Would You Make This Trade?

[epicSocialism4tw]

Jay Cutler / DJ Willams

to

Chicago

for

Tommie Harris / Thomas Jones

[Sassy]

Nope.

[Kaylore]

:spit:

Never in a million years.

But I don't wonder if Bear fans would.

[broncofan]

Never in a million years.

[spdirty]

hell no!!! Cutler is the franchise!

[Kaylore]

Would you, Llama?

[(Jae)]

No...............

For you Plummer Lovers, he isnt going to play forever.
Cutler is the future like it or not.
And i'm not giving up my youngest linebacker for Thomas Jones who been used like a rented mule and has alot of mileage. Although he's very good.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

No. You're creating a QB hole to try to fix the DL, and they need more than Harris to fix it. Trading DJ just means you'll need to either use another pick or spend more in FA than DJ costs to fill his starting spot. Not too terribly impressed with Jones. This year will be his 2nd 1,000 season in his career, his ypc is 4, and he's only scored 4 rushing TDs this year.

You make trades from positions of strength to fill needs, Denver gives up players at two positions they don't have a replacement for.

[epicSocialism4tw]

This is more of a question of whether or not you are willing to make a superbowl run now, or wait for a few years to see if the pieces in Denver's arsenal have improved.

The grass is always greener, but this is a team that was in the AFC title game last season and really lacked only a dominant line and a runningback who can take some punishment.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

This is more of a question of whether or not you are willing to make a superbowl run now, or wait for a few years to see if the pieces in Denver's arsenal have improved.

The grass is always greener, but this is a team that was in the AFC title game last season and really lacked only a dominant line and a runningback who can take some punishment.

Whatever dude, keep dreaming. The QB who got benched was not taking a team with Harris and Jones to the Super Bowl. Denver's running game was effective enough most nights and Jake still couldn't do jack.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Jay Cutler is a rookie with no proven track record.

Tommie Harris is perhaps the best two-phase DT in the NFL, and is only in his third season. That might make him the most important defensive player in the league.

I take Harris over Cutler 10/10 times.

[azbroncfan]

Chicago would be lucky to make the playoffs in AFC.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Whatever dude, keep dreaming. The QB who got benched was not taking a team with Harris and Jones to the Super Bowl. Denver's running game was effective enough most nights and Jake still couldn't do jack.

Jake has a history we can recall. Cutler has none.

It looks like you are the one dreaming. Dreaming of an Elway Christmas...just like the one's we used to know...

You need to wake up, buddy.

[Kaylore]

Jay Cutler is a rookie with no proven track record.

Tommie Harris is perhaps the best two-phase DT in the NFL, and is only in his third season. That might make him the most important defensive player in the league.

I take Harris over Cutler 10/10 times.

You are an excellent evaluator of talent, that's for sure. :~ohyah!:

[spdirty]

We still wouldnt make a legit SB run this year if we made that deal because Jake is our QB.

Now, replace Jay with Tatum, then I might think about it.

[Orange_Beard]

No.....
More lets start Jake crap...........

[Broncojef]

I'd trade Plummer to them for their Defensive studs, thats about it. Cutler??? You must be on drugs.

[epicSocialism4tw]

We still wouldnt make a legit SB run this year if we made that deal because Jake is our QB.

Now, replace Jay with Tatum, then I might think about it.

There is no way that Chicago considers that.

Heck, they would laugh in Sundquists face if he offered the trade that I mentioned to start the thread.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Jake has a history we can recall. Cutler has none.

It looks like you are the one dreaming. Dreaming of an Elway Christmas...just like the one's we used to know...

You need to wake up, buddy.

What playoff track record does Jack have in Denver? You're dreaming if you think Jake's done anything of note in the playoffs in Denver to think that adding another RB is going to magically improve his play. FTR, Denver's rush offenses were ranked #2, #4, and #2 the previous 3 seasons.

BTW, congrats on going to your pre-emptive Elway defense so fast. Shows how truly weak your argument is. What did I say about Cutler? That trading him creates another hole at QB that must be filled another way. Yep, way to get the Elway comparison out of that one.

What an incredibly weak post. Please come back with something stronger next time Llama.

[ColoradoDarin]

There is no way that Chicago considers that.

Heck, they would laugh in Sundquists face if he offered the trade that I mentioned to start the thread.

So does that mean we should just laugh in your face? :thanku:

[spdirty]

There is no way that Chicago considers that.

Heck, they would laugh in Sundquists face if he offered the trade that I mentioned to start the thread.

Sundquist would laugh in their faces if they mentioned the trade you want to him.

[epicSocialism4tw]

What playoff track record does Jack have in Denver? You're dreaming if you think Jake's done anything of note in the playoffs in Denver to think that adding another RB is going to magically improve his play. FTR, Denver's rush offenses were ranked #2, #4, and #2 the previous 3 seasons.

BTW, congrats on going to your pre-emptive Elway defense so fast. Shows how truly weak your argument is. What did I say about Cutler? That trading him creates another hole at QB that must be filled another way. Yep, way to get the Elway comparison out of that one.

What an incredibly weak post. Please come back with something stronger next time Llama.

You missed the whole point, dude. It wasnt about Plummer. The consideration of Plummer's contribution is minimal in the scheme of things I proposed. I'm surprised that you didnt take the time to think about it.

[Guessed]

This is more of a question of whether or not you are willing to make a superbowl run now, or wait for a few years to see if the pieces in Denver's arsenal have improved.

The grass is always greener, but this is a team that was in the AFC title game last season and really lacked only a dominant line and a runningback who can take some punishment.

I think this team, even with the proposed trade you put forth, is a few cards short of a full deck. Yes, they were close last year but some of the chinks in the armor are being exposed this year.

Regarding the offseason, as usual some players are on the rise (Cutler, Marshall) while some have peaked and are on the decline (Rod, Nalen, Elam, Lynch). Holes need to be filled as usual. We can only hope that for the Broncos the additions through the draft, free agency and player improvement there's an incoming tide that rises faster than the competition. There are no guarantees.

[Orange_Beard]

You missed the whole point, dude. It wasnt about Plummer.

If you trade Cutler, who leads the SB run?

[Hercules Rockefeller]

You missed the whole point, dude. It wasnt about Plummer.

If this wasn't about Plummer, who is going to magically QB this team when Cutler gets traded to Chicago for a RB and a DT? Either you have no ability to think through the consequences of your hypothetical trade and are not bright enough to realize that Jake goes back in the starting lineup, or you're lying that this isn't about Jake.

[Orange_Beard]

If this wasn't about Plummer, who is going to magically QB this team when Cutler gets traded to Chicago for a RB and a DT? Either you have no ability to think through the consequences of your hypothetical trade and are not bright enough to realize that Jake goes back in the starting lineup, or you're lying that this isn't about Jake.

I guess BVP.

WTF?

[epicSocialism4tw]

If this wasn't about Plummer, who is going to magically QB this team when Cutler gets traded to Chicago for a RB and a DT? Either you have no ability to think through the consequences of your hypothetical trade and are not bright enough to realize that Jake goes back in the starting lineup, or you're lying that this isn't about Jake.

It's about dominating the other side of the ball while the players are here to do that instead of rebuilding because the offense doesnt dominate like we are used to seeing.

Our secondary is abnormally talented. It contains the best CB in the business, a wily vet safety who can still play in the run game and pass blitz well, two young ballhawking/well-tackling young players, and dynamic LB's.

Our DLine lacks the talent and depth to bother a solid QB with an above average pass-blocking unit in the fourth quarter. Tommie Harris is one of the quickest, most creative and elusive DT's I have seen in awhile. He can collapse the pocket nearly on his own. We have players that can clean up the garbage if other players create opportunities. Ekuban, Warren, and even Engleberger can do that. Tommie Harris drastically improves this unit. It becomes "superbowl" good.

[epicSocialism4tw]

If you trade Cutler, who leads the SB run?

Now you're starting to get there...keep on truckin'.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Just some food for thought...before the defense "broke", the Broncos were in the running for homefield advantage.

[listopencil]

Maybe in fantasy football.


No, not even then.

[azbroncfan]

Just some food for thought...before the defense "broke", the Broncos were in the running for homefield advantage.

You could tell a train wreck was on the way though. Alot of the wins KC, OAK both times if they had a better Qb they would of won because WR were running open and Qb just couldn't get them the ball.

[Taco John]

Dreaming of an Elway Christmas...just like the one's we used to know...


Where can I download this song?

[SoCalBronco]

Hell No.

[epicSocialism4tw]

You could tell a train wreck was on the way though. Alot of the wins KC, OAK both times if they had a better Qb they would of won because WR were running open and Qb just couldn't get them the ball.


...and because the QB had time to get it there. Now, make the QB afraid to step up into the pocket because Big Money and Tommie Freakin Harris are on the way through at any moment.

A dominant D-line has just as much of an impact on a game as a dominant QB (see Steelers vs. Colts, Pats vs. Colts, Chargers vs. Colts, etc.) Manning's pass blocking is well above average and those guys were still able to get into his mind by taking more than their fair share of the LOS.

[Taco John]

If I believed that Jake could lead this team for another 4 years, and give us a legitimate chance of winning it all in at least 50% of those years, then sure, I'd make that trade. We could use the D-line help, and Tommie Harris is as good as they come.

But since I don't...

Honestly. It's not because I just flat hate Jake. I don't. I just don't think he's got what it takes to lead a team to the Superbowl. He presses in the playoffs, and as a result, the entire team starts pressing. People don't just play with ease trusting eachother. They start trying to do extra to make up for what they subconsciously think is lacking. Who here doesn't believe we'd have lost that Patriots game if it wasn't for Champ intercepting that ball in the endzone and running it all the way back? The fact that we made it to the AFC Championship game at all was due to Champ (once again) changing the entire fortune of our team. Tom Brady was standing over our playoff coffin with a hammer and a handful of nails. Our offense wasn't going to pull out a last minute miracle there. When is the last time you saw a Jake Plummer play an the words "Mile High Magic" crossed your mind?

That would be never for me. So is that a measure against Elway? Not anymore it's not. Because we've seen it twice this year: once from Javon, and once from Marshall. Now we just need someone who can get the ball to these guys with any kind of accuracy and consistency. I think once that starts happening, our defense is going to have a huge weight lifted off of their shoulders and we're going to be able to start getting aggressive again, knowing that our offense can get us out of a jam if need be.

I don't believe our Superbowl defenses were head and shoulders more talented than this defensive unit. I just believe that they trusted eachother and they trusted the offense. They knew that they could get aggressive and make mistakes because they had plenty of cusion to work with. Our defense has literally no margin for error right now. None. Would that change with Tommie Harris on our team?

[theAPAOps5]

angryllama what in the hell are you smokin? You must be hallucinating! DUMBEST TRADE EVER!!!!!! :P

[Popps]

He presses in the playoffs, and as a result, the entire team starts pressing.

Yea, he didn't "press" when his defense and running game showed up. Actually, he won. He threw one bad pass in that game and it was more a great play on the ball than anything.

When his defense put him in a 4-score ****-can, yep..he pressed. He's not Elway. He's not the guy you want to ask to single-handledly win Superbowls for you.

Had our entire team shown up against Pittsburgh, who knows what would have happened. Seattle was obviously beatable.

So, to say he "couldn't lead us to a Superbowl" is pretty silly considering we were a game away. Jake was an effective system QB for us. Anyone expecting him to do cartwheels when our D mailed it in must not have watched the team much over the past few years.

So, now we're either going to have to put a complete team around Jay, or hope that he can superman us to playoff victories when the team breaks down around him, as they tend to do in big games.

[spdirty]

When is the last time you saw a Jake Plummer play an the words "Mile High Magic" crossed your mind?

Denver-Cleveland. 2003. Wouldn't have gotten slaughtered in the playoffs if not not that magical "Jake to Ashley" toss.;D

[azbroncfan]

...and because the QB had time to get it there. Now, make the QB afraid to step up into the pocket because Big Money and Tommie Freakin Harris are on the way through at any moment.

A dominant D-line has just as much of an impact on a game as a dominant QB (see Steelers vs. Colts, Pats vs. Colts, Chargers vs. Colts, etc.) Manning's pass blocking is well above average and those guys were still able to get into his mind by taking more than their fair share of the LOS.

Did you forget that the Squeelers jumped up to a 14 pt lead on the Colts allowing them to just rush the passer? Squeelers O had a lot to do with the win. In all the playoff losses since Elway what is the common variable, teams jumping out to a lead and losing TO battle.

[epicSocialism4tw]

First off, thanks for replying with something that has been networked through your frontal lobe. I think that this is a legit discussion, and it is nice to get a reasoned response. :thumbs:

If I believed that Jake could lead this team for another 4 years, and give us a legitimate chance of winning it all in at least 50% of those years, then sure, I'd make that trade. We could use the D-line help, and Tommie Harris is as good as they come.

The issue here is not about Jake being able to lead anything. It's about the defense creating the opportunities and keeping the other team from having any. Its about the defense controlling the ball and wearing out the opposing offense by enforcing their will at the LOS and causing the Mannings of the league to loft balls up for Champ, Darrent, Gold, Wilson, and Foxworth to make plays on. It's about John Lynch or Al Wilson coming free through a gap that Harris creates by simply being on the field and smacking a runningback in the mouth so hard that he cant hold onto the ball. Its about safeties, hurries, passes defensed, fumbles, interceptions, tackles for loss, intimidating hits, and sacks.

It's amazing how much better the Patriots' secondary looked when Seymour and Ted Washington were both there. Has anyone ever wondered why the Patriots are able to plug in scrub DB's who seem to play well within the scheme? It's because their part is easy. They let the big uglies do the work. Belichek keeps his team stocked with DLine talent.


Our offense wasn't going to pull out a last minute miracle there. When is the last time you saw a Jake Plummer play an the words "Mile High Magic" crossed your mind?

I never expected Mile High Magic from Jake, because that was an Elway thing. I did expect him to move the ball, and to make the occasional play by letting the running game carry the offense. That's a whole other issue, but I didnt expect Jake to be Elway. I did, however, see that the defense was one player away from being dominant. Tommie Harris would be that player.

[yerner]

Mark this down as the worst thread I've read this month. I want my three minutes back.

[Obushma]

Mark this down as the worst thread I've read this month. I want my three minutes back.

LOL

[-Slap-]

Jay Cutler / DJ Willams

to

Chicago

for

Tommie Harris / Thomas Jones

Chicago's throwing in three number ones, including one in the top ten right?

[Blueflame]

You missed the whole point, dude. It wasnt about Plummer. The consideration of Plummer's contribution is minimal in the scheme of things I proposed. I'm surprised that you didnt take the time to think about it.

Of course it's about Plummer.... the "no-way-in-hell-it's-gonna-even-be-considered-for-a-nanosecond" trade scheme to get rid of Plummer's successor would leave an empty starting position while shipping off those sour, sour grapes to Chicago....

[epicSocialism4tw]

Chicago's throwing in three number ones, including one in the top ten right?

Why would they? Tommie Harris is the most valuable player in the trade.

[Rascal]

Hell no. No DT is worth more, or even close to the same value, as a franchise QB.

[-Slap-]

This thread is a perfect example of why we won't accept nominations for Worst Thread of the Year prior to December 31st.

[theAPAOps5]

Hell no. No DT is worth more, or even close to the same value, as a franchise QB.

angryllama doesn't think Cutler is a franchise QB thats the point. :approve:

[epicSocialism4tw]

Hell no. No DT is worth more, or even close to the same value, as a franchise QB.

How is Cutler a franchise QB? You have an unknown quantity with potential vs. the top player at his position (at the most important position on the D), who is only going to get better barring disaster.

If John Abraham is worth a late #1, what is Tommie Harris (who is better, younger, more versatile, and more important) worth? He's certainly worth more than the #14 slot that he was selected at two seasons ago.

There is absolutely zero doubt in my mind that St. Louis throws the #11 pick at Chicago and begs them for Tommie Harris.

[Rascal]

How is Cutler a franchise QB? You have an unknown quantity with potential vs. the top player at his position (at the most important position on the D), who is only going to get better barring disaster.

If John Abraham is worth a late #1, what is Tommie Harris (who is better, younger, more versatile, and more important) worth? He's certainly worth more than the #14 slot that he was selected at two seasons ago.

You go ask any GM and they will laugh at your face. QB's like Cutler only come once in a great while, and that is why their is a huge premium for them and why they make significantly more money then DT's.

Cutler may not be yet, but it's widely accepted that he will be. And I wouldn't say T Harris is the best player at his position.

Draft status is insignificant after training camp.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Cutler may not be yet, but it's widely accepted that he will be. And I wouldn't say T Harris is the best player at his position.

Draft status is insignificant after training camp.

How does Tommie Harris' draft postional rating drop after he becomes (here's a qualifier for you) arguably the best defensive player, not only at his position, but in the entire NFL?

If that draft is redone today, Harris is a top 3 pick.

[Killericon]

Has EVERYONE given up on Grossman?

[-Slap-]

How does Tommie Harris' draft postional rating drop after he becomes (here's a qualifier for you) arguably the best defensive player, not only at his position, but in the entire NFL?

If that draft is redone today, Harris is a top 3 pick.

Ask SoCal Bronco how hard I petitioned for Harris, but there's no way in hell I give them Cutler straight up for him.

[SoCalBronco]

Ask SoCal Bronco how hard I petitioned for Harris, but there's no way in hell I give them Cutler straight up for him.

Yep, that year your top three for the #17 overall pick was comprised of
1. Tommie Harris
2. Steven Jackson
3. DJ

[BroncoBuff]

You're kidding, right?

We've got (or can find) running backs. But a franchise QB is a rare bird indeed.

[fontaine]

I can't really blame Plummer supporters who think we could have made a playoff/superbowl run with Jake.

Stockholm Syndrome is alive and kicking.

[Taco John]

Has EVERYONE given up on Grossman?



Those folks are pissed. If anyone thinks we were miserable when we were 7-2 and complaining about Plummer, they ought to drop into a 10-2 Chicago Bears forum and watch those folks tear bone off the flesh. And who can hardly blame them?

[Clockwork Orange]

And who can hardly blame them?

Probably because Grossman has thrown 0 TD's and 6 INT's in the last two games.

Personally, I think they just hate winning. :~ohyah!:

[Taco John]

Personally, I think they just hate winning. :~ohyah!:


:rofl:

You think they might be rooting for the Bears to lose just so that they can get Griese in there...


Poor damned saps.

[Taco John]

I'll be honest with you... If we don't go to the Superbowl, I'd have no problem rooting on the Bears if Griese was their captain, just to see Popps turn himself inside out over the issue. Anyone who understands the phrase "Brad Johnson is an elite quarterback" knows exactly why.

[BroncoBuff]

I saw that phrase quite recently here .... but it wasn't Popps, who was it?

[-Slap-]

Those folks are pissed. If anyone thinks we were miserable when we were 7-2 and complaining about Plummer, they ought to drop into a 10-2 Chicago Bears forum and watch those folks tear bone off the flesh. And who can hardly blame them?

Every time I talk to a Bears fan, I get their opinion on Griese. Many of them notice the Bronco jacket and the leering grin on my face and answer cautiously.

[OrangeShadow]

not in 2 million years

[Dr. Broncenstein]

Angryllama didn't think much of McFadden either...

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Big time player for big time player trades don't happen often in the NFL. Portis/Champ was an anomoly.

This trade - no way.

[bloodsunday]

Cutler is raw and young. Its way too soon to draw any conclusions about him. He might be a bust -- like 50% (or more) of QBs with the expectations about him. Or it might take him 3 or 4 years to develop. I find it comical that people want to look at the exceptions (Marino and Big Ben) and project that kind of success on a rookie.

Harris is a great player. He'd be a conerstone of any franchise's defense.

DJ seems to be losing steam from the hype he came with.

Jones is okay. I think Jones could add some dimentions like pass catching and pass blocking to our offense. I would not be overly concerned about his YPC as they would likely increase in our system -- just like about every back we get. His toughness would be welcomed. BUT, I wouldn't find him a dominant player by any means.

Having said all that I don't think the deal makes sense. Shanahan has clearly hitched his wagon to Cutler and I think his realtionship with Jake is beyond repair. Thus, you are talking about finding another QB to fill the hole as Hercules suggests.

If I had anything to do again, it would probably be this year's draft. I love Cutler, but I am a little unsure of how long this development period is gonna take. I think Denver might have been better served finding a player that contribute now -- we were in the AFCC game last year. There are players that could have been developed at QB without all the acclaim and pressure that a 1st round QB has put on this franchise. Hell Romo was an UFA a few years back. Why was he not in our camp instead of Van Pelt? I remember Schefter said Denver was interested and they coulda had him for a 7th round pick. They always seem to pass on guys like that because our highly paid kicker can't kick off and we only carry two QBs. LeFlour is another guy that intrigues me. Give him a couple of years behind Jake and he could develop.

[socalorado]

anyone open to other trade possibilities?
I think i have one that might work.....And i does not involve a denver Quarterback...

[bendog]

Stop the insanity! A chance at a guy like Cutler comes around once a decade, and even then you need a FO like den's to pull it off.

[fontaine]

Not to piss on anyone's parade, but isn't the trade deadline over?

[bloodsunday]

Stop the insanity! A chance at a guy like Cutler comes around once a decade, and even then you need a FO like den's to pull it off.

Actually there are usually at least 2 first round QBs a year. That's about all he is right now. We have high hopes, he's had good evaluations and grades, but that's never stopped a guy from being a bust before.

We just don't know. And it could be several years before we do.

[Dudeskey]

Jay Cutler / DJ Willams

to

Chicago

for

Tommie Harris / Thomas Jones

**** no... Not even on Madden

[bendog]

When's Den EVER in position to draft a legit franchise tag guy. Last year was a fluke, with Lionheart being marginal physically but with all the titles, and the intrique potential of Young. A GM would be pilloried for taking Cutlett over either of them, even though Cutlett showed more skill.

It's akin to how Pitt "lucked" into Ben ... but Cutler's better physically than him, too.

It's insane to even talk about trading the kid.

[socalorado]

My trade would be in the off season

[Hotrod]

Jay Cutler / DJ Willams

to

Chicago

for

Tommie Harris / Thomas Jones

Just as I suspected your Carl Peterson or Matt Millan

[Drek]

Cutler is better than Plummer by a margin larger than Jones is over a Tatum/Mike tandem, assuming Tatum can stay healthy for even 65% of the carries going forward.

I'd also argue that the gap between DJ to Louis Green/Nate Webster/Keith Burns is much larger than the gap between Harris to Myers.

At that point we need to find a way to balance the talent differences with picks and FA signings, so why not just fill the original positions of need in that fashion and enjoy the talented guys we already have in our system?

Why in hell would we make that trade? And for that matter, why would Chicago when Grossman is probably a better QB than Cutler at this point, dispite his issues, and they have two quality OLBs that DJ is a marginal upgrade over but have no legit DT within spitting distance of Harris' talent level.

Stop trying to match talent for talent and think about what the upgrades for the teams would be. The only way we could get Harris is if we could offer a premium WR or elite CB along with some extra picks or players.

Still, even adding Harris wouldn't fix our DL problems. The talent is a major problem, but so is the execution and utilization. We need to overhaul the way we run our line before its going to improve, not just trying to plug in more talented individuals.

[bendog]

I just wonder if we can even get a 3 for Jake at this pt. assuming the cap rules don't preclude a trade.

[bloodsunday]

I can't really blame Plummer supporters who think we could have made a playoff/superbowl run with Jake.
I am not a Plummer supporter by any means. But I do think he gave us the best chance of making the Playoffs. However, I am not disillusioned and I don't think we would win the Super Bowl with him. Making the playoffs does count for something. If nothing else its more revenue for the team. More importantly its a confidence boost and reason for optimism going into the off season. Imagine an entire off season of feeling the way we did after losing to KC -- where we knew Cutler was coming in. Only this time he gets an entire off season to prepare as the starter.

I am mostly pissed about how Shanny has handled all this. He let the those leaks out and forced things into this situation. Why the hell does he continually pass on chances to develop QBs? We didn't draft Romo. We didn't draft LeFlours. Yet we spent two years on BVP?! Shanny let it get to a point where our only viable alternative for a playoff contending team was a rookie QB. It's boom or bust with him. Either he is totally in love with his guy that is starting and unwilling to bring along a young guy on the side, or he is totally desperate and ready to move on.

Here's a thought. Do like most NFL teams -- keep 3 QBs. Make one of them a young guy that you can develop into a viable alternative in case your starter isn't getting it done. Don't wait until you know for sure he isn't getting it done. Find yourself a normal NFL kicker that is capable of both kicking off and kicking field goals.

I'd say he blew another QB situation.

[bendog]

I am not a Plummer supporter by any means. But I do think he gave us the best chance of making the Playoffs. However, I am not disillusioned and I don't think we would win the Super Bowl with him. Making the playoffs does count for something. If nothing else its more revenue for the team. More importantly its a confidence boost and reason for optimism going into the off season. Imagine an entire off season of feeling the way we did after losing to KC -- where we knew Cutler was coming in. Only this time he gets an entire off season to prepare as the starter.

I am mostly pissed about how Shanny has handled all this. He let the those leaks out and forced things into this situation. Why the hell does he continually pass on chances to develop QBs? We didn't draft Romo. We didn't draft LeFlours. Yet we spent two years on BVP?! Shanny let it get to a point where our only viable alternative for a playoff contending team was a rookie QB.

I'd say he blew another QB situation.

Aren't you the poster who wanted shanny to show more emotion, too?

[bloodsunday]

Aren't you the poster who wanted shanny to show more emotion, too?

yeah a little fire now and then wouldn't hurt.

Here's a Shanny press conference:

Reporter: "So Mike how disappointed are you in the loss?"

Mike: "Well anytime you have a chance to win a game and you don't, it's obviously disappointing. But what you have to do is ask yourself what you can do to be a better team."

Report: "Mike are you excited about the chance to go out next week and try to avenge this disappointing losse?"

Mike: "Any time you've got 11 guys playing together you have a chance to do something special. We'll go get prepared and play hard on Sunday."

What's your point?

[Dudeskey]

I just wonder if we can even get a 3 for Jake at this pt. assuming the cap rules don't preclude a trade.

I dunno if anyone would touch him w/ that current contract. He'll field plenty of offers as a FA though.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Cutler is raw and young. Its way too soon to draw any conclusions about him. He might be a bust -- like 50% (or more) of QBs with the expectations about him. Or it might take him 3 or 4 years to develop. I find it comical that people want to look at the exceptions (Marino and Big Ben) and project that kind of success on a rookie.

Harris is a great player. He'd be a conerstone of any franchise's defense.


We know Cutler's potential. If you research my opinion of Cutler, you will find it to be higher than the average Bronco fan. I think that he has a rare combination of skills, athleticism, and smarts.

Harris is a player that I have seen for his collegiate and pro career. He is a force in both pass and run defense. He's seen double teams over his entire career and has still produced at a level that put him at the top of the players at his position. He anchored dominant defenses at Oklahoma, and he has seemingly become even better in the pros.

I'm sure that if you proposed this trade to a bears fan that they would laugh in your face. Harris is a star with an unlimited future who after only two seasons has already proven to be the anchor of a dominant NFL defense, and Cutler is an unproven rookie QB. There is such a thing as a "franchise" DL player and if there ever was one, Harris fits the mold.

DJ seems to be losing steam from the hype he came with.

Jones is okay. I think Jones could add some dimentions like pass catching and pass blocking to our offense. I would not be overly concerned about his YPC as they would likely increase in our system -- just like about every back we get. His toughness would be welcomed. BUT, I wouldn't find him a dominant player by any means.

Thomas Jones was basically the guy I put in there to even the deal out. Chicago wouldnt think about Harris for Cutler alone. DJ has a little more value than Jones. Denver needs an everydown back and Jones would help in that area.

Remember, the trade idea was essentially to augment the roster that we have now to get over the hump. I think that Harris alone gets us over the hump.

Having said all that I don't think the deal makes sense. Shanahan has clearly hitched his wagon to Cutler and I think his realtionship with Jake is beyond repair. Thus, you are talking about finding another QB to fill the hole as Hercules suggests.

Sure. There is no possibility of this trade happening from either side of the deal. Chicago wouldnt trade the most valuable player on their defense (who happens to play one of the most difficult positions on the defense to fill) for potential. Denver is now committed to Cutler for a few years.

If I had anything to do again, it would probably be this year's draft. I love Cutler, but I am a little unsure of how long this development period is gonna take. I think Denver might have been better served finding a player that contribute now -- we were in the AFCC game last year. There are players that could have been developed at QB without all the acclaim and pressure that a 1st round QB has put on this franchise.

Good post. The Broncos were close. Really close. It is apparent now that we have taken a step backward. When the team takes that step forward is anybody's guess, and it is that uncertainty that causes me concern. This team could have beaten the Colts and the Chargers if it had a means of controlling the LOS while on defense. All of the other players were in place. We just needed one guy. On the other hand, the offense is full of young players with little experience at the skill positions, and is transitioning away from Rod Smith and Tom Nalen who were two of the best players in the history of the franchise. The offense is probably going to struggle for awhile, and expecting Jay Cutler to step in and open up the field is expecting too much. He isnt ready to do that. If and when he will be is anyone's guess.

This could end up being a monumental mistake for Shanahan. If the Broncos tailspin and end up at the bottom of the AFC West over the next couple of years, people will begin calling for his head. Denver fans cannibalize their young like no other fans in the league. Shanahan could also come out of this smelling like a rose if Cutler pans out and the team continues to compete. Whether or not the team continues to compete and Cutler ends up panning out are not mutually inclusive events.

[bloodsunday]

We know Cutler's potential. If you research my opinion of Cutler, you will find it to be higher than the average Bronco fan. I think that he has a rare combination of skills, athleticism, and smarts.
Yeah I found your praise of his potential to be off the charts. But I know this. Dave Logan suggested, and I agree, that as long as we live we will likely never see a QB in Orange and Blue as good as Elway. And even he took multiple years to develop into the guy we expect Cutler to be now. I think I am making your point but want to point that out to people that don't seem to get it.

Thomas Jones was basically the guy I put in there to even the deal out. Chicago wouldn't think about Harris for Cutler alone. DJ has a little more value than Jones. Denver needs an every down back and Jones would help in that area.
It sounds like we have a similar opinion of Jones. He could do the job, but he's not an LJ or an LT. Part of our problem with our current backs is that none of them are a complete back. If we could combine Tatum's skills with Mike Bell's toughness, we'd be close.

Remember, the trade idea was essentially to augment the roster that we have now to get over the hump. I think that Harris alone gets us over the hump.
On defense, yes. On offense, who knows. Something has gone terribly wrong this year. Is it the pressure we induced on ourselves by drafting Cutler? Is it Kubiak's departure? I don't know. I am not sure this offense could have done it with the step backward they took. The offense last year plus Thomas Jones, then I would certainly agree.

Good post. The Broncos were close. Really close. It is apparent now that we have taken a step backward. When the team takes that step forward is anybody's guess, and it is that uncertainty that causes me concern.
Same here. And a collapse for the ages -- 7 - 2 to out of the playoffs -- would only make that more cloudy. Guys like Lynch and Smith might just hang em' up. Shanahan might go on a tirade and fire the whole staff.

This team could have beaten the Colts and the Chargers if it had a means of controlling the LOS while on defense. All of the other players were in place. We just needed one guy. On the other hand, the offense is full of young players with little experience at the skill positions, and is transitioning away from Rod Smith and Tom Nalen who were two of the best players in the history of the franchise. The offense is probably going to struggle for awhile, and expecting Jay Cutler to step in and open up the field is expecting too much. He isnt ready to do that. If and when he will be is anyone's guess.
I agree with the idea about the defense being close. But this offense has disappointed from day 1. It sure seems we are further away than we were with Jake. But it has only been one game.

This could end up being a monumental mistake for Shanahan. If the Broncos tailspin and end up at the bottom of the AFC West over the next couple of years, people will begin calling for his head. Denver fans cannibalize their young like no other fans in the league.
I really don't see that happening. We could end up with the same team we have had the last 8 years -- hot starts and fading into the finish line. Coughing up division titles left and right, only to hear everyone utter "Super Bowl or bust". In some ways I almost wonder if that would be more torture than spinning out of control.

You know what I appreciate most about a sports team and season? The journey. Of course its nice to have it end with a championship. But its much worse to be sitting in Nov or early Dec and know that you have nothing to player for. I loved watching Elway carry Broncos teams to the Super Bowl on his back, even though they lost. I was never one of those fans that actually hoped we wouldn't make it back. I loved the toughness and determination that those teams played with. It makes me sick when I hear people say now that the only thing that matters is titles. Sure they matter, but only 1 team in 32 gets one. If you don't have some other way to measure yourself then you are going to be disappointed a lot. Plus, its a built in excuse to fail. "Well we obviously can't win the Super Bowl this year, so let's just pack it in". That's a losers mentality and it breads losers. You play to win the game. You go out and compete with everything you got on every down. If you don't have that in you, go play for Arizona.

It is just absolutely brutal right now to watch this team. They are in every damn game they play. They know the stakes. And yet they just squander game after game. Even the St. Louis game was the same. They tried to give away the Pittsburgh game, but they beat us to it.

[bendog]

I don't really agree, llama, though I see your logic.

We need a rb, and we need a dlineman who commands a double team. Teams can easly pass block us with five guys. Keep a back in, and the qb could slip, get back up, and still find an open receiver.

Smith and Nalen. Great guys, marginal HOF. But with Javon and Marshall are we any worse than with Rod and Lelie last year? Schaeffer looks good. Hamilton's no step back from Nails, and we get the hoss in at LG. Lepsis is a concern.

Replacing Wilson and Lynch will be huge. Both may play next year, but it's getting late in their careers.

As for Cutlett, barring injury, he should be on an upswing this time next year. JMO

[socalorado]

I have a trade that just might accomodate the lynch/defensive line problems. No RBs in the trade though. Would you like to see it?

[Kaylore]

I have a trade that just might accomodate the lynch/defensive line problems. No RBs in the trade though. Would you like to see it?

What do you mean the "Lynch" problems? Lynch hasn't been a problem since he's been here.

[socalorado]

I dont mean thats he is a problem in the way he plays for us, I think he is great, but he is getting up there in age and i dont think Ferguson is the answer with him. Also our DL is a complete mess. We need some guys that can crash the pocket and make life hell for opposing QBs.
So how about Denver trade
Darrent Williams CB (Foxworth is good enough to take over)
D.J. Williams LB ( Plug in Webster or get someone draft/ FA)
to Buffalo for
Larry Tripplet DL
Ko simpson S ( after Donte Whitner,this move was overkill, Ko seems to play everywhere for them when I watch there games.)
Maybe Buffalo even throws in a 5th in next years draft

[azbroncfan]

Yep, that year your top three for the #17 overall pick was comprised of
1. Tommie Harris
2. Steven Jackson
3. DJ

Yep slap worst thread of the year, not only a poor trade for Denver, why would chicago trade for a LB that isn't better than any of their starters. Too bad slap didn't send shanny his draft card so we could of got Steven Jackson instead of DJ.

[OrangeShadow]

For what its worth tommie harris might miss the rest of the season with a bad hamstring injury