In U.S., fear and distrust of Muslims runs deep

[alkemical]

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=inDepthNews&storyID=2006-12-01T142541Z_01_N30158201_RTRUKOC_0_US-USA-MUSLIMS-FEAR.xml&WTmodLoc=Home-C5-inDepthNews-2&rpc=92


In U.S., fear and distrust of Muslims runs deep

By Bernd Debusmann, Special Correspondent

WASHINGTON (Reuters)- When radio host Jerry Klein suggested that all Muslims in the United States should be identified with a crescent-shape tattoo or a distinctive arm band, the phone lines jammed instantly.

The first caller to the station in Washington said that Klein must be "off his rocker." The second congratulated him and added: "Not only do you tattoo them in the middle of their forehead but you ship them out of this country ... they are here to kill us."

Another said that tattoos, armbands and other identifying markers such as crescent marks on driver's licenses, passports and birth certificates did not go far enough. "What good is identifying them?" he asked. "You have to set up encampments like during World War Two with the Japanese and Germans."

At the end of the one-hour show, rich with arguments on why visual identification of "the threat in our midst" would alleviate the public's fears, Klein revealed that he had staged a hoax. It drew out reactions that are not uncommon in post-9/11 America.

"I can't believe any of you are sick enough to have agreed for one second with anything I said," he told his audience on the AM station 630 WMAL (http://www.wmal.com/), which covers Washington, Northern Virginia and Maryland

"For me to suggest to tattoo marks on people's bodies, have them wear armbands, put a crescent moon on their driver's license on their passport or birth certificate is disgusting. It's beyond disgusting.

"Because basically what you just did was show me how the German people allowed what happened to the Jews to happen ... We need to separate them, we need to tattoo their arms, we need to make them wear the yellow Star of David, we need to put them in concentration camps, we basically just need to kill them all because they are dangerous."

The show aired on November 26, the Sunday after the Thanksgiving holiday, and Klein said in an interview afterwards he had been surprised by the response. Continued...

[bendog]

For me it was all the good looking white hippy chicks wanting to do it with Muhammad Ali rather than me.

[-Slap-]

For me it was Karim Abdul-Jabbar.

http://moneycard.com/simages/15183.jpg

What the **** was that all about?

[baja]

That radio shows that the only thing that changes is fashion and technology

[spdirty]

Mahmoud Abdul Rauf. There was a weird sum bitch. What an embarrassment he turned out to be. Great free throw shooter though.

[Atlas]

What we experience here is nothing like what they are experiencing in Europe. Muslims that are over here are pretty well off an dthey love the American way of life. In Europe it's a different story. Muslims are the poor of the poor and they are descriminated against dailey. Thus there is a lot of tension over there.

There is a war coming. With in 10 years there are going to be huge ramifications for what is going on now.

[yavoon]

What we experience here is nothing like what they are experiencing in Europe. Muslims that are over here are pretty well off an dthey love the American way of life. In Europe it's a different story. Muslims are the poor of the poor and they are descriminated against dailey. Thus there is a lot of tension over there.

There is a war coming. With in 10 years there are going to be huge ramifications for what is going on now.

interesting supposition:

Omar M. Ahmad founder of CAIR said:
"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" he said. "The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America , and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth,"

[alkemical]

all religions are the only accepted religion. The goal is to get it to a level of personal discord that doesn't involve death.

[yavoon]

all religions are the only accepted religion. The goal is to get it to a level of personal discord that doesn't involve death.

I'm sorry but there is no level of personal discord that involves the koran as the only authority in america to me that doesn't involve death.

and on a more practical level ur also wrong. christianity has the theory of give unto caesar, I've never even heard of buddhists doing what the more aggressive religions have done. but ppl need to get themselves some literacy, NOT ALL RELIGIONS SAME. they are all written down for u, so this shouldn't be that hard.

[alkemical]

I'm sorry but there is no level of personal discord that involves the koran as the only authority in america to me that doesn't involve death.

and on a more practical level ur also wrong. christianity has the theory of give unto caesar, I've never even heard of buddhists doing what the more aggressive religions have done. but ppl need to get themselves some literacy, NOT ALL RELIGIONS SAME. they are all written down for u, so this shouldn't be that hard.


Read what i said. I said the goal was to move the difference of ideologies from a manner of death - to a war of words. At no point did i say that fundamentalists of any religion were absolved of "death to the unbelievers".

PS - you should really read up on the violent battles between the buddists and hindu extremists. Not to mention, i probably know more about religion(s) than you ever would, considering your reading comprehension is suspect.

But oh wait, that's right you are nothing but a troll. I wonder why i took you off my ignore list....

[yavoon]

Read what i said. I said the goal was to move the difference of ideologies from a manner of death - to a war of words. At no point did i say that fundamentalists of any religion were absolved of "death to the unbelievers".

PS - you should really read up on the violent battles between the buddists and hindu extremists. Not to mention, i probably know more about religion(s) than you ever would, considering your reading comprehension is suspect.

But oh wait, that's right you are nothing but a troll. I wonder why i took you off my ignore list....

maybe u should read about the differences of RELIGIONS. like I said, they are written down for ur ignorant relativist ass. it shouldn't be too difficult.

but thats probably too much, I mean ur politics has already told u the answer to the question, so why bother actually learning it?

[bendog]

Is it just me or does anyone else delight in the irony of yavoon lecturing on Islam?

[yavoon]

Is it just me or does anyone else delight in the irony of yavoon lecturing on Islam?

I know more about islam than probably anyone on this board. though one can never be sure, and I certainly dont care if I do or dont.

but hey, I know where religion is concerned no1 wants knowledge, ur various politics have already determined ur view.

[bendog]

I know more about islam than probably anyone on this board. though one can never be sure, and I certainly dont care if I do or dont.

do you write your own material, or is Bob Newhart involved?

[yavoon]

I know more about islam than probably anyone on this board. though one can never be sure, and I certainly dont care if I do or dont.

do you write your own material, or is Bob Newhart involved?

is this all ur gna do here? its not very interesting.

[alkemical]

maybe u should read about the differences of RELIGIONS. like I said, they are written down for ur ignorant relativist ass. it shouldn't be too difficult.

but thats probably too much, I mean ur politics has already told u the answer to the question, so why bother actually learning it?



Well it's obvious you've never bothered to learn the differences at all. Which is why you can only try to use this 'relativist' argument on everyone. It doesn't work on me. Sorry chump. I spent numerous years studying with hindu's, buddists, christians, jews and a few practicing muslims, pagans, magicians, and athesists.

I don't have any politics that have told me any answers to any questions. I only have questions to answer questions.

[alkemical]

Is it just me or does anyone else delight in the irony of yavoon lecturing on Islam?



Hehe, you know this thread was bait didn't ya? ;)

[alkemical]

I know more about islam than probably anyone on this board. though one can never be sure, and I certainly dont care if I do or dont.

but hey, I know where religion is concerned no1 wants knowledge, ur various politics have already determined ur view.



Have you practiced islam?

[bendog]

Hehe, you know this thread was bait didn't ya? ;)

yavoon's a treat. I've never been sure whether he's a personna or whether he does indeed oversimply everything into meaninglessness. I was gonna say, well put up what you think is so bad ... which is what the guy who taught the class I took would do with idiots like this ... but why bother.

[yavoon]

Well it's obvious you've never bothered to learn the differences at all. Which is why you can only try to use this 'relativist' argument on everyone. It doesn't work on me. Sorry chump. I spent numerous years studying with hindu's, buddists, christians, jews and a few practicing muslims, pagans, magicians, and athesists.

I don't have any politics that have told me any answers to any questions. I only have questions to answer questions.

"all religions are the only accepted religion."

lets put this little sentence of ugly ignorant relativism to the test shall we?

"This is hard for many people to accept because it is so simple and natural; it seems unbelievable that salvation is offered freely to anyone even non-believers because our traditional religions teach that we need to be part of the “right” religious sect or believe in the “right” savior or prophet. Also, they teach that we need to follow the “right” ritual and rules to be worthy of salvation from the all-seeing wrathful deity. On the contrary, in Shin, we believe and experience the all-inclusive and embracing Great Compassion."

"Hindus believe in the sacredness of other religions and that any expression of the divine is an expression of the Absolute, the universal spirit (Brahman), and so non-Hindus can achieve Moksha."

uh oh, not doing that great so far!

even the catholic church has become inclusionary w/ respect to non-believers. though they were very exclusionary for a long time.

[alkemical]

yavoon's a treat. I've never been sure whether he's a personna or whether he does indeed oversimply everything into meaninglessness. I was gonna say, well put up what you think is so bad ... which is what the guy who taught the class I took would do with idiots like this ... but why bother.



I know whatchya mean.

Hey i made this awesome glaze type for salmon. Honey, Jack Daniels, some garlic, a pinch of salt, a dash of vinegar mix to taste - add what flavors you like or are serving with - poof - nice tasty dish.

[alkemical]

"all religions are the only accepted religion."

lets put this little sentence of ugly ignorant relativism to the test shall we?

"This is hard for many people to accept because it is so simple and natural; it seems unbelievable that salvation is offered freely to anyone even non-believers because our traditional religions teach that we need to be part of the “right” religious sect or believe in the “right” savior or prophet. Also, they teach that we need to follow the “right” ritual and rules to be worthy of salvation from the all-seeing wrathful deity. On the contrary, in Shin, we believe and experience the all-inclusive and embracing Great Compassion."

"Hindus believe in the sacredness of other religions and that any expression of the divine is an expression of the Absolute, the universal spirit (Brahman), and so non-Hindus can achieve Moksha."

uh oh, not doing that great so far!

even the catholic church has become inclusionary w/ respect to non-believers. though they were very exclusionary for a long time.

True or false:

In everyone's religion, the other guy goes to hell if they aren't part of the club.

You want to deal in basic concepts there ya go. Save your term paper bull**** for someone that will give ya a gold star.

[bendog]

traditional christianity (RCC and Anglicans - though we episkypalians tend to waffle) are not inclusive. We believe that the only way to God is via Jesus Christ. No inclusion, no exceptions. We do hold out he possibility that Jesus Christ will give non-believers faith just in the bare nick of time .... right before the last heartbeat or brain synapse firing.

[bendog]

You'll love this. Friday night I'm frying up sausage for 4 dozen sausage biscuits, and then getting up Sat morning around 3 to bake 4 dozen biscuits, and taking them up to a horse show Sat morning before 8am. Should be in the mid 20s, with a nice northwest wind.

I'm spending Sat and Sun up there shoveling horse po-po and mucking out stalls ...

I doubt I'll cook much this weekend, as I should be pretty stove up from the wind and cold. I'm hoping to be able to do my hour and fifteen mins on the indoor bike trainer on Sun, but prolly not. I got some cajun chicken in the fridge. Maybe I'll make a canned tomatoe and meat sauce for pasta.

Dinner tonight at church is baked chix, lima beans, corn, salad and rolls ... for six bucks. Fifteen per family.

I'm making my smoked salmon faux pate for a party on Wed. I get 4 oz fresh caught frozen fillets for a buck a piece. Smoke them in my stove top smoker, and then mash them up with cream cheese and green onions.

[yavoon]

yavoon's a treat. I've never been sure whether he's a personna or whether he does indeed oversimply everything into meaninglessness. I was gonna say, well put up what you think is so bad ... which is what the guy who taught the class I took would do with idiots like this ... but why bother.

what I think is so bad about what? islam?

mohammed sold slaves, had slaves, beheaded entire tribes of men, slept w/ 9 nine year olds, raided trade caravans, murdered poets for lampooning him, sanctioned hatred, setup a pseudo slave state called dhimmitude, destroyed other religious symbols(now famous w/ all the ex jewish/christian places), led over 2 dozen military expeditions.

Koran 2:216
"Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, you knew not."

Koran 2:217
"They question you (O Mohammed) with regard to warfare in the sacred month. Say: Warfare therein is a great transgression but to turn men from the way of Allah and to disbelive in Him and the inviolable place of worship and to expel its people thence is a greater transgression, for persecution is worse than killing"

Koran 8:65
"O Prophet exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you 20 steadfast,they will overcome 200 and if there be of you a 100, they shall overcome a 1000, because the disbelievers are a folk without intelligence"

Koran 8:67-68
"It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. You desire the lure of this world and Allah desires for you the hereafter and Allah is Mighty, Wise.. Now enjoy what you have won as lawful and good and keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful."

(Koran 8:55-57)
"Lo, the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the ungrateful who will not believe."

"Those of them with whom you made a treaty and then at every opportunity they break their treaty and they keep not duty to Allah, If you come on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, so that they may remember."

2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

4:74 Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

5:116 And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah ? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden ?

ok that last one isnt violent, its just funny.

[yavoon]

True or false:

In everyone's religion, the other guy goes to hell if they aren't part of the club.

You want to deal in basic concepts there ya go. Save your term paper bull**** for someone that will give ya a gold star.

false. as I plainly posted for u. even the catholic church now(though certainly historically they didnt) believe in inclusionary religious practices.

[bendog]

ah no, you'll need to correct yourself on "inclusiveness" of the RCC before I'll play that game. In fact your ignorant arrogance just landed your lazy ass on my ignore list.

Don't have a nice day.

[bendog]

false. as I plainly posted for u. even the catholic church now(though certainly historically they didnt) believe in inclusionary religious practices.

Wait, I'll give you one chance. back it up. I'm off to run.

[yavoon]

ah no, you'll need to correct yourself on "inclusiveness" of the RCC before I'll play that game. In fact your ignorant arrogance just landed your lazy ass on my ignore list.

Don't have a nice day.

"There has been considerable movement by the Roman Catholic Church concerning the salvation status of non-Catholics. The church has gradually changed from an exclusivist to an inclusivist position, thus becoming more accepting of the validity of other Christian denominations."

"Numerous statements since the 1960's seem to have stated clearly that the Church has switches to an inclusivist position. They now believe that non-Catholics can have indirect access to salvation, but that their faith may well place serious roadblocks on the path to salvation."

I have no love for the catholic church.

[alkemical]

You'll love this. Friday night I'm frying up sausage for 4 dozen sausage biscuits, and then getting up Sat morning around 3 to bake 4 dozen biscuits, and taking them up to a horse show Sat morning before 8am. Should be in the mid 20s, with a nice northwest wind.

I'm spending Sat and Sun up there shoveling horse po-po and mucking out stalls ...

I doubt I'll cook much this weekend, as I should be pretty stove up from the wind and cold. I'm hoping to be able to do my hour and fifteen mins on the indoor bike trainer on Sun, but prolly not. I got some cajun chicken in the fridge. Maybe I'll make a canned tomatoe and meat sauce for pasta.

Dinner tonight at church is baked chix, lima beans, corn, salad and rolls ... for six bucks. Fifteen per family.

I'm making my smoked salmon faux pate for a party on Wed. I get 4 oz fresh caught frozen fillets for a buck a piece. Smoke them in my stove top smoker, and then mash them up with cream cheese and green onions.



Damn that sounds pretty good.

I am working on making a la chilada or an enchisagne - but i haven't gotten the mix quite right yet.

[alkemical]

false. as I plainly posted for u. even the catholic church now(though certainly historically they didnt) believe in inclusionary religious practices.

yet all 'christians' believe the way to heaven is through christ. Wow i guess i missed that part in bible school....

So if you want to play the 'secular' game - then you should know that not all muslims practice death to infidels - your politicizing a religion for your own hatred. Plain and simple. Fanaticism will always exist in the human condition.

you've never answered my question either on if you practiced the muslim faith or if you just used argument from authority.....

[yavoon]

yet all 'christians' believe the way to heaven is through christ. Wow i guess i missed that part in bible school....

So if you want to play the 'secular' game - then you should know that not all muslims practice death to infidels - your politicizing a religion for your own hatred. Plain and simple. Fanaticism will always exist in the human condition.

hey the catholic church use to not let other denominations into heaven, so its a step:). and u dont need to outright kill infidels.

9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

as u can plainly see, if u bring them low(into dhimmitude) u no longer need to kill them.

[alkemical]

hey the catholic church use to not let other denominations into heaven, so its a step:). and u dont need to outright kill infidels.

9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

as u can plainly see, if u bring them low(into dhimmitude) u no longer need to kill them.

Really - you want me to find all the old testament **** about killing the unbelievers?

Do/did you ever practice the muslim faith or are you basing all your information from source material applied from others?

[yavoon]

Really - you want me to find all the old testament **** about killing the unbelievers?

Do/did you ever practice the muslim faith or are you basing all your information from source material applied from others?

source material? u mean like THE KORAN(we could go into more hadith and sharia too!)? look I'm not gna go into christian apologetics too heavily, because I probably wouldn't do it justice. but to the best of my knowledge the OT is overruled by jesus in the NT. also to be noted that a lot of the nasty in the OT are things u SHOULDN'T do, or are merely stories. it might also be noted that ppl practice a liberal interpretation of the bible because it is written by humans 'inspired by god' or what have u, and is therefore possible to err.

the koran does not operate like that. the koran is the literal word of god as given by the angel gabriel to the holy prophet mohammed. there is an EXACT copy of the koran in arabic in heaven. and if u'll notice the koran is generally more straightforward. as u can see a lot of mohammed's revelations were postmortem justifications or rallying cries to whatever mohammed did next.

[yavoon]

and on the charge that extremists are 'perverting islam' lets see if thats valid.

Battle of Qadisiyya in the year 636(4 years after mohammed died), when the commander of the Muslim forces, Khalid ibn Al-Walid, sent an emissary with a message from Caliph Abu Bakr to the Persian commander, Khosru. The message stated: "You [Khosru and his people] should convert to Islam, and then you will be safe, for if you don't, you should know that I have come to you with an army of men that love death, as you love life."

Hezbollah's Secretary General Hassan Nasrallah revealed in an interview after the recent prisoner swap between Israel and his group: "We have discovered how to hit the Jews where they are the most vulnerable. The Jews love life, so that is what we shall take away from them. We are going to win, because they love life and we love death."

stop perverting the religion hassan!

[alkemical]

source material? u mean like THE KORAN(we could go into more hadith and sharia too!)? look I'm not gna go into christian apologetics too heavily, because I probably wouldn't do it justice. but to the best of my knowledge the OT is overruled by jesus in the NT. also to be noted that a lot of the nasty in the OT are things u SHOULDN'T do, or are merely stories. it might also be noted that ppl practice a liberal interpretation of the bible because it is written by humans 'inspired by god' or what have u, and is therefore possible to err.

the koran does not operate like that. the koran is the literal word of god as given by the angel gabriel to the holy prophet mohammed. there is an EXACT copy of the koran in arabic in heaven. and if u'll notice the koran is generally more straightforward. as u can see a lot of mohammed's revelations were postmortem justifications or rallying cries to whatever mohammed did next.



Depends on which 'flavour' of christinaity you want to go into. Some sects believe that the holy ghost wrote it, there fore it is infallable. Really not so differerent than the QRN.

Which is why i found my own path - but study all others - since they all have truth of the divine in it.

[bendog]

nah, nah. first you back up your misperception that traditional christianity is inclusive.

[yavoon]

nah, nah. first you back up your misperception that traditional christianity is inclusive.

I never said that, i said the catholic church has recently become inclusive.

[yavoon]

Depends on which 'flavour' of christinaity you want to go into. Some sects believe that the holy ghost wrote it, there fore it is infallable. Really not so differerent than the QRN.

Which is why i found my own path - but study all others - since they all have truth of the divine in it.

that flavor is closer to the koran. and if sex w/ 9 year olds and selling women into slavery after beheading the men has truth of the divine, then u keep it.

[alkemical]

that flavor is closer to the koran. and if sex w/ 9 year olds and selling women into slavery after beheading the men has truth of the divine, then u keep it.



I can say the same thing about [insert fanatical belief/believers here].

Do you practice Islam? Have you practiced Islam?

[yavoon]

I can say the same thing about [insert fanatical belief/believers here].

Do you practice Islam? Have you practiced Islam?

mohammed was fanatical? and no I dont practice islam.

[-Slap-]

I know whatchya mean.

Hey i made this awesome glaze type for salmon. Honey, Jack Daniels, some garlic, a pinch of salt, a dash of vinegar mix to taste - add what flavors you like or are serving with - poof - nice tasty dish.

The foodjack hits the WRP forum.

:~ohyah!:

[alkemical]

mohammed was fanatical? and no I dont practice islam.



A) Why did you project mohommad into my open example?

B) If you haven't spent any time practicing or have practiced, it's going to be hard to proclaim yourself an expert beyond any means of information from authority, then you'd have to suspect that most of your authority will be biased, therefore your whole presentation unto the muslim faith is comprimised. Not to mention you sound a little waspy.

[bendog]

I never said that, i said the catholic church has recently become inclusive.

back it up, and u (see I can spell like and idgit too) Kant, cause its bull****

[bendog]

ya, I'd make the glaze but .... Jack Daniels .... I love that stuff.

[alkemical]

ya, I'd make the glaze but .... Jack Daniels .... I love that stuff.

Oh me too bendog.

One day i will have to make my way to your neck of the woods.

I enjoy a good whiskey sour, or on the rocks. I love cooking with it too - You can omit the vinegar if you don't want make it that strong. I always mix spices according to the side dishes to either compliment or contrast (in a good way).

I don't have recipies i only know how to cook.

[yavoon]

A) Why did you project mohommad into my open example?

B) If you haven't spent any time practicing or have practiced, it's going to be hard to proclaim yourself an expert beyond any means of information from authority, then you'd have to suspect that most of your authority will be biased, therefore your whole presentation unto the muslim faith is comprimised. Not to mention you sound a little waspy.

so instead of addressing any fact I bring up, u make some absurdly general statement then make a handwaving argument.

well I guess I should be expecting such a weak and pathetic attempt from u.

if u'll notice I'm the only one posting any information at all in this thread. the rest are idiotic pseudo arguments clav. perhaps clav doesn't like reality, and thats why he snears so blithely at it.

[yavoon]

back it up, and u (see I can spell like and idgit too) Kant, cause its bull****

"The Catholic Church professes that it is the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church of Christ; this it does not and could not deny. But in its Constitution the Church now solemnly acknowledges that the Holy Ghost is truly active in the churches and communities separated from itself. To these other Christian Churches the Catholic Church is bound in many ways: through reverence for God's word in the Scriptures; through the fact of baptism; through other sacraments which they recognize."

5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church." 6

from vatican II.

[bendog]

The Holy Ghost has still given him grace. He didn't get there through Allah.

[yavoon]

The Holy Ghost has still given him grace. He didn't get there through Allah.

well I have no love for mo:).

but muslims consider the bible to be horribly corrupted and falsified. thus justifying all the contradictions between the bible and the koran. the koran is the word of god, the bible is just some poorly kept inacurate record of what the previous prophets of islam sorta said.

[bendog]

some muslims do.

However, some muslims also view islam as you view "inclusion." Which is inaccurate, btw, as Christians still believe one is only saved via the Holy Ghost giving grace. But, Islam is literally "submission" to God's will or his ordering of humans and the world. If one lives a life attempting to love others as he loves God, some muslims see that at submitting.

One interesting difference in Islam and Christianity is that Islam is open to more diverse interpretations. Sure we get wierd/different churchs sprouting up all the time, but generally speaking the old mainline churches (even baptists by and large who are really an American born and bred demonination) see things pretty uniformly. Of course, the baptists have sort of split over the more "conservative" or less inclusive readings, and the presbyterians have their problems there as well.

[yavoon]

some muslims do.

However, some muslims also view islam as you view "inclusion." Which is inaccurate, btw, as Christians still believe one is only saved via the Holy Ghost giving grace. But, Islam is literally "submission" to God's will or his ordering of humans and the world. If one lives a life attempting to love others as he loves God, some muslims see that at submitting.

One interesting difference in Islam and Christianity is that Islam is open to more diverse interpretations. Sure we get wierd/different churchs sprouting up all the time, but generally speaking the old mainline churches (even baptists by and large who are really an American born and bred demonination) see things pretty uniformly. Of course, the baptists have sort of split over the more "conservative" or less inclusive readings, and the presbyterians have their problems there as well.

I don't know what u mean by as I view 'inclusion' I was merely parroting the catholic church.

and while I encourage all liberal interpretations of religion, regardless of how blasphemous they are. it is pretty well impossible to read the koran, accept it as truth and believe the bible isn't a load of hooey.

in the koran chrisitians worship mary as god.

stories from the gospel of thomas are included in the koran

in the koran ezra is the son of god

abram was named abraham when he was young(that'd be before god changed it)

I forgot, jesus wasn't crucified.

as well as a dozenish other things.

[alkemical]

so instead of addressing any fact I bring up, u make some absurdly general statement then make a handwaving argument.

well I guess I should be expecting such a weak and pathetic attempt from u.

if u'll notice I'm the only one posting any information at all in this thread. the rest are idiotic pseudo arguments clav. perhaps clav doesn't like reality, and thats why he snears so blithely at it.



The fact is you didn't make any facts. You never addressed anything i've really stated and you then project the conversation into insults. I think that says alot more about you than anything else.

[bendog]

No, inclusion is the notion that one gets into heaven w/o the intercession of the holy ghost, or as paul put it God's gift of grace, fully given, not earned through justification. What the RCC says, as do the other mainline Christian denominations, save perhaps the baptists and some presbyterians, is taht the Holy Ghost will act to save a Jew, Muslim, etc if that person has lived a life of trying to love his neighbors.

Conversely, if a chuch is inclusive, belief in Allah, or whomever, is enough. That's not what the RCC believes.

In fact, the head of the episcopal church is being criticized for her response to a question "is belief in Jesus Christ necessary for salvation," to which she responded, "that puts God in an awfully small box." The criticism is that she's embraced inclusion, which if one reads her statements clearly, she didn't literally do.

[yavoon]

The fact is you didn't make any facts. You never addressed anything i've really stated and you then project the conversation into insults. I think that says alot more about you than anything else.

mohammed sold slaves, had slaves, beheaded entire tribes of men, slept w/ 9 nine year olds, raided trade caravans, murdered poets for lampooning him, sanctioned hatred, setup a pseudo slave state called dhimmitude, destroyed other religious symbols(now famous w/ all the ex jewish/christian places), led over 2 dozen military expeditions.

Koran 2:216
"Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, you knew not."

Koran 2:217
"They question you (O Mohammed) with regard to warfare in the sacred month. Say: Warfare therein is a great transgression but to turn men from the way of Allah and to disbelive in Him and the inviolable place of worship and to expel its people thence is a greater transgression, for persecution is worse than killing"

Koran 8:65
"O Prophet exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you 20 steadfast,they will overcome 200 and if there be of you a 100, they shall overcome a 1000, because the disbelievers are a folk without intelligence"

Koran 8:67-68
"It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. You desire the lure of this world and Allah desires for you the hereafter and Allah is Mighty, Wise.. Now enjoy what you have won as lawful and good and keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful."

(Koran 8:55-57)
"Lo, the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the ungrateful who will not believe."

"Those of them with whom you made a treaty and then at every opportunity they break their treaty and they keep not duty to Allah, If you come on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, so that they may remember."

2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

4:74 Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

5:116 And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah ? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden ?

"There has been considerable movement by the Roman Catholic Church concerning the salvation status of non-Catholics. The church has gradually changed from an exclusivist to an inclusivist position, thus becoming more accepting of the validity of other Christian denominations."

"Numerous statements since the 1960's seem to have stated clearly that the Church has switches to an inclusivist position. They now believe that non-Catholics can have indirect access to salvation, but that their faith may well place serious roadblocks on the path to salvation."


hey the catholic church use to not let other denominations into heaven, so its a step. and u dont need to outright kill infidels.

9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

as u can plainly see, if u bring them low(into dhimmitude) u no longer need to kill them.

Battle of Qadisiyya in the year 636(4 years after mohammed died), when the commander of the Muslim forces, Khalid ibn Al-Walid, sent an emissary with a message from Caliph Abu Bakr to the Persian commander, Khosru. The message stated: "You [Khosru and his people] should convert to Islam, and then you will be safe, for if you don't, you should know that I have come to you with an army of men that love death, as you love life."

Hezbollah's Secretary General Hassan Nasrallah revealed in an interview after the recent prisoner swap between Israel and his group: "We have discovered how to hit the Jews where they are the most vulnerable. The Jews love life, so that is what we shall take away from them. We are going to win, because they love life and we love death."

that flavor is closer to the koran. and if sex w/ 9 year olds and selling women into slavery after beheading the men has truth of the divine, then u keep it.

get some comprehension skills.

[yavoon]

No, inclusion is the notion that one gets into heaven w/o the intercession of the holy ghost, or as paul put it God's gift of grace, fully given, not earned through justification. What the RCC says, as do the other mainline Christian denominations, save perhaps the baptists and some presbyterians, is taht the Holy Ghost will act to save a Jew, Muslim, etc if that person has lived a life of trying to love his neighbors.

Conversely, if a chuch is inclusive, belief in Allah, or whomever, is enough. That's not what the RCC believes.

In fact, the head of the episcopal church is being criticized for her response to a question "is belief in Jesus Christ necessary for salvation," to which she responded, "that puts God in an awfully small box." The criticism is that she's embraced inclusion, which if one reads her statements clearly, she didn't literally do.

umm inclusion is a more general word than that. the RCC use to exclude all non catholics from heaven, now they include the other denominations.

thats being more inclusionary. anyway I've posted several things to backup what I've said.

[bendog]

no you haven't posted ****. You've proven you're an idiot. A bigoted lazy arrogant one at that.

[bendog]

Seriously though, send me an PM as to where you church and have gotten you're "education." I want to put them on my idgits list.

[yavoon]

Seriously though, send me an PM as to where you church and have gotten you're "education." I want to put them on my idgits list.

I quoted the RCC from vatican II.

[yavoon]

no you haven't posted ****. You've proven you're an idiot. A bigoted lazy arrogant one at that.

lazy? I think I'm the only one doing anything in this thread. but u didnt like it the first time, here is round 2.

"The Catholic Church professes that it is the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church of Christ; this it does not and could not deny. But in its Constitution the Church now solemnly acknowledges that the Holy Ghost is truly active in the churches and communities separated from itself. To these other Christian Churches the Catholic Church is bound in many ways: through reverence for God's word in the Scriptures; through the fact of baptism; through other sacraments which they recognize."

5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church." 6


drop it like its hot:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994), deals with the relationship of the Roman Catholic Church to non-Catholics in Topics 839 to 845. 9 Some points are:
839: Followers of other religions are referred to as "Those who have not yet received the gospel..." The implication is that they will eventually become united with the Roman Catholic Church.
839 to 841: The Roman Catholic Church has a special relationship to Jews and Muslims because of the common reverence for the patriarch Abraham.
843: Other religions contain "goodness and truth" which are "a preparation for the Gospel."
845: God wishes to "reunite all his children," of all religions who are "scattered and led astray by sin...together into" the Catholic Church.

[alkemical]

get some comprehension skills.


yep you should too:

Bible Passages About Ritual Human Sacrifice





Jephthah Burns His Daughter



"At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."



"So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. "My daughter!" he cried out. "My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back." And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter." (Judges 11:29-40 NLT)





God Commands Burning Humans



[The Lord speaking] "The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel." (Joshua 7:15 NLT)





Josiah and Human Sacrifice



At the LORD's command, a man of God from Judah went to Bethel, and he arrived there just as Jeroboam was approaching the altar to offer a sacrifice. Then at the LORD's command, he shouted, "O altar, altar! This is what the LORD says: A child named Josiah will be born into the dynasty of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests from the pagan shrines who come here to burn incense, and human bones will be burned on you." (1 Kings 13:1-2 NLT)



He [Josiah] executed the priests of the pagan shrines on their own altars, and he burned human bones on the altars to desecrate them. Finally, he returned to Jerusalem. King Josiah then issued this order to all the people: "You must celebrate the Passover to the LORD your God, as it is written in the Book of the Covenant." There had not been a Passover celebration like that since the time when the judges ruled in Israel, throughout all the years of the kings of Israel and Judah. This Passover was celebrated to the LORD in Jerusalem during the eighteenth year of King Josiah's reign. Josiah also exterminated the mediums and psychics, the household gods, and every other kind of idol worship, both in Jerusalem and throughout the land of Judah. He did this in obedience to all the laws written in the scroll that Hilkiah the priest had found in the LORD's Temple. Never before had there been a king like Josiah, who turned to the LORD with all his heart and soul and strength, obeying all the laws of Moses. And there has never been a king like him since. (2 Kings 23:20-25 NLT)



Human Sacrifice



Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself. As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself. In the time of their visitation they shall shine, and shall dart about as sparks through stubble; (Wisdom 3:5-7 NAB The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible.)





Child Sacrifice



And this became a hidden trap for mankind, because men, in bondage to misfortune or to royal authority, bestowed on objects of stone or wood the name that ought not to be shared. Afterward it was not enough for them to err about the knowledge of God, but they live in great strife due to ignorance, and they call such great evils peace. For whether they kill children in their initiations, or celebrate secret mysteries, or hold frenzied revels with strange customs… (Wisdom 14:21-23 RSV) The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible. This passage condemns human sacrifice but acknowledges that it did happen by early God worshipers.





Humans are Fuel for Fire



As for you, son of man, prophesy: Thus says the Lord GOD against the Ammonites and their insults: A sword, a sword is drawn for slaughter, burnished to consume and to flash lightning, because you planned with false visions and lying divinations to lay it on the necks of depraved and wicked men whose day has come when their crimes are at an end. Return it to its sheath! In the place where you were created, in the land of your origin, I will judge you. I will pour out my indignation upon you, breathing my fiery wrath upon you, I will hand you over to ravaging men, artisans of destruction. You shall be fuel for the fire, your blood shall flow throughout the land. You shall not be remembered, for I, the LORD, have spoken. (Ezekiel 21:33-37 NAB)





Burn Nonbelievers



"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)



1) Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)



So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.



The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."



Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.



Obviously these women were repeatedly raped. These sick bastards killed and raped an entire town and then wanted more virgins, so they hid beside the road to kidnap and rape some more. How can anyone see this as anything but evil?



2) Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)



They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.



Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.



Clearly Moses and God approves of rape of virgins.



3) More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)



As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.



What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?



4) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)



If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.



What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.



5) Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)



If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.



It is clear that God doesn't give a damn about the rape victim. He is only concerned about the violation of another mans "property".



6) David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)



Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'

Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]



This has got to be one of the sickest quotes of the Bible. God himself brings the completely innocent rape victims to the rapist. What kind of pathetic loser would do something so evil? And then he kills a child! This is sick, really sick!



7) Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)



"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."


Once again God approves of forcible rape.



8) Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)



They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)



9) Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)



When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)



10) God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)



Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)



The following passage describes how the Hebrew slaves are to be treated.



If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)



Notice how they can get a male Hebrew slave to become a permanent slave by keeping his wife and children hostage until he says he wants to become a permanent slave. What kind of family values are these?



The following passage describes the sickening practice of sex slavery. How can anyone think it is moral to sell your own daughter as a sex slave?



When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)



So these are the Bible family values! A man can buy as many sex slaves as he wants as long as he feeds them, clothes them, and screws them!



What does the Bible say about beating slaves? It says you can beat both male and female slaves with a rod so hard that as long as they don't die right away you are cleared of any wrong doing.



When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)



You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show.



Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)



Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

[alkemical]

get some comprehension skills.

More skooling for ya:

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)



Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)



Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)



Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)



Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)



Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)



Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)



Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)



Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)



Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)



Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)



Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)



Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)



Kill Followers of Other Religions.

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)



2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)



Death for Blasphemy

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)



Kill False Prophets

1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)



2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)



Infidels and Gays Should Die

So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)



Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle

For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)



Kill People for Working on the Sabbath

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT

[yavoon]

oops, already addressed! u'd think ppl who could find the power button on a computer would be smarter than u clav, but I guess not.

source material? u mean like THE KORAN(we could go into more hadith and sharia too!)? look I'm not gna go into christian apologetics too heavily, because I probably wouldn't do it justice. but to the best of my knowledge the OT is overruled by jesus in the NT. also to be noted that a lot of the nasty in the OT are things u SHOULDN'T do, or are merely stories. it might also be noted that ppl practice a liberal interpretation of the bible because it is written by humans 'inspired by god' or what have u, and is therefore possible to err.

the koran does not operate like that. the koran is the literal word of god as given by the angel gabriel to the holy prophet mohammed. there is an EXACT copy of the koran in arabic in heaven. and if u'll notice the koran is generally more straightforward. as u can see a lot of mohammed's revelations were postmortem justifications or rallying cries to whatever mohammed did next.

[alkemical]

Gee it seems to me that the bible has alot of death, rape, murder, sex slavery, etc.

All in god's name. Wow imagine that.....

[bendog]

I should have made it more simple for him.

Islam - you only go to heaven if Allah wants it

RCC - you only go to heaven if the Christian God wants it.

Neither is inclusive. However, neither precludes it's God from acting with mercy.

[yavoon]

I should have made it more simple for him.

Islam - you only go to heaven if Allah wants it

RCC - you only go to heaven if the Christian God wants it.

Neither is inclusive. However, neither precludes it's God from acting with mercy.

"The Catholic Church professes that it is the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church of Christ; this it does not and could not deny. But in its Constitution the Church now solemnly acknowledges that the Holy Ghost is truly active in the churches and communities separated from itself. To these other Christian Churches the Catholic Church is bound in many ways: through reverence for God's word in the Scriptures; through the fact of baptism; through other sacraments which they recognize."

5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church." 6


drop it like its hot:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994), deals with the relationship of the Roman Catholic Church to non-Catholics in Topics 839 to 845. 9 Some points are:
839: Followers of other religions are referred to as "Those who have not yet received the gospel..." The implication is that they will eventually become united with the Roman Catholic Church.
839 to 841: The Roman Catholic Church has a special relationship to Jews and Muslims because of the common reverence for the patriarch Abraham.
843: Other religions contain "goodness and truth" which are "a preparation for the Gospel."
845: God wishes to "reunite all his children," of all religions who are "scattered and led astray by sin...together into" the Catholic Church.

the RCC didnt use to be this inclusionary, if u check back in the centuries it was a lot more exclusionary. face it, u got owned. u tried to hijack the world inclusion, now ur trying to rephrase the entire argument. I said the RCC recently has become more inclusionary, it has. just deal w/ it.

[alkemical]

oops, already addressed!

source material? u mean like THE KORAN(we could go into more hadith and sharia too!)? look I'm not gna go into christian apologetics too heavily, because I probably wouldn't do it justice. but to the best of my knowledge the OT is overruled by jesus in the NT. also to be noted that a lot of the nasty in the OT are things u SHOULDN'T do, or are merely stories. it might also be noted that ppl practice a liberal interpretation of the bible because it is written by humans 'inspired by god' or what have u, and is therefore possible to err.

the koran does not operate like that. the koran is the literal word of god as given by the angel gabriel to the holy prophet mohammed. there is an EXACT copy of the koran in arabic in heaven. and if u'll notice the koran is generally more straightforward. as u can see a lot of mohammed's revelations were postmortem justifications or rallying cries to whatever mohammed did next.



COP OUT!


You can't address it so you deflect. Because according to christians - man didn't write the bible you dumb****. There is no ERR with the side of man if you believe the bible is the holy word of god.

I can definitly see how your lack of command of any use of the written word causes your lacking ability to comprehend an on/off switch.

[yavoon]

Gee it seems to me that the bible has alot of death, rape, murder, sex slavery, etc.

All in god's name. Wow imagine that.....

source material? u mean like THE KORAN(we could go into more hadith and sharia too!)? look I'm not gna go into christian apologetics too heavily, because I probably wouldn't do it justice. but to the best of my knowledge the OT is overruled by jesus in the NT. also to be noted that a lot of the nasty in the OT are things u SHOULDN'T do, or are merely stories. it might also be noted that ppl practice a liberal interpretation of the bible because it is written by humans 'inspired by god' or what have u, and is therefore possible to err.

the koran does not operate like that. the koran is the literal word of god as given by the angel gabriel to the holy prophet mohammed. there is an EXACT copy of the koran in arabic in heaven. and if u'll notice the koran is generally more straightforward. as u can see a lot of mohammed's revelations were postmortem justifications or rallying cries to whatever mohammed did next.

[yavoon]

COP OUT!


You can't address it so you deflect. Because according to christians - man didn't write the bible you dumb****. There is no ERR with the side of man if you believe the bible is the holy word of god.

I can definitly see how your lack of command of any use of the written word causes your lacking ability to comprehend an on/off switch.

most christians believe man wrote the bible and is therefore fallible. and why not address the other points? are u too dumb to address the other points? I mean god forbid u address the post as an entirity.

source material? u mean like THE KORAN(we could go into more hadith and sharia too!)? look I'm not gna go into christian apologetics too heavily, because I probably wouldn't do it justice. but to the best of my knowledge the OT is overruled by jesus in the NT. also to be noted that a lot of the nasty in the OT are things u SHOULDN'T do, or are merely stories. it might also be noted that ppl practice a liberal interpretation of the bible because it is written by humans 'inspired by god' or what have u, and is therefore possible to err.

the koran does not operate like that. the koran is the literal word of god as given by the angel gabriel to the holy prophet mohammed. there is an EXACT copy of the koran in arabic in heaven. and if u'll notice the koran is generally more straightforward. as u can see a lot of mohammed's revelations were postmortem justifications or rallying cries to whatever mohammed did next.

[alkemical]

I should have made it more simple for him.

Islam - you only go to heaven if Allah wants it

RCC - you only go to heaven if the Christian God wants it.

Neither is inclusive. However, neither precludes it's God from acting with mercy.

LOL bendog.

I was thinking on making a briskit this weekend - but not sure if i'd rather go with ribs instead.

oh yeah, one other thing - you live near NOLA - i heard rumors that i can find a tasty green drink in that area....

[yavoon]

I should have made it more simple for him.

Islam - you only go to heaven if Allah wants it

RCC - you only go to heaven if the Christian God wants it.

Neither is inclusive. However, neither precludes it's God from acting with mercy.

here bendog, I'll lay it out for u, since u seem to be exceptionally stupid.

Pope Boniface VIII: "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." From his Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.

exclusionary. the definition of exclude: deny access or bar from a place gropu or privelage.

"The Catholic Church professes that it is the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church of Christ; this it does not and could not deny. But in its Constitution the Church now solemnly acknowledges that the Holy Ghost is truly active in the churches and communities separated from itself. To these other Christian Churches the Catholic Church is bound in many ways: through reverence for God's word in the Scriptures; through the fact of baptism; through other sacraments which they recognize."

5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church." 6

inclusionary. the definition of include: allow someone to share in activity or privelage.

step by step for ya!

[alkemical]

most christians believe man wrote the bible and is therefore fallible. and why not address the other points? are u too dumb to address the other points? I mean god forbid u address the post as an entirity.

source material? u mean like THE KORAN(we could go into more hadith and sharia too!)? look I'm not gna go into christian apologetics too heavily, because I probably wouldn't do it justice. but to the best of my knowledge the OT is overruled by jesus in the NT. also to be noted that a lot of the nasty in the OT are things u SHOULDN'T do, or are merely stories. it might also be noted that ppl practice a liberal interpretation of the bible because it is written by humans 'inspired by god' or what have u, and is therefore possible to err.

the koran does not operate like that. the koran is the literal word of god as given by the angel gabriel to the holy prophet mohammed. there is an EXACT copy of the koran in arabic in heaven. and if u'll notice the koran is generally more straightforward. as u can see a lot of mohammed's revelations were postmortem justifications or rallying cries to whatever mohammed did next.



1) MOST CHRISTIANS do not believe man wrote the bible. Infact if you read the bible you will know it specifically states that.

2) The NT doesn't cancel out the OT for everything. it would not be stories since it would be the historical and accurate portayal of history - validating the bible. Yes there were giants, yes sodom and gomorrah got leveled. Yes god created the earth in 6 days with one day off.

3) it's obvious you don't know anything about either religion other than the information you cherry pick from.

[alkemical]

here bendog, I'll lay it out for u, since u seem to be exceptionally stupid.

Pope Boniface VIII: "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." From his Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.

exclusionary. the definition of exclude: deny access or bar from a place gropu or privelage.

"The Catholic Church professes that it is the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church of Christ; this it does not and could not deny. But in its Constitution the Church now solemnly acknowledges that the Holy Ghost is truly active in the churches and communities separated from itself. To these other Christian Churches the Catholic Church is bound in many ways: through reverence for God's word in the Scriptures; through the fact of baptism; through other sacraments which they recognize."

5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church." 6

inclusionary. the definition of include: allow someone to share in activity or privelage.

step by step for ya!


it's only inclusive to other demominiations of christians and to join the club to go to heaven - you still have to be a christian!

Viola!

[yavoon]

1) MOST CHRISTIANS do not believe man wrote the bible. Infact if you read the bible you will know it specifically states that.

2) The NT doesn't cancel out the OT for everything. it would not be stories since it would be the historical and accurate portayal of history - validating the bible. Yes there were giants, yes sodom and gomorrah got leveled. Yes god created the earth in 6 days with one day off.

3) it's obvious you don't know anything about either religion other than the information you cherry pick from.

its obvious ur some special kind of stupid, like the economics thread u have no idea whats going on and everything is over ur head.

as for the 'stories' like god created earth in 6 days, lets check the RCC.

The Church does not have an official position on whether the stars, nebulae, and planets we see today were created at that time or whether they developed over time (for example, in the aftermath of the Big Bang that modern cosmologists discuss). However, the Church would maintain that, if the stars and planets did develop over time, this still ultimately must be attributed to God and his plan, for Scripture records: "By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all their host [stars, nebulae, planets] by the breath of his mouth" (Ps. 33:6).

Concerning biological evolution, the Church does not have an official position on whether various life forms developed over the course of time. However, it says that, if they did develop, then they did so under the impetus and guidance of God, and their ultimate creation must be ascribed to him.

Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that "the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are.


OOPS UR IGNORANT UGLY ASS IS WRONG AGAIN. how many times do u want to be wrong? and more importantly why are we no longer talking about islam? what cowardly relativist instinct led u to try to trash christianity in my response to stating truths about islam? I hate arguing w/ cowardly relativists, I bring up a subject and they completely change it for their own inane and stupid purposes.

[bendog]

it's only inclusive to other demominiations of christians and to join the club to go to heaven - you still have to be a christian!

Viola!

No, we allow for the fact that the Christian God may reach out, and pluck a goodly muslim from the jaws of Hell from time to time.

That's about it. Of course, muslims pretty much believe their God will do the same, from time to time. LOL

Jesus, I hadn't noticed he said most Christians thought the Bible might have "errors" in it.

What's wierd is that he posts the NT "cancelled out" some of the OT. It's wierd because his notion on inclusiveness of the RCC comes from the vaticanII reforms of the Pope Paul who was around in the 60s. Prior to that, the RCC had actively said Jews had to be converted to be saved. After that, they said the convenant of Jesus didn't cancell out the covenant of Moses, and a godly Jew was still material for salvation .... but the Holy Ghost had to interceed to bring the Jew up to heaven .... Jews don't believe in the Holy Ghost.

[yavoon]

lets drop some more info on clav's head about the literal veracity of the stories in the bible:

That is a possibility. Pope Pius XII warned us, "What is the literal sense of a passage is not always as obvious in the speeches and writings of the ancient authors of the East, as it is in the works of our own time. For what they wished to express is not to be determined by the rules of grammar and philology alone, nor solely by the context; the interpreter must, as it were, go back wholly in spirit to those remote centuries of the East and with the aid of history, archaeology, ethnology, and other sciences, accurately determine what modes of writing, so to speak, the authors of that ancient period would be likely to use, and in fact did use. For the ancient peoples of the East, in order to express their ideas, did not always employ those forms or kinds of speech which we use today; but rather those used by the men of their times and countries. What those exactly were the commentator cannot determine as it were in advance, but only after a careful examination of the ancient literature of the East" (Divino Afflante Spiritu 35–36).


lets check some more literal?

The Catechism states, "The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.

uh oh, figurative!

[yavoon]

No, we allow for the fact that the Christian God may reach out, and pluck a goodly muslim from the jaws of Hell from time to time.

That's about it. Of course, muslims pretty much believe their God will do the same, from time to time. LOL

Jesus, I hadn't noticed he said most Christians thought the Bible might have "errors" in it.

What's wierd is that he posts the NT "cancelled out" some of the OT. It's wierd because his notion on inclusiveness of the RCC comes from the vaticanII reforms of the Pope Paul who was around in the 60s. Prior to that, the RCC had actively said Jews had to be converted to be saved. After that, they said the convenant of Jesus didn't cancell out the covenant of Moses, and a godly Jew was still material for salvation .... but the Holy Ghost had to interceed to bring the Jew up to heaven .... Jews don't believe in the Holy Ghost.

I agree, the RCC changed its stance. as it is wont to do.

this is really a non argument though, nothing that I've said is wrong, and I've backed it up w/ quotes.

[alkemical]

its obvious ur some special kind of stupid, like the economics thread u have no idea whats going on and everything is over ur head.

as for the 'stories' like god created earth in 6 days, lets check the RCC.

The Church does not have an official position on whether the stars, nebulae, and planets we see today were created at that time or whether they developed over time (for example, in the aftermath of the Big Bang that modern cosmologists discuss). However, the Church would maintain that, if the stars and planets did develop over time, this still ultimately must be attributed to God and his plan, for Scripture records: "By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all their host [stars, nebulae, planets] by the breath of his mouth" (Ps. 33:6).

Concerning biological evolution, the Church does not have an official position on whether various life forms developed over the course of time. However, it says that, if they did develop, then they did so under the impetus and guidance of God, and their ultimate creation must be ascribed to him.

Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that "the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are.


OOPS UR IGNORANT UGLY ASS IS WRONG AGAIN. how many times do u want to be wrong? and more importantly why are we no longer talking about islam? what cowardly relativist instinct led u to try to trash christianity in my response to stating truths about islam? I hate arguing w/ cowardly relativists, I bring up a subject and they completely change it for their own inane and stupid purposes.



Actually you are the special kind of stupid.

You already said you don't know much about christianity and it's quite obvious.

You are going to a special hell.....

[yavoon]

No, we allow for the fact that the Christian God may reach out, and pluck a goodly muslim from the jaws of Hell from time to time.

That's about it. Of course, muslims pretty much believe their God will do the same, from time to time. LOL

Jesus, I hadn't noticed he said most Christians thought the Bible might have "errors" in it.

What's wierd is that he posts the NT "cancelled out" some of the OT. It's wierd because his notion on inclusiveness of the RCC comes from the vaticanII reforms of the Pope Paul who was around in the 60s. Prior to that, the RCC had actively said Jews had to be converted to be saved. After that, they said the convenant of Jesus didn't cancell out the covenant of Moses, and a godly Jew was still material for salvation .... but the Holy Ghost had to interceed to bring the Jew up to heaven .... Jews don't believe in the Holy Ghost.

muslims believe everyone is born muslim. and that abraham was the first muslim(though the koran is somewhat contradictory on this).

"And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam," (2:132).

[yavoon]

Actually you are the special kind of stupid.

You already said you don't know much about christianity and it's quite obvious.

You are going to a special hell.....

oops got ur ass owned again? thats what I'd do if someone ate me for lunch like I am doing to u, I'd send them to hell.


hahahahahahhahahaha


The hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching document instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are not actually true.

The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of scripture, that they should not expect “total accuracy” from the Bible.

“We should not expect to find in Scripture full scientific accuracy or complete historical precision,” they say in The Gift of Scripture. [October 5, 2005; Independent Online]


OOPS, dont look now! best to just send me to hell.

[alkemical]

oops got ur ass owned again? thats what I'd do if someone ate me for lunch like I am doing to u, I'd send them to hell.


hahahahahahhahahaha


The hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching document instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are not actually true.

The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of scripture, that they should not expect “total accuracy” from the Bible.

“We should not expect to find in Scripture full scientific accuracy or complete historical precision,” they say in The Gift of Scripture. [October 5, 2005; Independent Online]


OOPS, dont look now! best to just send me to hell.



where is the RCC the authority on christinaity - i guess i missed another deflection.

Really and by the way - you are the one who got owned. It's quite easy to tell when you do. Everyone here knows it, we just laugh at you.

[bendog]

What astounds me is that there are so many web sites on Islam, mostly by American muslims ... there was one out of USC I read years back, that anyone should see that Islam can be a way of life that benefits families and gives people a creed to be at peace with their neighbors.

Of course there are fundy islamists too.

[yavoon]

where is the RCC the authority on christinaity - i guess i missed another deflection.

Really and by the way - you are the one who got owned. It's quite easy to tell when you do. Everyone here knows it, we just laugh at you.

so lets see, u tried to imply that christians take the bible literally and I quoted the RCC saying they don't. the RCC isnt the final word, but quoting them encompasses a fairly large amount of christendom.

just give it up, ur in way over ur head here.

first u tried to argue that all religions think they're the only accepted religion(relativist stupidity #1), I posted quotes showing u thats not true.

then u tried to argue that(I guess) christianity is 'just as bad' as islam, which is basically a textbook weak kneed relativist viewpoint. call that #2. I showed u there were fundamental differences in how both faiths view their book. I didnt even have to mention the differences between jesus and mohammed. so ur owned again.

u then tried to complain that there weren't those differences and that christians took the bible literally. I then slammed ur nose in the RCC, which showed, yet again, that u were wrong.

it seems to me ur jumping from branch to branch getting absolutely owned and hoping that ur politics or ur blustering will save u. it wont. ur only salvation will be if u start using ur brain and learning to think.

[yavoon]

What astounds me is that there are so many web sites on Islam, mostly by American muslims ... there was one out of USC I read years back, that anyone should see that Islam can be a way of life that benefits families and gives people a creed to be at peace with their neighbors.

Of course there are fundy islamists too.

I just wish ppl would use their brain for once, just once. islam is not an abstraction, its fricking written down for u! if u want to know what islam thinks about families, read. I can show u what islam thinks about women, its not very pretty, and certainly not modern.

[fido]

perhaps it would be pertinent to note that maybe religions in and of themselves are the root of all evil, because if you don't believe the way I do, you need to die........that's why they are mostly all a nice, smelly pile

[yavoon]

perhaps it would be pertinent to note that maybe religions in and of themselves are the root of all evil, because if you don't believe the way I do, you need to die........that's why they are mostly all a nice, smelly pile

I would propose that religions are/become evil when they demote and usurp reason. when dogma overcomes the mind, humanity is sacrificed.

Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.
Thomas Jefferson

[baja]

so lets see, u tried to imply that christians take the bible literally and I quoted the RCC saying they don't. the RCC isnt the final word, but quoting them encompasses a fairly large amount of christendom.

just give it up, ur in way over ur head here.

first u tried to argue that all religions think they're the only accepted religion(relativist stupidity #1), I posted quotes showing u thats not true.

then u tried to argue that(I guess) christianity is 'just as bad' as islam, which is basically a textbook weak kneed relativist viewpoint. call that #2. I showed u there were fundamental differences in how both faiths view their book. I didnt even have to mention the differences between jesus and mohammed. so ur owned again.

u then tried to complain that there weren't those differences and that christians took the bible literally. I then slammed ur nose in the RCC, which showed, yet again, that u were wrong.

it seems to me ur jumping from branch to branch getting absolutely owned and hoping that ur politics or ur blustering will save u. it wont. ur only salvation will be if u start using ur brain and learning to think.

While some of what you claim may be somewhat true at least he is not a self absorbed ass hole like you.

[yavoon]

While some of what you claim may be somewhat true at least he is not a self absorbed a-hole like you.

=D, ahh lets hug!

[baja]

Dude you are just so full of yourself. Who you trying to convince anyway?

[yavoon]

Dude you are just so full of yourself. Who you trying to convince anyway?

if thats what u've got against me, thats fine:).

[baja]

I don't have anything against you you are free to behave as you like I'm just saying how it appears to some others. I see a lot of patronizing by tourists toward locals here in Baja so I recognize it when I see it.

[yavoon]

I don't have anything against you you are free to behave as you like I'm just saying how it appears to some others. I see a lot of patronizing by tourists toward locals here in Baja so I recognize it when I see it.

ur probably not gna like this post:).

patronizing: treat w/ an apparent kindness that betrays a feeling of superiority.

atleast I'm still kind!

[yavoon]

maybe an attempt to refind the thread.

muslim immigration into the US is at an alltime high, they can't distrust us that much. in contrast islamic countries, or even countries w/ significant muslim populations are forcing out their competition.

* The Christian population of the areas under the control of the Palestinian Authority (PA) has sharply declined in recent decades, as tens of thousands have abandoned their holy sites and ancestral properties to live abroad. Those who remain comprise a beleaguered and dwindling minority. In sharp contrast, Israel's Christian community has prospered and grown by at least 270 percent since the founding of the state.

In Lebanon, where Christians were once a solid majority of the country, they number less than one million people today, and are shrinking rapidly.

everyone likes the west, and all religions are prospering in israel. but in islamic lands its becoming increasingly 'pure.' islam marches steadily towards its goals.

[baja]

ur probably not gna like this post:).

patronizing: treat w/ an apparent kindness that betrays a feeling of superiority.

atleast I'm still kind!

You probably don't even know that now you are doing it to me.

[yavoon]

You probably don't even know that now you are doing it to me.

I posted something but I decided to delete to not waste thread space. I don't want to argue over words or stupid perceptions.

[bendog]

yavoon, the muslims don't believe in the holy ghost. If traditional christianity were inclusive, it would have to allow muslims into heaven w/o the holy ghost. What WE are effectively saying to muslims, is that OUR GOD so loves you, he operates in your mosques. I'm not quite sure why you don't get this.

I'm starting think you may be a fundamentalist Jew.

Clav,

I'm not sure of many things, but traditional Christianity is one of them, as it takes up more than anything else of my day. So, I say this with some assurance, anything yavoon's posted he's taken so out of context and misunderstood that it's bordering on one of those old Abbott and Costello routines.

PS, I cooked up 20 sausage patties before work, and I'll do another 40 or so after work. 3lbs done ... 7lbs to go. I'm thinking of investing in either a steam table or some electric device like an oversized / shallow crock pot to keep scrambled eggs warm.

Also, if I give up shaving, I could pass for Frank McGrath, the cook on Wagon Train

[alkemical]

yavoon, the muslims don't believe in the holy ghost. If traditional christianity were inclusive, it would have to allow muslims into heaven w/o the holy ghost. What WE are effectively saying to muslims, is that OUR GOD so loves you, he operates in your mosques. I'm not quite sure why you don't get this.

I'm starting think you may be a fundamentalist Jew.

Clav,

I'm not sure of many things, but traditional Christianity is one of them, as it takes up more than anything else of my day. So, I say this with some assurance, anything yavoon's posted he's taken so out of context and misunderstood that it's bordering on one of those old Abbott and Costello routines.



nyuk nyuk nyuk

wooo woo woo woo

[yavoon]

yavoon, the muslims don't believe in the holy ghost. If traditional christianity were inclusive, it would have to allow muslims into heaven w/o the holy ghost. What WE are effectively saying to muslims, is that OUR GOD so loves you, he operates in your mosques. I'm not quite sure why you don't get this.

I'm starting think you may be a fundamentalist Jew.

Clav,

I'm not sure of many things, but traditional Christianity is one of them, as it takes up more than anything else of my day. So, I say this with some assurance, anything yavoon's posted he's taken so out of context and misunderstood that it's bordering on one of those old Abbott and Costello routines.

PS, I cooked up 20 sausage patties before work, and I'll do another 40 or so after work. 3lbs done ... 7lbs to go. I'm thinking of investing in either a steam table or some electric device like an oversized / shallow crock pot to keep scrambled eggs warm.

Also, if I give up shaving, I could pass for Frank McGrath, the cook on Wagon Train

I never said that muslims believed in the holy ghost.

[alkemical]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1964838,00.html

Britons to attend Iran's Holocaust conference


· Gathering will consider whether deaths took place
· Event 'will not be a forum for anti-semites'


Iran announced yesterday details of a conference questioning whether the Holocaust really happened, prompted by an international outcry a year ago when President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad described the slaughter of six million Jews by the Nazis as "myth" fabricated to justify Israel.
The foreign ministry said "intellectuals and researchers" from 30 countries - including Britain - would attend Studying the Holocaust: An international view, in Tehran on Monday and Tuesday.

The idea for the gathering was dismissed earlier this year as "shocking, ridiculous and stupid" by Tony Blair. Iran responded by inviting him to attend.

[alkemical]

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/michael_darlow/2006/12/post_756.html

The Holocaust happened
Iran's decision to go ahead with a conference questioning the truth in order to attack Israel is deeply shocking.


The news that Iran is to go ahead with a conference that will supposedly investigate whether the Holocaust actually happened is deeply shocking.

Thirty years ago when I was working on the holocaust episode of the ITV series The World At War I and my colleagues deliberately decided not to stop when we had gathered the first hand witness evidence we needed for making the programme, but to gather more and put it together to be kept for posterity for use against the day when people or states claiming intellectual respectability might try to claim that the Holocaust did not happen.

Sadly, it seems that that day may now have arrived. We did not only collect the eye witness evidence of those who were victims in Hitlers's final solution but from people who held senior positions in its planning, administration and execution. All this material is stored in the Imperial War Museum, is available and will, I hope, now be used to show that those who would now deny that the Holocaust happened are wrong.

No one denies that the Jews were not the only victims of the Holocaust or that hundreds of thousands of Gipsies, slavs, homosexuals and others who the Nazis deemed unworthy also perished. To quibble about the precise number of Jews who died is idle and often, as we have seen in the past, the opening gambit of those who would seek to go on to deny that the Holocaust happened at all. No one knows the precise number who died. Whether it was exactly six million, somewhat more or rather less is irrelevant to the moral enormity of what happened. One of our witnesses recalls that at the end of the war when Himmler was told that six million Jews had been killed his only comment was "Is that all?" and to regret that it had not been more.

To accept the truth of the Holocaust is not to deny the appalling injustice of what has been done to the Palestinians nor to support the policies of modern Israel right or wrong. I myself have been attacked by supporters of Israel for being critical of Israeli actions towards the Palestinians but to deny or minimise the truth of the Holocaust as a means of attacking or undermining Israel is both immoral and dishonest

[bendog]

sort of like why the UN is indispensable. In a nuclear world, despots have to be outed for what they are. Bushii's idiocy is thinking that the military is good for anything but a deterrent, and revenge.

[alkemical]

sort of like why the UN is indispensable. In a nuclear world, despots have to be outed for what they are. Bushii's idiocy is thinking that the military is good for anything but a deterrent, and revenge.



When you present people with the obvious bendog, why is it that you are always met with resistance?

[bendog]

Thanks, man.

Jean Kilpatrick passed today. RIP

[penguintheory]

what I think is so bad about what? islam?

mohammed sold slaves, had slaves, beheaded entire tribes of men, slept w/ 9 nine year olds, raided trade caravans, murdered poets for lampooning him, sanctioned hatred, setup a pseudo slave state called dhimmitude, destroyed other religious symbols(now famous w/ all the ex jewish/christian places), led over 2 dozen military expeditions.


Wow, sounds like George Washington!