Interesting difference in stats from Plummer to Cutler

[bpc]

Who was performing like the veteran here? Crazy. I didn't even think about it like this.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/columns/story?columnist=joyner_kc&id=2709641

[bpc]

If NFL playoff history teaches us anything, it isn't always the team with the greatest strengths that wins. It is often the team with the fewest weaknesses. With that thought in mind, I reviewed two AFC playoff contenders. One team has an uncorrected weakness and the other corrected its weakness by taking drastic action a month ago.

The team with the uncorrected weakness is San Diego. The offensive juggernaut from earlier this season has slowed down of late. San Diego's offense was putting up just over 33 points per game during the first 10 games, but over the last five games it is averaging 26.6 points per game. That second total is somewhat skewed by the 48-point explosion versus Denver in Week 14. Take that game out and the average drops down to just over 21 points.

One of the main reasons for the decrease is the performance of Philip Rivers. Rivers had a passer rating of 99.7 through the first 10 games. His passer rating over his last five games is only 70.4, and if the Denver game is removed, his rating drops to 57.1 over that period.

I reviewed the metrics of these games to find out why Rivers was doing so poorly. The main item that stood out was how Rivers did when faced with a blitz. In the past five games, when he was not facing a blitz, Rivers completed 57 of 119 attempts for 789 yards. Rivers tossed four touchdowns compared to zero interceptions, and his YPA was 6.7. These metrics are actually fairly solid.

However, when facing a blitz, Rivers completed only 8 of 28 attempts for 80 yards. He tossed two compared to three interceptions, and his YPA was 2.5. When the Denver game is removed, Rivers completed only 3 of 22 attempts for 30 yards against the blitz. He tossed zero touchdowns compared to three interceptions, and his YPA was 0.9.

The blitz plays only account for about 20 percent of Rivers' passes, yet all of his interceptions occurred when he had to stare down the barrel of a blitz. This problem has actually been getting worse of late, as Rivers has one completion for seven yards, two interceptions and an intentional grounding penalty in his last 17 passes against a blitz. The Chargers must find a way to fix this issue over the next couple of weeks, or it could lead to a very quick exit from the playoffs.

The team that has addressed a major weakness in the past month has been the Denver Broncos. It was thought that Mike Shanahan replaced Jake Plummer with Jay Cutler because of Plummer's high interception totals. Plummer's yards per attempt metrics show there may have been more to the story than just interceptions:

Jake Plummer
Depth Att Comp Yds TD INT Pen P-Yds YPA
Short 185 133 970 3 4 2 11 5.3
Medium 61 28 494 4 4 1 18 8.4
Deep 44 14 530 4 3 3 40 13.0
Other 31 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.0
Total 321 175 1994 11 11 6 69 6.4


Anything under six yards per attempt on short passes will rank a quarterback in the bottom half of the league, and Plummer was nearly a yard under that. Anything under 9.5 yards per attempt in medium passes is mediocre, and Plummer was also a yard below that figure. His deep pass YPA was quite good, but the short and medium inadequacies were more than offsetting the value of those deep passes.

Contrast his metrics with those of Jay Cutler:

Jay Cutler
Depth Att Comp Yds TD INT Pen P-Yds YPA
Short 61 40 367 3 0 3 15 6.3
Medium 23 14 220 2 0 2 23 10.6
Deep 20 6 184 3 2 1 15 10.0
Other 6 0 0 0 2 0 0 0.0
Total 110 60 771 8 4 6 53 7.5


Cutler has been able to improve the short pass YPA by a yard and the medium pass YPA by over two yards. The tradeoff has been a reduction in deep pass YPA, but the overall effect has been a positive gain of over one yard in total YPA.

One of the reasons Cutler's YPA is much higher than Plummer's is that he has been able to integrate Tony Scheffler into the passing game. Scheffler had only caught six passes for 67 yards, for a meager 5.4 YPA, in the eight games he played with Plummer under center.

Scheffler already has nine receptions for 165 yards, and a 10.6 YPA, in the four games he has played with Cutler throwing him the ball. The lack of a No. 3 receiving option had been a huge weakness for Denver for the past couple of years, but Cutler's rapport with Scheffler could be solving that problem as well.

[Kaylore]

Could someone summarize the article for me?

[bpc]

Article posted.

[Kaylore]

So can we finally all agree that Cutler is the superior quarterback?

[bpc]

I'm just interested in the deep ball throwing where I would have thought Jay is easily superior in the low percentage throws... it isn't there where he beats Plummer though, its in the short to middle range throws where he really puts Jake away.

I knew that Cutler would open up the TE in our offense but Jake really was never accurate or had a strong enough arm to squeeze it in there.

Crazy play on the stats.

[-Slap-]

We can also assume San Diego screwed the pooch by dumping Brees for Rivers.

Sounds like to me like he sends a river of piss down his leg whenever you blitz him.

[elsid13]

Blitz the guy, nope let play a cover 3 or cover 2 and really confusing him ;D

[OrangeShadow]

Basically teams are starting to figure out rivers while cutler is taking off and has enough skill and arm strength to beat teams even after they figure him out

[SoonerBronco]

We can also assume San Diego screwed the pooch by dumping Brees for Rivers.

Sounds like to me like he sends a river of piss down his leg whenever you blitz him.

Then he whines like a little beeeoootch afterward....

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

:deadhorse

[azbroncfan]

Blitz the guy, nope let play a cover 3 or cover 2 and really confusing him ;D

Denver blitz him in game 1 but decided to keep using same blitz and SD adjusted and Coyer didn't. Why put EE on LT man to man is beyond me.

[bpc]

Our methods in the 1st game were fine. We pressured Rivers into an INT for a TD. Then when they hit the hot route with LT we went into a shell... better yet we bent over and grabbed our ankles. We had SD down 24-7 and the only reason we didn't win that game is because our offense resembled Jake's trembling confidence... he couldn't catch a simple shotgun snap.

I would have had no doubt in that case that Jay would have led us to more points, more touchdowns... and a victory.

Well, we could have a 3rd game to get it right. Hopefully we get the chance.

[RhymesayersDU]

Interesting stuff. When I read "uncorrected weakness," I was sure it was going to be about Indy and their run defense, or lack thereof.

As much as I'd like us to go deep in the playoffs, that's probably not realistic. With that in mind, I'd love to see Indy go to San Diego, just to see LT rack up literally 400 yards on the ground.

[Man-Goblin]

The article mentions that Scheffler has become the viable no. 3 receiver the Broncos had lacked in the past. I don't neccessarily agree with that because his production over the past four games hasn't been too much more than Putzier's over the two previous seasons. What the article should have stated is that the emergence of Brandon Marshall has given the Broncos 3 viable WRs to go along with quality TE play. But the author is correct to give Cutler credit for using his options more effectively than Plummer. It really has been been night and day since he took over for Plummer.

Also, on the surface it's surprising that Plummer's deep pass average is so high. But it probably has more to do with the fact that the Broncos hardly ever went deep with him under center.

[elsid13]

Denver blitz him in game 1 but decided to keep using same blitz and SD adjusted and Coyer didn't. Why put EE on LT man to man is beyond me.

There are time that I miss Greg Robinson. Image the crap that he would throw at opponent with speed Denver has now at LB and Champ/DWill/Foxworth/Paymah in secondary.

[El Minion]

If NFL playoff history teaches us anything, it isn't always the team with the greatest strengths that wins. It is often the team with the fewest weaknesses. With that thought in mind, I reviewed two AFC playoff contenders. One team has an uncorrected weakness and the other corrected its weakness by taking drastic action a month ago.

The team with the uncorrected weakness is San Diego. The offensive juggernaut from earlier this season has slowed down of late. San Diego's offense was putting up just over 33 points per game during the first 10 games, but over the last five games it is averaging 26.6 points per game. That second total is somewhat skewed by the 48-point explosion versus Denver in Week 14. Take that game out and the average drops down to just over 21 points.

One of the main reasons for the decrease is the performance of Philip Rivers. Rivers had a passer rating of 99.7 through the first 10 games. His passer rating over his last five games is only 70.4, and if the Denver game is removed, his rating drops to 57.1 over that period.

I reviewed the metrics of these games to find out why Rivers was doing so poorly. The main item that stood out was how Rivers did when faced with a blitz. In the past five games, when he was not facing a blitz, Rivers completed 57 of 119 attempts for 789 yards. Rivers tossed four touchdowns compared to zero interceptions, and his YPA was 6.7. These metrics are actually fairly solid.

However, when facing a blitz, Rivers completed only 8 of 28 attempts for 80 yards. He tossed two compared to three interceptions, and his YPA was 2.5. When the Denver game is removed, Rivers completed only 3 of 22 attempts for 30 yards against the blitz. He tossed zero touchdowns compared to three interceptions, and his YPA was 0.9.

The blitz plays only account for about 20 percent of Rivers' passes, yet all of his interceptions occurred when he had to stare down the barrel of a blitz. This problem has actually been getting worse of late, as Rivers has one completion for seven yards, two interceptions and an intentional grounding penalty in his last 17 passes against a blitz. The Chargers must find a way to fix this issue over the next couple of weeks, or it could lead to a very quick exit from the playoffs.

The team that has addressed a major weakness in the past month has been the Denver Broncos. It was thought that Mike Shanahan replaced Jake Plummer with Jay Cutler because of Plummer's high interception totals. Plummer's yards per attempt metrics show there may have been more to the story than just interceptions:

Jake Plummer
Depth Att Comp Yds TD INT Pen P-Yds YPA
Short 185 133 970 3 4 2 11 5.3
Medium 61 28 494 4 4 1 18 8.4
Deep 44 14 530 4 3 3 40 13.0
Other 31 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.0
Total 321 175 1994 11 11 6 69 6.4


Anything under six yards per attempt on short passes will rank a quarterback in the bottom half of the league, and Plummer was nearly a yard under that. Anything under 9.5 yards per attempt in medium passes is mediocre, and Plummer was also a yard below that figure. His deep pass YPA was quite good, but the short and medium inadequacies were more than offsetting the value of those deep passes.

Contrast his metrics with those of Jay Cutler:

Jay Cutler
Depth Att Comp Yds TD INT Pen P-Yds YPA
Short 61 40 367 3 0 3 15 6.3
Medium 23 14 220 2 0 2 23 10.6
Deep 20 6 184 3 2 1 15 10.0
Other 6 0 0 0 2 0 0 0.0
Total 110 60 771 8 4 6 53 7.5


Cutler has been able to improve the short pass YPA by a yard and the medium pass YPA by over two yards. The tradeoff has been a reduction in deep pass YPA, but the overall effect has been a positive gain of over one yard in total YPA.

One of the reasons Cutler's YPA is much higher than Plummer's is that he has been able to integrate Tony Scheffler into the passing game. Scheffler had only caught six passes for 67 yards, for a meager 5.4 YPA, in the eight games he played with Plummer under center.

Scheffler already has nine receptions for 165 yards, and a 10.6 YPA, in the four games he has played with Cutler throwing him the ball. The lack of a No. 3 receiving option had been a huge weakness for Denver for the past couple of years, but Cutler's rapport with Scheffler could be solving that problem as well.

After watching Rivers the past few weeks I was thinking the same thing, Rivers is regressing:

CAT G Att Comp Pct Yds YPA Lg TD Int 1st 1st % 20+ Sac Rate
SEPTEMBER GAMES 2 46 33 71.7 343 7.46 38 2 0 19 57.6 4 0 107.4
OCTOBER GAMES 5 164 106 64.6 1193 7.27 57 8 3 61 57.5 14 10 94.9
NOVEMBER GAMES 4 121 76 62.8 904 7.47 51 5 3 44 57.9 11 8 89.0
DECEMBER GAMES 4 105 50 47.6 717 6.83 55 5 2 30 60.0 10 7 78.2

[Man-Goblin]

Our methods in the 1st game were fine. We pressured Rivers into an INT for a TD. Then when they hit the hot route with LT we went into a shell... better yet we bent over and grabbed our ankles. We had SD down 24-7 and the only reason we didn't win that game is because our offense resembled Jake's trembling confidence... he couldn't catch a simple shotgun snap.

I would have had no doubt in that case that Jay would have led us to more points, more touchdowns... and a victory.

Well, we could have a 3rd game to get it right. Hopefully we get the chance.

The most distressing part about the article, though, is that second game against the Broncos was the exception to Rivers' performance over the past 5 games. That doesn't bode well if the Broncos get their re-rematch.

[Mile High Shack]

After watching Rivers the past few weeks I was thinking the same thing, Rivers is regressing:

CAT G Att Comp Pct Yds YPA Lg TD Int 1st 1st % 20+ Sac Rate
SEPTEMBER GAMES 2 46 33 71.7 343 7.46 38 2 0 19 57.6 4 0 107.4
OCTOBER GAMES 5 164 106 64.6 1193 7.27 57 8 3 61 57.5 14 10 94.9
NOVEMBER GAMES 4 121 76 62.8 904 7.47 51 5 3 44 57.9 11 8 89.0
DECEMBER GAMES 4 105 50 47.6 717 6.83 55 5 2 30 60.0 10 7 78.2

I don't think he is regressing, rather teams are focusing on taking him out of the game rather than LT and the results are rather good

LT will get his yards, but w/o a passing game, the offense is going to stumble

amazing Coyer couldn't figure that out

[400HZ]

After watching Rivers the past few weeks I was thinking the same thing, Rivers is regressing:

CAT G Att Comp Pct Yds YPA Lg TD Int 1st 1st % 20+ Sac Rate
SEPTEMBER GAMES 2 46 33 71.7 343 7.46 38 2 0 19 57.6 4 0 107.4
OCTOBER GAMES 5 164 106 64.6 1193 7.27 57 8 3 61 57.5 14 10 94.9
NOVEMBER GAMES 4 121 76 62.8 904 7.47 51 5 3 44 57.9 11 8 89.0
DECEMBER GAMES 4 105 50 47.6 717 6.83 55 5 2 30 60.0 10 7 78.2

The article left out the fact that Rivers has been without his number 1, 2, and 4 receiver the past few games as well. At this point his receiving options boil down to either Gates or Vincent Jackson deep. When teams blitz, Gates has to stay in for pass protection. Jackson usually doesn't have time to get deep if teams blitz. It's pretty simple actually. The first part of the season Rivers was getting great production out of Eric Parker and Keenan McKardell, but both have been banged up. Nobody is too worried though. Rivers is a f***ing madman in the 4th quarter no matter the circumstances, and Parker and McKardell should both be healthy by playoff time.

[Garcia Bronco]

The article left out the fact that Rivers has been without his number 1, 2, and 4 receiver the past few games as well. At this point his receiving options boil down to either Gates or Vincent Jackson deep. When teams blitz, Gates has to stay in for pass protection. Jackson usually doesn't have time to get deep if teams blitz. It's pretty simple actually. The first part of the season Rivers was getting great production out of Eric Parker and Keenan McKardell, but both have been banged up. Nobody is too worried though. Rivers is a ****ing madman in the 4th quarter no matter the circumstances, and Parker and McKardell should both be healthy by playoff time.

I hear you. Losing your normal/more talented guys hurts the QB position. He still has to make it work in the end though. I said earlier this season that this is SD's best chance to win a Super Bowl, because starting next year we're going to win it two in a row...maybe 3. So Rivers better get it done this year, because after that...it's over. :)

[400HZ]

I hear you. Losing your normal/more talented guys hurts the QB position. He still has to make it work in the end though. I said earlier this season that this is SD's best chance to win a Super Bowl, because starting next year we're going to win it two in a row...maybe 3. So Rivers better get it done this year, because after that...it's over. :)

Lol I don't see why it would be over for San Diego next year. They have the youngest roster in the AFCW AND the most cap space by far. What's your reasoning?

[Garcia Bronco]

Lol I don't see why it would be over for San Diego next year. They have the youngest roster in the AFCW AND the most cap space by far. What's your reasoning?

It's very simple...we are better and we own you. ;D

[Broncos4tw]

Short to medium means third down conversions. I'll take that.

Jay has a stronger arm, that's a given. I think he has better vision, which is hilarious, considering how long he has been in the league vs. Jake. He sees more receivers, and doesn't just dump it one yard when the primary isn't open.

He is just as cool and collected. And he can actually play from the pocket. He is going to be something special.

[400HZ]

It's very simple...we are better and we own you. ;D

Hehe well you'll have a shot next year, but certainly not this year ;D

[Broncos4tw]

As long as we are still alive, we have a chance. For example, we play the Pats. We own the Pats. Whoever Indy plays wins. We end up playing a scrub in round two at home. In that case, I like our chances a lot more. :D

[Garcia Bronco]

Short to medium means third down conversions. I'll take that.

Jay has a stronger arm, that's a given. I think he has better vision, which is hilarious, considering how long he has been in the league vs. Jake. He sees more receivers, and doesn't just dump it one yard when the primary isn't open.

He is just as cool and collected. And he can actually play from the pocket. He is going to be something special.

He's a half foot taller or so...he better see more receivers.

[Garcia Bronco]

Hehe well you'll have a shot next year, but certainly not this year ;D

You better hope we aren't the sixth seed and you guys are the first...I swaer we'll some into your house and steal the playoff keys to your crib.

[400HZ]

You better hope we aren't the sixth seed and you guys are the first...I swaer we'll some into your house and steal the playoff keys to your crib.

Nah. We won't let up in the 3rd quarter next game, and it will be 48-3. Book it!

[Merlin]

Also, on the surface it's surprising that Plummer's deep pass average is so high. But it probably has more to do with the fact that the Broncos hardly ever went deep with him under center.
Why do you guys feel the need to conjecture about stats even when they are right in front of you. The stats state that he went deep twice as many times as Cutler (but then he has played a little more than twice as many games). So there is enough data to justify their findings. Plummer was better with the deep pass. The problem with the mane is that there are some posters who like to make up stats on the fly, and claim them as facts. Plummer has always been recognized as a good deep passer (look at the dramatic difference in Lelie's numbers between here and Atlanta, even though Vick has a much stronger arm). Plummer has many flaws, but despite what the haters said, his deep passes were never truly one of them (the past two yrs one of his receivers led the league in yds/catch in the league). Did he have a rocket arm? No, but it was strong and reasonably accurate on the deep pass (and the best in the league when thrown out of the pocket). That being said, Cutler is a far better option, but less not feel the need invent facts to justify a belief.

[BroncoInferno]

We can also assume San Diego screwed the pooch by dumping Brees for Rivers.

Sounds like to me like he sends a river of piss down his leg whenever you blitz him.

Rivers is still inexperienced, so it isn't surprising or unusual that he has hit a rough patch. In the long run, he will be a top notch QB.

[Merlin]

Regarding Rivers's susceptibility to the blitz, for the past few weeks I've been posting about his weakness (as I'm sure have others), and I think 400Hz (I think that is his screen name) even acknowledged the problem, but he thought Marty could fix it by the playoffs (something I highly doubt considering his record there). Nonetheless, that team has some freaks playing for them, and they can hurt you a number of ways (both in D and O). The only thing I can see holding them back is Marty (thankfully).

As I have said (as well as others) in many posts lately, I REALLY hope Denver goes back to its blitz packages these playoffs, because without them, this D is far to easy to beat late in the game (to blame Plummer for the loss to SD is a joke, a 17 pt lead halfway through the 3 qtr should hold with any half decent D).

[bpc]

Nah. We won't let up in the 3rd quarter next game, and it will be 48-3. Book it!


You are dreaming my friend. I pray we get the chance to play SD again. If you can take us out three times in a year, we will concede defeat easily.

I know however, that will not happen. The confidence that Jay is playing with right now is enormous. The QB you saw in the 3rd quarter is going to be the one you see for 60 minutes.

Careful what you wish for.

[BroncoInferno]

Why do you guys feel the need to conjecture about stats even when they are right in front of you. The stats state that he went deep twice as many times as Cutler (but then he has played a little more than twice as many games). So there is enough data to justify their findings. Plummer was better with the deep pass. The problem with the mane is that there are some posters who like to make up stats on the fly, and claim them as facts. Plummer has always been recognized as a good deep passer (look at the dramatic difference in Lelie's numbers between here and Atlanta, even though Vick has a much stronger arm). Plummer has many flaws, but despite what the haters said, his deep passes were never truly one of them (the past two yrs one of his receivers led the league in yds/catch in the league). Did he have a rocket arm? No, but it was strong and reasonably accurate on the deep pass (and the best in the league when thrown out of the pocket). That being said, Cutler is a far better option, but less not feel the need invent facts to justify a belief.

Excellent post. The critics of Plummer's deep passing were looking for perfection rather than making a realistic comparison between Plummer going deep and other QBs. If the ball didn't hit a guy perfectly in stride he was criticized. The numbers, however, always supported him as being better downfield than he was given credit for. Last season he actually had only 8 fewer big pass plays than Manning. I'm not saying that Cutler is not better for this team right now...he is. Just pointing out the gulf between perception and reality around here when people lock themselves into an argument.

[Garcia Bronco]

Nah. We won't let up in the 3rd quarter next game, and it will be 48-3. Book it!

haha...we won't let up at all.

[Merlin]

The article left out the fact that Rivers has been without his number 1, 2, and 4 receiver the past few games as well.
In this case that is not the reason. He has looked totally lost against the blitz. In fact the last two games he could not even see the blitz when it was coming from his RIGHT, forget the blind side. Moreover, his internal clock seems to be broken, he has no sense of when he has been back there far too long. This is not a small problem. He has some SERIOUS issues with the blitz at the moment, and when a QB can't even feel it when its coming from his throwing side, then he is basically a sitting duck because he can be easily hit with the blitz from either side. To be honest, I don't think you have the coaching to solve this problem by the playoffs, and the proof is that it has been getting worse the past couple of games, not better.

[Taco John]

I'm just interested in the deep ball throwing where I would have thought Jay is easily superior in the low percentage throws... it isn't there where he beats Plummer though, its in the short to middle range throws where he really puts Jake away.

I knew that Cutler would open up the TE in our offense but Jake really was never accurate or had a strong enough arm to squeeze it in there.

Crazy play on the stats.

Didn't Javon catch two 60 plus yard catch and runs. I remember he had one against New England. Seems like there was another that is escaping me.

[Merlin]

Didn't Javon catch two 60 plus yard catch and runs. I remember he had one against New England. Seems like there was another that is escaping me.
You mean like Marshall against Seattle?

[Taco John]

You mean like Marshall against Seattle?

Exactly like that.

Do you seriously believes that Plummer is a better downfield passer than Cutler is, or do you think that there is probably a logical expanation for why Plummer's numbers there are seemingly better?

Personally (and I haven't done the research yet), I think it's because Jay is completing more short and intermediate range passes on a percentage base than Plummer, bringing his numbers down.

I don't buy the idea that Plummer is a good downfield passer at all.

[-Slap-]

Lack of arm strength is more glaring when a quarterback is trying to drive the ball on the intermediate routes, than it is on deep passes when he can put some air under the ball.

[broncogary]

Lack of arm strength is more glaring when a quarterback is trying to drive the ball on the intermediate routes, than it is on deep passes when he can put some air under the ball.

So is lack of accuracy.

[Merlin]

Exactly like that.
Try and be a little less transparent, the hate on you sometimes seems to ooze from the screen. Cutler is the better QB, but it does not mean you have to fabricate against Plummer. Marshall's pass was by Cutler.

Personally (and I haven't done the research yet), I think it's because Jay is completing more short and intermediate range passes on a percentage base than Plummer, bringing his numbers down.
For the haters it is a lot easier to CREATE the stats, than use the one's that are right in front of them on the screen. Did you even bother to read the stats? IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for the data on Cutler's short and medium passes to confound the findings on his long range passes, because they are a DIFFERENT DATA SET. That is, it is not measured on a basis of percentages of total passes, but rather on a basis of percentages of ONLY long range passes. TJ, do you have any understanding of stats, or do you just take any opportunity to manufacture cr^p against Plummer?

[broncogary]

For the haters it is a lot easier to CREATE the stats, than use the one's that are right in front of them on the screen.

Nobody has to create stats. The line to pick up Plummer this next year will be short.

[Taco John]

Try and be a little less transparent, the hate on you sometimes seems to ooze from the screen. Cutler is the better QB, but it does not mean you have to fabricate against Plummer. Marshall's pass was by Cutler.

I don't know what you're talking about. I'm well aware that Marshall's pass was by Cutler.


For the haters it is a lot easier to CREATE the stats, than use the one's that are right in front of them on the screen. Did you even bother to read the stats? IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for the data on Cutler's short and medium passes to confound the findings on his long range passes, because they are a DIFFERENT DATA SET. That is, it is not measured on a basis of percentages of total passes, but rather on a basis of percentages of ONLY long range passes. TJ, do you have any understanding of stats, or do you just take any opportunity to manufacture cr^p against Plummer?


I"m not trying to manufacture anything. I'm trying to understand why the numbers are contrary to what we can clearly see on the field. And I think I figured it out. I don't think the sample size is large enough for Cutler. I'd wager that if he were being rated on a similar sample size, he'd beat Plummer there as well.

[BroncoInferno]

I"m not trying to manufacture anything. I'm trying to understand why the numbers are contrary to an assumption I made.

Fixed`it for you.

[Merlin]

I don't think the sample size is large enough for Cutler. I'd wager that if he were being rated on a similar sample size, he'd beat Plummer there as well.
I think you are right, but for the wrong reason. I think Cutler is still trying to figure out the long pass. Sometimes his accuracy is way off (e.g. Marshall wide open yet he led him almost out of bounds at the 1), and then it is just beautiful (we can all think of a few of those). I think once he is truly comfortable with his receivers and being back there, his numbers will improve. But if you just multiplied his performance by what he has done in the past, then no.

However, that is the nice thing about Cutler, other than your teabagging :), very few of us expected him to mature at such an accelerated rate (and he is only beginning to showcase his talents). It has been something special to experience, and having a coaching staff properly manage his progression has been a joy to experience (and I'm sure this is the case from his perspective as well).

[broncogary]

Sometimes his accuracy is way off (e.g. Marshall wide open yet he led him almost out of bounds at the 1...

Of course, it could have been the wind.

[Man-Goblin]

Why do you guys feel the need to conjecture about stats even when they are right in front of you. The stats state that he went deep twice as many times as Cutler (but then he has played a little more than twice as many games). So there is enough data to justify their findings. Plummer was better with the deep pass. The problem with the mane is that there are some posters who like to make up stats on the fly, and claim them as facts. Plummer has always been recognized as a good deep passer (look at the dramatic difference in Lelie's numbers between here and Atlanta, even though Vick has a much stronger arm). Plummer has many flaws, but despite what the haters said, his deep passes were never truly one of them (the past two yrs one of his receivers led the league in yds/catch in the league). Did he have a rocket arm? No, but it was strong and reasonably accurate on the deep pass (and the best in the league when thrown out of the pocket). That being said, Cutler is a far better option, but less not feel the need invent facts to justify a belief.

I misrepresented what I was trying to say. By looking at your beloved pass stats, it does show that 23% of Plummer's passes went deep, as opposed to only 18.5% of Cutler's. So I'm sorry.

But Cutler's sample size is roughly 1/3 of Plummer's this year, not to mention the countless number of attempts we've seen in the 3 seasons previous to this one.

And the article doesn't state what qualifies as deep pass. Is it 20 yards downfield? 25? 30? If that's your criteria for a deep pass, then fine, maybe Plummer can compete. But saying he throws an accurate DEEP ball is pure folly.

[Merlin]

Of course, it could have been the wind.
It didn't seem that way, but considering how innacurate Palmer looked (and that is one of his greatest strengths), the weather may have been a factor. However, it should didn't seem to be the case in his other passes, some of which were fairly special (and Rod's pass to him, on the same play, looked pretty accurate :) )

[Merlin]

And the article doesn't state what qualifies as deep pass. Is it 20 yards downfield? 25? 30?
good criticism
If that's your criteria for a deep pass, then fine, maybe Plummer can compete. But saying he throws an accurate DEEP ball is pure folly.
A lot statistical data supports the claim that Plummer is a very good deep passer (go look at football outsiders and see his numbers for the past 4 yrs). Many posters on the mane have always been very harsh on him, and used any excuse to invent facts to support their hatred. One can validly argue that Plummer has stunk this yr, and still acknowledge he did somethings well, but small minds have a tendency of NEEDING to group all assessments into one of two groupings: 1. greatness, 2. utter incompetence.

[Man-Goblin]

good criticism

A lot statistical data supports the claim that Plummer is a very good deep passer (go look at football outsiders and see his numbers for the past 4 yrs). Many posters on the mane have always been very harsh on him, and used any excuse to invent facts to support their hatred. One can validly argue that Plummer has stunk this yr, and still acknowledge he did somethings well, but small minds have a tendency of NEEDING to group all assessments into one of two groupings: 1. greatness, 2. utter incompetence.

He's not incompetent at thowing the deep ball from outside the pocket, you're right. Especially when he had Lelie selling out on every play. The problem is, an ideal situation has a QB is out of the pocket a small percentage of the time.

But my original point was not to quesiton the stats, but to figure out WHY they were the way they were. Stats don't always show the whole picture. How many of Plummer's completions were because of spectacular catches by covered receivers? How many were a result of YAC? And so on...

Purely from observing the team, there is no question in my mind that Cutler is superior at throwing the deep ball from the pocket, scrambling outside the pocket, from the sidelines, flat on his back, left handed, drunk, concussed, or with his helmet on backwards. And in turn, I've seen too many UNCATCHABLE deep balls from Jake to say he is overall above average at tossing them. And, unless there are some doozies out there, I don't think any stats can tell me otherwise.

[iowa broncofan]

I think you are right, but for the wrong reason. I think Cutler is still trying to figure out the long pass. Sometimes his accuracy is way off (e.g. Marshall wide open yet he led him almost out of bounds at the 1), and then it is just beautiful (we can all think of a few of those). I think once he is truly comfortable with his receivers and being back there, his numbers will improve. But if you just multiplied his performance by what he has done in the past, then no.

However, that is the nice thing about Cutler, other than your teabagging :), very few of us expected him to mature at such an accelerated rate (and he is only beginning to showcase his talents). It has been something special to experience, and having a coaching staff properly manage his progression has been a joy to experience (and I'm sure this is the case from his perspective as well).

Well said. I don't know who's better at the long ball right now, but I'm pretty sure I didn't see Plummer throwing any 65-yard lasers. Then again, Cutler has overthrown more than one open man downfield in his four game stint. When he has half Plummer's experience, he'll be throwing those passes in late January.

Why am I summarizing an argument I just quoted? I'm not sure.

[Steve Sewell]

I don't think he is regressing, rather teams are focusing on taking him out of the game rather than LT and the results are rather good

LT will get his yards, but w/o a passing game, the offense is going to stumble

amazing Coyer couldn't figure that out

Quite the contrary...the reason we've owned SD up until this season is because we took LT away. Look at his stats over the last few years vs. the Broncos.

[Taco John]

Fixed`it for you.



You didn't fix anything. You're telling me that Plummer is a better deep ball passer than Jay Cutler? Come on. You guys don't seriously believe that.

I mean, if you want to make the case that Jake is an above average deep ball passer, you're welcome to it. I haven't seen that case yet, and watching him play the last three years, it goes against what I've seen. That's not to say Jake isn't capable of throwing a deep ball. He certainly has the ability to toss one or two a game. But it's not a strong point in his game by any stretch of the imagination. It has to be carefully set up. Otherwise, a pick is just a likely to occur as a completion.

Jake has had his good games, but he's the type of quarterback where everything has to be idea in order to perform well. Jay, as we saw this past weekend, can do it in the snow, the wind, ahead, behind, with pressure in his face, to any receiver on the team.

But the other thing that I think Jay is running into with regards to the stats are that of the 6 long completions that are being credited to him (as opposed to Jake's 14), at least half of them were stopped by the endzone.

[Blueflame]

I misrepresented what I was trying to say. By looking at your beloved pass stats, it does show that 23% of Plummer's passes went deep, as opposed to only 18.5% of Cutler's. So I'm sorry.

But Cutler's sample size is roughly 1/3 of Plummer's this year, not to mention the countless number of attempts we've seen in the 3 seasons previous to this one.

And the article doesn't state what qualifies as deep pass. Is it 20 yards downfield? 25? 30? If that's your criteria for a deep pass, then fine, maybe Plummer can compete. But saying he throws an accurate DEEP ball is pure folly.

The fact is, a deep pass can be a completion even if said pass is a floating, underthrown duck that the WR has to slow down or even come back on his route to catch. The aforementioned long pass to Walker against the Pats would most likely have been for a TD and not just a big gain had the pass caught Walker "in stride". The fact that Walker caught it is a credit to the WR for adjusting to make the catch while defenders had plenty of time to close on it as well.

[Popps]

So can we finally all agree that Cutler is the superior quarterback?

I don't think anyone ever doubted that he'd eventually be the better QB. The question was when to start him. Mike Shanahan waited until he thought he was ready, and appeared to pick the proper time. We had a contingent around here demanding for him to START NOW every week, which Shanahan did not do. He let him learn the system while we were compiling a winning record.

So, when you ask if we "can all agree" he's a better QB, you're asking the wrong question. What you should be asking is... so, can we all agree that the team's problems are solved now that we've made (however much) improvement at the QB position.

That's where you'll get your debate.

The majority of the "defense" for Jake around here came from people who had enough vision to see other team problems BEFORE we made the QB switch. People who got tired of watching our ****-can defense give up 34 points to Manning, only to be told that he's awesome and the loss was pinned on a first half forced QB fumble.

In my opinion, the arguments were always MUCH more about the scape-goating of all team problems to the QB than they were the QB himself.

In fact, if you can find me a single post where anyone states that Plummer was a better QB, I'd love to read it.

[-Slap-]

The fact is, a deep pass can be a completion even if said pass is a floating, underthrown duck that the WR has to slow down or even come back on his route to catch. The aforementioned long pass to Walker against the Pats would most likely have been for a TD and not just a big gain had the pass caught Walker "in stride". The fact that Walker caught it is a credit to the WR for adjusting to make the catch while defenders had plenty of time to close on it as well.

Exactly.

But, wait, Ashley Lelie led the NFL in yards per reception, so Jake must have been Daryl Lamonica on the deep ball.

:)

Its so incredible the guy could take such a collosal pratfall this year and people will still try and defend his performance.

[Taco John]

So, when you ask if we "can all agree" he's a better QB, you're asking the wrong question. What you should be asking is... so, can we all agree that the team's problems are solved now that we've made (however much) improvement at the QB position.

That's where you'll get your debate.


ROFL!

You're like a fun house mirror. You distort things so badly, that they barely resemble the real thing.

There is actually no one that I know of who is making any case that all of our teams problems are solved, though this is the point where you think there is some actual debate. Who, pray-tell, is debating this point with you?

Our teams quarterback problems are solved, of that there is no doubt. But that doesn't solve "ALL" of our teams problems, and nobody here ever even hinted that it would. Also, there isn't a single person on this board that blamed the Indy loss on Plummer.

[Kaylore]

I don't think anyone ever doubted that he'd eventually be the better QB. The question was when to start him. Mike Shanahan waited until he thought he was ready, and appeared to pick the proper time. We had a contingent around here demanding for him to START NOW every week, which Shanahan did not do. He let him learn the system while we were compiling a winning record.

So, when you ask if we "can all agree" he's a better QB, you're asking the wrong question. What you should be asking is... so, can we all agree that the team's problems are solved now that we've made (however much) improvement at the QB position.

That's where you'll get your debate.

The majority of the "defense" for Jake around here came from people who had enough vision to see other team problems BEFORE we made the QB switch. People who got tired of watching our ****-can defense give up 34 points to Manning, only to be told that he's awesome and the loss was pinned on a first half forced QB fumble.

In my opinion, the arguments were always MUCH more about the scape-goating of all team problems to the QB than they were the QB himself.

In fact, if you can find me a single post where anyone states that Plummer was a better QB, I'd love to read it.
Popps, this thread is about Cutler's abilities against Plummer's. No one here said that we didn't have other problems on this team and no one here tried to blame a lack of pass rush, poor special teams play, or whatever else on Plummer. And no on promised those problems would go away with Cutler. Why you and others keep pointing to this like it was ever a point of contention is beyond me.

If you're wondering why people pushed so hard for a change at QB and not other problem areas, it's because unlike other areas we had someone ready that we could upgrade the quarterback position with immediately. Likewise have we pushed for changes at other positions where the current starter is playing poorly and another player could be an upgrade. The other problem areas that you keep pointing to are areas we can't do anything about until we either make changes in the staff and/or personnel and that won't happen until the season is over, so complaining about it every week will quickly get old and do little to address the problem.

[Kaylore]

Back on the topic at hand, Cutler appears to be a better third down quarterback with his completion percentage on third down hovering around 60% and Rivers is all over between 45% and 57%.

[Popps]

Popps, this thread is about Cutler's abilities against Plummer's.

Right, and you asked a question... and I answered. ("Can we all agree..etc.)

No one here said that we didn't have other problems on this team and no one here tried to blame a lack of pass rush, poor special teams play, or whatever else on Plummer..

My friend, I can only guess that you haven't been paying close enough attention. Our defense put on one of the worst displays I've ever seen against Pittsburgh in the AFCCG, and all (a certain contingent) could talk about was an interception at the end of the first half.

There's you're point of contention, NOT who is better, Jake or Jay.

And no on promised those problems would go away with Cutler..

Actually, you're wrong again. I'm not going to dig up quotes, but they're there if you want to find them. We heard everything from... "the defense is going to be more rested" to "it'll improve the running game, etc.
Our defense is as bad as ever. Maybe worse.

So, yea... you definitely had people pushing the QB switch as a fix-all. Maybe not you, but we heard it.

If you're wondering why people pushed so hard for a change at QB and not other problem areas, it's because unlike other areas we had someone ready that we could upgrade the quarterback position with immediately.

If by immediately, you mean after 11 games... and if by immediately, you mean two straight losses with mostly sub-par play, you're right.

If MIke Shanahan felt there was an "immediate" solution... he would have made a QB switch after game one. He waited until week 12.

I understand where you're going with the concept of having another option, but don't mistake people on a message board THINKING a rookie QB was ready and Mike Shanahan DECIDING when he was ready.

The other problem areas that you keep pointing to are areas we can't do anything about until we either make changes in the staff and/or personnel and that won't happen until the season is over, so complaining about it every week will quickly get old and do little to address the problem.

Well, I agree to an extent, there. But, to us that have been looking at some of these global (team) issues outside of JUST the QB position, it's a little frustrating to watch our defense trying to hand games away like last week, while a new breed of wide-eyed posters awaken to these defensive shortcomings as if they just happened in week 12.

I mean, you read some of these QB-only types' posts now about how we (suddenly) need D-line improvements and it's enough to make you wet yourself laughing.


I'm with you on Jay, man. I've been a huge fan since we drafted the guy... and am elated with his play. I just responded to a question you asked, which I felt was the wrong question. It's not about who's better, Jake or Jay. We know the ultimate answer to that one.

Ultimately, I'm just happy we're winning again... no matter who is behind center. I said that when people were complaining about wins in November, and I'll say it now. I think we've got flaws, but I enjoyed beating Oakland at home just as much as I enjoyed beating Cinci at home.

[Kaylore]

Actually, the one area you listed where we did show improvement was in the running game and that is directly related to forcing safeties out of the box to defend the pass, something that happened for the first time all season against San Diego to the tune of 116 yards on the ground. For perspective, we are the only team that has managed to do that against the Chargers in Qualcomm - neither LJ, Sean Alexander or Steven Jackson managed to get to the 100 yard mark on the ground and we did with injuries at both tackle positions.

So Cutler did help that part of the game because he started involving the tight ends more and forcing the safeties to back off. I make this point only because you suggested they aren't related in your post and that it was foolish for people to think he could help that area and they are absolutely related.

[Popps]

Actually, the one area you listed where we did show improvement was in the running game and that is directly related to forcing safeties out of the box to defend the pass, something that happened for the first time all season against San Diego to the tune of 116 yards on the ground. For perspective, we are the only team that has managed to do that against the Chargers in Qualcomm - neither LJ, Sean Alexander or Steven Jackson managed to accomplish that and we did with a injuries at both tackle positions.

So Cutler did help that part of the game because he started involving the tight ends more and forcing the safeties to back off. I make this point only because you suggested they aren't related in your post and that it was foolish for people to think he could help that area and they are absolutely related.

Again, didn't someone recently post a stat showing our running averages pre-Jay to be about the same as post-Jay? I think it was Taco, ironically.

Jay's going to work the middle of the field more effectively. So, I do agree.... he'll open up things a bit. But, we still have issues. Far too many 0-1-2 yard runs on first down. But, that's likely a line issue.

[Taco John]

Actually, you're wrong again. I'm not going to dig up quotes, but they're there if you want to find them. We heard everything from... "the defense is going to be more rested" to "it'll improve the running game, etc.
Our defense is as bad as ever. Maybe worse.

So, yea... you definitely had people pushing the QB switch as a fix-all. Maybe not you, but we heard it.




I'll cop to that. If Plummer manages a scoring drive there, we go into halftime 17-10, with momentum behind us. If we come out of the locker room after the half with another scoring drive, we are tied with the Steelers 17-all at home. Instead, Plummer came out and threw an interception. That's not a defensive line problem. That's a quarterback problem.

If Plummer managed to score there, that wouldn't have fixed our defensive line during that game. But it would have gone a long ways towards fixing the problem we were having with the scoreboard.

Nobody pitched the QB switch as a fix all. I and others have pitched the QB switch as a solution to the problems we were having at the QB position.

[Kaylore]

Again, didn't someone recently post a stat showing our running averages pre-Jay to be about the same as post-Jay? I think it was Taco, ironically.

Jay's going to work the middle of the field more effectively. So, I do agree.... he'll open up things a bit. But, we still have issues. Far too many 0-1-2 yard runs on first down. But, that's likely a line issue.

Partly. Our line is pretty good outside of our tackles. Foster is making his case for worst tackle in the league. Pears isn't great but what are you going to do? It has more to do with Tatum lying about his health so he plays below 100 or even 80% and Mike Bell not getting put in until later in the game.

[Taco John]

To be fair to Tatum, I don't think he's necessarily lying, but instead trying to play through pain. Some can get away with it. Unfortunately, he can't.

[Popps]

Partly. Our line is pretty good outside of our tackles. Foster is making his case for worst tackle in the league. Pears isn't great but what are you going to do? It has more to do with Tatum lying about his health so he plays below 100 or even 80% and Mike Bell not getting put in until later in the game.

Issues that go (and have gone) far beyond the QB position.

I hope Lepsis can come back near 100%. It wouldn't surprise me to see us go OT on day one.

Outside of that, I'd like to see some muscle back in this running game. For all the talk of our undersized line and zone blocking, our 97/98 teams absolutely lined up and punched teams in the mouth. We had nasty linemen, a LB-destroying fullback and a RB with pop who gained yards after contact.

[Popps]

I'll cop to that. If Plummer manages a scoring drive there, we go into halftime 17-10, with momentum behind us.

So, why is it just Plummer on the scoring drive, though? Didn't we have a running game and a few other guys on that offense?

But, to play along, so.. if we can get another score, we STILL go into halftime down... and the defense hadn't stopped them the entire first quarter. (Until the very last drive, I believe.)

Even Shanahan and Coyer called it for what it was. I already posted those quotes.

Plus, if memory serves... didn't Pitt get the ball first in the 2nd half? Fairly sure they did.

So, we're basically in a throw-only hole, thanks to our swiss-cheese defense. I suppose the upside is that they didn't bend over for a playoff record like they did against Mr. Awesome a year earlier. (Or was it two? Or defensive melt-downs sort of blend together after a while.)

Jay Cutler at his best in that game gets us a little better looking final score that still has us playing golf the next weekend.

A top flight front seven likely wins that game for us.

Again, ask Pittsburgh. They won the Superbowl with that concept, while "protect your defense with your offense" teams like Indy are going south again this time of year, like they always do.

[Taco John]

So, why is it just Plummer on the scoring drive, though? Didn't we have a running game and a few other guys on that offense?

Because it was first and ten on the first play of that drive when he threw the interception. That drive started at 1:55. The Steelers got the ball in Denver territory with 1:48 on the clock. And because as a quarterback, it's Plummer's job to manage the offense.


But, to play along, so.. if we can get another score, we STILL go into halftime down... and the defense hadn't stopped them the entire first quarter. (Until the very last drive, I believe.)


Yeah. Down by a touchdown. Then our defense came out and stopped the Steelers first drive. If we engineer a scoring drive, we tie the game up 17-all at home.

[Kaylore]

Issues that go (and have gone) far beyond the QB position.


Yes it does. But the change opened up the running game is spite of those struggles.

[Popps]

Because it was first and ten on the first play of that drive when he threw the interception. That drive started at 1:55. The Steelers got the ball in Denver territory with 1:48 on the clock. And because as a quarterback, it's Plummer's job to manage the offense.


Yeah. Down by a touchdown. Then our defense came out and stopped the Steelers first drive. If we engineer a scoring drive, we tie the game up 17-all at home.

Sure a lot of ifs there.

I'll stick with the factual reality of what happened... a total defensive melt-down that guys like Coyer, Shanahan and Wilson talked about in tones that sounded like someone had died.

Was the QB part of a team-wide problem that day.. sure. Was the QB the origin of those problems that day, absolutely not... just like the QB wasn't the origin of our other first-half playoff slaughters/defensive lay-downs.

I just hope we give Jay a defense at some point so he doesn't have to put up 40 every week for a lead to be safe.

[Popps]

Yes it does. But the change opened up the running game is spite of those struggles.

Again, I'm waiting for stats that support that. (Total pre-Jay, post-Jay)

Not selective... take the worst weeks stats... I mean total before and after, period.

[Taco John]

Sure a lot of ifs there.

I'll stick with the factual reality of what happened... a total defensive melt-down that guys like Coyer, Shanahan and Wilson talked about in tones that sounded like someone had died.

Was the QB part of a team-wide problem that day.. sure. Was the QB the origin of those problems that day, absolutely not... just like the QB wasn't the origin of our other first-half playoff slaughters/defensive lay-downs.

I just hope we give Jay a defense at some point so he doesn't have to put up 40 every week for a lead to be safe.

Yes. The factual reality of what happened is that Plummer threw away the game right before halftime when he had an opportunity to get us within reach. Instead of pulling us within 7 of the Steelers at home, he gave them the opportunity to go up 21 points on us.

That's the factual reality of what happened that day.

I'm glad you brought up Jay, because what he has shown is that he doesn't need an absolutely dominating defense to hang in there and make our team competitive. That last Bengals game was very similar to our game against the Steelers with a key difference: the offense executed. In the end, both the offense and the defense were able to hang in there together long enough to walk away with a win. That's exactly the type of game that we would have lost previously in a blow-out. It's exactly what I have been referring to. The offense didn't fix the defense. Not in the least. But what they did do was helpful to the defense. Do you want to make the case that our 7 minute, 99 yard drive didn't help out the defense? The Bengals next three drives were fruitless after that effort. With scoreboard pressure on them, they came out pressing and unfocused. Maybe even a little cold.

It's great to talk about defensive line pressure, but when your offense can't generate any scoreboard pressure in big games, don't you think that's a problem worth taking a look at?

It's a moot point now, because after the Steelers loss, instead of going after Bunkley or Hali, he went after a quarterback who could help generate that scoreboard pressure. That 99 yard drive stands as a testement that he made the right decision.

I understand where you're going with the concept of the defensive line being our biggest need on the team this past offseason, but don't mistake people on a message board THINKING that was our number one concern and Mike Shanahan DECIDING that a quarterback was the top priority.

[24champ]

Yes. The factual reality of what happened is that Plummer threw away the game right before halftime when he had an opportunity to get us within reach. Instead of pulling us within 7 of the Steelers at home, he gave them the opportunity to go up 21 points on us.

That's the factual reality of what happened that day.


The factual reality is that the defense sucked as much as Plummer did. Steelers were able to convert 3rd downs (10-16 converted) while our defense played soft and couldn't make a stop if their life depended on it. Big Ben was 21/29 on completions and threw for 275 yards and two touchdowns. You forget to mention what happened before the Plummer interception that you always love to bring up. The steelers drove 80 yards and chewed up the clock(about 7 minutes), yet somehow Plummer was supposed to bring the Broncos out of the hole when the defense was swiss cheese hmmm.

[Odysseus]

I understand where you're going with the concept of the defensive line being our biggest need on the team this past offseason, but don't mistake people on a message board THINKING that was our number one concern and Mike Shanahan DECIDING that a quarterback was the top priority.

Shanahan could have had Ed Reed and he took Lelie. :kiss:

There was not a defensive player in this past draft who was more important than picking up Jay Cutler.

The fact Shanahan stated with a dead pan smile that he was going after a QB early in the pre season and then he deals, deals, deals and then gets Cutler will remain one of the best off season stories in Broncos history for years to come.

Cutler, regardless of stats, has more tools in his tray than Plummer the day he held up his number 6. The trick to all sports is attitude not aptitude. The smartest guy with the wrong attitude even if you build a franchise around him will fail. I like what I'm seeing from this kid but he still needs to be seasoned. He doesn't get WHY just yet.

[Taco John]

The factual reality is that the defense sucked as much as Plummer did.

Indeed. They struggled to keep the Steelers out of the endzone. But when it was all said and done, they only gave up 13 points on drives that started from Steeler territory. The rest of the points came off of turnovers on drives that started on the Broncos side of the field.

....yet somehow Plummer was supposed to bring the Broncos out of the hole when the defense was swiss cheese hmmm.

The beautiful thing about Cutler is that he has the ability to throw the defense a rope. That's all I want from a field general at the end of the day. That's all I ever wanted from Plummer.

[Kaylore]

I'd rather we took Lito Sheppard than Reed right now, actually.

[Kaylore]

Again, I'm waiting for stats that support that. (Total pre-Jay, post-Jay)

Not selective... take the worst weeks stats... I mean total before and after, period.

You really can't cut them straight up that way because there are mitigating factors like quality of defense, whether Tatum was healthy and what each defense chose to attack.

The best we have is common opponents and even that is skewed slightly in favor of the Plummer run offense because San Diego was missing both key starters in defense and played the Chargers at home.

All I can tell you is what happens in the games and it's harder to stop the run when your safety is dropped deep to watch the pass than when he is in the box or on the line and Cutler completing passes over the middle forced the safety off the line for the first time all season.

However throwing some stats down as you request will only prove my point. Our sample size will be four games since that's all Cutler has played and we'll use Plummer's most recent so it most accurately compares the team as it is right now

Pre-Plummer:

AT Pittsburgh: 40 yards total (I'm excluding Walker's end around)
AT Oakland: 62 total yards.
San Diego: (Sans starters) 117 yards total
AT KC: 38 total yards

-Cutler -
Seattle: 108 total yards
AT San Diego: 162 total yards
AT Arizona: 106 total yards
Cincy: 127 total yards

So there's your numbers. The safeties dropping and even the defense in general looking for the pass has opened up the run more because the air attack actually scares them somewhat now. We did better on the ground with Cutler at QB in San Diego when they had all their starters play than we did against a weakened version of the same team at home with Plummer.

Not to mention, as I already said, we're the only team to get 100 yards on the ground against them this season.

I just checked, and we're actually one of three teams to have a 100 yard back against them at all. The only other two guys to do it are LJ in KC and Shaun Alexander in Seattle. Lofty company and it only happened when Cutler was starting.

Obviously there is more than enough here to make my point, but that's really not the story. It's the ability to complete passes over the middle of the field so that defenses are forced to defend it and not load the box against the run. Plummer couldn't do that at all this year. Cutler can and he has.

[-Slap-]

The factual reality is that the defense sucked as much as Plummer did. Steelers were able to convert 3rd downs (10-16 converted) while our defense played soft and couldn't make a stop if their life depended on it. Big Ben was 21/29 on completions and threw for 275 yards and two touchdowns. You forget to mention what happened before the Plummer interception that you always love to bring up. The steelers drove 80 yards and chewed up the clock(about 7 minutes), yet somehow Plummer was supposed to bring the Broncos out of the hole when the defense was swiss cheese hmmm.

Jake Plummer played four playoff games for us he was shut out of the end zone in the first half of three of them.

After the Pittsburgh choke job, Shanahan had enough. He replaced him with a green rookie who's literally twice as good and there are still people here squalling like infants.

You gotta love this place.

[400HZ]

You are dreaming my friend. I pray we get the chance to play SD again. If you can take us out three times in a year, we will concede defeat easily.

I know however, that will not happen. The confidence that Jay is playing with right now is enormous. The QB you saw in the 3rd quarter is going to be the one you see for 60 minutes.

Careful what you wish for.

Sorry to tell you, but two good games doesn't make you an all star. Right now, our pass rush alone will be enough to put a serious cramp in Cutler's game.

[-Slap-]

Your boy seems to be the one who struggles with pressure in his face.

[400HZ]

In this case that is not the reason. He has looked totally lost against the blitz. In fact the last two games he could not even see the blitz when it was coming from his RIGHT, forget the blind side. Moreover, his internal clock seems to be broken, he has no sense of when he has been back there far too long. This is not a small problem. He has some SERIOUS issues with the blitz at the moment, and when a QB can't even feel it when its coming from his throwing side, then he is basically a sitting duck because he can be easily hit with the blitz from either side. To be honest, I don't think you have the coaching to solve this problem by the playoffs, and the proof is that it has been getting worse the past couple of games, not better.

I don't see him looking lost. I see him going nuts scanning the field and trying to find an open man. Rivers was playing amazing until our receivers all got hurt. You don't think that that's a factor? It's common sense, buddy. Of course he can see the blitz coming from the right side, but he makes the decision to take the sack instead of forcing a bad pass. That's the right thing to do! Our defense and running game are both amazing right now, so Rivers doesn't need to force anything. We can play the field position game and win. Bottom line with Rivers is that when he needs to make a play, he makes the freaking play. That's what makes him special.

[400HZ]

Your boy seems to be the one who struggles with pressure in his face.

He looked like Unitas reborn against you guys. You're all clamoring for more blitzing, but look where some of your blitzes got your team ie LT catching that dumpoff undernearth and burning your whole team or Gates 2nd touchdown in game 2.

[-Slap-]

He looked like Unitas reborn against you guys. You're all clamoring for more blitzing, but look where some of your blitzes got your team ie LT catching that dumpoff undernearth and burning your whole team or Gates 2nd touchdown in game 2.

He'll look like Unitas as a Bolt the next time we play his squirrelly ass.

[400HZ]

He'll look like Unitas as a Bolt the next time we play his squirrelly ass.

I'm glad the Broncos got some fight back into them ;D

[Mile High Shack]

I'm glad the Broncos got some fight back into them ;D

all this steam you seem to be letting off against the broncos proves one thing

you fear us ;)

[400HZ]

all this steam you seem to be letting off against the broncos proves one thing

you fear us ;)

Hehe not this year. I have plenty of built up steam from years past, though.

[errand]

The article left out the fact that Rivers has been without his number 1, 2, and 4 receiver the past few games as well. At this point his receiving options boil down to either Gates or Vincent Jackson deep. .

It also fails to address the most important stat....Rivers still wins games. But, then again, being a Broncos fan on the Orangemane, you get use to people bitching about QB's who win games despite not having gaudy stats.

Once again someone posts a thread to prove that Jay is a more talented QB than Jake. Which is odd, because nobody ever said he wasn't more talented. Those that had concerns about a QB switch weren't worried about Jay's talent or skills, they were concerned with the message the move would send, and/or Jay's lack of NFL experience.

He's progressing along fine right now, and seems like the real deal. Hopefully he'll get better and become the QB we all hope he will.

[-Slap-]

The Colts were just heartless with Johnny U. Sending him off, with his crewcut and plaid sportscoats, to some AFL team in California where everybody was smoking dope. It would have been more humane to simply gutshoot him.

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/7595/babe22adhj6.jpg

[errand]

I don't buy the idea that Plummer is a good downfield passer at all.

You don't buy the idea that Jake is good at anything TJ. I do find it odd that you say this without realizing how you once claimed Griese had a good deep ball.

[elsid13]

You don't buy the idea that Jake is good at anything TJ. I do find it odd that you say this without realizing how you once claimed Griese had a good deep ball.

Come on errrand, you can not tell me that you actually think Plummer is better deep ball passer then Cutler.

Most of Plummer's deep pass came off the PA fake with wide open WR or when Lelie made a miracle catch last season. Cutler has better and touch on the ball from the pocket.

[errand]

Stats don't always show the whole picture. How many of Plummer's completions were because of spectacular catches by covered receivers? How many were a result of YAC? And so on...

Purely from observing the team, there is no question in my mind that Cutler is superior at throwing the deep ball from the pocket, scrambling outside the pocket, from the sidelines, flat on his back, left handed, drunk, concussed, or with his helmet on backwards.

You're pretty transparent, dude.

This is exactly what Merlin is trying to get at. Read the quoted text and see for yourself.

I pointed this out in another thread. Had Jake been our QB in the Cincy game, and did exactly the same things that Jay did, with the same exact results, the posting by the likes of you and the TJ's of the world would have been completely different.

With Jake as our QB, it would have been how he tried his best to give the game away with that early INT, and the D and Cincy's chowderheaded special teams blowing a PAT gave us the win.

With Jay as the the starter, of course it's just a great win for the kid and he's gonna be something special.

I suppose it never occurred to you that you don't have to talk down about Jake to build up Jay. Let's Jay's play speak for itself....those who doubt he'll be a good Qb will be convinced sooner or later. Jake won alot of games for the Broncos....why can't you clowns just thank him for his service and let him and you move on?

[Merlin]

You're all clamoring for more blitzing, but look where some of your blitzes got your team ie LT catching that dumpoff undernearth and burning your whole team or Gates 2nd touchdown in game 2.
You either don't understand the game, or don't understand the posts. LT ONLY did well against the ZONE blitz, which NO ONE is asking for here. It is an idiotic blitz package, especially when used against teams with strong RBs and TEs. However, when Rivers was given either a safety or CB blitz, he failed to perform (problem is they only did a couple).

Now as to your boy not looking lost, you have got to be kidding. Against KC, they blitz straight at him from his right side, THEY TELEGRAPHED IT, and he still failed to see it into the 4th qtr and stank it up. His internal clock was useless and could not even feel when there was trouble coming from the blind side even though >4 seconds had gone by. In Seattle he was just as bad. His incredible poor performance not only shows to the naked eye in those games (I even brought it up to you after the KC game, and you acknowledged it), but the stats more than validate it. If you want to just stick your head in the sand, that is great, I hope that is the SD culture; it means 1 or 2 games and you are OUT, since you have no idea of what is going on.

PS Many QBs have gone with far less tools and not totally failed as he has the past few games (e.g. NE, Philly, even KC). Good QBs don't go that blind against the blitz if they have 4-5 seconds to throw (which he did many times), and they do not miss telegraphed blitz packages coming from their throwing side.

[Taco John]

You don't buy the idea that Jake is good at anything TJ. I do find it odd that you say this without realizing how you once claimed Griese had a good deep ball.

I never claimed Griese had a good deep ball. I praised his effectiveness when he had time to throw.`

[errand]

Come on errrand, you can not tell me that you actually think Plummer is better deep ball passer then Cutler.

Most of Plummer's deep pass came off the PA fake with wide open WR or when Lelie made a miracle catch last season. Cutler has better and touch on the ball from the pocket.

Where did I say he was better than Jay at throwing it?

But be that as it may, how does Jay being better at throwing it mean that Jake sucked at throwing it? Warren moon threw a nice deep ball...does that mean Elway didn't? Of course not.

Wow, Lelie made so many "miracle" catches (makes me wonder why we'd get rid of such a miracle worker like him)....does that mean we discount any other passes that were miraculously caught by Broncos WR's?

Should we discount Jay's pass to Marshall?

Should we discount the Drive because Mark Jackson made a great catch of a high pass on 3rd and 18?

Or the overtime game winning drive in the same game because of Steve Watson's fingertip grab?

Should we discount the DriveII vs Houston because John just lobbed the ball to a wide open Vance Johnson who then sprinted 30 of the 44 yards we gained on it to set up the game winning FG (YAC)?

Should we discount the win over the Redskins in '95 when John put the ball up for grabs and Rod smith came down with it between two defenders?

[Merlin]

Pre-Plummer:

AT Pittsburgh: 40 yards total (I'm excluding Walker's end around)
AT Oakland: 62 total yards.
San Diego: (Sans starters) 117 yards total
AT KC: 38 total yards

-Cutler -
Seattle: 108 total yards
AT San Diego: 162 total yards
AT Arizona: 106 total yards
Cincy: 127 total yardsYou were right in your original assessment that they two could not really be compared (although I think your argument is valid regarding Cutler eventually making the running game better). You can't really compare the SD games because Denver was getting their collective a$$ handed to them in SD, thus the running game would have been more available, and the revers was true in Denver, especially since Denver was leading (BY 17 PTS HALF WAY THROUGH THE 3rd, but don't blame the D) in Denver. In one game SD would have been more than happy to allow the running game, in the other SD would have gone all out to stop it.

[errand]

So Cutler did help that part of the game because he started involving the tight ends more and forcing the safeties to back off..

You don't suppose that this is just as much a refelction of Scheffler finally grasping the offense as well?

He's a rookie too, right? Perhaps Jake couldn't force the safeties to back off because Scheffler wasn't performing as well then as he is now?

The point is Kaylore is that now when we win games all we hear is how it's solely because of the QB switch, not because other guys are starting to perform better as well.

[errand]

To be fair to Tatum, I don't think he's necessarily lying, but instead trying to play through pain. Some can get away with it. Unfortunately, he can't.

Hopefully Mike will explain to Tatum the difference between playing with pain and playing injured

[Merlin]

Should we discount...?
How about the fact that JP still had WR close to the lead in yds/catch again this yr despite Lelie's departure, AND LELIE IS NOWHERE NEAR LEADING THE LEAGUE. Wait, in Denver it is all because of Lelie, yet in Atla., where they have an even more dangerous running game and far more powerful arm Lelie can't even come close to competing? Yes, it must be all Lelie.

BTW, Walkers yds per game almost dropped in half since Cutler came in, should we say he is too stupid to not see/use his best weapon? Of course not, but the arguments you guys are stretching for are just borderline moronic. The worst part is that there is no reason for them. NO ONE is arguing that JP has better tools, or that he will/is the better QB. The problem is that in order to justify your ADORATION for Cutler, you guys develop juvenile arguments to demonize JP (even though his yrs here were head and shoulders BETTER than SOBs, and until last year Taco didn't want to admit it).

Plummer will be gone, he is not a better QB than Cutler, but he does do some things better than Cutler (for now?), e.g. passing out of the pocket (yes, Plummer is perhaps the best in the league), and PA (Cutler still does not fake it as well, but give him time).

[Garcia Bronco]

You're pretty transparent, dude.

This is exactly what Merlin is trying to get at. Read the quoted text and see for yourself.

I pointed this out in another thread. Had Jake been our QB in the Cincy game, and did exactly the same things that Jay did, with the same exact results, the posting by the likes of you and the TJ's of the world would have been completely different.

With Jake as our QB, it would have been how he tried his best to give the game away with that early INT, and the D and Cincy's chowderheaded special teams blowing a PAT gave us the win.

With Jay as the the starter, of course it's just a great win for the kid and he's gonna be something special.

I suppose it never occurred to you that you don't have to talk down about Jake to build up Jay. Let's Jay's play speak for itself....those who doubt he'll be a good Qb will be convinced sooner or later. Jake won alot of games for the Broncos....why can't you clowns just thank him for his service and let him and you move on?

I agree with you, BUT Jake is a ten year vet....not a 4th game rookie.

[errand]

So, we're basically in a throw-only hole, thanks to our swiss-cheese defense. I suppose the upside is that they didn't bend over for a playoff record like they did against Mr. Awesome a year earlier. (Or was it two? Or defensive melt-downs sort of blend together after a while.)



It was both years Popps.

I do believe that Pittsburgh scored TD's on 4 their first 5 drives in the AFC title bout. If only Jake could learn to tackle better, dammit.

[errand]

It's a moot point now, because after the Steelers loss, instead of going after Bunkley or Hali, he went after a quarterback who could help generate that scoreboard pressure. That 99 yard drive stands as a testement that he made the right decision.

I understand where you're going with the concept of the defensive line being our biggest need on the team this past offseason, but don't mistake people on a message board THINKING that was our number one concern and Mike Shanahan DECIDING that a quarterback was the top priority.

....so I guess the QB position isn't just an afterthought, then, huh?

Mike also traded for Javon Walker....does that mean he thinks Rod Smith annually leading the team in dropped passes was a roadblock as well?

Yeah he drafted Jay Cutler...even traded up to get him. Doesn't mean he had lost all faith in Jake. He like the rest of the world knew that Jay was a potential franchise QB. Too good to pass up when it came our time to draft.

[Merlin]

He like the rest of the world knew that Jay was a potential franchise QB. Too good to pass up when it came our time to draft.
And he clearly stated that if Jay was not available he would have chosen Muroney (sp?); i.e. he did not see QB as a critical concern for the 2006 season.

[errand]

I agree with you, BUT Jake is a ten year vet....not a 4th game rookie.

That has nothing to do with it Garcia. Jay has made throws Jake can't, and Jake has gotten out of jams Jay can't.

Like Popps and I have said...nobody doubted the kid's ability. Nobody blasted the pick. The debate was when to start him, and if starting him while we still had a shot at postseason play would be a good thing. Turns out it's working OK for us so far.

[Taco John]

And he clearly stated that if Jay was not available he would have chosen Muroney (sp?); i.e. he did not see QB as a critical concern for the 2006 season.


Actually, if Leinart and Cutler weren't available, then he was going Maroney.

[Taco John]

....so I guess the QB position isn't just an afterthought, then, huh?

Mike also traded for Javon Walker....does that mean he thinks Rod Smith annually leading the team in dropped passes was a roadblock as well?

Yeah he drafted Jay Cutler...even traded up to get him. Doesn't mean he had lost all faith in Jake. He like the rest of the world knew that Jay was a potential franchise QB. Too good to pass up when it came our time to draft.



You can plant your head in the sand about Shanahan's intention of replacing Jake with Jay if you want. It doesn't matter to me anymore. The proof is on the field. You can say whatever you want about Shanahan's confidence in Jake. I'm still going to be watching Cutler on the field this week.

[errand]

Actually, if Leinart and Cutler weren't available, then he was going Maroney.

You make it sound like he was fed up with Jake and decided he had to go period.

So there were other options Mike considered at that position in the draft? Seems to me like he was going to draft the best player on the board regardless of position played. He just had Jay and Matt rated higher than Maroney.

[Taco John]

You make it sound like he was fed up with Jake and decided he had to go period.

Yeah. That's exactly how I make it sound because that's the way it was. That's why Shanahan had been working his way up the draft boards since March the year previous. It's not much of a secret anymore that the Leinart hype combined with the way Plummer played in the post season had Shanahan positioning his way up the draft board.


So there were other options Mike considered at that position in the draft? Seems to me like he was going to draft the best player on the board regardless of position played. He just had Jay and Matt rated higher than Maroney.

No. What Shanahan was going to do was walk away from that draft with a quarterback any way he could. He wasn't going to sit back and wait for one to fall to his lap and take the best player available in the Broncos draft position. He was going to move up if it was possible to make certain that he didn't walk out of there without a replacement for Jake... and if for some reason it didn't work out for him, he would take the best player on their board. He wasn't going to reach for a quarterback in the first round if one of his top two choices weren't there. I've heard Brodie Croyle was on his list as well for later in the draft.

[errand]

You can plant your head in the sand about Shanahan's intention of replacing Jake with Jay if you want. It doesn't matter to me anymore. The proof is on the field. You can say whatever you want about Shanahan's confidence in Jake. I'm still going to be watching Cutler on the field this week.


Yeah, just like Dan Reeves intended on replacing Elway immediately with Maddox.

They call them "QBOTF" for a reason TJ. Had his intention been to replace Jake immediately, he wouldn't have exercised that option to extend Jake thru '09...and he probably would have given Jay alot more snaps during training camp and went forward with the future.

Instead he did the right thing which was let one player outperform the other in practice. You haven't cornered the market in thinking Jake played his way out of a job. He did. Nobody is arguing that. Jake is on the bench because he wasn't playing as well as he should have, for whatever reason. Jay is playing now because he outperformed Jake.

[Taco John]

Yeah, just like Dan Reeves intended on replacing Elway immediately with Maddox.

They call them "QBOTF" for a reason TJ. Had his intention been to replace Jake immediately, he wouldn't have exercised that option to extend Jake thru '09...and he probably would have given Jay alot more snaps during training camp and went forward with the future.

Instead he did the right thing which was let one player outperform the other in practice. You haven't cornered the market in thinking Jake played his way out of a job. He did. Nobody is arguing that. Jake is on the bench because he wasn't playing as well as he should have, for whatever reason. Jay is playing now because he outperformed Jake.


I never said anything about immediately. His intention was to replace Jake. I don't think Shanahan thought it would be this season. It seems apparent that he thought he'd replace him next season, with this season being Jake's final year here. I've never said differently. Hell, I went into this preseason saying Jake gave us the best chance to win *this* year (though I changed my mind after watching the rookie in the preseason, and especially after the Rams & Chiefs games). Nobody could have known that Jake was going to play the entire season like he was in a playoff game. But he did, and his ticket out of town has been punched.

[Tredici]

Aren't stats merely a reflection of game situations? If so, let's review. Throw up 2, 3, 4 interceptions a game, get behind and what play is going to get you back into the game? Could be the long ball.

If the game is managed and you are picking up yardage with the short to medium range throws, guess which play can be used less? Ummm.... the long ball.

It's one of the most exciting plays in football and we've been shown Cutler has the capability of executing it. Personally, I don't care if Jake, Brian, Bubby, or John completed more of them. None of them are taking the field on Sunday. What I care about is the fact Cutler can huck the ball from the 30 to the 30. Stats will come.

[hertzc]

We can also assume San Diego screwed the pooch by dumping Brees for Rivers.

Sounds like to me like he sends a river of piss down his leg whenever you blitz him.

Yeah we sure did screw the pooch, 13 - 2 AFC west champs... wow horrible descision. :rofl:

[Tredici]

I never said anything about immediately. His intention was to replace Jake. I don't think Shanahan thought it would be this season. It seems apparent that he thought he'd replace him next season, with this season being Jake's final year here. I've never said differently. Hell, I went into this preseason saying Jake gave us the best chance to win *this* year (though I changed my mind after watching the rookie in the preseason, and especially after the Rams & Chiefs games). Nobody could have known that Jake was going to play the entire season like he was in a playoff game. But he did, and his ticket out of town has been punched.


I'd almost bet dollars to donuts it was Pat Bowlen's decision to start Jay Cutler. When Pat personally came into the locker room in Arizona to hand the game ball to number 6 my suspicions solidified a bit more.

[Tredici]

Yeah we sure did screw the pooch, 13 - 2 AFC west champs... wow horrible descision. :rofl:


Happy with that? What are you doing taking lessons from Chief fan?

[bpc]

Yeah we sure did screw the pooch, 13 - 2 AFC west champs... wow horrible descision. :rofl:

Does that speak more of the Chargers ability or the rest of the AFC's inability? All of the teams that played well last year in the AFC have come back to the pack per say including Denver, Indy, and Pittsburgh.

And as with fans that have never met success, you all are bragging about a good regular season... it is those regular seasons that make playoff failures that much harder to deal with. SD isn't holding the super bowl championship yet.

Enjoy this season and hope you make the most of it. In terms of talent, Denver was trailing SD drastically this season but as the year has gone on we are making up the difference quick with our young players.

[Taco John]

I'd almost bet dollars to donuts it was Pat Bowlen's decision to start Jay Cutler. When Pat personally came into the locker room in Arizona to hand the game ball to number 6 my suspicions solidified a bit more.

Nice observation. I wouldn't be suprised if Shanahan were getting some pressure from the top.

[hertzc]

Happy with that? What are you doing taking lessons from Chief fan?

Happy with what? being 13 - 2 and being tied for the best record in the NFL... uhh yeah I am happy about that, I still am failing to find why that makes me like a chief fan. If the Broncos had swept us this year you'd be on our forums talking smack all day like you guys did last year, unfortunately though for you donk fans you are struggling just to make it into the playoffs.

[Merlin]

Happy with that? What are you doing taking lessons from Chief fan?
LOL Hilarious! :~ohyah!:
It reminds me of Chief fan at 13-3, when many people argued their D was going to kill them, and they stuck their collective heads in the sand. Then the yr after, they made NO CHANGES in personnel, but hired the god of defence Gonether (or at least he should be), and ignored all comments regarding their lack of personnel.

Chief fan, a very apt description.

[hertzc]

Does that speak more of the Chargers ability or the rest of the AFC's inability? All of the teams that played well last year in the AFC have come back to the pack per say including Denver, Indy, and Pittsburgh.

And as with fans that have never met success, you all are bragging about a good regular season... it is those regular seasons that make playoff failures that much harder to deal with. SD isn't holding the super bowl championship yet.

Enjoy this season and hope you make the most of it. In terms of talent, Denver was trailing SD drastically this season but as the year has gone on we are making up the difference quick with our young players.

No doubt, you guys have some good young players. But if you look at our team, every single player is young for the most part. I don't know if you guys are able to hold your own against us yet, I mean the team Cutler did good against is Arizona, and even though you beat cinci you can't take all the credit. Hopefully you guys didn't use all your luck up on that missed extra point, because you are gonna need it if you play us again.

[Merlin]

yeah I am happy about that, I still am failing to find why that makes me like a chief fan.
Have you bothered to even peruse your QBs stats of late, or at least critically analyze his performance against the blitz? Playoff football is a different game. Ds change as do Os (and our D can vouch for Os changing), and if he is hitting the wall now, wait until he sees the locomotive heading his way.

PS I do think his problems can be addressed, but I doubt you have the coaching staff. Your HC chokes under pressure, and the coaches have had 3-4 weeks to address some of Rivers's short comings against the blitz, and it does not look like they have accomplished anything. On the contrary, he has been getting worse by the week.

[elsid13]

Nice observation. I wouldn't be suprised if Shanahan were getting some pressure from the top.

Tell the truth TJ, the shanahan was getting pressure from the old mane, and didn't want to feel its wrath.* ;D


*wrath would have include but wasn't limited to: have Garcia live in tent in Shanahan's front yard, Hotrod showing up like Uncle Eddie from Christmas Vacation, and Mock sending him PMs dawn to dusk.

[-Slap-]

You don't suppose that this is just as much a refelction of Scheffler finally grasping the offense as well?

He's a rookie too, right? Perhaps Jake couldn't force the safeties to back off because Scheffler wasn't performing as well then as he is now?

The point is Kaylore is that now when we win games all we hear is how it's solely because of the QB switch, not because other guys are starting to perform better as well.

No, guys like Scheffler and Marshall started playing like studs as soon as Jay was inserted in the lineup purely by coincidence.

[hertzc]

Have you bothered to even peruse your QBs stats of late, or at least critically analyze his performance against the blitz? Playoff football is a different game. Ds change as do Os (and our D can vouch for Os changing), and if he is hitting the wall now, wait until he sees the locomotive heading his way.

PS I do think his problems can be addressed, but I doubt you have the coaching staff. Your HC chokes under pressure, and the coaches have had 3-4 weeks to address some of Rivers's short comings against the blitz, and it does not look like they have accomplished anything. On the contrary, he has been getting worse by the week.

Yeah I have persued River's stats, and although nothing to write home about he finds ways to win games, and that is what's important. You can base your descisions about players on stats all you want, but the fact is that when it matters Rivers delivers every single time if given the chance. I'll just go by the stat that matters the most, and that is the W

As for Marty choaking, well that remains to be seen, history tends to repeat itself which isn't good for us, but can you honestly look at how we are playing and say Marty is acting like the same coach as before.

Anyway, this is the Broncos forum so i'm not expecting you guys to be open minded about the Chargers, because most of you dislike us a lot, and the feeling is for the most part mutual, but every once and a while you have some educated fans that didn't just buy a brand new pair of knee pads and apply for the job of Cutler's Servant.

Oh, btw this is Rivers first year starting, he's going to have some growing pains, don't count him out yet.

[Tredici]

[QUOTE=hertzc;1421602]

Anyway, this is the Broncos forum so i'm not expecting you guys to be open minded about the Chargers, because most of you dislike us a lot, and the feeling is for the most part mutual, but every once and a while you have some educated fans that didn't just buy a brand new pair of knee pads and apply for the job of Cutler's Servant.

QUOTE]

Well, actually, all of us wanted some of those knee pads but we were told they were all sold out due to the River's worship in San Diego....

(Get off your knees first boy.)

[-Slap-]

Yeah we sure did screw the pooch, 13 - 2 AFC west champs... wow horrible descision. :rofl:

Get used to horrible decisions. Now that the league has a book on your squirrelly sidearm-flinging tempermental quarterback, you'll be seeing more horrible decisions.

[Tredici]

The Chargers are winning because of LT.

Period.

I don't know why anyone is giving Rivers a second thought. Drew Brees is a more accomplished QB. Matter of fact I think he was the Free Agent pickup of the year. What he has done in New Orleans is fantastic. There is no comparison between him and Rivers right now.

[BroncoInferno]

Get used to horrible decisions. Now that the league has a book on your squirrelly sidearm-flinging tempermental quarterback, you'll be seeing more horrible decisions.

Rivers will be making life difficult for us for years to come. He is going to be a good one, don't let a slump his first year starting fool you.

[hertzc]

[QUOTE=hertzc;1421602]

Anyway, this is the Broncos forum so i'm not expecting you guys to be open minded about the Chargers, because most of you dislike us a lot, and the feeling is for the most part mutual, but every once and a while you have some educated fans that didn't just buy a brand new pair of knee pads and apply for the job of Cutler's Servant.

QUOTE]

Well, actually, all of us wanted some of those knee pads but we were told they were all sold out due to the River's worship in San Diego....

(Get off your knees first boy.)

boy? lol whatever. Like I said every once in a while you have educated fans, this obviously isn't one of those times.

As for worshipping Rivers, how can you even go there when I wouldn't be surprised if you guys started a religion around Elway.

[Northman]

You're pretty transparent, dude.

This is exactly what Merlin is trying to get at. Read the quoted text and see for yourself.

I pointed this out in another thread. Had Jake been our QB in the Cincy game, and did exactly the same things that Jay did, with the same exact results, the posting by the likes of you and the TJ's of the world would have been completely different.

With Jake as our QB, it would have been how he tried his best to give the game away with that early INT, and the D and Cincy's chowderheaded special teams blowing a PAT gave us the win.

With Jay as the the starter, of course it's just a great win for the kid and he's gonna be something special.

I suppose it never occurred to you that you don't have to talk down about Jake to build up Jay. Let's Jay's play speak for itself....those who doubt he'll be a good Qb will be convinced sooner or later. Jake won alot of games for the Broncos....why can't you clowns just thank him for his service and let him and you move on?


Seems like someone needs to take their own advice.

[Popps]

Nice observation. I wouldn't be suprised if Shanahan were getting some pressure from the top.

Wait, so Shanahan needed pressure to start Jay?

I thought he was so fed up with him that he couldn't stand to look at him another day?

So, he waits until week 12 and needed pressure to start this kid that he drafted?

But, I thought Mike was in a panic situation over the QB spot?

Like I said, Taco. Just say "I hate Jake Plummer." It'll make a lot more sense than the mish-mosh of BS you stew up trying to look "right" about this whole thing.

[Merlin]

I wouldn't be surprised if you guys started a religion around Elway.
I hoped you crossed yourself and said 10 hail marys when you wrote that ;)

[-Slap-]

Rivers will be making life difficult for us for years to come. He is going to be a good one, don't let a slump his first year starting fool you.

What fooled people was him playing that well initially. He's closer to the quarterback we saw the last month than the one we saw the first three months.

[BroncoInferno]

What fooled people was him playing that well initially. He's closer to the quarterback we saw the last month than the one we saw the first three months.

Nah. I've predicted that he would be great QB since he was drafted, and his struggles his first year starting don't change that. He'll adjust. His instincts for the game are unbelievable. He'll be better than Brees long term. Of course, I'd be happy to be wrong, but I'm not ;D

[Tredici]

[QUOTE=Tredici;1421605]

boy? lol whatever. Like I said every once in a while you have educated fans, this obviously isn't one of those times.

As for worshipping Rivers, how can you even go there when I wouldn't be surprised if you guys started a religion around Elway.

Nice try. The point being, you can't be "religiously" defending Rivers and then call foul on the Bronco fans for being excited about Cutler. Going back a few years to latch onto Elway won't change the fact you got exposed for the exact same thing you were accusing Bronco fans of. If you prefer I can call you son. Or sonny.

Let's be real. Rivers is the one weakness on the Chargers right now -doesn't mean he won't or can't get it together but it's one of those little nagging worries - to add to Marty's annual choke job. Should Brees be behind center that team is tight and probably have less worries in the upcoming playoffs.

[-Slap-]

[QUOTE=hertzc;1421616]

Nice try. The point being, you can't be "religiously" defending Rivers and then call foul on the Bronco fans for being excited about Cutler. Going back a few years to latch onto Elway won't change the fact you got exposed for the exact same thing you were accusing Bronco fans of. If you prefer I can call you son. Or sonny.

Let's be real. Rivers is the one weakness on the Chargers right now -doesn't mean he won't or can't get it together but it's one of those little nagging worries - to add to Marty's annual choke job. Should Brees be behind center that team is tight and probably have less worries in the upcoming playoffs.

Their secondary can be had, too.

[Tredici]

[QUOTE=Tredici;1421686]

Their secondary can be had, too.

Well their wide receivers are a little nicked up too...

[24champ]

Jake Plummer played four playoff games for us he was shut out of the end zone in the first half of three of them.

Yeah you know why? Because the opponents have the ball for practically the entire half. Denver forced Indianapolis to punt only twice. The Colts scored on drives of 76, 87, 52, 40, 75, 80 and 45 yards in the second meeting. Also Indianapolis converted five of its seven first-half possessions into touchdowns for an insurmountable 35-3 advantage. Manning threw for 360 yards and three of his four touchdowns in the opening 30 minutes while the Colts amassed 395 of their 529 yards in that dizzying span. I don't know Slap, Jake was a good QB and was what we needed for the time being, better than what I can say about SOB and the other scrubs we had after Elway but the Defense stunk it up so bad in those playoff games. Better hope Cutler can hang in there with Manning or Brady when our D is swiss cheese.

[Blueflame]

The Chargers are winning because of LT.

Period.

I don't know why anyone is giving Rivers a second thought. Drew Brees is a more accomplished QB. Matter of fact I think he was the Free Agent pickup of the year. What he has done in New Orleans is fantastic. There is no comparison between him and Rivers right now.

No doubt... the two names that keep coming up as candidates for the league MVP award are Tomlinson and Brees. To think... had the Boltz management made a different decision re: the QB position, they could have had both of those guys on one team. IMHO, the Boltz with Brees would be far more formidable than the Boltz with Rivers.

[Taco John]

Wait, so Shanahan needed pressure to start Jay?




I don't think he needed pressure. I just wouldn't be suprised if he was getting some from Bowlen on the matter. I think Bowlen saw what everybody else saw: a quarterback who was a roadblock.


It'll make a lot more sense than the mish-mosh of BS you stew up trying to look "right" about this whole thing.


There's a difference between trying to look right, and the effortlessness of actually just being right. What you do is try to look right. Hence all the distortions you make, such as the idea that people who wanted a quarterback switch never thought the team had other problems. That's trying to look right, as even in the face of being wrong, you need to save face, so you've chosen to make up an aspect of the argument and assign it as though someone else has been advancing the position.

My argument has always been that starting Jay this season was the right thing to do, for several reasons, the most important one being that he gives our team the best chance to win NOW. I don't have to try to look right here. All I have to do is effortlessly watch how right I was.

[-Slap-]

Yeah you know why? Because the opponents have the ball for practically the entire half. Denver forced Indianapolis to punt only twice. The Colts scored on drives of 76, 87, 52, 40, 75, 80 and 45 yards in the second meeting. Also Indianapolis converted five of its seven first-half possessions into touchdowns for an insurmountable 35-3 advantage. Manning threw for 360 yards and three of his four touchdowns in the opening 30 minutes while the Colts amassed 395 of their 529 yards in that dizzying span. I don't know Slap, Jake was a good QB and was what we needed for the time being, better than what I can say about SOB and the other scrubs we had after Elway but the Defense stunk it up so bad in those playoff games. Better hope Cutler can hang in there with Manning or Brady when our D is swiss cheese.

Nothing you said explains why the Colts mediocre defense was able to shut Jake and the offense out in the first half of both meetings. Or why Pittsburgh was able to do it to Jake in Denver.

Stop me if this is too advanced for anybody, but after a team scores a touchdown, the rules clearly state they must kick the ball back to the other team so they can play offense.

I don't care if Peyton threw a goddamn 80 yard touchdown pass on every offensive play, the Broncos offense still had their possessions and Joke couldn't do Jack-Diddley-Straw on any of them. Two years in a row at Indy and then the same crap against Pittsburgh at home.

Is it any wonder Shanahan traded more than halfway up the draft board for a new quarterback?

[Odysseus]

I'd almost bet dollars to donuts it was Pat Bowlen's decision to start Jay Cutler. When Pat personally came into the locker room in Arizona to hand the game ball to number 6 my suspicions solidified a bit more.

Cutler had to prove himself to the management, owners, coaches, players and see what kind of team player he was. Evidently on this day he did and said all the right things and nothing left to do but move forward.

[Mile High Shack]

Nothing you said explains why the Colts mediocre defense was able to shut Jake and the offense out in the first half of both meetings. Or why Pittsburgh was able to do it to Jake in Denver.

Stop me if this is too advanced for anybody, but after a team scores a touchdown, the rules clearly state they must kick the ball back to the other team so they can play offense.

I don't care if Peyton threw a goddamn 80 yard touchdown pass on every offensive play, the Broncos offense still had their possessions and Joke couldn't do Jack-Diddley-Straw on any of them. Two years in a row at Indy and then the same crap against Pittsburgh at home.

Is it any wonder Shanahan traded more than halfway up the draft board for a new quarterback?

it won't matter, superbowl teams don't outscore teams, they stop other teams

Jake was part of the problem, but not the whole problem

until we fix our defense, this team will never win a championship

[Odysseus]

What fooled people was him playing that well initially. He's closer to the quarterback we saw the last month than the one we saw the first three months.

People don't get how smart this kid is. He's not a meat head. You don't have to repeat stuff to him until even people watching this start to roll their eyes.

He's still raw and has a long way to go. The Broncos play calling is slowing down defenses and in an effort sheild Cutler. They are going to have to kick the training wheels off against San Francisco just to prove to some of the playoff teams what this kid can do.

[Blueflame]

it won't matter, superbowl teams don't outscore teams, they stop other teams

Jake was part of the problem, but not the whole problem

until we fix our defense, this team will never win a championship

Wouldn't you say it's more difficult for any defense to do that (stop other teams) when an offensive possession takes a whopping 30 seconds (if that) to go 3 and out... or commit a turnover? A win usually takes a joint effort from all 3 squads: offense, defense, and special teams. It's more difficult for the offense or defense to do their jobs if special teams keeps allowing the other team a short field while allowing us to be pinned inside the 10. If the defense lays down and allows the other team to score at will, it puts more pressure on the offense to make up for those points. And when the offense isn't carrying their share of the load, the defense is on the field, often long enough for fatigue... or even injuries... to become a factor. We need a balance... and to stay relatively healthy... to win a championship. In my opinion, anyway.

[watermock]

Rivers will be making life difficult for us for years to come. He is going to be a good one, don't let a slump his first year starting fool you.

It's not his first year unlike Cutler. It's his third year.

[BroncoInferno]

It's not his first year unlike Cutler. It's his third year.

That gives him advantage for sure, but there are things you can't learn how to deal with without facing the live bullets. He'll be fine.

[Taco John]

it won't matter, superbowl teams don't outscore teams, they stop other teams

Jake was part of the problem, but not the whole problem

until we fix our defense, this team will never win a championship

New England outscored Philadelphia 24-21. Both teams traded scores, until New England's offense put up an extra field goal.

That's how New England beat Carolina, in a 32 to 29 battle. The best part of the game was the 4th quarter, when neither team could make a stop. New England put up 18 points in the fourth quarter there. Carolina put up 19. It wasn't defense that was the difference that day.

Tampa Bay beat Oakland 48-21. There's no doubt that Tampa Bay had a good defense, but their offense came out and hung 27 points on the Raiders, executing on drive after drive.

In New England's win against the St. Louis Rams, their defense folded in the fourth quarter, giving up 14 points to the surging Rams. The difference between winning and losing for the Pats that day was the fact that they had executed two touchdown drives in the second quarter and their offense kept scoring field goals in the second half. They almost lost the game on defense, but the Titans fell a yard short.

Even Baltimore put up 34 points against the Giants. That's with Trent Dilfer running the show.

Remember when we came out against the Atlanta Falcons and put scoreboard pressure on them? Defense was a big part of that win, but in the end, it was an offensive player who got the MVP that game.

That's not mentioning the year before, when neither defense seemed able to stop either quarterback from driving the team down the field. We won that game in a 31-24 shootout that saw scores in every quarter of football.

You're right that Jake was part of the problem, but not the whole problem. Our defense is going to give up points. I've never thought otherwise. It's why I was complaining even after losses and big performances by our Defense. I was complaining because I knew our defense couldn't keep that pace up, and that we were going to need some offense at some point in time.

Well, we're not getting that help on offense, and it's not solely encumbant on the defense to win games. We can finally attack our opponents as a team, with both sides of the ball contributing.

[Man-Goblin]

I suppose it never occurred to you that you don't have to talk down about Jake to build up Jay.

First of all, I was being fecetious with the whole drunk, helmet backwards stuff.

But there are numerous quotes with me supporting Jake and thanking him for his service and good play. In fact, just for fun, here's one from after it became clear that his days were numbered as the starter:

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=1366702&highlight=jake#post1366702

Didn't read any posts on this thread except the first one. But I will always be appreciative of Jake and what he's done here. I don't know the stats, but he'll probably leave with one of, if not, the highest winning percentage in the history of this team for a starting quarterback.

I supported him until the end of his tenure and actually have stated that Shanahan made the change at the right time.

Obviously, it never occured to you that it is in fact possible to say that Cutler has superior skills to Jake without bashing Plummer.

[No1BroncoFan]

Because it was first and ten on the first play of that drive when he threw the interception. That drive started at 1:55. The Steelers got the ball in Denver territory with 1:48 on the clock. And because as a quarterback, it's Plummer's job to manage the offense.





Yeah. Down by a touchdown. Then our defense came out and stopped the Steelers first drive. If we engineer a scoring drive, we tie the game up 17-all at home.

Since Ifs and Buts are candy and nuts and we all had a merry Christmas... If our defense doesn't put us in a 14-point hole maybe we're not throwing on first and ten and maybe, just maybe, Plummer isn't trying to do it all.

It's a team game guys. Our team got the snot kicked out of them that day. Defensive line, offensive line, quarterback, everyone. Pinniing the blame on Plummer as so many here have done is so near sighted it's funny. Sure, Plummer was in desperation mode and that's where he plays his worst, but there is no way you can look at that game objectively and pin it all on Plummer.

Ben

[Taco John]

Since Ifs and Buts are candy and nuts and we all had a merry Christmas... If our defense doesn't put us in a 14-point hole maybe we're not throwing on first and ten and maybe, just maybe, Plummer isn't trying to do it all.


That's an easy, effortless one to counter. Our offense gave up four turnovers. IF our offense doesn't give up four turnovers, then maybe, just maybe our defense doesn't have to do it all. Maybe you weren't aware of this fact, but our defense only gave up 13 points on drives that originated on the Steelers side of the field. That's a pretty significant stat.



It's a team game guys. Our team got the snot kicked out of them that day. Defensive line, offensive line, quarterback, everyone. Pinniing the blame on Plummer as so many here have done is so near sighted it's funny. Sure, Plummer was in desperation mode and that's where he plays his worst, but there is no way you can look at that game objectively and pin it all on Plummer.




I'm not here to tell you that it was all Plummer's fault that day. Never have said that. I *AM* here to tell you that he was a problem, and not a solution.

[Mile High Shack]

That's an easy, effortless one to counter. Our offense gave up four turnovers. IF our offense doesn't give up four turnovers, then maybe, just maybe our defense doesn't have to do it all. Maybe you weren't aware of this fact, but our defense only gave up 13 points on drives that originated on the Steelers side of the field. That's a pretty significant stat.






I'm not here to tell you that it was all Plummer's fault that day. Never have said that. I *AM* here to tell you that he was a problem, and not a solution.


TJ, even when our offense didn't turn it over, our defense didn't do a thing all day to stop them

It wouldn't of mattered, Pitt's OC had a better plan than our old man at DC and he could not adjust to it........PItt could've scored 60 points that game if they wanted to

[Taco John]

TJ, even when our offense didn't turn it over, our defense didn't do a thing all day to stop them

It wouldn't of mattered, Pitt's OC had a better plan than our old man at DC and he could not adjust to it........PItt could've scored 60 points that game if they wanted to


Blah blah blah... Hyperbole... Rhetoric... Blah blah blah...

You betcha Shack. 13 points is what they scored from their own side of the field. Everything else came on the short field after turnovers. That's just the facts.

[Mile High Shack]

Blah blah blah... Hyperbole... Rhetoric... Blah blah blah...

You betcha Shack. 13 points is what they scored from their own side of the field. Everything else came on the short field after turnovers. That's just the facts.

kettle, black, pot

hello

[Taco John]

kettle, black, pot

hello

Not even. You have to make things up like "They could have scored 60 points if they wanted to." As if they didn't want to score 60 points or something.

I'm just giving facts. The fact is, our defense gave up 13 points on drives that started from the Steelers side of the field. Everything else came on the short field off of turnovers. That's not rehtoric. That's not hyperbole. That's just the facts.

[No1BroncoFan]

You can plant your head in the sand about Shanahan's intention of replacing Jake with Jay if you want. It doesn't matter to me anymore. The proof is on the field. You can say whatever you want about Shanahan's confidence in Jake. I'm still going to be watching Cutler on the field this week.
Here's the difference between the Jake Bashers and the Plummer Defenders. The Jake Bashers will be watching Cutler while the Plummer Defenders will be watching the Broncos.

I don't give a rosy red one who's under center as long as we're winning and I hope I never become so blind as to believe a loss (or a win) can ever be laid at the feet of one guy.

Ben

[Taco John]

I thought the difference between the Jake Bashers and the Plummer defenders was that the Jake Bashers recognized bad play when they saw it. I think it's the same difference between the Darrent Williams bashers and the Darrent Williams defenders. I don't think the fact that there are people being critical of Darrent Williams, that they are any less a Broncos fan.

I'm pretty sure that we all root for the Broncos.

/for what it's worth, I hope to be watching Foxworth on the field this week.

[24champ]

Nothing you said explains why the Colts mediocre defense was able to shut Jake and the offense out in the first half of both meetings. Or why Pittsburgh was able to do it to Jake in Denver.


Easy because we were in the hole and all we can do was throw it, because the run game didn't do s***.

top me if this is too advanced for anybody, but after a team scores a touchdown, the rules clearly state they must kick the ball back to the other team so they can play offense.

Is it too advanced to prevent teams from scoring a TD maybe a few times? Colts scored on just about every drive! There was no way Plummer was going to match Manning score for score, everyone on here knows Plummers limits and what he can and can't do. I agree Plummer was horrible against Pitt but neither was the defense that let the steelers convert on nearly everytime, heck all we needed was a couple of third down stops but noooo Coyer is too predictable and it showed.

[Blueflame]

Easy because we were in the hole and all we can do was throw it, because the run game didn't do s***.



Is it too advanced to prevent teams from scoring a TD maybe a few times? Colts scored on just about every drive! There was no way Plummer was going to match Manning score for score,
Conversely, just maybe Cutler could...

everyone on here knows Plummers limits and what he can and can't do.
By moving up in the draft to get Cutler, Shanahan made a pretty strong indication that he no longer was convinced that Plummer... with those limitations... was the answer.

I agree Plummer was horrible against Pitt

Nothing more needs to be said, then...

but neither was the defense that let the steelers convert on nearly everytime, heck all we needed was a couple of third down stops but noooo Coyer is too predictable and it showed.
Yep, the defense struggled that day, too. No one's denied that.

[No1BroncoFan]

I thought the difference between the Jake Bashers and the Plummer defenders was that the Jake Bashers recognized bad play when they saw it.
Jake bashers only recognized the poor play from a single position. The Plummer defenders recognized the poor play of the whole team, Plummer included.
I think it's the same difference between the Darrent Williams bashers and the Darrent Williams defenders. I don't think the fact that there are people being critical of Darrent Williams, that they are any less a Broncos fan.
I've never felt criticism was a bad thing and Jake certainly earned his. Unjustified blame on the other hand...
I'm pretty sure that we all root for the Broncos.

/for what it's worth, I hope to be watching Foxworth on the field this week.
You know, after going back and fourth with you for over five years, I'm not convinced you're as big a fan of the team as you are the players. You always seem to get polarized on one in particular and it blinds you to what's going on with the rest of the team.

Ben

[24champ]

Conversely, just maybe Cutler could...


When was the last time someone went and outgunned Manning in a shoot-out?

[Merlin]

Conversely, just maybe Cutler could...
One of the greatest QBs in history (yes, I hate his guts, but can also recognize his abilities), and an unproven commodity will be able to stand toe-to-toe against them. No pressure there Cutler. BTW, KC with on of the best OL's in history and a great Offence could not keep up, but the young pup with a work in progress will.
Yep, the defense struggled that day, too. No one's denied that.
Actually, Taco laid the failure of the D on Plummer's feet, so yes, some of the haters have reinterpreted the meaning of the D's performance.

[Tredici]

When was the last time someone went and outgunned Manning in a shoot-out?

Last season in the playoffs. Pittsburgh.

Short memory loss?

[Tredici]

Here's the thing. It seems to me the whole team is playing differently with Cutler under center.

His first game is also the first game we actually had a comeback in. Didn't win but things didn't just spiral down the toilet with the score getting more lopsided.

Fact of life is the defense will find a way to give the ball back to a guy they have faith in. We've seen enough of that over the years to know it's true.

I don't know if it was watching what the kid did in practice but Jake had lost that team.

[Blueflame]

When was the last time someone went and outgunned Manning in a shoot-out?

Manning is one of the league's best QBs... but we don't yet know what we have in Cutler. He's improving a lot from week to week and has the potential to join the likes of Brady, Manning, Brees, and Palmer at the top of the stat sheets as he matures and gains experience. Cutler was one of the top 3 QBs in the draft; a player that a team usually has to pay for acquiring (in the form of an incredibly sucky season in order to gain draft position).

[Tredici]

Manning is one of the league's best QBs... but we don't yet know what we have in Cutler. He's improving a lot from week to week and has the potential to join the likes of Brady, Manning, Brees, and Palmer at the top of the stat sheets as he matures and gains experience. Cutler was one of the top 3 QBs in the draft; a player that a team usually has to pay for acquiring (in the form of an incredibly sucky season in order to gain draft position).

Not to mention right now Peyton and Jay have the exact same amount of rings....

:wiggle:

[Blueflame]

One of the greatest QBs in history (yes, I hate his guts, but can also recognize his abilities), and an unproven commodity will be able to stand toe-to-toe against them. No pressure there Cutler. BTW, KC with on of the best OL's in history and a great Offence could not keep up, but the young pup with a work in progress will.

Actually, Taco laid the failure of the D on Plummer's feet, so yes, some of the haters have reinterpreted the meaning of the D's performance.

Cutler has the potential to be among the league's best QBs, imho. Maybe he won't be able to stand toe-to-toe with Manning in the '06 playoffs, but that doesn't mean he won't be able to do it in the future. He is already good, showing a lot of improvement from week to week and will only get better and better with the on-field experience.

No, Taco laid the offensive failure on Plummer. Not the defensive problems, which constitute a separate issue entirely.

[Blueflame]

Not to mention right now Peyton and Jay have the exact same amount of rings....

:wiggle:

... same number of SB appearances, too... ;)

[Taco John]

Actually, Taco laid the failure of the D on Plummer's feet, so yes, some of the haters have reinterpreted the meaning of the D's performance.


Actually, no I didn't. The D's failure is their own. What I have said, however, is that they could use some help out there. They have had to play perfect in order for us to win games. With Jay, however, we've seen that they can make mistakes and it's not the end of the world. We have a quarterback who can put scoreboard pressure on the opposing defenses now, and keep the game in balance.

[Merlin]

They have had to play perfect in order for us to win games.
That is BS and you know it. A number of times you have blamed him for the D's failures. Now you are turning the argument into them having to play perfect for Plummer to win. How about they play avg? How about their 3rd down stops in the first half reach at least 50% of their regular season stats? How about they make a simple stop on third AND FREAKING >15 yds? Yeah, they were expected to play perfectly, if by that you mean do at least a half a$$ed job.

[Merlin]

No, Taco laid the offensive failure on Plummer. Not the defensive problems, which constitute a separate issue entirely.
Actually he did, and more than once. In fact the bigger joke is that he actually tried to defend their performance against Indy by also laying the blame on Plummer. In fact I would be more than happy to make him a simple wager. If I go through the trouble to find one of his posts where that logic is used and find it, then for penance from now on he will have to jump in to all discussions involving JP and defend him to the death. And no, he would not be allowed to have discussions with himself ;)

[Merlin]

Last season in the playoffs. Pittsburgh.
Short memory loss?
He wasn't outgunned. His team had a lot of rust, and his OL had some trouble with the blitz (as did every other Pitts opponent last yr in the playoffs). It was the D that beat Manning, and every time he has lost in the playoffs it has been because of the D, not because he was outgunned. Not even KC at its best could outgun him.

[BroncoInferno]

Last season in the playoffs. Pittsburgh.

Short memory loss?

Surely you aren't calling the Indy/Pitt playoff game a "shootout"?

Taco's post was even worse, calling 24-21 games "shootouts." If only our D had managed to hold a team to 3 TDs in a freakin half, let along an entire game.

[Blueflame]

Actually he did, and more than once. In fact the bigger joke is that he actually tried to defend their performance against Indy by also laying the blame on Plummer. In fact I would be more than happy to make him a simple wager. If I go through the trouble to find one of his posts where that logic is used and find it, then for penance from now on he will have to jump in to all discussions involving JP and defend him to the death. And no, he would not be allowed to have discussions with himself ;)

I think we can all agree that it makes it easier on a defense if the offense is holding up their share of the burden. And it makes it easier on both the offense and the defense if special teams is playing up to par. Hence, if the offense is sputtering... consistently going 3-and-out, taking maybe 30 seconds off the clock, it puts more pressure on the defense than if the offense powers its way down the field, punching it into the endzone after taking 5+ minutes off the clock. When you're depending on depth players (backups to the backups forced onto the field due to injury) in the secondary, getting less than a minute of rest before being asked to go back on the field and prevent a playoff-caliber offense from scoring from perhaps 30 yards out, then, imho, you're asking an awful lot from those defenders. (Roc Alexander trying to cover Reggie Wayne, anyone?)

[Popps]

TJ, even when our offense didn't turn it over, our defense didn't do a thing all day to stop them

It wouldn't of mattered, Pitt's OC had a better plan than our old man at DC and he could not adjust to it........PItt could've scored 60 points that game if they wanted to

No, but see.... if our offense would have scored 100 points, we could have won... maybe.

I mean, if you go by his reasoning, there's almost no reason to even field a defense... because no matter WHAT opposing offenses do to embarrass you, the answer is NEVER to improve your defense, it's ONLY your own QB/offfense.

Look, Shack.. just read the better sportswriters take on that game, or listen to the coaches/players. You'll certainly hear that the QB play was less than satisfactory, but you'll also hear about a total and complete defensive collapse.

Same thing we see year after year.

We've got the lord Jesus Christ lined up behind center now and our defense is still bending over, trying to piss away games. (Or doing so.) What's the excuse for that? Plummer still?

No, now... Taco and minions are now suddenly talking about defensive line problems! You guessed it, as of the Seattle Seahawks game, we now have defensive issues.

Who'da thunk it, huh?

[Popps]

Last season in the playoffs. Pittsburgh.

Short memory loss?

Well, I wouldn't call that a shootout. It was more than Pitt generally allowed that season, but hardly the playoff records our defense lays down for in the first half of most playoff games.

But, it's a game worth noting in that Pitt showed for the umpteenth year in a row that championships start with swarming, oppressive defenses and offense-only teams like Indy rarely cut it. (Seeing it again this year.)

[Blueflame]

No, but see.... if our offense would have scored 100 points, we could have won... maybe.

I mean, if you go by his reasoning, there's almost no reason to even field a defense... because no matter WHAT opposing offenses do to embarrass you, the answer is NEVER to improve your defense, it's ONLY your own QB/offfense.

Look, Shack.. just read the better sportswriters take on that game, or listen to the coaches/players. You'll certainly hear that the QB play was less than satisfactory, but you'll also hear about a total and complete defensive collapse.

Same thing we see year after year.

We've got the lord Jesus Christ lined up behind center now and our defense is still bending over, trying to piss away games. (Or doing so.) What's the excuse for that? Plummer still?

No, now... Taco and minions are now suddenly talking about defensive line problems! You guessed it, as of the Seattle Seahawks game, we now have defensive issues.

Who'da thunk it, huh?

Noteworthy is the fact that "year after year" our defense has fielded backups... often rookies... in the playoffs, due to injuries to our starters. It's happened again this year.

"Taco and his minions", eh? Sounds like a good name for a rock band. LOL

[Kaylore]

You don't suppose that this is just as much a refelction of Scheffler finally grasping the offense as well?

He's a rookie too, right? Perhaps Jake couldn't force the safeties to back off because Scheffler wasn't performing as well then as he is now?

The point is Kaylore is that now when we win games all we hear is how it's solely because of the QB switch, not because other guys are starting to perform better as well.

Not at all. I've always been a critic of the "If we win our whole team is perfect and if we lose our whole team is garbage syndrome."

There's not doubt that Scheffler being able to practice well enough to get on the field has been a benefit. However I want to make it clear that the beliefs that guys weren't getting open or that the offense was limiting Plummer or that there weren't little markers on the field for Plummer to throw to is all not true. The pass over the middle of the field has been there but Plummer wasn't making them.

[Blueflame]

Well, I wouldn't call that a shootout. It was more than Pitt generally allowed that season, but hardly the playoff records our defense lays down for in the first half of most playoff games.

But, it's a game worth noting in that Pitt showed for the umpteenth year in a row that championships start with swarming, oppressive defenses and offense-only teams like Indy rarely cut it. (Seeing it again this year.)

It's also noteworthy that Indy benefitted from an absolutely abominable bad officiating call (the worst I've ever seen) in that game. The score really shouldn't have been as close as it was.

[Tredici]

He wasn't outgunned. His team had a lot of rust, and his OL had some trouble with the blitz (as did every other Pitts opponent last yr in the playoffs). It was the D that beat Manning, and every time he has lost in the playoffs it has been because of the D, not because he was outgunned. Not even KC at its best could outgun him.

Oh I stand corrected.

Guess Perfect Peyton and Jake have a lot in common. Both need to have their asses carried by the defenses.

[Cito Pelon]

Well, if you likes aggressive passing attacks, you have to love the kid. A cannon like that doesn't come around often with all the other attributes necessary. Shanny has been needing a passing attack to open up his running game again, so we'll see if The Brain can take over the world.

I've been posting for years Shanny has been trying to find a passing game to open up his running game, and when he did find that passing attack, watch out. So we'll see if ShanaDingerDenn can make this a "watch out" O. This is shaping up to be a playoff year, and they are not guaranteed. When you get one, you want to kick some ass. So we'll see if Shanny & Co. can kick some ass.

[baja]

The article mentions that Scheffler has become the viable no. 3 receiver the Broncos had lacked in the past. I don't necessarily agree with that because his production over the past four games hasn't been too much more than Putzier's over the two previous seasons. What the article should have stated is that the emergence of Brandon Marshall has given the Broncos 3 viable WRs to go along with quality TE play.<b> But the author is correct to give Cutler credit for using his options more effectively than Plummer. It really has been been night and day since he took over for Plummer.</b>

Also, on the surface it's surprising that Plummer's deep pass average is so high. But it probably has more to do with the fact that the Broncos hardly ever went deep with him under center.

To me this is the greatest improvement and what I have been saying along, that is Cutler that has the ability to find his options and the ability to deliver the ball when he does. For this reason alone benching Jake in favor of Rocket Man makes sense.

[iowa broncofan]

I hate to sound like I'm picking a side here, 'cause I had mixed feelings about the switch. I tend to defend our starting QB to a fault. I liked Griese from before we drafted him, and then defended him until it was already perfectly clear to everyone else that he had to go. The year Plummer came available, I wanted him as a Bronco, and was thrilled when we signed him. Even when he made boneheaded throws, in my mind those were more than made up for every time he escaped from the pocket or made a clutch throw. Particularly last year. I'm a patient guy when it comes to our QBs, to a fault, probably.

But even I was excited that Cutler was going to get a shot. Because Jake just wasn't getting it done this year. He was not the only one at fault; we had dropped passes, and our running game wasn't going well. And it disappoints me that Jake didn't work out the way I envisioned.

I have a few questions for those of you who still seem pissed off about the switch. How do you account for the fact that Scheffler and Marshall are suddenly involved? How do you account for the fact that we're putting up more points per game under Cutler than under Plummer? Are you just caught up in wins and losses? That would at least be a logical argument, but consider this: Plummer went 7-4 this year, winning 64% of his games. Cutler, if we win this game on Sunday, will have won 60% of his games, in his first five starts as an NFL quarterback. Not a huge difference. Aside from obscure statistics like how many yards per attempt each had on his medium throws (gosh, are those broken down to grass and turf? day and night games? what is this, baseball?), just look at those three factors: young receivers more involved, making big plays; more points per game; similar winning % if we win Sunday. I just don't get what the argument is.

[Taco John]

Their argument, if I may, is that the defense sucks, and therefore it doesn't matter who we have at quarterback... Thus they weren't ever wrong about Plummer. They were right about the defense. Or something like that.

Basically, Plummer's helpers have this fantasy that they were the only ones who knew that we needed defensive line help. Apparently it even escaped Shanahan, because he didn't offer it this offseason. And those of us who argued in favor of replacing Jake were doing so because we apparently believed that the team was perfect outside of Jake, and replacing him would fix our pass rush (of course, nobody made this case. It's a strawman).

I never imagined that replacing Jake would fix everything. I did imagine it would fix the problems we have at the quarterback position, and of course, have a positive domino effect throughout the team. That positive domino effect has been stretched to mean "fix every team problem." Which, of course, is ridiculous.

What isn't ridiculous, is the actual positive domino effect that the switch has made on the team. We've actually seen some offensive swagger. Our defense is getting a chance to regroup on the sidelines as our offense executes 99 yard drives. We're seeing a return of the 7 minute clock consuming drive. Our defense isn't required to play perfect in order for us to stay in games with good offenses. We can seemingly score from anywhere on the field. The middle of the field is opened up again to the passing game. Safeties are no longer creeping into the box before the snap out of fear they might get beat deep. The playbook has opened up to include high-risk, high reward intermediate routes. Our third down completion percentage has gone up. We're scoring more points per game. Opposing defenses are having to gameplan to stop our passing game. Our highly touted rookies who showed so much promise in the preseason and then disappeared off the map have magically made a resurgence. The tight end position has found its way back into the offense.

Our pass rush hasn't improved. We're still struggling to cover receivers in zone situations. Our defense gives up ground to bruising runningbacks. No one said any of these things would be fixed. But the case was made that the other team can't score when our offense has the ball and is executing, which in turn helps out the defense. That's basic football right there.

[Popps]

I have a few questions for those of you who still seem pissed off about the switch. .

Dude... NO ONE is pissed off about the switch, and I mean no one.

Well, maybe fans of opposing teams and defensive coordinators around the league, but no one here.

Again, don't confuse people like Taco trying to take credit for being "right" about the earth being flat with the actual debates that went on, which revolved around WHEN to start our future QB, and where blame has been placed for past defensive playoff shortcomings.

No Bronco fan is pissed about the switch and no one thinks Jake is better than Jay.

Those are fallacies created by folks who shunned all other team problems until week 12 of this season, after which they suddenly realize we have other holes on the team.

[iowa broncofan]

OK... Well... Thanks to both of you for clearing that up. As long as nobody's upset about the switch.

This is what I get for not being around so much anymore... I miss big debates like these. You come into the play during the third act, you need a program to figure out who did what to whom. ;D

[Popps]

OK... Well... Thanks to both of you for clearing that up. As long as nobody's upset about the switch.

This is what I get for not being around so much anymore... I miss big debates like these. You come into the play during the third act, you need a program to figure out who did what to whom. ;D

ROFL!

You aren't missing anything, bro. Just people talking a little poop on the internet.

But, no one is upset about this switch. Look at the kid. He's off the charts good for his 4th game.

[Taco John]

Dude... NO ONE is pissed off about the switch, and I mean no one.

Well, maybe fans of opposing teams and defensive coordinators around the league, but no one here.

Again, don't confuse people like Taco trying to take credit for being "right" about the earth being flat with the actual debates that went on, which revolved around WHEN to start our future QB, and where blame has been placed for past defensive playoff shortcomings.

No Bronco fan is pissed about the switch and no one thinks Jake is better than Jay.

Those are fallacies created by folks who shunned all other team problems until week 12 of this season, after which they suddenly realize we have other holes on the team.


And again, that's hardly accurate. Though I will admit that I think Shanahan was late to make the switch, and I'm not alone. But I made the case that Jay gave this team the best opportunity to win THIS SEASON. Hence my argument that we should be starting Jay THIS SEASON. The actual "WHEN" is actually immaterial to my case, as any time this season fits the crieteria (though the sooner the better was definitely desireable).

Outside of that, I'm actually suprised there is still a debate here. The only thing that I can conclude is that people have wrapped so much pride into their side of the debate, that they can't let it go, myself included. I have a hard time just sitting on a stat that says that Jake is a better deep passer than Jay is, when anyone can clearly see that isn't the case by watching him play. Rather than ignoring it, I (and others) picked at it. Then those who spent so much pride and effort defending Jake over the last year chimed in that Jake wasn't getting a fair shake.

In the end, I don't think it's about Jake or Jay anymore. I think it's about people not wanting to swallow their pride and capitulate a point. Nobody thinks they were wrong. Everybody was right all along. Except me, who apparently was not actually debating the point that Jay gave us the best opportunity to win this season, but instead debating the point that the earth is flat. Which is why I don't go deep sea fishing. Suicidal mofos!

[Taco John]

Glad to see you around again Iowa... :)

[iowa broncofan]

Glad to see you around again Iowa... :)

Thank you, I've enjoyed being back. Two or three more days of freedom, then I'm back at it. But I'll try to stop back around if we're in the playoffs.

Terrific baby pic, btw. If this was a development since my last visit, congratulations.

[Popps]

I think it's about people not wanting to swallow their pride and capitulate a point. Nobody thinks they were wrong. Everybody was right all along.

The difference is, I never claimed to be "right" with regards to anything about Jake v. Jay.

My point has (always) been about the defense and a stance that with a defense like Pitt had last year, we're talking about winning back to back SBs again instead of wondering if we can plug in a better QB to make up for those defensive shortcomings.

And it's NOT like this is a new stance for me. This dates back to the Griese days, when I was begging this team to improve the defensive line.

YOU have championed yourself as being "right" about Jay all along, which is funny, because...

1. You wanted us to draft Leinart, not Cutler.

2. You said he gave us the best chance to win "now," and after running up a 7-4 record, we almost dropped out of the playoff race after making the switch.

But, it does appear that Shanahan is going to get us into the playoffs, so one would have to give him credit for using proper timing with regards to the switch.

Again begging the question, what is it you were "right" about, again? Cutler being better than Plummer?

Gosh, way to go out on a limb.

[Cito Pelon]

. . . .. Our defense is getting a chance to regroup on the sidelines as our offense executes 99 yard drives. .......Our defense isn't required to play perfect in order for us to stay in games with good offenses.. . . . ...

You had it going pretty good there before and after that. But that there above pretty much f'd it up. You should have left that out. The D is a joke gone bad.

[24champ]

Last season in the playoffs. Pittsburgh.

Short memory loss?

Read my post, was it a shoot-out? no.

[Odysseus]

No, guys like Scheffler and Marshall started playing like studs as soon as Jay was inserted in the lineup purely by coincidence.

Every QB has favorites. Jay is going to feed Scheffler even if he's triple teamed. Cutler needs to spread it around and pull down some of the open routes instead of always going for the kill. That has to come in time. He still has to pick up the pace another notch.

[Kaylore]

Dude... NO ONE is pissed off about the switch, and I mean no one.

Well no one that's willing to say anything but they're out there. I talked to my crazy grandpa on my Mom's side on Christmas and he honestly thinks Shanahan just started Cutler because he was jealous of the attention that Bill Parcells was getting for starting Romo. He also thinks letting Bradlee Van Pelt go was a mistake.

My friend Neil says "Cutler sucks." Every time he throws and says "I want Plummer" with regularity.

There are fans on this board that share opinions such as these but they don't post for fear of ridicule, but no mistake, at the first sign of trouble they are going to show up and make noise.

[Odysseus]

To me this is the greatest improvement and what I have been saying along, that is Cutler that has the ability to find his options and the ability to deliver the ball when he does. For this reason alone benching Jake in favor of Rocket Man makes sense.

Jake became my worst nightmare...Brian Griese. He was requiring too much maintenance and coddling. It got to a point where announcers were trying to figure out which Jake would appear. Towards the end of last year Jake was getting frustrated with the Jake parodys and being a "game manager" and started throwing interceptions again. I guess according to him "to get it out of his system." Um. Why does crap have to be part of your diet?

If you want to compare stats use last year's stats. Comparing this year's numbers to Cutler's numbers is really pretty pretentious. Shanahan is in QB heaven right now. It isn't Cutler's obvious skill that he enjoys so much is this kid is so frigging smart and doesn't need a lot of the maintenance that MANY NFL quarterbacks seem to think is warranted.

The trick to Cutler isn't whether the fans adore him or not but that he continues to surround himself with stable influences. Denver press is ridiculous with a player's personal life. Does this guy have a dog or an eye on any of the cheerleaders?

[Odysseus]

Well no one that's willing to say anything but they're out there. I talked to my crazy grandpa on my Mom's side on Christmas and he honestly thinks Shanahan just started Cutler because he was jealous of the attention that Bill Parcells was getting for starting Romo. He also thinks letting Bradlee Van Pelt go was a mistake.

My friend Neil says "Cutler sucks." Every time he throws and says "I want Plummer" with regularity.

There are fans on this board that share opinions such as these but they don't post for fear of ridicule, but no mistake, at the first sign of trouble they are going to show up and make noise.

:giggle: Anybody else post this I would have thought they were kidding with me.

[Taco John]

My point has (always) been about the defense and a stance that with a defense like Pitt had last year, we're talking about winning back to back SBs again instead of wondering if we can plug in a better QB to make up for those defensive shortcomings.

Likewise, I feel that even with a great defense, Jake would have found a way to put them in a bad spot.


YOU have championed yourself as being "right" about Jay all along, which is funny, because...

1. You wanted us to draft Leinart, not Cutler.

2. You said he gave us the best chance to win "now," and after running up a 7-4 record, we almost dropped out of the playoff race after making the switch.

But, it does appear that Shanahan is going to get us into the playoffs, so one would have to give him credit for using proper timing with regards to the switch.

Again begging the question, what is it you were "right" about, again? Cutler being better than Plummer?

Gosh, way to go out on a limb.


Actually to address your points. I had made the case that we needed a quarterback more than we needed anything else, because the one we had turned into a pumpkin once the clock struck playoffs. For my part, I had been following Lienart all year in hopes that Shanahan would find a way, knowing full well that the odds were against it. But more than just Leinart, I wanted a quarterback. There were exactly two people on this board who were actively saying that the Broncos would draft a quarterback in this draft: myself and Herc. Everyone told us we were crazy, and that Shanahan wouldn't dream of wasting our draft picks to move up and take a quarterback. We kept insisting that Shanahan sees what's wrong with the offense, and not only that, but the salary cap practically required us to make the move this season. Ask Wabbit himself. I conversed with him several times behind the scenes asking him if there was a quarterback in sight. Again and again he said no, and again and again I would point out why I thought it was all a smoke screen for a move to nab one of the top three. Yes, I had hoped for Leinart. But I also said that I'd be thrilled with Cutler.

I don't really understand your second point. I did say that Cutler gave us the best opportunity to win now, as in this season. And by his stats, it looks like I was right. He is running a much more effective offense than Plummer did at any time this season. I commend Shanahan for making the switch. I wish he'd have done it earlier, and I'd bet that he wishes the same. Are you trying to pin me for being wrong because I wanted him in earlier than he put him in? What about yourself? You've stated the same thing several times. How are you going to pin me for second guessing Shanahan on the same issue that you've second guessed him yourself? Didn't you say that we should have put in Cutler earlier than the Seattle game? Whatever your ticky-tacky point is here, I don't think it holds any water.

What was I right about again? It should be obvious by now. I was right that Cutler was the best quarterback for this season, over the veteran Plummer. It was a very unpopular opinion to take, particularly because Jake just came off of a supposed pro-bowl season, and quote-unquote "led us to the AFC Championship game" last year (our defense actually got us there, but who's counting?) I'm not sure why you're going to pretend that you did anything but argued that we should be happy with Plummer as our quarterback because we were winning games with him (actually, despite him). I sat there after Shanahan made the switch and defended the move against people who called him a liar for saying that Jay gives us the best opportunity to win now. You were one of them.


The only thing it DOES point out is just how misguided the "he gives us the best chance to win now" crowd are. ... I'm supposed to be happy about getting destroyed because some snot nosed kid threw a few good passes?

Whoopty ****ing do.


Maybe next year at some point, not right now.



I think the thing a lot of people have a problem with is this "best chance to win now" nonsense. It was a stab in the dark, and it turned out as you'd expect jamming a rookie in there mid-season would turn out.... we lost two straight games and he struggled with fumbles, miscues, INTs, etc. Now, before you rush to say "well, Jake had those problems."... maybe he did, but if the kid represented our "best chance to win," then he wouldn't be making those same mistakes.

...

Take this for what it is. Mike gambled on a rookie, and it didn't pay off beyond getting the kid reps earlier than he would have gotten them. Nothing wrong with that, but there's no need to pretend this is something it's not at this point.


Jay is going to be a fantastic quarterback and I haven't heard a single fan around here say anything negative about his abilities. But, let's not play fantasy-land about "best chance to win now." That's come and gone, and been proven untrue. Let's move forward and hope the kid improves in a hurry.


Again, best chance to win in the future... absolutely. Best chance to win NOW... that's been proven factually incorrect.

But, feel free to continue your earth is flat campaign. It's 60 and sunny here and I'm on to better things.

I think that's how most of us felt. I personally would have like to see the move a week or so earlier, or a week or so later. Of course, that's just hindsight. (Though I did say we should play him at K.C..)

Starting him earlier lets him get some of the kinks out during these losses.

...

Oh, that... and the feeble attempts at justifying this "best chance to win now" comedy routine.

Jay is our best chance to win in the future, but he didn't do squat to improve our chances of winning now. Facts have been established in that regard.


Let's just not play fantasy-land about this move being implemented to help us "win now."

...when you come up with proof that "he was our best chance to win now," let me know. So far, you've called people names and droned on about nothing.

Here's proof you can't use.... wins or points against a common opponent.

Good luck.



Now you want to act like everybody has known that Jay gives us our best chance to win all along. You've acted like those of us who have been defending Shanahan's decision to dump the veteran and go with the rookie in the middle of a playoff hunt were making the argument that "the earth is flat."

Oh, and check the date on this beauty (8/15):

Cutler will be our starter going into the playoffs this year.


...what is it you were "right" about, again?

[24champ]

I have no clue how anyone would want Leinart running this offense with the line we have and Leinart being immobile. Had we drafted the guy, I would have pulled a garcia on my computer. It would be worse than SOB by far. No way is Leinart going to evade the rush. I did think you and Herc should have been put in a straightjacket when you both wanted a QB, thought drafting Bunkley was a done deal once we moved up.

[Popps]

Now you want to act like everybody has known that Jay gives us our best chance to win all along.

Wow, an hour of your life digging up irrelevant posts. You'll never get that hour back.

I never said "everyone knew he gave us the best chance to win all along."

Are you really that incapable of comprehending the simplest of English sentences?

I said that everyone knew he was our future. Everyone knew he had more upside than Plummer.

I've already outlined in specific detail how you not only wanted Leinart... NOT Cutler, but how you were incorrect about him giving us a chance to win "now." We lost two straight and almost dropped out of the playoff race.

Shanahan went against your genius advice and took us to 7-4. Luckily, he picked the right time to start the rookie... and we have a little post-season hope.

Again, where you were "right" in that whole scenario continues to baffle us all.

[-Slap-]

Bunkley is looking like a great big first round DL bust. Beware the workout warriors. This kind is making an early bid to be this decade's Mike Mamula.

In addition to playing like crap when he got on the field, the guy further endeared himself to the coaching staff by missing a team flight to Indy. He's been inactive for the last several weeks.

[Popps]

I have no clue how anyone would want Leinart running this offense with the line we have and Leinart being immobile. Had we drafted the guy, I would have pulled a garcia on my computer. .


He doesn't know what he wants, dude. He just hates the guy that replaced Griese. Nothing more, nothing less.

His feigned affection for Cutler (even though he wanted Leinart) is just an attempt to garner some kind of praise for something none of us can figure out. I mean... there's no one patting him on the back but himself.

But, honestly... we should just let him be. At a certain point, I guess it's just easier to let the crazy guy on the street corner think that he's Elvis Presley than to try to explain to him that he's not.

[watermock]

Their argument, if I may, is that the defense sucks, and therefore it doesn't matter who we have at quarterback... Thus they weren't ever wrong about Plummer. They were right about the defense. Or something like that.

Basically, Plummer's helpers have this fantasy that they were the only ones who knew that we needed defensive line help. Apparently it even escaped Shanahan, because he didn't offer it this offseason. And those of us who argued in favor of replacing Jake were doing so because we apparently believed that the team was perfect outside of Jake, and replacing him would fix our pass rush (of course, nobody made this case. It's a strawman).

I never imagined that replacing Jake would fix everything. I did imagine it would fix the problems we have at the quarterback position, and of course, have a positive domino effect throughout the team. That positive domino effect has been stretched to mean "fix every team problem." Which, of course, is ridiculous.

What isn't ridiculous, is the actual positive domino effect that the switch has made on the team. We've actually seen some offensive swagger. Our defense is getting a chance to regroup on the sidelines as our offense executes 99 yard drives. We're seeing a return of the 7 minute clock consuming drive. Our defense isn't required to play perfect in order for us to stay in games with good offenses. We can seemingly score from anywhere on the field. The middle of the field is opened up again to the passing game. Safeties are no longer creeping into the box before the snap out of fear they might get beat deep. The playbook has opened up to include high-risk, high reward intermediate routes. Our third down completion percentage has gone up. We're scoring more points per game. Opposing defenses are having to gameplan to stop our passing game. Our highly touted rookies who showed so much promise in the preseason and then disappeared off the map have magically made a resurgence. The tight end position has found its way back into the offense.

Our pass rush hasn't improved. We're still struggling to cover receivers in zone situations. Our defense gives up ground to bruising runningbacks. No one said any of these things would be fixed. But the case was made that the other team can't score when our offense has the ball and is executing, which in turn helps out the defense. That's basic football right there.

Save us from the revisionist history Taco. Sorry, but I didn't see you calling for Cutler whatsoever. In fairness, we all wanted Jake to go out with a bang, but he laid a turd....the lighter told me so.

[Popps]

Save us from the revisionist history Taco. Sorry, but I didn't see you calling for Cutler whatsoever.

Of course he called for Cutler.

After 12 weeks of him calling for Cutler, Shanahan put him in on his own schedule... contrary to Taco's schedule, and apparently picked the right time to do it.

So, I suppose Shanahan should be making "I was Right" threads around here, but no one else.

[Odysseus]

Save us from the revisionist history Taco. Sorry, but I didn't see you calling for Cutler whatsoever. In fairness, we all wanted Jake to go out with a bang, but he laid a turd....the lighter told me so.

Taco was calling hard for Leinhart. That scared me to death. I didn't want Leinhart. I liked Young better and eventually liked Cutler the most after getting a little deeper into his bio. I was shocked this kid snuck up so low on the radar. I really don't think anyone yet has a full bead on this kid.

Cutler came with a LOT of raw talent but a lot of bad habits. The fact that a lot of revisionists are centered on is "See! I told you Plummer sucked." Um. O.K. You said that last year, the year before and a little before that. It's just the natural conclusion to all the Plummer hate threads from three years ago. It's like the stages of death in reverse. Next we are going to have the endless parody of statistical crapology.

My question is where are all the Cardinal fans who have the right to say "I told you so?" Those are the guys who suffering for REAL. They got the wrong starting quarterback AND have years of Plummer in their collective memories. How good is it to be a Broncos fan? :flower:

[-Slap-]

Leinart will do as well as can be expected. Nobody will ever really succeed in AZ until Dollar Bill sells the team or dies.

[Odysseus]

Leinart will do as well as can be expected. Nobody will ever really succeed in AZ until Dollar Bill sells the team or dies.

I swear that team has a curse on it.

[-Slap-]

I swear that team has a curse on it.

http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nfl/az/Bbidwellaz.JPG

[Taco John]

I have no clue how anyone would want Leinart running this offense with the line we have and Leinart being immobile.

Immobile? You clearly haven't watched Leinart play if you think he's immobile. He's no world class scrambler, but he moves very well in the pocket and has suprising escapability. Did you see his touchdown scramble in his first win against Detroit? You should watch him play sometime.

I'd definitely rather have Cutler, in hindsight. But I always get a laugh when people see his knee brace and start spouting off with assumptions that go against what actually happens on the field.

Matt Leinart gets sacked on average 1 time out of 18 passing attempts. By comparison, Plummer got sacked 1 time out of 17 passing attempts.

[holygreen]

Immobile? You clearly haven't watched Leinart play if you think he's immobile. He's no world class scrambler, but he moves very well in the pocket and has suprising escapability. You should watch him play sometime.

yeah, hes alot better than warner for sure

[Taco John]

Save us from the revisionist history Taco. Sorry, but I didn't see you calling for Cutler whatsoever.

That's because you were drunk.

[elsid13]

OK I going to have remind everyone, TJ was calling for Plummer head two year ago. Remember avatar with the boulder in the middle of road with #16 on it???

Cutler right now, is getting everyone involved, which is something Plummer wasn't doing. Plus we are now seeing under him long clock consuming drives, which will keep the opponents offense off the field. Defense still bends to much for my taste, but at least Denver is now limiting thier exposure on the field.

[errand]

I think Bowlen saw what everybody else saw: a quarterback who was a roadblock.






So pray tell TJ, why would he extend the contract of a roadblock? I'm not saying he's stupid, but wouldn't he have to be?

[errand]

Not even. You have to make things up like "They could have scored 60 points if they wanted to." As if they didn't want to score 60 points or something.

I'm just giving facts. The fact is, our defense gave up 13 points on drives that started from the Steelers side of the field. Everything else came on the short field off of turnovers. That's not rehtoric. That's not hyperbole. That's just the facts.


So then TJ, how did the Steelers win the game? Was it because their D was good...or their O was good? Either way it says the same thing....our D sucks and Defense wins titles.

[errand]

No, Taco laid the offensive failure on Plummer. Not the defensive problems, which constitute a separate issue entirely.

No Blue...TJ laid the playoff losses directly at the feet of Jake. In fact he went to the trouble to write out an entire scenario that explains clearly that had the offense, (in particularly Jake Plummer) scored on this drive and that drive, the outcome would have been different. He also places the Pittsbiurgh loss on Jake as well. Especially the INT he threw right before halftime.

Never mind that Jake had to throw on practically every down because our D couldn't stop anyone. And guess what? Not only did we the fans know he had to throw on every down...I have a sneaky suspicion the DC's of our opponents knew it too.

[errand]

That is BS and you know it. A number of times you have blamed him for the D's failures. Now you are turning the argument into them having to play perfect for Plummer to win. How about they play avg? How about their 3rd down stops in the first half reach at least 50% of their regular season stats? How about they make a simple stop on third AND FREAKING >15 yds? Yeah, they were expected to play perfectly, if by that you mean do at least a half a$$ed job.

Reggie Wayne catches a pass, falls down, is untouched and races to the end zone while our D stands around looking at each other evidently doesn't mean a thing to guys like TJ. Our D doesn't even know the rules of the freaking game, let alone how to win one.

[Taco John]

So then TJ, how did the Steelers win the game? Was it because their D was good...or their O was good? Either way it says the same thing....our D sucks and Defense wins titles.

I think we could have beat Pittsburgh at home if we could have executed our game plan. Like Shanahan said after the game, any time a team turns the ball over four times in a game, they're not giving their team the best chance to win the game.

[Taco John]

Reggie Wayne catches a pass, falls down, is untouched and races to the end zone while our D stands around looking at each other evidently doesn't mean a thing to guys like TJ. Our D doesn't even know the rules of the freaking game, let alone how to win one.

That was actually the first Indianapolis game. I didn't really have much to say about Jake during that loss. It wasn't until the second Indy loss that I jumped off the Jake ship.

[Dempsey Dog]

I was watching NFL Matchup on ESPN last night. Jaws broke down some film on Cutler and made a very interesting point. He said that the biggest difference between Plummer and Cutler is the progression of their reads. Plummer would read from short to medium and then deep. This explains a lot about how Shanny kept a short leash on Jake. On the other hand, Jaws said Jay is being told to progress from long to medium, and then to the short dump off route. This explains the difference in the YPA. Basically, Jake does not have the skills to look deep first because of his arm strength and accuracy as opposed to Jay, who does.

Last, not to state the obvious to educated audience, but this why we can now open the play book up more. If the QB is always looking deep first and completing enough passes to maintain the threat, our running game will be more effective and the TE will be more involved, as the LB and DB play further off the line of scrimmage.

I get all warm giddy just thinking about us running a full-blown Shanny offense again.....watch out in 2007!!

If this is the case, how does this impact out draft? A stub RB would be great, but is that what we need if the Bells are more effective. Obviously we need to focus a lot on defense....

Just some random thoughts on Sunday morning.

[-Slap-]

Reggie Wayne catches a pass, falls down, is untouched and races to the end zone while our D stands around looking at each other evidently doesn't mean a thing to guys like TJ. Our D doesn't even know the rules of the freaking game, let alone how to win one.

You don't even know that was Marvin Harrison.

[Northman]

So pray tell TJ, why would he extend the contract of a roadblock? I'm not saying he's stupid, but wouldn't he have to be?


You mean the same type of contract he threw at Brian? Even coaches make mistakes.