Bush Ends His Spying On Americans Program

[Bronco_Beerslug]

He seen the heat coming I'm sure.

----------------------------------------------------------
Bush won't reauthorize U.S. eavesdropping program (http://tinyurl.com/28ksmx)
By James Vicini 2 hours, 19 minutes ago

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -
President Bush has decided not to renew a program of domestic spying on terrorism suspects, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said on Wednesday, ending a tactic criticized for infringing on civil liberties.

Gonzales said electronic surveillance will be subject to approval from a secret but independent court, which Democrats in Congress and other critics have demanded during more than a year of fierce debate.

"The president has determined not to reauthorize the Terrorist Surveillance Program when the current authorization expires," Gonzales wrote in a letter to congressional leaders that disclosed the administration's shift in approach.

Bush has reauthorized the program every 45 days, and the current authorization is mid-cycle, a senior Justice Department official said. Gonzales said a recent secret-court approval allowed the government to act effectively without the program.

The program, adopted after the September 11 attacks, allowed the government to eavesdrop on the international phone calls and e-mails of U.S. citizens without a warrant, if those wiretaps were made to track suspected al Qaeda operatives.

Critics have said the program violated the U.S. Constitution and a 1978 law, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which made it illegal to spy on U.S. citizens in the United States without the approval of the special surveillance court.
CONT.

[Stuck In Texas]

This is a mistake IMO. I have no problem with someone listening to my phone calls if it keeps innocent people from being killed. Oh well, what are a few deaths as long as political correctness rules the day?

[Spider]

He seen the heat coming I'm sure.

----------------------------------------------------------
Bush won't reauthorize U.S. eavesdropping program (http://tinyurl.com/28ksmx)
By James Vicini 2 hours, 19 minutes ago

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -
President Bush has decided not to renew a program of domestic spying on terrorism suspects, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said on Wednesday, ending a tactic criticized for infringing on civil liberties.

Gonzales said electronic surveillance will be subject to approval from a secret but independent court, which Democrats in Congress and other critics have demanded during more than a year of fierce debate.

"The president has determined not to reauthorize the Terrorist Surveillance Program when the current authorization expires," Gonzales wrote in a letter to congressional leaders that disclosed the administration's shift in approach.

Bush has reauthorized the program every 45 days, and the current authorization is mid-cycle, a senior Justice Department official said. Gonzales said a recent secret-court approval allowed the government to act effectively without the program.

The program, adopted after the September 11 attacks, allowed the government to eavesdrop on the international phone calls and e-mails of U.S. citizens without a warrant, if those wiretaps were made to track suspected al Qaeda operatives.

Critics have said the program violated the U.S. Constitution and a 1978 law, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which made it illegal to spy on U.S. citizens in the United States without the approval of the special surveillance court.
CONT.

no doubt he felt the heat coming .......... he was about to be bítch slapped ......
Bust knew it was wrong , did it as long as he could then stopped ........ to bad they cant retro charges on his punk ass ..........

[cbs1177]

It amazes me that Bush is just now asking for a line item veto to control pork barrel projects to help control the debt. Umm he could have gotten that within his first six years. Yeah to '08.

[Spider]

It amazes me that Bush is just now asking for a line item veto to control pork barrel projects to help control the debt. Umm he could have gotten that within his first six years. Yeah to '08.

No kidding .........but there are people who will even defend that ....... to some Bust can do no wrong

[cbs1177]

No kidding .........but there are people who will even defend that ....... to some Bust can do no wrong

I voted for Bush both times but blame the "Democraps" b/c they didn't produce a stronger candidate. Seriously Kerry was on the extreme other end of Bush on speakee. I didn't know what he was trying to say either. Bunch of legal jargon that didn't leave you any better off for asking. Come on didn't win any Southern states. Sad Sad Sad.

[Spider]

I voted for Bush both times but blame the "Democraps" b/c they didn't produce a stronger candidate. Seriously Kerry was on the extreme other end of Bush on speakee. I didn't know what he was trying to say either. Bunch of legal jargon that didn't leave you any better off for asking. Come on didn't win any Southern states. Sad Sad Sad.

the way I was hoping things would work out is Democrat president , Republican congress ...... that worked well with Clinton ..........

[cbs1177]

the way I was hoping things would work out is Democrat president , Republican congress ...... that worked well with Clinton ..........

Clinton was from Arkansas and the South no Democrat has ever won with out one state from the south. Nor has one Republican won with out Ohio. Since the 1952. Go Huckabee. He was from Hope also and lost 110 pounds kudos for that. I see him as a VP in the coming elections in O8. No Northern has won in as many as years. Good reason I guess.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Thank goodness the media is around and already committing themselves to slander on a large scale so that we dont have to send emails to them begging them to help get this guy fired from his job.

[Spider]

Thank goodness the media is around and already committing themselves to slander on a large scale so that we dont have to send emails to them begging them to help get this guy fired from his job.

whats the slander?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Thank goodness the media is around and already committing themselves to slander on a large scale so that we dont have to send emails to them begging them to help get this guy fired from his job.Hey Yak, when you and your girlfriend get together do you orgle?

[TailgateNut]

Thank goodness the media is around and already committing themselves to slander on a large scale so that we dont have to send emails to them begging them to help get this guy fired from his job.


Do you realize how old this is getting!

[bendog]

There were two different programs that were disclosed. One was NSA identified "suspicious" numbers outside the US, and tapped any calls from the US to those numbers. That's important because any terrorist presumbably would know that drug dealers use throw away phones. There's never been a problem with getting warrants for those (though bushii didn't want to get warrants), and in any emergency the govts just gonna tap w/o a warrant anyway.

The other was the data mining where supposedly the NSA had a computer program that could detect suspicious communications just by analyzing the date time location. The govt never needed a warrant for that. Now to actually access the telephone calls themselves, well yeah the needed a warrant (though bushii wouldn't get one) but again there's no problem getting one if there's a reasonalbe suspicion.

I would hope that the NSA has similar tools for tracking internet emails and IMs

[alkemical]

This is a mistake IMO. I have no problem with someone listening to my phone calls if it keeps innocent people from being killed. Oh well, what are a few deaths as long as political correctness rules the day?

Why should i be guilty before innocent?

[alkemical]

I voted for Bush both times but blame the "Democraps" b/c they didn't produce a stronger candidate. Seriously Kerry was on the extreme other end of Bush on speakee. I didn't know what he was trying to say either. Bunch of legal jargon that didn't leave you any better off for asking. Come on didn't win any Southern states. Sad Sad Sad.



You have other alternatives. The continued power hold for the currently two party political system, banks on this form of apathy to keep it status quo.

[alkemical]

There were two different programs that were disclosed. One was NSA identified "suspicious" numbers outside the US, and tapped any calls from the US to those numbers. That's important because any terrorist presumbably would know that drug dealers use throw away phones. There's never been a problem with getting warrants for those (though bushii didn't want to get warrants), and in any emergency the govts just gonna tap w/o a warrant anyway.

The other was the data mining where supposedly the NSA had a computer program that could detect suspicious communications just by analyzing the date time location. The govt never needed a warrant for that. Now to actually access the telephone calls themselves, well yeah the needed a warrant (though bushii wouldn't get one) but again there's no problem getting one if there's a reasonalbe suspicion.

I would hope that the NSA has similar tools for tracking internet emails and IMs



See this Bendog (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=52030)

[bendog]

That sucks. Not so much that the govts doing it, but that no one is overseeing why or what reason they have. It's disturbing because from the Cat Stevens nonsense to some guys in Ore, or somewhere on the West Coast, we know the govts targeting people who send money to hamas. Hamas didn't attack us, never has killed an American in America, has said over and over it won't, and while a terrorist organization, it does provide social services to people who have relatives who are US citizens.

Reagan explicitly targeted the IRA, which was good, and I'm not saying bushii shouldn't do the same to hamas, but he should at least have the honesty to say what he's doing and why .... and pressure Israel to get out of the WB.

[alkemical]

That sucks. Not so much that the govts doing it, but that no one is overseeing why or what reason they have. It's disturbing because from the Cat Stevens nonsense to some guys in Ore, or somewhere on the West Coast, we know the govts targeting people who send money to hamas. Hamas didn't attack us, never has killed an American in America, has said over and over it won't, and while a terrorist organization, it does provide social services to people who have relatives who are US citizens.

Reagan explicitly targeted the IRA, which was good, and I'm not saying bushii shouldn't do the same to hamas, but he should at least have the honesty to say what he's doing and why .... and pressure Israel to get out of the WB.

Who will watch the watchers......

[defenseman]

Who will watch the watchers......

That has been a dilemma for years. And, it will never change, UNTIL the need for it is gone. That, will never happen...dman

[alkemical]

That has been a dilemma for years. And, it will never change, UNTIL the need for it is gone. That, will never happen...dman


I disagree with that Dman. We make the choice for things to be this way.

But here's an example on why i think paranoia breeds paranoia - I'll let a philosophy from the late great Robert Anton Wilson illustrate:

Celine's First Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celine%27s_laws)


National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity.

Reflecting the paranoia of the Cold War, Celine's First Law focuses around the fact that to have national security, one must create a secret police. Since internal revolutionaries and external foes would make the secret police a prime target for infiltration, and because the secret police would by necessity have vast powers to blackmail and intimidate other members of the government, another higher set of secret police must be created to monitor the secret police. And even higher set of secret police must then be created to monitor the higher order of secret police. Repeat ad nauseam.

This seemingly infinite regress goes on until every person in the country is spying on another, or "the funding runs out." And since this paranoid and self monitoring situation inherently makes targets of a nation's own citizens, the average person in the nation is more threatened by the massive secret police complex than by whatever foe they were seeking to protect themselves from. Wilson points out that the Soviet Union, which suffered from this in spades, got to the point that it was terrified of painters and poets who could do little harm to them in reality.

At the same time, given the limitation of funding and scale, the perfect security state never truly emerges, leaving the populace still vulnerable from the original threat while also being threatened by the vast and Orwellian secret police.


___


That's sort of where i stand on this.

[bendog]

The watchers. Well, first there are the fisa judges. They in a sense spy on each other. They sit in panels. Not all will just give it a pass. We know because Bushii initiated part of the telephone tap w/o warrants in response to one panel actually being so rude to attach a copy of the official guidelines for probable cause to a denial of an application sent to the DOJ.

My guess is that there's a deal to give bushii part of what he says he needs in lowering the prob cause requirements. But to do that he's got not only to get the Fisa judges to agree, but he's also had to disclose it to the "gang of four" or the "gang of seven." The four being the the ranking dems/gopers in each house, and the seven being them and three more... I forget whom.

But then there are the leakers. If something stinks, generally someone squeaks. Are the media in it? Hey, if bushii screws us, the NYT and Washpost loves to tell us (though they pushed the iraq war). If Clinton got a freaking bj, fox had an orgasm telling us about it. It's what the listeners wanna hear. Greed is sometimes good, in moderation.

Bushii trying to ax the whistleblower protections, and putting Judith Miller in jail were not real good things ....

ps, gotta go.

[Dudeskey]

no doubt he felt the heat coming .......... he was about to be bítch slapped ......
Bust knew it was wrong , did it as long as he could then stopped ........ to bad they cant retro charges on his punk ass ..........

I still wonder if it wasn't mainly used to spy on the Dems a la Nixon

[Bronco Bob]

This is a mistake IMO. I have no problem with someone listening to my phone calls if it keeps innocent people from being killed. Oh well, what are a few deaths as long as political correctness rules the day?

So wanting our constitutional rights protected is now "political correctness"?
Lots of people have died to protect the constitution, so yes, a few deaths
are indeed worth it if it means greater freedom for all Americans. As to
your phone calls, I don't have a problem with the government listening in
on your phone calls either. But leave my phone the hell alone.

[alkemical]

So wanting our constitutional rights protected is now "political correctness"?
Lots of people have died to protect the constitution, so yes, a few deaths
are indeed worth it if it means greater freedom for all Americans. As to
your phone calls, I don't have a problem with the government listening in
on your phone calls either. But leave my phone the hell alone.

Good post.

My only additional thought is: "Why am I guilty before innocent?"

[Stuck In Texas]

So wanting our constitutional rights protected is now "political correctness"?
Lots of people have died to protect the constitution, so yes, a few deaths
are indeed worth it if it means greater freedom for all Americans. As to
your phone calls, I don't have a problem with the government listening in
on your phone calls either. But leave my phone the hell alone.

Do you know which rights are being violated? Believe me.. the government doesn't care that you're talking to your girlfriend. I haven't noticed any degradation of my rights since 9/11 - have you? Do you have a specific example of how your rights have been violated? I would be curious, because I hear a lot of people complaining about "losing their rights", but I have never heard of a personal experience.

[bendog]

Do you know which rights are being violated? Believe me.. the government doesn't care that you're talking to your girlfriend. I haven't noticed any degradation of my rights since 9/11 - have you? Do you have a specific example of how your rights have been violated? I would be curious, because I hear a lot of people complaining about "losing their rights", but I have never heard of a personal experience.

well, there's the case on the WC where journalists and academics have shown that people in other countries will no longer speak to them, so yes our rights have been lessened in the first amendment area, and there's really no argument to the contrary. What can be argued is whether the loss in our ability to hear what non-Americans are saying is outweighed by what we gained in security. Since we cannot know what we gained in the latter, to argue one way or the other is pretty meaningless. We all have our own views on the matter, but there's no way to "prove" one or the other.

Personally my fear is that without the counterbalances - of having courts issue warrants, the select few number of congress members of the opposition party knowing "exactly" what the potus and NSA are doing, and protections for whistleblowers who notify the press - the temptation of using spying for stuff other than terrorism will be impossible to resist.

[Stuck In Texas]

well, there's the case on the WC where journalists and academics have shown that people in other countries will no longer speak to them, so yes our rights have been lessened in the first amendment area, and there's really no argument to the contrary. What can be argued is whether the loss in our ability to hear what non-Americans are saying is outweighed by what we gained in security. Since we cannot know what we gained in the latter, to argue one way or the other is pretty meaningless. We all have our own views on the matter, but there's no way to "prove" one or the other.
I hadn't heard about that case, but I do think it's funny that people living outside the U.S. would be concerned about talking to U.S. citizens because of "wiretaps". It's my understanding that those people overseas are more likely to be tapped than the Americans. lol I do agree with you that debating the topic is probably pointless since we'll probably never know what's being done. ** Yes I know I debated it earlier :loopy: ** My opinion, though, is that if it saves one innocent life, the program is worth it. Like I said before though, I personally have no problem with my phone calls being monitored, but I have boring conversations!


Personally my fear is that without the counterbalances - of having courts issue warrants, the select few number of congress members of the opposition party knowing "exactly" what the potus and NSA are doing, and protections for whistleblowers who notify the press - the temptation of using spying for stuff other than terrorism will be impossible to resist.
I'm glad that few people know about what the POTUS and NSA are doing. I think it's a known fact that people on both sides of the aisle have loose lips. The fewer people that know what's going on, the better. I'm sure that enough people have knowledge of the program to maintain oversight. After all, didn't it come out soon after the program became public that select members from both parties were aware of the program?

[bendog]

As I recall on the data mining one, it was leaked because the program was devised back when WJC was potus, and it had some element that prevented someone from seeing the content of the message that was "mined." Bushii instructed that the feature be disabled. As I recall, the gang of 4 was told something about this program, though how much I have no idea.

I'm not sure Bushii disclosed the warrantless taps. I think so, but I'm not sure. Personally, I've always been in favor of allowing the NSA to do warrantless taps for a short while, like 3 days or something, to see if probable cause does turn up ... but I think they should disclose to the FISA courts every one who has been tapped, and whatever is learned can only be used on terrorism and not other crimes.