Why we need to go bigger in 07...

[OrangeShadow]

On the offensive line especially.

Supporting facts
• The rules are becoming more and more geared towards the QB and the offense.
• In turn teams are becoming a little smaller and faster on defense to combat this change and keep up with the offense.
• When you have a big offensive line like SDs or KCs for example it makes it easy to push the opponent around.

I know it helps having backs like LT or LJ but the line is a undeniably huge aspect. Im not saying necissarily change the scheme we run. More suggesting/wondering, if its possible to successfuly run the current scheme with bigger lineman.

[sirhcyennek81]

Harder to find a bigger lineman who can run like smaller lineman do. I agree with you tho, we do need more size on both lines. Its great that our LB's can run, but not when they have to take on linemen who can get by our d line.

:Broncos:

[jmz313]

I completely agree with going bigger. Shanny has shown this season where he wants the O to go. We need bigger, better pass blocking.

[Garcia Bronco]

We went bigger....and he's a puss.

[Paladin]

Don't they have that in the wings now? Kuper and Myers are 300+ pounders, I believe. Eslinger is a bit small at Center. I had said the Broncos might well be moving towards a bigger Oline, but whether they will be as mobile may be questionable. Cutler can pass from thh pocket with good strength and accuracy. Now the Broncos need to build a pocket and consider a big RB and go to a single RB scheme which puts more WRs out there. The new O would feature athletic TEs (Sheff and Graham?) and big strong WRs (Walker and Marshall) and a huge RB (a draft pick?) and an extra speedy WR or H-back (Kircus, Hixson?). You will have to build the D. All I ask is that you remove Coyer and DWill.

STs will be improved with better coaching.

There you have it. Next year's Broncos!

[Paladin]

We went bigger....and he's a puss.

Yeah, but the Broncos can go bigger better. :wiggle:

[bronco militia]

just get better, period.

[ludo21]

Our line did a decent job vs SD actually.

But I agree, we even can still run our scheme with bigger guys.

Guys are BIGGER and still FAST, we gotta change if we wanna help out Cutler for the future.

Kuper is good size, but besides him, we would have to revamp the whole OL.

[glennst]

Consider this:

Our biggest o-lineman is also our worst in pass protection (Foster).

[Spider]

reason why Shanny likes small Oline men is the 4 th quarter , Smaller guys seem to be fresher , then bigger guys , of course this is when we had TD , so our offense was on the field alot more ...............

[Dos Rios]

I think it's more of an either/or proposition than we'd want to admit. The linemen that fit the great zone-blocking run scheme of the last decade don't necessarily work well in a traditional drop back pocket scheme. The team chose run blocking and it's worked great. One underrated impact of Plummer - his ability to avoid sacks and mask the pass blocking weakness of the current offensive philosophy. Check the change in sacks from Griese to Plummer, with the same line.

Cutler's not immobile, but likely his best results will come out of a traditional pocket. If rumors are true, the team also liked Lienert in the draft, who is even more of a pocket passer.

Pass protection and power blocking in the red zone has always been two knocks on the zone blocking scheme, but to date it has reaped incredible benefits. Still, no offensive philosophy lasts forever, and Alex Gibbs left years ago. It will be interesting to see if the next few years brings an entirely new offensive approach.

[skpac1001]

Couldn't you make the same argument in '96? Isn't Indy's line undersized? Isn't our line's performance since Elway retired probably the biggest reason we are one of the top offenses over that timespan? Lets not get out the Hari-Kari knife after one off year. That said, here is hoping we find another couple Kupers.

[Spider]

Couldn't you make the same argument in '96? Isn't Indy's line undersized? Isn't our line's performance since Elway retired probably the biggest reason we are one of the top offenses over that timespan? Lets not get out the Hari-Kari knife after one off year. That said, here is hoping we find another couple Kupers.

look this is the mane , Elway never threw a pick , never missed a pass , we go balistic when Cutler or plummer screw up , that is our right here , we go way overboard , we want to do this , being a drama queen is more fun then being rational ................. ;D

[skpac1001]

look this is the mane , Elway never threw a pick , never missed a pass , we go balistic when Cutler or plummer screw up , that is our right here , we go way overboard , we want to do this , being a drama queen is more fun then being rational ................. ;D

haha, good point. My apologies, carry on everyone.

[Spider]

haha, good point. My apologies, carry on everyone.

;D of course think you are right ,but alot less drama ...........

[alkemical]

It's not for lack of shanny not trying to beef up the OL. Foster didn't pan out. We all know it's a head/heart issue. But that's how it goes. They are people just like us. man imagine if they had fantasy work stats for our jobs. LOL

Anyway back on track - I'd like to have more power for the redzone - but i understand the way to structure the running game with our zone blocking scheme - but sometimes when it's like 3rd & 3 - i'd like to have a G & T that you can just bulldoze with.

The D wasn't going to hold up all year with the line we have. We have role players playing starting jobs on some positions on the DL. The OL we have guys who fit the scheme - but we don't have guys who fit the scheme that have top talent (or that aren't starting yet).

[-Slap-]

I've been begging the Broncos to get bigger and more physical on both sides of the football, but it never seems to happen.

I like the notion that Foster didn't work out, so we should never try and go big again.

Hopefully our front office is infused with the same intrepid spirit.

[OrangeShadow]

Don't they have that in the wings now? Kuper and Myers are 300+ pounders, I believe. Eslinger is a bit small at Center. I had said the Broncos might well be moving towards a bigger Oline, but whether they will be as mobile may be questionable.

You raise a very good point, i didnt remember that kuper and myers were that big. I think they have the ability to fit this system.

[alkemical]

I've been begging the Broncos to get bigger and more physical on both sides of the football, but it never seems to happen.

I like the notion that Foster didn't work out, so we should never try and go big again.

Hopefully our front office is infused with the same intrepid spirit.

For the record slap i don't think we 'shouldn't try again'. I think i'd try it again - infact i wanted to use a 1st rounder on steinbach when he was in the draft.

I have no problem with talent taken high for the OL.

[Barry Ramey]

I don't buy bigger is better on the OL. The Cards have one of the biggest OL in the NFL and have been unable to run the ball at all most of the season despite James at RB. They have big, but slower guys on their o-line. Finding big, quick guys is hard, much less finding five of them.

As for the DL, I think we all agree the DL needs revamping and more size there. Well, just more talent in general is needed there.

[Traveler]

http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/denver/broncos/archives/2006/12/no_one_rushing.html

And finally Anthony Marshall in Atlanta asks . . .

Q: Is there any thought within the organization about scraping (the Broncos') penchant for smaller offensive linemen? Where's the beef?

A: The natural progression, because college linemen are getting bigger as the years go by, will mean the Broncos offensive line gets bigger as well.

That said their emphasis, in their current run scheme, which is on track to another top 5 finish in the league's rankings, will continue to be on footwork and movement. That's not always easy to find in bigger players.

But the pool of players to choose from, should they not use a former tight end at tackle like they did with Matt Lepsis -- Chad Mustard was also switched to tackle in training camp before going back to tight end because of injuries -- consists of fewer 285-pound guys than it once did.

But of the 50 offensive linemen invited to the scouting combine last February, just three were under 300 pounds and none of them weighed less that 292. The lightest there? Greg Eslinger, the Minnesota center who won the Outland and Rimington trophies and also happened to be the Broncos' sixth-round pick this past April.

But Erik Pears, who is playing at left tackle right now and looks like he could be a long-term solution at right tackle, is 6-8, 305 pounds, while rookie Chris Kuper, who is expected to make a run at a starting guard spot in the coming years, is 6-4, 302. Kuper was a fifth-round pick this past April. Chris Myers, a 2005 draft pick, is also 300 pounds. The three are among the team's biggest linemen and they are the youngest as well.

So again the Broncos will likely get a little bigger because that's the way players are going in general, but they will always, under the current coaching staff, covet movement skills first.

All the better, in their minds, if the player is powerful as well.

[alkemical]

I don't buy bigger is better on the OL. The Cards have one of the biggest OL in the NFL and have been unable to run the ball at all most of the season despite James at RB. They have big, but slower guys on their o-line. Finding big, quick guys is hard, much less finding five of them.

As for the DL, I think we all agree the DL needs revamping and more size there. Well, just more talent in general is needed there.

I didn't mean to infer bigger is better for the OL - i just want more power.

[Mile High Shack]

I like how our lineman are more athletic, they don't wear out as easy, if we get Lepsis back and a true RT, we will be fine on Oline

we need to get bigger in 2 areas though

Dline and Linebacker

[Paladin]

Good find, Traveller. Thanks.

Point is that if the Broncos' Oline gets bigger, then the opposing Dline might get bigger, and the cycle continues. The Hogs with Jacoby were the first "big" line I saw, and now, the RT is small if he is less than 310! Or so.

With the possibility of Kuper getting in for, say, Hamilton, and maybe Myers for Nalen, that right side - with Lepsis - would be huge. I don't know what Meadows could do, and if Carlise is big enough or not, so there are two positions that need some attention on the Oline. I am given to understand that Kuper and Myers are both mobile in addition to being big. Maybe help is on the way, to coin a phrase....

I am in dispair of the Dline. Maybe putting a few bucks out and enticing a speed rusher FA would make sense, but that still doesn't address the middle run stopper. I am also of the opinion that Patterson just may be in need of a recycle..... Frankly, I do not know enough about Dline play to make any kind of judgment there. I will leave that to others. All I know is that the front four are rather anemic in getting sacks and more pressure on the QB who is able to wait until DWill falls down......

[skpac1001]

I like how our lineman are more athletic, they don't wear out as easy, if we get Lepsis back and a true RT, we will be fine on Oline

we need to get bigger in 2 areas though

Dline and Linebacker

At linebacker we need more size but without sacrificing athleticism much. On D line, we need more athleticism just as much as we need more size. In other words, we need rare freaks. Trade up for Alan Branch.

[Kaylore]

We went bigger....and he's a puss.

Your sample size is one. Foster doesn't suck because he's big, he sucks because he's a poor player.

Ben Hamilton gets destroyed, and I mean flat out destroyed against big bull rushers. Nalen gets pushed around a bit too. I can't really fault Pears because he's been asked to do so much with so little and has held his own.

Basically with Cutler at the helm I think you are going to see Shanahan want to pass much more in the future and so are going to see us trend toward bigger players up front.

[TheDave]

Your sample size is one. Foster doesn't suck because he's big, he sucks because he's a poor player.

Ben Hamilton gets destroyed, and I mean flat out destroyed against big bull rushers. Nalen gets pushed around a bit too. I can't really fault Pears because he's been asked to do so much with so little and has held his own.

Basically with Cutler at the helm I think you are going to see Shanahan want to pass much more in the future and so are going to see us trend toward bigger players up front.


Foster just doesn't have the foot speed to deal with edge rushers... Move him inside and he will be fine.

[Mile High Shack]

Your sample size is one. Foster doesn't suck because he's big, he sucks because he's a poor player.

Ben Hamilton gets destroyed, and I mean flat out destroyed against big bull rushers. Nalen gets pushed around a bit too. I can't really fault Pears because he's been asked to do so much with so little and has held his own.

Basically with Cutler at the helm I think you are going to see Shanahan want to pass much more in the future and so are going to see us trend toward bigger players up front.

disagree, we had Elway and we ran more, Shanny is smart, he knows you destroy teams will by overpowering them in the run.

Nails is getting old and it's starting to show, maybe with Kuper in there, we could do better next year? Obviously a learning curver but who knows

Shanny wants to pass, but nothing like Andy Reid. It's pretty obvious he likes smaller, more athletic lineman and I don't see that trend changing.

[Guessed]

I wouldn't start reconstructing our O line based on a player being 5 to 10 pounds heavier than another so we can get bigger. Our O line is plenty big enough to get the job done...they've had some injuries this year and Foster isn't panning out. Sure it would be great to have some more beef up front but not at the expense of executing the zone blocking scheme this team has thrived on for more than a decade. Put the best players on the field and suit em up and if the best player happens to be 300+, fine.

[skpac1001]

Your sample size is one. Foster doesn't suck because he's big, he sucks because he's a poor player.

Ben Hamilton gets destroyed, and I mean flat out destroyed against big bull rushers. Nalen gets pushed around a bit too. I can't really fault Pears because he's been asked to do so much with so little and has held his own.

Basically with Cutler at the helm I think you are going to see Shanahan want to pass much more in the future and so are going to see us trend toward bigger players up front.

I think thats part of the point though. We can get the pick of the litter of the undersized O lineman because there is no competition. If we are trying to get monsters who also move well, we face 3 supply and demand problems, 1) there are less monsters who move well then undersized who move well, so less opportunities to draft them, 2), everyone wants monsters who move well, so there is less opportunities to draft them, and 3), everyone wants them, so they want to be paid accordingly. So either we have to settle for inferior players who are bigger, like foster, or we have to spend alot more of our cap space and high draft pics, and hope they pan out.

[Kaylore]

disagree, we had Elway and we ran more, Shanny is smart, he knows you destroy teams will by overpowering them in the run.

Nails is getting old and it's starting to show, maybe with Kuper in there, we could do better next year? Obviously a learning curver but who knows

Shanny wants to pass, but nothing like Andy Reid. It's pretty obvious he likes smaller, more athletic lineman and I don't see that trend changing.

Then you aren't watching closely. Starting in preseason and more so lately, we've slowly been adding in more man blocking plays - traps, pulling guards - and started running less zone. Almost all of the offensive linemen we've been bringing in are closer to 310 than 290, and a lot of them still move very well.

I'm not like Slap where I think we should just have a bunch of bears for a team. However, I think you need to have a mix and our team is heavy on the speed and light on the heavy right now. Someone earlier in the tread mentioned that our line doesn't wear down. Well actually it does. In pass protection against bigger lines they struggle under that duress late in games. It's great to have speed agility and skill to do different things, but when two linemen of equal skill meet in the trenches, size and strength wins out.

I definitely don't want to be one of those teams with a bunch of slow moving guys that hit hard and are physical, but get juked out of their shorts run themselves out of breath late, but I think we're too finesse right now and we could use some man-beasts on this team.

[-Slap-]

I'm not like Slap where I think we should just have a bunch of bears for a team.

You completely misrepresent my philosophy. I appreciate the importance of speed and I like to have as much as I can on both sides of the ball. What I don't like are entire units that are undersized, such as our linebackers and offensive line.

Mainly, I hate being a finesse team and that's exactly what we have in Denver.

[TheDave]

Does everyone here realize that the difference in size we are arguing is less than 20 lbs, on an athlete who weighs over 300 lbs thats a whopping 6%...

Let me give you an example... lets take someone like Kaylor that weighs about 150 lbs soaking wet. Are you people trying to tell me that he couldn't block a guy who weighs 160... I have more faith in Kahn than that. (sorry Kaylor couldn't resist)

Point is people need to stop getting so wrapped up in the measurables... we have had one of the best O-Lines for over a decade. Lets not scrap the best unit we have...

[Dempsey Dog]

I like how our lineman are more athletic, they don't wear out as easy, if we get Lepsis back and a true RT, we will be fine on Oline

we need to get bigger in 2 areas though

Dline and Linebacker

Speaking of size at LB....

With that in mind, and the fact we need some help at safety, I often wondered if the Broncos would ever consider experimenting with Ian Gold at safety. DJ Williams could move back to the weakside, like he played and excelled as a rookie, and stay on the field more. We could also get a bigger LB and a guy who likes and wants to play over the TE in DJ's current spot. Last, Ian has the speed and size of a safety more so than today's LB.

I am not sure if Ian would go for it, but it would allow us to inject some size throughout the defense.

[elsid13]

Weird thing, is that I think Foster's s problem is he has about 20-25 overweight.

It not about the size of the guys it really is about attitude and technique at NFL level. And what really is missing is good technique, that something that Alex Gibbs drilled into the guys and I don't see in on the field right now and that is Dennison problem

[Paladin]

Point is that Kuper, for one,Myers for anopther, are touted as being big AND mobile. Nothing wrong with that. Yet, when there is a straight blocking need - goal line> - the "power isn't there, and the Broncos resort to the finesse pass or the finesse run rather than running that 250 bruiser of a FB up the gut and smack it in.

I once said that a fellow at T who weighed 290 was big, and got shot down voraciously because he was "small" for a T. What we can have is a discussion of philosophical differences on what makes a long term winning team in today's NFL. Well, my answer is to have the big AND mobile Oline, and go for a better Dline (again, I don't really know what that is).

Above, someone mentioned a need for bigger LBs. That's interesting. What for? And how would that make a difference in the current scheme?

[-Slap-]

Your sample size is one. Foster doesn't suck because he's big, he sucks because he's a poor player.

Ben Hamilton gets destroyed, and I mean flat out destroyed against big bull rushers. Nalen gets pushed around a bit too. I can't really fault Pears because he's been asked to do so much with so little and has held his own.

Basically with Cutler at the helm I think you are going to see Shanahan want to pass much more in the future and so are going to see us trend toward bigger players up front.

Seriously. I like Ben and I think he's the future at center, but he gets totally ragdolled a ridiculous amount of the time.

[azbroncfan]

Does everyone here realize that the difference in size we are arguing is less than 20 lbs, on an athlete who weighs over 300 lbs thats a whopping 6%...

Let me give you an example... lets take someone like Kaylor that weighs about 150 lbs soaking wet. Are you people trying to tell me that he couldn't block a guy who weighs 160... I have more faith in Kahn than that. (sorry Kaylor couldn't resist)

Point is people need to stop getting so wrapped up in the measurables... we have had one of the best O-Lines for over a decade. Lets not scrap the best unit we have...

Exactly, 290 vs 310 is minimal. It comes down to attitude technique and strength.

[-Slap-]

Exactly, 290 vs 310 is minimal. It comes down to attitude technique and strength.

Actually, you have to go on a case by case basis, but the problem is these 290 pounders you're talking about, might be natural 250 pounders, who are just maxed out completely. That means there's a huge difference between them and a guy who carries 300+ naturally.

[azbroncfan]

Actually, you have to go on a case by case basis, but the problem is these 290 pounders you're talking about, might be natural 250 pounders, who are just maxed out completely. That means there's a huge difference between them and a guy who carries 300+ naturally.

Like Stinky, when I see him on TV its hard to believe how good he was. Guy might wiegh 210 now.

[Kaylore]

You completely misrepresent my philosophy. I appreciate the importance of speed and I like to have as much as I can on both sides of the ball. What I don't like are entire units that are undersized, such as our linebackers and offensive line.

Mainly, I hate being a finesse team and that's exactly what we have in Denver.
Well I was poking you a bit there. I would also like some bigger guys on the line but I don't think we need to get bigger to get better tackling from our linebackers.

I was mostly referring to your concerns about our linebackers. You tend to poo-poo smaller linebackers and over attribute their struggles to their being smaller. There are guys like Zach Thomas and Brooks in the league who are "undersized" and have had Hall of Fame careers. When you look at the fact that even smaller safeties in the league are tackling better than we have at linebacker this year, it's hard for me to swallow that all we're missing is some size.

I do agree that we aren't playing physical enough. I think we need to get bigger and meaner on both sides of the ball. I like the way the Titans play. you look at that division and you can tell that they understand beating teams like the colts means playing physical and being disruptive.

[rbackfactory80]

Well I was poking you a bit there. I would also like some bigger guys on the line but I don't think we need to get bigger to get better tackling from our linebackers.

I was mostly referring to your concerns about our linebackers. You tend to poo-poo smaller linebackers and over attribute their struggles to their being smaller. There are guys like Zach Thomas and Brooks in the league who are "undersized" and have had Hall of Fame careers. When you look at the fact that even smaller safeties in the league are tackling better than we have at linebacker this year, it's hard for me to swallow that all we're missing is some size.

I do agree that we aren't playing physical enough. I think we need to get bigger and meaner on both sides of the ball. I like the way the Titans play. you look at that division and you can tell that they understand beating teams like the colts means playing physical and being disruptive.

Those two are examples of undersized players that play a lot bigger that their actual size, however it is a lot easier to find guys that play like their 300 pounds, that are 300 pounds. I heard somewhere today that Taylor on the Dolphins is weighing in around the upper 230 pound range.

[Mile High Shack]

Actually, you have to go on a case by case basis, but the problem is these 290 pounders you're talking about, might be natural 250 pounders, who are just maxed out completely. That means there's a huge difference between them and a guy who carries 300+ naturally.

I'm not entirely sure that is the case either

I think most of these 300+ lb guys are really only about 270 naturally, they have to eat very unhealthy to keep that weight up...which is why people are concerned about these guys' hearts when they retire

[Finger Roll]

I would love a bigger defense too. Maybe then they won't get worn out late in games or late in the season.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

KC's OL isn't that big. In fact, it needs to get bigger.

[azbroncfan]

I would love a bigger defense too. Maybe then they won't get worn out late in games or late in the season.

What is your avatar?

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

KC's OL isn't that big. In fact, it needs to get bigger.

Maybe you should share your diet plan ;D

[Rohirrim]

It's really hard to know where the Broncos are at. I just keep remembering how high on Courtney Shanahan and Coyer were in the preseason. Then, he goes out for the season. Who knows what this D would have looked like with a healthy Courtney? So, the plan got screwed. Then, we lose Lepsis and the Oline gets patched. It's just hard to know what might have been. Personally, I think Lepsis is a top ten LT. That's a major loss. Both lines were patchwork this season.

[Finger Roll]

a friend of mine

[-Slap-]

I was mostly referring to your concerns about our linebackers. You tend to poo-poo smaller linebackers and over attribute their struggles to their being smaller. There are guys like Zach Thomas and Brooks in the league who are "undersized" and have had Hall of Fame careers. When you look at the fact that even smaller safeties in the league are tackling better than we have at linebacker this year, it's hard for me to swallow that all we're missing is some size.


If you want to just sit down and name off good undersized defensive players we've seen play, I'll bet my list will be considerably longer than yours.

I remember when the two TE set became the rage and people predicted LBs like TJ were going to wash out of the League. I think it was his third or fourth season in the NFL, right before he was named First Team All Pro.

My boyhood hero Jack Youngblood used to start each season at about 250 pounds and finish the year under 230.

The tackling across the board in the NFL has gotten sloppy as hell in recent years and that's because too many teams trust the stopwatch more than they do their scouts. If there's one goddamn cliche that pisses me off more than any other, its "sideline to sideline speed". There are 11 players on defense, so sideline to sideline speed isn't necessary. Show me how you handle business in your assigned gap.

Our linebackers can't line up on the edge and give the quarterback second thoughts. They make the offensive tackle chuckle to himself instead. They require a defensive lineman to eat blockers for them, instead of being able to meet and stack at the point of attack. Those are two example where having puny linebackers limits us that have nothing to do with tackling.

[Kaylore]

If you want to just sit down and name off good undersized defensive players we've seen play, I'll bet my list will be considerably longer than yours.

I remember when the two TE set became the rage and people predicted LBs like TJ were going to wash out of the League. I think it was his third or fourth season in the NFL, right before he was named First Team All Pro.

My boyhood hero Jack Youngblood used to start each season at about 250 pounds and finish the year under 230.

The tackling across the board in the NFL has gotten sloppy as hell in recent years and that's because too many teams trust the stopwatch more than they do their scouts. If there's one goddamn cliche that pisses me off more than any other, its "sideline to sideline speed". There are 11 players on defense, so sideline to sideline speed isn't necessary. Show me how you handle business in your assigned gap.

Our linebackers can't line up on the edge and give the quarterback second thoughts. They make the offensive tackle chuckle to himself instead. They require a defensive lineman to eat blockers for them, instead of being able to meet and stack at the point of attack. Those are two example where having puny linebackers limits us that have nothing to do with tackling.

Well then let me press you a bit further. Do you think any of our current stock are good enough or do you feel we need to start over from scratch?

[-Slap-]

Well then let me press you a bit further. Do you think any of our current stock are good enough or do you feel we need to start over from scratch?

Wilson is integral to the scheme and I wouldn't give up on DJ yet, although his inconsistency is frustrating. I think Ian played pretty well up until the Indy game, too. Its more about what we lack at linebacker than what those guys provide, because they can all play. I just don't like playing them all together.

I'm really thinking the 3-4 might not be a bad idea. Its true we'll have to revamp the personnel in the front seven, but so what? If those guys were doing the job, we wouldn't be having these conversations.

I think we could play Al and DJ as 3-4 backers, and possibly give Elvis some reps there, too. That probably wouldn't work, but I guarantee they would try.

[azbroncfan]

I found a perfect 300 lb LT surfing the net looking for prospects. He is a little soft but he carries it naturally like SLAP was saying is hard to find. Here is his pic

[Kaylore]

Wilson is integral to the scheme and I wouldn't give up on DJ yet, although his inconsistency is frustrating. I think Ian played pretty well up until the Indy game, too. Its more about what we lack at linebacker than what those guys provide, because they can all play. I just don't like playing them all together.

I'm really thinking the 3-4 might not be a bad idea. Its true we'll have to revamp the personnel in the front seven, but so what? If those guys were doing the job, we wouldn't be having these conversations.

I think we could play Al and DJ as 3-4 backers, and possibly give Elvis some reps there, too. That probably wouldn't work, but I guarantee they would try.

I don't think we could do a 3-4 without blowing everything up. We don't have someone to play nose tackle, we don't have the kind of ends you need, and our linebackers aren't (surprise) big enough.

I feel like what's lost in the ability to rush the passer is gained in the ability to drop into coverage, but under that setup you need to be able get pressure with your front four. Right now we need a couple good players at the line whereas in a 3-4 we'd need quite a few more and probably officially put us into rebuilding mode, though you could make the case were there anyway.

I guess I think we're closer than people think and it's easier to patch up what we have the blow the whole thing up start over.

[-Slap-]

I think we're close, too. I just wish we could ditch the finesse bull**** and start punching people in the mouth.

[freak6]

I think we're close, too. I just wish we could ditch the finesse bull**** and start punching people in the mouth.

I think we stay with the 4-3 , just add a Keith Traylor bullrusher type. That guy made some HUGE plays for us. Not many know it but he created 2 turnovers in our SB wins. I think out DTs are borderline. I think Ekuban is having a very good season, and the fact Shanny is moving him inside is evidence of his faith in our other DEs. The DTs - Gerard Warren included are subpar imo.

[elsid13]

I think we're close, too. I just wish we could ditch the finesse bull**** and start punching people in the mouth.

That is as much about attitude as anything else. I'm surprise the Al Wilson hasn't imprinted his personality more on this defense.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I think the problem here is that we're faced with a dilemna that's not easy to solve because it means going away from something that's worked so well. On the one hand, we've achieved huge success running the ball over the entire Shanahan era and we've done it by cheating the system...drafting runners who churn out thousand plus yard seasons in the 5th round, digging undersized linemen out of the bargain bin, and turning our attention at the top of the draft to other places instead. You could argue that it's a system we should stick with. After all, how can you argue with being the #1 rushing team in the league over an entire decade? Achieving that is outstanding enough...but to do it with no names and players other teams for the most part didn't want...that is really incredible.

The problem however, is that we have made the committment to Jay Cutler and for better or worse...this kid is NOW the centerpiece of this offense...and if he pans out as we think...he's going to be the focal point of our offensive strategy for at least the next 12 years. That fact alone DEMANDS that we do whatever it takes to put the kind of pass blocking in front of him that it takes for him to be successful, and frankly I don't think we can do that by remaining as small on the O-line as we've been all this time. It worked in the Elway era but D-lines are even bigger now than they were just 8 years ago. We've gotten so used to our small offensive line that we look at Foster and we think this guy's a giant. The truth is he's now pretty much an average sized offensive tackle by the NFL standards in 2006. Shanahan drafted him because he had the kind of quick feet and mobility rare in a big man. To bad his heart isn't as large as his body.

One way or the other we have to get bigger. IF that means ditching the stretch zone blocking scheme...I don't see what alternative we have. But before we do that...I'm wondering if we couldn't find the guys were looking for in terms of quickness and mobility AND size as well, as long as we're willing to look for them in the 1st round of the draft instead of the free agent scrap heap or the 6th round.

This running game was dominant behind smaller OL guys when we had QUALITY guys who could both run and pass block for Elway and Davis. That line wasn't that big but it was more talented than what we have now. Its NOT all about the system. We still have to find talent. Kuper looks like he might be the beginning. I don't think there's another guy on the current team that we need here in two years. Lepsis is 32...Hamilton is 40 pounds smaller than the average NFL guard...Nails is almost done...Foster's history after this year. We better face facts...we need to DRAFT some serious studs in both lines...but the O-line guys probably have to come first because it takes longer for those guys to be productive in the NFL than it does on the defensive side, and regardless of the consequences to the defense, we can't afford to let Cutler suffer the same fate John did in the early Reeves era.

I'm OK with keeping the stretch zone...in fact I'm hoping we do...but we better find guys that are at least 25 pounds per man bigger or we're not going to be able to keep Cutler from spending most of his time on his back. Our only other option IMO, is to spend anything that it takes...ANYTHING...to move WAY UP in the draft and pick a stud runner that is a virutal lock...personally I'm partial to something in the top 5...like maybe Adrian Peterson. With Tomlinson and Johnson in the divisoin...we need a back to rival them anyway...but taking this route would give us a better running game in the short term while we buld an O-line through the draft.

[OrangeShadow]

That is as much about attitude as anything else. I'm surprise the Al Wilson hasn't imprinted his personality more on this defense.

I agree, we need more of the lynch,kennoy kennedy type of style.

[loborugger]

Lost in this talk of getting bigger...

Has anyone noticed that a handful of DEs (Strahan and Taylor come to mind) are losing weight to improve their play? They seem to be a lot faster. Also, they think they will increase their longevity in the league.

If we stack up a ton of weight on the line, we may find our O line is like a large immobile barrier that these guys will just run around.

I think Slap is right on. We need mean (at least on the O Line) not necessarily bigger.

[Rock Chalk]

I dont mind the size on the O-line. We should be running the ball anyway. What I mind is being pushed around on the goal line like we dont belong in the end zone and tossing these faggy fade passes from 5 yards in. This is what FINESSE teams do and, sadly, thats what this pansy group of Donks has become.

[-Slap-]

Well then let me press you a bit further. Do you think any of our current stock are good enough or do you feel we need to start over from scratch?

Take a look at the impact Julian Peterson is having tonight.

How much better would we be on defense if he was manning one of the OLB positions?

I wish we would have dumped Pryce a year sooner and gave Peterson his and Gold's money.

[Rascal]

I think we are fine on the o-line especially if Hamilton moves to center and Kuper starts at the other guard. If we could get a good blocking TE (Daniel Graham please) and a good blocking FB that would do wonders.

I think we need a stud DT with our current set of LB's, or just one period, and a stud DE.

I wouldn't mind getting rid of Gold either and putting DJ back on the weekside, and then getting a good SLB.

And then of course I would like to get a better safety and a better CB, a kick returner, a ST's coach.

Somebody pass the weed.

[Kaylore]

I dont mind the size on the O-line....What I mind is being pushed around on the goal line\
The problem is that those two things are totally related. Small offensive linemen can't matchup that well against the jumbo defenses.

Footsteps is right. I think with a QB that can pass the ball we'll see some bigger guys come in to help tend the offense toward that aspect of our game. I also think while we'll see more man-blocking schemes. The zone will still be a part of what we bring but I'm almost positive that we're going to see some major changes this offseason at both lines and maybe even in the coaching staffs on both sides.

I've said it before, but I'll just restate it here. I'd like to see us draft for two defensive linemen next draft. I'd also like to see us re-sign carlisle and trade Ben Hamilton...unless Nalen retires. Then we move Hamilton to Center. Either way we roll Carlisle to left Guard, bring up Kuper to right guard and have Pears and Lepsis fight it out for left tackle with the loser playing the other side. Then we'd have a much bigger line and not have to even add any new personnel.

As for the D-line, we need to start on the inside and work out. Then we go get a decent number two corner and let D-wil play nickle and return punts/kicks. We could also draft some help at safety.

I'd also like to see us abandon this cutesy line-stunting crap. All it appears to do is wear out the defensive line quickly and it's too easily picked up.

That's not a tall order and I think it's one that might help things significantly.

[Rascal]

Why in the hell would you want asswipe at RT?

Put lepsis at LT and let Meadows and Pears fight it out at RT.

I wouldn't mind trading Hamilton and putting Kuper at RG and Carlisle at LG. Carlisle is probably our best o-lineman we have playing now anyway.

I think either Myers or Eslinger could do well at center although there would be some growign pains.

[Kaylore]

Take a look at the impact Julian Peterson is having tonight.

How much better would we be on defense if he was manning one of the OLB positions?

I wish we would have dumped Pryce a year sooner and gave Peterson his and Gold's money.

Obviously there is a lot you can do with a big linebacker like that. I think considering our woes right now it looks really good because he has what we need. The problem is that our scheme is designed to neutralize the runs to the edge and force the play inside. We've never been a team that could bring the heat up the middle and that's by design. I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just saying "yeah, but that's not us"...for better or for worse. :-/

By the way, Alex Smith just marched the niners down the field and hit Vernon for six. ;) We're one of the better tight-end defending teams with our scheme as is.

[Rascal]

I think D-will and our d-line would be well served if we got some decent coaches. Fire slovik and Patterson and bring some people in that have proven they can develop talent. Why they have D-will playing the same way as Champ when it's obvious he can't is just stupid. And if Patterson can't get four #1 draft picks to perform better then this then he needs to go as well.

[Kaylore]

Why in the hell would you want asswipe at RT?

Put lepsis at LT and let Meadows and Pears fight it out at RT.

I wouldn't mind trading Hamilton and putting Kuper at RG and Carlisle at LG. Carlisle is probably our best o-lineman we have playing now anyway.

I think either Myers or Eslinger could do well at center although there would be some growign pains.

Why would anyone want who at RT?

Pears could beat out Lepsis if you went on their ground yielded and handicaped Pears based on his experience. He's bigger than Lepsis. I think either way, when we get healthy there again, between Meadows, Lepsis and Pears we will be just fine at both tackle positions.

Cooper Carlisle is one of the best linemen we have this season. Atlas was the first to point it out to me and after watching him this last year he's really impressed. Consider that he's been playing next to the worst guy on our line when you evaluate him. I also think if he wasn't playing this well you'd have seen Chris Kuper in the lineup sooner.

Myers and Eslinger...I honestly don't know. Both seemed to have some problems to me. Myers is very smart but not physically as gifted and Eslinger is technically very sound but small and I don't know how much his frame will hold. We'll see on those two, but my vote would be Hamilton or Myers.

[Rascal]

I thought you said loser as in foster, not the loser of the battle between Pears and Lepsis.

I think you are wrong in your analysis of Lepsis and Pears, but it doesn't matter. It will be decided in the offseason and depend on Lepsis ability to respond to the surgery he had.

I've been high on Carlisle for the past year plus now after I initially thought he was crap, which he was. And like you I said we would be fine at tackle with Meadows, Pears, and Lepsis fighting it out.

Well Eslinger is 6'3" and 290 already so he is bigger then Hamilton and Nalen. He needed to improve his upper body strength when we drafted him but a year with Tuten should take care of that. Plus he ran a very similar scheme in college.

[ludo21]

Last TD Peterson got burned for a TD, and on a naked boot he loses his containment big time LOL

[Kaylore]

Last TD Peterson got burned for a TD, and on a naked boot he loses his containment big time LOL

Yeah. There are definitely some weaknesses that go along with being a big physical linebacker. That whole team hasn't tackled very well all year, either.

[Rock Chalk]

The problem is that those two things are totally related. Small offensive linemen can't matchup that well against the jumbo defenses.

I seem to remember a lightish o-line in the late nineties ramming it down people's throats on the goal line.

Footsteps is right. I think with a QB that can pass the ball we'll see some bigger guys come in to help tend the offense toward that aspect of our game. I also think while we'll see more man-blocking schemes. The zone will still be a part of what we bring but I'm almost positive that we're going to see some major changes this offseason at both lines and maybe even in the coaching staffs on both sides.

Im waiting for him to pass the ball. 4 or 5 good passes in two games and some horribly off target deep passes to double and triple covered Javon.

I've said it before, but I'll just restate it here. I'd like to see us draft for two defensive linemen next draft. I'd also like to see us re-sign carlisle and trade Ben Hamilton...unless Nalen retires. Then we move Hamilton to Center. Either way we roll Carlisle to left Guard, bring up Kuper to right guard and have Pears and Lepsis fight it out for left tackle with the loser playing the other side. Then we'd have a much bigger line and not have to even add any new personnel.

Id like to have seen us draft two defensive linemen in the last draft, and the one before that, and the one before that. You know, spend money on the group. Not get rejects from the worst team in football. Cant trade Hamilton, Nalen will retire either after this year or next. Cut Foster outright and pray to God Taco is finally right about Cutler after being wrong on everyone else.

As for the D-line, we need to start on the inside and work out. Then we go get a decent number two corner and let D-wil play nickle and return punts/kicks. We could also draft some help at safety.

Im fairly certain its more to do with scheme than D Will. Too many knowledgeable folks have high praise for him. You know, football people like Champ Bailey, Mike Shanahan, most analysts. Even Jeremy Green who is a huge AFC West talent guy. Coyer just sucks.

I'd also like to see us abandon this cutesy line-stunting crap. All it appears to do is wear out the defensive line quickly and it's too easily picked up.

I dont want to abandon line stunts, I just want them to be implemented like other teams who are successful. Our DC is an idiot and doesnt know how to scheme around any damn thing.

That's not a tall order and I think it's one that might help things significantly.
Yeah, fix the D-line, fix the O-line, get a complete TE, a real FB in the Lorenzo Neal/Richardson mold, upgrade the SLB move DJ back to WLB, get rid of Gold, replace the safeties, maybe get some more depth in the secondary because FOx is horrible and Paymah is worse, and fire the DC. Not a tall order at all.

But hey, we got our QB of the future. Lets just hope we can get the things fixed around him before he retires.

[yavoon]

size on the oline isnt an issue. if we jump into the big OL pool then we'll be even more stretched for acquiring talent.

[-Slap-]

Last TD Peterson got burned for a TD, and on a naked boot he loses his containment big time LOL

I stopped watching at halftime, but I'll take your word for it. He also spent much of the first half in the 49er backfield. When all is said and done, he'll be back in the Pro Bowl again this year.

[youcandoit1687]

basically, the sky is falling and our Linemen cant hold it up. PANIC PANIC PANIC.

F all that. our OLine is fine, pears and lepsis at the tackles with meadows as a backupand a day two draft pick, kuper/myers/hamilton/cooper/eslinger in the middle. whoever said that OLinemen take the longest to develop, look at myers and kuper, both are young guys, one got plugged in and has done well, the other is on the verge.

on the DLine, if you mean going bigger as in spending more on DT, then hell yeah. we need a first round DT and a later DT, ATLEAST. our DEs are fine i think with ekuban lang and dumervil but a guy who can play every situation would be nice too.

its funny how at the beginning of the season our LBs speed was great and was the success for the team. now, its a reason why our defense has sucked. yes, they have played subpar but that wouldnt be fixed by a guy who is bigger, slower, and playing jsut as subpar. its not like the guys are playing at their peaks and not getting it done. they have done that but just arent this year for whatever reason.

people, calm down, the sky is not falling. we dont need to go to the 3-4(talk about a long time to develop sheesh) and we dont need to go to a man blocking scheme which would also take awhile.

[ozomulsion]

Harder to find a bigger lineman who can run like smaller lineman do. I agree with you tho, we do need more size on both lines. Its great that our LB's can run, but not when they have to take on linemen who can get by our d line.

:Broncos:

All the other zone blocking teams Ravens, Falcons ect. have much bigger lineman than us.

[azbroncfan]

To get bigger athletic OL would require to use high picks and that is why Denver's OL are smaller is they are as athletic and talented but don't hold the size. Unless you plan on spending high picks on OL which I'm not necessarily against the line will remain a shade below 300. It's not like athletic, strong, quick, and big OL are laying around everywhere and they are one of the higher paid positions.

[Circle Orange]

They can be big, but they'd better have quick feet or good technique...otherwise they'll get eaten alive by talented linebackers and defensive ends. Everyone's big...that alone isn't enough.

[Circle Orange]

To get bigger athletic OL would require to use high picks and that is why Denver's OL are smaller is they are as athletic and talented but don't hold the size. Unless you plan on spending high picks on OL which I'm not necessarily against the line will remain a shade below 300. It's not like athletic, strong, quick, and big OL are laying around everywhere and they are one of the higher paid positions.

The league's full of belly busters. Maybe they should eat more. LOL

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

basically, the sky is falling and our Linemen cant hold it up. PANIC PANIC PANIC.

F all that. our OLine is fine, pears and lepsis at the tackles with meadows as a backupand a day two draft pick, kuper/myers/hamilton/cooper/eslinger in the middle. whoever said that OLinemen take the longest to develop, look at myers and kuper, both are young guys, one got plugged in and has done well, the other is on the verge.

on the DLine, if you mean going bigger as in spending more on DT, then hell yeah. we need a first round DT and a later DT, ATLEAST. our DEs are fine i think with ekuban lang and dumervil but a guy who can play every situation would be nice too.

its funny how at the beginning of the season our LBs speed was great and was the success for the team. now, its a reason why our defense has sucked. yes, they have played subpar but that wouldnt be fixed by a guy who is bigger, slower, and playing jsut as subpar. its not like the guys are playing at their peaks and not getting it done. they have done that but just arent this year for whatever reason.

people, calm down, the sky is not falling. we dont need to go to the 3-4(talk about a long time to develop sheesh) and we dont need to go to a man blocking scheme which would also take awhile.

I appreciate your passion for the defense, but get ready to be disappointed. This offseason will be all about improving the offense. At the beginning of this year there were 12 new faces on offense. Be prepared for the same type of turnover this year.

[youcandoit1687]

why? why is everybody saying turnover on offense. our passing game looked pretty good against teh chargers(and it will improve game by game) and our run game is still top 5 in the league. yes the league will all those guys that are giants against our high school team.

tatum has 249 the last two games.

[youcandoit1687]

All the other zone blocking teams Ravens, Falcons ect. have much bigger lineman than us.

funny thing is that we are ahead of the falcons by 300 yards in rushing(i subtracted vicks numbers) and 600 ahead of the ravens.

as for pass blocking, just looking at the stats, atlanta has allowed 11 more sacks and baltimore 7 less. im not even sure atlanta's linemen are that big.

[youcandoit1687]

oh and the two top tackle prospects in the nation this year, joe thomas and jake long, are 306 and 316, respectively. there arent any of these 400 pound mammoths that you all talk about.

[Kaylore]

All the other zone blocking teams Ravens, Falcons ect. have much bigger lineman than us.

The Ravens don't run a zone scheme.

[youcandoit1687]

The Ravens don't run a zone scheme.


thats what i thought, and the falcons OLine isnt that big.

[skpac1001]

Colts Broncos
C Jeff Saturday 295 Nalen 286 Eslinger 292 (or bigger after this year)
RG Jake Scott 295 Carlisle 295 Kuper 302
LG Ryan Lilja 290 Hamilton 283 Myers 300
RT Ryan Diem 320 Meadows 290 Foster 338
LT Tarik Glenn 332 Lepsis 290 Pears 305
Future is there, except maybe at tackles.

[elsid13]

The Ravens don't run a zone scheme.

Kaylore they run a version of it, but mix in a lot of man up blocking because Lewis likes to run the dive up the middle. What they don't do is the aggressive back side blocking like Denver, Houston, Green Bay and Atlanta

It one of the reason, the Ravens were interested in Cooper Carlisle a couple of years ago, why the pickup Anderson.

[-Slap-]

That's why they went from churning out a 2000 yard back to a line with no identity. They're too big, old and immobile to run the zone scheme efficiently and dabbling in it is hurting more than helping. Much like the way we often get caught pantsless when we dabble in the zone blitz. If you don't have adequate personnel to execute a particular scheme, leave it the **** alone.

[Circle Orange]

thats what i thought, and the falcons OLine isnt that big.

Nah, they skitter everywhere like roaches on water. And the Falcon's running stats are inflated because Vick runs a lot. I hear a rumor that he might line up at running back since Dunn is nursing a calf injury (I find this hard to believe myself).

[youcandoit1687]

nah i heard that was a joke some reporter made to him and he got all POed. they are the new team turmoil, worse than the giants of a couple weeks ago.

[Play2win]

As for the D...

If we get a real DT, and the whole defense gets alot better. We get a real D-LINE, So the whole rest of the DEFENSE doesn't have to cover for their inadequacies. Everybody on Defense is playing their position PLUS helping and covering for the D-LINE. Can you imagine how much better each position would be, if their responsibilities were just to take care of their OWN business.