Some Home Truths about Jake Plummer

[fontaine]

There are opinions flying all around the place about Plummer so I wanted to just focus on facts about Plummer's individual play this season. Feel free to add you own:

1. Only five teams have been intercepted more per throw than the Broncos.

2. Jake Plummer is on pace to throw almost 20 ints this season. It would be the sixth time he's achieved this dubious feat. I think Slap put it best when he said no other QB in the modern game has had 6 seasons of 20 or more ints in his career.

3. 8 out of 10 of his ints have come in his first 20 passing attempts with a horrific 54% completion rate. So much for playing it safe and limiting Jake's snaps to 15-20 passing attempts a game.

4. 7 out of 10 of his ints have come in passes thrown for 20 yards or LESS with a gutwrenching 55% completion rate. These passes are the bread and butter of the WCO. So much for dialing back the offense and limiting Jake to throw what should be high percentage, dink and dunk passes.

5. He's fumbled the ball 4 times. That's more than the Bells and Damien Nash combined.

On a QB change:
6. But Plummer also knows the deal. He, too, has said repeatedly that if his play is sub-par and the team loses several games, he believes he's coming out. So they've made no secret about that to him.
http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/denver/broncos/archives/2006/11/for_whom_the_ba.html

[Popps]

Awesome!

[fontaine]

Here's the WORST stat of all:

Our great Defense has only given up 8 TDs so far. They are on pace for a record breaking season.

Meanwhile almost half of the TDs they have given up (3) have come about when Jake Plummer has turned the ball over and given the other team starting field position INSIDE THE RED ZONE!

Yikes!

[BroncoBuff]

Those are some eye-opening facts. I'd like to post some "devil's advocate" counter-points, but I'm nearly drawing a blank.

I'll say this: Shanny has been quoted that a coach can't just stick a rookie into the lineup and expect the teams - the veterans - to go along happily. He said that the locker room has to be READY for the change. And Jake has made a lotta friends in that locker room. Rod Smith said the idea of starting Cutler wasd "crazy." Coming from Rod, that's a powerful indication of how such a move might go over with the team.

I know, I know, Shanny's the coach and the players should do what they're told. I hear that. But team chemistry and cameraderie are tenuous factors. What if Cutler started at Oakland, threw two picks in the first half, and we lost? Think about that for a minute.

[fontaine]

Those are some eye-opening facts. I'd like to post some "devil's advocate" counter-points, but I'm nearly drawing a blank.

I'll say this: Shanny has been quoted that a coach can't just stick a rookie into the lineup and expect the teams - the veterans - to go along happily. He said that the locker room has to be READY for the change.

Correct:

Shanahan has said that he wouldn't make the change at quarterback unless he believed it was the best move to make at that time over both the short- and long-haul and that the locker room was also ready for the move as well.

[fontaine]

Another disturbing stat:

In the first half of all 9 games so far, Jake has passed for just 5 TDs. That's 5 TDs in 18 quarters of football.

Plummer has been abismal starting off the game.

[16slayer24]

simply put jake is 7-2 this year nuff said

[DivineLegion]

How were his stats last year when our backs finnished with a combined 2000 yards and we were averaging over 100 ypg? Last year our Run game was alot better and the Line seemed more in-sync...We just changed both of our Tackles we dont have a back that can handle the load and together they have done nothing this season. How did Jake do last season with a good Running game again?

[fontaine]

There are only five starting QBs in the league that have a worse int per pass ratio than Jake:

A. Walter QB, OAK
C. Frye QB, CLE
J. Harrington QB, MIA
V. Young QB, TEN
B. Roethlisberger QB, PIT

[fontaine]

simply put jake is 7-2 this year nuff said

ahem:

from the first post:
facts about Plummer's individual play this season

[fontaine]

How were his stats last year when our backs finnished with a combined 2000 yards and we were averaging over 100 ypg? Last year our Run game was alot better and the Line seemed more in-sync...We just changed both of our Tackles we dont have a back that can handle the load and together they have done nothing this season. How did Jake do last season with a good Running game again?

Jake had an awesome season last year. I really wish that guy would come back.

But I thought we were talking about his individual play this season.

I'm just using facts (not opinions) to see what Jake has brought to the table this season.

Please feel free to do the same.

[Northman]

ahem:

from the first post:



They have a hard time understanding that evidently.

[fontaine]

Jake has been one of the least sacked QBs in the AFC but at the same time his completion % is 3rd worst in the AFC.

He's only ahead of Andrew Walter/Vince Young.

Here are some nobodies that have a better completion % than Jake:


Charlie Frye Cle 67.8
Damon Huard KC 66.3
J.P. Losman Buf 59.4
Joey Harrington 56.7 (ouch, this one hurts)
Drew Brees NO 68.7 (in a new offense coming off of shoulder surgery)
Jon Kitna Det 68.6 (you gotta be sh*ttin' me)
Brad Johnson Min 66.2
Kurt Warner Ari 64.2 ( awww ph*ck)
Mark Brunell Was 60.9 ( didn't he just get benched? )
Alex Smith SF 59.1 ( The consensus worst passer of last year )

[Northman]

How were his stats last year when our backs finnished with a combined 2000 yards and we were averaging over 100 ypg? Last year our Run game was alot better and the Line seemed more in-sync...We just changed both of our Tackles we dont have a back that can handle the load and together they have done nothing this season. How did Jake do last season with a good Running game again?



2006 rushing stats through 10 games. 276 attempts for 1265 yds with a 4.58 per carry. Denver is second in the AFC in Rushing and 4th overall in the league. Sorry, better go back and find another excuse.

[Northman]

Jake has been one of the least sacked QBs in the AFC but at the same time his completion % is 3rd worst in the AFC.

He's only ahead of Andrew Walter/Vince Young.

Here are some nobodies that have a better completion % than Jake:


Charlie Frye Cle 67.8
Damon Huard KC 66.3
J.P. Losman Buf 59.4
Joey Harrington 56.7 (ouch, this one hurts)
Drew Brees NO 68.7 (in a new offense coming off of shoulder surgery)
Jon Kitna Det 68.6 (you gotta be sh*ttin' me)
Brad Johnson Min 66.2
Kurt Warner Ari 64.2 ( awww ph*ck)
Mark Brunell Was 60.9 ( didn't he just get benched? )
Alex Smith SF 59.1 ( The consensus worst passer of last year )



So let me ask you Fontaine, when do you think Damon Huard who hasnt played in what? 6 or more years? When do you think he will finally hit stride? :D

[fontaine]

Someone brought up the rushing game, new tackles etc.

So I decided to take one of the worst teams in the league in terms of rushing offense:

Detroit is averaging 84.0 yards a game. Good for 30th in the league.

Their starting QB, this guy: http://espn.starwave.com/i/nfl/profiles/players/65x90/4157.jpg

is in his first year in a complex Mike Martz offense with different WRs, no rushing game and has been sacked a sh*tload of times.

But somehow, John freakin' Kitna is kicking Plummer a$$ on almost every single QB measure:

Jon Kitna QB, DET 206 326 63.2 2376 7.29 60 11 3.4 11 3.4 29.0 156 82.3

J. Plummer QB, DEN 137 248 55.2 1595 6.43 83 10 4.0 10 4.0 13.0 83 71.6

QB rating, completion %, int ratio, TDs, yards per pass, hell Kitna has been sacked more than twice the amount Plummer has.

[s0phr0syne]

It's a team sport.

[Northman]

It's a team sport.


Oh look, another moron who cant understand what the thread is about. :rofl:

[BroncoBuff]

Correct:
Shanahan has said that he wouldn't make the change at quarterback unless he believed it was the best move to make at that time over both the short- and long-haul and that the locker room was also ready for the move as well.

Yup. I think this is probably the point most of the "Start Jay Now" crowd is missing, and it's prolly why Shanny's not starting Jay.

[fontaine]

Yup. I think this is probably the point most of the "Start Jay Now" crowd is missing, and it's prolly why Shanny's not starting Jay.

For the record, I don't want Jay to start for reasons that have already been well posted.

However, I am just pointing out that we have a SuperBowl caliber defense this year (given up just 8 TDs in nine games). But it's all for nothing when we have a QB that seems to be playing for the other team.

Ask yourself this question: If Jake was even playing average, wouldn't we be dominating teams with the type of rushing game/Defense we have?

[Kaylore]

I got this one... Here's the usual suspect of defense's and why they're flawed.

1. "He wins games." Does he? Look at Shanahan's win record before Jake Plummer!...oh crap. Now look at Jake's win record without Shanahan. What do you notice? Now some will say "but that's because the Cardinals sucked those years!" Yes they did. Yes they did indeed.

2. "But he had (insert number) good drives at the end of (insert game he almost botched)!" I don't get why people think making big mistakes again and again, every game is ok as long as you win. People say "well he didn't cost us any games." Does anyone else realize how good the rest of this team is and how much crappier he's making it look?

3. "The defense has holes." First, yes they do. We're pretty banged up in addition to our regular weaknesses. The problem is there isn't anything we can do about it. On the other hand, we do have someone else who could play Quarterback, and the fact that he is going to sooner or later spells the inevitable.

Second, what in the world does the defense have to do with Jake Playing like crap? Is that his job?

The funniest was when Alec tried to blame Jake's crap play on the defense by saying that their "bend-don't-break" method puts Jake in bad field position. He seems to think that when Jake is turning the ball over in our own redzone over and over, or even going three-and-out five times in a row it's more acceptable than our defense not sacking offense's back to their own one yard line over and over.

4. "Jake won a lot of games for us/took us to the playoffs three times." This is true, but that was then and this is now. Players change. Consider these men: Brad Johnson, Drew Bledsoe, Kurt Warner. These are all men who have played in and/or won super bowls. Do they look like they could win a super bowl now? Are they playing like they could? What happened? What about all they've done?! Doesn't it count for something? Nope. It's about now. I'd give my right nut for 2005 Jake or even 2003 Jake.

5. "Jake is what he is. Why are you upset by this?" Surprised I put this one up here? Some of you calling for a change are even making this mistake. The idea that "this is the same Jake" we've always had also isn't true.

While there are some of the same problems we've always seen, he's playing some of the worst football of his career here. This is worse than even 2004 because then Jake was at least putting up big yards and scoring touchdowns. This year it's just all incompletions and interceptions other than big plays where Javon largely stole the ball from a defender or took a short pass and broke it for a big TD. I don't think we'll ever see anything as bad as his play in 1999, but 2002 or 1998? It's starting to look that way...

6. "Well Shanahan hasn't made the change. If Jay were really better he would put him in like Foster or Nash." If anyone really thinks the implications for changing an underachieving right tackle are the same as switching out your starting QB, you are insane.

7. "We're winning now." This is the only argument that has any merit, but I still disagree. Sure, "why change horses mid-stream?" Because your horse has almost gotten you drowned and managed to do so once already. Slap's analogy of clinging to a rock in a flood was spot on.

I think that it also sends a bad message to the veterans and players who were replaced during the season when you don't hold every position accountable. I think we put Jay in based on fairness, even if it means losing games in the short term. If we make the change, when Jay starts to struggle Jake can put it on himself for playing poorly enough to lose the support of his coaches and letting his teammates down.

8. "Jake is just having some struggles/a bad start." This one is the funniest because it suggests he's only hit some bumps here and there. If you can't see with your own eyes how bad he is, then I don't know what to say. Then again I saw Foster getting owned every week and some people seemed to think I was making that up, so I guess that's that.

9. "It's not Jake! I blame (Rod Smith/Mike Heimerdinger/the whole offense/Mike Shanahan saving the "real" stuff for later/no running game/Receivers can't get open/loss of Kubiak/new players/ et al) for making him look bad!" This is also funny because suddenly it's everyone else's fault. Despite clear evidence (Jake repeatedly throwing balls behind his receivers for example) that Jake himself is a large part of the problem, people still try and pretend really he's fine and the whole team is just out of whack. Consider these facts:

The running game is fine. The receivers, including Rod, are getting open, the protection has been pretty good (sacks are low). It's hard to see a problem on offense. Also, anyone who thinks Shanahan is saving plays for a certain opponent is being ridiculous. He designs new plays and scripts for each opponent and if you ask EVERY player in the league they'll tell you that watching tape of Shanahan against other opponents is pointless because he never uses the same thing twice! So shut up with the "he's saving it" crap!

The arguments to keep him in don't hold water. The only thing that can save him is solid play the rest of the year. After 9 games, I don't see that happening.

[Kaylore]

It's a team sport.

Thank you for this obvious and useless post.

[watermock]

http://student-iat.ubalt.edu/sde/students/allen/COSC330/GameLog/geico-cavemen.jpg

[fontaine]

Fact:

Of Plummer's 248 passing attempts only 19 have come when Denver has been behind by two or more scores.

In other words, our starting QB has been behind by two scores just 8% of the entire season so far. We've largely been either ahead or just behind in close games.

So why has Plummer has put up Arizona Jake like stats/performances this season?

This year Jake's overall stats are very comparable to what he did in Arizona without the benefit of a running game/OL/defense. Why is he doing this to Denver?

[fontaine]

Fact:

Jake Plummer leads the league in turnovers inside his own 20 yard line.

[OrangeShadow]

he doesnt step into his throws every time i think that kills him

[fontaine]

Here's the WORST stat of all:

Our great Defense has only given up 8 TDs so far. They are on pace for a record breaking season.

Meanwhile almost half of the TDs they have given up (3) have come about when Jake Plummer has turned the ball over and given the other team starting field position INSIDE THE RED ZONE!

Yikes!

Just wanted to repeat the above post.

This is the single most damaging aspect of Plummer.

It's probably why he's become a bit of a joke in the local media when they say there are only two QBs that can beat Denver: Peyton Manning and Jake Plummer.

[fontaine]

Shanahan:

"I don't know why Jake throws so many interceptions on the road."

I feel your pain Mike.

[footstepsfrom#27]

We're going to find out real quick if Fake can pull it together and take this team anywhere or not. Down the stretch with our defense starting to suffer some key injuries now, we have some high powered offenses to contend with...San Diego twice (33ppg/#1 in the NFL), Seattle, Cincinatti and of course the annual nightmare struggle in Arrowhead to deal with. Optimistically that might equate to at least two losses...but if bad Jake shows up with regularity we could be looking at 4. We got fortunate in catching Pittsburgh in a funk and Baltimore cresting a wave early. Now let's see what happens as teams know they have to win to qualify for the playoffs and they start loading up to come after Jake.

Hide the women and kids if you're squeamish...it could get ugly.

[fontaine]

Fact:

J. Plummer's yards/PA is one of the worst in the league.

He's 25th with 6.43 ypa even though we've got a probowl WR in Javon Walker who is a stone cold playmaker.

In the last game he completed as many passes to Raiders CB Fabian Washington( 2 ints - which really should have been 3) as he did to Walker so I'm guessing that has something to do with it.

[Fusionfrontman]

I honestly believe that this is Jake's FINAL make or break game coming up. Home against SD, if he doesnt play well he NEEDS to go. Im a big supporter of Jake, but im not blind to the facts either. This guy is killing a GREAT team. Its unfortunate because you dont know if by the time Jay developes into an elite QB, if the rest of the team will stay in tact.

Right now Jake is playing as a stop gap QB at the worst time.
Jake better get his head on for the rest of the season, cuss if he throws one more pick im gonna loose it.
I can only imagine how the "start jay, Jake sucks" people are feeling

[fontaine]

I honestly believe that this is Jake's FINAL make or break game coming up. Home against SD, if he doesnt play well he NEEDS to go. Im a big supporter of Jake, but im not blind to the facts either. This guy is killing a GREAT team. Its unfortunate because you dont know if by the time Jay developes into an elite QB, if the rest of the team will stay in tact.

Right now Jake is playing as a stop gap QB at the worst time.
Jake better get his head on for the rest of the season, cuss if he throws one more pick im gonna loose it.
I can only imagine how the "start jay, Jake sucks" people are feeling

:thumbsup:

Kudos on having the balls to NOT make something up or deflect by saying "Jake is 39-13" and "it's a team sport."

Anyone else want to put in some FACTS about Jake's play this season?

Funny that there are so many opinions on the board about how we should stop whining and support Jake but so far I'm not getting any facts from the same people on said issue.

The best I got was an "Awesome" by Poops on page 1.

[freak6]

Great job fontaine. This thread rules. Kudos to you!

[riiiiick]

no denying his stats are bad. the only thing he has going for him this year is his leadership. his team likes him and keeps fighting for/with him. this team has won 39 games with jake. winners get paid better than the losers they beat and that means more money for their families. pros do not take that lightly. jake is a better QB than he has shown this year and the ONLY reason he is still playing is his team is winning. as with NE, indy, and pitt he will step up sunday.

[HitEmCold]

the only thing he has going for him this year is his leadership. his team likes him and keeps fighting for/with him.

How do you know this??

Good job stating the facts about Jake, hard for any Jake apologists to combat any of the facts. I personally can't believe anybody is still blind to how awful Jake has played. You can like the guy, root for the guy, but to be blinded to the facts is beyond me. This is possibly the worst performance we have seen by a QB in Denver, including the Greise/Ferotte show.

[ScottXray]

no denying his stats are bad. the only thing he has going for him this year is his leadership. his team likes him and keeps fighting for/with him. this team has won 39 games with jake. winners get paid better than the losers they beat and that means more money for their families. pros do not take that lightly. jake is a better QB than he has shown this year and the ONLY reason he is still playing is his team is winning. as with NE, indy, and pitt he will step up sunday.

Jake HAS stepped up against the best teams....However, I can't say that I like relying on that. I also don't believe he can continue to do so.

Keep in mind that although he has only lost to the Chuggers once, it wasn't because of HIS play. Indeed he has shown exactly ALL the faults pointed out in this thread, especially when he plays against SD. He starts out slow, turns the ball over early, and often, and hasn't really ever played well against them. He usually gets a drive or two late in the game. The DEFENSE has been the catalyst for wins in the last few games with SD...not Jake. We have run well also.

Our Defense is VERY banged up, and Shotty seems to be leaning away from Martyball this year, and letting Rivers win games. Exactly where we are having problems. If the D doesn't hold them or get them off on third downs, we could have a LONG day Sunday night.

RELYING on Jake to step up and have a good game is like saying the lottery is a good retirement plan. You MIGHT do well...but you usually won't. This year it is a really bad idea.
:spit:

[Taco John]

I got this one... Here's the usual suspect of defense's and why they're flawed.


haha! There's so many good points in your post Kaylore. Quality stuff.

I just have to comment that I think it's amusing when people try to blame Plummer's problems on the defense giving up field position. Just when I can't imagine a worse argument, someone comes in with the take that Shanahan is hiding the "good" plays.

The only fun part of watching Jake this season in to watch folks come up with increasingly ridiculous ways of putting blame on everyone but Plummer, while creating excuse after excuse for the guy. The latest one blames Javon Walker for a Plummer interception. I guess the only thing a person can do is roll their eyes and laugh.

[Fusionfrontman]

Heres the thing with watching Jake play...i honestly cringe every single time he drops back to pass,, or rolls out to pass, or hands the ball off. its unsetteling when someone like manning can drop back and look to his third and fourth reciever when the most jake can do is throw to oppossing teams third and fourth cornerback.

Jakes got one game left and then im off his bandwagon

[-Slap-]

Here's the WORST stat of all:

Our great Defense has only given up 8 TDs so far. They are on pace for a record breaking season.

Meanwhile almost half of the TDs they have given up (3) have come about when Jake Plummer has turned the ball over and given the other team starting field position INSIDE THE RED ZONE!

Yikes!

But our defense sucks remember?

They don't rush the quarterback well enough, so they suck.

[freak6]

The only fun part of watching Jake this season in to watch folks come up with increasingly ridiculous ways of putting blame on everyone but Plummer,

I have to reset this gem.
There are differences in the field and grass that Joke Blunder looks for while throwing passes at Mile High that just aren't the same on the road.

Unbelievable.

[-Slap-]

Those are some eye-opening facts. I'd like to post some "devil's advocate" counter-points, but I'm nearly drawing a blank.

I'll say this: Shanny has been quoted that a coach can't just stick a rookie into the lineup and expect the teams - the veterans - to go along happily. He said that the locker room has to be READY for the change. And Jake has made a lotta friends in that locker room. Rod Smith said the idea of starting Cutler wasd "crazy." Coming from Rod, that's a powerful indication of how such a move might go over with the team.

I know, I know, Shanny's the coach and the players should do what they're told. I hear that. But team chemistry and cameraderie are tenuous factors. What if Cutler started at Oakland, threw two picks in the first half, and we lost? Think about that for a minute.

Again, who here envisions Rod Smith leading a lockerroom revolt against Shanahan, not to mention The Kid, who's completely blameless in this situation?

Now, who pictures Rod doing everything in his power to help The Kid succeed?

[-Slap-]

Someone brought up the rushing game, new tackles etc.

So I decided to take one of the worst teams in the league in terms of rushing offense:

Detroit is averaging 84.0 yards a game. Good for 30th in the league.

Their starting QB, this guy: http://espn.starwave.com/i/nfl/profiles/players/65x90/4157.jpg

is in his first year in a complex Mike Martz offense with different WRs, no rushing game and has been sacked a sh*tload of times.

But somehow, John freakin' Kitna is kicking Plummer a$$ on almost every single QB measure:

Jon Kitna QB, DET 206 326 63.2 2376 7.29 60 11 3.4 11 3.4 29.0 156 82.3

J. Plummer QB, DEN 137 248 55.2 1595 6.43 83 10 4.0 10 4.0 13.0 83 71.6

QB rating, completion %, int ratio, TDs, yards per pass, hell Kitna has been sacked more than twice the amount Plummer has.

I'm going to laugh at this post to keep from crying.

[BroncoInferno]

Again, who here envisions Rod Smith leading a lockerroom revolt against Shanahan, not to mention The Kid, who's completely blameless in this situation?

Now, who pictures Rod doing everything in his power to help The Kid succeed?

Would Rod say the right things to the media and make an honest effort to help Cutler? Certainly. Does that say anything about what he'd really think about it? Not at all. That's what's tenuous about the situation. I doubt there is anyone on this team who would make any anti-Cutler statements, but that doesn't mean that there wouldn't be serious doubts that could very well hurt the team chemistry.

[Taco John]

But our defense sucks remember?

They don't rush the quarterback well enough, so they suck.



We have registered 22 sacks so far this season. Last year, we had a total of 28.

This is largely using a strategy that relies on the front four to get us sacks.

And still, people can't get through a game without wanting to fire our defensive coordinator, while offering up takes like "you morons just want to blame the quarterback instead of do any in depth analysis." Apparently, unearthing new excuses for why it's everyone else's fault but Jake is what passes for in depth analysis.

[-Slap-]

Would Rod say the right things to the media and make an honest effort to help Cutler? Certainly. Does that say anything about what he'd really think about it? Not at all. That's what's tenuous about the situation. I doubt there is anyone on this team who would make any anti-Cutler statements, but that doesn't mean that there wouldn't be serious doubts that could very well hurt the team chemistry.

How do you know Rod's not just saying the right things to the media right now in an honest effort to help Jake?

[BroncoInferno]

We have registered 22 sacks so far this season. Last year, we had a total of 28.

This is largely using a strategy that relies on the front four to get us sacks.

I think, though, we've seen that there isn't enough consistency in that department still. Take the Pittsburgh game, for instance. We come out of that game with four sacks. Sounds great, right? But did that pass rush really look that good throughout most the game? Hardly. Rothlisberger had way too much time for much of the game. With that said, it's certainly better to have the sporadic pass rush we've had this season as opposed to the pitiful pass rush of last season.

And still, people can't get through a game without wanting to fire our defensive coordinator, while offering up takes like "you morons just want to blame the quarterback instead of do any in depth analysis." Apparently, unearthing new excuses for why it's everyone else's fault but Jake is what passes for in depth analysis.

Well, we're 7-2, so there isn't much complaining to do. In one of our losses Jake played a fine game and the D gave up 34 points. The opening loss was largely due to Jake's errors. So, while Jake certainly hasn't played well, it isn't costing us games (yet). I don't "blame" Coyer, personally; in fact, I'd say he does a helluva job given what he has to work with up front. But there are just certain teams where if you're pass rush isn't consistent, you won't stop them. I don't think we can beat Indy in January, and it has little to do with Plummer. It has to do with our sporadic pass rush. Worse QBs than Plummer have won SBs. They all had defenses who could consistently put heat on the opposing QB.

[Rascal]

I for one found this the more interesting part of that blog. People will flock to the Cutler part, but I'm not concerened about the QB. Shanny feels Jake is the better option, and until he decides otherwise I don't see much point in getting all pissed off like freak6 for Cutler not being in. It's obvious we have a capable QB as a backup should the decision be made, what is not obvious is who is going to be the RB that this offense so desperately needs. Really wished we could have snagged Maroney, but all well. I'm beginning to move RB up my wish list next year, although DE/DT and safety remain high.

Another thing people don't wish to discuss is Rod Smith. He no longer gets the seperation he use to, and it often takes a pin point accurate throw to get it to him. The window of opportunity for a completion is considerably smaller, and with accuracy not a high point with Plummer I think that is also hurting the offensive production. I wouldn't be suprised to see him call it good after this year, or possibly not even be our #2 WR next year.

People are going to use the stat that we are #4 in rushing to say otherwise, but IMO to say that our running game is up to Bronco standards is moronic. IMO it's the worst it's ever been under Shanny. Which also explains why this offense is the worst it's been under Shanny.

This offense is a one trick pony...Javon Walker. Outside Javon nobody gives defensive coordinators nightmares or even mild heart burn. Scheffler has been a disappointment at TE, Tatum hasn't shown his explosiveness from last year, and our o-line is considerably worse then previous years. People will point to Jake for our offensive problems, but IMO it's not just him.

Just my $.02.
------------------------------
Q: What is the deal with Mike Bell being deactivated? I, for one, have never been convinced Tatum Bell has the skill to be the Broncos' primary running back . . . When you look at the two best running backs in football, Tiki Barber and LaDainian Tomlinson, they cut and hit that hole full speed -- no hesitation, as does Mike Bell. I had hoped Mike Bell would win the starting role and keep it after that Indy game. Now I see he is benched . . . Can you explain what is going on with Mike Bell, please?

And in the crowd of 25 or so who joined in on he topic, Jim Dumas also wondered if it was a discipline issue . . . David Jackson wondered if there was more to it . . . Troy Herman in Northglenn said the Broncos run game lacks a "punishing'' runner . . . And Aaron Eischens in Honolulu just wanted to know "what the deal is with the running backs?'' . . .

Several others wondered why rookie tight end Tony Scheffler was deactivated as well.

A: The search continues at running back for the Broncos. Mike Bell was deactivated because Shanahan has been dissatisfied with the performance of the group for the most part, especially as the team turns toward the stretch.

The run game numbers are good overall -- they are fourth in the league in yards per game -- but Shanahan is accustomed to having a run game that was the offense's hammer. The kind that closes out games after the Broncos built an early lead.

The Broncos haven't had many early leads this year, and other than the second half against the Colts' struggling run defense, they haven't consistently asserted themselves like a postseason threat in the run game should.

Mike Bell got caught up in that, as did Tatum Bell and Cedric Cobbs and even to a certain extent Ron Dayne three months ago. Shanahan will keep the wheel spinning until one of the backs makes the job his own. Even for all Mike Anderson did -- and he was a better short-yardage runner than the current group -- Shanahan moved him back and forth from running back to fullback because Anderson didn't always show the explosiveness the team wants.

Again, this is a team that works off the model of Terrell Davis, a bruising back who could also make the big play, and to a lesser extent, Clinton Portis. Trouble is, those are rare backs.

In general this year, the biggest difficulty, other than a nagging toe injury that has limited Tatum Bell's explosiveness, has been all of the backs aren't running with the kind of head-up vision it takes to see all of the cut-back lanes in the Broncos offense.

When the Broncos offensive line fires out in the zone-run scheme, the idea is to leave three running lanes that the back can choose from. One of those is often the cut-back, which is also often where the big plays are.

But a runner has to have his head up and see the gap. The Broncos have not been all that effective in the cut-back game this year when it has been available -- it's not always there so it's important the back knows the difference and when to simply press the hole on the front side instead -- which is why their rollout game in the passing game hasn't been as big a factor as it normally is either.

For a defense to bite on the play fakes in the rollout game, the cut-back runs have had to sting it some. Without the cut-backs, there is no reason for the defense to bite so hard on the play fakes from Plummer before he rolls out.

And to have any legitimate chance to advance in the postseason, the Broncos will need the kind of run game that can keep the ball away from some of the offenses that will likely be in the postseason like Indianapolis, San Diego and New England.

In Scheffler's case, he has pressed at times because it has been far more difficult for him to get open than it was in college. It's a more physical game in the pattern now, and he also has dropped some balls he did not drop in college.

The Broncos sat him down this week just to give him a chance to step back a bit and relax. Obviously, he wants to be in uniform and play, but he needs to work his way through the rough spots.

[BroncoInferno]

How do you know Rod's not just saying the right things to the media right now in an honest effort to help Jake?

Could be. I think he'd most likely think, "I've won 39 games with this guy playing QB, I've won 0 with Cutler", and I think he'd be skeptical. Even if he in particular weren't skeptical, it's pretty much a given that some would be. If Jay then proceeded to go out and play poorly, I think that skepticsm would only exacerbate. Yes, I know Jake has played poorly, too...but they've seen him play generally well and help the team win a lot of games the last few seasons. I'd guess that most of the vets view Jake's overall performance this year as a funk that he'll work out of and go back to playing like he did last season. There would be no prior success with Cutler to give him the same leeway.

[BroncoInferno]

People are going to use the stat that we are #4 in rushing to say otherwise, but IMO to say that our running game is up to Bronco standards is moronic. IMO it's the worst it's ever been under Shanny.

I think it was worse in 2001 when TD was in and out of the lineup, but this would definately be second. The numbers look good, but I think watching the actual games we simply don't assert ourselves physically in the run game. Tatum (at the beginning of the season when he was posting good numbers) would get 2 or 3 yards and then bust three or four 15-20 yards to pad the average, but no consistency in terms of picking up 4 or 5 everytime. We just aren't that phyical running the ball right now, which is probably why Shanny is experimenting with Nash, who shows a little bit of pop that's been missing.

[troya900]

It really says alot about the team and Shanny. To have a 7-2 record with a QB playing this badly is simply amazing. I know its overused since Denny Green's meltdown, but really plummer is who we thought he is. He's going to have these terrible games and terrible throws which makes him one of the worst QB's in the league. I'd love to see Cutler get in there, if not hopefully plummer can lead us far into the playoffs again.

[labronx]

he doesnt step into his throws every time i think that kills him

Thats it right there.

About... I forget, maybe a year or even two ago? I reported that Plummer was not steping up on his 3 step drops but he did on his 5 and so on. He definately does on his roll outs(he has to). I noticed this after reviewing a couple of his games. Now it seems he does it all the time.

I wonder if Shan has just given up preaching this to him?

This is very disturbing as it's simple basic mechanics that are tought since pop warner.

[-Slap-]

Could be. I think he'd most likely think, "I've won 39 games with this guy playing QB, I've won 0 with Cutler", and I think he'd be skeptical. Even if he in particular weren't skeptical, it's pretty much a given that some would be. If Jay then proceeded to go out and play poorly, I think that skepticsm would only exacerbate. Yes, I know Jake has played poorly, too...but they've seen him play generally well and help the team win a lot of games the last few seasons. I'd guess that most of the vets view Jake's overall performance this year as a funk that he'll work out of and go back to playing like he did last season. There would be no prior success with Cutler to give him the same leeway.

So, you admit the concerns about team chemistry are 100% speculative.

[Paladin]

So, Plummer has had a terribly mixed, inconsistent season. So what? And calling people who like the wins "apologists" or "unrealistic" or some other dumarsed, derisive name is just BS. As has been said before: if they win, who gives a sh*t if you or anyone else is unhappy with the ugly win?

7-2. Not too shabby for a team with a ragged armed, dumbarsed QB, no? It makes no difference. He stays for now. Why is it hard to get over that?

[labronx]

Its unfortunate because you dont know if by the time Jay developes into an elite QB, if the rest of the team will stay in tact.


I think this is what troubles the like of TJ, Kay, Anubis and others who are "Jake Haters"

This is the part that really upsets me and has to be driving Shan mad. That is why we want Jay in NOW our window may close quick.

[BroncoInferno]

So, you admit the concerns about team chemistry are 100% speculative.

To an extent, but we already have a case study to look on: 1999. And considering that benching Bubby freaking Brister was a detremint to team chemistry, I'd suspect the same would likely be true with a better QB. At any rate, I'd rather not make such an "experiment" with a 7-2 team unless it becomes clear the vets would support a switch.

[broncosteven]

Here's the WORST stat of all:

Our great Defense has only given up 8 TDs so far. They are on pace for a record breaking season.

Meanwhile almost half of the TDs they have given up (3) have come about when Jake Plummer has turned the ball over and given the other team starting field position INSIDE THE RED ZONE!

Yikes!

This is a sad stat. Our D would have had a tremendous record that could have stood for the ages if not for terrible play from Blunder.

[broncosteven]

I got this one... Here's the usual suspect of defense's and why they're flawed.

1. "He wins games." Does he? Look at Shanahan's win record before Jake Plummer!...oh crap. Now look at Jake's win record without Shanahan. What do you notice? Now some will say "but that's because the Cardinals sucked those years!" Yes they did. Yes they did indeed.

2. "But he had (insert number) good drives at the end of (insert game he almost botched)!" I don't get why people think making big mistakes again and again, every game is ok as long as you win. People say "well he didn't cost us any games." Does anyone else realize how good the rest of this team is and how much crappier he's making it look?

3. "The defense has holes." First, yes they do. We're pretty banged up in addition to our regular weaknesses. The problem is there isn't anything we can do about it. On the other hand, we do have someone else who could play Quarterback, and the fact that he is going to sooner or later spells the inevitable.

Second, what in the world does the defense have to do with Jake Playing like crap? Is that his job?

The funniest was when Alec tried to blame Jake's crap play on the defense by saying that their "bend-don't-break" method puts Jake in bad field position. He seems to think that when Jake is turning the ball over in our own redzone over and over, or even going three-and-out five times in a row it's more acceptable than our defense not sacking offense's back to their own one yard line over and over.

4. "Jake won a lot of games for us/took us to the playoffs three times." This is true, but that was then and this is now. Players change. Consider these men: Brad Johnson, Drew Bledsoe, Kurt Warner. These are all men who have played in and/or won super bowls. Do they look like they could win a super bowl now? Are they playing like they could? What happened? What about all they've done?! Doesn't it count for something? Nope. It's about now. I'd give my right nut for 2005 Jake or even 2003 Jake.

5. "Jake is what he is. Why are you upset by this?" Surprised I put this one up here? Some of you calling for a change are even making this mistake. The idea that "this is the same Jake" we've always had also isn't true.

While there are some of the same problems we've always seen, he's playing some of the worst football of his career here. This is worse than even 2004 because then Jake was at least putting up big yards and scoring touchdowns. This year it's just all incompletions and interceptions other than big plays where Javon largely stole the ball from a defender or took a short pass and broke it for a big TD. I don't think we'll ever see anything as bad as his play in 1999, but 2002 or 1998? It's starting to look that way...

6. "Well Shanahan hasn't made the change. If Jay were really better he would put him in like Foster or Nash." If anyone really thinks the implications for changing an underachieving right tackle are the same as switching out your starting QB, you are insane.

7. "We're winning now." This is the only argument that has any merit, but I still disagree. Sure, "why change horses mid-stream?" Because your horse has almost gotten you drowned and managed to do so once already. Slap's analogy of clinging to a rock in a flood was spot on.

I think that it also sends a bad message to the veterans and players who were replaced during the season when you don't hold every position accountable. I think we put Jay in based on fairness, even if it means losing games in the short term. If we make the change, when Jay starts to struggle Jake can put it on himself for playing poorly enough to lose the support of his coaches and letting his teammates down.

8. "Jake is just having some struggles/a bad start." This one is the funniest because it suggests he's only hit some bumps here and there. If you can't see with your own eyes how bad he is, then I don't know what to say. Then again I saw Foster getting owned every week and some people seemed to think I was making that up, so I guess that's that.

9. "It's not Jake! I blame (Rod Smith/Mike Heimerdinger/the whole offense/Mike Shanahan saving the "real" stuff for later/no running game/Receivers can't get open/loss of Kubiak/new players/ et al) for making him look bad!" This is also funny because suddenly it's everyone else's fault. Despite clear evidence (Jake repeatedly throwing balls behind his receivers for example) that Jake himself is a large part of the problem, people still try and pretend really he's fine and the whole team is just out of whack. Consider these facts:

The running game is fine. The receivers, including Rod, are getting open, the protection has been pretty good (sacks are low). It's hard to see a problem on offense. Also, anyone who thinks Shanahan is saving plays for a certain opponent is being ridiculous. He designs new plays and scripts for each opponent and if you ask EVERY player in the league they'll tell you that watching tape of Shanahan against other opponents is pointless because he never uses the same thing twice! So shut up with the "he's saving it" crap!

The arguments to keep him in don't hold water. The only thing that can save him is solid play the rest of the year. After 9 games, I don't see that happening.

Love the post Kahn, I just want to be sure what the take away is from it & this thread. Fontaine is posting facts that prove Jake is playing poorly & you have stated the argumets from most Jake supporters.

I don't see what we can as fans but sit in Jake's stink & watch each week until Shanny pulls him. I see Jake as an inconsistent player who has run his course here. I cannot love him anymore & I cannot wait to leave him. I think we are wasting a great performance by our red zone D this year on Jake.

Looks like our Fate of having a good QB & SB caliber D may not line up this year. Syncronicity is a madding thing.

[NodJello]

How were his stats last year when our backs finnished with a combined 2000 yards and we were averaging over 100 ypg? Last year our Run game was alot better and the Line seemed more in-sync...We just changed both of our Tackles we dont have a back that can handle the load and together they have done nothing this season. How did Jake do last season with a good Running game again?

Preach it! So true.

[Kaylore]

Love the post Kahn, I just want to be sure what the take away is from it & this thread. Fontaine is posting facts that prove Jake is playing poorly & you have stated the argumets from most Jake supporters.

I don't see what we can as fans but sit in Jake's stink & watch each week until Shanny pulls him. I see Jake as an inconsistent player who has run his course here. I cannot love him anymore & I cannot wait to leave him. I think we are wasting a great performance by our red zone D this year on Jake.

Looks like our Fate of having a good QB & SB caliber D may not line up this year. Syncronicity is a madding thing.

The point is discussion football on a Broncos board. Of course none of us have any say one way or another, but it's fun to talk about it. :)

[Bronco Bob]

Here's the WORST stat of all:

Our great Defense has only given up 8 TDs so far. They are on pace for a record breaking season.

Meanwhile almost half of the TDs they have given up (3) have come about when Jake Plummer has turned the ball over and given the other team starting field position INSIDE THE RED ZONE!




This is a sad stat. Our D would have had a tremendous record that could have stood for the ages if not for terrible play from Blunder.

OTOH, at least 5 TD's were given up by the defense when Jake was having
an excellent game, 1 against the Pats, 2 against the Colts, and 2 against the
Steelers. Our D would also have a tremendous record if they could generate
a pass rush so teams wouldn't be able to pass their way down the field.

[DeusExManning]

I listen to a podcast every day 1st and 15 from ESPN with Jeremy Green. He mentioned today based on a close source he has with the team that Jake has never been closer to being pulled as he was during the Oakland game.

[broncosteven]

[Quote:
Originally Posted by fontaine View Post]
Here's the WORST stat of all:

OTOH, at least 5 TD's were given up by the defense when Jake was having
an excellent game, 1 against the Pats, 2 against the Colts, and 2 against the
Steelers. Our D would also have a tremendous record if they could generate
a pass rush so teams wouldn't be able to pass their way down the field.

The Pats TD was in Garbage time after 3 games with out surrendering a TD, you can do nothing more but applaud that 4 game stretch!

I didn't like the 433 Passing yards given up in the Pitt game we were lucky the D came up with those picks. I will take the win on the road though.

In the RED Zone we have a great D.

[Master___Pain]

I want the players on the field to be the ones that give the broncos the best chance to win. Period. If that's Jake Plummer, fine. If that's Preston Parson, fine. Just win the damn game and I am happy. I've had Plummer's back, but if he's not winning I want him the hell out of there.

[fontaine]

So, Plummer has had a terribly mixed, inconsistent season. So what? And calling people who like the wins "apologists" or "unrealistic" or some other dumarsed, derisive name is just BS. As has been said before: if they win, who gives a sh*t if you or anyone else is unhappy with the ugly win?


I stand behind my team come hell or high water. I will support this team come what may. Even in the Oakland meltdown I finished almost every single post saying that all we need is one good drive by Plummer.

This thread though, isn't about ugly wins. It's about facts.

F-A-C-T-S about Plummer's play and how he's putting tremendous amount of pressure on the offense and defense. I've given plenty of opportunities to Plummer fans to post facts about how he's an asset to this offense but so far all I've seen is vague notions of his leadership (isn't leadership defined by your actions on the field) and counter arguments about how Shanahan doesn't want to make a switch.

As a fan I have every right to demand better from a highly critically position especially when our QB is near the bottom of the league in nearly every stat and THAT is what this thread is all about.

[fontaine]

I'm going to laugh at this post to keep from crying.

You know what Slap? I've reconciled myself with Plummer as the starting QB.

But this thread is also meant to be hope for the future. If our defense/Shanahan/offense can overcome a mistake prone QB who's having one of the worst seasons in recent memory and we're still 7-2 then I take a lot of hope from knowing that we're giving Jay Cutler every chance to succeed when he does take over the job.

I liken it a lot to the Chargers situation. Rivers walked into a dream job with a tremendous rushing game, a playmaker at TE and a tremendous defense.

Jay will have that luxury and even if he struggles like Jake has done this season then we'll know that we've got a defense led by Larry Coyer that can carry this team and a legendary coach who can gameplan even around one of the worst QBs in the league to a 7-2 record.

:thumbsup:

[Rock Chalk]

Jake had an awesome season last year. I really wish that guy would come back.

But I thought we were talking about his individual play this season.

I'm just using facts (not opinions) to see what Jake has brought to the table this season.

Please feel free to do the same.

5 game winning drives this year, 1 game tying drive in the fourth quarter in addition to one of the aforementioned 5 game winning drives 1 of those was an OT winning drive.

Thats what Jake has brought to the table.

GAME WINNING DRIVES.

But, his int per pass ratio sucks. He can throw 30 ints and 15 TDs all year long as long as he keeps getting the job done at the end of the game I dont care.

Stats are for statisticians. Fans just want the W.

But looking at your "facts", what does that tell you about Cutler? He cant beat out this schmuck, how bad must he suck?

[Smiling Assassin27]

luckily, individual statistics don't mean squat in a game with 10 other players on the field. heck, dan marino and peyton manning are testaments to that. the team is 39-13 with one AFC title game appearance with Jake on the field and 0-0 with Cutler.

I trust Shanahan to tell me who the better qb is for his team, regardless of individual statistics--you should too.

[Atlas]

I find these threads useless and utterly senseless.

Waste of bandwidth.

[Master___Pain]

I find these threads useless and utterly senseless.

Waste of bandwidth.

I find the lack of Kyla in your avatar quite depressing:pity:

[Smiling Assassin27]

I find the lack of Kyla in your avatar quite depressing:pity:

^5

what he said...

[fontaine]

Another thing people don't wish to discuss is Rod Smith. He no longer gets the seperation he use to, and it often takes a pin point accurate throw to get it to him. The window of opportunity for a completion is considerably smaller, and with accuracy not a high point with Plummer I think that is also hurting the offensive production.

Pin point accuracy huh? Is that what you call the hospital pass Jake threw to Rod at the goal line when Rod had to literally scoop up the ball right above the blades of grass and it prevented him from running free to score the go ahead TD?

I understand Rod is slowing. The guy is 36. The coaches, in their wisdom, obviously realized this as well which is why we paid big bucks and 2nd round pick to a young pro bowl stud in Walker who is ten times the WR Lelie ever was. Jake has better WRs this year than he did all last year.

But what I truely find remarkable, is that you're willing to acknowledge an old warrior like Rod is slowing down, but yet no such thought process applies to Jake. It's clear the NFL has devised a defense to counter Jake which has worked quite successfully since last year in the playoffs and it involves stacking 8-9 men in the box and daring Plummer to beat them over the top.

Apparently when there might be a strong case that Jake can't beat this type of defense, instead of analyzing why and realizing that it is possible that Jake is over the hill and at the end of his career, I get told to stop whining and support Jake.

[fontaine]

5 game winning drives this year, 1 game tying drive in the fourth quarter in addition to one of the aforementioned 5 game winning drives 1 of those was an OT winning drive.

Thats what Jake has brought to the table.

GAME WINNING DRIVES.


I'll take your word for it, but yes, Jake has bounced back strong after having awful, awful starts and putting this team into a hole. I guess you're thankful for Jake digging us out of a hole he created himself.

But, his int per pass ratio sucks. He can throw 30 ints and 15 TDs all year long as long as he keeps getting the job done at the end of the game I dont care.

Stats are for statisticians. Fans just want the W.

But looking at your "facts", what does that tell you about Cutler? He cant beat out this schmuck, how bad must he suck?

You've answered you're own question. As long as we keep winning, largely thanks to a great defense, we shouldn't make a QB change. But as Plummer confessed, he knows that if they start losing games then he'll be benched.

[fontaine]

luckily, individual statistics don't mean squat in a game with 10 other players on the field. heck, dan marino and peyton manning are testaments to that. the team is 39-13 with one AFC title game appearance with Jake on the field and 0-0 with Cutler.

I trust Shanahan to tell me who the better qb is for his team, regardless of individual statistics--you should too.

Actually you couldn't be more wrong. Shanahan, virtually the entire NFL considers the most important stat after points scored/given up to be turnovers. Something Jake himself has acknowledged.

[GonzoLays]

Guess what, people? For all your insensate whining, Jake Plummer is the QB. He is going to start against San Diego. All the bitching, crying, and moaning won't stop Mike Shanahan from scribbling Jake's name as the starter. There is nothing you can do about it but bitch about this on a message board for 7 months of your wasted lives. Bitch, bitch, bitch watch Jake Plummer throw some more passes. Bitch, bitch, bitch watch Jake lead us to another victory. Bitch, bitch, bitch watch Jay sitting on the sidelines as you call out his name in vain. "JAY! JAY! We need you!!!" WHAAA!!! Let us start thread 3,000 about our favorite binky. Our binky can be the first rookie to ever lead a team to the promise land.

It has reached a comical and cruel apex -- your favorite team is winning but you can't stop bitching. Utterly pathetic.

Cheers to seeing Jake QB this team for the rest of season and watching the same crew of whiners bitch about it all the way through!

Get use to these sights because there is not a damn thing you can do about it. BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!

http://www.cnnsi.com/magazine/features/si50/states/idaho/essay/p1_plummer.jpg

http://images.google.com/url?q=http://espndeportes-att.espn.go.com/2003/photos2006/0920/a_cutler_vt.jpg&usg=__DXFMkXYpfYX-0u0FHg4PfJwdJv4=

[Atlas]

I find the lack of Kyla in your avatar quite depressing:pity:


Me too

[Master___Pain]

Me too

Did you lose a bet or something?

[fontaine]

Guess what, people? For all your insensate whining, Jake Plummer is the QB. He is going to start against San Diego. All the b****ing, crying, and moaning won't stop Mike Shanahan from scribbling Jake's name as the starter. There is nothing you can do about it but b**** about this on a message board for 7 months of your wasted lives. b****, b****, b**** watch Jake Plummer throw some more passes. b****, b****, b**** watch Jake lead us to another victory. b****, b****, b**** watch Jay sitting on the sidelines as you call out his name in vain. "JAY! JAY! We need you!!!" WHAAA!!! Let us start thread 3,000 about our favorite binky. Our binky can be the first rookie to ever lead a team to the promise land.

It has reached a comical and cruel apex -- your favorite team is winning but you can't stop b****ing. Utterly pathetic.

Cheers to seeing Jake QB this team for the rest of season and watching the same crew of whiners b**** about it all the way through!

Get use to these sights because there is not a damn thing you can do about it. BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!


Actually one of the only posts that comes close to whining in this thread is the "post" you just made.

I clearly stated at the start of the thread that it was about facts and backed it up.

~When Jake went on his miracle interception free run last year there were plenty of posts made based on facts (how many passes/quarters he's gone without throwing an int). Did you consider that whining as well.

[Cito Pelon]

. . . . . .The only thing that can save him is solid play the rest of the year. After 9 games, I don't see that happening.

You just have to be patient. You stated on a thread about RB's that Shanny's judgment has to be respected. That goes for QB's also.

Maybe the results in the game would be the same w/Jay and he would be gaining valuable experience. Apparently, Shanny doesn't see it that way. You just have to be patient, it was definitely way too risky to put the kid in the first 9 games. And I think it still is too risky. If Shanny wants to roll the dice on the kid and the season, that's ok with me, but it in the meantime I'm going to stay patient and let the team and staff decide if/when to play the kid.

You and many other posters have yourselves convinced it's just like flipping a switch, all the good things Jake does will stay the same and probably get better, and if all the bad things stay the same, there's still an upside to the kid. I don't see it that way, and apparently the players and staff think the same, or at least enough to where Shanny is not going to make the switch.

My friend, it is just too risky to make this change right now. As the season progresses maybe you'll see it happen, and if it does we'll see how it turns out. And the same goes for if the switch does not happen, we'll just have to see how it turns out. You've been torturing yourself for 9 weeks now, give it a rest. Jake surely did not help himself at Oakland, although Shanny himself said there's a lot of things that have to be looked at when you see INT's, not just the QB.

I can see the staff trying to find the O combination that is going to click best, and if I was in Shanny's position in staff meetings I'd be asking the staff if they thought Jay could do a better job than Jake has, and if it is worth the risk to make the change. So far Jake gets the nod, and I'm fine with that. Caution is often the better part of valor. Hell, Peyton Manning had a hard time figuring out D's his first year.

There is a lot to be said for knowing exactly what you have to work with when it comes to an employee or colleague, how they're going to react in a situation, what you can say to them, camaraderie, knowing you've been through battles with them before and knowing exactly what you have. The bottom line is it is just too risky to roll the dice right now with an unknown quantity. There's some flexibility in the situation, sure, but before this it was definitely not the time to swap, and there wasn't a huge change in the situation last Sunday.

SD is coming to town, then at KC on a short week, then Seattle at Mile High. You're going to have to relax and see what that stretch brings, at least. If the O is still stuttering and stammering after these next three, maybe you'll get your wish. We'll see how it turns out.

[Master___Pain]

You just have to be patient. You stated on a thread about RB's that Shanny's judgment has to be respected. That goes for QB's also.

Maybe the results in the game would be the same w/Jay and he would be gaining valuable experience. Apparently, Shanny doesn't see it that way. You just have to be patient, it was definitely way too risky to put the kid in the first 9 games. And I think it still is too risky. If Shanny wants to roll the dice on the kid and the season, that's ok with me, but it in the meantime I'm going to stay patient and let the team and staff decide if/when to play the kid.

You and many other posters have yourselves convinced it's just like flipping a switch, all the good things Jake does will stay the same and probably get better, and if all the bad things stay the same, there's still an upside to the kid. I don't see it that way, and apparently the players and staff think the same, or at least enough to where Shanny is not going to make the switch.

My friend, it is just too risky to make this change right now. As the season progresses maybe you'll see it happen, and if it does we'll see how it turns out. And the same goes for if the switch does not happen, we'll just have to see how it turns out. You've been torturing yourself for 9 weeks now, give it a rest. Jake surely did not help himself at Oakland, although Shanny himself said there's a lot of things that have to be looked at when you see INT's, not just the QB.

I can see the staff trying to find the O combination that is going to click best, and if I was in Shanny's position in staff meetings I'd be asking the staff if they thought Jay could do a better job than Jake has, and if it is worth the risk to make the change. So far Jake gets the nod, and I'm fine with that. Caution is often the better part of valor. Hell, Peyton Manning had a hard time figuring out D's his first year.

There is a lot to be said for knowing exactly what you have to work with when it comes to an employee or colleague, how they're going to react in a situation, what you can say to them, camaraderie, knowing you've been through battles with them before and knowing exactly what you have. The bottom line is it is just too risky to roll the dice right now with an unknown quantity. There's some flexibility in the situation, sure, but before this it was definitely not the time to swap, and there wasn't a huge change in the situation last Sunday.

SD is coming to town, then at KC on a short week, then Seattle at Mile High. You're going to have to relax and see what that stretch brings, at least. If the O is still stuttering and stammering after these next three, maybe you'll get your wish. We'll see how it turns out.

Classy post there Cito. Well stated, not argumentative, no name calling and quite rational. I agree, and I am in the same boat.

[labronx]

Classy post there Cito. Well stated, not argumentative, no name calling and quite rational. I agree, and I am in the same boat.

It's definately classy but not first class, in terms of factual information or like our backup quaterback.

You might as well preach the gospel...Patience?

The year 2000 came and went and no sniff of the messiah or the Y2K crash.
patience???

I bet the the opposit will apply to Plummer and our championship dreams.
The end of the season will come and go and the messiah will never show up and our championship dreams will come crashing.

Patience? on an 11 year QB that has 4 OTP and 4 Training Camps and 8 Mini Camps under Mike Shanahan?

please...

[Atlas]

You are so right!!
Guess what, people? For all your insensate whining, Jake Plummer is the QB. He is going to start against San Diego. All the b****ing, crying, and moaning won't stop Mike Shanahan from scribbling Jake's name as the starter. There is nothing you can do about it but b**** about this on a message board for 7 months of your wasted lives. b****, b****, b**** watch Jake Plummer throw some more passes. b****, b****, b**** watch Jake lead us to another victory. b****, b****, b**** watch Jay sitting on the sidelines as you call out his name in vain. "JAY! JAY! We need you!!!" WHAAA!!! Let us start thread 3,000 about our favorite binky. Our binky can be the first rookie to ever lead a team to the promise land.

It has reached a comical and cruel apex -- your favorite team is winning but you can't stop b****ing. Utterly pathetic.

Cheers to seeing Jake QB this team for the rest of season and watching the same crew of whiners b**** about it all the way through!

Get use to these sights because there is not a damn thing you can do about it. BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!

http://www.cnnsi.com/magazine/features/si50/states/idaho/essay/p1_plummer.jpg

http://images.google.com/url?q=http://espndeportes-att.espn.go.com/2003/photos2006/0920/a_cutler_vt.jpg&usg=__DXFMkXYpfYX-0u0FHg4PfJwdJv4=

[Atlas]

This topic should be put to rest until the offseason.
http://www.cnnsi.com/magazine/features/si50/states/idaho/essay/p1_plummer.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o20/speardog/untitled.jpg

[Northman]

I say Gonzo and his followers quit whining about the whining. Than all will be well.

[SprintRightOption]

Here's some quick stats about Cutler:

He has thrown zero interceptions.

He has thrown zero "near interceptions".

He has not forced any balls into double or triple coverage.

He is the tallest QB on the roster.

He is expected to live longer than all other QBs on the roster.

He attended a school that is substantially more difficult academically than Arizona State.

He can throw a football farther than Jake Plummer.

He is the object of many people's maturbatory fantasies, included several men on this board.

He has a contract that lasts more years than anyone else in the offensive backfield.


---When you look at the facts, it is a lead pipe lock that he is worlds better than Jake Plummer. I say we fire Shanahan if he doesn't start the best QB in the next game or two.

[errand]

But somehow, John freakin' Kitna is kicking Plummer a$$ on almost every single QB measure:

.

Except the most imporatant one...games won

I don't know about you guys, but I'm pretty sure that fans in Baltimore could have cared less that Trent Dilfer tossed only 13 TD's (vs 12 ints, BTW) the year they won SBXXXIV

I don't care who lines(Jake, Jay, Mike himself) up under center, just as long as when the game is over the Broncos have more points than the team they played.

Worry about how the team is doing...not any one player.

[BroncoFanCam]

Fontaine has owned all of fantsay land.

Get with the program people, it's right in front of your face.

See it, read it, and know the truth.

[errand]

Ask yourself this question: If Jake was even playing average, wouldn't we be dominating teams with the type of rushing game/Defense we have?

Here's a few truths....

[] Broncos are 1-1 in games where they have scored 31 points.

[] Broncos are 6-1 in games where they haven't scored even close to 30 points.

[] Broncos are 1-0 against the defending NFL champions.

[errand]

haha! There's so many good points in your post Kaylore. Quality stuff.

I just have to comment that I think it's amusing when people try to blame Plummer's problems on the defense giving up field position. Just when I can't imagine a worse argument, someone comes in with the take that Shanahan is hiding the "good" plays.

The only fun part of watching Jake this season in to watch folks come up with increasingly ridiculous ways of putting blame on everyone but Plummer, while creating excuse after excuse for the guy. The latest one blames Javon Walker for a Plummer interception. I guess the only thing a person can do is roll their eyes and laugh.

You defended Griese for 4 years, so you really shouldn't be blasting anyone defending another Broncos QB...even Craig Penrose.

As for you saying the defense giving up alot of yards here lateley doesn't hinder Jake, does that mean Jake and O putting the D on a short field doesn't hinder their effectiveness?

I think having to drive 80+ yards to score is just as bad as having to defend 20 or less.

[Atlas]

Except the most imporatant one...games won

I don't know about you guys, but I'm pretty sure that fans in Baltimore could have cared less that Trent Dilfer tossed only 13 TD's (vs 12 ints, BTW) the year they won SBXXXIV

I don't care who lines(Jake, Jay, Mike himself) up under center, just as long as when the game is over the Broncos have more points than the team they played.

Worry about how the team is doing...not any one player.

Where you been errand?

Good point

[errand]

Apparently, unearthing new excuses for why it's everyone else's fault but Jake is what passes for in depth analysis.

...worked for you for 4 years.

[errand]

But looking at your "facts", what does that tell you about Cutler? He cant beat out this schmuck, how bad must he suck?

And there it is in a nutshell. How good can Cutler truly be right now at this pijnt of his career if he cannot unseat what has been statistically supported the NFL's worst QB?

If Cutler is "just as good" as Jake(and going by the "facts " posted in this thread how could he not be better?) then why wouldn't Mike give the kid a chance? Even if the kid played like crap, all Mike would have to say is he was trying to speed the kid's development up.

They act like Mike wouldn't dare start a rookie, BS. He started Mike Bell instead of Tatum Bell this year. TD started ahead of several vets. Griese had all of 3 live bullets in regular season games before being named the starter.

Jake starts because in Mike's opinion he outperforms Jay in practice, and gives us the best chance to win games and go to the Super Bowl.....and Mike's opinion is all that matters to Pat Bowlen and the team....not yours, not mine, not Myra Fleeners.

BTW, if you supported Griese for all those years, you have no place to blast anyone defending Jake....at least Jake wins games and takes us to the playoffs.

[errand]

Where you been errand?

Good point

Well, to be honest, these message boards sometimes get my blood boiling (especially the political ones, which is why you'll notice I've not frequented them in about 2 months now) and so I've been staying away from them because (Spider's gonna laugh at this one) I'm growing in my faith more as a Christian these days, and to be quite frank, these boards are temptation for me to not act like one. I get very argumentative, and have on occasion resorted to name calling, etc...and that's not the way God wants me to be.

Anyways, the point is we're 7-2 and winning football games....this constant complaining about who our QB is is worthless. BTW, Craig Morton led us to the SB in a season where he didn't throw for 2000 yards or 20 TD's...the D carried us then, and it might have to carry us this year as well. I care less...as long as they keep winning games.

[Sassy]

Rascal:
" This offense is a one trick pony...Javon Walker. Outside Javon nobody gives defensive coordinators nightmares or even mild heart burn. Scheffler has been a disappointment at TE, Tatum hasn't shown his explosiveness from last year, and our o-line is considerably worse then previous years. People will point to Jake for our offensive problems, but IMO it's not just him."

Good answer! When we don't have a good running game going...isn't that when Jake has most of his problems....he seems to want to do "too much" to makeup for it and it costs him in INT/Fumbles.

[errand]

Good answer! When we don't have a good running game going...isn't that when Jake has most of his problems....he seems to want to do "too much" to makeup for it and it costs him in INT/Fumbles.


Good point...

When your QB is throwing because he has to vs throwing because he wants to it does seem to increae the chances of a turnover. Like they say, "only three things can happen when you throw the ball...and two of them aren't good."

[Sassy]

Lack of protection, Pretty much Javon Walker and no running game or an inconsistent running game and a guy who likes to play his heart out...gee, I wonder what this does to increase INT/Fumbles. ???
Oh yeah, according to Mock, STG and I are just women fans...what do we know about football ;D :devil: Anyway...

[Jetmeck]

simply put jake is 7-2 this year nuff said


This barely getting by crap will bite uS in the arse come playoff time.......again !

[Jetmeck]

I got this one... Here's the usual suspect of defense's and why they're flawed.

1. "He wins games." Does he? Look at Shanahan's win record before Jake Plummer!...oh crap. Now look at Jake's win record without Shanahan. What do you notice? Now some will say "but that's because the Cardinals sucked those years!" Yes they did. Yes they did indeed.

2. "But he had (insert number) good drives at the end of (insert game he almost botched)!" I don't get why people think making big mistakes again and again, every game is ok as long as you win. People say "well he didn't cost us any games." Does anyone else realize how good the rest of this team is and how much crappier he's making it look?

3. "The defense has holes." First, yes they do. We're pretty banged up in addition to our regular weaknesses. The problem is there isn't anything we can do about it. On the other hand, we do have someone else who could play Quarterback, and the fact that he is going to sooner or later spells the inevitable.

Second, what in the world does the defense have to do with Jake Playing like crap? Is that his job?

The funniest was when Alec tried to blame Jake's crap play on the defense by saying that their "bend-don't-break" method puts Jake in bad field position. He seems to think that when Jake is turning the ball over in our own redzone over and over, or even going three-and-out five times in a row it's more acceptable than our defense not sacking offense's back to their own one yard line over and over.

4. "Jake won a lot of games for us/took us to the playoffs three times." This is true, but that was then and this is now. Players change. Consider these men: Brad Johnson, Drew Bledsoe, Kurt Warner. These are all men who have played in and/or won super bowls. Do they look like they could win a super bowl now? Are they playing like they could? What happened? What about all they've done?! Doesn't it count for something? Nope. It's about now. I'd give my right nut for 2005 Jake or even 2003 Jake.

5. "Jake is what he is. Why are you upset by this?" Surprised I put this one up here? Some of you calling for a change are even making this mistake. The idea that "this is the same Jake" we've always had also isn't true.

While there are some of the same problems we've always seen, he's playing some of the worst football of his career here. This is worse than even 2004 because then Jake was at least putting up big yards and scoring touchdowns. This year it's just all incompletions and interceptions other than big plays where Javon largely stole the ball from a defender or took a short pass and broke it for a big TD. I don't think we'll ever see anything as bad as his play in 1999, but 2002 or 1998? It's starting to look that way...

6. "Well Shanahan hasn't made the change. If Jay were really better he would put him in like Foster or Nash." If anyone really thinks the implications for changing an underachieving right tackle are the same as switching out your starting QB, you are insane.

7. "We're winning now." This is the only argument that has any merit, but I still disagree. Sure, "why change horses mid-stream?" Because your horse has almost gotten you drowned and managed to do so once already. Slap's analogy of clinging to a rock in a flood was spot on.

I think that it also sends a bad message to the veterans and players who were replaced during the season when you don't hold every position accountable. I think we put Jay in based on fairness, even if it means losing games in the short term. If we make the change, when Jay starts to struggle Jake can put it on himself for playing poorly enough to lose the support of his coaches and letting his teammates down.

8. "Jake is just having some struggles/a bad start." This one is the funniest because it suggests he's only hit some bumps here and there. If you can't see with your own eyes how bad he is, then I don't know what to say. Then again I saw Foster getting owned every week and some people seemed to think I was making that up, so I guess that's that.

9. "It's not Jake! I blame (Rod Smith/Mike Heimerdinger/the whole offense/Mike Shanahan saving the "real" stuff for later/no running game/Receivers can't get open/loss of Kubiak/new players/ et al) for making him look bad!" This is also funny because suddenly it's everyone else's fault. Despite clear evidence (Jake repeatedly throwing balls behind his receivers for example) that Jake himself is a large part of the problem, people still try and pretend really he's fine and the whole team is just out of whack. Consider these facts:

The running game is fine. The receivers, including Rod, are getting open, the protection has been pretty good (sacks are low). It's hard to see a problem on offense. Also, anyone who thinks Shanahan is saving plays for a certain opponent is being ridiculous. He designs new plays and scripts for each opponent and if you ask EVERY player in the league they'll tell you that watching tape of Shanahan against other opponents is pointless because he never uses the same thing twice! So shut up with the "he's saving it" crap!

The arguments to keep him in don't hold water. The only thing that can save him is solid play the rest of the year. After 9 games, I don't see that happening.

Nice post !

[freak6]

Good point...

When your QB is throwing because he has to vs throwing because he wants to it does seem to increae the chances of a turnover. Like they say, "only three things can happen when you throw the ball...and two of them aren't good."

I guess that would explain why Jake has thrown 4 interceptions on first down and no Touchdowns and also why he played pretty damn well vs the Steelers who shut down our running game.

[freak6]

Lack of protection, Pretty much Javon Walker and no running game or an inconsistent running game and a guy who likes to play his heart out...gee, I wonder what this does to increase INT/Fumbles. ???
Oh yeah, according to Mock, STG and I are just women fans...what do we know about football ;D :devil: Anyway...

This mythic lack of protection has not lead to any of Jake's interceptions. Nice try though.

[Jetmeck]

Lack of protection, Pretty much Javon Walker and no running game or an inconsistent running game and a guy who likes to play his heart out...gee, I wonder what this does to increase INT/Fumbles. ???
Oh yeah, according to Mock, STG and I are just women fans...what do we know about football ;D :devil: Anyway...


Jake is directly responsible for the lack of consistent running. They are stacking the box consistently because they know he can't beat them. He has to be consistent enough to get the defense to back off then we run run and pass effectively. Surely you see this ?

[freak6]

Jake is directly responsible for the lack of consistent running. They are stacking the box consistently because they know he can't beat them. He has to be consistent enough to get the defense to back off then we run run and pass effectively. <b> Surely you see this ?

Blinded by ignorance/allegiance. It's like talking to a wall. Kaylore and Fontaine have destroyed them on this thread, and yet they just continue to quote eachothers BS back and forth to eachother until in thier heads it becomes fact.

Hilarious!

[Sassy]

It's kind of fun egging you guys on! LOL!
You like to get sucked into "ANY ARGUMENT" on Jake, hook, line and sinker ;D

[fontaine]

Here's a few truths....

[] Broncos are 1-1 in games where they have scored 31 points.

[] Broncos are 6-1 in games where they haven't scored even close to 30 points.

[] Broncos are 1-0 against the defending NFL champions.


Except the most imporatant one...games won

Once again, I created this thread about Jake's individual performance this season.

I find it interesting that you have to defend Plummer using TEAM wins rather than individual accomplishments this season.

And once again, I am not advocating we start the rookie. I personally think Jay will struggle if put in now, as has Jake. No difference really.

But I refuse to blindly just support Plummer just because we're winning. We are winning despite Plummer, not because of him.

So go ahead, and list some individual accomplishments that Jake has brought to the table this season.

[fontaine]

Lack of protection, Pretty much Javon Walker and no running game or an inconsistent running game and a guy who likes to play his heart out...gee, I wonder what this does to increase INT/Fumbles. ???


Lack of protection? Uhh. . . No. Plummer was still stinkin' up the place with Lepsis in there. He's only been sacked what 13 times in 9 games?

Javon Walker and no running game? Uhh . . . No. Our running game has struggled in the past two games, but up to that point our running game was one of the best in the league and Plummer still struggled. Walker has taken over the #1 role and Rod Smith is a better WR than Lelie was for us last year.

But again, what facts do you have to support Plummer's individual play this season? Or do you always point the finger at someone else to excuse Plummer's shortcomings.

[fontaine]

Rascal:
Good answer! When we don't have a good running game going...isn't that when Jake has most of his problems....he seems to want to do "too much" to makeup for it and it costs him in INT/Fumbles.

That's the problem with opinions, it's an endless circle of BS:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2006/11/15/ramblings/every-play-counts/4545/
AFC West
Denver
Javon Walker is the best receiver in the NFL right now. Learning a new offense and playing with a quarterback, Jake Plummer, who’s having a horribly inaccurate year, Walker is on pace to have career highs in receiving yards and yards per catch.

[fontaine]

Anyways, back to facts:


This weekend we host the Chargers and here's how their QB who's in his first year as starter is doing on third downs ( decided to bold the areas where Rivers has better stats )

Rivers:
3rd down 52 comp. 79 attempts 716 yards 65.8 cmp% 9.06ypa 6 TDs 2 ints 109.5 passer rating.

Here's how our 10 year vet is doing who's been in the offense 4 years now:

Plummer:
3rd down 40 comp 77 attempts 512 yards 51.9 cmp% 6.65ypa 5 TDs 4 ints 73.1 passer rating.

Guess what?

The only area where Plummer excels above Rivers on 3rd downs is the number of Interceptions thrown.

What a surprise!
Uhh

[Popps]

Anyways, back to facts:


This weekend we host the Chargers and here's how their first year starting QB is doing on third downs ( decided to bold the areas where Rivers has better stats )

Rivers:
3rd down 52 comp. 79 attempts 716 yards 65.8 cmp% 9.06ypa 6 TDs 2 ints 109.5 passer rating.

Here's how our 10 year vet is doing who's been in the offense 4 years now:

Plummer:
3rd down 40 comp 77 attempts 512 yards 51.9 cmp% 6.65ypa 5 TDs 4 ints 73.1 passer rating.

Guess what?

The only area where Plummer excels above Rivers on 3rd downs is the number of Interceptions thrown.

What a surprise!
Uhh



You trying to push Taco for the "Most Obsessed" 2006 award?

Good lord, dude. Take a break. Get some fresh air or something.

We get it. You don't like the QB.

[16slayer24]

amen goooo JAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[16slayer24]

wasnt rivers on the bench a year maybe 2 years he isnt a 1st year starting QB big difference cutler will be good down the road buit this is jakes year lets win it all

[fontaine]

Here's some more fun facts about our starting QB:

Javon Walker has been a playmaker on offense for us so let's see how Jake is doing in getting him the ball on intermediate/long passes:

Plummer:
Pass Thrown: 21-30 yds. 3 cmp 16 attempts 145 yards 18.8 cmp% 1 TD 1int 0.0 sacks 59.6 passer rating

18.8% completion?

I had a quick check and Andrew Walter, Damon Huard, Noodle armed Chad Pennington, Charlie Frye, Gradkowski all have a better completion rate in those intermediate/long passes.

And you wonder why teams have been stacking the box and line of scrimmage against the run? When the QB is a joke throwing over the top passes then why shouldn't defenses stack 8/9 guys in the box.

Jake strikes as much fear on those passes as a wet kitten on catnip.
-Edit- Sorry, that last sentence was an opinion!

[fontaine]

You trying to push Taco for the "Most Obsessed" 2006 award?

Good lord, dude. Take a break. Get some fresh air or something.

We get it. You don't like the QB.

Those are not F-A-C-T-S.

Try again.

If you want to personally attack me, then well there are plenty of other threads based around opinions where posters can slug it out.

[fontaine]

wasnt rivers on the bench a year maybe 2 years he isnt a 1st year starting QB big difference cutler will be good down the road buit this is jakes year lets win it all

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. What I meant to say by "1st year starting QB" is that it's his first year as the starter!

I'll edit it now.

[Northman]

Those are not F-A-C-T-S.

Try again.

If you want to personally attack me, then well there are plenty of other threads based around opinions where posters can slug it out.



Frankly man, thats all they have left. They cant even follow a thread correctly.

[SprintRightOption]

I like how you are using the small number of sacks for Jake as a negative. Clearly demonstrates another fault.

Fact: Plummer has thrown 3 picks in the second half, less than half the number thrown in the first half.

Fact: Plummer's 4th Quarter QB rating is more than 20 pts higher than his first half rating.

Fact: Plummer is top 5 in QBs running for 1st downs in the league.

Fact: Plummer's play will only be acceptable to the haters if he throws zero more interceptions for the year and throws zero passes in any way overthrown or underthrown, or otherwise outplays Brady, Manning and Brees.

Fact: If the Broncos lose even 1 more game the rest of the year, he will be savagely attacked here.

Guess: Most people seem to think our D is way better than in 2005 or 2003, when it is very similar in points and yards allowed.

Possible Lie: I'm going to have to kick your sister out of bed pretty soon.

[Popps]

Those are not F-A-C-T-S.

Try again.

If you want to personally attack me, then well there are plenty of other threads based around opinions where posters can slug it out.


Hilarious!

Trust me, when I "attack" you, you'll know it. Wound a little tight, are we?

It's all good, dude. Continue the crusade of (highly selective and exclusive of other) facts.

[fontaine]

Frankly man, thats all they have left. They cant even follow a thread correctly.

It's a bit disapointing really, but Jake really hasn't given much to support his cause.

I would love to be in a position where I could our QB as an asset to this team because we have the best scoring defense, a playmaking WR, and a solid Running Game.

Shanahan/Coyer were almost superhuman in their efforts to put together a team that has a better chance of winning it all than in previous years but they (and we) have been severely let down by Plummer. There have been other disapointments to be sure (Courtney Brown, Scheffler, ST) but far and away Jake's performance has been the biggest problem so far.

[Popps]

Frankly man, thats all they have left. They cant even follow a thread correctly.

You guys should share a good cry together.

Seriously. It sounds like this is just tearing you up.

Wait... let me predict the response...

"OH YEA, DUDE... ALL YOU CAN DO IS CALL PEOPLE NAMES BECAUSE YOU DON'T SEE THAT JAKE PLUMMER CAUSES CANCER AND EATS BABIES!!!!"

Hilarious!

[Popps]

It's a bit disapointing really.

Yea, 7-2 is Prozac-city.

Depressing, indeed. Horrible time to be a Broncos fan.

[fontaine]

I like how you are using the small number of sacks for Jake as a negative. Clearly demonstrates another fault.


How so? I didn't mean to have it come across as negative. I like Jake's mobility in the pocket.

Fact: Plummer has thrown 3 picks in the second half, less than half the number thrown in the first half.

Fact: Plummer's 4th Quarter QB rating is more than 20 pts higher than his first half rating.

Fact: Plummer is top 5 in QBs running for 1st downs in the league.

Well done. This sort of stuff gives me hope that Jake can improve. I hope he can translate those performances into playing more consistently in the start of games as well.

Fact: Plummer's play will only be acceptable to the haters if he throws zero more interceptions for the year and throws zero passes in any way overthrown or underthrown, or otherwise outplays Brady, Manning and Brees.

Fact: If the Broncos lose even 1 more game the rest of the year, he will be savagely attacked here.


That's reaching a bit don't you think?

I mean, for example, Jake has already been savagely attacked here!
Ha!

Possible Lie: I'm going to have to kick your sister out of bed pretty soon.

I don't have a sister. But whatever man. Real classy.

[Northman]

Guess: Most people seem to think our D is way better than in 2005 or 2003, when it is very similar in points and yards allowed.





Fact: Points allowed through 10 games (2005) 169

Fact: Points allowed through 10 games (2003) 171

Fact: Points allowed through 10 games (2006) 111


Your right, that is just so close. ::)

[fontaine]

You guys should share a good cry together.

Seriously. It sounds like this is just tearing you up.

Wait... let me predict the response...

"OH YEA, DUDE... ALL YOU CAN DO IS CALL PEOPLE NAMES BECAUSE YOU DON'T SEE THAT JAKE PLUMMER CAUSES CANCER AND EATS BABIES!!!!"

Hilarious!

Yea, 7-2 is Prozac-city.

Depressing, indeed. Horrible time to be a Broncos fan.

Here we go again.

::)

[Northman]

You guys should share a good cry together.

Seriously. It sounds like this is just tearing you up.

Wait... let me predict the response...

"OH YEA, DUDE... ALL YOU CAN DO IS CALL PEOPLE NAMES BECAUSE YOU DON'T SEE THAT JAKE PLUMMER CAUSES CANCER AND EATS BABIES!!!!"

Hilarious!



Oh im not tearing up although i remember not too long ago you were busting my balls about insulting you. Typical hypocrisy coming from you though as usual. But, i give you credit at least your admitting you have nothing left. :thumbsup:

[Popps]

Here we go again.

::)

Oh, sorry dude. I forgot I was only supposed to include facts that fit your agenda, while disregarding other facts.

Anyway, this has been fun.

Stay the course!!

ROFL!

[Popps]

Oh im not tearing up although i remember not too long ago you were busting my balls about insulting you. Typical hypocrisy coming from you though as usual. But, i give you credit at least your admitting you have nothing left. :thumbsup:

"Insulting?"

Please. That's some serious drama-queen ****.

Just having a little fun. Sorry to break up the funeral. But, you know... I have "nothing left." (Whatever that means)

Knock yourselves out!

[Northman]

"Insulting?"

Please. That's some serious drama-queen ****.

Just having a little fun. Sorry to break up the funeral. But, you know... I have "nothing left." (Whatever that means)

Knock yourselves out!



Awesome! now i dont have to read anymore of your dumbass posts in a Jake thread. Thank you! bout time! Woohooo! See ya later chump!

[SprintRightOption]

Fact: Points allowed through 10 games (2005) 169

Fact: Points allowed through 10 games (2003) 171

Fact: Points allowed through 10 games (2006) 111


Your right, that is just so close. ::)

Perfect. Good thing we have played some garbage offenses (Raiders 2x, Ravens, Browns, KC with Huard's first game, etc.) Let's see where we are after 2 SD games, at arrowhead, and Seattle and Cincy too. It may increase by a few points per game.

Fact: 2006 pts allowed: 12.3 (1st) yards 312 (13th)
Fact: 2005 pts allowed: 16.1 (3rd) yards 312 (15th)
Fact: 2003 pts allowed: 18.8 (4th) yards 277 (4th)
Fact: 2004 pts allowed: 19.0 (9th) yards 279 (4th)
Fact: Even in 2002 we were 6th in yards at 302, but 21 ppg

[Northman]

Perfect. Good thing we have played some garbage offenses (Raiders 2x, Ravens, Browns, KC with Huard's first game, etc.) Let's see where we are after 2 SD games, at arrowhead, and Seattle and Cincy too. It may increase by a few points per game.

Fact: 2006 pts allowed: 12.3 (1st) yards 312 (13th)
Fact: 2005 pts allowed: 16.1 (3rd) yards 312 (15th)
Fact: 2003 pts allowed: 18.8 (4th) yards 277 (4th)
Fact: 2004 pts allowed: 19.0 (9th) yards 279 (4th)
Fact: Even in 2002 we were 6th in yards at 302, but 21 ppg



Thats awesome. Can you bring me up the offensive stats from 2005 and 2003? How do they compare to this year? Nice work man.

[SprintRightOption]

Thats awesome. Can you bring me up the offensive stats from 2005 and 2003? How do they compare to this year? Nice work man.

Obviously they were better than this year.

2005: 24.7 ppg (7th), 360 yards (6th)
2004: 23.8 ppg (9th), 396 yards (5th)
2003: 23.8 ppg (10th),350 yards (7th)

This year:
2006: 17.6 ppg (23rd), 309 yards (19th)

Not good, but not the worst in the league. Let's hope we can get the points over 20 at least by the end of the year.

[SprintRightOption]

I guess technically you could drop the 3 TDs (1.3 ppg) scored by Champ and Darrent last year, but the NFL includes it all together

[-Slap-]

To an extent, but we already have a case study to look on: 1999. And considering that benching Bubby freaking Brister was a detremint to team chemistry, I'd suspect the same would likely be true with a better QB. At any rate, I'd rather not make such an "experiment" with a 7-2 team unless it becomes clear the vets would support a switch.

That is total hogwash and I can't believe anybody who followed the team back then believes it.

A) Brister voluntarily abdicated the job by getting drunk every night instead of studying his playbook.

B) That team was tired, and missing John Elway, and looking for any excuse to lay down.

[-Slap-]

5 game winning drives this year, 1 game tying drive in the fourth quarter in addition to one of the aforementioned 5 game winning drives 1 of those was an OT winning drive.

Thats what Jake has brought to the table.

GAME WINNING DRIVES.

But, his int per pass ratio sucks. He can throw 30 ints and 15 TDs all year long as long as he keeps getting the job done at the end of the game I dont care.

Stats are for statisticians. Fans just want the W.

But looking at your "facts", what does that tell you about Cutler? He cant beat out this schmuck, how bad must he suck?

This is sheer comedy. Jake steps on his dick all afternoon, but the defense keeps us close. Then, knowing his job is at stake, Jake manages to get us downfield without screwing up one time and its a GAME WINNING DRIVE.

"Leading" your team to nine (9) points in regulation, plus overtime, at home, against the Kansas City Chiefs is not a positive achievement. Its just sad.

[-Slap-]

Guess what, people? For all your insensate whining, Jake Plummer is the QB. He is going to start against San Diego. All the b****ing, crying, and moaning won't stop Mike Shanahan from scribbling Jake's name as the starter. There is nothing you can do about it but b**** about this on a message board for 7 months of your wasted lives. b****, b****, b**** watch Jake Plummer throw some more passes. b****, b****, b**** watch Jake lead us to another victory. b****, b****, b**** watch Jay sitting on the sidelines as you call out his name in vain. "JAY! JAY! We need you!!!" WHAAA!!! Let us start thread 3,000 about our favorite binky. Our binky can be the first rookie to ever lead a team to the promise land.

It has reached a comical and cruel apex -- your favorite team is winning but you can't stop b****ing. Utterly pathetic.

Cheers to seeing Jake QB this team for the rest of season and watching the same crew of whiners b**** about it all the way through!

Get use to these sights because there is not a damn thing you can do about it. BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!


How about those Celtics, asslicker?

The worst team in the NBA, despite being in a garbage division. Its not even Thanksgiving and their playoff hopes are deader than Red.

[-Slap-]

He is the object of many people's maturbatory fantasies, included several men on this board.


Its not about maturbating over Jay.

Its about being tired of getting ****ed by Jake.

[-Slap-]

I think having to drive 80+ yards to score is just as bad as having to defend 20 or less.

Put this one in the time capsule, please.

Starting an offensive drive from your own 20 (where touchbacks are spotted) is as bad as the offense turning the ball over on their own 20.

:spit:

[BroncoInferno]

That is total hogwash and I can't believe anybody who followed the team back then believes it.

Shanahan has pretty much stated himself that he believes it.

A) Brister voluntarily abdicated the job by getting drunk every night instead of studying his playbook.

The team had confidence in Bubby because they had not missed a beat with him in the lineup in '98. If you don't think that it hurt the chemistry of the team to remove him from the lineup after a couple of bad preseason games for a 3rd round pick with no experience and a flabby arm, I'd say that's hogwash. That isn't to say that Shanny didn't have solid practical reasons to make the switch, but, as he learned, there are more subjective factors involved in making such a move.

B) That team was tired, and missing John Elway, and looking for any excuse to lay down.

That's your opinion. I think the switch hurt the team in the short term, and Shanny has pretty much indicated that he agrees and would have handled things differently in hindsight.

[SprintRightOption]

Possible Lie: I'm going to have to kick your sister out of bed pretty soon.
I don't have a sister. But whatever man. Real classy.

Man, sometimes people are too serious. That wasn't aimed at you, it was aimed at whoever's reading the post. I tell ya the Orange Mane jumped the Shark when the Cutler/Plummer wars heated up in September, so I am hardly every being so serious on here. I'm just making wise cracks and writing comedy half of the time. And I get neg-repped by someone for personal attacks for a joke "Fact: Jay Cutler is a masturbatory fantasy for some here...". I say more comedy, unintentional (watermock) or intentional (Gonzo), because this place needs more of it.

We all need to smoke more weed or drink less coffee, even if that CO proposition was voted down.

Or we should all dogpile on someone who deserves it, like freak. :rofl:

[GonzoLays]

How about those Celtics, asslicker?

The worst team in the NBA, despite being in a garbage division. Its not even Thanksgiving and their playoff hopes are deader than Red.

How about those Lakers, ballslicker?

Let me educate you on the NBA for a second, drag queen.

* The Celtics are the third youngest team in the NBA. As you should know by know, but obviously don't, young teams rarely make the playoffs. Last season, out of the eight youngest teams, seven of them DID NOT make the playoffs. On the other hand, out of the eight oldest teams, seven of them DID MAKE the playoffs.

* We have lost five of our six games by less than five points. Not bad for a team that plays eight guys who have less than four years of experience in the league.

* Last night we beat the Pacers by 28 points after leading Lebron and the Cavs by 25 the night before. The talent is there. But our crutch -- as the case for most young teams -- is closing the deal in the 4th quarter. We will get over that in time.

Since the Celtics are young (5 guys in the rotation that should be in college right now) where do you expect us to be? Leading the league in wins? There are going to be some struggles along the way to the promised land. A bandwagaon fan like yourself (you rarely mention the Lakers anymore since they became irrelevant when Shaq left) doesn't have the gumption to stick with your team when the going gets rough. You claim the Lakers as your squad, but you don't have the faintest clue as to who is on the team or where they are headed. Once they start winning , I'm sure you will be back on the bandwagon acting as if you were there all along. ( I probably know more about the current Lakers then you do.)

When you get a clue about the NBA, get back at me.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Its about being tired of getting ****ed.

Whoa! Is that kosher?

[Meck77]

haha! There's so many good points in your post Kaylore. Quality stuff.

I just have to comment that I think it's amusing when people try to blame Plummer's problems on the defense giving up field position. Just when I can't imagine a worse argument, someone comes in with the take that Shanahan is hiding the "good" plays.

The only fun part of watching Jake this season in to watch folks come up with increasingly ridiculous ways of putting blame on everyone but Plummer, while creating excuse after excuse for the guy. The latest one blames Javon Walker for a Plummer interception. I guess the only thing a person can do is roll their eyes and laugh.

So who do you blame for leaving Jake in the game? Shanny,Bowlen, Sundquist, the veterans on the team who've stated their support for Jake vs the Rook? Who is the "idiot" that doesn't see what you do Taco? I'm just curious.

I've been thinking about this 2006 team and how the expectations are so high that we should win the superbowl...lol

If you compare this team from QB, RB, TE, WRs to kicker it's actually amusing that we think we have a team that should win the SB if we started a rookie QB. The only player that even matches up on offense would probably be a Javon Walker with Rod Smith in his prime on the 97/98 teams.

To think winning the SB lies on the shoulder of one guy is also a joke. Hell you've started a number of thread kissing Manning's ass yet last time I check he has as many SB appearances as Jake does. Zero=Zero all day long.



There is no doubt Jake has struggled in some games but we were in a fight with Indy till the end with the winner having the ball last. That is team that seems destined to get to a SB that hasn't. The defense let us down that game as the O and Jake did their job by hanging 31 points. You can't argue with that.

Anyhow just wanted your take on who is to blame for leaving Jake on the field.

[Circle Orange]

Those are some eye-opening facts. I'd like to post some "devil's advocate" counter-points, but I'm nearly drawing a blank.

I'll say this: Shanny has been quoted that a coach can't just stick a rookie into the lineup and expect the teams - the veterans - to go along happily. He said that the locker room has to be READY for the change. And Jake has made a lotta friends in that locker room. Rod Smith said the idea of starting Cutler wasd "crazy." Coming from Rod, that's a powerful indication of how such a move might go over with the team.

I know, I know, Shanny's the coach and the players should do what they're told. I hear that. But team chemistry and cameraderie are tenuous factors. What if Cutler started at Oakland, threw two picks in the first half, and we lost? Think about that for a minute.

The rookie qb deal depends on the team and situation, usually. Here in DC people are dancing in the streets about putting a rook in (this includes the players). Of course, at 3-whatever the Skins have no shot, so what the blip, you know?

It would be messed up if Jay suddenly starts and Rod is benched for making those comments! :rofl: