Re-Tooling the O-line

[chrisp]

With all the talk about the Broncos O-line and all the possible changes, I thought it might be wise to have a look at the size of the ones in the best teams today.

Please let me precursor this analysis by saying that size isn't everything: undersized players can be good players and big players can suck, however it remains a significant factor in this league.

Also I would like to point out that having big players at the position does NOT always indicate a philosophy in favour of big guys - most teams have a variety of shapes and sizes competing for each position in camp, and sometimes its just case of what comes out in the wash.

So, I don't want to overplay this, but looking at the average weight (in lbs) of Offensive linemen in the 8 playoff teams this weekend we get the following:

BALT: 323
INDY: 306.4
NEW E: 306.2
SAN D: 312.8
CHIC: 305.4
NEW O: 313
PHIL: 331.2
SEAT: 313.65

Overall Average: 313.65 per man

Now if you look at the Broncos, we average the following:

WITH Foster: 301.4
WITHOUT Foster: 291.8

Now please don't think I'm making a case for Foster with these stats - far from it. However, if we are comparing weights we have to look at the figures with and without Foster as it is questionable as to whether he is a starter or not, but he makes almost 10lbs per man difference to the average!!

So, let’s say that with Foster maybe starting or maybe not starting next year our average is roughly 295 lbs/man. That's still close to 20lbs/man off the average, and 30-40 lbs/man off some of the bigger teams. Bear in mind also that if Foster is benched and Pears (305lbs) returns to backup status when Lepsis (290lbs) returns, our average goes down to 288.8 lbs/man, with no single player over 295lbs!!

So when you hear rumours that we may be looking to build a bigger line, please don't get carried away: It may just be a case of us getting into the same size bracket as New England and Indy with most of our guys the right side of 300lbs. In other words, there is plenty of room to increase the size of the O-line without still making us one of the bigger lines.

However, this analysis becomes a little more illuminating when we look at average by POSITION amongst the 8 playoff teams rather than average by team:

LT: 323.63
LG: 313.63
C: 301.63
RG: 312.75
RT: 316.63

You can see from this that as far as the interior goes we aren't set too badly. Bear in mind we have Kuper and Myers waiting in the wings who are both just over 300lbs - smaller than average but not too far off the pace. Where we are really looking small is at the tackle positions. Foster is the only player there who approaches the prototype size, and he looks to be out of the door, with rumours about giving him a try at guard, if indeed he stays with the team at all. This means that we have Pears at 305 and Meadows and Lepsis at 290 each.

With Lepsis coming off a major injury, I wouldn’t therefore be surprised to see a play for a free-agent tackle this offseason, as if they are looking to build a bigger line, the tackle position is the area they most need to address. It could be addressed in the draft, but we’ve had our fingers burned with Foster, and it always takes a draftee O-lineman a year or two to become a player in the league. With slim pickings in the FA market, we could see a trade of some description.

It’s a long shot, because any tackle that is made available, particularly a left tackle, usually isn’t that good. If a team has a decent LT they tend to hang onto him. One thing I’m not too sure about however, is the rules on franchise players. I know that the Rams have consistently franchised Orlando Pace, and I believe there is an issue there between club and player. If there is any limit to the number of times you can franchise a player, the rams may have reached it, so pace could be hitting the open market.

That’s just one suggestion, but something similar with another player could be in the works – I’m not too well up on the status of tackles around the league so I'm curious to know what people think, particularly those of you who have a closer tab on player personnel….

[BroncoInferno]

Interesting breakdown. Anybody know what starting tackles (if any) will be free agents this offseason?

[crazyhorse]

http://www.draftdaddy.com/prospects/freeagent.cfm

[broncocalijohn]

Some teams are lighter than us. I guess we are too fat. You can take Foster out as I would be surprised if that big tub of goo is around next year. We will get our token fat guy in next year. We needed a lighter line for Plummer if he was going to roll out and throw from the other side of the hash marks. Is Cutler staying in the pocket? Are we going passing first option next year and need to protect for the pass in the pocket? Those are questions we will need to wait on.

[BroncoInferno]

http://www.draftdaddy.com/prospects/freeagent.cfm

Good source, thanks.

Leonard Davis...didn't Shanny try to bring him in a couple of seasons ago?

[-Slap-]

Great research. I want to get bigger throughout the roster.

[BroncoInferno]

Great research. I want to get bigger throughout the roster.

Leonard Davis at RT? I'm almost positive Shanny tried either to sign or trade for him a couple of seasons back

[Clockwork Orange]

Leonard Davis = George Foster

[BroncoInferno]

Leonard Davis = George Foster

Is he that bad? I thought he had a couple of rough early years but had been fairly solid since

[-Slap-]

Leonard Davis = George Foster

He's no George Foster, but he doesn't live up to his stature as the NFL's biggest man, either.

[BroncoInferno]

He's no George Foster, but he doesn't live up to his stature as the NFL's biggest man, either.

Looks like slim pickins at tackle,then. Assuming Lepsis is OK we'll probably go with him and let Pears/Meadows/Foster compete for RT while bringing in a youngster on the first day of the draft

[bloodsunday]

Weight is an overrated way to measure an OL.

Our OL works awesome at what they are asked to do. They have enough athelticism to get to the second level and reach block very well. The don't pass block as well, but if we can run the ball then its fine. We need a RB and maybe to get healthy on the OL. Retooling is unnecessary and nearly impossible in one offseason.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

I am betting that the only change in personnel we see on the OL is a body for body replacement for Carlisle unless Lepsis is cannot come back full strength.

[TheChamp24]

Lets get Steinbach at OG.

[illbroncsfn]

I don't disagree with the notion that a little added beef upfront would not be advantagous for the Broncos- but it just may be time to have a youth movement as well....

One cannot discount what Tom Nalen means to the continuity of the o-line as he is arguably the greatest o-lineman in Denver Broncos history minus Gary Zimmerman who split time between Denver, Minnesota, and the USFL. I see the 2007-08 season as the swan song for Nails.

Projections for the 2007-08 season:

LT- Lepsis (should return to pre-injury form)
LG- Hamilton
C- Nalen
RG- Carlisle (? could depart in free agency) Kuper/ Foster (could be a road grader at Guard)
RT- Foster/ Pears/ Meadows

2008-09 Projection

LT- Lepsis
LG- C.Meyers
C- Hamilton (just don't see Eslinger panning out- hope I'm wrong!
RG- Kuper
RT- Pears

The good news right now is that we do have a bit of depth and should have some interesting competition in training camp. In retrospect Rick Dennison has done a nice job overall with the O-line, however this past year was not his best work. I for one would be fine to see old "napolean" Alex Gibbs as a consultant for the upcoming year, however that is highly, highly unlikely.

[orinjkrush]

to get to the stupidbowl we had to have zimmerman and stinky and nalen and others.

we are not near that quality now. we don't look like we're close either.

[Barry Ramey]

I'd be surprised if Cincy let Steinbach get away, much less the Broncos having the cap room to outbid Cincy and others for him.

If the Broncos trot out Foster again next year as a starter, then I can see they don't have a clue about the OL. I don't want Foster even on the team so they'd ever have to play him again. Some say he should play guard. Excuse me if I don't feel better about him blocking guys even closer to the QB. If he was, then better get a high quality veteran QB as a backup since Foster would see that Cutler would not play a full season.

[fontaine]

Guess who's the starting RT for the Jets and has had a decent year?

Anthony Clement. The same guy we had in here for a year but never cracked the starting roster even though he DID have prototype size at 6'8 320lbs. Different schemes I guess.

When was the last time a FA OL actually came in and played well for us? There have been isolated accidents in Meadows, Brock etc, but for the large part we only play OL that we draft in the past 6-7 years. Ironic because the SuperBowl team had so much success with FA OL.

I don't know if the answer is all simple as drafting for bigger guys but I do think that if we do want to drastically upgrade the OL then we can't just sit back and draft 5th/6th/7th rounders and hope for the next Tom Nalen.

[Drek]

I don't think our needs are as much about getting more beef on the line as just having capable guys at all five spots. Nalen is still the heart of the OL but he's not generating near the push he used to. Carlisle is good in run blocking but struggles in pass blocking, and Foster went from being a historically good run blocker who struggled with speed rushers to having his game completely fall apart in '06.

We have some promising talent, Eslinger will show us what he has in NFLE, if he can play NFL sized DLs over there we'll have a good idea if he can handle it here. Kuper is a big guy that the staff likes a lot, he should become a quality OG for is in the near future. Eric Pears also looked pretty good as a starter this year and is a bitbigger than most of our current OLs.

I think the FO is looking at getting bigger OLs, but they still want the athletic guys we need for our zone blocking system. I think many of the guys are in place already. Here's possible lineups for the next two years:

'07
LT - Lepsis (290)
LG - Hamilton (283)
C - Nalen (286)
RG - Carlisle (295)
RT - Pears (305)

AVG: 291.8

'08
LT - Lepsis (290)
LG - Hamilton (283)
C - Myers/Eslinger (300/292)
RG - Kuper (305)
RT - Pears (305)

AVG: 296.6/295

At that point the only sub 290 guy is Ben Hamilton, who is one of the better OGs in the league and consistantly ranked by our coaches as one of our best OLs. I'll take him over most any 300 pound OG. We have an OG (Kuper), OL (Pears) and two OG/C's (Myers, Eslinger) waiting in the wings who will all be bigger by ~10 pounds or more than the guys they're replacing. We're getting bigger, but it won't stop us from running the same OL schemes, thats just Broncos football.

I'd be intregued at Foster moving to RG. His biggest problem piror to this season was speed rushers, which he'd get away from by playing inside. I think being next to Nails will also help him keep his head in the game and avoid penalties. If that were to work out we'd be adding some major beef to the starting line. Even barring that I'd keep him for the '07 season, he still holds value in goal line situations.

[fontaine]

I do think some of our OL problems are a bit overblown.

We're a bit spoiled in having the kind of OL/RB success we've had in here in the past.

I know that even though we had a lot of problems in pass protection/running the ball at crucial times, it's blown up out of context considering the injury to Lepsis and Foster regressing, and that we still finished top ten in rushing given we had an undrafted FA RB, and Tatum was injured for most of the season, and our passing game was non existent. Looking at the glass as half full, that could almost be thought of as an accomplishment.

I do think that if Lepsis returns healthy, with Hamilton/Nalen/Carlisle/Pears we'll have a very good OL.

I disagree with the idea that we struggle in the red zone/short yardage because of our OL. I think they get the blame for some really questionable FO decisions.

I mean, we don't have a blocking TE. Stephen Alexander sucks at it and Chad Mustard was a castoff from the Browns. We don't have blocking FBs and both guys were injured this year. We don't have a short yardage back either. And don't say it was Mike Bell. Any one who goes into the season counting on an undrafted FA to turn into a short yardage (read: crucial) runner is brain dead.

I can certainly understand the idea of having an athletic OL and it appeals to me. But I cannot stand it when this FO tries to finesse other areas of the run game like having piss poor blocking at TE/FB and no short yardage runner. That's just cheap and short sighted.

I mean good blocking TEs/FBs are dirt cheap on the market and every year we just try to get by with some converted RB pretended he's a fullback or Stephen Alexander blowing blocks on the perimeter. Enough already.

[BroncoInferno]

I do think some of our OL problems are a bit overblown.

We're a bit spoiled in having the kind of OL/RB success we've had in here in the past.

I know that even though we had a lot of problems in pass protection/running the ball at crucial times, it's blown up out of context considering the injury to Lepsis and Foster regressing, and that we still finished top ten in rushing given we had an undrafted FA RB, and Tatum was injured for most of the season, and our passing game was non existent. Looking at the glass as half full, that could almost be thought of as an accomplishment.

I do think that if Lepsis returns healthy, with Hamilton/Nalen/Carlisle/Pears we'll have a very good OL.

I disagree with the idea that we struggle in the red zone/short yardage because of our OL. I think they get the blame for some really questionable FO decisions.

I mean, we don't have a blocking TE. Stephen Alexander sucks at it and Chad Mustard was a castoff from the Browns. We don't have blocking FBs and both guys were injured this year. We don't have a short yardage back either. And don't say it was Mike Bell. Any one who goes into the season counting on an undrafted FA to turn into a short yardage (read: crucial) runner is brain dead.

I can certainly understand the idea of having an athletic OL and it appeals to me. But I cannot stand it when this FO tries to finesse other areas of the run game like having piss poor blocking at TE/FB and no short yardage runner. That's just cheap and short sighted.

I mean good blocking TEs/FBs are dirt cheap on the market and every year we just try to get by with some converted RB pretended he's a fullback or Stephen Alexander blowing blocks on the perimeter. Enough already.

Nice post. This is why I'd like to see us bring in Daniel Graham, even though Scheffler looks like an emerging star. Graham could be the Carswell to Scheffler's Sharpe. I'd like a bulldozer at FB as well (Taco has mentioned his desire for one numerous times), though other than top guys like Neal I don't know much about the leagues top blocking FBs and if any are available in FA.

[fontaine]

Take a look at Tomlinson's season.

The vast majority of his yardage (1461) and TDs (27 of 28) came from the I formation where he was lined up with Lorenzo Neal most of the time, and on some occasions, Michael Turner who's bigger than our FBs.

Loreno Neal is a 260 hammer at FB who's been an all pro for the past decade.

Also, they usually split Gates out wide or in slot as a WR a lot (he's not a great blocker) which means their base TE which was used for more than half of LTs carries was Brandon Manumaluna who's a 290 lb blocking TE.

Again, that's just two rosters spots using dirt cheap salaries which we instead waste every year on a Nate Jackson, or Ron Dayne, Cobbs, Wesley Duke, Kircus, Charlie Adams etc. There's too much of that cute sh*t happening in Denver and not enough of getting more power at the LOS.

[fontaine]

Nice post. This is why I'd like to see us bring in Daniel Graham, even though Scheffler looks like an emerging star. Graham could be the Carswell to Scheffler's Sharpe. I'd like a bulldozer at FB as well (Taco has mentioned his desire for one numerous times), though other than top guys like Neal I don't know much about the leagues top blocking FBs and if any are available in FA.

Holmes/LJ had guys like Jason Dunn, Tony Richardson (Gonzo is a great blocker)

Alexander on his MVP year had Mack Strong (ProBowl FB) and Stevens.

etc etc. It's NOT an absolute need to have that FB/TE combo but it really helps when your OL is smaller and more athletic.

[Drek]

Too true Fontaine, though I like having Chad Mustard on the roster, we just need to clean out the mediocrity of Alexander and Jackson so that he'll see the blocking work he should.

I'd love to see us draft Regan Matua late, he's huge and would be like lining a 6th OL up in the backfield. Moreso than that though, I'd really like to draft Corey Anderson from Tennessee in the 5th or 6th round. His listed weight ranges from 255-270 (pretty sure its because he shed some pounds before the '06 season), real good athlete who has real good blocking power. Love to see him in the backfield providing a legit run/pass blocker, receiver, and short yardage runner.

[fontaine]

Too true Fontaine, though I like having Chad Mustard on the roster, we just need to clean out the mediocrity of Alexander and Jackson so that he'll see the blocking work he should.

I'd love to see us draft Regan Matua late, he's huge and would be like lining a 6th OL up in the backfield. Moreso than that though, I'd really like to draft Corey Anderson from Tennessee in the 5th or 6th round. His listed weight ranges from 255-270 (pretty sure its because he shed some pounds before the '06 season), real good athlete who has real good blocking power. Love to see him in the backfield providing a legit run/pass blocker, receiver, and short yardage runner.

It would make a welcome change from drafting the next Dominick Hixon, or Adrian Madise allright.

[BroncoInferno]

It would make a welcome change from drafting the next Dominick Hixon, or Adrian Madise allright.

Well, to be fair, Hixon might turn out to be a good player. He didn't have much of a chance with his injury this season. He'll get a chance in the return game next season.

[fontaine]

Well, to be fair, Hixon might turn out to be a good player. He didn't have much of a chance with his injury this season. He'll get a chance in the return game next season.

I don't disagree with the player Hixon might be.

I disagree with the pigheaded stupidity of a FO that would draft a player with enough of an injury issue to cause him to end up on IR, especially when someone like Mark Anderson was still available.

It's not just Hixon either.

Same with Darius "the Claw" Watts who we reached for when other WRs were around, same with Maurice Clarett and his damaged mind, same with George Foster and his busted wrist that meant he had minimal starting experience at Clemson which would have showed what a lazy turd he really is, same with Toviessie and his busted knee.

And these were all first day picks recently.

When it comes to damaged goods, Denver can't help itself, doesn't learn from it's mistakes and tempts fate, which will get you an a$$ kicking each time.

Well, at least the Greek is earning every penny of his paycheck. Maybe we ought to promote him to "Head Trainer and Physical Qaulity Inspector."

[Odysseus]

Great research. I want to get bigger throughout the roster.

The biggest problem with little guys with heart is....they are little. A small CB whose switched to safety is just a small CB but a guy who is average sized can play a wider range of positions without altering his natural chemistry.

This has proven successful for the Broncos so change comes hard with the Broncos. It's one of the surest ways to retain staff as well as keep costs down. You can always find a player with heart there.

Broncos finally are getting taller recievers. We need to get away from Oompah Loompahs at every position. They should be the exception and not the rule.

[BroncoInferno]

I don't disagree with the player Hixon might be.

I disagree with the pigheaded stupidity of a FO that would draft a player with enough of an injury issue to cause him to end up on IR, especially when someone like Mark Anderson was still available.

It's not just Hixon either.

Same with Darius "the Claw" Watts who we reached for when other WRs were around, same with Maurice Clarett and his damaged mind, same with George Foster and his busted wrist that meant he had minimal starting experience at Clemson which would have showed what a lazy turd he really is, same with Toviessie and his busted knee.

And these were all first day picks recently.

When it comes to damaged goods, Denver can't help itself, doesn't learn from it's mistakes and tempts fate, which will get you an a$$ kicking each time.

Well, at least the Greek is earning every penny of his paycheck. Maybe we ought to promote him to "Head Trainer and Physical Qaulity Inspector."

I believe their thinking is that they are getting players who otherwise would have been picked higher, gambling that the injury problem won't persist. That's OK sometimes, but I agree, we see it too often.

Small correction: Foster played at Georgia, not Clemson.

[sirhcyennek81]

I'd be surprised if Cincy let Steinbach get away, much less the Broncos having the cap room to outbid Cincy and others for him.

If the Broncos trot out Foster again next year as a starter, then I can see they don't have a clue about the OL. I don't want Foster even on the team so they'd ever have to play him again. Some say he should play guard. Excuse me if I don't feel better about him blocking guys even closer to the QB. If he was, then better get a high quality veteran QB as a backup since Foster would see that Cutler would not play a full season.



If I recall, 3 of Cinci's starting 5 Olinemen are free agents, Levi Jones, Steinbach and Willie Anderson. I think Anderson.

:Broncos:

[fontaine]

If I recall, 3 of Cinci's starting 5 Olinemen are free agents, Levi Jones, Steinbach and Willie Anderson. I think Anderson.

:Broncos:

Steinbach is a FA and the bengals want him back.

Both Jones/Anderson are signed for the next few years. Cincy had some cap room going into the season and wisely extended their deals.

BTW, forget about Steinbach. Hell, would quite literally freeze over before Shanahan would pay $10million SB to grab a top OL like Steinbach.

[Drek]

same with George Foster and his busted wrist that meant he had minimal starting experience at Clemson which would have showed what a lazy turd he really is, same with Toviessie and his busted knee.


Foster is often labeled as lazy, but if that was the case he never would have started here in the first place. I think his problem more centers around losing whatever mean streak he used to have, pretty much ever since he injured Bryan Cox its been steadily downhill. You can't play cautious as an OL and thats just what Foster does, he doesn't want to step on any toes.

I like picking Hixon, sure Anderson was already on the board but we'd just picked Dumervil our selection before that. Only so many one dimensional pass rushing RDEs are needed on a roster.

If you want to cite taking Watts when we could have had Randy Starks in '04 I'm there with you, that was horrible. Or taking Clarett when Brandon Jacobs was still on the board, but that was basically an early 4th and Turner wanted to take a shot on the punk.

For years Shanahan was all about taking the best athletes regardless of actual football skills or health and he'd take them early. Thats a valid criticism, but it looks to have come to an end with Sundquist's increased role with the draft. The last two drafts we've saved the unproven athletes for the second day, where they should be. Assuming the trend continues I'm happy. Make the first day picks count, then go for boom/bust candidates on day 2.

[BroncoInferno]

Foster is often labeled as lazy, but if that was the case he never would have started here in the first place. I think his problem more centers around losing whatever mean streak he used to have, pretty much ever since he injured Bryan Cox its been steadily downhill. You can't play cautious as an OL and thats just what Foster does, he doesn't want to step on any toes.

Yeah, it was kind of weird. All the predraft stuff on him talked about what a mean streak he had, but we haven't seen much of that in Denver. Maybe that injury thing with the negative publicity that followed took away some of his edge.

[fontaine]

Foster is often labeled as lazy, but if that was the case he never would have started here in the first place. I think his problem more centers around losing whatever mean streak he used to have, pretty much ever since he injured Bryan Cox its been steadily downhill. You can't play cautious as an OL and thats just what Foster does, he doesn't want to step on any toes.

I like picking Hixon, sure Anderson was already on the board but we'd just picked Dumervil our selection before that. Only so many one dimensional pass rushing RDEs are needed on a roster.

If you want to cite taking Watts when we could have had Randy Starks in '04 I'm there with you, that was horrible. Or taking Clarett when Brandon Jacobs was still on the board, but that was basically an early 4th and Turner wanted to take a shot on the punk.

For years Shanahan was all about taking the best athletes regardless of actual football skills or health and he'd take them early. Thats a valid criticism, but it looks to have come to an end with Sundquist's increased role with the draft. The last two drafts we've saved the unproven athletes for the second day, where they should be. Assuming the trend continues I'm happy. Make the first day picks count, then go for boom/bust candidates on day 2.

I do think Foster is lazy. Any player that gets benched only to get another shot to cement the starting gig and plays even worse is lazy. His footwork, leverage and the fact that he doesn't keep his knees bent all point to sloppy/lazy technique.

[BroncoInferno]

I do think Foster is lazy. Any player that gets benched only to get another shot to cement the starting gig and plays even worse is lazy. His footwork, leverage and the fact that he doesn't keep his knees bent all point to sloppy/lazy technique.

Losing your confidence can bring about the same maladies. I think that's more Foster's problem than work ethic. I don't think Shanny would let him anywhere near the field if he was just plain lazy on top of playing poorly. Laziness is only tolerated when the player is talented enough to make an adequate number of plays regardless.

[sirhcyennek81]

I actually think foster is too heavy, and tires out. Drop him to 315, 310, he should be ok, maybe even dominant.

:Broncos:

[Drek]

I do think Foster is lazy. Any player that gets benched only to get another shot to cement the starting gig and plays even worse is lazy. His footwork, leverage and the fact that he doesn't keep his knees bent all point to sloppy/lazy technique.

But his footwork, etc. wasn't nearly as bad prior to this year, so at some point he had the work ethic to develop an NFL game. Maybe laziness resulted in his technique falling off a table this season, but before that he started playing soft football, like a 340 pound teddy bear who just wants to hug opposing DLs.

Maybe you consider it lazy, but if he showed the same problems in practice I think Shanahan would've benched him much sooner. Its when he needs to man up and actually hit someone that his game disappears.

[fontaine]

But his footwork, etc. wasn't nearly as bad prior to this year, so at some point he had the work ethic to develop an NFL game. Maybe laziness resulted in his technique falling off a table this season, but before that he started playing soft football, like a 340 pound teddy bear who just wants to hug opposing DLs.

Maybe you consider it lazy, but if he showed the same problems in practice I think Shanahan would've benched him much sooner. Its when he needs to man up and actually hit someone that his game disappears.

Shanahan tried. He tried to bench him last year by putting in Cornell Green at times to see what Green could do, and the experiment ended when Green got injured and sent to IR, I think. Same thing happened this year.

There's no doubt Foster has incredible potential and sometimes coaches have to let that play out in the field let the player grow into it. No future probowler steps on the field from day one as the final polished package.

As far as practice? I don't know about that but you can go back and see the camp reports from the guys here that call out Foster as early as the summer.

[Rascal]

We don't need Steinbach at OG. We have Cooper who performed very well this year (better then any lineman we had IMO) and he can be resigned for a lot cheaper. IMO we should resign him and then start Kuper at LG (Hamilton can be traded/cut/benched/whatever).

[brother love]

Lepsis, Kuper, Nalen, Foster, Pears.

This could turn into a solid line Foster moving to guard would be a good move I think. I had heard last week somewhere that Carlise would probably not be resigned because they like Kuper so much.

[Play2win]

Anybody know how Chris Myers development is going?

[footstepsfrom#27]

This entire offensive line needs to be revamped. Nalen's to old, Hamilton's to small, Foster's the worst OT in the league, and Pears is average at best, though he did well for an UFA..Carlyle's a poor pass blocker too. Who knows if Lepsis can return but even if he does he has maybe two more good years left. Their pass blocking stinks and they can't power block on the goal line which is a major disadvantage. We have an offense we're planning to build around the quarterback position now yet there are still people in here who think the fact that our O-line can't pass block is not a problem as long as we can run. Even that's questionable now. We move the ball now mostly on those rare occassions when the back breaks off a big gain, but we don't move the chains consistently. If I had my druthers I'd take O-line guys with the top 4 picks in this draft. I know we need D-line help too and a RB and safety as well, but offensive linemen take time to develop so the sooner we start the sooner the arrive as viable players. Kiper lists at least 5 guys with first round grades so we ought to get one of them.

Every year we hear that it will take to long for them to do that so we ignore the problem and hope the next free agent stiff will somehow solve our problem. In the Shanahan era we've drafted only one O-line guy in the first round and because he sucks there are people who think we should never do it again. To get studs you have to spend high picks most of the time and that goes for any position. The only reason we've been getting away with the 6th rounders and UFA guys playing is because the scheme was something teams rarey saw and couldn't easily prepare for. That's not as true anymore, and in addition, the defensive linemen are getting not only bigger but faster as well. It's absurd to think that our 285 pound guard can stand up to the pounding with 340 pound DT's game after game and not get worn down by season's end.

The Cutler era is here...time to surround him with what he needs. That means a quality line that can keep the guy from getting killed.

[TheChamp24]

This entire offensive line needs to be revamped. Nalen's to old, Hamilton's to small, Foster's the worst OT in the league, and Pears is average at best, though he did well for an UFA..Carlyle's a poor pass blocker too. Who knows if Lepsis can return but even if he does he has maybe two more good years left. Their pass blocking stinks and they can't power block on the goal line which is a major disadvantage. We have an offense we're planning to build around the quarterback position now yet there are still people in here who think the fact that our O-line can't pass block is not a problem as long as we can run. Even that's questionable now. We move the ball now mostly on those rare occassions when the back breaks off a big gain, but we don't move the chains consistently. If I had my druthers I'd take O-line guys with the top 4 picks in this draft. I know we need D-line help too and a RB and safety as well, but offensive linemen take time to develop so the sooner we start the sooner the arrive as viable players. Kiper lists at least 5 guys with first round grades so we ought to get one of them.

Every year we hear that it will take to long for them to do that so we ignore the problem and hope the next free agent stiff will somehow solve our problem. In the Shanahan era we've drafted only one O-line guy in the first round and because he sucks there are people who think we should never do it again. To get studs you have to spend high picks most of the time and that goes for any position. The only reason we've been getting away with the 6th rounders and UFA guys playing is because the scheme was something teams rarey saw and couldn't easily prepare for. That's not as true anymore, and in addition, the defensive linemen are getting not only bigger but faster as well. It's absurd to think that our 285 pound guard can stand up to the pounding with 340 pound DT's game after game and not get worn down by season's end.

The Cutler era is here...time to surround him with what he needs. That means a quality line that can keep the guy from getting killed.

OH NOES WE ARE DOOMED WE DONT HAVE AN OL!!!!!!!

[toad]

There's too much of that cute sh*t happening in Denver and not enough of getting more power at the LOS.

I think I agree with that.

I don't claim to be a coach, I'm just fan.......I know the basics, but can't tell you the in-depth differences schemes, etc.

But, it does seem to me that, although our sub-300 lineman are nasty in their own way, in today's NFL having lighter OLs translates to a "finesse" game.

[BroncoBuff]

He's no George Foster, but he doesn't live up to his stature as the NFL's biggest man, either.

Speaking of 'biggest', that's a Whole Lotta Leonard in Arizona ... when Davis lined up next to Pope against us it was a wall ... the two average 6'7" 320.

[BroncoBuff]

Lepsis, Kuper, Nalen, Foster, Pears.

This could turn into a solid line Foster moving to guard would be a good move I think. I had heard last week somewhere that Carlise would probably not be resigned because they like Kuper so much.

Hamilton?!

Adam Schefter called Ben Hamilton one of the 'Top 10 Pro Bowl Snubs' ... and he did that the week after Al called himout for Bronco bias ...

[Rascal]

This entire offensive line needs to be revamped. Nalen's to old, Hamilton's to small, Foster's the worst OT in the league, and Pears is average at best, though he did well for an UFA..Carlyle's a poor pass blocker too. Who knows if Lepsis can return but even if he does he has maybe two more good years left. Their pass blocking stinks and they can't power block on the goal line which is a major disadvantage. We have an offense we're planning to build around the quarterback position now yet there are still people in here who think the fact that our O-line can't pass block is not a problem as long as we can run. Even that's questionable now. We move the ball now mostly on those rare occassions when the back breaks off a big gain, but we don't move the chains consistently. If I had my druthers I'd take O-line guys with the top 4 picks in this draft. I know we need D-line help too and a RB and safety as well, but offensive linemen take time to develop so the sooner we start the sooner the arrive as viable players. Kiper lists at least 5 guys with first round grades so we ought to get one of them.

Every year we hear that it will take to long for them to do that so we ignore the problem and hope the next free agent stiff will somehow solve our problem. In the Shanahan era we've drafted only one O-line guy in the first round and because he sucks there are people who think we should never do it again. To get studs you have to spend high picks most of the time and that goes for any position. The only reason we've been getting away with the 6th rounders and UFA guys playing is because the scheme was something teams rarey saw and couldn't easily prepare for. That's not as true anymore, and in addition, the defensive linemen are getting not only bigger but faster as well. It's absurd to think that our 285 pound guard can stand up to the pounding with 340 pound DT's game after game and not get worn down by season's end.

The Cutler era is here...time to surround him with what he needs. That means a quality line that can keep the guy from getting killed.

Pears did very well IMO for being thrown into a situation like that at LT against the other teams top DE. Give him another year and at RT and I think he will be fine.

Cooper is fine against the pass, and IMO should be our primary guy to resign.

Hamilton is too small and I wouldn't mind benching/trading him.

IMO our starting line should be Lepsis, Kuper, Nalen (one more year and then Eslinger or Myers will start), Carlisle, Pears. Average weight: 295.6.

Hell even if we keep Hamilton for when Nalen retires that will be okay. Get Graham at TE along with a good blocking FB and we'll be fine.

[Rascal]

People need to get off the Foster bandwagon ****. Moving him to guard will not solve his problems. They are not physical...he simply doesn't have the mentality to play in the NFL (ie the drive).

[Rascal]

Hamilton?!

Adam Schefter called Ben Hamilton one of the 'Top 10 Pro Bowl Snubs' ... and he did that the week after Al called himout for Bronco bias ...

He did? Link?

[Atlas]

I don't disagree with the player Hixon might be.

I disagree with the pigheaded stupidity of a FO that would draft a player with enough of an injury issue to cause him to end up on IR, especially when someone like Mark Anderson was still available.

It's not just Hixon either.

Same with Darius "the Claw" Watts who we reached for when other WRs were around, same with Maurice Clarett and his damaged mind, same with George Foster and his busted wrist that meant he had minimal starting experience at Clemson which would have showed what a lazy turd he really is, same with Toviessie and his busted knee.

And these were all first day picks recently.

When it comes to damaged goods, Denver can't help itself, doesn't learn from it's mistakes and tempts fate, which will get you an a$$ kicking each time.

Well, at least the Greek is earning every penny of his paycheck. Maybe we ought to promote him to "Head Trainer and Physical Qaulity Inspector."


Did you ever think that Hixon went on IR because he wasn't good enough to make the team this year?? I mean Denver does it every year. Stashing players on IR are a convienent way to keep them around. If Hixon plays next year and is good what difference does it make whether or not he was on IR this past year???

[Drek]

Pears did great for a guy who stepped in at LT with no regular season experience. He didn't have any preseason time to gel with the rest of the OL and still worked in sync pretty well. I think he could easily be a plus RT and at 305 lbs. he's hardly undersized.

I think Carlisle might be allowed to walk, Kuper has impressed the staff and is a great combo of size and agility. The two of them revamping the right side of the line with a healthy Lepsis would make for a much better OL than we saw this year.

And anyone bagging on Hamilton aught to get their eyes checked. He's outplayed everyone on our line the last few years and he's the last guy on the line I'd call out for wearing down.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Pears did great for a guy who stepped in at LT with no regular season experience. He didn't have any preseason time to gel with the rest of the OL and still worked in sync pretty well. I think he could easily be a plus RT and at 305 lbs. he's hardly undersized.

I think Carlisle might be allowed to walk, Kuper has impressed the staff and is a great combo of size and agility. The two of them revamping the right side of the line with a healthy Lepsis would make for a much better OL than we saw this year.

And anyone bagging on Hamilton aught to get their eyes checked. He's outplayed everyone on our line the last few years and he's the last guy on the line I'd call out for wearing down.

Carlisle walks, the Broncs probably get a comp pick in 2008.

Every year for the last three years, Shanahan comes out at the end of the season and said that Hamilton graded out as their best offeinsive lineman. I suspect the same happens this year. For the last two years the Broncos have been running to the left behind Hamilton/Lepsis rather than to the right. About the only time they get positive yardage to the right is when Hamilton pulls to the right or Nalen slides right. Wabbit said before the season that the coaches had originally planned for Hamilton to eventually replace Nalen, but his play at guard was so good they would resist moving him and prefer to replace Nalen with Meyers or Elsinger. That is the reason they drafted those two.

[RunSilentRunDeep]

Pears may be a feel-good story but he struggled badly as the season wore on. He's a reserve and nothing more. For what it's worth, I watched the Cards game again focusing solely on Leonard Davis. I never watched him before, but he played very well against Denver. I know he has a rep of an underachiever, but apparently he was solid all year (contract year, shocker!)

Cooper should be let go. He's average at best.

[broncogary]

With all the talk about the Broncos O-line and all the possible changes, I thought it might be wise to have a look at the size of the ones in the best teams today.

Please let me precursor this analysis by saying that size isn't everything: undersized players can be good players and big players can suck, however it remains a significant factor in this league.

Also I would like to point out that having big players at the position does NOT always indicate a philosophy in favour of big guys - most teams have a variety of shapes and sizes competing for each position in camp, and sometimes its just case of what comes out in the wash.

So, I don't want to overplay this, but looking at the average weight (in lbs) of Offensive linemen in the 8 playoff teams this weekend we get the following:

BALT: 323
INDY: 306.4
NEW E: 306.2
SAN D: 312.8
CHIC: 305.4
NEW O: 313
PHIL: 331.2
SEAT: 313.65

Overall Average: 313.65 per man

Now if you look at the Broncos, we average the following:

WITH Foster: 301.4
WITHOUT Foster: 291.8

Now please don't think I'm making a case for Foster with these stats - far from it. However, if we are comparing weights we have to look at the figures with and without Foster as it is questionable as to whether he is a starter or not, but he makes almost 10lbs per man difference to the average!!

So, let’s say that with Foster maybe starting or maybe not starting next year our average is roughly 295 lbs/man. That's still close to 20lbs/man off the average, and 30-40 lbs/man off some of the bigger teams. Bear in mind also that if Foster is benched and Pears (305lbs) returns to backup status when Lepsis (290lbs) returns, our average goes down to 288.8 lbs/man, with no single player over 295lbs!!

So when you hear rumours that we may be looking to build a bigger line, please don't get carried away: It may just be a case of us getting into the same size bracket as New England and Indy with most of our guys the right side of 300lbs. In other words, there is plenty of room to increase the size of the O-line without still making us one of the bigger lines.

However, this analysis becomes a little more illuminating when we look at average by POSITION amongst the 8 playoff teams rather than average by team:

LT: 323.63
LG: 313.63
C: 301.63
RG: 312.75
RT: 316.63

You can see from this that as far as the interior goes we aren't set too badly. Bear in mind we have Kuper and Myers waiting in the wings who are both just over 300lbs - smaller than average but not too far off the pace. Where we are really looking small is at the tackle positions. Foster is the only player there who approaches the prototype size, and he looks to be out of the door, with rumours about giving him a try at guard, if indeed he stays with the team at all. This means that we have Pears at 305 and Meadows and Lepsis at 290 each.

With Lepsis coming off a major injury, I wouldn’t therefore be surprised to see a play for a free-agent tackle this offseason, as if they are looking to build a bigger line, the tackle position is the area they most need to address. It could be addressed in the draft, but we’ve had our fingers burned with Foster, and it always takes a draftee O-lineman a year or two to become a player in the league. With slim pickings in the FA market, we could see a trade of some description.

It’s a long shot, because any tackle that is made available, particularly a left tackle, usually isn’t that good. If a team has a decent LT they tend to hang onto him. One thing I’m not too sure about however, is the rules on franchise players. I know that the Rams have consistently franchised Orlando Pace, and I believe there is an issue there between club and player. If there is any limit to the number of times you can franchise a player, the rams may have reached it, so pace could be hitting the open market.

That’s just one suggestion, but something similar with another player could be in the works – I’m not too well up on the status of tackles around the league so I'm curious to know what people think, particularly those of you who have a closer tab on player personnel….

This is one of the best tongue in cheek spoofs in a while. :rofl:

If we play Foster, our line will be better because the average weight will be closer to the average weight of the top 5 teams.

Meanwhile, if we don't play him, our average weight will go away from the average, so our line will be worse, even if the replacement for Foster actually blocks. ;D

[JPEZ]

Coach Gibbs was the master at getting things done with those "lean-n-mean" Offensive lines! Bring him back quick :thumbsup:

[footstepsfrom#27]

The most telling thing on this board about our O-line is that there's very little consensus about these guys. Somebody likes Pears...the next guy thinks he struggled...Hamilton's to small...but he grades out well...Nalen's about done...no he's not...Foster sucks...but maybe at guard?...Carlyle's our best blocker...no he's not he can't pass block...Lepsis is a stud...yeah but he's got the injury...etc...etc.

When you have legit pro bowl caliber players nobody argues whether they're good or not. I don't see any debate in here over Champ or Al. Nobody argues that Jonathan Ogden's not really that great...get the point? Our O-line is average or less in talent and bottom of the league in size. Combine those factors and you have a recipe for problems, especially in pass protection.

Let's just draft some big uglies. :thumbs:

[broncogary]

Let's just draft some big uglies. :thumbs:

With the 21st pick, the Denver Broncos select:

























Hillary Clinton, OL, Yale. :rofl:

[footstepsfrom#27]

With the 21st pick, the Denver Broncos select:
Well if we can't get a bug ugly how 'bout a big Ugoh instead? Maybe this dude:

http://vmedia.rivals.com/uploads/1004/8010.jpg
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profile.php?pyid=16930

Or this one...http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profile.php?pyid=12451

http://www.nittanyanthology.com/pic_BROWN_Levi.jpg

[Popps]

Nice post. This is why I'd like to see us bring in Daniel Graham, even though Scheffler looks like an emerging star. Graham could be the Carswell to Scheffler's Sharpe. I'd like a bulldozer at FB as well (Taco has mentioned his desire for one numerous times), though other than top guys like Neal I don't know much about the leagues top blocking FBs and if any are available in FA.

Love the fullback idea. I've asked the question for a while, too. We basically gave up on the idea after Griffith left, which I never understood because he was such a vital player for us.

As for Graham, I think (like you mentioned) Sheffler is a budding star. In fact, I think he'll be much more productive than Graham will next season. Cutler's got a laser-lock on that guy and aside from him, we've got one of the better blocking TEs in the game in Alexander. (He's not a FA, is he?)

I think Sheffler could have Pro Bowl numbers next year.

[fontaine]

Did you ever think that Hixon went on IR because he wasn't good enough to make the team this year?? I mean Denver does it every year. Stashing players on IR are a convienent way to keep them around. If Hixon plays next year and is good what difference does it make whether or not he was on IR this past year???

All the teams that feature solid STs year in year out draft guys to play for ST and not for IR.

If Hixon was put on IR because he wasn't good enough to make the team this year, even though we had NO set return guys going into camp then chalk it up as another failure for the FO.

[fontaine]

As for Graham, I think (like you mentioned) Sheffler is a budding star. In fact, I think he'll be much more productive than Graham will next season. Cutler's got a laser-lock on that guy and aside from him, we've got one of the better blocking TEs in the game in Alexander. (He's not a FA, is he?)

I think Sheffler could have Pro Bowl numbers next year.

LOL

Alexander is joke in the blocking game. He pretty much admitted in 2005 that he's not a blocking TE and never was, and in 2006 there were a couple of times he openly admitted on missing blocks that resulted in some crucial plays against us.

Graham is one of the best blocking TEs in the game. He should be brought in while Scheffler is a pass catcher who's blocking sucks as well.

[chrisp]

This is one of the best tongue in cheek spoofs in a while. :rofl:

If we play Foster, our line will be better because the average weight will be closer to the average weight of the top 5 teams.

Meanwhile, if we don't play him, our average weight will go away from the average, so our line will be worse, even if the replacement for Foster actually blocks. ;D

I really, really hope you're not suggesting that was what my post was saying, given that I made a point of stating clearly that a) size is NOT the sole determinant of O-line ability, only one factor and b) I was NOT making a case for Foster playing based on his size, merely saying that his status was uncertain next year so if you wanted to look at the average weight of the starting line you had to look at the numbers both with and without Foster.

I appreciate that if you just skim read my post, missing out all the long words and difficult bits then just write the first thing that comes into your head free-assocication style you'll come up with what you just wrote - next time I'll spell it out more clearly so that even people with comedy avatars can get it.....

I was merely trying to have a look at one ASPECT of the line in the light of rumours that the staff may be looking to upgrade the size of it. I was certainly NOT making a case for Foster to start. Most people seemed to grasp that going by the majority of comments & responses, but there's always one isn't there ....:dummy: