Hell no. They were great in the first six games but they did wear down and failed to swarm as the season went on. Kirk Doll never got their respect from what I have heard, and he is now gone. Ian Gold was very inconsistent, DJ was manic depressive, and AL showed real signs of wear and tear.

What got Coyer Canned was the lack of execution from the front seven, not the LB's alone. It starts with one of the weakest DL's in the whole NFL made up entirely of retreads drafted by other teams and obtained from their trash except Dumervil who was exceptional in his role. The front Seven was pathetic the last five games of the year Except SEA and the first half of the SF game. Coyer was fired because the defense played its worst on the field when it meant the most. They freakin quit on him and the rest of the team and Mailed it in just like every year down the stretch. No pass Rush and No DL dominance = 1 playoff win since 98 and Coyer was the latest DC to get the ax for poor talent at the most important position on defense.

Oh Yeah, Is Rod Coleman even a FA? I have not seen his name anywhere I have looked. If he is, a one Gap penetrating team will overpay to get him because he fits the scheme as an UT. Denver is not going to play that way and Keith Traylor and Robaire Smith would be the most likely options in FA. Neither is a game changer, but they would be awesome in Bates two gap DT roles. Plus, they would be reasonably affordable in this market.

Any chance we trade DJ this offseason? Just asking not suggesting it.

[Mediator12]

Any chance we trade DJ this offseason? Just asking not suggesting it.

I have no idea why they would want to do that, but anything is possible with Shanahan. Trades are becoming more viable with the Salary cap room. DJ has a favorable contract right now and three years of tape for some Front office Pro-scout to fall in love with his measurables and potential I guess. So, yeah there is a chance but not a very good one at this point.

[maven]

Any chance we trade DJ this offseason? Just asking not suggesting it.

He's cheap. He stays.

[NFLBRONCO]

I have no idea why they would want to do that, but anything is possible with Shanahan. Trades are becoming more viable with the Salary cap room. DJ has a favorable contract right now and three years of tape for some Front office Pro-scout to fall in love with his measurables and potential I guess. So, yeah there is a chance but not a very good one at this point.


Thanks Med

Only reason I thought of it is DJ is in his last year of his contract. So I wondered if Shanny would shop him this offseason. I guess we will let his contract expire and hope we can resign him.

[maven]

I have no idea why they would want to do that, but anything is possible with Shanahan. Trades are becoming more viable with the Salary cap room. DJ has a favorable contract right now and three years of tape for some Front office Pro-scout to fall in love with his measurables and potential I guess. So, yeah there is a chance but not a very good one at this point.

He's cheap. He stays.

[-Slap-]

Another thing Urlacher has is a Safety's coverage ability too. Pat Willis does not have NFL coverage skills because Ole Miss never made him cover. He takes more false steps in coverage than any of DEN's LB's including DJ williams. He has poor awareness with his back to the ball in man coverage and in case you all missed it, Bates plays press man coverage and Willis is going to get caught in space covering LT, LJ, and even Lamont Jordan.

I read professional scouts who said Patrick Willis' coverage skills looked better than expected at the Senior Bowl.

I'm sure a kid with his athletic ability and work ethic could never develop into a good enough coverage linebacker to succeed in Jim Bates' scheme. That requires someone with the speed and agility of six time Pro Bowler Zach Thomas.

[-Slap-]

And for the final time, this years system was not a two gap DT and read DE scheme. It was a one gap penetration scheme like the Tampa Two with cover three principles behind it. The DL could not even execute their basic one gap responsibilities 70% of the time and no one here even realized that. What happens when the DL blows their responsibilities? It filters back into the back seven to cover for them. That is what made them exhausted down the stretch. Poor DL play made the rest of the defense look even worse than they were.

The linebackers were just as bad as the defensive line this year. Much worse when you consider the disparity in pay between the starters in both units.

Now, did the LB's play well this year. Hell no. They were great in the first six games but they did wear down and failed to swarm as the season went on. Kirk Doll never got their respect from what I have heard, and he is now gone. Ian Gold was very inconsistent, DJ was manic depressive, and AL showed real signs of wear and tear.

They were great in the first six games because we were playing garbage or temporarily discombobulated offenses. The defensive line played well in those games, too. What a surprise to hear the babybackers disrespected their position coach, too. Superstar egos and paychecks for run of the mill production.

[Mediator12]

I read professional scouts who said Patrick Willis' coverage skills looked better than expected at the Senior Bowl.

I'm sure a kid with his athletic ability and work ethic could never develop into a good enough coverage linebacker to succeed in Jim Bates' scheme. That requires someone with the speed and agility of six time Pro Bowler Zach Thomas.

I have read both ways with the majority of the positive ones using the self fulfilling prophesy of their already high ratings of Willis. More importantly though, I saw the reactions of the coaches watching him in coverage. The Only RB worth a darn in the flat down there was Booker who took him to school on at least three plays that I saw. The TE's were downright awful so I will not even go there.

As for Bates scheme, find the two DT's necessary to run it and Willis is in great shape. Then, find two consistent DE's to rush the passer and Willis will look great covering the flats. Otherwise, Willis is going to look a little more human on the next level.

He is a great talent and will be a fine LB unless he lands behind a weak DL. Bates scheme with this DL talent may make him look more like Ian Gold than you would like though.

[Vladimir]

I want to see Kerney and Coleman

Jamal Lewis from the Ravens would be nice as well.

[Kaylore]

The TE's were downright awful so I will not even go there.

I will then. The one area you couldn't get a great bead on linebackers in the senior bowl was coverage. The tight ends and running backs in the passing game sucked across the board and were generally not athletic enough to really challenge anyone in any way.

-Slap- prefers linebackers that are larger who defend the rushes up the middle, can take guys head on, and rush the passer. He's a 3-4 type guy. The problem is many of these guys do other things poorly, especially in a 4-3.

Julian Peterson was pretty scary when Frank Gore ran at him and Alex Smith saw his face a lot when he dropped back to pass. Then Norv Turner started attacking the edges with roll-outs, reverses and nakeds and Peterson was running around like a stupid little boy in a game of keep-away getting burned the rest of that game...at home. They attacked him that way specifically and in the fourth quarter he was the goat of the game.

So I'm not sold that big guys are always the answer and the fact is that a lot of bigger linebackers struggle to defend the perimeter and their hips don't turn well enough be that effective in coverage for very long. So there is some poison picking going on there. Supposedly the smaller, faster linebacker is better at doing the things that bigger ones can't.

My problem with the linebackers we have is that they didn't do the things that players of their type are supposed to do. They didn't tackle well, they struggled in coverage and they even took some lame angles. It's not the D-line's fault that they didn't wrap up. It's not the D-line's fault that tight ends were able to get open against them. No real big plays, either. How many interceptions did they have? How many fumbles did they force? Is that all the crappy D-line's fault too? Couple that with their tendency to get worn down late in the year, and it's not hard to see that not all is as super cool as it could be on their end.

I will say that the offense didn't do much to help keep the defense fresh this year, but other teams struggle on offense and their defenses don't go missing by the time December rolls around.

I don't necessarily agree with the idea that the root of our problems is on our backers not being 6'4" and 240 pounds, but I do think that the linebackers we have now left a lot to be desired last season.

I agree that our D-line leaves a lot to be desired, but linebackers aren't innocent victims of the offensive line getting through every play.

[-Slap-]

Ah, so Khan is going to cherry pick one bad quarter from Julian Peterson's latest Pro Bowl season and declare him a defensive liability. You can't make this stuff up.

I've already expressed my admiration for numerous LBs who aren't 6'4", 240 pounds. I literally begged Shanahan to go after Donnie Edwards. I also begged him to pursue Brian Urlacher and Adalius Thomas, among others.

The one thing those guys have in common isn't their size, its the ability to actually impact a football game by making big plays.

[SouthStndJunkie]

It always cracks me up when an opinion is formed on a player based on a few drills at the Senior Bowl practices.

Throw out the entire body of work that we call a players college career......because he looked bad on a few drills at the Senior Bowl practices.

I would be more concerned at the Senior Bowl at how well the player responds to coaching and the techniques being offered up by the staff to improve their game.

[Rascal]

DJ, Willis, and Wilson @ LB would be nice, but then we had better address the d-line in FA because I don't care if we have three Dick Butkus playing LB it won't matter if their d-line is as horrible as ours was last year.

Only concern is what are we going to do with Gold? A lot of people would just as well cut him, but if that happens I think our cap situation gets a lot worse and we may not be able to fix the d-line.

[Kaylore]

Ah, so Khan is going to cherry pick one bad quarter from Julian Peterson's latest Pro Bowl season and declare him a defensive liability. You can't make this stuff up.

No I didn't. In fact that LB unit that you've lauded all year was bemoaned thoughout the state of Washington because they also struggled to make tackles this last year and whiffed on a lot of angles. Sound familiar?


It always cracks me up when an opinion is formed on a player based on a few drills at the Senior Bowl practices.
You can at least kind of get a feel for what a guy can do. I agree you need to look at someone's body of work when you grade them, but do so with the knowledge they majority of the players they face won't even be invited to the draft.

And no one is saying that Partick Willis sucks in coverage. We're saying the it was difficult to assess how linebackers defend the pass game vis-a-vis tight ends and running backs because they weren't very well represented this year in Mobile. That doesn't mean they suck in coverage it just means it wasn't a good test in that particular event.

[NFLBRONCO]

Our LB's are vastly overrated always have been but, they get a pass by many because our DL is also bad. Our LB'ers are overpaid for their production all season. Alot of fans will see a better DL won't correct our LB play that much. Maybe Bates can get them more productive this year but, by how much.

[Kaylore]

Somewhere the "fastest" linebacking corps got turned into the "the best linebacking corps". Not sure when that happened, though.

[NFLBRONCO]

Somewhere the "fastest" linebacking corps got turned into the "the best linebacking corps". Not sure when that happened, though.


This is why we need upgrades all over on front 7. I wish we had more money to upgrade front 7 more this offseason.

[eddie mac]

Somewhere the "fastest" linebacking corps got turned into the "the best linebacking corps". Not sure when that happened, though.

You can blame the over-hyped press for that. Someway or somehow Shanahan/Bates have to get DJ back to WLB or we are never going to see his true potential. If that doesn't happen Denver will just let him go when his contract expires or trade him and he'll just be another in a long list of 1st round failures.

[SoCalBronco]

You can blame the over-hyped press for that. Someway or somehow Shanahan/Bates have to get DJ back to WLB or we are never going to see his true potential. If that doesn't happen Denver will just let him go when his contract expires or trade him and he'll just be another in a long list of 1st round failures.

They can't make a change even if they wanted to. Where is Ian going to go? SLB...he'll get assraped. S....thats a joke. Where is he going to go? They cant cut him, they cant trade him, we cant afford the hit.....we are stuck. I hope you are happy Shanny.

[eddie mac]

This is why we need upgrades all over on front 7. I wish we had more money to upgrade front 7 more this offseason.

Problem being the upgrades look like they'll only be slightly better via free-agency but they'll all be looking a ton of money because they're the best that's currently available. Shanahan has already said that we wont overpay for average players this offseason so it'll be more retreads onboard. This team has to focus on the draft and become a far better drafting organisation. 2006 was one of our best drafts for years. This team needs another 2 similar to that if it's to challenge in the next 2-5 years.

They also have to sort out this dicking around their doing when it comes to linebackers and it all started when they switched John Mobley. Since then they've wasted a 2nd rounder on Pierce. Re-signed Ian Gold and then moved him into a position where they had 1st round talent and are basically wasting DJ. Bates needs to sort that **** out now.

[eddie mac]

They can't make a change even if they wanted to. Where is Ian going to go? SLB...he'll get assraped. S....thats a joke. Where is he going to go? They cant cut him, they cant trade him, we cant afford the hit.....we are stuck. I hope you are happy Shanny.

SoCal, I'd trade him for what we could get and take the $6m hit. His cap is $4m plus this season anyway so it's only an extra $2m. This is the perfect year for Denver to clean house. Trade Plummer and Gold and you save about $12-$15m on next year's cap. I dont think this team is going to challenge this year anyway.

[Cito Pelon]

Looking at the D since 1995, I see there's only been five Denver draft picks that have made the Pro Bowl - Wilson, Deltha, Gold (ST's), Tory James, and Pryce. None of the recent D picks will make a Pro Bowl.

[Kaylore]

None of the recent D picks will make a Pro Bowl.
Oh boy. Another Cito prediction. I'll file this away with your "the Broncos are ruined for a minimum of five years" call you made.

[Cito Pelon]

Oh boy. Another Cito prediction. I'll file this away with your "the Broncos are ruined for a minimum of five years" call you made.

What's your problem? I don't attack you. If you want a war, I'll attack anything you say also. You call it, pal. If you want a war, no problem. Call it, or shut up.

[2KBack]

you called down the thunder, well you got it! Tell them I coming, I'm coming and hells coming with me!

[Kaylore]

What's your problem? I don't attack you. If you want a war, I'll attack anything you say also. You call it, pal. If you want a war, no problem. Call it, or shut up.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/Bios/hogan_sun.jpg
RAWWWWWWRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!

Hey Cito, you want to tell me exactly when it was that I attacked you personally? All I did was respond to your posts. You're the one that said those comments about Broncos being "ruined for five years minimum." I frankly think some of the your takes on the broncos are very negative and strongly disagree with a lot of them.

I've disagreed with a lot of posters on this board whom I respect - Taco John, Popps, -Slap-, SoCal, Wabbit, Alec - many of them and most of them don't get all pissy pants about it and ask for a war.

Just because I don't think the Bailey for Portis trade was bad, don't think the Broncos are ruined for five years, and believe that one of our recently drafted defenders could in fact make the pro-bowl, that doesn't mean that I hate you as a person.

If you don't like a take I have, I strongly encourage you to post as much and feel free to do so as often as possible. In fact if you want to disagree with everything I post because you "want a war" then you can do that too. I don't really care either way. I don't disagree with someone to disagree with them, though and when I do it doesn't mean I think they're stupid, ugly or a bad a person...even if they are.

[-Slap-]

No I didn't. In fact that LB unit that you've lauded all year was bemoaned thoughout the state of Washington because they also struggled to make tackles this last year and whiffed on a lot of angles. Sound familiar?

Julian Peterson was the Seahawks unanimous defensive MVP this year and the only other player who would have received votes was Tatupu.

Do you live in Washington? Why don't you come over to the nearest Seahawk board with me and argue differently. Tell everybody how badly those guys suck. Especially the Pro Bowler.

[Cito Pelon]

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/Bios/hogan_sun.jpg
RAWWWWWWRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!

Hey Cito, you want to tell me exactly when it was that I attacked you personally? All I did was respond to your posts. You're the one that said those comments about Broncos being "ruined for five years minimum." I frankly think some of the your takes on the broncos are very negative and strongly disagree with a lot of them.

I've disagreed with a lot of posters on this board whom I respect - Taco John, Popps, -Slap-, SoCal, Wabbit, Alec - many of them and most of them don't get all pissy pants about it and ask for a war.

Just because I don't think the Bailey for Portis trade was bad, don't think the Broncos are ruined for five years, and believe that one of our recently drafted defenders could in fact make the pro-bowl, that doesn't mean that I hate you as a person.

If you don't like a take I have, I strongly encourage you to post as much and feel free to do so as often as possible. In fact if you want to disagree with everything I post because you "want a war" then you can do that too. I don't really care either way. I don't disagree with someone to disagree with them, though and when I do it doesn't mean I think they're stupid, ugly or a bad a person...even if they are.

I didn't say you attacked me personally, but you attack my posts with just that little bit of sneer that I find very irritating. You misrepresent what I said to get a little sneer in, and I don't like it. I don't do that to you.

I never said "ruined for five years minimum". I said 3 yrs minimum to get back to where the team could really challenge for an AFC Championship. I said the team could challenge for a Div Title and maybe get a playoff spot, but would have to gain quite a few new starters to win playoff games.

That got you "all pissy pants" apparently and you figured you had to sneer at it like you're the greatest expert ever. I'm saying back off on that sneeriing tone you like to use or you'll get a taste of your own medicine, and we'll see how you like it.

[Cito Pelon]

you called down the thunder, well you got it! Tell them I coming, I'm coming and hells coming with me!

That was Larry Coyer said that, right? Just before the 2004 playoff game at Indy?

[Kaylore]

I didn't say you attacked me personally, but you attack my posts with just that little bit of sneer that I find very irritating.
Well I'm sorry to hear that.

I never said "ruined for five years minimum". I said 3 yrs minimum to get back to where the team could really challenge for an AFC Championship.

Actually that's not what you said.
Denver's FO has f'd this one up. A roster full of marginal players, and all signed for the next few years. That's great. It's gonna be a few years before Denver is a real contender again. Minimum of three years, probably five years or more.
So we're "probably screwed for five years." I'm not twisting anything. Teams like the Titans were 32 million over the cap two years ago and already have the shipped turned around with some of the largest room in the cap in the league right now.

So we're 8 million under and have just rebuilt our entire offense in one draft and you say we're screwed for probably five years. Yeah, I thought that take was lame and I said as much and I don't feel bad about it.

For what it's worth I treated Telluride the same way when he marched in with his Shanahan hate and doom and gloom posts two years ago. It's nothing personal Cito, I just hate takes that are overly negative and forecasting the absolute worst-case scenario someone could possibly come up with. Our team is better than that, and Shanahan is better than that.

[Kaylore]

Julian Peterson was the Seahawks unanimous defensive MVP this year and the only other player who would have received votes was Tatupu.

Do you live in Washington? Why don't you come over to the nearest Seahawk board with me and argue differently. Tell everybody how badly those guys suck. Especially the Pro Bowler.
Here you go. Prepare for some de'ja vu.

I think they definatly have the ability to be one of the best units on the league. They are smallish though and have a hard time shedding blockers at times. Which became a problem since our big DT who usualy occupies the blockers was injured for the majority of the year. Tatupu was missing tackles at the start of the year but seemed to get that remedied as the year went on.

I personally think that our linebacker with the most potential is Leroy Hill... who is the one that was not in the probowl this year. Our defensive staff needs to do a better job of figuring out how to use he and Julian Peterson more effectively.

All-in-all, I'd say our LBs struggled with tackling mostly at the beginning of the year, and often had difficulty because our D-line was absolutely ABYSSMAL. Lofa Tatupu is a stud, but small, and is much more effective when the O-linemen are primarily taken up by the D-line.

Leroy Hill had a bad year in terms of sacks, and many of us blame the D-coordinator for this - Hill is an outstanding blitzer, as is Peterson, and there was no reason why only Peterson should have been blitzing often enough to collect a respectable number of sacks...

All of that said, Peterson is pretty good in coverage, and I've seen Tatupu running 20 yards downfield with slot receivers - so I'm not sure the contention that our LBs struggle in coverage is accurate. Many of the issues our linebackers and defensive backs seemed to have can be traced back to a lack of pressure generated by the front four. JP and Lofa are obviously already Pro Bowlers, but I would not be surprised one day to see all three of them in the Pro Bowl - Leroy Hill might be one of the top 5 blitzing OLBs that isn't on steroids, evidenced by his 8 sacks generated in part-time duty last year. If our D play calling starts to take advantage of his ability to generate pressure, I think he'd get a lot more recognition.

Gee. Sound familiar, Slappy? These guys seem to know what they're talking about too.

[Kaylore]

Here's more:

Coverage is a non-issue. Last year a little, this year the LBs covered but the rest of the team couldn't. The running game - they tackle well but they are tiny and none of them are good at slipping blocks, so they try to run around blockers (or take them head on and get eliminated) so it messes up their angles and makes it look like they are worse tacklers than they are. I do think our LB squad, in the right system, is as good as any in the league. But if Tubbs is out, OGs can get to the second level and we're done for.

As I saw this year, and last year too, for that matter, our linebackers were some of the finest in the business. Our weakness, especially this last year was the line and the defensive backs. Our linebackers are very solid - two of them were Pro Bowlers this year. They do miss a few tackles now and then, but they're not really the issue there. And in comparison to the rest of the league, I wouldn't rank them anywhere close to the highest number of missed tackles.

We have a good group, but not the best in the league.

And, I hate to say it, but I'm not sure Tat should have been in the Pro Bowl this year. For the first half of the season, he was missing tackles, and was out of position quite a bit. He's defiantly a great LB, but wasn't one of the best MLB's in the NFL.

Peterson is great, Pro Bowl caliber in 95% of his job, but is a liability at when he's run right at.

As mentioned above, Hill is a great blitzer - a role that he couldn't utilize as much this year.

I think we have a good group at LB, and it's the strength of our D, but it's not the top corps in the NFL, at least not last year...

But then again, I thought that drafting two under-sized, unappreciated LB's in the first four rounds was a horrible call, so mebeing plain wrong is not outside of the realm of possibility.

To follow-up on the comments already made, of the 3, I think Tatupu is the best at coverage, with JP coming in second. Leroy Hill was covering the TE in most coverages I was able to pick-up, though I thought Julian was going to get that role most of the time. JP wanted to cover Gonzalez in the KC game due to him shutting Gonzalez down a couple years earlier (according to some published reports at the time). He didn't seem to have the same success this last go around.

I really do like Hill. He had an issue with his shoulder or stingers, might be something to keep an eye on.

As for the backups, if D.D. Lewis (funny how he has the old Cowboy linebacker name) could stay healthy, he is of starter quality. I also like Bentley. He seems to do a good job in coverage.

Tackling was an issue with the whole defense, probably due to people trying to do too much instead of just playing their gaps. We started getting gashed as others pointed out around the time Tubbs was having problems, with the Vikings game being the beginning in my mind.

So there ya go. Not all as hot as we think and I think a lot of what I thought about them is right. They are definitely talented, but the majority of what they said reads like something you can find here. The "tiny linebacker" comments seems like something you would write about our guys, -Slap-.

[fontaine]

I don't expect our LBers to shed blocks from 300+ lb guards.

When the nickel front four consists of Ekuban at DT, Dumervil/Lang outside then you better pray that your attacking DL get to the backfield and pressure the QB.

We didn't and our 'Backers paid for it because Guards/FB/TEs etc had a field day blocking them out. Until we fix the DL that's not going to go away.

[-Slap-]

I don't know what you think you proved, Kaylore. Maybe its that your lack of reading comprehension extends to the posters on other boards and not just the people here.

Somehow fans bitching about a lack of pressure by the front four is new? I've been trying to explain to you and 90% of this board that the Broncos defensive line is not the worst ever assembled. The Seahawks led the NFL in sacks in 2005, but one year later their fans are complaining because the front four isn't All-Universe.

What Julian Peterson complaints should I find most instructive? That he's a great blitzer who wasn't turned loose enough? Is that Peterson's fault. Better yet, is it any way applicable to the non-blitzing safetybackers we've got running around out there?

That he was an All Pro, except when you run straight at him? Let me tell you something, that's what has been said about almost every great linebacker who ever played in the NFL. Great linebackers pursue so well the only way to ensure you get a hat on them to run right at them.

[fontaine]

I don't know what you think you proved, Kaylore. Maybe its that your lack of reading comprehension extends to the posters on other boards and not just the people here.

Somehow fans b****ing about a lack of pressure by the front four is new? I've been trying to explain to you and 90% of this board that the Broncos defensive line is not the worst ever assembled. The Seahawks led the NFL in sacks in 2005, but one year later their fans are complaining because the front four isn't All-Universe.

What Julian Peterson complaints should I find most instructive? That he's a great blitzer who wasn't turned loose enough? Is that Peterson's fault. Better yet, is it any way applicable to the non-blitzing safetybackers we've got running around out there?

That he was an All Pro, except when you run straight at him? Let me tell you something, that's what has been said about almost every great linebacker who ever played in the NFL. Great linebackers pursue so well the only way to ensure you get a hat on them to run right at them.

Then entire "model" of our defense is f***ed.

When Coyer was promoted to DC the priority was to upgrade to a Tampa Bay type Cover 2 with speedy/coverage LBers with a front four that could get after the QB without blizing.

Instead of Simeon Rice/Warren Sapp/Booger the FO saddled the D with busted old players past their prime or complete misfits from the 2nd day of the draft. Let's not forget the Browncos.

The FO pretty much did everything under the sun EXCEPT draft DL high.

And now they bring in Bates who want tanks at DT with press coverage. I wonder if they still have Chester McGhloughton's number.

The more things change the more they get screwed up.

[Raider Bill]

That said, Rod Coleman is basically the closest thing the NFL has seen to John Randle in the last 15 years

Funny you say that. Coleman was originally drafted as a MLB. One day in practice, Raiders coaches needed a player to simulate John Randle, Coleman thrust himself into filling in as the practice version of Randle and looked so good doing it that they moved him to DT.

[Mediator12]

It always cracks me up when an opinion is formed on a player based on a few drills at the Senior Bowl practices.

Throw out the entire body of work that we call a players college career......because he looked bad on a few drills at the Senior Bowl practices.

I would be more concerned at the Senior Bowl at how well the player responds to coaching and the techniques being offered up by the staff to improve their game.

Opinions are not based solely on that one week and game alone. What you can do is confirm or change an already existing opinion with best on best competition. Coming into the week, Willis had huge question marks concerning his coverage abilities because he was not asked to do that at Ole Miss. It was not a part of their scheme and it is a huge difference between the NFL and College scheme's. A lot of scout's see him as a two down LB in the NFL until he becomes a better player in coverage. Two down MLB's are not worth high draft picks even if you run the 3-4.

Willis is simply a great MLB who has not had the reps in coverage in that scheme and needs to develop them to be the player he can be at the next level. He did not really have best on best competition for most of that week though, as the TE's and RB's were not legitimate receiving threats in practice outside Booker. And when he was against him, he got beat.

I think Willis has the character, motivation, and passion to become a complete MLB and he may be the best LB in this draft when it is all said and done. I see what Slap sees in his on field performance, he is a maniac in run support and plays the screens exceptionally well to boot. He just struggles with the flat routes, the dumpoffs, and crossing routes. He lacks awareness in coverage, that same awareness that is so good in the running game. He has major upside in that area of his game IMHO.

What bothers me is that people read something here and assume that is all they have done to evaluate a player. Player evals are a huge multifaceted process and it cracks me up that you would assume that I would be that naive and simple. If anything, I am an long term process evaluator rather than a knee jerk first impression, last impression type.

[SouthStndJunkie]

What bothers me is that people read something here and assume that is all they have done to evaluate a player. Player evals are a huge multifaceted process and it cracks me up that you would assume that I would be that naive and simple. If anything, I am an long term process evaluator rather than a knee jerk first impression, last impression type.

I feel so enlightened now.

Don't be so touchy. I was simply making the point that I prefer to look at the entire body of work called a players career. Nobody said you were naive and simple. Besides, I don't remember singling you out when I made the comment. My comment was more or less talking about a lot of draft experts that focus too much on things like Senior Bowl practices or 40 yard dashes instead of focusing on if a prospect can flat out ball.

[Kaylore]

I really don't know what the answer is. I don't understand how Al Wilson and others started sucking at tackling this season. I know his thumb was hurt, but Champ and Lynch don't suck at tackling and Wilson was a great tackler in '03 and '04. Our line wasn't great but it wasn't that bad either. Our interior is where we struggled a lot.

I do know that every time we asked Coyer to improve on a certain area of our defense he delivered. My thoughts are that Shanahan just doesn't believe in spending a lot of money on defensive linemen. Someone on this board said that our D-line has declined since we let Keith Traylor go (Third round draft pick from Wade Phillips, by the way) and I totally agree.

In 2003 we were ranked 4th in total defense
In 2004 we were ranked 4th again
In 2005 we were ranked 15th
And in 2006 we were ranked 14th

Somewhere in there we went from great to average.

I don't think we're screwed or are looking at becoming some kind of bottom feeders on defense, I just think something needs addressing. I think it's probably size, but also good fundamentals and better talent up front.

[BroncoInferno]

In 2003 we were ranked 4th in total defense
In 2004 we were ranked 4th again
In 2005 we were ranked 15th
And in 2006 we were ranked 14th

Somewhere in there we went from great to average.

Those yardage stats are misleading as the '05 D was better than either the '03 and '04 unit, and actually allowed the fewest points of any team in the Shanny era and was top 5 in the league in that category.

[azbroncfan]

What Julian Peterson complaints should I find most instructive? That he's a great blitzer who wasn't turned loose enough? Is that Peterson's fault. Better yet, is it any way applicable to the non-blitzing safetybackers we've got running around out there?



Think of him in a 3-4 system playing OLB. He would be a stud and I think that is what his size and speed is best for him. In Seattle they run a Cover 2 which usually means not alot of blitzing but they would use him as a DE in the nickle D. I didn't page through the whole thread but did someone say he sucks?

[Cito Pelon]

Bump. WTH, why not?

[-Slap-]

Patrick Willis just made a beautiful play in zone coverage down in the red zone right now on third down. The guy is quick as a mongoose.

[(Jae)]

sounds good.............

[Mediator12]

Patrick Willis just made a beautiful play in zone coverage down in the red zone right now on third down. The guy is quick as a mongoose.

Hey, you were 100% right about Willis. The guy is rookie of the year for me as AD has been great but inconsistent too.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

Hey, you were 100% right about Willis. The guy is rookie of the year for me as AD has been great but inconsistent too.

Yeah, and we had no chance of getting him. I think the broncos should draft Dorsey, McFadden, or Chris Long. I said it here first...c'mon.

[azbroncfan]

Hey, you were 100% right about Willis. The guy is rookie of the year for me as AD has been great but inconsistent too.

He was the first LB off the board so it's not hard to say he would be good though. For as inconsistent as AP has been he has a chance to lead the league in rushing which is great as a rookie.

[-Slap-]

He was the first LB off the board so it's not hard to say he would be good though. For as inconsistent as AP has been he has a chance to lead the league in rushing which is great as a rookie.

Discussion about Willis began when he was still ranked behind Posluzsny and Timmons.

[Elway777]

Slap your right Willis would of been worth trading our first and second picks for then drafting Charle Johnson or Crowder and Thomas in the 3 round.

[Broncoman13]

Not to pile on... Julian Peterson, Patrick Willis, and Lofa Tatupu... NFC Pro-Bowlers.

Like Med said, most of us have knee jerk reactions when "scouting" players and calling there names on the board here. Honest truth, I had seen Patrick Willis play once before the ESPN (the mag) article came out with the story about his father and brother. The story is what made me focus on him and become a fan.

Guys like Vince Young, Cedric Benson, Quincy Morgan, Adrian Peterson, Reggie McNeal, and a long list of other Texas HSers... I had watched and followed closely since their HS days and feel confident I could tell you about their game. Outside of Texas though, I have a very limited sample.

I guess the biggest/greatest point you can make is that sometimes you can see a guy and see quality or high character. For Patrick Willis, I think people were able to see what he had overcome. Slap obviously saw some serious on-field talent, but without the "life lesson stories", I don't think he would have called him the next great MLB. His character plays a very large part in all of this. Med can speak to this better than I, but I'd imagine as a scout you would love to have a kid that has showed that he can overcome something as difficult as that. I don't mean that you want kids to lose siblings or parents, I mean that you want to see something that shows the kid can deal with the daily rigors of the NFL.

[azbroncfan]

Discussion about Willis began when he was still ranked behind Posluzsny and Timmons.

Out on a limb and said a top 10 pick would be good. I realized you talked about him before his senior season but it wasn 't that much of a stretch.

[elsid13]

Not to pile on... Julian Peterson, Patrick Willis, and Lofa Tatupu... NFC Pro-Bowlers.

Like Med said, most of us have knee jerk reactions when "scouting" players and calling there names on the board here. Honest truth, I had seen Patrick Willis play once before the ESPN (the mag) article came out with the story about his father and brother. The story is what made me focus on him and become a fan.

Guys like Vince Young, Cedric Benson, Quincy Morgan, Adrian Peterson, Reggie McNeal, and a long list of other Texas HSers... I had watched and followed closely since their HS days and feel confident I could tell you about their game. Outside of Texas though, I have a very limited sample.

I guess the biggest/greatest point you can make is that sometimes you can see a guy and see quality or high character. For Patrick Willis, I think people were able to see what he had overcome. Slap obviously saw some serious on-field talent, but without the "life lesson stories", I don't think he would have called him the next great MLB. His character plays a very large part in all of this. Med can speak to this better than I, but I'd imagine as a scout you would love to have a kid that has showed that he can overcome something as difficult as that. I don't mean that you want kids to lose siblings or parents, I mean that you want to see something that shows the kid can deal with the daily rigors of the NFL.


That why I am pushing Michael Oher out of Ole Miss if he coming out. I have only seen him play a handful of times, but the kid can be very good. Think Pace.

[socalorado]

That why I am pushing Michael Oher out of Ole Miss if he coming out. I have only seen him play a handful of times, but the kid can be very good. Think Pace.

You want the "next" Patrick Willis??!!?!?!?

Beau Bell, UNLV
Height: 6-3. Weight: 245.
2007 Mountain West Conference DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR:

NFL scouts will flock to Sam Boyd Stadium on Saturday primarily to watch Hawaii quarterback Colt Brennan -- but that also means more eyes will be on UNLV linebacker Beau Bell.

If Bell builds on his already strong play in the 6:30 p.m. game, he could make quite an impression on potential future employers.

As of Wednesday, 14 scouts had requested credentials for Saturday's game. Those scouts represent nine NFL clubs and one Canadian Football League team. It is the second-highest number of scouts for a UNLV game (17 attended the 2003 game against Hawaii).

"It probably would help me, but I'm just really focused on helping the team," Bell said. "That's the main thing. We're trying to go out there and get a win. You can't worry about yourself in football. You've got to worry about the people around you."

Regardless, there is little doubt Bell (6 feet 3 inches, 245 pounds) could become an early draft pick. NFL.com analyst Gil Brandt has projected Bell as a high second-round selection, listing him as his top senior inside linebacker.

Bell has justified such expectations with a strong start.

He made nine tackles and forced two fumbles in UNLV's 23-16 win at Utah State. Then in Saturday's 20-13 loss to Wisconsin, Bell led UNLV with 10 tackles, one time leaping over tailback P.J. Hill to sack Tyler Donovan.

UNLV gives a Hard Hat Award each game to the "blue-collar" player who stands out, and Bell won the honor in both games.

"He's really playing well," coach Mike Sanford said. "The key thing is that Beau keeps playing like that."

To do so, linebackers coach Dennis Therrell said, Bell needs to "be consistent. He's got all the physical talent."

That has never been questioned. Bell made 76 tackles, including nine for loss and four sacks, through seven games last season before a high ankle sprain ended his season.

He can only hope to continue his success against the highly touted Brennan, whom most scouts will be focused on.

Brennan, with 10 touchdown passes in Hawaii's first two games, could be the first quarterback taken in next year's draft.

As for Bell's prospects, Therrell cautioned about reading too much into this game, noting the linebacker will be picked over by NFL scouts many times before April.

"I think any time you walk on a football field, you've got to be prepared to make an impression," Therrell said. "Scouts are going to watch every game, and they're going to analyze every play.

"When they come to watch, they're not coming to find out if you can play. They're coming to find out why you can't play in the NFL."

[elsid13]

You want the "next" Patrick Willis??!!?!?!?

Beau Bell, UNLV
Height: 6-3. Weight: 245.
2007 Mountain West Conference DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR:

NFL scouts will flock to Sam Boyd Stadium on Saturday primarily to watch Hawaii quarterback Colt Brennan -- but that also means more eyes will be on UNLV linebacker Beau Bell.

If Bell builds on his already strong play in the 6:30 p.m. game, he could make quite an impression on potential future employers.

As of Wednesday, 14 scouts had requested credentials for Saturday's game. Those scouts represent nine NFL clubs and one Canadian Football League team. It is the second-highest number of scouts for a UNLV game (17 attended the 2003 game against Hawaii).

"It probably would help me, but I'm just really focused on helping the team," Bell said. "That's the main thing. We're trying to go out there and get a win. You can't worry about yourself in football. You've got to worry about the people around you."

Regardless, there is little doubt Bell (6 feet 3 inches, 245 pounds) could become an early draft pick. NFL.com analyst Gil Brandt has projected Bell as a high second-round selection, listing him as his top senior inside linebacker.

Bell has justified such expectations with a strong start.

He made nine tackles and forced two fumbles in UNLV's 23-16 win at Utah State. Then in Saturday's 20-13 loss to Wisconsin, Bell led UNLV with 10 tackles, one time leaping over tailback P.J. Hill to sack Tyler Donovan.

UNLV gives a Hard Hat Award each game to the "blue-collar" player who stands out, and Bell won the honor in both games.

"He's really playing well," coach Mike Sanford said. "The key thing is that Beau keeps playing like that."

To do so, linebackers coach Dennis Therrell said, Bell needs to "be consistent. He's got all the physical talent."

That has never been questioned. Bell made 76 tackles, including nine for loss and four sacks, through seven games last season before a high ankle sprain ended his season.

He can only hope to continue his success against the highly touted Brennan, whom most scouts will be focused on.

Brennan, with 10 touchdown passes in Hawaii's first two games, could be the first quarterback taken in next year's draft.

As for Bell's prospects, Therrell cautioned about reading too much into this game, noting the linebacker will be picked over by NFL scouts many times before April.

"I think any time you walk on a football field, you've got to be prepared to make an impression," Therrell said. "Scouts are going to watch every game, and they're going to analyze every play.

"When they come to watch, they're not coming to find out if you can play. They're coming to find out why you can't play in the NFL."

Oher - LT and worth high first round pick, Bell is up and coming LB, but he's not in Willis league. I actually prefer Shawn Crable out of Michigan

[socalorado]

Oher - LT and worth high first round pick, Bell is up and coming LB, but he's not in Willis league. I actually prefer Shawn Crable out of Michigan

Crable over Bell? Ah no.
Crable is huge for his position though. Just huge.
Hes a 3-4 rounder and more of a hybrid OLB/DE kinda guy.
I dont think he fits in DEN scheme, but i see your logic to liking
him.
Crable's a physical specimen.
But so is BELL. He will be one of the "steals" of the draft. Book it.

[alkemical]

I'd take the kid from PSU

[socalorado]

Oher - LT and worth high first round pick, Bell is up and coming LB, but he's not in Willis league. I actually prefer Shawn Crable out of Michigan

After thinking about your last post, i like that there are posters here thinking about guys like Crable. I am not a fan, but hes one of those guys that could be a steal as well!!!

Both Bell and Crable remind me of those guys on NFL teams that are "role-players" or "differance-makers". The guys that the commentators refer to when you see aplay being made and think,
"yeah, i wish DEN drafted THAT Guy!"

[elsid13]

Crable over Bell? Ah no.
Crable is huge for his position though. Just huge.
Hes a 3-4 rounder and more of a hybrid OLB/DE kinda guy.
I dont think he fits in DEN scheme, but i see your logic to liking
him.
Crable's a physical specimen.
But so is BELL. He will be one of the "steals" of the draft. Book it.

I believe that Crable has greater physical potential, and that what holding him back is the experience. He is solid 2 rounder and his ability to stand up at the point of attack and his speed make him extremely attractive.