PDA

View Full Version : Hundreds of Campsites May Close


Cito Pelon
11-19-2006, 05:04 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/ci_4685956

Hundreds of campsites may close
Analysis of cost: A backlog in maintenance led to the proposed cuts. Officials hope private groups adopt some sites.
By Jeremy P. Meyer
Denver Post Staff Writer
Article Last Updated:11/19/2006 12:35:53 AM MST


Hundreds of campgrounds, picnic areas and other recreation facilities in national forests and grasslands could close under a sweeping U.S. Forest Service cost-cutting exercise.

Every one of the roughly 15,000 campgrounds, trailheads with bathrooms and other developed recreation sites in the 193 million acres under the agency's authority is being evaluated.

The value of each site is being weighed against the costs of maintaining it, federal officials say.

Forest Service officials say they are being forced to juggle priorities as the system faces a $346 million backlog in maintenance, a growing tab for fire suppression - now 42 percent of expenditures - and an annual budget that was cut 2.5 percent to $4.9 billion for 2007.

"We are looking at reality here," said Jim Bedwell, the Forest Service's national director of recreation and heritage resources. "We're trying to best focus our funds as well as look at other ways to operate."

So far, about 10 percent of facilities in 44 national forests that have completed their studies are targeted for decommission or closure.

Each of the 155 national forests and 20 grasslands must complete a recreation-site facility master plan by the end of 2007.

The process calls for recreation facilities to be itemized and ranked in order of their condition, frequency of use and how they fit in the forest's recreation focus, or "niche."

"There is a whole range of potential outcomes ... from closing sites to actually upgrading them," said Steve Sherwood, director of recreation for the Forest Service's Rocky Mountain Region.

The public will have a chance to weigh in once the sites have been selected. Implementation of the plans will take five years, Forest Service officials say.

"Some of the sites being looked at have extremely low occupancy rates, in the 5 to 10 percent range," Sherwood said.

"We recognize there will be people who have strong connections," he said, "but we also know people in Maine and California expect us to take a hard look at those locations because it is their tax dollars going to support these small sites."

Forest Service officials say perhaps local volunteers, civic organizations and private groups could step in and run some of the facilities on the list.

"An enormous change"

Decommissioned campgrounds will still be available for camping, but they won't have toilets, trash cans, picnic tables or water systems, Sherwood said.

Critics say the Forest Service is sneaking the process through with little public involvement and the result will be less access to forests and fewer recreational opportunities.

"This is an enormous change for the Forest Service," said Robert Funkhouser, president of the Western Slope No-Fee Coalition.

"What you have here is a policy that mandates all sites are self-sustaining or profitable or they must be closed. ... That's not OK," Funkhouser said.

In the Grand Mesa, Uncompahgre and Gunnison national forests, 50 of the forests' 140 recreation amenities will have to close or be modified, said Lee Ann Loupe, a Forest Service spokeswoman.

The public will be able to comment on the process, and "nothing is set in stone yet," she said.

The Arapaho-Roosevelt National Forest and Pawnee National Grassland managers are starting their processes.

Arapaho-Roosevelt has enough money to operate 64 of its 177 recreation sites - with some others run by concessionaires, said Paul Cruz, forest recreation staff officer.

The White River National Forest plan is nearly complete - identifying 142 inventoried recreation sites. Details about what the forest is planning haven't been announced, Loupe said.

The Pike-San Isabel National Forest and Cimarron-Comanche National Grassland will begin their recreation site master planning in March, said Barb Timock, a forest spokeswoman.

One goal of the service's overall plan is to cut the $346 million maintenance backlog 20 percent by 2010, 70 percent by 2015 and 90 percent by 2020.

Water systems outdated

Another factor driving the review is the need to upgrade campground water systems to meet tougher federal drinking-water standards, officials say.

Most campgrounds were built in the 1960s and are out of date or falling apart, the Forest Service's Bedwell said.

"There has been a lot going on in the 40 years since then - there is more people, shifts in population, a diverse mix of visitors, different styles of recreation activities," he said.

Scott Silver, director of the Oregon-based Wild Wilderness, said the Forest Service is placing too much emphasis on cost- cutting and outside groups' taking over facilities.

"It is a way to allow the government to get the job done without using tax dollars," Silver said. "When you starve government of the needed money, you force these other alternatives. You start to make government fail. Americans are becoming used to government failing."

Staff writer Jeremy P. Meyer can be reached at 303-954-1367 or jpmeyer@denverpost.com.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Hell, I pay $9.00 per night at every Forest Service campground I've been to in Colorado. That can't cover the fire-fighting budget, I guess.

Nahh, the trouble is ever since Reagan went to Washington and rang up $7 trillion in debt the Federal budget has been stretched way to thin. Servicing that debt has cost this country 13% of the budget every year for 26 years. That $7 trillion is still on the books. Never was reduced by a penny. And now the debt is at $13 trillion, I believe. Servicing that debt is 23% of the Federal budget.

I'm pushing some Republican buttons, but bear with me, please. I don't intend this to be an anti-Reagan deal. I'm ambivalent towards Reagan. Reagan came along with his "It's Morning in America" slogan, and what a great slogan it was. It was a great message at that time. Rebuilding the Statue of Liberty, building a 600-ship Navy, doubling military pay-rates, pushing offensive weapons systems. The trouble was his domestic program. Reagan's "Supply-side" economics piggy-backed his excellent super-power showdown with the USSR.

Reagan was king of the world for a time, and anything he wanted he got, including the idea that rich people should not be taxed heavily and that's a good deal for America. It's not a good deal for America. Rich people should be taxed heavily.

Somehow enough people bought into supply-side economics, despite all of Reagan's $7 trillion in debt still being on the books, that they would elect GWB the supply-sider into office to balance the books. And now the books are twice as red.

W*GS
11-19-2006, 09:54 AM
Rich people should be taxed heavily.

Define "rich people", and "taxed heavily".

-Slap-
11-19-2006, 10:41 AM
Hell, I pay $9.00 per night at every Forest Service campground I've been to in Colorado. That can't cover the fire-fighting budget, I guess.

Nahh, the trouble is ever since Reagan went to Washington and rang up $7 trillion in debt the Federal budget has been stretched way to thin. Servicing that debt has cost this country 13% of the budget every year for 26 years. That $7 trillion is still on the books. Never was reduced by a penny. And now the debt is at $13 trillion, I believe. Servicing that debt is 23% of the Federal budget.

I'm pushing some Republican buttons, but bear with me, please. I don't intend this to be an anti-Reagan deal. I'm ambivalent towards Reagan. Reagan came along with his "It's Morning in America" slogan, and what a great slogan it was. It was a great message at that time. Rebuilding the Statue of Liberty, building a 600-ship Navy, doubling military pay-rates, pushing offensive weapons systems. The trouble was his domestic program. Reagan's "Supply-side" economics piggy-backed his excellent super-power showdown with the USSR.

Reagan was king of the world for a time, and anything he wanted he got, including the idea that rich people should not be taxed heavily and that's a good deal for America. It's not a good deal for America. Rich people should be taxed heavily.

Somehow enough people bought into supply-side economics, despite all of Reagan's $7 trillion in debt still being on the books, that they would elect GWB the supply-sider into office to balance the books. And now the books are twice as red.

The problem of homelessness and gangs also exploded under Reagan.

W*GS
11-19-2006, 10:49 AM
The problem of homelessness and gangs also exploded under Reagan.

Homelessness continued into GHWB's administration, but then was miraculously solved under Clinton, right?

Don't mistake the pronouncements and pre-eminence of the late Mitch Snyder during that period in the MSM as what was really going on.

Besides, gangs are mostly a local law-enforcement problem; what's the President supposed to do about it? Both Reagan, GHWB and Clinton manfully prosecuted the War on Drugs during their terms in office; that it didn't get rid of the gang problem isn't their fault...

loborugger
11-19-2006, 12:02 PM
Too bad. I see that %42 percent of the FS budget goes towards fire suppression. I bet that if charted the costs out, they would find that the cost of suppressing fires is spiralling upwards. Dont be surprised if this isnt the last time campgrounds come under the ax.

Couple of thoughts here.

1. One of the biggest problems now in wildland fire is urban interface. There are a lot of remote structures in rural areas now. More so than in the past. People want to be in nature.. ie, if I have a 3/4 of a million dollar log cabin with a couple of trees around it, I am a rugged individualist and a nature person - turn up the heater, its 65 degrees in here! As protection of property (not to mention life) are priorities for the FS, protecting these remote Shangri-las can drain resources from firefighting. I think if you have a remote property site (esp if its a 2nd home), there oughta be a tax involved - a fire suppression tax. Not that I am a huge fan of taxes, but if the public has to pony up to protect your house, you should shoulder a larger burden of the responibility.

2. The FS has spent almost a century suppressing fire with a zeal that an OCD washes their hands. Now we are living with that legacy. Our forests are tinderboxes filled with tons of litter (natural, not trash) and fuel that shoulda been burned off by previously supressed fires. What is happening now is that a higher percentage of fires are becoming catastrophic fires.

3. The FS (like some many other American entities) is in love with high tech gizmos. And while they are usually cool, they are also usually expensive. Worse, they are only moderately effective. I cant tell you how many slurry drops I saw that completely missed the mark and were a waste - & at almost 10 grand a pop, that is a LOT of wasted money. I would bet dimes/donuts that a very large chunk of that 42% of their budget is aviation related. And while aviation is a nifty tool that provides great things like aerial maps in infared and moves people around rough terrain very quickly, I bet there is space for some cutting in there.

4. FS personnel that get deployed to the firelines stand to really pad their pay check with hours. Hell, one summer, I worked 800 hours of regular time, and almost 1100 hours of overtime. In other words, there are a lot of FS personnel not directly involved in fire suppression (admin, pay, etc) that are tripping over themselves to get outta the office and into a firecamp where they can get on the clock for 12, 14, or more hours a day. In otherwords, there is no incentive for anyone in the FS (from secretaries to head rangers) to make fire suppression LESS expensive. Its a big pot, and everyone can get a handful to pad their govt salary.

There are other problems effecting the issue... recent droughts come to mind, but from my time fighting fire, these are the biggest, IMHO. And, while the first three can be overcome with effective management and time, the one problem that wont go away is the last one. As long as there is an endless pot of cash to fight fire with and people that make GS 6 or 7 wages trying to buy boats, etc, I dont see fire suppression getting less expensive. Also, dont be surprised if access to public lands gets even more enfringed upon. I knew a couple of folks from my time there that would have been more than pleased with keeping everyone outta the woods... nobody in, no problems!

So, I dont know if we should blame all of this on Bush, Reagan, or Clinton... I say blame it on Plummer, but thats just me.

yavoon
11-19-2006, 01:26 PM
its hard to maintain a properly corrupt welfare state while still spending money on things that are useful.

Cito Pelon
12-06-2006, 09:54 PM
Define "rich people", and "taxed heavily".

Decided I'd reply to this. I don't visit this sub-forum all that much anymore. One of the reasons being it's too easy to say regrettable things, and give out too much personal information in an attempt to justify one's ventings, or prove the accuracy of one's assertions.

"Rich" I would say is earning over $1 mill/yr. "Taxed heavily" I say it should be progressive. At 1 mill/yr naturally I don't want to attack them too heavily, say actually pay the 39% as is structured. Now, as one goes up the ladder to the many that pull in $10 mill/yr plus, then I don't have a problem at all with going up to a 80%-90% bracket, progressively. I know many taxpayers from the lowest to those in the 1 mill/yr brackets, and the lowest get a free pass, and the highest have gotten a free pass, IMO. That leaves the middle pretty much making all the sacrifices. We've had these discussions before, and I haven't changed my mind much. But I'm flexible.

Atlas
12-06-2006, 09:56 PM
The problem of homelessness and gangs also exploded under Reagan.

The old urban legend is that the Reagan administration actually started the the crack epidemic in the slums to keep the black man down.

Cito Pelon
12-06-2006, 10:02 PM
Too bad. I see that %42 percent of the FS budget goes towards fire suppression. I bet that if charted the costs out, they would find that the cost of suppressing fires is spiralling upwards. Dont be surprised if this isnt the last time campgrounds come under the ax.

Couple of thoughts here.

1. One of the biggest problems now in wildland fire is urban interface. There are a lot of remote structures in rural areas now. More so than in the past. People want to be in nature.. ie, if I have a 3/4 of a million dollar log cabin with a couple of trees around it, I am a rugged individualist and a nature person - turn up the heater, its 65 degrees in here! As protection of property (not to mention life) are priorities for the FS, protecting these remote Shangri-las can drain resources from firefighting. I think if you have a remote property site (esp if its a 2nd home), there oughta be a tax involved - a fire suppression tax. Not that I am a huge fan of taxes, but if the public has to pony up to protect your house, you should shoulder a larger burden of the responibility.

2. The FS has spent almost a century suppressing fire with a zeal that an OCD washes their hands. Now we are living with that legacy. Our forests are tinderboxes filled with tons of litter (natural, not trash) and fuel that shoulda been burned off by previously supressed fires. What is happening now is that a higher percentage of fires are becoming catastrophic fires.

3. The FS (like some many other American entities) is in love with high tech gizmos. And while they are usually cool, they are also usually expensive. Worse, they are only moderately effective. I cant tell you how many slurry drops I saw that completely missed the mark and were a waste - & at almost 10 grand a pop, that is a LOT of wasted money. I would bet dimes/donuts that a very large chunk of that 42% of their budget is aviation related. And while aviation is a nifty tool that provides great things like aerial maps in infared and moves people around rough terrain very quickly, I bet there is space for some cutting in there.

4. FS personnel that get deployed to the firelines stand to really pad their pay check with hours. Hell, one summer, I worked 800 hours of regular time, and almost 1100 hours of overtime. In other words, there are a lot of FS personnel not directly involved in fire suppression (admin, pay, etc) that are tripping over themselves to get outta the office and into a firecamp where they can get on the clock for 12, 14, or more hours a day. In otherwords, there is no incentive for anyone in the FS (from secretaries to head rangers) to make fire suppression LESS expensive. Its a big pot, and everyone can get a handful to pad their govt salary.

There are other problems effecting the issue... recent droughts come to mind, but from my time fighting fire, these are the biggest, IMHO. And, while the first three can be overcome with effective management and time, the one problem that wont go away is the last one. As long as there is an endless pot of cash to fight fire with and people that make GS 6 or 7 wages trying to buy boats, etc, I dont see fire suppression getting less expensive. Also, dont be surprised if access to public lands gets even more enfringed upon. I knew a couple of folks from my time there that would have been more than pleased with keeping everyone outta the woods... nobody in, no problems!

So, I dont know if we should blame all of this on Bush, Reagan, or Clinton... I say blame it on Plummer, but thats just me.

Good post. There are a lot of problems that come into play with an entrenched bureaucracy. There's also a lot to be said for career bureaucrats. I've always said - one thing about GWB and his gang is they shook things up. How it all plays out, we'll see. I've said that many times also.