More Evidence Big Oil is Manipulating Fuel Prices?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

It would seem so.......

----------------------------------------------
AP analysis: Firms crimping oil supplies
By JEFF DONN, Associated Press Writer Sat Nov 25, 8:55 PM ET

BAKERSFIELD, Calif. - You'd think it was Texas. Dusty roads course the scrubland toward oil tanks and warehouses. Beefy men talk oil over burritos at lunch. Like grazing herds, oil wells dip nonstop amid the tumbleweed — or even into the asphalt of a parking lot.


http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20061125/capt.f06ed20fd28242bb967ad341242f3c7c.ungushing_oi l_ny316.jpg?x=380&y=253&sig=6yMex_kytESH9paVLmPMYg--
Storage tanks at the Flying J oil refinery in Bakersfield, Calif., sit beyond old oil pumping equipment Oct. 12, 2006. The refinery is so full of promise that Flying J has decided to spend several hundred million dollars to nearly double its gasoline output. It hopes to make about $85 million more a year in profit. (AP Photo/Damian Dovarganes)

That's why the rumor sounded so wrong here in California's lower San Joaquin Valley, where petroleum has gushed up more riches than the whole gold rush. Why would Shell Oil Co. simply close its Bakersfield refinery? Why scrap a profit maker?

The rumor seemed to make no sense. Yet it was true.

The company says it could make more money on other projects. It denies it intended to squeeze the market, as its critics would claim, to drive up gasoline profits at its other refineries in the region.

Whatever the truth in Bakersfield, an Associated Press analysis suggests that big oil companies have been crimping supplies in subtler ways across the country for years. And tighter supplies tend to drive up prices.

The analysis, based on data from the U.S. Energy Information Administration, indicates that the industry slacked off supplying oil and gasoline during the prolonged price boom between early 1999 and last summer, when prices began to fall.

The industry counters that it's been working hard to meet untiring demand. It faults output quotas set by Mideast oil powers, global competition for oil from booming economies like China's, and domestic challenges like depleting wells, clean-air rules, and hurricanes. They do make things harder.

Yet the AP analysis found evidence of at least an underwhelming industry performance in supplying the domestic market, when profits should have made investment capital plentiful:

_During the 1999-2006 price boom, the industry drilled an average of 7 percent fewer new wells monthly than in the seven preceding years of low, stable prices.

_The national supply of unrefined oil, including imports, grew an average of only 6 percent during the high-priced years, down from 14 percent during the previous span.

_The gasoline supply expanded by only 10 percent from 1999 to 2006, down from 15 percent in the earlier period.

The findings support a conclusion already reached by many motorists. Fifty-five percent of Americans believe gas prices are high because oil companies manipulate them, a Pew Research Center poll found in October.

Even in Bakersfield, which lives off oil, many suspect that the industry goes easy on supply for its own reasons. "They ain't trying: that's more money for them," snorted JaRayle Madden, a construction worker filling up his little sedan recently at a local Shell station.

___

This fast-growing city of 300,000 shuddered in November 2003, when Shell confirmed it would soon close its local refinery. Plant workers, consumer activists and public officials rose up in resistance, firing off letters and demanding meetings.

The 70-year-old refinery only produced 2 percent of California's gasoline and 6 percent of its diesel fuel. Yet opponents feared its demise would push up prices in the tight markets all along the West Coast.

In these circumstances, surely the plant was worth something to someone, if not to Shell. After losing $57 million mostly in the aftermath of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, the refinery was making money again, Shell acknowledged.

Though set back temporarily by the attacks, the oil business has profited handsomely since then. For example, the biggest six refiners — Shell is only No. 12 nationally but powerful in California — rang up $400 billion in profits since 2001, according to the consumer group Public Citizen and corporate reports. Even compliance with complex clean-air rules hasn't spoiled business.
CONT (http://tinyurl.com/y55be4)

[Meck77]

Is there any doubt to this now? I think not.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

You'd be surprised how many fools defend the oil companies in any effort to justify their Bush/Cheney vote.

[Rohirrim]

I enjoy it when Congress brings all the oil executives in and asks them, "Are you colluding to reduce supply and raise prices?"
Then all the execs stand up, one by one, and say, "No."
Congress says, "You promise?"
Oil execs, holding up palms, "Cross our hearts and hope to die."
Congress, "Thank you for coming to this hearing. Your participation has been forthright and frankly, we are happy to see your honest appraisal of the situation. Don't forget to leave loads of money in our campaign coffers as you exit the buiilding."

It's one of my favorite Washington entertainments.

[baja]

Just look at the obscene profits what more does one need.

[W*GS]

What percentage of the crude oil in the ground is controlled by state-owned oil companies?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Deflection alert. :oyvey:

[W*GS]

"Deflection" is what LABF calls "facts that upset my dogma".

[Sassy]

...and I ask again...yes, oil is making money...but do you realize how much operating costs are for one well...and then there's a chance it could be dry?
Not to mention the cost of transporting it? That's the problem ND is having...we have oil here...but no pipelines.

[Meck77]

I have a general idea. I'd be curious to hear your numbers sassy. Do you have a per barrel price?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The profits companies like Exxon and Shell are making are WAY more than enough to offset their operating costs.

It's laughable that people actually fall for that line of BS.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

"Facts?"

W*GS didn't offer any facts - he just changed the subject with a question.

[W*GS]

Anything that upsets LABF's dogmatic apple cart is labelled a "deflection", just to avoid having to think about the subject.

Simplicity to the point of stupidity is his preference.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

:laugh:

W*GS is obviously so grandiose that he thinks merely posing a question is enough to "upset" someone's argument.

Simplicity to the point of stupidity is his preference.


:laugh:

From deflection to projection.

[rugbythug]

Why all the hate for oil companies? The deliver a product you enjoy the product. Don't like it stop buying. Its an easy fix. Oil companies make money selling oil. The more they sell the more money they make. Go to any Oil and Gas rich area and just look at all the new guys with jobs getting stuff done.

[W*GS]

If you'd research the question I posed, you'd become wiser.

But you can't allow that - it gets in the way of one of your rants. Lefties often have the same problem - just like the righties they whine about.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

At any rate, how do we know that the right-wing disinfo merchants are wrong about Big Oil's profit margins vs. costs?

Oil was profitable at $30 a barrel - that's how.

Grocery stores operate on 1% to 2% profit margins, and yet there are numerous grocery store chains. How are they profitable? COSTCO (who pays their lowest start salary at $10-11/hr, gives full benefits to all, has a CEO who makes $300k to 500k/year) is the third leading retailer and operates on razor thin margins (less than grocery stores) but has a yearly profit of $3 billion.

How can they compete? How is it that they are so successful?

W*GS and his fellow "free market" propagandists would have us believe that the CEOs at Chevron were starving when the company was making only a few million/billion during the $20/barrel days (as compared to the quarterly $12 billion, $42 billion/yr profit it's making now.)

The arguments you hear from the oil industry brownie hounds on this board are laughable insofar as they would have us believe Exxon can't operate at a third of its current profit levels of $40 billion (which it managed to do before the war for decades) or at its 10% profit margin when other industries operate at 1% to 3% margins and still produce profits at $3 billion (Costco) to $12-16 bilion (Wal-Mart) in industries with WAY more competition than the oligopolpy of the oil industry.

Furthermore, companies like Exxon can use all sorts of accounting tricks to depreciate or appreciate the cost of doing business.

Oil companies can choose whatever number they want to represent the cost of goods or operations (especially since they own the subsidairies or interest in refineries.) Bill can say he charged you $1000 - fine and dandy when Bill is your bro and the head of a company you have an interest in.

[TheDave]

Why all the hate for oil companies? The deliver a product you enjoy the product. Don't like it stop buying. Its an easy fix. Oil companies make money selling oil. The more they sell the more money they make. Go to any Oil and Gas rich area and just look at all the new guys with jobs getting stuff done.

I don't have the same level of hate as some here... BUT.... in fairness, it's a little difficult to stop buying their product and live a normal life. Give me an affordable electric car option and i would be all over it.

[Spider]

Why all the hate for oil companies? The deliver a product you enjoy the product. Don't like it stop buying. Its an easy fix. Oil companies make money selling oil. The more they sell the more money they make. Go to any Oil and Gas rich area and just look at all the new guys with jobs getting stuff done.

I work for the oil drilling companies , and you are full of **** , the turn over in the patch is just as high anywhere else , and stop buying it ?
wtf .Plastics , Heating oil ... oh never mind , you right wing retards are all the same

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Why all the hate for oil companies? The deliver a product you enjoy the product. Don't like it stop buying. Its an easy fix.

So, by this logic, if the product I deliver happens to be groceries, then I have a right to charge you 3x the current price for every item in the store, have the government subsidize my costs with your tax dollars, and you should just take it in stride and w/o any complaints (or just stop buying groceries?)

And before you say something like "oil/gas aren't essential like food," you might want to think about that for a minute first.

[Spider]

So, by this logic, if the product I deliver happens to be groceries, then I have a right to charge you 3x the current price for every item in the store, have the government subsidize my costs with your tax dollars, and you should just take it in stride and w/o any complaints (or just stop buying groceries?)

And before you say something like "oil/gas aren't essential like food," you might want to think about that for a minute first.

we already are ...... called a fuel sur charge , and it keeps just getting higher

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I don't have the same level of hate as some here... BUT.... in fairness, it's a little difficult to stop buying their product and live a normal life. Give me an affordable electric car option and i would be all over it.

Something tells me the person to whose post you are responding is too young to drive. ;)

[Meck77]

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/1553/oilyt5.gif (http://imageshack.us)

This is a 12 month chart of oil.

I'd post the link about the energy non-crisis again but it's been posted enough. As far as avoiding oil it's impossible. Just about everything we consume is tied to the cost of oil.

[TheDave]

Something tells me the person to whose post you are responding is too young to drive. ;)

Should of thought of that...:thumbsup:

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The only campaign ad the Democratic nominee should need in the GE:

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9568/tomgasprices3fm4.gif

[Spider]

The only campaign ad the Democratic nominee should need in the GE:

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9568/tomgasprices3fm4.gif

LOL I can just see W*GS now ......

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

LOL I can just see W*GS now ......

;D

He won't have an answer for it, but no worries - he can just change the subject to FDR or Clinton and claim victory. ;)

[baja]

Why all the hate for oil companies? The deliver a product you enjoy the product. Don't like it stop buying. Its an easy fix. Oil companies make money selling oil. The more they sell the more money they make. Go to any Oil and Gas rich area and just look at all the new guys with jobs getting stuff done.

TJ, ever thought of issuing a basic IQ test to people seeking to register here before you welcome them aboard.

Ya I'm mad as hell so I'm going to stop using petroleum products.

[rugbythug]

I work for the oil drilling companies , and you are full of **** , the turn over in the patch is just as high anywhere else , and stop buying it ?
wtf .Plastics , Heating oil ... oh never mind , you right wing retards are all the same

You 3rd grade educated truck drivers from casper are all the same. Bitch about things that are enriching your life. You drive you have plastic soles on your feet and enough money for more than basic cable. Get over yourself. The oil companies have the right to whatever money they make. Don't like it fix it Stop bitching. It could be much worse, and if Gov't gets involved it will be.

[baja]

You 3rd grade educated truck drivers from casper are all the same. b**** about things that are enriching your life. You drive you have plastic soles on your feet and enough money for more than basic cable. Get over yourself. The oil companies have the right to whatever money they make. Don't like it fix it Stop b****ing. It could be much worse, and if Gov't gets involved it will be.

Let me guess you pump gas for a living.

[rugbythug]

So, by this logic, if the product I deliver happens to be groceries, then I have a right to charge you 3x the current price for every item in the store, have the government subsidize my costs with your tax dollars, and you should just take it in stride and w/o any complaints (or just stop buying groceries?)

And before you say something like "oil/gas aren't essential like food," you might want to think about that for a minute first.

Bet your garden would be bigger or you would eat other products. Please Free Markets are just that. Grocery stores can charge whatever they want. But you don't buy 6 dollar milk. Your arguments for profit margins in a retail store versus a oil company are flawed. Retail stores don't sell commodities and they don't produce what they sell.

[rugbythug]

Let me guess you pump gas for a living.

No I am a sales manager for a tool company, I get sick of people blaming others for their problems instead of fixing them themselves.

[rugbythug]

TJ, ever thought of issuing a basic IQ test to people seeking to register here before you welcome them aboard.

Ya I'm mad as hell so I'm going to stop using petroleum products.

Where would you post if he did?

[baja]

right here

[baja]

No I am a sales manager for a tool company, I get sick of people blaming others for their problems instead of fixing them themselves.

How would you fix Enron?

[rugbythug]

Something tells me the person to whose post you are responding is too young to drive. ;)

http://books.google.com/books?id=ax6dsqMdPHQC&dq=basic+economics&pg=PP1&ots=gS2n8EbkyV&sig=v1chi-GHqyXOxDU5iVGEfbbgOtA&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=basic+economics&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail

[rugbythug]

How would you fix Enron?

As a CEO I would not have created a culture of Lieing and CHeating for one. They had to know the shell game was going to end. Just short sighted.

[rugbythug]

I don't have the same level of hate as some here... BUT.... in fairness, it's a little difficult to stop buying their product and live a normal life. Give me an affordable electric car option and i would be all over it.

Make one and you will make bill gates look poor. Of course we need to get into Nuke Electric for this model to truly work well.

[baja]

Rug - I get sick of people blaming others for their problems instead of fixing them themselves.

Dude you are not the CEO tell me how you would 'fix' Enron as a citizen, few complainers are the CEO of the companies they are complaining about.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Bet your garden would be bigger or you would eat other products.

Bad analogy (unless you are suggesting that I can drill my own oil well and build a refinery in my back yard.)

Also, when it comes to petrolium-based products, your "you would eat other products" analogy is flawed: The price of gas is roughly the same no matter where I buy it.

Your arguments for profit margins in a retail store versus a oil company are flawed. Retail stores don't sell commodities and they don't produce what they sell.

Now you're making my point for me.

To the extent that oil companies are involved in the production of their own product, own the refineries, etc., they can make what ever bogus claims they want about the 'cost of doing business' - with no oversight.

[rugbythug]

Dude you are not the CEO tell me how you would 'fix' Enron as a citizen, few complainers are the CEO of the companies they are complaining about.


They should probably complain about something else then. As a citizen I would avoid Enron.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

As a citizen I would avoid Enron.

:stupid:

How would you, as a citizen, "avoid Enron" if, say, Enron provided all of the electric power for most of the state you lived in?

[rugbythug]

Bad analogy (unless you are suggesting that I can drill my own oil well and build a refinery in my back yard.)

Also, when it comes to petrolium-based products, your "you would eat other products" analogy is flawed: The price of gas is roughly the same no matter where I buy it.



Now you're making my point for me.

To the extent that oil companies are involved in the production of their own product, own the refineries, etc., they can make what ever bogus claims they want about the 'cost of doing business' - with no oversight.

Your analogy was grocery stores so I eloborated on your analogy. Not mine. And you can avoid gas. Ride a bike, move closer to work. Heat with wood. All valid easy to implement ways to stick it to the gas company.

Your solution to your not wanting to pay gas prices is to get gov't oversight? Cmon when has the Gov't every made anything cheaper. Has the Gov't oversight made your housing cheaper in CA??

[rugbythug]

:stupid:

How would you, as a citizen, "avoid Enron" if, say, Enron provided all of the electric power for most of the state you lived in?

Well for instance My dad has installed solar panels on his home. One of my teachers at UW lived so far out in the boonies that to get power lines to his house it would have cost over 100k. He is completely off the grid.

[baja]

They should probably complain about something else then. As a citizen I would avoid Enron.

Would you buy candles and a wood stove or just freeze in the dark?

[rugbythug]

with a name like Baja I am guessing your problem is sweating not freezing. Also my interaction with enron was limited because they were mostly based in the south-but again less freezing.

[baja]

with a name like Baja I am guessing your problem is sweating not freezing. Also my interaction with enron was limited because they were mostly based in the south-but again less freezing.

I am sure you get my point no need to deflect it only serves to diminish your creditability.

[rugbythug]

Then read above your own post for how other people have gone off grid. All you can do is try witty retorts rather than deal in realities. If you don't like something change it and stop bitching.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Your analogy was grocery stores so I eloborated on your analogy.

Yes, it was my analogy, but your extension of the analogy was faulty, as I demonstrated.


And you can avoid gas. Ride a bike, move closer to work. Heat with wood. All valid easy to implement ways to stick it to the gas company.

Two problems:

1) Not everyone can do these things. (If they can, then that's great, and they should.)

2) Gas isn't the only thing we, as a nation, depend on oil for. The vast majority of our agriculture (food supply) is petrolium-based, as are pharmaceuticals, plastics, etc.

Your solution to your not wanting to pay gas prices is to get gov't oversight? Cmon when has the Gov't every made anything cheaper. Has the Gov't oversight made your housing cheaper in CA??

???

Do you remember how much a gallon of gas cost when Clinton was in office?

[baja]

Then read above your own post for how other people have gone off grid. All you can do is try witty retorts rather than deal in realities. If you don't like something change it and stop b****ing.

You are an incredible idealist offering a simple but unworkable solution.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Then read above your own post for how other people have gone off grid.

This "argument" is silly insofar as not everyone has the means to get off the grid.

[rugbythug]

Yes, it was my analogy, but your extension of the analogy was faulty, as I demonstrated.



Two problems:

1) Not everyone can do these things. (If they can, then that's great, and they should.)

2) Gas isn't the only thing we, as a nation, depend on oil for. The vast majority of our agriculture (food supply) is petrolium-based, as are pharmaceuticals, plastics, etc.



???

Do you remember how much a gallon of gas cost when Clinton was in office?


Oil is a comodity, clinton nor bush controls the price of oil. People can change there lives to avoid Oil consumption and if the price keeps rising they actually will.

Agriculture needs to let go of the last of the Gov't handouts, they only serve large corporate farms anyway.

[rugbythug]

This "argument" is silly insofar as not everyone has the means to get off the grid.

They don't until they can't pay for power, and then they will find a way.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Well for instance My dad has installed solar panels on his home. One of my teachers at UW lived so far out in the boonies that to get power lines to his house it would have cost over 100k. He is completely off the grid.

Great - so your solution is for everyone else in, say, Los Angeles, Portland, and Seattle, to follow him out there?

Any more sage advice while you're on a roll here?

:D

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

They don't until they can't pay for power, and then they will find a way.

If you're such a big fan of alternative energy then why would you support a president and party who've done just about everything humanly possible to maintain the status quo on that front?

[rugbythug]

Better than the gaping void you offer

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Better than the gaping void you offer

ROFL!

That's a laugh.

The original topic was how the oil companies are fleecing the American consumer.

Your first response was to take the side of the oil companies and to tell the consumers to either stop buying petrolium products or shut up.

I showed how the oil companies could still make a handsome profit without gouging the consumers.

You responded with some non-sequitor sh*t about getting of the grid (another variation on the "if you don't like the way the oil companies do business, then lump it" argument.)

[TheDave]

You are an incredible idealist offering a simple but unworkable solution.

now you see how irratating that is... ;)

[Meck77]

Your analogy was grocery stores so I eloborated on your analogy. Not mine. And you can avoid gas. Ride a bike, move closer to work. Heat with wood. ?
Have you ever heated a home on wood alone? I did it last november for more than a month while we were overhauling the hot water heat system. I burned through almost two cords in that time. With 126,000,000 housing units America there would be a brown cloud over our country in a couple weeks.
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html


Besides many cities have air regulations to where you can't even use a fireplace on certain days. On top of that new homes in Denver for example can't even have wood burning fireplaces anymore.

I understand the point you are trying to make but I challenge you to not watch your tv, use your computer, connect to the internet, drive your car, heat your home, or eat food that was delivered to a grocery store.

I suppose you can avoid the consumption of oil if you build your own home in the woods with hand tools, never leave your land, grow all your own food without the use of tractors, and drink well water that uses a windmill you might have a chance. What do you suggest we do with the hundred million or so existing homes in America tied to oil?

[baja]

Dave your main complaint with RP is the gold standard which neither he nor I advocate.

[Spider]

You 3rd grade educated truck drivers from casper are all the same. b**** about things that are enriching your life. You drive you have plastic soles on your feet and enough money for more than basic cable. Get over yourself. The oil companies have the right to whatever money they make. Don't like it fix it Stop b****ing. It could be much worse, and if Gov't gets involved it will be.

LOL you **** , you dont have the balls to do my job , 3 minutes you would be screaming for your mommy ........ But one thing is obvious you turd , your mom Drank , Smoked , Dropped Acid while she was knocked up with your phoney ass ........

[alkemical]

No I am a sales manager for a tool company, I get sick of people blaming others for their problems instead of fixing them themselves.

Man there are some good jokes sitting in that one.

[W*GS]

W*GS and his fellow "free market" propagandists would have us believe that the CEOs at Chevron were starving[...]

I've never said, or implied, any such thing.

On the other hand, you've revealed your naked envy and ignorant populism for all to see. Thanks!

[Spider]

Man there are some good jokes sitting in that one.

LOL just to show you how bright boy wonder is , his entire living is based off of truckers , who are hit the hardest by price gouging , if we got off the grid , his phoney ass would starve .......

[alkemical]

You tell 'em spider! ;)

[Spider]

You tell 'em spider! ;)

;D

[Spider]

what this dope rugby thug doesnt get is , it all comes full circle , I need the guy in the cubical doing his job , or the guy doing telemarketing doing his job , the more money is being spent , and the more people buy , it is good for everyone ..... what the oil companies are doing is ,Forcing a higher rate on all goods , while taking away more disposable income from the lower and the middle class ..... Meat , produce , canned goods just dont show up in stores on their own ...

[rugbythug]

ROFL!

That's a laugh.

The original topic was how the oil companies are fleecing the American consumer.

Your first response was to take the side of the oil companies and to tell the consumers to either stop buying petrolium products or shut up.

I showed how the oil companies could still make a handsome profit without gouging the consumers.

You responded with some non-sequitor sh*t about getting of the grid (another variation on the "if you don't like the way the oil companies do business, then lump it" argument.)

It is bad business to cap how much anyone can make. It has shown to be folly in every instance it is tried. Soviet Russia, Housing, and Gas in the 70's. who are you to decide how much a company should or should not make. Profits of the other party should not come into play when you make decisions for yourself.

My off grid comments were answers to some non sequitor question about what I would do about Enron.

[rugbythug]

Have you ever heated a home on wood alone? I did it last november for more than a month while we were overhauling the hot water heat system. I burned through almost two cords in that time. With 126,000,000 housing units America there would be a brown cloud over our country in a couple weeks.
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html


Besides many cities have air regulations to where you can't even use a fireplace on certain days. On top of that new homes in Denver for example can't even have wood burning fireplaces anymore.

I understand the point you are trying to make but I challenge you to not watch your tv, use your computer, connect to the internet, drive your car, heat your home, or eat food that was delivered to a grocery store.

I suppose you can avoid the consumption of oil if you build your own home in the woods with hand tools, never leave your land, grow all your own food without the use of tractors, and drink well water that uses a windmill you might have a chance. What do you suggest we do with the hundred million or so existing homes in America tied to oil?

Currently my entire house is heated with a wood pellet stove. It has been economical and efficient. I really enjoy it, nice to look at and a warm heat with less dust.

I don't advocate cutting off all oil consumption. I take more than my fair share. However I don't cry conspiracy at other peoples profit margin. A life with less plastic would not be bad. People are so caught up in material goods anymore they are missing out where true happiness is found.

[TailgateNut]

Currently my entire house is heated with a wood pellet stove. It has been economical and efficient. I really enjoy it, nice to look at and a warm heat with less dust.

I don't advocate cutting off all oil consumption. I take more than my fair share. However I don't cry conspiracy at other peoples profit margin. A life with less plastic would not be bad. People are so caught up in material goods anymore they are missing out where true happiness is found.

I guess you propose freezing to death on those "Red Flag Days".

[rugbythug]

LOL you **** , you dont have the balls to do my job , 3 minutes you would be screaming for your mommy ........ But one thing is obvious you turd , your mom Drank , Smoked , Dropped Acid while she was knocked up with your phoney ass ........


I grew up on a farm in Northern Wyoming. I also owned and operated an apiary for 6 years. Please don't pretend to know me, or what I can and can't do.

I will be in Casper tomorrow. On my way back home for a week.

[Spider]

Currently my entire house is heated with a wood pellet stove. It has been economical and efficient. I really enjoy it, nice to look at and a warm heat with less dust.

I don't advocate cutting off all oil consumption. I take more than my fair share. However I don't cry conspiracy at other peoples profit margin. A life with less plastic would not be bad. People are so caught up in material goods anymore they are missing out where true happiness is found.

LOL why am I not shocked . you just dont get it ...... Ripping people off is not a good thing .....what company do you sell tools for , I may want to stay clear of anything you are selling with your attitude ........

[Spider]

I grew up on a farm in Northern Wyoming. I also owned and operated an apiary for 6 years. Please don't pretend to know me, or what I can and can't do.

I will be in Casper tomorrow. On my way back home for a week.

LOL I dont give a damn where you grew up ....... are you suggesting we meet up ?

[rugbythug]

what this dope rugby thug doesnt get is , it all comes full circle , I need the guy in the cubical doing his job , or the guy doing telemarketing doing his job , the more money is being spent , and the more people buy , it is good for everyone ..... what the oil companies are doing is ,Forcing a higher rate on all goods , while taking away more disposable income from the lower and the middle class ..... Meat , produce , canned goods just dont show up in stores on their own ...


What you don't get is your choices actually do make a difference. If you make changes that lower your consumption you save money. This also has the added benefit of lowering demand and ultimately the price. I dislike paying more money for Gas as much as anyone else. The difference is I don't shake my fist at some distant oil company. I take responsibilty for my own consumption.

[rugbythug]

LOL why am I not shocked . you just dont get it ...... Ripping people off is not a good thing .....what company do you sell tools for , I may want to stay clear of anything you are selling with your attitude ........

My point is you are not getting ripped off. Other peoples profit have no bearing on what a good is actually worth.

[Spider]

What you don't get is your choices actually do make a difference. If you make changes that lower your consumption you save money. This also has the added benefit of lowering demand and ultimately the price. I dislike paying more money for Gas as much as anyone else. The difference is I don't shake my fist at some distant oil company. I take responsibilty for my own consumption.

LOL you twit , I drive a truck .. hello Diesel fuel ......

[rugbythug]

LOL I dont give a damn where you grew up ....... are you suggesting we meet up ?

No, just an aside. You told me I can't do what you do. I am just saying I have done as much.

[Spider]

My point is you are not getting ripped off. Other peoples profit have no bearing on what a good is actually worth.

ROFL! ...... if bull**** was music, you would be the brass section ..

[Spider]

No, just an aside. You told me I can't do what you do. I am just saying I have done as much.

are you telling me , you have done what I have done ? think long and hard before you answer

[rugbythug]

LOL you twit , I drive a truck .. hello Diesel fuel ......

Henry Ford once said. "If I would have listened to what people told me they wanted, they would have said faster horses" paraphrased.

My point is if you don't like it, fix it. You are limiting yourself.

[Spider]

Henry Ford once said. "If I would have listened to what people told me they wanted, they would have said faster horses" paraphrased.

My point is if you don't like it, fix it. You are limiting yourself.

ROFL! ..... limiting myself huh .so yo usgeest I quit trucking , well if everyone quit trucking , where would we as a country be ?

[Spider]

are you telling me , you have done what I have done ? think long and hard before you answer

Just to put this in prespective , there was 14 of us up for this load , and 1 guy with a wench truck ( no trailer) , Me and the wench truck was the only ones that took it , the rest didnt want no part of it ....... I do about 90% of the jobs no one else wil do

[rugbythug]

are you telling me , you have done what I have done ? think long and hard before you answer

Not what I said. I said I could do what you do.

[rugbythug]

ROFL! ..... limiting myself huh .so yo usgeest I quit trucking , well if everyone quit trucking , where would we as a country be ?

No quit trucking on Diesel. Someday someone will invent a better way, why not you?

[rugbythug]

Just to put this in prespective , there was 14 of us up for this load , and 1 guy with a wench truck ( no trailer) , Me and the wench truck was the only ones that took it , the rest didnt want no part of it ....... I do about 90% of the jobs no one else wil do

Good for you. That is great. I am being Serious. If you can do what others can't why don't you charge enough that Diesel cost is no longer an Issue. Perhaps you are underestimating your value.

[Spider]

Good for you. That is great. I am being Serious. If you can do what others can't why don't you charge enough that Diesel cost is no longer an Issue. Perhaps you are underestimating your value.

I already do , the problem is I still pay more at the store ......
I got pics of my lastest run in my thread Hello from Cameo .....
2 years ago , I only had 3 kids , things were going along fine , then my wife got pregnant with triplets ,I got 7 people depending on me , so I pay attention to prices , I also pay attention to quality , it does no good for me to run and bye cheap , stuff has to hold up under alot of abuse ;D
Now I make some serious coin , hell I have the internet no matter where I go , a luxury , I have PS2 , 26 inch color TV in my rig , alot of Luxurys , without my family having to sacrafice anything , but not alot of people are in my situation ..... they feel the crunch of the fuel sur charge .....

[rugbythug]

Good for you. And congrats on the Kids. I only have 2 myself. We started later in life. Hopefully I can get one more before time expires. Change is coming with fuel. Whoever is at the forefront is going to be way ahead of the game. I personally Don't think it will be Electric or Biofuel but something. And If you live in Casper, your family should definetly get a Windmill. LOL

[Spider]

Good for you. And congrats on the Kids. I only have 2 myself. We started later in life. Hopefully I can get one more before time expires. Change is coming with fuel. Whoever is at the forefront is going to be way ahead of the game. I personally Don't think it will be Electric or Biofuel but something. And If you live in Casper, your family should definetly get a Windmill. LOL
1 more huh ...havent learned your lesson ;D .... I hope you can have another , I am in my 40's raising 2 year olds .....I wouldnt trade em for anything ;D well on most days anyway .....
LOL no **** on the windmill . the wind is blowing 24/7 here for the last month ...I hope some day a different fuel comes along , alot of problems with Diesel ....

[rugbythug]

Yeah Someday we will all have personal mini-nuke generators. Then the beer will flow like wine. LOL

Later

[Spider]

Yeah Someday we will all have personal mini-nuke generators. Then the beer will flow like wine. LOL

Later

Lates .and be safe comming up here ... for some reason people forgot how to drive .......

[baja]

What you don't get is your choices actually do make a difference. If you make changes that lower your consumption you save money. This also has the added benefit of lowering demand and ultimately the price. I dislike paying more money for Gas as much as anyone else. The difference is I don't shake my fist at some distant oil company. I take responsibilty for my own consumption.

Actually this is correct. We are a nation based on consuming so our real vote is how we spend our dollars, this is our real power.

[alkemical]

Not buying as much gas, will NOT cause prices to go down. Oil doesn't follow the rules of supply and demand so much.

[rugbythug]

Not buying as much gas, will NOT cause prices to go down. Oil doesn't follow the rules of supply and demand so much.

Hard to really tell because demand has never really slacked.

[baja]

It would follow the same laws of supply and demand. If enough people would make choices for using less petroleum products than the price would drop just like any commodity, i do agree that oil is in a special class and would be very difficult for the average American to switch to alternatives but it will become more and more desirable to find ways to do it.

[rugbythug]

It would follow the same laws of supply and demand. If enough people would make choices for using less petroleum products than the price would drop just like any commodity, i do agree that oil is in a special class and would be very difficult for the average American to switch to alternatives but it will become more and more desirable to find ways to do it.

Quoted for truth

[alkemical]

It would follow the same laws of supply and demand. If enough people would make choices for using less petroleum products than the price would drop just like any commodity, i do agree that oil is in a special class and would be very difficult for the average American to switch to alternatives but it will become more and more desirable to find ways to do it.

If less oil is used, price will go up. The Oil cartel's have it by the balls. Well, also if our dollar was stronger the pinch wouldn't hurt so bad either.

[TailgateNut]

If less oil is used, price will go up. The Oil cartel's have it by the balls. Well, also if our dollar was stronger the pinch wouldn't hurt so bad either.


They would do just like Denver water did to their customers a few years ago. They asked their customers to conserve due to the drought and then at the end of the year told them they had to raise prices because of falling revenue.

That'll teach 'em.

[rugbythug]

If less oil is used, price will go up. The Oil cartel's have it by the balls. Well, also if our dollar was stronger the pinch wouldn't hurt so bad either.

If a new technology appeared today that would make everyone have the ability to magically transport without the need of oil. And oil was only used in plastics and such the demand would slack dramatically and Oil companies would go the way of the Typewriter.

[rugbythug]

They would do just like Denver water did to their customers a few years ago. They asked their customers to conserve due to the drought and then at the end of the year told them they had to raise prices because of falling revenue.

That'll teach 'em.

That really happened? Wow. Although they are a Public Utility and more a Gov't Entity so the rules of supply and demand don't actually apply since there is no Comp.

[alkemical]

They would do just like Denver water did to their customers a few years ago. They asked their customers to conserve due to the drought and then at the end of the year told them they had to raise prices because of falling revenue.

That'll teach 'em.

That's exactly what will happen.

[alkemical]

If a new technology appeared today that would make everyone have the ability to magically transport without the need of oil. And oil was only used in plastics and such the demand would slack dramatically and Oil companies would go the way of the Typewriter.

Price would go up for use in plastics, etc - due to all the refinery work to make only a certain product out of the resource.

[rugbythug]

On the long run. Maybe- On the short run you could buy it for nickels. Because of all the extra produced for $100 a barrel prices.

if a million gallons was ready for sale. And plastics needed 100,000 the price would plummet.

[TailgateNut]

That really happened? Wow. Although they are a Public Utility and more a Gov't Entity so the rules of supply and demand don't actually apply since there is no Comp.


Actually Denver Water is the largest PRIVATE employer and owns the most land in Colorado. Soon they will own Colorado.

[baja]

It that a publicly traded stock?

[TailgateNut]

It that a publicly traded stock?

I have yet to figure out the relationship between Denver and Denver Water and vice versa.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

It is bad business to cap how much anyone can make. It has shown to be folly in every instance it is tried. Soviet Russia, Housing, and Gas in the 70's. who are you to decide how much a company should or should not make. Profits of the other party should not come into play when you make decisions for yourself.

If people like you had their way, then, by analogy, the NFL would have no rules and no refs.

We've tried your brand of socioeconomic Darwinism for the past seven years, and the U.S. economy is currently on life support as a result.

[W*GS]

We've tried your brand of socioeconomic Darwinism for the past seven years, and the U.S. economy is currently on life support as a result.

First, the US has not had laissez-faire capitalism for the last 7 years - nor for the last 70.

Secondly, the US economy isn't in the state it's in because of laissez-faire capitalism.

Lastly, you're full of ****. As usual.

[Meck77]

Actually Denver Water is the largest PRIVATE employer and owns the most land in Colorado. Soon they will own Colorado.

Just so happens there was an article in todays RMN about "conservation land".

You might find this interesting nut.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/feb/11/on-colorados-vast-protected-lands-public-access/

[Bronco Bob]

Price would go up for use in plastics, etc - due to all the refinery work to make only a certain product out of the resource.

Some kinds of plastics can be made from soybean oil. So if petroleum got too expensive, more plastic would be made out of soybeans.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

There's W*GS, right on cue with his ivory tower idealogue "we're at war with Eurasia - we've always been at war with Eurasia" (capped off with his usual ad hominem attack.)

After carrying water for Bush and the neocons for the past seven years, he's been reduced to this. :oyvey:

[alkemical]

Some kinds of plastics can be made from soybean oil. So if petroleum got too expensive, more plastic would be made out of soybeans.

It's still (according to some) the fact that Oil is not 'endless' - so the cost would still go up, due to the fact that everday is one day closer to none at all.

[W*GS]

There's W*GS, right on cue with his ivory tower idealogue "we're at war with Eurasia - we've always been at war with Eurasia" (capped off with his usual ad hominem attack.)

You didn't offer any proof or evidence for your statements, and I called you out.

As usual, you'd rather attack me that defend your beliefs.

Come up with a new schtick.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Proof or evidence that we've tried your brand of socioeconomic Darwinism for the past seven years and that the results have been a disaster for our economy?

I guess news travels slowly to W*GS' ivory tower.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

ROFL! ...... if bull**** was music, you would be the brass section ..

Ha! QFT.

This talk of operating costs (gee, lets pay our execs $10-50+ million, spend $4 billion on advertising, etc.) is a canard when the oil companies were operating fine at a third of their current profit margins before Smirk & Sneer.

The usual right-wing snake oil salesmen on this board would have us believe that oil company revenue/profit doubled or tripled and operating costs doubled-tripled concomitantly when there was hardly any increase in production.

It's cost-padding, plain and simple.

[rugbythug]

If people like you had their way, then, by analogy, the NFL would have no rules and no refs.

We've tried your brand of socioeconomic Darwinism for the past seven years, and the U.S. economy is currently on life support as a result.

Your way actually put millions in there graves. Govt control is not the answer.

[rugbythug]

Proof or evidence that we've tried your brand of socioeconomic Darwinism for the past seven years and that the results have been a disaster for our economy?

I guess news travels slowly to W*GS' ivory tower.


I am getting tired of reading your baseless attacks. I get it you think Bush is the Devil, He is Retarded, And a moral choad. He also is brilliant, and controls the entire world behind the scenes.

If your history only goes back 7 years no wonder you are messed up. It took my company 3 years to release one new product. You need to see a longer view of things.

I still don't see why you are worried about other peoples or companies profits. Is it envy? You need to study Economics, what you wish is not new, has been tried and failed miserably.

[W*GS]

Proof or evidence that we've tried your brand of socioeconomic Darwinism for the past seven years and that the results have been a disaster for our economy?

I guess news travels slowly to W*GS' ivory tower.

That's a pathetic dodge.

Many things can be said about Bush's policies; implementing laissez-faire capitalism is not one of them.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Your way actually put millions in there(sic) graves. Govt control is not the answer.

Ah, there's the notorious "liberalism = Stalinism" straw man again.

It looks like W*GS has a new understudy. :D

[Meck77]

You two should just put each other on ignore.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I am getting tired of reading your baseless attacks. I get it you think Bush is the Devil, He is Retarded, And a moral choad. He also is brilliant, and controls the entire world behind the scenes.

If your history only goes back 7 years no wonder you are messed up. It took my company 3 years to release one new product. You need to see a longer view of things.

I still don't see why you are worried about other peoples or companies profits. Is it envy? You need to study Economics, what you wish is not new, has been tried and failed miserably.

:oyvey:

How old are you?

Sixteen?

All you are doing is exhibiting your ignorance and embarrassing yourself more and more with each passing post in your attempts to hang here.

[rugbythug]

It's obvious you have never had any real world business experiance. You have no true concept of business. So instead of acknowledging this you attack me. You have not refuted any points I have made. I came into this specific thread trying to make a point.

1.People control their own life.

You refuse to accept this. Good luck

[rugbythug]

You two should just put each other on ignore.


I am, I had hoped to make a point.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

It's obvious you have never had any real world business experiance. You have no true concept of business.

It's obvious that you are some high school kid who doesn't understand even the most basic concepts or facts re: the topic of discussion on this thread.


You have not refuted any points I have made.


:rofl:

"We're at war with Eurasia - we've always been at war with Eurasia."

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I had hoped to score some points for Team GOP and make daddy proud.

Fixed it for ya. :welcome:

[rugbythug]

Nice your a tool. I would put my resume up against yours whenever you like. Your grasp of economics comes off the back of a cereal box.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Nice your(sic) a tool.

So much for your claims to the high road when it comes to "attacks."


I would put my resume up against yours whenever you like.

Does "G.E.D. in progress" count as a resume?

Under "education" does it read "still trying to understand the difference between 'you're' and 'your'?" :giggle:


Your grasp of economics comes off the back of a cereal box.

Your grasp of practically any topic of discussion on this forum comes from the neocon Kool-Aid box.

[rugbythug]

The problem you are having is trying to combat facts with witty retorts.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The problem you are having is trying to combat facts with witty retorts.

Wake me up when you decide to post an actual fact to support the neocon propaganda you're peddling here.

[rugbythug]

After calling me out as a child. I gave you my true age and some background. I can also back up everything I said. But lets see your resume. Shall we.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The problem you are having is trying to combat facts with witty retorts.

One of the problems you have (one of many, that is) is that seven years of GOP corruption and BushCo treachery have conditioned you to think it's OK to claim you've won something (e.g., a debate, an election, etc.) when you haven't.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

After calling me out as a child. I gave you my true age and some background.

I don't believe your statement about your age and your background.

It sounds like a bullsh*t story.

[rugbythug]

LOL Is this your giving in speech?

[rugbythug]

So I tell you what. I will put up a year Banning that everything I have said about myself is true. I will send spider all documentation he requires. If he finds everything in order, you go away for one year. If not I go.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

LOL Is this your giving in speech?

It's my "I already made mincemeat of your arguments earlier on this thread and everyone can see it" speech.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

So I tell you what. I will put up a year Banning that everything I have said about myself is true. I will send spider all documentation he requires. If he finds everything in order, you go away for one year. If not I go.

What documentation would that be?

And how do we know this "documentation" is really yours?

[rugbythug]

The Bet?

[rugbythug]

you need to accept the bet to know what I will send. Besides Spider will have to trust the sources.

[rugbythug]

Cmon where did you go??

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

you need to accept the bet to know what I will send.

???

What kind of con job is that?

[W*GS]

Ah, there's the notorious "liberalism = Stalinism" straw man again.

And here's LABF trying to cover his far-left extremism by calling it "liberalism" again...

[rugbythug]

???

What kind of con job is that?

So your tactic is now you question my character. Everything I have said is easily backed up. W2 and assessor records can back up everything I have said. It's not Like I have made outrageous claims. You however have skirted the issue, you called me out. I came out, now lets see your resume. Or STFU

[alkemical]

On the long run. Maybe- On the short run you could buy it for nickels. Because of all the extra produced for $100 a barrel prices.

if a million gallons was ready for sale. And plastics needed 100,000 the price would plummet.

The price would still go up, because it's not an infinite resource (according to some). So now, instead of a by-product - you are now refining for only one thing, and it's specialized - the price will not go down.

That's the thing with oil, it won't ever really go down. In some ways i can say that $100/bbl is cheap for all the products and usages come out of a bbl/oil. (Plastics, Wax, Gas/Diesel/Oil/Kerosene, etc). Oil also can be argued it's set and priced by a cartel and not a free-market competition rate.

[Orange_Beard]

http://blip.tv/file/520347

My friend just sent this...
Not sure if it had been posted, seems to go here.

[Spider]

http://blip.tv/file/520347

My friend just sent this...
Not sure if it had been posted, seems to go here.

LOL lock the thread now .........

[TheDave]

http://blip.tv/file/520347

My friend just sent this...
Not sure if it had been posted, seems to go here.

That was well done!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/little-guy.jpg

[24champ]

Well I was planning a spring break road trip out to Vegas and California. However the rising cost of Gas prices have pretty much cancelled the trip. Not gonna spend 400-500 dollars on gas money. F that.

[Orange_Beard]

Diesel in California is $4.19,
How are truckers making any money? Inflation is going to go through the roof.

[24champ]

Diesel in California is $4.19,
How are truckers making any money? Inflation is going to go through the roof.

They aren't, buddy of mine is a trucker and he tells me he just sleeps in his truck and not pay for hotel rooms. They are feeling the pinch big time.

[Spider]

They aren't, buddy of mine is a trucker and he tells me he just sleeps in his truck and not pay for hotel rooms. They are feeling the pinch big time.

yeah he is right ... things are ****ing tough .... i dont have it so bad as other guys , I got computers , internet , PS3 , 32 inch color tv and a big ole bed in my ride , so sleeping in my rig isnt so bad ... but to make money , my break even point is 2,100 miles per week . anything less then that , then money comes out of my pocket .....

[Spider]

Diesel in California is $4.19,
How are truckers making any money? Inflation is going to go through the roof.

actually , you are flipping the cost . you and everyone else . those tax cuts you : ROFL! were gone by week 1 ..... we have what we call a fuel sur charge , most companies have it so high now , you will feel the pinch at the store

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Well I was planning a spring break road trip out to Vegas and California. However the rising cost of Gas prices have pretty much cancelled the trip. Not gonna spend 400-500 dollars on gas money. F that.

http://lh3.google.com/Sauky1/RlWeesuHaaI/AAAAAAAAAVg/5AKDfeHF1Sk/dancart2490.jpg?imgmax=400