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alkemical
01-19-2007, 05:04 PM
When Does SETI Throw in the Towel? http://space.com/searchforlife/seti_shostak_surrender_070118.html


“At what point would you abandon the search?”


That’s a question I get relatively frequently from folks who think that SETI may be a quixotic quest, as futile as searching for the Seven Cities of Gold. After all, modern efforts to find signals from extraterrestrial transmitters are now in their fifth decade. Could it be that those of us who still hope to tune in other worlds may be missing some writing on the wall? Some dead-obvious, chiseled text with a simple, if disappointing message: “There are no aliens”?


The question seems fair, since SETI’s obvious analogs–the historical voyages of discovery made in the centuries following the Renaissance–were completed in considerably less time than SETI has been beating the cosmic bushes. Columbus spent five weeks finding North America (and he wasn’t even looking). Captain Cook, a true paragon of explorers, and a man who mapped places that Europeans didn’t even know were places, never mounted an expedition that lasted more than three years.


But those analogs are false. The South Pacific, for all its watery wastes, is comprehensible in size. Even Cook’s unimpressive Whitby collier, powered by sailcloth, could cross the Pacific in a matter of months, come about, and cross again in a different direction. His quarry, the islands peppering the ocean like coins scattered onto a living room carpet, signaled their presence by clots of clouds even when the islands themselves were below the horizon.


The SETI wilderness is incomparably larger, obviously, and its quarry is cryptic. Even if there are ten thousand transmitting societies nestled in the arms of the Milky Way, we might need to search millions of star systems before we find one. The actual number of star systems that radio SETI experiments have carefully examined is fewer than a thousand.


It’s a simple truth, although one not universally acknowledged, that SETI is still in its early stages. Consequently, many of its practitioners will tell you that this is a multigenerational experiment, akin to building cathedrals in medieval Europe. In other words, a lot of SETI scientists will answer the question that began this article by saying “not in my lifetime, nor in that of my children or grandchildren.”


Fighting words, but could they be hyperbolic? To begin with, SETI experiments will have examined millions of star systems within a generation. And within two, we could carefully check every star in the Galaxy. The SETI ship has a lot of ocean to cover, but thanks to new technologies, it’s picking up speed. So clearly, if we haven’t found something by mid-century or so, it will be hard to argue that it’s still “early stages.”


And frankly, it’s conceivable that SETI’s basic assumptions might be proven wrong. Imagine that the new space-based telescopes (COROT and Kepler) currently being deployed to hunt for Earth-size planets around other stars come up empty. That would be a premium-grade bummer. But even if (as widely expected) they do discover rocky worlds, it’s possible that a decade or so down the line, their telescopic successors–atmosphere-sniffing instruments such as the Terrestrial Planet Finder–might fail to find any extrasolar worlds on which life has taken hold.


Spacecraft of the future might return to us the news that neither Mars, Europa, nor any of the other orbs of the solar system with liquid water have ever produced a microbe. If these are headlines of the future–if the local cosmic neighborhood turns out to be as sterile as prime-time television–then that would certainly put me on the defensive.


But the fact is that none of this incites me to break out the worry beads. Not yet. The various factors in the well-known Drake Equation, which is often used to estimate the chances of SETI success, have–at least until now–become more encouraging with time, not less. The more we learn about the universe, the more it seems disposed to house worlds with life. It didn’t have to be that way.


Somewhat more disquieting is the possibility that our approach is wrong. SETI today is overwhelmingly a search for narrow-band electromagnetic transmissions, or in fewer syllables, a hunt for beamed radio or light. We search with straightforward telescopic techniques, but it’s possible that alien broadcasts could be encoded in ways that we’re not set up to find. I’m not talking about how they construct their messages–or whether they’re broadcasting in Standard American English or a lilting Klingon dialect–but the technical scheme they use. For instance, Walt Simmons at the University of Hawaii has suggested that garrulous aliens might wield two widely separated transmitters and use quantum mechanical effects to encode their messages. The advantage would be that if we opened this type of alien mail, it would be impossible to tell from which direction it came, thereby protecting the anonymity of the sender. This sort of approach–still somewhat beyond our technical abilities–might make our present receiving schemes seem naïve.


In addition, there’s always the chance that the discovery of new physics will reveal some communication mode that’s either faster than light and radio, or requires less energy to use. This doesn’t seem likely, but science is all about surprises.


Indeed, my personal feeling is that if SETI hasn’t turned up something by the second half of this century, we should reconsider our search strategy, rather than assume that we’ve failed because there is nothing–or no one–to find. Would I ever conclude that we’ve searched enough? Would I ever truly give up on SETI’s bedrock premise, and tell myself that the extraterrestrials simply aren’t out there? Not likely. That would be to assume that we’ve learned all there is to know about our universe, a stance that is contrary to the spirit of explorers and scientists alike. We might yearn, or even need to believe that we are special, but to conclude that Homo sapiens is the best the cosmos has to offer is egregious self-adulation.

sirhcyennek81
01-19-2007, 05:20 PM
I think earth is the house on the block that has the screaming kids, loud music and police at their door almost every weekend. You wonder why otherworld societies dont want us to know about them?


:Broncos:

watermock
01-19-2007, 05:24 PM
Federal funding ended decades ago.

A UFO could land in that huge dish then dash off in a comedy manever and skeptics would still think we should look at radio waves.

Old Dude
01-19-2007, 05:27 PM
I'd keep it going, just for the heck of it. Technology is improving at a remarkable rate, so future searches should be faster & cheaper.

Meanwhile, somewhere down the road, we should be able to use a variety of new technologies to find planets in other star systems that show the most promising signs (water, ozone, etc.)

watermock
01-19-2007, 05:32 PM
UFO's are all around us. They aren't in the mood to talk...take DNA samples yes, get cow balls, yes...talk...dunno. Not to me.

See how scientific I am...Cow Balls.

Bronco Bob
01-19-2007, 06:23 PM
Here would be the irony. The folks running SETI do call it a day and
quit this year.
And a civilization only 5 light years away discovered radio 4 years ago.

TheDave
01-19-2007, 06:25 PM
I've always thought the entire premise behind SETI was rediculous... Then again i find anything that has to do with extra-terrestrial life ridiculous, but thats just me.

Jetmeck
01-19-2007, 07:45 PM
Gotta have faith and longevity, just ask a Chef fan.

Rock Chalk
01-19-2007, 09:30 PM
The odds of finding ET via radio signals are long, but provided they continue to get their funding privately, why not let them?

Considering radio moves only at the speed of light, that civilization only has x number of years where they use radio before either advancing to a better communication method or going extinct its like trying to catch a train in the middle of nowhere, but worse, you're not even sure where the traintracks are located much less what time the train is going to show up.

It is doubtful that any intelligent (radio technology possessing) life exists within 50 light years of us and if that is the case then they do not know we are even here. Least, they have not yet heard us.

As for Dave, the idea of extra terrestrial life is far from ridiculous. Searching for it may, at the present time, be an excersize in futility and to that I can possibly see your point, but I can gaurantee you that life in some form or another exists beyond this simple little rock we call Earth. Statistically it would be ridiculous if it DIDNT. Of course, I am not capable of proving such, but within mine and your lifetime, we will know if there is life of some sort in the local galactic neighborhood (within 300 light years).

Im betting on primitive life, probably no more complex than tubeworms and likely no more complex than bacteria or virii. It is entirely possible that we have already discovered life on Mars and killed it (albeit, accidentally). At the time Viking landed and ran its tests to determine if there were microbes alive in teh soil, the readings produced an anomoly that until recently (within the past month) had yet to be logically explained. See, we ran the tests using water thinking at the time that water was a necessity for life when in fact we ahve learned since the 1970s when Viking was underway, that water is NOT a necessity for life, that organics have been since found on this very planet using hydrogen peroxide as their soluble. Such a life form would die when introduced to water and perhaps give an anomolous signal such as the one Viking received. (read more: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/298795_mars08.html?source=mypi)

Bunch of pricks we are, killing newly discovered life wherever we go.

watermock
01-19-2007, 09:32 PM
I told the board there was water on Mars years ago.

Bronco_Beerslug
01-19-2007, 09:49 PM
As for Dave, the idea of extra terrestrial life is far from ridiculous. .Wow! Something the Houston hoser
and I agree on!

alkemical
01-19-2007, 11:25 PM
Yeah mock, but Ray Bradbury stated we ARE Martians!

rubaiyat
01-20-2007, 12:58 AM
Here would be the irony. The folks running SETI do call it a day and
quit this year.
And a civilization only 5 light years away discovered radio 4 years ago.

Actually it would be unlikely radio waves would be the carrier.

The square law of EM would require insanely huge power expenditure to have detectable signals over interstellar distances.

We're losing out outbound satellites for similar reasons and they aren't even that far out in terms of space.

A more likely candidate is pointing emitters specifically at likely star systems and flashing nanosecond pulses (as nothing in nature emits energy like that) and so would be cheap (as you could make an insanely powerful pulse butthat would only last a nanosecond so overall not taking too much energy).

You just hope someone is there to pick up.

EDIT - Though the likely answer, is if there WAS life, it's long since dead as the major star formation of our galaxy was billions of years ago...ie any civilizations that arose are either godlike super beings or long since dead.

atomicbloke
01-20-2007, 01:46 AM
As for Dave, the idea of extra terrestrial life is far from ridiculous.

Statistically it would be ridiculous if it DIDNT.

I actually once went to an astrobiology conference where someone presented a paper like that.

But I don't think your average joe would appreciate all that statistics.

TheDave
01-20-2007, 04:37 PM
As for Dave, the idea of extra terrestrial life is far from ridiculous. Searching for it may, at the present time, be an excersize in futility and to that I can possibly see your point, but I can gaurantee you that life in some form or another exists beyond this simple little rock we call Earth. Statistically it would be ridiculous if it DIDNT. Of course, I am not capable of proving such, but within mine and your lifetime, we will know if there is life of some sort in the local galactic neighborhood (within 300 light years).

Im betting on primitive life, probably no more complex than tubeworms and likely no more complex than bacteria or virii. It is entirely possible that we have already discovered life on Mars and killed it (albeit, accidentally). At the time Viking landed and ran its tests to determine if there were microbes alive in teh soil, the readings produced an anomoly that until recently (within the past month) had yet to be logically explained. See, we ran the tests using water thinking at the time that water was a necessity for life when in fact we ahve learned since the 1970s when Viking was underway, that water is NOT a necessity for life, that organics have been since found on this very planet using hydrogen peroxide as their soluble. Such a life form would die when introduced to water and perhaps give an anomolous signal such as the one Viking received. (read more: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/298795_mars08.html?source=mypi)

Bunch of pricks we are, killing newly discovered life wherever we go.

And that's the problem... The life forms we are searching for are probably somewhere between microscopic single celled bacteria possibly up to and as complex as a tubeworm. Just my opinion but searching the universe for a an intergalactic tubeworm is kind of rediculous... but hey, that's just me.

Garcia Bronco
01-20-2007, 10:34 PM
fixed Carl Peterson got a vote.

BOOOOOOOOOO

BroncoBuff
01-20-2007, 10:35 PM
What about the "Phoenix Lights"?

Or the southern Illinois UFO seen by 6 cops in different counties?


Mankind's manner of scientific thinking is far too narrow to understand the kinds of life that could travel to our planet (as opposed to the SETI search) ... if a civilization is advanced enough to solve the unsolveable problems associated with interstellar travel, then they are advanced enough to easily avoid detection.

One problem with SETI is, anything we detect will be millenia old ... even if we detect some kind of radio wave, those who sent it are long dead. And whatever we did detect would be wholly indecipherable - our narrow understanding and appreciation is of the electromagnetic spectrum as we know it only.
<!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->

Garcia Bronco
01-20-2007, 11:07 PM
fixed Carl Peterson got a vote.

BOOOOOOOOOO

LOL...wrong thread

Bronco Bob
01-21-2007, 02:49 AM
What about the "Phoenix Lights"?

Or the southern Illinois UFO seen by 6 cops in different counties?

Odd lights in the sky doesn't mean these lights were caused by intelligent beings.




Mankind's manner of scientific thinking is far too narrow to understand the kinds of life that could travel to our planet (as opposed to the SETI search) ... if a civilization is advanced enough to solve the unsolveable problems associated with interstellar travel, then they are advanced enough to easily avoid detection.

One problem with SETI is, anything we detect will be millenia old ... even if we detect some kind of radio wave, those who sent it are long dead. And whatever we did detect would be wholly indecipherable - our narrow understanding and appreciation is of the electromagnetic spectrum as we know it only.
<!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->

Why would it need to be thousands of years old? If we discovered
a signal from a star system 20 light years away, it would mean the
signals were sent 20 years ago, not thousands of years ago.

maven
01-21-2007, 03:54 AM
Private funding fuels the project. Keep it going...

Florida_Bronco
01-21-2007, 04:23 AM
The odds of finding ET via radio signals are long, but provided they continue to get their funding privately, why not let them?

Considering radio moves only at the speed of light, that civilization only has x number of years where they use radio before either advancing to a better communication method or going extinct its like trying to catch a train in the middle of nowhere, but worse, you're not even sure where the traintracks are located much less what time the train is going to show up.

It is doubtful that any intelligent (radio technology possessing) life exists within 50 light years of us and if that is the case then they do not know we are even here. Least, they have not yet heard us.

As for Dave, the idea of extra terrestrial life is far from ridiculous. Searching for it may, at the present time, be an excersize in futility and to that I can possibly see your point, but I can gaurantee you that life in some form or another exists beyond this simple little rock we call Earth. Statistically it would be ridiculous if it DIDNT. Of course, I am not capable of proving such, but within mine and your lifetime, we will know if there is life of some sort in the local galactic neighborhood (within 300 light years).

Im betting on primitive life, probably no more complex than tubeworms and likely no more complex than bacteria or virii. It is entirely possible that we have already discovered life on Mars and killed it (albeit, accidentally). At the time Viking landed and ran its tests to determine if there were microbes alive in teh soil, the readings produced an anomoly that until recently (within the past month) had yet to be logically explained. See, we ran the tests using water thinking at the time that water was a necessity for life when in fact we ahve learned since the 1970s when Viking was underway, that water is NOT a necessity for life, that organics have been since found on this very planet using hydrogen peroxide as their soluble. Such a life form would die when introduced to water and perhaps give an anomolous signal such as the one Viking received. (read more: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/298795_mars08.html?source=mypi)

Bunch of pricks we are, killing newly discovered life wherever we go.

I'd have to agree with this. It's hard to think that we are the only life forms in the entire universe. Hell, for all we know there could be another race of humans out there.

Kaylore
01-21-2007, 04:28 AM
Somewhat more disquieting is the possibility that our approach is wrong. SETI today is overwhelmingly a search for narrow-band electromagnetic transmissions, or in fewer syllables, a hunt for beamed radio or light. We search with straightforward telescopic techniques, but it’s possible that alien broadcasts could be encoded in ways that we’re not set up to find.
This has always been my gripe. How do we know that life is even the same makeup as us and therefore developed the same means to communicate as we did? They might not even work and communicate in the same ways we do. It would be like going into some field in Africa and shouting "We're here!" Are ants going to care if you do that? Will they even know?

What if there is life but it is primitive? Or what if it's so advanced they don't even use the same means we do to communicate? It's the same reason that Independence Day had such a stupid conclusion. We give them a "virus" to save the world. Good thing even Aliens use Windows. :oyvey:

Bronco Bob
01-21-2007, 04:38 AM
This has always been my gripe. How do we know that life is even the same makeup as us and therefore developed the same means to communicate as we did? They might not even work and communicate in the same ways we do. It would be like going into some field in Africa and shouting "We're here!" Are ants going to care if you do that? Will they even know?




Well, kind of the point of SETI is that if a culture on another world
WERE using radio to communicate, maybe we could hear them.
The idea being only a sophisticated culture that had electricity
would have figured out how to use radio. That's what the I
in SETI stands for, intelligence. Obviously if they aren't using
radio to communicate, we could not hear them. But SETI is
looking for anyone who have reached the level of intelligence
to use radio. It may take centuries to find someone else using
radio, but you won't hear them unless you are listening.
:clown:

watermock
01-21-2007, 09:47 AM
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