Broncos pass defense.

[HEAV]

Well many on here brag about the Broncos scoring defense and only giving up, until the Charger game, and average of 14.6 points a game.

Well stats don't lie. The Broncos are 5th worse in pass defense in the league! Teams complete over 63% of their passes against the Broncos. Broncos are also 24th in pass yardage allowed.

Playing zone and not getting and pass rush will do this to a team. Also the Broncos are 31st in the NFL in 1st downs allowed!

In 2005 the Broncos allowed 56% completion percentage.



Blame Jake, blame the lack on a stud RB, blame Shanny's game plans.

But blame the pass lack of a serious pass rush, a consistent pass rush that forces a QB into a bad throw. Not a pass rush that gets coverage sacks, or having to send LB's, of secodary personal.

Get the QB and you have a better chance at winning!

This defense, just like last year in the AFC title game can't get off the feild. Blame the offnse for not getting long drives, blame Jake for bad passes, blame Rod,Walker, Marshall for drops, blame pplay calling.

But for god's sake look at the defense. Bending and not breaking is broken.

[rbackfactory80]

Yeah, they are as bad as anyone. With the speed out there they shouldn't be. I guess a good way to get Plummer on track would be to send him up against our defense. He would probably shred them.

[Traveler]

Was anyone watching the beginning of the telecast when Madden mentioned his conversation with Shottenheimer? Madden mentioned how Shottenheimer said Denver was a "great tackling team."

I immediately thought, what the hell is he talking about? Is he seeing something we've missed? Then, true to form since the Indy game, the ST and defense lay a huge egg.

Most notably the run near the endzone where Tomlinson was surrounded by four Bronco players, but still somehow breaks free. During that run, not one player tried to wrap up LT.

So yes, the defense is partly to blame in this loss. But playcalling, lack of adjustments, time management, and of course, Jake, deserve the lion's share of the blame for this loss.

[jmz313]

I don't have enough fingers to point at all the problems. At least on D I only have to point one and thats at pass rush / front 4 play.

[Mile High Shack]

it's our terrible defensive coordinator

I don't know what else to say

we hold the Colts to 6 points in the 1st half
we hold the Chargers to 7 points in the 1st half

then the MFn damn breaks open and their offenses go nuts on us

why? plain and simple...coaching.

the offensive coordinators made adjustments and our horrible _efensive coordinator CAN NOT keep up. He is a horrible game day coach...just pathetic. Adjustments at half time are COACHING, not PLAYERS

coaching.....the #1 reason why our defense sucks so bad

[sirhcyennek81]

I dont quite get, why with the speed at CB, why we always play off. Is it any wonder teams complete over 60% of their passes when the DB is 6-8 yards off? Our Corners have to be good tacklers, they get enough practice during the game.

:Broncos:

[shaun514]

it's our terrible defensive coordinator

I don't know what else to say

we hold the Colts to 6 points in the 1st half
we hold the Chargers to 7 points in the 1st half

then the MFn damn breaks open and their offenses go nuts on us

why? plain and simple...coaching.

the offensive coordinators made adjustments and our horrible _efensive coordinator CAN NOT keep up. He is a horrible game day coach...just pathetic. Adjustments at half time are COACHING, not PLAYERS

coaching.....the #1 reason why our defense sucks so bad


Playcalling is overrated. I think some of the problem is that there is not enough beef in the front 7. Smaller, faster guys wear down more quickly than larger players do.

[fontaine]

I dont quite get, why with the speed at CB, why we always play off. Is it any wonder teams complete over 60% of their passes when the DB is 6-8 yards off?

:Broncos:

That's not entirely accurate.

When they line up the CBs like Dwill/Fox sometimes do look like they are lining up 6-8 yards off. But I've noticed that they have "faked" that look and as soon as the ball is snapped they close in and play press coverage. I don't have the percentages but it's not like we're always playing 6-8 yards off.

[shakenbake]

Anytime you need a first down just throw a quick out on Dwill and you got it. He wont even touch the guy.

[NFLBRONCO]

That's not entirely accurate.

When they line up the CBs like Dwill/Fox sometimes do look like they are lining up 6-8 yards off. But I've noticed that they have "faked" that look and as soon as the ball is snapped they close in and play press coverage. I don't have the percentages but it's not like we're always playing 6-8 yards off.

You could be correct but, it sure seems we are 5 yds off wr's when they get they ball alot. Very few times have I seen tight coverage esp DW being played.

[Jason in LA]

Playing zone and not getting and pass rush will do this to a team.




I've been saying that over and over. You can't play zones if you don't have a good pass rush. If the D line can't produce pressure by themselves then the D has to blitz, or the QB will have all day to throw to an open spot on the field. A WR can just curl right between the OLB and MLB. Right in that spot that neither player can get to. And the QB just has to make a simple pass to him. Doesn't have to be a perfect pass. And it's an easy pass when there is no rush in his face.

Last year when it was obvious that there was no pass rush the Broncos went blitz crazy, and it worked until the Steelers game. The Steelers were smart to keep everybody in to block, and Coyer never made the proper adjustments, which he never does.

Well, it's time to go back to those crazy blitzes. Think back to the Raiders game. In the first half there was no blitzing, and the Raiders passing game actually looked good. In the second half the Broncos blitzed a lot and the Raiders passing game looked horrible. Look at the SD game. In the first half, when ever they blitzed they have Rivers a lot of problems. Problem is they rarely blitzed, especially in the second half. And Rivers killed them.

Coyer played it safe and they got beat. He played it safe and allowed Manning to look like the greatest QB ever. When ever he plays it safe the D looks bad. Coyer needs to grow a sack. Take some chances. Try to make something happen. I'd rather the team go down fighting than being passive.

That's two games that the Broncos blew because they were passive on pass D. If the Broncos win both of those games, they are #1 in the conference.

I'm going to be pissed if I see thta same passive D on Thursday. Coyer is doing a disserves to his players by not putting them in a position to make plays.

[Jason in LA]

That's not entirely accurate.

When they line up the CBs like Dwill/Fox sometimes do look like they are lining up 6-8 yards off. But I've noticed that they have "faked" that look and as soon as the ball is snapped they close in and play press coverage. I don't have the percentages but it's not like we're always playing 6-8 yards off.

They do that when their zones calls for them to cover the flats, which is cover 2. They line up like they are going to play deep 3rds, but then come up and jam the WR, then cover the flats.

I normally do not like cover 2, because the safeties have to cover way too much of the field. I don't like the safeties having to cover deep halves. That's how Rod Smith scored on that long bomb against Eugene Robinson in the Super Bowl. Robinson had too much field to cover. The Bucs made cover 2 popular, but people don't understand that it worked because of their pass rush. They got after the QB, and when he tried to dump the ball off on a quick patter to the flats, there was a CB waiting to pick it off. The QBs other option was to go deep, but because he didn't have time to throw a great pass, the safeties were able to rotate over in time.

Without a good pass rush, cover 2 is easily beaten. The middle of the field, and the sidelines between the corner and the safety is wide open.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

You guys need a new secondary coach...maybe someone like David Gibbs. He's turned around our secondary wonderfully this year.

[HEAV]

I say play man to man with the safety help and blitz the Lb's. Our D-Line needed a stud like Abraham. But Shanny thought/thinks cheaper Brownies are better.

Hell he even tried moving Dumerville to DT in camp!

Let the DL rush and the LB's covers, stop the damn coverage fron the DE. On one play dumerville was 15 yards down field! Then Ekunba one on one with LT......?

[sirhcyennek81]

You guys need a new secondary coach...maybe someone like David Gibbs. He's turned around our secondary wonderfully this year.


Uh huh...having Law and Surtain has nothing to do with it. Ass hat.

:Broncos:

[Bob's your Information Minister]

I have been informed many times on this very forum that Law and Surtain are both old and overrated. I was told repeatedly in the offseason that Darrent Williams was a superior corner to both of them.

THANKYOU DAVID "JESUS" GIBBS!

[Barry Ramey]

How many times has the Bronco defense gotten a 3 plays and out series? Not many. Usually if they stop the offense, it's after they've gone at least half the field, so when punting, the offense starts out in bad field position.

The Broncos must either be last or near the bottom of starting field position for the offense. And as I have mentioned before, just how many 80+ yard drives can you expect to get in games, especially 10+ play type drives to score TD's? Sure, against a bad defense, but there aren't that many out there and other than Walker, and one way to score with a long drive is some big, long play either pass or run.

[kamakazi_kal]

I have been informed many times on this very forum that Law and Surtain are both old and overrated. I was told repeatedly in the offseason that Darrent Williams was a superior corner to both of them.

THANKYOU DAVID "JESUS" GIBBS!

sorry but their play is a direct result of the pass rush..........our poor play is also a result of pass rush .....or the lack of rush in our case

[Sassy]

Bending and not breaking is broken.

Gee...but this is Jake's fault too! LOL!

[orangenblue]

Well stats don't lie. The Broncos are 5th worse in pass defense in the league! Teams complete over 63% of their passes against the Broncos. Broncos are also 24th in pass yardage allowed.



Stats do lie. And, they aren't reflective of how good our defense is. If you look at scoring defense we are 4th in the NFL. You might want to take a look at our schedule too. We are playing top notch teams in Pitt, Indy, NE, and SD. All those teams have good offenses.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

sorry but their play is a direct result of the pass rush..........our poor play is also a result of pass rush .....or the lack of rush in our case

ROFL!

Try watching a Chiefs game. Our pass rush isn't as bad as Denver's, but it's not that great, either. Our defensive tackles can't push the pocket. We get good pressure with our ends though, and DJ is a fine pass rusher.

Surtain, Law and Gibbs have made a huge difference. Herm, too. I know you guys hate hearing that Herm has been good for the Chiefs. You all thought he would be the end of us.

[Xenos]

I dont quite get, why with the speed at CB, why we always play off. Is it any wonder teams complete over 60% of their passes when the DB is 6-8 yards off? Our Corners have to be good tacklers, they get enough practice during the game.

:Broncos:

I think that lining up a CB 6-8 yards from the receiver has to do with the running game as well. When a CB is off by that much, he has the ability to defend the pass but also keep an eye on whether it is a running play, and can help in stopping it without having to worry about the WR trying to block him. If the CB is closer, then the WR has a better chance of blocking him out and helping the Rb.

[Jason in LA]

Stats do lie. And, they aren't reflective of how good our defense is. If you look at scoring defense we are 4th in the NFL. You might want to take a look at our schedule too. We are playing top notch teams in Pitt, Indy, NE, and SD. All those teams have good offenses.

When they play great offenses they are giving up a boat load of points. It's not good enough to be great against average to below average offenses.

[Los Broncos]

Other teams just pick on our corners, DW and FW, they need to make a play once in a while, apart from DW int.

[sirhcyennek81]

I have been informed many times on this very forum that Law and Surtain are both old and overrated. I was told repeatedly in the offseason that Darrent Williams was a superior corner to both of them.

THANKYOU DAVID "JESUS" GIBBS!


Considering Dwill is younger, and faster then Law or Surtain ever were, yes, he is the superior corner. KC has solid DB's...on the downside of their careers.

:Broncos:

[Taco John]

On the other hand, we've given up only 8 TDs this season against the pass, putting us at third in the league there, behind only New England and Chicago, who both have given up only 7 passing TDs.

[Popps]

The biggest shame about this whole thing is that we finally got a couple of good CBs and we're just absolutely wasting them. Either sitting them in zones, playing them 10 yards off guys or asking them to cover people for 9 seconds because of no pass rush.

It's been this way for Y E A R S, folks. We're **** against the pass EVERY YEAR. Teams can line up and throw against us at will EVERY YEAR.

The Broncos are like one of those pictures with a bunch of dots that you stare at long enough... and eventually see a dolphin. Only, in this case.... you eventually see beyond the quarterback position and see a melt-down defense that has been holding us back for a decade.

[Popps]

Again, you've got to judge this defense by what they do against powerful offenses, because those are the tests that matter. This year, that would be Indy and San Diego.

Result? Complete failure. Same as last year when we met high powered offenses... same as the prior years.

No wonder Shanahan drafted a blue chip QB. We'll need to score 50 points a game to ever win a Superbowl.

[sirhcyennek81]

Again, you've got to judge this defense by what they do against powerful offenses, because those are the tests that matter. This year, that would be Indy and San Diego.

Result? Complete failure. Same as last year when we met high powered offenses... same as the prior years.

No wonder Shanahan drafted a blue chip QB. We'll need to score 50 points a game to ever win a Superbowl.


We held those offenses to 13 points in the first half of those two games. We never adjusted in the second half. That unfortunately, is on the coaching staff.

:Broncos:

[Taco John]

Again, you've got to judge this defense by what they do against powerful offenses, because those are the tests that matter. This year, that would be Indy and San Diego.

Result? Complete failure. Same as last year when we met high powered offenses... same as the prior years.

No wonder Shanahan drafted a blue chip QB. We'll need to score 50 points a game to ever win a Superbowl.



Actually, I judge the defense by wins that they've delivered this season, which is just about all of them. Do we have problems? Absolutely. But we're a team that builds while on the run, and sometimes that means using some putty to patch a problem. That putty the last time around was the Cleveland Browns defensive line. And for going bust in Cleveland, they've given us a decent enough rotation here, though not stellar.

We've got a great group of CBs who will benefit from an improved pass rush. We're on the path. And there isn't a game that we've lost this year that couldn't have been salvaged with some good old fasioned offensive efficiency. Seems to be working for the two of the three best teams in the league.

The glass is half full.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Actually, I judge the defense by wins that they've delivered this season, which is just about all of them.

All of them except for the two matchups that will mean the most in separating the top two seeds in the playoffs from the wild card slots.

[Popps]

The glass is half full.

I agree with that. We just need to fill it up.

It's freaking criminal to waste guys like Wilson, Bailey and Lynch because you cant' stick some talented players up front, or construct a scheme to maximize what you have.

Champ Bailey had better goddamned not retire without a ring.

[Taco John]

All of them except for the two matchups that will mean the most in separating the top two seeds in the playoffs from the wild card slots.


It was the same story during our first Superbowl win. The same exact story. Our defense was getting blasted all season long for giving up a lot of points. The difference: our offense had the ability to stem the tide and step on their throats.

And then when we got to the playoffs, our defense played over their heads like men possessed.

[orangenblue]

I agree with that. We just need to fill it up.

It's freaking criminal to waste guys like Wilson, Bailey and Lynch because you cant' stick some talented players up front, or construct a scheme to maximize what you have.

Champ Bailey had better goddamned not retire without a ring.

No kidding. We just need a couple of safeties and we will be good on defense again next season. Thank god we have a good core coming back.

[epicSocialism4tw]

It was the same story during our first Superbowl win. The same exact story. Our defense was getting blasted all season long for giving up a lot of points. The difference: our offense had the ability to stem the tide and step on their throats.

And then when we got to the playoffs, our defense played over their heads like men possessed.

This is where our fundamental disagreement lies. You see the SB era teams as a barometer for this one, when they are built to accomplish different things over the course of the game.

You see success in an offense that can march up and down the field at will. You see the hub of that offense as John Elway. That is true in a sense for that era's great teams, but when you look at the team now, you see a completely different animal.

Not only was Elway great, but that offensive line was absolutely filthy. They were DOMINANT in capital letters. The Oline could control the LOS against anyone. Not only were they dominant, but Terrell freakin' Davis was destroying teams. Our offensive line today is nowhere near as talented and complete as that one was. Zim, Schlereth, Jones, Nalen, Habib, and Shannon Sharpe blocking...that is probably the greatest OL of all-time.

Our run game was one of the greatest in NFL history, and that run game was the successful element of the offense that opened up things for everyone else. When you look at the skill positions on the SB offense, you see a team that is far superior at every spot. McCaffery/Smith, Shannon Sharpe (only the greatest TE ever), Howard Griffith, TD, Elway, etc. alls suited up. Only Javon Walker can hold a candle to any of those players.

[Taco John]

This is where our fundamental disagreement lies. You see the SB era teams as a barometer for this one, when they are built to accomplish different things over the course of the game.


Actually, no I don't. But thanks for telling me what I'm thinking.

[Taco John]

You see success in an offense that can march up and down the field at will. You see the hub of that offense as John Elway. That is true in a sense for that era's great teams, but when you look at the team now, you see a completely different animal.


Why in the world are you in the business of telling me what I'm thinking? You're completely off base and couldn't be more wrong.

I see the hub of our Superbowl offense being Mike Shanahan. After that I see the offensive line, and especially our left tackle as the most crucial spokes. After that, I see Terrell Davis and Howard Griffith as the next most important pieces. I've been calling for a HGriff style fullback ever since we lost Griff. Certainly Elway factors in as a pretty sturdy spoke in the wheel, but I see our running game as the key to success, and that starts up front.

Regardless of that, if Elway wasn't capbable of making teams pay for trying to stop our running game, we'd have been what we are now. It used to be that big plays would just happen as a matter of course. Now we have to meticulously plan for the big play (ie. carefully set up the play action) and if Jake misses it, we're SOL until we can get the defense to bite again.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Actually, no I don't. But thanks for telling me what I'm thinking.

Here's your post again:

Originally Posted by Taco John
It was the same story during our first Superbowl win. The same exact story. Our defense was getting blasted all season long for giving up a lot of points. The difference: our offense had the ability to stem the tide and step on their throats.

And then when we got to the playoffs, our defense played over their heads like men possessed.

You just suggested that this team needs to finish games and finish the season in the same fashion that the SB era teams did. Your words, not mine.

You dont think that your position on this issue is painfully obvious on this board?

[Popps]

This is where our fundamental disagreement lies. You see the SB era teams as a barometer for this one, when they are built to accomplish different things over the course of the game.

You see success in an offense that can march up and down the field at will. You see the hub of that offense as John Elway. That is true in a sense for that era's great teams, but when you look at the team now, you see a completely different animal.

Not only was Elway great, but that offensive line was absolutely filthy. They were DOMINANT in capital letters. The Oline could control the LOS against anyone. Not only were they dominant, but Terrell freakin' Davis was destroying teams. Our offensive line today is nowhere near as talented and complete as that one was. Zim, Schlereth, Jones, Nalen, Habib, and Shannon Sharpe blocking...that is probably the greatest OL of all-time.

Our run game was one of the greatest in NFL history, and that run game was the successful element of the offense that opened up things for everyone else. When you look at the skill positions on the SB offense, you see a team that is far superior at every spot. McCaffery/Smith, Shannon Sharpe (only the greatest TE ever), Howard Griffith, TD, Elway, etc. alls suited up. Only Javon Walker can hold a candle to any of those players.


Beyond that, don't let anyone tell you that the dense was "average," either.

Our SB defense allowed an average of like 14.5 points a game and 53 ypg rushing over ALL of the playoff games, combined. I'm pretty confident that's got to be up there with the best performances of all time, given a two year playoff run.

We had a dominant front four, play-makers everywhere and a coordinator who was creative and took a ton of chances to maximize the potential of the talent.

Our defense may not have been stronger than the offense, but they were championship caliber. We won a 14-10 game to get IN to the Superbowl. Can you imagine if our offense only scored 14 points in a playoff game these days? We'd lose by 100.

[HEAV]

It was the same story during our first Superbowl win. The same exact story. Our defense was getting blasted all season long for giving up a lot of points. The difference: our offense had the ability to stem the tide and step on their throats.

And then when we got to the playoffs, our defense played over their heads like men possessed.


Compare to the Broncos defense of today, that get's owned in the playoff's?

The SuperBowl team had a pass rusher "Alfie Williams" and freaking Neil Smith!

You BS is amazing.

[HEAV]

Now Fergy is out the remainder of the year also. Even more passes are coming this teams way!

[epicSocialism4tw]

[QUOTE]I see the hub of our Superbowl offense being Mike Shanahan. After that I see the offensive line, and especially our left tackle as the most crucial spokes.

That we agree on. They were able to control the opposing defense at will, especially when they needed to execute to win. Today's Bronco line is only a shadow of what it once was, and that's why this offense will not be anywhere close to as effective as the SB era teams until better players are brought in. The situation only becomes worse ase time goes on and we lose Nalen. Lepsis aint no Zimmerman.

After that, I see Terrell Davis and Howard Griffith as the next most important pieces. I've been calling for a HGriff style fullback ever since we lost Griff.

I think that Johnson can do pretty close to what Griffith did, but he doesnt have the OL in front of him plowing lanes so that he can square up and smack a linebacker or safety. That OL made things easier for everybody on the team, including Shanahan.

Certainly Elway factors in as a pretty sturdy spoke in the wheel, but I see our running game as the key to success, and that starts up front.

This is why I see no benefit in starting Cutler. The success depends on the run game execution.

Regardless of that, if Elway wasn't capbable of making teams pay for trying to stop our running game, we'd have been what we are now.

And here we have a comparison of Jake Plummer to the greatest QB of all-time. Even in his twilight, Elway was better than most. Elway's greatest attribute was his ability to make something out of nothing, and to "make plays". 2 or 3 of the QB's in the NFL today can execute the offense like Elway did in the SB years. That's it.

It used to be that big plays would just happen as a matter of course. Now we have to meticulously plan for the big play (ie. carefully set up the play action) and if Jake misses it, we're SOL until we can get the defense to bite again.

That's what happens when you dont have the players in the trenches that you need. The OL is the most important place on the field.

[HEAV]

Basically what TJ wants the Broncos to be is the Rams of 99-00 and out score teams.

Only to get owned by the Pats defense in 2001.

Where I would prefer the Broncos to be more like the Ravens and force teams into quiting, by beating the living hell out of their offense and forcing mistakes and turnovers.

This defense won the close games early in the year. But now it's week 11 and teams offense's are getting it together.

Before you spout off about "See our Offense isn't gettign together" Let's remember Shanny is playing games with the RB's and the O-line (like benching your love child Foster). Not to mention the total lack of production from the TE spot has been huge!

[bombquixote]

Shanny should switch Jake to safety, a la Jarius Jackson. That would fix the offense and defense both!

[Taco John]

Basically what TJ wants the Broncos to be is the Rams of 99-00 and out score teams.


Actually, I just want an effective team, however you want to slice it. I think our biggest weakness right now is a quarterback who is ranked last in the league among starting quarterbacks. I don't think that's the entire scope of our problems, but I think if we fix that problem, we'll start to get a feel for who our team really is, and can make adjustments accordingly.

I think we're wasting our time with Plummer. I don't have any faith in him, and why should I? I have faith in our running game. I have faith in our defense. Plummer? None. And just when he starts to build some, he comes out the next game and completely demolishes it.

[Taco John]

Beyond that, don't let anyone tell you that the dense was "average," either.



They were average... up until the playoffs when they turned it on like nobody could believe. People were starting to call for Greg Robinson's head after the Pittsburgh loss. Then the San Francisco loss made it worse and people started to predict a first round playoff exit to the Chiefs in Arrowhead.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY saw our defense coming. Not you. Not me. Nobody saw it. They came out of nowhere.

[Popps]

They were average... up until the playoffs when they turned it on like nobody could believe. .


Hilarious!

The dictionary definition of: Opening your mouth and removing all doubt.

Stuff like that honestly makes me wonder if you were even watching the sport back then. Seriously. That's impressive.

[Taco John]

Hilarious!

The dictionary definition of: Opening your mouth and removing all doubt.

Stuff like that honestly makes me wonder if you were even watching the sport back then. Seriously. That's impressive.


There's no doubt I was watching the sport. I just don't need to revise history to make my points like you do.

I've done it before and you ignored the evidence... So I don't know why I'll do it again, other than to remind people once again how full of it you actually are on this point. But after the bye week that year, our defense was troublesome, and people were worried. Nobody went into that playoffs comfortable with our defense, even if you've forgotten that.

Here's why:

Week 8 - We come out of our bye and lose 28-25 to the Oakland Raiders. The Raiders scored a touchdown every quarter, including two Jeff George touchdowns -- and the worst part of that defense: one 83 yard Napoleon Kaufmann scamper to the house. Our defense that year was prone to the big play, especially on the ground, though our gambling corners gave up plenty of big passes. Especially Darrien Gordon. Other people will remember this, even if you choose to ignore it.

Four of our next 6 opponents scored at least 20 points, but the real heartbreaker came against KC in week 12, when our defense went into prevent and allowed KC to march down the field to steal a game clinching field goal that robbed us of the division title.

After that we throttled the hapless Raiders, but our defense went in the tank. We gave up 28 points to San Diego (but won because we scored 38). The next week, we gave up 35 points to the Pittsburgh Steelers, in one of the most gut wrenching losses I can remember as a Broncos fan. That was a kick to the balls, because our defense was giving up over 5 yards per rush, and gave up HUGE plays. A 33 yard touchdown from Kordell to Thigpen. A 69 yard pass on the same connection. a 21 yard pass - same connection. Thigpen and Kordell OWNED us that day. And to top it off, Kordell ran in two goal line touchdowns himself. Broncos fans were livid, and Greg Robinson's head was being called for on a silver platter.

It only got worse from there. The next week, we gave up 34 points to the San Francisco 49ers, in a devestating loss where we only scored 17 points. San Fran didn't bother rushing on us that day. Steve Young just kept throwing intermediate and short routes again and again. He had a 7.4 yard average, and people were livid that we were playing off the receivers and not breaking up the short routes (sound familiar?). In the end, it wasn't even the defense that screwed us-- Elway threw a 55 yard interception to Merton Hanks, and Kevin Green rumbled for 40 yards and a score after a fumble. But that didn't stop people from calling for Greg's head. Broncos fans were demoralized from watching Steve Young pick the defense apart.

Finally, the next week was the last week of the season, and our defense put up a dominating game against the Chargers, but few were impressed because the Chargers were already on a 7 game losing streak and had nothing to play for. In fact, Shanahan handed the game planning for that one over to Kubiak while he studied playoff teams and prepared for the playoffs.

In any event, people were amazed at the turn-around our defense made in the playoffs. It was a delight. I remember people being proud to see that the defense was finally stepping up, and loved the fact that the KC game ended on a defensive play.

Our defense stepped up BIG TIME in the playoffs. Nobody called it. Nobody could have. The way the Broncos played the Steelers and the Niners, everyone was dreading the worst, especially since we had to go on the road for the entire thing. That's not to say there wasn't a fair amount of confidence and hope: Elway was still on the team, and nobody gave up when Elway was around. But there was a lot of dread about how our defense would perform going into that post season.

[bpc]

I'm with Popps on the theory of this defense. It has been highly overated for most of the season and exposed when we needed them the most.

Hopefully we can get back to playing ball similar to that of the first couple weeks. We need them to actually hold a lead now.

[Taco John]

We don't have the horses up front on defense to allow the offense to coast on a lead. We can't put all the pressure on the defense against the best in the league. We need a full team effort from all phases, including the passing game.

[Popps]

Taco, just quit while you're way, way behind. It's nice that you and a few people were complaining about the defense on a message board. Unfortunately, that doesn't really re-write football history...

The Broncos ranked in the NFL’s top 10 in total defense during three of Robinson’s six seasons at the club’s defensive helm, finishing seventh in ‘99 (297.1 ypg), fifth in ‘97 (291.9 ypg) and fourth in ‘96 (279.4 ypg). Denver’s defenses produced three top 10 rankings in scoring defense - eighth in ‘98 (19.3 ppg), sixth in ‘97 (17.9 ppg) and seventh in ‘96 (17.2 ppg). The team’s pass defense ranked among the league’s top 10 in four of his six seasons with Denver finishing eighth in ‘99 (188.5 ypg), fifth in ‘97 (179.3 ypg), 10th in ‘96 (196.2 ypg) and ninth in ‘95 (206.1 ypg). Denver’s run defense ranked in the league’s top 10 three times during Robinson’s tenure. Denver led the NFL in run defense in 1997 (83.2 ypg.) and ranked third in 1998 (80.4 ypg).

The performance of Robinson’s defense throughout the ‘98 playoffs was paramount to Denver’s quest for a second straight title. The Broncos allowed opponents just 53.0 rushing yards per game in the postseason and forced a remarkable 13 turnovers in just three games. Denver allowed only 25 total points during that stretch.

So, let's re-cap...

-Top ten rankings for points allowed in 96 and 97 (regular season)
-Top ten rankings against the pass in 96 and 97(regular season)
-Top ten rankings against the run in 96 and 97(regular season)

-14.5 ppg allowed in the playoffs (playoffs)
-13 forced turnovers (playoffs)
-53 yds rushing per game allowed (playoffs)

Need more?

Neil Smith: 6 Pro Bowls including 1997
Bill Romanowski: Two Pro Bowls including 96 and 98
Alfred Williams: Pro Bowl 96
Steve Atwater: Future Hall of Famer, 8 Pro Bowls including 98
John Mobley: All-pro, 1997



So, once again... the facts don't jive with your opinion. Measure that defense through stats, they were great. Measure them through individual players, they were great. Measure them through performances IN BIG GAMES (the most important, imo) and they were BEYOND great.

Then again, I did forget the crucial yardstick: What you and some dip****s were saying on a message board 10 years ago.

We all know nothing spells out the facts like internet message board dudes saying stuff.

ROFL!


Just stop, dude.

Actually... keep it up. Your posts on this are like watching an episode of COPS. So bad and embarrassing, you want to turn your head... but can't.

[fontaine]

I'm with Popps on the theory of this defense. It has been highly overated for most of the season and exposed when we needed them the most.

Hopefully we can get back to playing ball similar to that of the first couple weeks. We need them to actually hold a lead now.

One of the worst things about the Plummer/Defense discussions is that we're simply ignoring the dynamics of a balanced football.

New England 35 Green Bay 0.

Does anyone honestly believe that the Patriots can continue to score 35 points every game, or the D can now post shut outs the rest of the season?

There's a REASON why every HC in the league craves a balanced team. If you're offense executes, then it makes it easier on the D who can play to their strengths. When the D executes if makes it easier on the offense.

That's why New England succeeded both on O and D.

And it's why we've struggled against the Chargers. You can't just put the game on the D and expect them to win it all when the Passing Offense/ST is busy twiddling their thumbs. That may work against the hapless Raiders but not good quality football clubs.

Yes our Defense has choked in two games. But we are still a solid Defense against most teams when it comes to stopping them scoring. But we're not going on a 4 game playoff/SuperBowl run while the D carries the load and the passing offense/ST suck.

[BroncoBuff]

It's freaking criminal to waste guys like Wilson, Bailey and Lynch because you cant' stick some talented players up front, or construct a scheme to maximize what you have.

The weird part is - our pass rush is better this year than either of the last two. For heaven's sake, Anton Palepoi was our 2nd-best pass rusher in '04.

This might sound odd - it's totally counter to my usual line of reasoning - but I think we might be tipping off our blitz packages somehow. Either that, or it's a run of bad luck. So very very often I see Broncois blitzers come on the wrong side of the formation, get picked up by a back, or just get screened away by the pocket. I wouldn't normally say "luck" has anything to do with anything .... but there's a lotta Broncos blitzes that seem to be met by the perfect offensive play call this year.

[Popps]

The weird part is - our pass rush is better this year than either of the last two. For heaven's sake, Anton Palepoi was our 2nd-best pass rusher in '04.

This might sound odd - it's totally counter to my usual line of reasoning - but I think we might be tipping off our blitz packages somehow. Either that, or it's a run of bad luck. So very very often I see Broncois blitzers come on the wrong side of the formation, get picked up by a back, or just get screened away by the pocket. I wouldn't normally say "luck" has anything to do with anything .... but there's a lotta Broncos blitzes that seem to be met by the perfect offensive play call this year.

You're right... we're putting up better sack numbers, and that's shown, to some extent. But, it's still not a consist pocket push, and this year... we're actually showing more susceptibility to teams running successfully on us.

You also make a great point about the blitzes. In the Rams game... the Chargers game and a few other times, we've seen our blitzes met with the PERFECT call. Is that luck, or like you said... have teams figured out Coyer?

I think it's a number of factors, as things usually are in this game. We all know the front four is sub-par by now... and I think there's growing unrest with Coyer.

We're padding our stats against Oakland and Cleveland... and getting waxed by real offenses like Indy and SD. That's a long running theme, and those teams usually tear us up with the pass.

[Rock Chalk]

On the other hand, we've given up only 8 TDs this season against the pass, putting us at third in the league there, behind only New England and Chicago, who both have given up only 7 passing TDs.

Its not about scoring defense moron. Its about field position.

If they are punting because we bent but didnt break between the 40s, we are starting inside our own 10 yard line (btw, our offense has started more drives inside our own 10 yard line than any team in the league).

Like Jason said, how many 80-90+ yard TD drives can you expect from even the most potent offenses? Unless of course, said potent offense is playing Denver's defense which is absolutely in shambles when they face POTENT OFFENSES.

Pitt with 6 turnovers managed to score 20 points on our vaunted Defense. Indy, 34 in our house. SD, 35 in our house. Were we to play Chicago, they could beat us with a typical 6 turnover game.

Our defense is unable to get off the field by making big plays when they matter most for the majority of games putting our offense in bad spots. Conversely, our offense, even when it is given a good chance at success, has done the same to our defense.

Jake is to blame for offensive woe's, Coyer to blame for defensive ineptitude. Its not about executiton, its about scheme and Coyer's second half adjustments are piss ****ing poor and have cost this team TWO games this year. Giving up 28 points in a half is ****ing pathetic for ANY defense, much less a "great' one like we are supposed to have.

[Mile High Shack]

The weird part is - our pass rush is better this year than either of the last two. For heaven's sake, Anton Palepoi was our 2nd-best pass rusher in '04.

This might sound odd - it's totally counter to my usual line of reasoning - but I think we might be tipping off our blitz packages somehow. Either that, or it's a run of bad luck. So very very often I see Broncois blitzers come on the wrong side of the formation, get picked up by a back, or just get screened away by the pocket. I wouldn't normally say "luck" has anything to do with anything .... but there's a lotta Broncos blitzes that seem to be met by the perfect offensive play call this year.

one name

Larry Coyer...that says it all

[GonzoLays]

If we played the 98-99 Broncos today, we would be a 14 pt underdog.

Checkout how much talent you have to have to win a Super Bowl:

QB John Elway >>>> Jake Plummer
RB Terrel Davis >>>> Bells
FB Howard Griffith >>>>> Kyle Johnson
TE Shannon Sharpe>>>>>>>>Stephen Alexander
WR Eddie McCaffery = Javon Walker
WR Young Rod Smith >>>>>>>>>>>> Old Rod Smith
Offensive Line >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Offensive line

The defense back in 98 had a dominant front four with Pryce racking up 12 sacks a season at DT, Keith Traylor (who is still playing!), Smith and Williams. LB's were solid and so was the secondary.

That 98 team featured 10 players worthy of the hall of fame:

Elway
Davis
Sharpe
Smith
Zimmerman
Nalen
Smith
Atwater
Romo
Elam

How many hall of fame type of players are performing on this squad? 2? 3?

It's not even close, if you have to be as good as the 98-99 Broncos to win Super Bowls, this team does not stand a chance.

[broncsyanks]

i think i will never forget ebenezer ekuban covering LT on that dump pass for a TD in the 3rd quater. larry coyer hell of a job. i can see that matchup all day.

[Mediator12]

I finally get it. I have always wondered how everyone goes after the DC when the defense plays like crap and not the defensive players who screw up. He is the scapegoat when the whole defense flat out sucks and the players get all the glory for their good perfromnces without any of the blame when they execute poorly. That is some really pathetic analysis.

Analysis takes effort, not emotion. It is easy to get emotional on the things that are easy to see. It is easy to see passes that are not on target and blame the QB. It is easy to see the RB miss the wide open hole. It is easy to see that there were no rollouts or bootlegs called in the game. It is easy to see if the defense blitzes or not. It is easy to see if the pass rush is ineffective. It is easy to see missed tackles.

What is overlooked is that which is not easily seen in the play designs. What is not easy to see is who is covering a WR in Zone coverages. What is not easy to see is blown coverages. What is not easy to see is DL getting blown up on the edges and giving up leverage on running plays on the weak side. What is not easy to see is the front four getting blown off the ball on running plays and having the LB's and Safeties have to make every tackle in the running game. What is not easy to see is guys getting blown up on the blitz because they are not skilled enough or good enough blitzers to beat extra pass blockers. These are players not executing the play and playcalling will never fix these things. The only way to fix those things is to beat the guy in front of you consistently, something this defense has struggled to do up front.

Larry Coyer is the easy target for most of you. He is in charge of the defense when they get their ass kicked by superior offenses because of no DL execution. He gets no credit when they dominate teams and allow less than ten points a game for most of the games this year. This defense has four or five guys that are going to win the battle against the man they go up against every play. Bailey, Lynch, Wilson, Gold, and sometimes DJ Wiliams. Most elite defenses have 6-7 guys who are going to win those battles and at least two on the DL in a 4-3 look.

I have said all along how well the team has smoke and mirrored the DL so the back seven can make plays. Well, you have now seen the results when they can no longer play well when the DL gets abused against teams that can execute like INDY, SD, and even PIT occasionally.

Coyer has been blamed incessantly for not mixing it up more and not blitzing enough and then he brings a blitz on a play perfectly designed against it and everyone is quick to criticize in hindsight. Never mind you were probably yelling blitz pre snap since the pass rush was not getting anywhere near Rivers without extra help. Never mind that is the first TD scored against them outside 21 yards all year. Did that play suck and would Coyer probably like to have it back? I certainly think so. However, it was the first big play TD surrendered in 10 games outside 21 yards and Denver still led 24-21.

What is unacceptable is the effort the Defense failed to produce from that play on. They flat out quit for the most part and allowed 14 more points without ever winning a play from there on out. They deserve to be ridiculed and the defensive staff should be ashamed as well. Someone needs to kick those guys that quit and hold them responsible.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I finally get it. I have always wondered how everyone goes after the DC when the defense plays like crap and not the defensive players who screw up. He is the scapegoat when the whole defense flat out sucks and the players get all the glory for their good perfromnces without any of the blame when they execute poorly. That is some really pathetic analysis.

Analysis takes effort, not emotion. It is easy to get emotional on the things that are easy to see. It is easy to see passes that are not on target and blame the QB. It is easy to see the RB miss the wide open hole. It is easy to see that there were no rollouts or bootlegs called in the game. It is easy to see if the defense blitzes or not. It is easy to see if the pass rush is ineffective. It is easy to see missed tackles.

What is overlooked is that which is not easily seen in the play designs. What is not easy to see is who is covering a WR in Zone coverages. What is not easy to see is blown coverages. What is not easy to see is DL getting blown up on the edges and giving up leverage on running plays on the weak side. What is not easy to see is the front four getting blown off the ball on running plays and having the LB's and Safeties have to make every tackle in the running game. What is not easy to see is guys getting blown up on the blitz because they are not skilled enough or good enough blitzers to beat extra pass blockers. These are players not executing the play and playcalling will never fix these things. The only way to fix those things is to beat the guy in front of you consistently, something this defense has struggled to do up front.

Larry Coyer is the easy target for most of you. He is in charge of the defense when they get their ass kicked by superior offenses because of no DL execution. He gets no credit when they dominate teams and allow less than ten points a game for most of the games this year. This defense has four or five guys that are going to win the battle against the man they go up against every play. Bailey, Lynch, Wilson, Gold, and sometimes DJ Wiliams. Most elite defenses have 6-7 guys who are going to win those battles and at least two on the DL in a 4-3 look.

I have said all along how well the team has smoke and mirrored the DL so the back seven can make plays. Well, you have now seen the results when they can no longer play well when the DL gets abused against teams that can execute like INDY, SD, and even PIT occasionally.

Coyer has been blamed incessantly for not mixing it up more and not blitzing enough and then he brings a blitz on a play perfectly designed against it and everyone is quick to criticize in hindsight. Never mind you were probably yelling blitz pre snap since the pass rush was not getting anywhere near Rivers without extra help. Never mind that is the first TD scored against them outside 21 yards all year. Did that play suck and would Coyer probably like to have it back? I certainly think so. However, it was the first big play TD surrendered in 10 games outside 21 yards and Denver still led 24-21.

What is unacceptable is the effort the Defense failed to produce from that play on. They flat out quit for the most part and allowed 14 more points without ever winning a play from there on out. They deserve to be ridiculed and the defensive staff should be ashamed as well. Someone needs to kick those guys that quit and hold them responsible.


Until this defense gets at least one dominant DL player who can execute a gameplan, it will not win tough games.

[RMANCIL]

i think i will never forget ebenezer ekuban covering LT on that dump pass for a TD in the 3rd quater. larry coyer hell of a job. i can see that matchup all day.

Hey live by the sword die by it.

You just can't blitz all day and not get burnt.

[cdesignmaster]

So yes, the defense is partly to blame in this loss. But playcalling, lack of adjustments, time management, and of course, Jake, deserve the lion's share of the blame for this loss.

Reminder, 24-7 in the 3rd quarter and lose. How is the defense NOT to blame for the "lion's" share for the loss?

[Taco John]

Taco, just quit while you're way, way behind. It's nice that you and a few people were complaining about the defense on a message board. Unfortunately, that doesn't really re-write football history...




The only person re-writing football history here is you. Broncos fans were uneasy with the defense going into that playoff situation, and rightly so, especially as a wild card. You can regurgitate stats all you want, it doesn't change a thing about the way the fans felt about the situation at the time.

[Popps]

The only person re-writing football history here is you. Broncos fans were uneasy with the defense going into that playoff situation, and rightly so, especially as a wild card. You can regurgitate stats all you want, it doesn't change a thing about the way the fans felt about the situation at the time.

Once again, by ANY yardstick, you're full of ****.

-Points allowed
-Rank against the pass
-Rank against the run
-Wins
-Performance in big games and playoffs
-Individual player achievements

ANY of those stats give the answer. Those are facts. You and your buddy yipping on a message board are not.

I'll repeat.... by ANY POSSIBLE MEANS OF MEASURING A SQUAD'S PERFORMANCE.... that defense was great.

Please... keep repeating about how you had a bad dream, or a premonition ... or how someone here posted something, etc.

But, forgive some of us if we want to base our analysis on factual information.

It's sad that you're so misguided you'd need to **** on our Supebowl team to support whatever hair-brained notion you're pushing.

[-Slap-]

Compare to the Broncos defense of today, that get's owned in the playoff's?

The SuperBowl team had a pass rusher "Alfie Williams" and freaking Neil Smith!

You BS is amazing.

We were led in sacks by undrafted street free agent Maa Tanuvasa in 1998. Alfred Williams was basically done, he chipped in 3 sacks before recurring triceps problems ended his career. Neil Smith totaled 4 sacks all season.

You want to know why that team was special? It incredible anybody should have to explain it.

John Elway - Hall of Famer
Shannon Sharpe - Future Hall of Famer
Terrell Davis - Future Hall of Famer
Gary Zimmerman - Future Hall of Famer
Rod Smith - Strong Hall of Fame Candidate.

How many Hall of Famers off the 98 Broncos defense?

Steve Atwater and Neil Smith will get some votes, but they were both shadows of their former selves by that time.

Why the incredible need to distort history to try and prove a point? Don't you realize we were all there, too?

[Play2win]

The superbowl years were all about our Oline, Terrell Davis, and the Omnipresence of John Elway.

[HEAV]

We were led in sacks by undrafted street free agent Maa Tanuvasa in 1998. Alfred Williams was basically done, he chipped in 3 sacks before recurring triceps problems ended his career. Neil Smith totaled 4 sacks all season.

You want to know why that team was special? It incredible anybody should have to explain it.

John Elway - Hall of Famer
Shannon Sharpe - Future Hall of Famer
Terrell Davis - Future Hall of Famer
Gary Zimmerman - Future Hall of Famer
Rod Smith - Strong Hall of Fame Candidate.

How many Hall of Famers off the 98 Broncos defense?

Steve Atwater and Neil Smith will get some votes, but they were both shadows of their former selves by that time.

Why the incredible need to distort history to try and prove a point? Don't you realize we were all there, too?



No distortion Slap.

http://www.databasefootball.com/teams/teamyear.htm?tm=DEN&lg=nfl&yr=1997


Do your homework before you type and look stupid again.



P.S. TJ was talking about the 97 team. Reading and comprehending are two different things.

[Cito Pelon]

. . . . . .Let the DL rush and the LB's covers, stop the damn coverage fron the DE. On one play dumerville was 15 yards down field! Then Ekunba one on one with LT......?

The LB's can't cover worth a damn. What's Coyer supposed to do with these guys in pass D? Wilson, Gold and DJ are just plain awful in the passing game. Those three have 3 INT's total in the past three years, and teams have been passing like crazy during that time.

[Willynowei]

I finally get it. I have always wondered how everyone goes after the DC when the defense plays like crap and not the defensive players who screw up. He is the scapegoat when the whole defense flat out sucks and the players get all the glory for their good perfromnces without any of the blame when they execute poorly. That is some really pathetic analysis.

Analysis takes effort, not emotion. It is easy to get emotional on the things that are easy to see. It is easy to see passes that are not on target and blame the QB. It is easy to see the RB miss the wide open hole. It is easy to see that there were no rollouts or bootlegs called in the game. It is easy to see if the defense blitzes or not. It is easy to see if the pass rush is ineffective. It is easy to see missed tackles.

What is overlooked is that which is not easily seen in the play designs. What is not easy to see is who is covering a WR in Zone coverages. What is not easy to see is blown coverages. What is not easy to see is DL getting blown up on the edges and giving up leverage on running plays on the weak side. What is not easy to see is the front four getting blown off the ball on running plays and having the LB's and Safeties have to make every tackle in the running game. What is not easy to see is guys getting blown up on the blitz because they are not skilled enough or good enough blitzers to beat extra pass blockers. These are players not executing the play and playcalling will never fix these things. The only way to fix those things is to beat the guy in front of you consistently, something this defense has struggled to do up front.

Larry Coyer is the easy target for most of you. He is in charge of the defense when they get their ass kicked by superior offenses because of no DL execution. He gets no credit when they dominate teams and allow less than ten points a game for most of the games this year. This defense has four or five guys that are going to win the battle against the man they go up against every play. Bailey, Lynch, Wilson, Gold, and sometimes DJ Wiliams. Most elite defenses have 6-7 guys who are going to win those battles and at least two on the DL in a 4-3 look.

I have said all along how well the team has smoke and mirrored the DL so the back seven can make plays. Well, you have now seen the results when they can no longer play well when the DL gets abused against teams that can execute like INDY, SD, and even PIT occasionally.

Coyer has been blamed incessantly for not mixing it up more and not blitzing enough and then he brings a blitz on a play perfectly designed against it and everyone is quick to criticize in hindsight. Never mind you were probably yelling blitz pre snap since the pass rush was not getting anywhere near Rivers without extra help. Never mind that is the first TD scored against them outside 21 yards all year. Did that play suck and would Coyer probably like to have it back? I certainly think so. However, it was the first big play TD surrendered in 10 games outside 21 yards and Denver still led 24-21.

What is unacceptable is the effort the Defense failed to produce from that play on. They flat out quit for the most part and allowed 14 more points without ever winning a play from there on out. They deserve to be ridiculed and the defensive staff should be ashamed as well. Someone needs to kick those guys that quit and hold them responsible.

I don't have the slightest problem with Coyer's gameplan against the Chargers. He stunted early and when the Chargers ran the ball, our Dend was getting sealed inside all day. BUT, this does not change what happened vs. Indy, three blitzes in 60 plays and all snaps were taken with a vanilla cover 2 look. Man, whatever he does, i just want him to give that blitzing look to screw up presnap option routes and coverage reads between the QB and receiver who have to be on the same page.

Now... Who should get the blame? The Front office obviously, they've ignored the D-line for I don't know how long. I hope the Broncos continued to get embarrased on that front until the point that Shanahan realizes he can't just wing it with these scrubs.

Warren is an overpaid fatso. Hey Mediator, you can defend Coyer all you want but this guy compared Warren to "elite" defensive tackles saying that as long as they let him rush the QB, he'll have plenty of success. Bad toe or not, I'm watching this fat ass down after down stand up two blockers at the LOS, completely motionless. No explosiveness. But i will say this, he looked much better a player last year.

[SureShot]

[QUOTE=Willynowei;1368336] I hope the Broncos continued to get embarrased on that front until the point that Shanahan realizes he can't just wing it with these scrubs. /QUOTE]

Watch out. Statements like that will cause some to label you a "bad fan", or having an "agenda".

[Rascal]

This might sound odd - it's totally counter to my usual line of reasoning - but I think we might be tipping off our blitz packages somehow.

Well hell I can tell from my 27" TV where the blitz is coming from before the play starts, if I can do it then sure as hell a decent QB can do it.

[Play2win]

[QUOTE=Willynowei;1368336] I hope the Broncos continued to get embarrased on that front until the point that Shanahan realizes he can't just wing it with these scrubs. /QUOTE]

Watch out. Statements like that will cause some to label you a "bad fan", or having an "agenda".

Negative Fan is the correct term. ie., rooting against "your" team for the disembowment or fame of a certain player...