Steelers HC search and the Rooney rule

[cutthemdown]

So Steelers look set to hire Grimm to be head coach. Nothing for sure though at this point. Also the have been interviewing Mike Tomlin an asst coach from the Vikings.

Of course it's obvious one is white and one is black. It's also obvious that Tomlin being interviewed for the job puts Pittsburgh in line with the Rooney rule that states a team must interview a minority.

My question is does anyone really think Pittsburgh for a second is really considering hiring Tomlin. Or is he just a good minority to satisfy the Rooney rule. And if thats the case wouldn't that make Rooney the guy the rule is named for sort of a joke?

[ludo21]

the whole rule is a joke imo.

If you want black coach, hire him, if you want a white guy, hire him. Making teams interview from either race just because is stupid.

I hardly see color tho, so race has never been a deal to me.

[-Slap-]

The Rooney Rule works. Its understood many teams conduct cursory interviews with minorities simply to comply with the rule, but the fact is minority hiring has improved dramatically since they enacted these guidelines.

The Rooney family is hardly a joke. They have more class than 75% of the current League owners combined.

[cutthemdown]

The Rooney Rule works. Its understood many teams conduct cursory interviews with minorities simply to comply with the rule, but the fact is minority hiring has improved dramatically since they enacted these guidelines.

The Rooney family is hardly a joke. They have more class than 75% of the current League owners combined.

So even if Rooney says hey lets interview Tomlin just to comply with rule you still say that is ok? Or is rule set up so that you don't have to be serious about who you interview, just interview a minority?

[-Slap-]

So even if Rooney says hey lets interview Tomlin just to comply with rule you still say that is ok? Or is rule set up so that you don't have to be serious about who you interview, just interview a minority?

I don't believe the Rooney's are interviewing Tomlin just to comply with the rule. If they were just jerking everybody off, I don't really see why they would bring him in for a second interview.

What line of reasoning drew you to the conclusion the Rooneys are insincere about this?

[-Slap-]

the whole rule is a joke imo.

If you want black coach, hire him, if you want a white guy, hire him. Making teams interview from either race just because is stupid.

I hardly see color tho, so race has never been a deal to me.

A League with 70% black players and only three black coaches in League history, as was the case when the Rooney Rule was established, wasn't a joke. It was blatant racism.

[BroncoInferno]

A League with 70% black players and only three black coaches in League history, as was the case when the Rooney Rule was established, wasn't a joke. It was blatant racism.

Here, here (or is it hear, hear?). NFL, like many corporations, has a good ol' boy system. It isn't necessarily overt racism, but the white buddies of the owners or their friends have always gotten the jobs. You can't tell me a league with 70% black players only has single digit number of deservant head coaching candidates. That's absurd.

[-Slap-]

Here, here (or is it hear, hear?). NFL, like many corporations, has a good ol' boy system. It isn't necessarily overt racism, but the white buddies of the owners or their friends have always gotten the jobs. You can't tell me a league with 70% black players only has single digit number of deservant head coaching candidates. That's absurd.

So, you're saying every NFL owner except Al Davis only had white friends?

That makes it way better.

[cutthemdown]

A League with 70% black players and only three black coaches in League history, as was the case when the Rooney Rule was established, wasn't a joke. It was blatant racism.

It seems like ratios like that would be hard to force closer. I mean you could say then if 80 percent of factory workers are mexican then so many of the managers
have to be? And in response to the question of if I think Rooney is sincere I don't really know. I think most times owners know who they want to hire way before the interview process. I also feel color should never figure into any competition. The only way things work right is when the best man gets the job. For coaches I would say how good an athlete you were may not have anything to do with coaching. So to say that whose on the field (80 percent black) should correspond to whose coaching (mostly white) might not be a good comparison if how good a football player you were has nothing to do with coaching.

[-Slap-]

It seems like ratios like that would be hard to force closer. I mean you could say then if 80 percent of factory workers are mexican then so many of the managers
have to be? And in response to the question of if I think Rooney is sincere I don't really know. I think most times owners know who they want to hire way before the interview process. I also feel color should never figure into any competition. The only way things work right is when the best man gets the job. For coaches I would say how good an athlete you were may not have anything to do with coaching. So to say that whose on the field (80 percent black) should correspond to whose coaching (mostly white) might not be a good comparison if how good a football player you were has nothing to do with coaching.


Well, if you want the best man for the job, then an African American head coach is usually the best choice in the NFL.

You might have noticed 50% of the head coaches in the conference championship games this weekend are black.

Since Art Shell was hired in 1989, there have been a combined 51 seasons by eight black head coaches. Of those 51 seasons, 27 - or 52.9 percent - reached the playoffs.

Obviously this success rate far exceeds their Caucasian counterparts, who make the playoffs less than 40% of the time.

:afro:

http://www.scrippsnews.com/node/18529

[Tredici]

So even if Rooney says hey lets interview Tomlin just to comply with rule you still say that is ok? Or is rule set up so that you don't have to be serious about who you interview, just interview a minority?

Ever want an opportunity to just get on the bus and from there you'll take your chances on making the team?

Given the opportunity a candidate no one expected might surprise the hell out of someone - and earn themselves a chance. I worked for a corporation that forced the same type of ruling when interviewing job candidates and it did promote new faces where they might not have even been considered otherwise. Sometimes people need a nudge. No harm in it.

[cutthemdown]

Well, if you want the best man for the job, then an African American head coach is usually the best choice in the NFL.

You might have noticed 50% of the head coaches in the conference championship games this weekend are black.

Since Art Shell was hired in 1989, there have been a combined 51 seasons by eight black head coaches. Of those 51 seasons, 27 - or 52.9 percent - reached the playoffs.

Obviously this success rate far exceeds their Caucasian counterparts, who make the playoffs less than 40% of the time.

:afro:

http://www.scrippsnews.com/node/18529

Wow so you're saying blacks make better coaches.

[Odysseus]

I wish the Broncos would hire Mike Singletary for anything.

[-Slap-]

Wow so you're saying blacks make better coaches.

Empirical evidence suggests as much. With 52% being higher than 38%.

I personally avoid blanket statements like "blacks make better coaches" to avoid looking like a fool. Some of them are good, like Tony Dungy. Some of them are clueless, like Herm Edwards. Some of them are downright wacky, like Dennis Green. There has always been that range of diversity among white coaches.

Maybe you're too young to remember, but black quarterbacks were quite a novelty at one time, too. 30 years ago, Warren Moon had to go to Canada to play quarterback, now guys like Quincy Carter get drafted and Anthony Wright can hang around the League for seven years.

Equal opportunity isn't about just giving chances to the best minority applicants. Its about giving a chance to the ones who might suck, too. The opportunity to fail is a privilege that was denied to men of color for years in the NFL. Plans like the Rooney Rule have helped to level the playing field.

[flynzebra]

Empirical evidence suggests as much. With 52% being higher than 38%.

I personally avoid blanket statements like "blacks make better coaches" to avoid looking like a fool. Some of them are good, like Tony Dungy. Some of them are clueless, like Herm Edwards. Some of them are downright wacky, like Dennis Green. There has always been that range of diversity among white coaches.

Maybe you're too young to remember, but black quarterbacks were quite a novelty at one time, too. 30 years ago, Warren Moon had to go to Canada to play quarterback, now guys like Quincy Carter get drafted and Anthony Wright can hang around the League for seven years.

Equal opportunity isn't about just giving chances to the best minority applicants. Its about giving a chance to the ones who might suck, too. The opportunity to fail is a privilege that was denied to men of color for years in the NFL. Plans like the Rooney Rule have helped to level the playing field.

Do you mean 48% of the time for their Caucasian colleagues? I still see your point.

[Kaylore]

I have mixed feelings about it. There is no question in my mind that the Rooney rule can be easily bypassed with token interviews and it is kind of a joke. Teams know what kind of coach they want and should be able to find those qualities without having to make race an issue.

That said, you have to wonder why of the 32 pro teams in the NFL last season, 6 of them had black head coaches. That's 18% which means they were overrepresented in the NFL with 12% of the US being African American. Now two just got canned, but those averages are pretty good especially when you consider that there are only 2 head coaches in all of NCAA football.
So maybe there's something to this rule.

I personally suspect that since so many players go into coaching and so many players were black for so long that you are seeing more and more black coaches in the pros. However you have to wonder why this trend isn't represented in College football. You'd think the more liberally minded institutions in America would have policies to create better results, and yet that is not the case.

As for Black coaches being better than white ones, I think they are like any other race of coach where some are more talented than others. However they might have one advantage over white coaches. Some players, like Larry Johnson (who grew up trying to survive in a white neighborhoods where power wheels and super-soakers roamed at will!) , can only respond to black coaching. So maybe in some ways they are better! ROFL!

[Rohirrim]

Just be glad the Faders aren't hiring Tomlin.

[footstepsfrom#27]

My question is does anyone really think Pittsburgh for a second is really considering hiring Tomlin. Or is he just a good minority to satisfy the Rooney rule. And if thats the case wouldn't that make Rooney the guy the rule is named for sort of a joke?
Are you asking this question every time a team fires a head coach and starts the hiring process, thus facing compliance with the NFL rule, or is there something about Tomlin that makes you ask it?

[-Slap-]

Do you mean 48% of the time for their Caucasian colleagues? I still see your point.

No, the figures are not recipricol.

If 12 teams make the playoffs out of 32, that means 37.5% of the coaches coached playoff teams.

The percentage of black coached teams to make the playoffs in history is 52%. 27 out of 51.

[KipCorrington25]

I'm calling out the NFL owners for being racist and then stating that blacks make better head coaches.

Hypocrisy.

[broncofan]

I really don't think the Rooney Rule should have to be in effect if you're promoting from within. A situation like Cowher's where he steps down isn't very common, as most vacancy's come from firings. If they want to promote Grimm, then let them.

[Mediator12]

Pittsburgh Also interviewed Ron Rivera who is a second minority candidate, so calling Tomlin a token interview is kind of naive. Rivera is most certainly deserved of a HC job and will probably miss out this year though since the favorites have been set.

As for Tomlin, people in Tampa and MIN speak very highly of him. The vast Tampa Cover two group includes Dungy, Lovie smith, Herm Edwards, and Rod Marinelli. Not bad assistant's for Monte Kiffin and he struggled mightily without them and Joe Barry (DC for detroit as of Jan 9) this year falling out of the top ten in defense and scoring defense for the first time in his tenure.

[cutthemdown]

Are you asking this question every time a team fires a head coach and starts the hiring process, thus facing compliance with the NFL rule, or is there something about Tomlin that makes you ask it?

No nothing about Tomlin makes me feel he isn't a good prospect for HC. I used him because it's the Steelers, Rooney and the rule is named for him. I really just threw this out there for discussion. I don't have enough info to say if Rooney really thinks about Tomlin, or does he just satisfies the rule. It's not a slam on Tomlin in the least. I don't really watch a lot of Viking football.

[Rock Chalk]

Well, if you want the best man for the job, then an African American head coach is usually the best choice in the NFL.

You might have noticed 50% of the head coaches in the conference championship games this weekend are black.

Since Art Shell was hired in 1989, there have been a combined 51 seasons by eight black head coaches. Of those 51 seasons, 27 - or 52.9 percent - reached the playoffs.

Obviously this success rate far exceeds their Caucasian counterparts, who make the playoffs less than 40% of the time.

:afro:

http://www.scrippsnews.com/node/18529


Poor use of statistics. Since there are far more white coaches than black coaches and only a limited amount of playoff spots, then there are going to be fewer white coaches that make the playoffs.

Lets say that there are 8 black head coaches and 4 make the playoffs. There are then 24 white coaches and only 8 CAN make the playoffs. Thats 1 in 3 white coaches that make the playoffs.

Do you think that 50% of black coaches would make the playoffs if there were 24 black coaches compared to 8 white coaches? That means that all of the coaches in teh playoffs would be black and not a single white head coach made it.

And btw, there is only one HC in the championship games thats black. Lovie Smith. Then theres Payton, Belichik and Manning ;D

[bendog]

When Campanis said black people "may not have some of the necessities to be, let's say, a field manager, or, perhaps, a general manager" he was unwittingly stating a truism. However, the reason they lacked the "necessities" was they hadn't been given the opportunity to acquire them.

The NFL is interesting because there are a good number of black ex-players who stay in the game via coaching. Baseball, back when Campanis made his comment, was more populated with white guys with marginal ability who hung in the game by going to the minors to coach, and working up to the show. Baseball's still coming to grips with its problems. Don Baylor being the prime example of how he needed Zimmer in the beginning for the art of the double switch, and managing w/o the DH. Then you get guys like Alou who has been around forever, it seems, but had to wait for a chance in the show. And of course Randolph in NY.

The Rooney rule has worked. What's happened is that it's given black guys the opportunity to interview, and obviously some have been impressed. Or, I guess one could suppose that even w/o the rule guys like crennell and smith get chances anyway, but there's no factual support for that belief, because black guys weren't hired before the rule.

And, it's not hypocricy to say the black coaches who've been hired are better than the white guys. It would actually make some sense given that there are guys who were untapped while the white retreads were getting the jobs. However, I'm not sure the stats show that, and personally I doubt Crennell will be much better than Payton.

[NaptownChief]

I can see the day coming if we aren't already there that someone like Denny Green or another experienced black former head coach just creates his own little offseason business. They let all NFL teams know that thhe will do a "formal" interview via the phone for a fee. Teams make a phone call "Hi Denny, wassup?"..."Thanks for taking the time to interview, your check is in the mail..." and then move about their intended hiring process.

[-Slap-]

I really don't think the Rooney Rule should have to be in effect if you're promoting from within. A situation like Cowher's where he steps down isn't very common, as most vacancy's come from firings. If they want to promote Grimm, then let them.

You know what's hilarious? The Rooneys are so tightlipped to be almost Raiderlike. They never said they were going to promote Grimm or Whisenhunt. Its entirely possible they're going to wait until Chicago is eliminated, so they can put Ron Rivera in the mix. I think Whisenhunt knew that and he decided to take the sure thing in Arizona rather than twist for six weeks.

[-Slap-]

I can see the day coming if we aren't already there that someone like Denny Green or another experienced black former head coach just creates his own little offseason business. They let all NFL teams know that thhe will do a "formal" interview via the phone for a fee. Teams make a phone call "Hi Denny, wassup?"..."Thanks for taking the time to interview, your check is in the mail..." and then move about their intended hiring process.

I can see the day coming when black head coaches will be hired and nobody will bat an eye. Its pathetic that we're not there already, but you're talking about a League that didn't even hire its first black head coach until 1989. When did MLB hire Frank Robinson to manage the Indians? 1975 wasn't it?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

No one can state this rule has resulted in hiring of more black coaches. The only reason teams interview minorities is because they are really interesed in them or to avoid being fined $200,000 for not doing it per the arbitrary rule.

Teams are smart enough or should be to know who the best candidates are out there, regardless of color or race. It just so happens that more black candidates are available lately due to more black assistants entering coaching years back.

[NaptownChief]

Empirical evidence suggests as much. With 52% being higher than 38%.

I personally avoid blanket statements like "blacks make better coaches" to avoid looking like a fool. Some of them are good, like Tony Dungy. Some of them are clueless, like Herm Edwards. Some of them are downright wacky, like Dennis Green. There has always been that range of diversity among white coaches.





I'm going to play by the avoiding blanket statements policy myself. I'm not going to spend time doing any homework but I'm guess stats could be twisted to tell whatever you want on the topic given that Denny Green, Art Shell and Romeo Crenel posted three of the biggest stinkers in the NFL this year.

At the college level the sample size is tiny so nothing of value can be made of it but Sly Croom at Miss St (9-25), Lou West at Indiana State (1-21) and Karl Dorrell (29-21) have done nothing to back any claims any claims of superiority.

[NaptownChief]

I can see the day coming when black head coaches will be hired and nobody will bat an eye. Its pathetic that we're not there already,

Completely agreed....I think it is pathetic that it is still an issue, it think it is pathetic that the media goes out of their way to make it an issue whenever possible and I think the Rooney rule is pathetic and I think it is even more pathetic that it was probably needed for some of the NFL teams.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

I can see the day coming when black head coaches will be hired and nobody will bat an eye. Its pathetic that we're not there already, but you're talking about a League that didn't even hire its first black head coach until 1989. When did MLB hire Frank Robinson to manage the Indians? 1975 wasn't it?

"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." MLK

I can't say it any better

[OCBronco]

Now two just got canned, but those averages are pretty good especially when you consider that there are only 2 head coaches in all of NCAA football.
So maybe there's something to this rule.

I personally suspect that since so many players go into coaching and so many players were black for so long that you are seeing more and more black coaches in the pros. However you have to wonder why this trend isn't represented in College football. You'd think the more liberally minded institutions in America would have policies to create better results, and yet that is not the case.

The problem in the NCAA is that while the professors at the schools are often overwhelmingly progressive, the trustees of those schools are not. Most universities are run like large businesses, and decisions are made for the universities by businesspeople. Thus the boards of trustees at most major universities looks a great deal like the boardrooms at most corporations. Moreover, most decisions about whom to hire at the Division 1 level need to be signed off by the Trustees. So, on the assumption that the buddy system is at work in these hiring decisions, it should come as no surprise that Division 1 coaches are hired based on their appeal to the boards of trustees and the boosters, many of whom are overwhelmingly white.

[NaptownChief]

The problem in the NCAA is that while the professors at the schools are often overwhelmingly progressive, the trustees of those schools are not. Most universities are run like large businesses, and decisions are made for the universities by businesspeople. Thus the boards of trustees at most major universities looks a great deal like the boardrooms at most corporations. Moreover, most decisions about whom to hire at the Division 1 level need to be signed off by the Trustees. So, on the assumption that the buddy system is at work in these hiring decisions, it should come as no surprise that Division 1 coaches are hired based on their appeal to the boards of trustees and the boosters, many of whom are overwhelmingly white.




I'm not 100% certain on this but I beleive most universities require those on their coaching staffs to have a college degree. And it would make sense as you wouldn't want a coach being a role model to the student/athletes and not being able to talk about the importance of getting their degree.

If that is the case and I believe it is, that thins the coaching talent pool as some of the minority coaching candidates went to the NFL before finishing up their degree.

[footstepsfrom#27]

This cat did pretty well...

http://www.aaregistry.com/eimage/EddieRobinson(CoachFootball).gif

[cutthemdown]

The color thing gets distorted if you are white sometimes as well. Right now there are zero CB in the NFL that are white. I think. If one comes along you can bet that media would make a big deal out of it. Any good white wr instantly reminds people of Largent just because he is white. I don't think we will ever get to a point where color will be forgotten and not be an issue. I like to play a lot of James Brown songs because I'm a sax player. I get tons of black people saying man a white boy that can play Maceo Parker riffs too cool. It's like an oddity to them. Anytime someone breaks a mold of the color stereotype people will notice.

[OCBronco]

I'm not 100% certain on this but I beleive most universities require those on their coaching staffs to have a college degree. And it would make sense as you wouldn't want a coach being a role model to the student/athletes and not being able to talk about the importance of getting their degree.

If that is the case and I believe it is, that thins the coaching talent pool as some of the minority coaching candidates went to the NFL before finishing up their degree.

Even if you're right that many african-american coaching candidates don't possess college degrees (which I highly doubt), that still doesn't explain why there being dozens of african-american assistant coaches (all of whom have degrees) translates to only 4 african-american headcoaches.

[bendog]

College is different. The HC has to please the alumns, who, unless you coach at grambling or someplace, are still overwhelmingly white, and country club republicans. This will eventually change.

Plus, Slap is totally correct in noting that up until the mid 70s the NFL was blatantly racist. Anyone familar with Lenny Moore's trials in Baltimore or George Allen's career in LA will know that. What we're now seeing is a generation of black former players from the 70s and 80s who've hung in as assts who are now coming of age for HC jobs. (Denny Green being an exception who came up through the college ranks)

The Rooney rule may be unnecessary because imo today fans don't care about the race of a coach. He has to speak and dress and not do "thug," but fans want winning teams. Some owners demand wins, and others just care about reaming the fans. But, on the other hand, since black guys were not hired in the past, the rule doesn't do any harm.