I'd like you to meet: wilileaks.org

[alkemical]

WikiLeaks.org (http://www.wikileaks.org/index.html)



WikiLeaks is developing an uncensorable version of WikiPedia for untraceable mass document leaking and analysis. Our primary targets are highly oppressive regimes in China, Russia, central eurasia, the middle east and sub-saharan Africa, but we also expect to be of assistance to those in the west who wish to reveal unethical behavior in their own governments and corporations. We aim for maximum political impact; this means our interface is identical to Wikipedia and usable by non-technical people. We have received over 1.1 million documents so far. We plan to numerically eclipse the content the english wikipedia with leaked documents.

Open government is strongly correlated to quality of life. Open government answers injustice rather than causing it (plans which cause injustice are revealed and opposed before implementation). Open government exposes, and so corrects, corruption. Historically, the most resilient form of open government is one where leaking and publication is easy. Public leaking, being an act of ethical defection to the majority, is by its nature a democratising force.

Hence a system enables everyone to leak safely to a ready audience is the most cost effective means of promoting good government -- in health and medicine, in food supply, in human rights, in arms controls and democratic institutions.

The world has enough food. It has enough medicine. It has enough scientific research and invention. We know how to prevent malaria --- we've known for over 50 years. We know how to halt HIV. We know how to put down our guns. It can be peaceful, just and healthy; all it needs is good governance. Politicians are not capable of it. We have to engineer it.

[yavoon]

I love the idea, the last paragraph is communist tripe unfortunately.

fixed my diction:)

[alkemical]

In response to your continoulsy vapid comments on communism (make up your mind on what you are scured of - communists or terrorists - BOOOGABOOOGABOOGA! BOO!):

Could be worse, it could be neo-free market econ - like the world bank - that puts an avg of 111 conditions on any loan to any developing country.

In some cases, it invovles turning over nat'l resource commodities to large companies (like say a pipeline to BP), and then to cut jobs that the gov't would have, and after the jobs are cut - then they raise the cost of cooking gas - all due to conditions of the world bank.

The bonds and chains of a captialistic society are no different than those of any other system. Sometimes it may be more visable, but they all have them.

[W*GS]

The bonds and chains of a captialistic society are no different than those of any other system. Sometimes it may be more visable, but they all have them.

Interesting take, considering that capitalistic systems have provided, and continue to provide, far higher standard of living (and I don't mean just per-capita GDP) for more people than any other system yet devised.

The proof is in the pudding, as it were.

[alkemical]

Interesting take, considering that capitalistic systems have provided, and continue to provide, far higher standard of living (and I don't mean just per-capita GDP) for more people than any other system yet devised.

The proof is in the pudding, as it were.

But when your pudding has that funky skin on it, it's still nasty. So Wags, by your statement above - it would seem that as long as you have your couch, tv and 3 squares - the rest doesn't matter. I also notice that you don't want to address that there is bondage under the capitalist system. So don't try to side step too much, i'd hate to see you fall off the edge.

Remember, i am not anti-free market - it's just any system has flaws in it.

[yavoon]

In response to your continoulsy vapid comments on communism (make up your mind on what you are scured of - communists or terrorists - BOOOGABOOOGABOOGA! BOO!):

Could be worse, it could be neo-free market econ - like the world bank - that puts an avg of 111 conditions on any loan to any developing country.

In some cases, it invovles turning over nat'l resource commodities to large companies (like say a pipeline to BP), and then to cut jobs that the gov't would have, and after the jobs are cut - then they raise the cost of cooking gas - all due to conditions of the world bank.

The bonds and chains of a captialistic society are no different than those of any other system. Sometimes it may be more visable, but they all have them.

yes they are different, because they create massive wealth and luxury. and I'll let u in on a little secret, the vast majority of countries that nationalize their resources are worse off for it. russia is doing it now and it will probably end really poorly.

two countries that have done very well economically and dont have nationalized resources? britain and america.

and u dont have to accept a world bank loan.

[yavoon]

But when your pudding has that funky skin on it, it's still nasty. So Wags, by your statement above - it would seem that as long as you have your couch, tv and 3 squares - the rest doesn't matter. I also notice that you don't want to address that there is bondage under the capitalist system. So don't try to side step too much, i'd hate to see you fall off the edge.

Remember, i am not anti-free market - it's just any system has flaws in it.

u come w/ all the lingo and verbage of a commie and ur not 'anti free market.' hahahahahahhaha. u talk about capitalistic slavery, spit at the world bank, run interference games of equivalence between the most powerful economic system ever devised and whatever ur pet stupidity is.

hahahahahah, the intellectually dishonesty in this post just went off the charts.

[alkemical]

yes they are different, because they create massive wealth and luxury. and I'll let u in on a little secret, the vast majority of countries that nationalize their resources are worse off for it. russia is doing it now and it will probably end really poorly.

two countries that have done very well economically and dont have nationalized resources? britain and america.

and u dont have to accept a world bank loan.



Yet, they support the benifits of other countries nat'lizing their nat'l resources (See Ecuador & the pipeline they had to turn over to BP). Not to mention Yavoon - if it's a good enough resource, it's worth overthrowing a leader and installing a tyrant just so we get the best price. (See iran and the overthrow of the shah).

[yavoon]

Yet, they support the benifits of other countries nat'lizing their nat'l resources (See Ecuador & the pipeline they had to turn over to BP). Not to mention Yavoon - if it's a good enough resource, it's worth overthrowing a leader and installing a tyrant just so we get the best price. (See iran and the overthrow of the shah).

umm we wanted the shah in power. iran was our friend before then. I like how this is progressing, no discernable point, just jumping from one of ur messed up ideas to another.

I even missed one of ur stupidities, the subsidization of oil/gas in poor countries. this is quite common, but it can completely destroy a country economically. yet when we ask them to let their prices float morons like u think we're harming them irreparably when all we're doing is telling them not to shoot themselves in the foot.

[alkemical]

u come w/ all the lingo and verbage of a commie and ur not 'anti free market.' hahahahahahhaha. u talk about capitalistic slavery, spit at the world bank, run interference games of equivalence between the most powerful economic system ever devised and whatever ur pet stupidity is.

hahahahahah, the intellectually dishonesty in this post just went off the charts.



Actually not really. Since you haven't addressed any real points and just came back to your personal attacks. I'm not anti-free market. But to truley have a free market you have to also be objective to all things and responsiblities a free market would bear.

So while a cop is selling videos of how not to get busted, he is selling a niche product to capitalize on those who fear the state will bust them.

Just as by creating instability in an oil producing region, allows countries who aren't a member of the OPEC cartel to sell their oil @/below the cost OPEC may set - creating a competitive market - through an instable sitution politically. It's why diamonds are cheap to buy from warlords in africa as well. If those countries were stable and had a paid workforce- diamonds would increase in cost to DeBeers, etc. That cost would raise, and less diamonds would be sold to the middle markets in the world.

It's pretty easy to see how there are negatives to the so called "free-markets, are very much equal the the oppression that a totalitarian economic system would be equal in many ways.

[yavoon]

Actually not really. Since you haven't addressed any real points and just came back to your personal attacks. I'm not anti-free market. But to truley have a free market you have to also be objective to all things and responsiblities a free market would bear.

So while a cop is selling videos of how not to get busted, he is selling a niche product to capitalize on those who fear the state will bust them.

Just as by creating instability in an oil producing region, allows countries who aren't a member of the OPEC cartel to sell their oil @/below the cost OPEC may set - creating a competitive market - through an instable sitution politically. It's why diamonds are cheap to buy from warlords in africa as well. If those countries were stable and had a paid workforce- diamonds would increase in cost to DeBeers, etc. That cost would raise, and less diamonds would be sold to the middle markets in the world.

It's pretty easy to see how there are negatives to the so called "free-markets, are very much equal the the oppression that a totalitarian economic system would be equal in many ways.

all the countries ur talking about as oppression dont have free markets. they have totalitarian regimes, and while I'm sure u(being a loyal chomskyite) blame the US for literally everything in the world.

OPEC is an anti free market cartel, the diamon traders are warlords, both are pretty much the opposite of free market.

[alkemical]

umm we wanted the shah in power. iran was our friend before then. I like how this is progressing, no discernable point, just jumping from one of ur messed up ideas to another.

I even missed one of ur stupidities, the subsidization of oil/gas in poor countries. this is quite common, but it can completely destroy a country economically. yet when we ask them to let their prices float morons like u think we're harming them irreparably when all we're doing is telling them not to shoot themselves in the foot.



We assasinated a democratically elected official to install a dictator - since the democratically elected offical was going to nat'lize the oil fields and remove BP's influence. Of course if you understood a bit of history, you wouldn't be missing points all the time. But then again, i can understand since you don't really have an understanding of the issue, you just again - return to personal attacks. (Which is the surest way to show how little you know about the subject).

Again you totally don't understand how to read. I stated the WORLD BANK forced the subsidation to a corporation to meet one of the condtions of the loan, meanwhile raising the rates 60% for that product to it's own people. IN a developing nation, you don't want to outprice your market - that's simple economics right there.

[yavoon]

We assasinated a democratically elected official to install a dictator - since the democratically elected offical was going to nat'lize the oil fields and remove BP's influence. Of course if you understood a bit of history, you wouldn't be missing points all the time. But then again, i can understand since you don't really have an understanding of the issue, you just again - return to personal attacks. (Which is the surest way to show how little you know about the subject).

Again you totally don't understand how to read. I stated the WORLD BANK forced the subsidation to a corporation to meet one of the condtions of the loan, meanwhile raising the rates 60% for that product to it's own people. IN a developing nation, you don't want to outprice your market - that's simple economics right there.

I just dont fall for ur constant bait about how bad the US is. I know ur basically a chomskyite and love communist regimes and blame the US for everything so much so that there can't exist a conversation about a topic like this w/o every post of urs saying something about the US.

I explain to u the stupidity of not following the free market and u say "YAH WELL THE US DOES BAD THINGS TO PPL SO UR AN IDIOT."

u only get dumber w/ every post.

as for raising the prices in a developing nations, lots of developing nations get in REALLY BIG ECONOMIC TROUBLE because they subsidize their oil/gas. obviously u think letting a product price float is a huge crime, but u probably will be equally outraged when the gov't has to go cap in hand to the world bank BECAUSE it was subsidizing its oil. then again if u knew more about economics and didnt base all ur economic arguments on "wow the US is really bad and I love chomsky" then maybe ur arguments would be more sane.

[alkemical]

all the countries ur talking about as oppression dont have free markets. they have totalitarian regimes, and while I'm sure u(being a loyal chomskyite) blame the US for literally everything in the world.

OPEC is an anti free market cartel, the diamon traders are warlords, both are pretty much the opposite of free market.



Again, personal attacks. I'm not a "chomskyite" (what-ever that is). I also don't blame the US for everything wrong in the world. (I see you are projecting again, twice in such a short post!)

I know opec is a monopoly - which is why i cited by creating instability in the region you allow other countries in strife to sell oil at a far competitive price (read: cheaper) than opec - since they aren't bound to the same set of rules.

Diamond Traders & Warlords are totally free market. They sell for supply and demand. The "black market" is the most free market in the world.

[yavoon]

Again, personal attacks. I'm not a "chomskyite" (what-ever that is). I also don't blame the US for everything wrong in the world. (I see you are projecting again, twice in such a short post!)

I know opec is a monopoly - which is why i cited by creating instability in the region you allow other countries in strife to sell oil at a far competitive price (read: cheaper) than opec - since they aren't bound to the same set of rules.

Diamond Traders & Warlords are totally free market. They sell for supply and demand. The "black market" is the most free market in the world.

no they are not free market, atleast not in the modern ends understanding of capitalism. maybe in some anarchist interpretation of free market they are, but thats not how any economists view or advocate for free markets.

so again, ur a complete moron and completely wrong on ur interpretation and still can't stop talking about the US.

[alkemical]

I just dont fall for ur constant bait about how bad the US is. I know ur basically a chomskyite and love communist regimes and blame the US for everything so much so that there can't exist a conversation about a topic like this w/o every post of urs saying something about the US.

I explain to u the stupidity of not following the free market and u say "YAH WELL THE US DOES BAD THINGS TO PPL SO UR AN IDIOT."

u only get dumber w/ every post.

as for raising the prices in a developing nations, lots of developing nations get in REALLY BIG ECONOMIC TROUBLE because they subsidize their oil/gas. obviously u think letting a product price float is a huge crime, but u probably will be equally outraged when the gov't has to go cap in hand to the world bank BECAUSE it was subsidizing its oil. then again if u knew more about economics and didnt base all ur economic arguments on "wow the US is really bad and I love chomsky" then maybe ur arguments would be more sane.



Well first off - again more personal attacks. You are really showing your ignorance. Second, if i'm getting dumber with each post - i'd still have to post 50 posts a day, for the next 2000 years to ever be able to reach a level to communicate with you. But since your game is to do nothing but insults, i couldn't expect you to really carry a discussion through in an adult manner.

Well if you'd done some research on the situation in Ecuador, you'd also realize it was an open market before they took a loan from the world bank. (Again, you are showing how lacking you are, and you only project and jump to conclusions).

Next:

I've never stated i hated the US. Infact i think probably everybody here would say it's quite the opposite. Those that really get my POV will understand that i'm a faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar right winger. (Alec was the first one to ever peg that, i'm suprised no-one else picked up on it).

Also i didn't base the comment of economics on the "US being bad". I cited the world bank and it's enforcement policies for developing nations. Yet again you keep projecting this "you are a commie" crap towards me - when there's no basis for it.

Infact, with the new E-Annoyance bills that have been passed. I have the ability to now sue you for slander. Hmmm, maybe i should capitalize on this new found power that i possess.

[yavoon]

Well first off - again more personal attacks. You are really showing your ignorance. Second, if i'm getting dumber with each post - i'd still have to post 50 posts a day, for the next 2000 years to ever be able to reach a level to communicate with you. But since your game is to do nothing but insults, i couldn't expect you to really carry a discussion through in an adult manner.

Well if you'd done some research on the situation in Ecuador, you'd also realize it was an open market before they took a loan from the world bank. (Again, you are showing how lacking you are, and you only project and jump to conclusions).

Next:

I've never stated i hated the US. Infact i think probably everybody here would say it's quite the opposite. Those that really get my POV will understand that i'm a faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar right winger. (Alec was the first one to ever peg that, i'm suprised no-one else picked up on it).

Also i didn't base the comment of economics on the "US being bad". I cited the world bank and it's enforcement policies for developing nations. Yet again you keep projecting this "you are a commie" crap towards me - when there's no basis for it.

Infact, with the new E-Annoyance bills that have been passed. I have the ability to now sue you for slander. Hmmm, maybe i should capitalize on this new found power that i possess.

sue away. ur still trying to lie to get urself out of ur own stupidity. and whine about how I call u a moron after showing u for being one.

u think warlords in africa are free market, completely idiotic.

it seems most ur posts are now aimed at proving through ad hoc means that ur not a moron while I continue to annhilate any real point u make.

as for ur pro capitalist pro US supposed stance, the proof is int he pudding, all u do is spew hatred for the US and defend communist rhetoric. I know its easy to say "but I'm not" but no sane person will be fooled. they see ur actions.

[alkemical]

sue away. ur still trying to lie to get urself out of ur own stupidity. and whine about how I call u a moron after showing u for being one.

u think warlords in africa are free market, completely idiotic.

it seems most ur posts are now aimed at proving through ad hoc means that ur not a moron while I continue to annhilate any real point u make.

as for ur pro capitalist pro US supposed stance, the proof is int he pudding, all u do is spew hatred for the US and defend communist rhetoric. I know its easy to say "but I'm not" but no sane person will be fooled. they see ur actions.

Prove that i'm a communist (which how can i be a communist when i'm paranoid of the expansion of "the state"?). So right there i've already got you on a contradition of your slanderous claims.

As to your claim you prove me wrong on any claim I state. You haven't done so, because you are too busy just flinging personal insults.

Much to your chagrin - no one here thinks i'm a communist nor do they think i'm anti-free market. I'd say most people just know that i demand equality for RULES that apply to the game, and that they are enforced evenly.

If that offends you, and if that's communism - then you really have spent some time in a re-education camp. Which is obvious since you are a self proclaimed fanatical patriot.

LONG LIVE KING GEORGE!

[yavoon]

Prove that i'm a communist (which how can i be a communist when i'm paranoid of the expansion of "the state"?). So right there i've already got you on a contradition of your slanderous claims.

As to your claim you prove me wrong on any claim I state. You haven't done so, because you are too busy just flinging personal insults.

Much to your chagrin - no one here thinks i'm a communist nor do they think i'm anti-free market. I'd say most people just know that i demand equality for RULES that apply to the game, and that they are enforced evenly.

If that offends you, and if that's communism - then you really have spent some time in a re-education camp. Which is obvious since you are a self proclaimed fanatical patriot.

LONG LIVE KING GEORGE!

"Diamond Traders & Warlords are totally free market"

since ur not anti free market, and since u have the deluded and moronic view that warlords represent a free market, I suppose u want every country to be run like africa in a "totally free market" as it were.

u can't even keep ur hypocrisy straight.

[alkemical]

"Diamond Traders & Warlords are totally free market"

since ur not anti free market, and since u have the deluded and moronic view that warlords represent a free market, I suppose u want every country to be run like africa in a "totally free market" as it were.

u can't even keep ur hypocrisy straight.

Well at least i can spell "you" correctly. (honestly, do you really want to nitpick on spelling - afterall you are probably the worst when it comes to use of the english language - or would you continue this petty personal attack?).

I don't want every country to be run like africa - but it seems the world bank and those who profit from deals the world bank has established - want countries to be run like africa. Big difference chief - but since you keep projecting and can't stay on point - i'm sure another personal attack is on it's way.

Again prove i'm a communist - or is that another form of slander you are willing to dish out - yet cry on another thread when someone does the same to you. Tsk Tsk - one shouldn't throw stones if they don't like to be hit by them.

[The Lone Bolt]

We now inturrupt this pissing contest with a personal message from The Lone Bolt:

I like the idea of this website in theory. I'm only concerned that some users may post information that may endanger US troops or post fabricated documents for political reasons.

But the basic idea is very interesting.

[yavoon]

Well at least i can spell "you" correctly. (honestly, do you really want to nitpick on spelling - afterall you are probably the worst when it comes to use of the english language - or would you continue this petty personal attack?).

I don't want every country to be run like africa - but it seems the world bank and those who profit from deals the world bank has established - want countries to be run like africa. Big difference chief - but since you keep projecting and can't stay on point - i'm sure another personal attack is on it's way.

Again prove i'm a communist - or is that another form of slander you are willing to dish out - yet cry on another thread when someone does the same to you. Tsk Tsk - one shouldn't throw stones if they don't like to be hit by them.

I can only prove u say communist things. a person can always call themselves something different.

to end this massive and inane diversion where we get to talk about the world bank, ur complete lack of understanding of economics and ur own personal vendetta against america.

I like the idea of the website, its just the last paragraph that is communist tripe.

[alkemical]

I can only prove u say communist things. a person can always call themselves something different.

to end this massive and inane diversion where we get to talk about the world bank, ur complete lack of understanding of economics and ur own personal vendetta against america.

I like the idea of the website, its just the last paragraph that is communist tripe.



See once again you just lay personal attacks - PROVE to me and this community that i'm a communist. If not you need to cease this - I mean you don't like it when others do this to you, do you:

"I wish u to apologize for lying and misrepresenting my view." - Yavoooon - (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=1435239&postcount=23)


So either prove your baseless claims, or back off. I'm giving you a chance to prove yourself, either that or you will keep looking the fool. Now if you want the same respect, you have to give it.

Until you can prove i'm a communist (which is a contradiction to claiming i'm a paranoid nut who fears the gov't) - Then you need to STFU (as the words of St. Mock).

[alkemical]

We now inturrupt this pissing contest with a personal message from The Lone Bolt:

I like the idea of this website in theory. I'm only concerned that some users may post information that may endanger US troops or post fabricated documents for political reasons.

But the basic idea is very interesting.



I can agree to that - but fabricated documents for political reasons - they have the ABCNNBCBS for

[yavoon]

See once again you just lay personal attacks - PROVE to me and this community that i'm a communist. If not you need to cease this - I mean you don't like it when others do this to you, do you:

"I wish u to apologize for lying and misrepresenting my view." - Yavoooon - (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=1435239&postcount=23)


So either prove your baseless claims, or back off. I'm giving you a chance to prove yourself, either that or you will keep looking the fool. Now if you want the same respect, you have to give it.

Until you can prove i'm a communist (which is a contradiction to claiming i'm a paranoid nut who fears the gov't) - Then you need to STFU (as the words of St. Mock).

u regularly attack capitalism, support communist dogma, support ppl like chomsky who has himself supported many communist regimes.

I can only go by what u say, ur asking me a rather odd question. but I would contend that if u continue to support all the things u support I have to draw my reasonable conclusions.

there are millions of ppl who consider themselves moderate muslims who think u should throw acid women's faces if they are uncovered and that killing jews in restaurants is salutory. they could ask the same thing of me as u do. prove they aren't moderate, I would say to them the same thing, I can only go by what they say.

[alkemical]

u regularly attack capitalism, support communist dogma, support ppl like chomsky who has himself supported many communist regimes.

I can only go by what u say, ur asking me a rather odd question. but I would contend that if u continue to support all the things u support I have to draw my reasonable conclusions.

there are millions of ppl who consider themselves moderate muslims who think u should throw acid women's faces if they are uncovered and that killing jews in restaurants is salutory. they could ask the same thing of me as u do. prove they aren't moderate, I would say to them the same thing, I can only go by what they say.



I've never supported Chomsky, and please provide where i have said i do - or show any comments where i've said i've supported him.

I attack the flaws in the system of captialism. No system is perfect, thus there are flaws.

But if I use your metrics to judge you with:

Yavoon would be an uneducated individual that only has partial knowledge of any subject, due to its incredible lack of command for not only words in the english languange, but their usage and grammer structure overall. Thus being uneducated it's easy to see why someone would openly say they are a fanatical patriot. Thus making any comment about free-markets or freedom suspect, since any information would be coming from a non-objective place making discussion uselss.

Instead when Yavoon gets corned, it uses baseless accusations and projections to slander someone with no proof, other than intent to revert the discussion away from the topic into a personal attack to prevent it from being further "shown up".

Eventually when you break down a point by point instance of all facts and points of discussion, when it knows that you have it pegged on it's fallicies of claims stated - it backs down and changes the subject.

Not comfortable with being subjectated to being proven that it is inferior, is one reason that the personal attacks often are interjected with no recourse for the actual discussion.

In short yavoon is a typical internet troll that tries to subject itself to an ego boost - but often falls short and thrives on the argument instead of the discussion.

There, have a good life you POS.

[yavoon]

I've never supported Chomsky, and please provide where i have said i do - or show any comments where i've said i've supported him.

I attack the flaws in the system of captialism. No system is perfect, thus there are flaws.

But if I use your metrics to judge you with:

Yavoon would be an uneducated individual that only has partial knowledge of any subject, due to its incredible lack of command for not only words in the english languange, but their usage and grammer structure overall. Thus being uneducated it's easy to see why someone would openly say they are a fanatical patriot. Thus making any comment about free-markets or freedom suspect, since any information would be coming from a non-objective place making discussion uselss.

Instead when Yavoon gets corned, it uses baseless accusations and projections to slander someone with no proof, other than intent to revert the discussion away from the topic into a personal attack to prevent it from being further "shown up".

Eventually when you break down a point by point instance of all facts and points of discussion, when it knows that you have it pegged on it's fallicies of claims stated - it backs down and changes the subject.

Not comfortable with being subjectated to being proven that it is inferior, is one reason that the personal attacks often are interjected with no recourse for the actual discussion.

In short yavoon is a typical internet troll that tries to subject itself to an ego boost - but often falls short and thrives on the argument instead of the discussion.

There, have a good life you POS.

I see me seeing through ur ruse has upset u greatly. does have a nice life mean I wont be subjected to ur constant whining rants while I disprove and slam ur simple and pathetic notions.

hey what about those african warlords practicing "totally free market" ideas and ur support of the free market? like I said, u can't even control ur own stupidity. u try to lean one way w/ every thing u ever say and say u r another way by decree.

ppl are not fooled.

[W*GS]

So Wags, by your statement above - it would seem that as long as you have your couch, tv and 3 squares - the rest doesn't matter.

What is the "rest", and, how is it related to the market?

I also notice that you don't want to address that there is bondage under the capitalist system.

What do you mean by "bondage"?

Remember, i am not anti-free market - it's just any system has flaws in it.

There's a big difference between "any system has flaws" and "The bonds and chains of a captialistic society are no different than those of any other system".

[alkemical]

What is the "rest", and, how is it related to the market?

If morales and/or ethics included in how business is conducted, as well as one's personal life do not matter wags - then you haven't found the meaning and measure of dignity. Just because you have a nose for the fine things wags, doesn't mean you still don't smell like sh*t. (Not directed at "you" as in "you, wags" but a "collective" you as in an motto/saying.)



What do you mean by "bondage"?


Bondage (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bondage)


There's a big difference between "any system has flaws" and "The bonds and chains of a captialistic society are no different than those of any other system".

But this is true, is it not wags? Is there not exploitation and poor working conditions by our "free market" companies? Just because oppression and degradation occur at the boot of a logo, or at the will of the state - doesn't make one more palatable over the other IMO.

[W*GS]

If morales and/or ethics included in how business is conducted, as well as one's personal life do not matter wags - then you haven't found the meaning and measure of dignity.

I see. Because people make choices you find undignified, there's something wrong with the entire system?

Bondage (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bondage)

Let's see:

1. slavery or involuntary servitude; serfdom.

Nope, doesn't apply.

2. the state of being bound by or subjected to some external power or control.

That's a little vague - would "external power" include things like "having to change a diaper", and would "control" include things like "familial obligations"?

3. the state or practice of being physically restrained, as by being tied up, chained, or put in handcuffs, for sexual gratification.

No comment.

4. Early English Law. personal subjection to the control of a superior; villeinage.

Not quite, either.

So what do you mean when you say there is "bondage under the capitalist system."?

But this is true, is it not wags? Is there not exploitation and poor working conditions by our "free market" companies? Just because oppression and degradation occur at the boot of a logo, or at the will of the state - doesn't make one more palatable over the other IMO.

The big difference is that those subjected to "exploitation", "oppression" and "degradation" do so out of their choices - and are free to change those choices at any time.

Don't bother trotting out the old "sell yourself into slavery" nonsense.

[alkemical]

I see. Because people make choices you find undignified, there's something wrong with the entire system?

No, not really. I find selling yourself "out" highly distasteful - but then we are all whores to something, aren't we? My problem with the flaws in capitalism is that often times the buck overrides doing things for the right reason(s). (as in price gouging, etc).


Bondage (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bondage)

Let's see:

1. slavery or involuntary servitude; serfdom.

Nope, doesn't apply.

2. the state of being bound by or subjected to some external power or control.

That's a little vague - would "external power" include things like "having to change a diaper", and would "control" include things like "familial obligations"?

3. the state or practice of being physically restrained, as by being tied up, chained, or put in handcuffs, for sexual gratification.

No comment.

4. Early English Law. personal subjection to the control of a superior; villeinage.

Not quite, either.

So what do you mean when you say there is "bondage under the capitalist system."?



1. I more or less have to pay taxes, and in some cases - are not able to protest to the tax in terms of refusal to pay it. Thus involuntary, and if i refuse to pay certain taxes i'm punished. Conditions that do meet some areas of serf-dom. This would be an allegorical allusion wags. You are bright, althought i'm sure literature rather bores you ole' chap.

2. The state would be an external 'entity' and would exert control upon you wags. Nice try for a deflection, but stay on point.

3. You don't find being setup like the "gimp" in pulp fiction as applicable to what the state does? (land grab, taxes, etc). This would be allegorical for those of you who aren't fond of prose.

4. Being subjected to control by the superior - that's still able to be applied - just that it's not "olde english law", it's just an everyday occurance.



The big difference is that those subjected to "exploitation", "oppression" and "degradation" do so out of their choices - and are free to change those choices at any time.

Don't bother trotting out the old "sell yourself into slavery" nonsense.


Oh last i heard wags, 7 year olds sewing nike shoes don't get much choice to change careers.

Oh and for selling yourself into slavery - lots of people do but that's a choice they made - and for them i have no care for them. But being as it were and as it is - to live "the american dream" does require some bondage to how "things work around here". Some are choices, i will agree to that. But even you do understand the shennanigans that financial institutions use, and how as much science is in economics, is an equal part of smoke and mirrors.