Our Worst Offensive Line in 15 Years

[-Slap-]

Back in 1991 and '92, the hostility between Dan Reeves and John Elway had spilled over to the point where it literally seemed like Reeves was trying to purposely surround Elway with garbage.

In 1991, Jeff Davidson and Daryl Hamilton split time at left tackle and Crawford Ker was starting at right guard.

In 1992, Russell Freeman took over at left tackle and Davidson moved over to left guard.

I never thought we could possibly look that bad ever again, but I was wrong. I wish I could pin it all on Foster, but mind-numbingly horrible as he has been, he's far from the only problem.

Our inability to move anybody at the goalline has been a chronic problem and it will never change as long as we have such undersized and unathletic linemen. We desperately need a dominating physical presence up front.

We blew a first rounder on Foster looking for that guy, but that just means our need for a true buttkicker up front is that much more glaring now. I think we need to use at least one Day One pick on an offensive lineman, or take a strong run at Eric Steinbach in free agency.

[broncobum6162]

We've been owned all day long

[Jesterhole]

Losing Lepsis hurt badly. Pears is filling in nicely, but he could be filling in for Foster instead. In any case, Foster won't be back next season after today.

Nalen has another couple of years in him, and I think our guards are solid. Just need to get another stud tackle and I think we'll be OK.

[dsmoot]

Losing Lepsis hurt badly. Pears is filling in nicely, but he could be filling in for Foster instead. In any case, Foster won't be back next season after today.

Nalen has another couple of years in him, and I think our guards are solid. Just need to get another stud tackle and I think we'll be OK.


If this is your assessment of our offensive line, YOU ARE LOST. I have been harping on the real REGRESSION in their performance for the last two years. The situation needs to be addressed in this offseason.

[footstepsfrom#27]

The top 3 picks in this draft should all be O-line guys over 330 pounds.

[Killericon]

Run Blocking is Top 10.

Pass Protection...Well...The Raiders' O-line is looking mighty impressive by comparison.

[bpc]

Losing Lepsis hurt, I think Nalen is a shell of his former self in the run game. Hamilton will be better at center but is a technician who is only average at guard. I don't mind keeping those guys.

Cooper and Foster combine to form one of the worst sides of an OLine in the NFL.

I think Kuper can help us out at RG... Cooper will be out the door because of his contract.

[Jetmeck]

Obviously some lack of talent is the problem. ALEX GIBBS
IS NEEDED TO CHEW THEIR ASS OUT.

[bendog]

Taking foster over kwame harris comes back to bite.

[Jetmeck]

Kid looks ok. O-line looking better, somebody ripped them a new one at halftime.......they deserved it.

[-Slap-]

The line sabotages another drive with their inability to pick up the blitz.

[bendog]

Seriously, Harris or Foster, or are they both stiffs?

[-Slap-]

Seriously, Harris or Foster, or are they both stiffs?

Harris sucks like an asthmatic with a faulty inhaler.

Foster sucks like a gaping chest wound.

[bendog]

Foster could maybe play guard, but whoever projected him at LT, let alone RT, was not scouting very good. Carlisle probably has faster feet.

[-Slap-]

If Foster has any future in the NFL, its not in Denver. For him to come back from his benching even worse than he was before, tells us all we need to know about the guy.

[BroncoInferno]

I don't think it's as drastic as it appears. Lepsis comes back, Pears looked solid enough to trust at RT, put that hoss Kuper in at RG, sign Steinbach for LG, move Hamilton to center. Of course, such clear logic never plays out in the ofseason.

[Meck77]

Tough season all the way around.....

[Kaylore]

If Foster has any future in the NFL, its not in Denver. For him to come back from his benching even worse than he was before, tells us all we need to know about the guy.

This one's on Shanahan. Last game I was screaming "Foster is going to get Cutler hurt!" After what was perhaps the worst game he's had all season, Shanahan decides it's ok and he can start anyway. Low and behold our QB is leaving the game with concussion on a sack that Foster gave up. Even after all that Shanahan still left Foster in. Thanks a lot, Shanahan for almost killing our future by letting the worst Tackle in the league stay in the game.

And I agree with Meck. Too many injuries and too many holes. I'm just grateful we get decent draft positioning this way and don't get embarrassed in the playoffs which is what we were facing had we won.

[HEAV]

I say it every off-season. "It's time to spend money on the O-line" Forget the street FA and late round draft picks.

Need a guard with a mean streak.

Foster could be a guard, but he hasn't the killer attitude required to play in the NFL.

[SoCalBronco]

I think Kuper will unseat Carlisle next year, Pears will be even better at RT then LT, and with Lepsis back we should be solid there.

[x123z]

We almost lost more than the ball game today.

[-Slap-]

Why don't we try and draft a guy better than all of them?

[ScottXray]

I think Kuper will unseat Carlisle next year, Pears will be even better at RT then LT, and with Lepsis back we should be solid there.

I HOPE you are right. Nails is getting old and is not getting any push, Lepsis is no sure bet to come back 100%, and we now need a POCKET for our QB to set up in...which none of our starters have shown any ability to do well. Hope our reserves can step up next year.

Time to scrap the light, fast, BS and get with most of the NFL....get something that can MOVE a pile and CREATE a hole.

We need new lines on BOTH sides of the ball, a good RB that punishes tacklers,and a Safety that can cover.
How many draft choices do we get for being out of the playoffs ? Zero...darn it!
:strong:

[FloridaResident]

we serioulsny need to draft guy like Joe Thomas From Wisconsin, Jake Long from Michigan, and justin Blalock from Texas

[-Slap-]

I want to dump the 290 pound cut blocking 6th rounder crap so badly. We're like little porcelain mice inside the five yard line.

[DeusExManning]

This one's on Shanahan. Last game I was screaming "Foster is going to get Cutler hurt!" After what was perhaps the worst game he's had all season, Shanahan decides it's ok and he can start anyway. Low and behold our QB is leaving the game with concussion on a sack that Foster gave up. Even after all that Shanahan still left Foster in. Thanks a lot, Shanahan for almost killing our future by letting the worst Tackle in the league stay in the game.

And I agree with Meck. Too many injuries and too many holes. I'm just grateful we get decent draft positioning this way and don't get embarrassed in the playoffs which is what we were facing had we won.

Meadows must have been hurt.

[Sassy]

jay was running for his life all day long.

[dsmoot]

Kid looks ok. O-line looking better, somebody ripped them a new one at halftime.......they deserved it.

30 minutes of good play doesn't win games. They did not have a dominant game for 60 minutes against anyone this year.

[OrangeShadow]

the running game worked fine with portis. id try and give washington a 2nd rounder.

[dsmoot]

I don't think it's as drastic as it appears. Lepsis comes back, Pears looked solid enough to trust at RT, put that hoss Kuper in at RG, sign Steinbach for LG, move Hamilton to center. Of course, such clear logic never plays out in the ofseason.

Get Real. What is our goal? A dominant running game that wins Superbowls. How do you do that? COMPARE.

Jones Foster
Schlereth Cooper
Nalen Nalen (not young)
Neil Hamilton
Zimmerman Lepsis/Pears

We are not even close to the capability of this lineup.

[bendog]

I want to dump the 290 pound cut blocking 6th rounder crap so badly. We're like little porcelain mice inside the five yard line.

bingo. And that's the real problem. Foster may be ok at 295, but they've got him at 320plus to be a roadgrater ... but he CAN'T FRIGGING MOVE TO PASS BLOCK. Green Bay had an undersized line in the 60s. But this cut blocking thing isn't working cause they won't make up their minds. Hamilton at center. Clabo at LG. Carlisle at RG. IF they want to run right with no pass blocking there ... ok. they did that with Lepsis when he was big, but you gotta give help in 3rd and long.

Lepsis getting hurt was the end of this season ... though it was set in stone last draft. cutler was worth it though

[BroncoInferno]

Get Real. What is our goal? A dominant running game that wins Superbowls. How do you do that? COMPARE.

Jones Foster
Schlereth Cooper
Nalen Nalen (not young)
Neil Hamilton
Zimmerman Lepsis/Pears

We are not even close to the capability of this lineup.

Well, hell, who is?

[-Slap-]

We have to identify a talented, but sort of disgruntled, veteran OT we can trade for, like T-Bone.

[broncolife]

We have to identify a talented, but sort of disgruntled, veteran OT we can trade for, like T-Bone.

Didnt we trade for Gary zimmerman too?

[-Slap-]

Didnt we trade for Gary zimmerman too?

Yep. The much maligned Wade Phillips/Bob Ferguson tandem brought in Zim.

[Atlas]

Nalen has another couple of years in him, and I think our guards are solid. Just need to get another stud tackle and I think we'll be OK.
Carlisle has been really bad the last couple of weeks. I don't think he'll be back. I heard Kubiak was going to sign him.

[Atlas]

Yep. The much maligned Wade Phillips/Bob Ferguson tandem brought in Zim.

That almost makes up for giving a 1st round draft pick for Mike Pritchard. WHo went to CU, loved the Broncos and was due to be a FA the next season.

[elsid13]

My question on the oline is when did we go away from the zone blocking scheme. I saw a lot more of traps and straight up man blocking yesterday then the stretch play and zone blocking.

Plus running the ball only 4 times in the second half is play calling disaster

[WoodMan]

I couldn't watch the game yesterday. I did read the complete play by play on NFL.com though, and what jumped out at me was all the times we got stuffed on short yardage. Sounds like Jay saw alot of pressure yesterday as well. No question that this team needs some major changes. Hopefully Eslinger or Kuper will move up next year. I might as well wish and have both move onto the starting line.

[bloodsunday]

Man you guys are so over reactive. I said two years ago when I first joined the board this same thing. I pointed out the Eagles and how they built their team from the line of scrimmage out -- on both sides of the ball. I was met with much criticism and people continually pointed out how we were near the top of the league in rushing -- just like we were this year.

The reality is that losing Lepsis hurt. But so does the lack of an every down NFL caliber back. Scrapping the whole system is a bit drastic. Get healthy, get a good/elite back, and add on or two more tackles.

[Taco John]

Losing Lepsis hurt badly. Pears is filling in nicely, but he could be filling in for Foster instead. In any case, Foster won't be back next season after today.



Pears is not filling in nicely. He's looking like he's competing with George for worst lineman on the team.

[BroncoInferno]

Are there any good tackles available in FA? I'd rather not have to use an early draft pick there. I want us concentrating on D.

[dsmoot]

Man you guys are so over reactive. I said two years ago when I first joined the board this same thing. I pointed out the Eagles and how they built their team from the line of scrimmage out -- on both sides of the ball. I was met with much criticism and people continually pointed out how we were near the top of the league in rushing -- just like we were this year.

The reality is that losing Lepsis hurt. But so does the lack of an every down NFL caliber back. Scrapping the whole system is a bit drastic. Get healthy, get a good/elite back, and add on or two more tackles.

You are exactly right. Great teams are created from the trenches outward. They are the foundation of your team. Your speed, skill players cannot perform to their capabilities unless they are given the opportunities. I.E. - time to throw, holes being opened and defensive turnovers as a result of QB pressure. Our foundation has some severe cracks in it. Most people on this site think that we get rid of a guy and insert some unproven young lineman then all our cracks go away.

Earlier in this thread, I made a comparison to the present OL to the SB linemen. I made that comparison to show how far we are from that capability. I believe that Denver would never would have won a Superbowl if the team had not put that talent together. We could run inside the 20 with those undersized guys but there was a drastic talent difference compared to today. It was wonderful to see TD run downhill and watch those guys manhandle those big Packer DLinemen along with other teams. The next year, those OL were even more dominant to a point many games were over by halftime. You win football games with those OL and DL players.

If you go back and look at GB's 60's teams as someone stated earlier - they were not undersized for their time. Jerry Kramer was a huge, very quick guard for his time. Forrest Gregg and Fuzzy Thurston were not small either.

[dbfan21]

I say it every off-season. "It's time to spend money on the O-line" Forget the street FA and late round draft picks.

Need a guard with a mean streak.

Foster could be a guard, but he hasn't the killer attitude required to play in the NFL.

No kidding. Foster reminds me of your typical "fat kid" in high school. Pigeon toed, saggy pants, big belly...I can't stand the mini-temper tantrums he throws on the field when he gets beat for a sack. I'm thinking, "George - if you don't like it, then do something about it!"

Fat slob.

[fontaine]

Our line has been poor this season.

Right now we have three technicians on the inside in Coop/Hamilton/Nalen. None of these guys are true maulers.

If you go down that route then you better have stud bookend Tackles that can seal off the edge and lock down in pass protection. Lepsis is the kind of guy, Foster not really. So I don't necessarily agree with the school of thought that we need to get bigger across the board to get better. We just need to make sure that if we go three light inside then our outside guys better be legit.

Pears has played extremely well for an undrafted practice squad type but he can't do what Lepsis did. Foster shouldn't have been playing.

I don't think our guys necessarily suck, but we do need to find a better mix of players on the outside especially at RT. I don't think you get Center's that are maulers. Maybe at RG with Kuper but expecting him to do that is a bit much IMO.

[Atlas]

Earlier in this thread, I made a comparison to the present OL to the SB linemen. I made that comparison to show how far we are from that capability. I believe that Denver would never would have won a Superbowl if the team had not put that talent together. We could run inside the 20 with those undersized guys but there was a drastic talent difference compared to today. It was wonderful to see TD run downhill and watch those guys manhandle those big Packer DLinemen along with other teams. The next year, those OL were even more dominant to a point many games were over by halftime. You win football games with those OL and DL players.
.

What superbowl OL are you talking about?

Are you talking about the one that had Neil and Jones at Guard and tackle or you talking avout the one that had Habib and Swayne at guard and tackle. There is a difference.

[watermock]

Let's just admit it...Nails is winding down, our tackles right now are beyond pathetic, and Hamilton as our best guard is amusing. Your wondering why we can't pound the ball in with an undrafted RB?

It's almost a blessing in disguise after Jay got his head bounced off the turf. I was on a 11 on a scale of 10 on that play. Can he have two freakin' seconds George? Again...what happened to the shotgun...what happened to the roll out?

We can't move the pile at the goal line! WTF is wrong with these morons?

SF was putting 9 in the box and we don't roll out? The best strategy is to get as far away from our OL as possible.

I can't really talk football yet. I'm still bummed out. I'm trying hard but it aint workin'.

[fontaine]

I can't really talk football yet. I'm still bummed out. I'm trying hard but it aint workin'.


Between Plummer choking, DL/ST this season has been a bit of a train wreck.

But every time I get despondant, I just have to look over at the redskins who spent around $22 million in guaranteed, cap kicking money to Randle El (career low in catches/yards), Archuleta (benched for the last 7 games, is only playing STs and is now saying the coaches LIED to him), Carter who notched up the same amount of sacks as Lang, and of course TJ Duckett who they got for a 3rd and 4th and has all of two carries for the season with Portis on IR.

And oh yeah, they have what? Three draft picks?

:rofl:

[-Slap-]

Ironically, once Washington gets done signing free agents this summer, they'll again be the trendy pick to win the NFC East next year.

[fontaine]

Ironically, once Washington gets done signing free agents this summer, they'll again be the trendy pick to win the NFC East next year.

Is that after or before Shanahan and co take advantage of them yet again with some draft/player trade?

I'm still trying to understand how in the hell do you end up giving up a 3rd and 4th round pick for a RB who ends up carrying the ball twice in a season even after your starter goes on IR? Especially considering Duckett was a known bust and is a FA now!

[Dead Head]

We need to woo Alex Gibbs back to work with the line. Whether we have a light or heavy line he's proven all too often he can make it happen and he and Bobby Turner know how to work well together. Foster doesn't have the heart to play full time in this or any type of scheme he needs to go!

[Rock Chalk]

Back in 1991 and '92, the hostility between Dan Reeves and John Elway had spilled over to the point where it literally seemed like Reeves was trying to purposely surround Elway with garbage.

In 1991, Jeff Davidson and Daryl Hamilton split time at left tackle and Crawford Ker was starting at right guard.

In 1992, Russell Freeman took over at left tackle and Davidson moved over to left guard.

I never thought we could possibly look that bad ever again, but I was wrong. I wish I could pin it all on Foster, but mind-numbingly horrible as he has been, he's far from the only problem.

Our inability to move anybody at the goalline has been a chronic problem and it will never change as long as we have such undersized and unathletic linemen. We desperately need a dominating physical presence up front.

We blew a first rounder on Foster looking for that guy, but that just means our need for a true buttkicker up front is that much more glaring now. I think we need to use at least one Day One pick on an offensive lineman, or take a strong run at Eric Steinbach in free agency.

I thought it was all Plummers fault?

Looks like cutler had trouble with little pass protection too.

And a defense that continues to fold when it matters most.

[Garcia Bronco]

Part of the problem is Jay's inability to recognize the blitzer...and that just takes time.

[bendog]

I always thought crawford ker reminded me of graham kerr.

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/07/15/Floridian/A_wing_and_a_player.shtml

[Garcia Bronco]

We need to woo Alex Gibbs back to work with the line. Whether we have a light or heavy line he's proven all too often he can make it happen and he and Bobby Turner know how to work well together. Foster doesn't have the heart to play full time in this or any type of scheme he needs to go!

with a coaching change in Atlanta...this might be possible.

[mhgaffney]

San Francisco's strategy was obvious from the first play: knock out Cutler -- and they did just that. You simply cannot allow your quarterback to take those kind of hits. Cutler did not recover until late in the game.

The other persistent issue is Denver's inability to respond defensively. Coyer needs someone in the booth who can diagnose what is happening in the first half -- so Denver can make the necessary changes on defense. We have been mediocre in the second half all season.

Hopefully the problems with the offensive line -- and pass rush -- can be fixed in the off season.

[-Slap-]

I thought it was all Plummers fault?

Looks like cutler had trouble with little pass protection too.

And a defense that continues to fold when it matters most.

Man, you're a dumb sonofabitch.

[Rascal]

Hopefully Lepsis can come back at LT. Believe it or not after him I like Carlisle the most.

Hopefully Kuper can be a stud at LG once Hamilton moves to center. We need a RT though.

[Broncos4tw]

The days of the smaller line are done. Especially on defense. If we want to continue to finesse with the offensive line, performing cheap cut blocks to further our gains, I guess. I'd rather they tore up both lines however, and rebuilt them with some power. Sometimes you have to have power to get the job done, and we don't have the horses to do it. When it comes down to a physical battle, we lose going out of the gate.

I doubt we'll be able to replace the lines immediately, but over a few years, I could see them transforming into a stronger, more physical line. We really need to get in line with what the rest of the NFL does in regards to rushing a passer, and opening holes for our runners.

[bendog]

Hopefully Lepsis can come back at LT. Believe it or not after him I like Carlisle the most.

Hopefully Kuper can be a stud at LG once Hamilton moves to center. We need a RT though.

I agree. Nalen and Hamilton are killing us. we get no push on run, and the bull rush by a competent DT requires a double team.

I'm of mixed thinking on Foster. He absolutely sucks in pass protection, but he has made some good blocks on running plays ... mainly towards the beginning of the season. He seems way too big, but I question whether he has any real pass ability. When they drafted him, I said "who." When I first saw that duck walk of his, with his knees pointing in, I said "no way can he move." But Shanny keeps waxing on about his athleticism. I'll say this much, with that gait he's showing athleticism to even get to a outside linebacker, let alone block him.

Maybe, just maybe, he can play at 295, but it seems more likely that he's the second coming of Victor Riley and whoever scouted him as a one pick needs counseling. Wasn't he the last of shanny's decisions before Sundquist?

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

We need to woo Alex Gibbs back to work with the line. Whether we have a light or heavy line he's proven all too often he can make it happen and he and Bobby Turner know how to work well together. Foster doesn't have the heart to play full time in this or any type of scheme he needs to go!

Ain't gonna happen. Remember, he was part of the issue when his kid got fired at mid season.

[elsid13]

The days of the smaller line are done. Especially on defense. If we want to continue to finesse with the offensive line, performing cheap cut blocks to further our gains, I guess. I'd rather they tore up both lines however, and rebuilt them with some power. Sometimes you have to have power to get the job done, and we don't have the horses to do it. When it comes down to a physical battle, we lose going out of the gate.

I doubt we'll be able to replace the lines immediately, but over a few years, I could see them transforming into a stronger, more physical line. We really need to get in line with what the rest of the NFL does in regards to rushing a passer, and opening holes for our runners.

I don't buy the small line thing. It not like the guys are 270 and everyone else is 340. Most of the players on the line are about 295 to 310, that freaking big. The problem has been lack of concentration and mental mistake more then anything, plus injuries to the line. Losing Lepsis had domino effect on the line that we as fan don't appreicated.

And zone blocking does work and is why more teams are actually going toward it. Beside rather have guy in shape then the fat bastards that just lean on folk that most guys have.

[jsco70]

Foster must go. He singlehandidly killed a couple of drives against SF. Let alone almost got Culter knocked out on the sack. However, I believe RT is set with Pears and Meadows.

My concern is Lepsis who will be 33 coming off a signifcant knee injury. There are no guarantees he will be back playing at the same level in 2007. Granted he has come back before from an ACL but that was 10 years ago. Denver has to draft a left tackle this season in my opinion.

[bendog]

I don't buy the small line thing. It not like the guys are 270 and everyone else is 340. Most of the players on the line are about 295 to 310, that freaking big. The problem has been lack of concentration and mental mistake more then anything, plus injuries to the line. Losing Lepsis had domino effect on the line that we as fan don't appreicated.

And zone blocking does work and is why more teams are actually going toward it. Beside rather have guy in shape then the fat bastards that just lean on folk that most guys have.

agreed. But nalen and hamilton are giving away too much. Neither is close to 290.

[fontaine]

The days of the smaller line are done. Especially on defense. If we want to continue to finesse with the offensive line, performing cheap cut blocks to further our gains, I guess. I'd rather they tore up both lines however, and rebuilt them with some power. Sometimes you have to have power to get the job done, and we don't have the horses to do it. When it comes down to a physical battle, we lose going out of the gate.

I doubt we'll be able to replace the lines immediately, but over a few years, I could see them transforming into a stronger, more physical line. We really need to get in line with what the rest of the NFL does in regards to rushing a passer, and opening holes for our runners.

There is nothing wrong with our zone blocking schemes. As a matter of fact more and more teams are using it like GB who just rattled off a 1000 yards season with Green and two rookie Guards, Redskins who rattled off a 1000 yard season with Ladell Betts, etc etc.

The problem is and will always be personnel. What's the point in saying "let's go big" along the OL when our biggest OL is also our biggest turd?

And the smallest guy is wrapping an all pro career that is at least is worthy to be nominated to the Hall of fame in Nalen.

It's the players, not the damn scheme.

The problem is the more athletic, stronger, bigger guys that would kick azz in our system (guys like Steinbech, Snee, etc) are gone by the end of the 3rd round so we're stuck with smaller versions of those athletic guys.

If you're going to do that then you better be damn sure you've got the horses at RB to kick it in gear. Between the Bells we simply didn't have the consistency at RB. Just when Tatum began to establish himself (he was what leading the league in yards at one stage?) he got sidelined with injuries.

[elsid13]

Ain't gonna happen. Remember, he was part of the issue when his kid got fired at mid season.

Gibbs is more of a consult the days any way. He did go work with Kubes down in Houston, so feelings might not be that bad. Plus it amazing what money will do.

Like I said before I think that we need a new line coach, because Dennison doesn't seem to able focus on being OC and the line coach. I think that line coach in Atlanta might become available after the Mora firing.

[Atwater His Ass]

What happened with the idea of moving Foster to guard? I think he might have some potential there, but has his poor play this season ended his time here?

I wonder if something like

Pears/Meadows
Kuper
Hamilton/Eslinger
Foster
Lepsis

might work out and then draft a tackle and have him compete. This gives us some flexibility as well with Foster being able to move out to tackle and Hamilton to guard in case of injuries.

[RocBronc]

I don't mean to toot my own horn but I posted after one of the first games this year that even though we won the game, I was very concerned about the performance of our OL. If I remember correctly, I got quite a bit of criticism for my comments... after all we won the game. My reply was well I don't want to be a wildcard team that get's knocked out in the first round, (which is basically what we turned out to be) I want a real Super Bowl contender.

Not a bad assessment I guess...

[Atwater His Ass]

I don't mean to toot my own horn but I posted after one of the first games this year that even though we won the game, I was very concerned about the performance of our OL. If I remember correctly, I got quite a bit of criticism for my comments... after all we won the game. My reply was well I don't want to be a wildcard team that get's knocked out in the first round, (which is basically what we turned out to be) I want a real Super Bowl contender.

Not a bad assessment I guess...

So instead of calling everyone out, why don't you use your great football mind and give us your proposed solution to the OL problem? It's really not fair to be critical of something but then sit back, pat yourself on the back, and not give a solution to the problem.

[Kaylore]

we need to reinforce our tackles and then go from there. Lepsis coming back will help, and he'll also be stronger and rested which will be nice. I'd like to resign Carlisle and move him over the left guard, bring up Kuper and then try and bring some help in for the right side.

[Rascal]

Next to finding a RT, signing Carlisle is an absolute must for the offense.

I'd like to get Daniel Graham as well, but that's pushing it.

[RocBronc]

So instead of calling everyone out, why don't you use your great football mind and give us your proposed solution to the OL problem? It's really not fair to be critical of something but then sit back, pat yourself on the back, and not give a solution to the problem.

A little touchy aren't we???

I don't see the Broncos enough or have the time to analyze individual performances (I live over 1000 miles from Denver and don't have cable) but I want to see a plan by Shanny to improve the OL this offseason. Generally, I think both of our lines are our weakpoints on this team and need improvement.

[Atwater His Ass]

A little touchy aren't we???

I don't see the Broncos enough or have the time to analyze individual performances (I live over 1000 miles from Denver and don't have cable) but I want to see a plan by Shanny to improve the OL this offseason. Generally, I think both of our lines are our weakpoints on this team and need improvement.

So by your own admission, you don't see Denver enough to make a valid conclusion. Ok.

Regardless, no one is going to argue that both lines need improvement, we all know that. Just re-stating that doesn't really add to the conversion in any meaningful way, other than breaking your arm trying to pat your own back because you made a stab in the dark on the one game you saw all year.

Look, I don't have anything against you personally, but I just get tired of reading posts where people come in and restate the obvious or complain about something and than don't bother to give a potential solution.

[BroncoBuff]

Hamilton will be better at center but is a technician who is only average at guard.

Everybody has a right to their opinion .... how about this one: Adam Schefter listed Ben Hamilton as one of his Top 10 AFC Pro Bowl snubs this year (with Tom Brady, etc...)

And what was our average yards per carry this year? I'll bet above Top 10 or at least above the middle. And remember Slap, you hate RBBC. So if we were Top 10 in avg-per-carry in the league - like I'm guessing we were - then isn't all this a bit overstated?

Biggest prollem on offense was all the new faces. Add to that losing our best lineman and a protracted mid-season QB controversy and change, and there's your offensive season down the toilet. Sure, I hate that it's so tough to punch the ball in down close .... but to be honest, it seemed tough across the league this year imo.

[elsid13]

Next to finding a RT, signing Carlisle is an absolute must for the offense.

I'd like to get Daniel Graham as well, but that's pushing it.

I think Cooper Carlise is already gone. Shanahan and front office already have two replacement for Myers and Kuper. It will be one of those two that wins the position next year.

[BroncoBuff]

Okay .... I did NOT know this ahead of the last post, but we were #9 in apc this year:

http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/892/rushtg2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


I'm not trying to pee on your thread, Slap, I just think these 6 new starters (incl QB) need time to gel before we start stripping the roster. Is Nalen or Carlisle your biggest offender? (not countinmg Foster obv)

And what kinda cap room do we save if we just cut Foster loose now?

[elsid13]

Next to finding a RT, signing Carlisle is an absolute must for the offense.

I'd like to get Daniel Graham as well, but that's pushing it.

I think Cooper Carlise is already gone. Shanahan and front office already have two replacement for him- Myers and Kuper. It will be one of those two that wins the position next year.

[Atwater His Ass]

I think Cooper Carlise is already gone. Shanahan and front office already have two replacement for him- Myers and Kuper. It will be one of those two that wins the position next year.

I agree with this. Someone from the guard position will have to go and I think it would be wiser to stick with the younger guys with a higher upside. We currently seem to have a lot of players that can play guard and if we keep Nalen that leaves Hamilton over there and if we move Foster that is just one more body at an already crowded position.

[RocBronc]

So by your own admission, you don't see Denver enough to make a valid conclusion. Ok.

Regardless, no one is going to argue that both lines need improvement, we all know that. Just re-stating that doesn't really add to the conversion in any meaningful way, other than breaking your arm trying to pat your own back because you made a stab in the dark on the one game you saw all year.

Look, I don't have anything against you personally, but I just get tired of reading posts where people come in and restate the obvious or complain about something and than don't bother to give a potential solution.

No, I don't see Denver enough to assess which of the 5 members of the OL are the problem and need to be replaced but I did see enough to make an observation after seeing a game early on in the year (I believe it was against NE) that the OL was a problem that was going to come back to bite us. After being poo pooed over my analysis, I'm sorry if I took a little pleasure in being proven right over the course of the season. Believe it or not, I'm not an egomaniac... Notice that I was honest enough to admit that I didn't have all the answers, I just wanted to see Shanahan, et al make some serious changes to the OL this offseason.

[bendog]

A little touchy aren't we???

I don't see the Broncos enough or have the time to analyze individual performances (I live over 1000 miles from Denver and don't have cable) but I want to see a plan by Shanny to improve the OL this offseason. Generally, I think both of our lines are our weakpoints on this team and need improvement.

Problem was you came in as restated an obvious "den's online is a weakness" that everyone has known for 3 years on the day AFTER Tatum rushed for 130 or something and they gave up NO sacks, so yeah other people (not me) did call you out, so then you admitted you don't watch the games. No offense, but jeeze, don't ack precient or something.

[-Slap-]

I always thought crawford ker reminded me of graham kerr.

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/07/15/Floridian/A_wing_and_a_player.shtml

I wonder how many people here remember that guy.

[-Slap-]

And what was our average yards per carry this year? I'll bet above Top 10 or at least above the middle. And remember Slap, you hate RBBC. So if we were Top 10 in avg-per-carry in the league - like I'm guessing we were - then isn't all this a bit overstated?

We can run like hell, unless we really have to do it.

When its first and goal at the one and the 49ers knock our entire line ass over tea kettle on three straight downs, I really don't care what our ypc is on the year.

We're terrible at the goalline and our pass blocking is below average, too. All-Schefter Hamilton got ragdolled by bull rushers all season.

[Cito Pelon]

Okay .... I did NOT know this ahead of the last post, but we were #9 in apc this year:

http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/892/rushtg2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


I'm not trying to pee on your thread, Slap, I just think these 6 new starters (incl QB) need time to gel before we start stripping the roster. Is Nalen or Carlisle your biggest offender? (not countinmg Foster obv)

And what kinda cap room do we save if we just cut Foster loose now?

Tough to put a finger on why the team struggles to get Titles, whether it's Division, Conference, or League. It would be nice to see some more Title banners flying at Mile High.

[elsid13]

We had 24 fumbles??? Wow I didn't think it was that much

[longtimer]

I want to dump the 290 pound cut blocking 6th rounder crap so badly. We're like little porcelain mice inside the five yard line.

Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:thumbs: :thumbs:

[Atwater His Ass]

Tough to put a finger on why the team struggles to get Titles, whether it's Division, Conference, or League. It would be nice to see some more Title banners flying at Mile High.

Because as already stated, we can't run when it counts. I would bet if you broke down that #9 ypc, that most of our yards come from outside the 20's. And when you look at it inside the 20's and on obvious run situations such as 3rd and less than 3, we rank pretty damn low.

We also kicked more field goals (20) from 1-39 yards (aka redzone area) than any season since 1997. And keep in mind we scored 472 points that year, so our opportunities were a lot higher, which makes those 20 FGs this year look even worse.

In fact, if you look, you'll see Elams FGs from 20-29 yards increase from 1998 to the present. It looks something like this:

1998 - 3
1999 - 8
2000 - 7
2001 - 11
2002 - 9
2003 - 11
2004 - 10
2005 - 10
2006 - 10

I think that is an interesting indicator of our red zone OL. Just something to think about.

[zdoor]

Whoever said Lepsis will be stronger when he comes back is being REAL optimistic. He's been rehabbing a knee, probably working his lower body with minimal weight, which is the biggest source of a linemans power. He'll likely be weaker earlier in the year from that alone. And microfracture plus the ACL is serious stuff. I'd love to see him back at full strength but the odds aren't on his side...

[Atwater His Ass]

Whoever said Lepsis will be stronger when he comes back is being REAL optimistic. He's been rehabbing a knee, probably working his lower body with minimal weight, which is the biggest source of a linemans power. He'll likely be weaker earlier in the year from that alone. And microfracture plus the ACL is serious stuff. I'd love to see him back at full strength but the odds aren't on his side...

Yes, we definately need help at the OT position. Badly.

Even if Lepsis comes back (which I hope he does) how many more seasons does he have? 3? 4? Less?

[phisig150]

Harris sucks like an asthmatic with a faulty inhaler.

Foster sucks like a gaping chest wound.

That as to go down as both one the best, harshest, and funniest qoutes I've ever readon this board.Wish I could give you some gay ass broncos freak rep points or whatever that crap is called.

[fontaine]

Whoever said Lepsis will be stronger when he comes back is being REAL optimistic. He's been rehabbing a knee, probably working his lower body with minimal weight, which is the biggest source of a linemans power. He'll likely be weaker earlier in the year from that alone. And microfracture plus the ACL is serious stuff. I'd love to see him back at full strength but the odds aren't on his side...

Which is why I'm amazed that some here think Carlisle is gone.

Foster is probably gone, Meadows is broken down and Lepsis is no guarantee.

Carlisle can play Tackle in a pinch and is probably no worse than Pears. There's no way we get rid of him and rest our hopes on a bunch of no experience nobodies like Myers/Kuper.

[Kaylore]

Whoever said Lepsis will be stronger when he comes back is being REAL optimistic. He's been rehabbing a knee, probably working his lower body with minimal weight, which is the biggest source of a linemans power. He'll likely be weaker earlier in the year from that alone. And microfracture plus the ACL is serious stuff. I'd love to see him back at full strength but the odds aren't on his side...

I did and it was recently reported that Lepsis' rehab has gone very well and will for sure be back before training camp and with some good progress he's slated to make all the mini-camps.

Rehabing an ACL is not like it used to be where it takes years. They work and work the legs and it usually comes back stronger than when it was injured in first place because of all the different muscles that are developed to help re-train the leg.

Lepsis will be back and he'll be stronger than he was.

[chrisp]

Getting Lepsis back fit & healthy will probably do a lot for our pass-protection, but I'm still prpepared to suggest that trying to land a stud RT would make a big difference, and is perhaps a bigger FA priority than the D-line, given that a lot of the high-priced sack artists on the maket often fail to product once they've landed that contract.

One of the exciting things about the Cutler era is that we can look forward to being able to go out and win games on offense rather than just hoping to gid that the defense can stop to opposition. A stronger O-line would cement that.

One issue that is often ignored however, is that we also need RBs TEs and FBs that can block - particularly when it comes to picking up the blitz. That is one area where we have really struggled - Tatum in particular has shown a staggering inability to put up any resistance to inrushing linebackers.

I can see Mike Bell becomng entrenched as the starter next year for that reason alone - he is far and away a better blocker - but solidifying the FB position will also be key. IMHO our pass-protection has never recovered from the Loss of Howard Griffith.

For what its worth, my ideal lineup for next year (assuming Nalen retires) is:

LT:Lepsis
LG: Kuper
C: Hamilton
RG: Myers
RT: Some stud FA aquisition

Having said that the nalen retirement question is far from resolved, and the question of whether Hamilton moves inside if he does is also similarly vexed - so that little piece of speculation probably raises more questions than it answers :-)

[fontaine]

For what its worth, my ideal lineup for next year (assuming Nalen retires) is:

LT:Lepsis
LG: Kuper
C: Hamilton
RG: Myers
RT: Some stud FA aquisition

Having said that the nalen retirement question is far from resolved, and the question of whether Hamilton moves inside if he does is also similarly vexed - so that little piece of speculation probably raises more questions than it answers :-)

Never going to happen. Shanahan has never changed four positions at the OL ever before. And for good reason. You want to destroy a decent offense? Then start changing everything at the OL.

At the most Nalen retires so we swing in a new Center with Hamilton, we have a new LG and new RG in Pears but that's it. We don't have a Tomlinson or Brady back there where we can change things up front with impunity.

[BroncoBuff]

Because as already stated, we can't run when it counts. I would bet if you broke down that #9 ypc, that most of our yards come from outside the 20's. And when you look at it inside the 20's and on obvious run situations such as 3rd and less than 3, we rank pretty damn low.

We also kicked more field goals (20) from 1-39 yards (aka redzone area) than any season since 1997. And keep in mind we scored 472 points that year, so our opportunities were a lot higher, which makes those 20 FGs this year look even worse.

In fact, if you look, you'll see Elams FGs from 20-29 yards increase from 1998 to the present. It looks something like this:

1998 - 3
1999 - 8
2000 - 7
2001 - 11
2002 - 9
2003 - 11
2004 - 10
2005 - 10
2006 - 10

I think that is an interesting indicator of our red zone OL. Just something to think about.

Wow, that's an excellent red-zone ineptitude indicator.

But to be specific, red zone ineptitude and goal-line offense aren't exactly the same thing.

[bendog]

Changes at two spots is pretty much unheard of too. One is the rule. And, I thought Nails resigned with Den rather than going with Kubes to Hou for more money with the understanding that he'd play two more. I hate the notion of Carlisle moving on, but it's probably so, what with the cap and the money they have in Nails and Lepsis ... and Foster.

[fontaine]

Changes at two spots is pretty much unheard of too. One is the rule. And, I thought Nails resigned with Den rather than going with Kubes to Hou for more money with the understanding that he'd play two more. I hate the notion of Carlisle moving on, but it's probably so, what with the cap and the money they have in Nails and Lepsis ... and Foster.

You're probably right, Nails does stay for another year and I would like him to stay for 2007. Hamilton at LG, Lepsis at LT. That would leave either Coop (if resigned) or new guy at RG with Pears at RT.

I can't see Shanahan making more than two changes at the right side at the most and only if we can't/don't want to resign Coop if they believe Kuper is ready for the challenge.

[WoodMan]

Whats the skinny on the two guys the Broncos just signed?
Kevin McAlmont 6-1 320 Guard
Jacob Rogers 6-6 312 O tackle.
Looks to me like Shanahan isn't standing pat on his O-line. Glad to see he has signed tham early and will get them into the Broncos strength and conditioning program.
Kuper is a pretty big linemen too, and I if remember correctly he was decribed as having a mean streak.
A year in the weightroom couldn't have hurt Esingler either. I don't think its a dire as some here are suggesting.
Let the competition begin.

[elsid13]

Changes at two spots is pretty much unheard of too. One is the rule. And, I thought Nails resigned with Den rather than going with Kubes to Hou for more money with the understanding that he'd play two more. I hate the notion of Carlisle moving on, but it's probably so, what with the cap and the money they have in Nails and Lepsis ... and Foster.

I strongly believe that Carlisle is gone with both Myers and Kuper sitting there on the roster. I remember reading that Shanahan thought it took a year or two in the system for linemen to be ready to play for him. So both of those guys are ready to go by that time line.

[Rascal]

Foster has roughly 1.6 mil left on his salary (2 years) so it's not that much.

Trade Foster and resign Carlisle. Foster can't play guard.

[kappys]

I agree, I had hoped Foster could move in to RG, but seeing him get bull rushed out the way time and again against SF has pretty much dashed my hopes. Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt he could be as effective inside as even say Leonard Davis. WE have zero depth right now on the OL. I actually though Meadows did a pretty decent job when fully healthy, at least no huge gaffs in his game. I don't really see any upgrades from him in FA. The draft may yield results, but I wouldn't count on a rookie coming into T and making an impact.

Speaking of rooks Pears he acquitted himself reasonably well given the circumstances. They can't all be Mcneil, especially if they are late round picks. I don't see him becoming the LT of the future necesarrily, but perhaps we could see about a transition to RT. He might not be a bad future option but that is pretty hopeful.

[Rascal]

I think pears or Meadows could man RT decent enough. Hopefully Lepsis comes back or it won't matter.

If we can get a fourth for Foster I think we have to take it. I still think Carlisle was our best o-lineman last year. Hamilton was not very good IMO and his salary does not match his performance. I think i would prefer Kuper and Carlisle at guard next year, and Nalen at center for one more year. Then after that have eslinger slide in after he retires.

Carlisle is also a pretty decent tackle in case people forgot, so he increases his value that way as well.

[Atwater His Ass]

Wow, that's an excellent red-zone ineptitude indicator.

But to be specific, red zone ineptitude and goal-line offense aren't exactly the same thing.

Not exactly, but closely related. Really, it's being able to do what you want to do even when the opposing team knows it's coming. We used to be good at that, we aren't right now.

Although I did like how Cutler and Scheffler were working together in the redzone. Having that TE threat back is huge and if it continues to next season, it will open up our running game in the redzone.