Cutler could play no worse than Plummer

[orangenblue]

Our team continues to bail out Plummer. They could just as easy bail out Cutler. No matter what happens this season, I can't wait til next season. Watching Plummer is painful. He plays for our team about every other possession. I wish he could suit up full time for our offense. It's a flat our miracle we won that game yesterday.

[Mile High Mojoe]

Our team continues to bail out Plummer. They could just as easy bail out Cutler. No matter what happens this season, I can't wait til next season. Watching Plummer is painful. He plays for our team about every other possession. I wish he could suit up full time for our offense. It's a flat our miracle we won that game yesterday.

^5

[rbackfactory80]

Here is another groundbreaking thread.

[BizzyBone7]

so can someone clear this up for me, because im getting confused. If Cutler played like Plummer it would be OK? Im no rocket scientist, but either way someones gonna throw 3 picks in a game and still WIN. Why throw a young QB who could be better than Jake into that kind of fire. Bottom Line is Jake isnt playing that bad, he may throw a couple stupid picks but overall hes an above average QB... get over it.

[Smiling Assassin27]

uh, yeah, he actually can play worse than jake. and he has thus far in camp, practices, and everywhere else--thus explaining his puzzling status as...BACKUP. foolish take, man.

[Florida_Bronco]

Our team continues to bail out Plummer. They could just as easy bail out Cutler. No matter what happens this season, I can't wait til next season. Watching Plummer is painful. He plays for our team about every other possession. I wish he could suit up full time for our offense. It's a flat our miracle we won that game yesterday.

Jake really hasn't been getting alot of help from his offense besides Javon and Tatum.

[Northman]

uh, yeah, he actually can play worse than jake. and he has thus far in camp, practices, and everywhere else--thus explaining his puzzling status as...BACKUP. foolish take, man.



You have a link to where it says Jay has played poorly in Practice? Or that he isnt understanding the playbook? This is the first ive heard of this.

[Rock Chalk]

Im curious. If, as everyone keeps pointing out, Jay is better than Plummer, someone PLEASE explain to me why Shanahan is keeping him out of games.

I still cant get over the fact that he hasnt found the field after these Plummer games we ahve witnessed. Clearly, Jake isnt playing up to snuff, or so the Orange Mane geniuses tell me with their profound wisdom and years of coaching experience, so why is that dumbass coach of ours keeping this super stud on the bench?

Someone got any explanation other than "Because I think Jay is better"?

[Clockwork Orange]

so can someone clear this up for me, because im getting confused. If Cutler played like Plummer it would be OK?

Of course it would. There's already a slew of people here who've jockeyed to the front of the line to be designated Cutler apologists, so expect him to replace Brian Griese as the "nothing's ever his fault" guy.

I hope that never comes to pass, as I hope the kid is everything he's cracked upto be. But should he struggle, it'll be just like every QB we've had post-Elway. There will be a faction of those who defend him to the death and those who'll rail on him for everything.

Same old, same old.

[DeusExManning]

Im curious. If, as everyone keeps pointing out, Jay is better than Plummer, someone PLEASE explain to me why Shanahan is keeping him out of games.

I still cant get over the fact that he hasnt found the field after these Plummer games we ahve witnessed. Clearly, Jake isnt playing up to snuff, or so the Orange Mane geniuses tell me with their profound wisdom and years of coaching experience, so why is that dumbass coach of ours keeping this super stud on the bench?

Someone got any explanation other than "Because I think Jay is better"?

I really think that Shanahan was scarred by the "Brister-Griese" debacle and has vowed not to make that mistake again.

[Northman]

Im curious. If, as everyone keeps pointing out, Jay is better than Plummer, someone PLEASE explain to me why Shanahan is keeping him out of games.

I still cant get over the fact that he hasnt found the field after these Plummer games we ahve witnessed. Clearly, Jake isnt playing up to snuff, or so the Orange Mane geniuses tell me with their profound wisdom and years of coaching experience, so why is that dumbass coach of ours keeping this super stud on the bench?

Someone got any explanation other than "Because I think Jay is better"?


Easy, the team is 7-2 even with Jake playing like garbage. Its not rocket science.

[Blart]

Im curious. If, as everyone keeps pointing out, Jay is better than Plummer, someone PLEASE explain to me why Shanahan is keeping him out of games.


I'd like to know as well. Let's hear the conspiracy theories boys! Tell us why you'd make a better decision than Shanahan.

[Florida_Bronco]

Of course it would. There's already a slew of people here who've jockeyed to the front of the line to be designated Cutler apologists, so expect him to replace Brian Griese as the "nothing's ever his fault" guy.

I hope that never comes to pass, as I hope the kid is everything he's cracked upto be. But should he struggle, it'll be just like every QB we've had post-Elway. There will be a faction of those who defend him to the death and those who'll rail on him for everything.

Same old, same old.

That's one of the few things I dislike about football message boards (each one is the same in this respect) because they each have their little camps that hate or love a certain player. Objectivity is really lacking, especially when it comes to quarterbacks.

[-Slap-]

uh, yeah, he actually can play worse than jake. and he has thus far in camp, practices, and everywhere else--thus explaining his puzzling status as...BACKUP. foolish take, man.

Tony Romo is just killing the Cowboys' season, isn't he, SA27?

[Mile High Mojoe]

so can someone clear this up for me, because im getting confused. If Cutler played like Plummer it would be OK? Im no rocket scientist, but either way someones gonna throw 3 picks in a game and still WIN. Why throw a young QB who could be better than Jake into that kind of fire. Bottom Line is Jake isnt playing that bad, he may throw a couple stupid picks but overall hes an above average QB... get over it.

Check that spot between your fro Man, the ONLY reason and I mean the ONLY reason why Jake is still the starter is because we have won games. I can't believe anyone would think that Jake is an above average QB. He saved his job for the short term with his performance in the Colts game. A loss to the Raiders this week and we could of started a new chapter in Broncos football. Now it's delayed another week, maybe longer but it's coming. It may not even be this season but thank God it's coming.

[Arkansas Bronco]

uh, yeah, he actually can play worse than jake. and he has thus far in camp, practices, and everywhere else--thus explaining his puzzling status as...BACKUP. foolish take, man.

This is a matter of chemistry. Once Shanny makes this move that is pretty much it. This isnt RT we are talking about where we can put in the back up and see how it pans out. None of us know how wether or not he is improving or how he looks but I dont think his debut will be a 5 int. game (which is worse then Plummer).

[Rock Chalk]

Easy, the team is 7-2 even with Jake playing like garbage. Its not rocket science.

Wait, Dumbass Ex Shanahan says its the Brister/Griese scar, you say its because we are 7-2.

First of all, Dumbass Ex Shanahan is posturing so I throw his out. Did Shanahan say in any press conference that he is basing his decision to keep the less talented player on the field over a more talented player because we are winning?

What I mean is, Shanny benched Mike Bell over a clearly inferior RB in Nash. He has benched Foster over Meadows (even if for one game) against a sub par team.

Why not the QB? Is Shanny's motto "put the best players on the field" not applicable because we "are winning"? That doesnt seem to be the case at other positions, so what is different about the QB?

Im not being argumentative, I want to know. IF Jay Cutler is that good, how come he isnt on the field? We aren't winning because of the QB Im told and obviously the orange mane community is much more intelligent than I because I see Jake winning games by doing the things that need to be done when they absolutely have to be done. So, clearly Im wrong on this if I go by the community here.

So, why is Cutler o the bench? Its not because we are winning if you listen to the OM, because that has nothign to do with Plummer.

[BizzyBone7]

Check that spot between your fro Man, the ONLY reason and I mean the ONLY reason why Jake is still the starter is because we have won games.

im sorry, isnt that the point to this whole thing is to win games?

and i would have been as pissed as the next guy if they lost to the raiders, but they didnt. And thats the bottom line.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Im curious. If, as everyone keeps pointing out, Jay is better than Plummer, someone PLEASE explain to me why Shanahan is keeping him out of games.

Use the same reasoning, explain this. Why was Mike Bell not activated for this game and Nash was?

Shanahan doesn't always make the right decisions no matter what some think here.

[fontaine]

uh, yeah, he actually can play worse than jake. and he has thus far in camp, practices, and everywhere else--thus explaining his puzzling status as...BACKUP. foolish take, man.

I may be wrong, but Backups usually don't take snaps with the first team during practice so you can't just blatantly say that Jake is outplaying Cutler during practice.

As I said I could be wrong but I think the coaches focus on the starter to get him up to speed and backups don't get a look in during the week at practice with the first team.

Denver may do it differently but please let me know if that's the case.

[BizzyBone7]

Im not being argumentative, I want to know. IF Jay Cutler is that good, how come he isnt on the field? We aren't winning because of the QB Im told and obviously the orange mane community is much more intelligent than I because I see Jake winning games by doing the things that need to be done when they absolutely have to be done. So, clearly Im wrong on this if I go by the community here.

i think this pretty much sums it up

[Clockwork Orange]

Wait, Dumbass Ex Shanahan says its the Brister/Griese scar, you say its because we are 7-2.

First of all, Dumbass Ex Shanahan is posturing so I throw his out. Did Shanahan say in any press conference that he is basing his decision to keep the less talented player on the field over a more talented player because we are winning?

What I mean is, Shanny benched Mike Bell over a clearly inferior RB in Nash. He has benched Foster over Meadows (even if for one game) against a sub par team.

Why not the QB? Is Shanny's motto "put the best players on the field" not applicable because we "are winning"? That doesnt seem to be the case at other positions, so what is different about the QB?

Im not being argumentative, I want to know. IF Jay Cutler is that good, how come he isnt on the field? We aren't winning because of the QB Im told and obviously the orange mane community is much more intelligent than I because I see Jake winning games by doing the things that need to be done when they absolutely have to be done. So, clearly Im wrong on this if I go by the community here.

So, why is Cutler o the bench? Its not because we are winning if you listen to the OM, because that has nothign to do with Plummer.

This is where the whole Plummer/Cutler argument seems to get dicey for the people who're calling for Cutler to start now. While they bash Plummer without mercy, they all seem to pull up when Shanahan and his decision to leave Plummer in are brought into the discussion. Apparently no one wants to rip Shanahan, so that pent up angst keeps getting heaped on Plummer.

I asked that question weeks ago (Where's the criticism of Shanahan since he's the one running Plummer out there week after week?) and never got a response.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

i think this pretty much sums it upIt doesn't sum up anything. First you're agreeing with "I'm throwing my tantrum any minute Alec" who makes the misstatement of "we aren't winning because of the QB " when actually we're winning despite the QB. 2nd, the ONLY reason Cutler is not in there isn't because he can't play better it's because he's a rookie and Shanahan isn't going to make the change as long as we're still leading the division.

Shanahan wouldn't have drafted Cutler if he had confidence Plummer could do the job (SB).

[rbackfactory80]

Use the same reasoning, explain this. Why was Mike Bell not activated for this game and Nash was?

Shanahan doesn't always make the right decisions no matter what some think here.

Oh yeah , experimenting with the running back situation that has gained 20 yards the last two weeks against a practice squad team( the raiders) is a decision of the same magnitude of a mid-season 7-2 start quaterback change. I think not.

[Willynowei]

One thing that is 100% true, quarterback stability is a must in any succesful football team. Currently Denver has such, but the Mane would rather it not be that way.

I can't think of a single team who benched their starting quarterback going down a winning stretch and won the superbowl that year.

[Crushaholic]

Shanahan wouldn't have drafted Cutler if he had confidence Plummer could do the job (SB).

Actually, that's an easy one to explain. He saw Cutler, a guy who could fit well into this system in the future, and grabbed him. Normally, a team would have to suck in order to draft high enough to get a decent quarterback who could succeed in the NFL. It really has nothing to do with "confidence in Plummer". After all, he was coming off the best year of his career.

[Northman]

Wait, Dumbass Ex Shanahan says its the Brister/Griese scar, you say its because we are 7-2.

First of all, Dumbass Ex Shanahan is posturing so I throw his out. Did Shanahan say in any press conference that he is basing his decision to keep the less talented player on the field over a more talented player because we are winning?

What I mean is, Shanny benched Mike Bell over a clearly inferior RB in Nash. He has benched Foster over Meadows (even if for one game) against a sub par team.

Why not the QB? Is Shanny's motto "put the best players on the field" not applicable because we "are winning"? That doesnt seem to be the case at other positions, so what is different about the QB?

Im not being argumentative, I want to know. IF Jay Cutler is that good, how come he isnt on the field? We aren't winning because of the QB Im told and obviously the orange mane community is much more intelligent than I because I see Jake winning games by doing the things that need to be done when they absolutely have to be done. So, clearly Im wrong on this if I go by the community here.

So, why is Cutler o the bench? Its not because we are winning if you listen to the OM, because that has nothign to do with Plummer.



Could be any number of things. Regardless of how Jake is playing the team is still winning. He has no real reason to bench Jake because he feels as many Jake apologists do that Jake does " just enough " to keep it afloat. Maybe Shanny still has hope that Plummer will become that player from ASU who at some point would carry his team on his back when the time called for it. Maybe there is a scar from the Griese era i dont know. Dallas had to make a move because they were in danger of losing the season and it proved to be a worthy move. If we drop 2 in a row do we consider a option? If of course the Qb play has not been up to par for a 11 year Vet? You know that Parcells had to hate to bench Bledsoe but it had to be done.

But for the Broncos we are winning so there is no reason to bring in another option at this point. But most certainly if things go South and if we can gather momentum back especially at the Quarterback play than im certain that Shanahan would make a adjustment. But for now the team has the luxury of keeping Jay on the bench because we are squeeking by with the type of play Jake has given us. The other thing is if Jake really is going to be traded or cut loose next year than Shanny will let Jake ride out the year whether we bomb or win it all. Im not calling for Jay to come in but i do agree that he could do no worse than the way Jake has performed this year. But, as long as the team is winning Jay can sit as long as it takes.

The thing that bothers me about you guys though is that i keep hearing that the OM will have nothing to do with who plays and who doesnt. Yet, whenever a thread about Jake surfaces up you guys get rattled and disgruntled about it. You dont have to read the threads man, especially if you already know what is going to be said in them. If our threads have no bearing on the Broncos organization than there really is no point in you posting in them. Not trying to be a ass but if it causes you, Popps, MHS, or O4Life that much stress or grief than why bother even reading the threads? If i see a thread that i know is going to be ridiculous i just dont read it. Frankly, the only reason the Jake threads even get that much attention is because you guys storm in and get all flustered by them.

There are certain people here ( myself included ) who are very happy where the team is in the standings. But we would like to see much better play from the Qb position. Thats it. We arent abandoning the team or claiming to sell tickets cause we drafted a future prospect. We just simply get angry and frustrated because we know 1) that the current Qb can play better but for some reason hasnt and 2) we are concerned about his play come playoff time. Thats all man, nothing more. I have been a fan of the Broncos for over 25 years and will continue till im dead and buried. But it doesnt mean that i cant come on here and vent about things i feel are hurting the team.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Oh yeah , experimenting with the running back situation that has gained 20 yards the last two weeks against a practice squad team( the raiders) is a decision of the same magnitude of a mid-season 7-2 start quaterback change. I think not.Explain the "experiment", I didn't see it. Are you calling 4 rushes for Nash giving someone else a chance?

In case some here aren't seeing what's happening, teams are crowding the line to stop run first and make us beat them throwing the ball.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Actually, that's an easy one to explain. He saw Cutler, a guy who could fit well into this system in the future, and grabbed him. Normally, a team would have to suck in order to draft high enough to get a decent quarterback who could succeed in the NFL. It really has nothing to do with "confidence in Plummer". After all, he was coming off the best year of his career.
Oh c'mon, he had it, just as most here did with Plummer's pathetic playoff showings.

[rbackfactory80]

Explain the experiment, I didn't see it. Are you calling 4 rushes for Nash giving someone else a chance?

I am calling getting the ball to cobbs more, bringing nash up, and gaining 20 yards the past two weeks an experiment. We were playing the Raiders and no matter what happened we knew we could get out of there with a win. Getting rid of Mike Anderson could be the biggest offseason mistake Denver made this year. Tatum bell is what he is, a guy who if not used much will break the long run. We had a good thing going last year. We let one to many slip away.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Actually, that's an easy one to explain. He saw Cutler, a guy who could fit well into this system in the future, and grabbed him. Normally, a team would have to suck in order to draft high enough to get a decent quarterback who could succeed in the NFL. It really has nothing to do with "confidence in Plummer". After all, he was coming off the best year of his career.

The best year of Jake's career was 1 TD a game and a little over 200 ypg. That should tell you something about what Jake did last year. It has everything to do with Shanahan's confidence in Jake. You don't go out and trade up to 11th overall to take a QB when you were a home loss away from a Super Bowl berth.

[Rock Chalk]

Anubis you have me confused with someone else.

I dont care who plays. I dont care about anything but the W. Do I like Jake? Yes I do. But in the end, I dont care. I dont care how we win, as long as we win. You people (Cutler homers) apparently care how we win and bitch and moan, apparently (at least, this is what it sounds like from my end) that it isnt pretty.

Let me ask you this. If we do win teh SB this year, and we win it ugly, are you going to give a rats ass?

I wont.

[Drek]

Jake plays because Jake's proven. If he straightens it out he and our talented D can win some playoff games. Cutler has all the potential in the world, but throwing him in now is like driving your car when its 20 below and you've just fired it up, you don't do either unless you're forced to.

I'm beginning to really hate watching Jake play football, but I'd rather we stick with him than assure ourselves of a rough transition mid-season. We've got a title shot. Walker is the most dangerous offensive weapon we've had since Terrell Davis. Our D is the best its been in nearly a decade, when it was a key part of winning back to back championships. We've got a hell of a team if Jake can straighten it out. If he can't, well, we'll know by playoff time and Cutler catching lightening in a bottle will be our best bet.

[Northman]

Anubis you have me confused with someone else.

I dont care who plays. I dont care about anything but the W. Do I like Jake? Yes I do. But in the end, I dont care. I dont care how we win, as long as we win. You people (Cutler homers) apparently care how we win and b**** and moan, apparently (at least, this is what it sounds like from my end) that it isnt pretty.

Let me ask you this. If we do win teh SB this year, and we win it ugly, are you going to give a rats ass?

I wont.



Of course not. And if we do you can get the strap on and rape me blind but i will have a complete smile on my face because we will have won the SB. Again, im not bitching about the winning. Im concerned about how Jake is playing overall. If he proves me wrong than fantastic i have zero problem eating my full plate of crow. If Jake goes into the playoffs and plays perfectly but our defense blows goats like it did two years ago i will rip into them just as hard. But right now i see the bigger concern is Jake. I know its hard to tell sometimes who is trying to show concern and who is just flat out bashing the guy. I understand that can be misleading because the threads do get jacked by some crazy fans. But, im totally happy about being 7-2.

[Garcia Bronco]

Easy, the team is 7-2 even with Jake playing like garbage. Its not rocket science.

Sp you think we'd be 8-1 or 9-0...which game(s) would we have won?

[Garcia Bronco]

Check that spot between your fro Man, the ONLY reason and I mean the ONLY reason why Jake is still the starter is because we have won games.

Exactly...if we were losing games...then it would make sense to make a change

[Northman]

Sp you think we'd be 8-1 or 9-0...which game(s) would we have won?

Out of the two losses we have the Rams game we should have won. The Defense did their job but Jake turned the ball over too many times. The Indy game could have been won if we controlled the clock on offense in the final minutes but the defense bears that loss. So technically, yea we should be 8-1.

[Dedhed]

Easy, the team is 7-2 even with Jake playing like garbage. Its not rocket science.

Precisely. If you think that Shanahan isn't DYING to test out his new toy, you're drunk. I think most everyone who isn't a complete Plummer homer realizes that Cutler is very capable of outplaying Jake right now, but our record eliminates the posibility of a change.

When that ceases to be the case, the change will come swiftly.

[Garcia Bronco]

Out of the two losses we have the Rams game we should have won. The Defense did their job but Jake turned the ball over too many times. The Indy game could have been won if we controlled the clock on offense in the final minutes but the defense bears that loss. So technically, yea we should be 8-1.

So you think Cutler would have won...his first start...on the road...with a rookie runningback blocking for him...and a new flanker. All while winning the other 7 games? Hmmmm...that would be remarkable.

[Clockwork Orange]

Precisely. If you think that Shanahan isn't DYING to test out his new toy, you're drunk.

Bull****.

If he was DYING to get Cutler in there, he'd have done so after Plummer imploded in St. Louis. If he was DYING to get Cutler in there, he'd have put him in yesterday after Plummer came out of the gate playing like crap (this is the same game that he benched Foster, Bell and Scheffler).

Obviously Shanahan still feels that Plummer gives the team the best chance to win right now, otherwise Cutler would be starting. I know, you and the rest of the people who want Plummer tied to a rocket and shot into the sun don't want to believe that, but that's the reality of the situation.

If you have a problem with that, your problem lies with Shanahan, not Plummer.

[Northman]

So you think Cutler would have won...his first start...on the road...with a rookie runningback blocking for him...and a new flanker. All while winning the other 7 games? Hmmmm...that would be remarkable.



I never said that. Where did you get the idea that i said Cutler should have started the season? Or even bring him in? Im simply saying at this point Jay could play at the same level or better than Jake but as long as the team is winning there is no point. Read my response to Alec, i explained my stance in there. Not sure where you came up with that other senario.

[Garcia Bronco]

"Shot into the Sun."

That has me in tears

[Garcia Bronco]

I never said that. Where did you get the idea that i said Cutler should have started the season? Or even bring him in? Im simply saying at this point Jay could play at the same level or better than Jake but as long as the team is winning there is no point. Read my response to Alec, i explained my stance in there. Not sure where you came up with that other senario.

I must be a moron like you said the other week or some junk. I apologize. :D

[Garcia Bronco]

I never said that. Where did you get the idea that i said Cutler should have started the season? Or even bring him in? Im simply saying at this point Jay could play at the same level or better than Jake but as long as the team is winning there is no point. Read my response to Alec, i explained my stance in there. Not sure where you came up with that other senario.

I must be a moron like you said the other week or some junk. I apologize. :D

[Northman]

I must be a moron like you said the other week or some junk. I apologize. :D


Uhhhh. ok.

[Bronx33]

Our team continues to bail out Plummer. They could just as easy bail out Cutler. No matter what happens this season, I can't wait til next season. Watching Plummer is painful. He plays for our team about every other possession. I wish he could suit up full time for our offense. It's a flat our miracle we won that game yesterday.





Well these type threads are getting tiresome first off if cutler couldn't play any worse then whats the point of putting him in? first off the number one fact is and shall remain (we are not losing) we don't have a losing season underway, the season is not over ect ect ect. Now i fully understand IF we were the raiders and you have nothing to lose by playing the youngsters (then fine) play em. Until then threads like this are like pissin in a fan over and over. We have shanahan for a reason he is one smart cookie and he will give this team the best possiable chance to win based on the personel. (end of story)

[orange 4 life]

Our team continues to bail out Plummer. They could just as easy bail out Cutler. No matter what happens this season, I can't wait til next season. Watching Plummer is painful. He plays for our team about every other possession. I wish he could suit up full time for our offense. It's a flat our miracle we won that game yesterday.

isnt it great that after a win against our most hated rival (on a day of upsets and near upsets) all anyone can talk about is the qb?
its so out of control and ridiculous that its borderline comedic.
on the wagon, off the wagon, on the wagon, off the wagon.

yeah, the guy started terrible.
he also finished 19 for his last 22 with 2 td's, and once again made plays in the 4th quarter to help get us the win.
he also had backups at left and right tackle, a new tight end (who he hooked up with nicely), and for the second week in a row we had NO running game.

we're 7-2 and other than a close loss to indy we've beaten the afc's best, and plummer has been the best in those games.
cutler couldve done MUCH worse.
for the umpteenth time, all we KNOW about cutler is that he has a strong arm and the ability to play well against scrubs on bad teams.
plummer had amazing preseason stats as well. they mean nothing.

cutlers time will come, and when it does i will support him with as much enthusiasm as i support plummer, but that time isnt now.

enjoy the win. enjoy the fact that we can hopefully get some people healthy for this week, and enjoy being in 1st place.
feel good about the fact that we have a vet qb who's led us to victory in 3 of 4 games he's played, and feel good about the fact that that qb wont fold up like a cheap lawn chair even after a disastrous start like he had yesterday.

for Gods sake, just enjoy the SEASON and the TEAM.

worry about cutler later.
this is plummers team.
if youre a bronco fan, get on the wagon and fvkin stay there.

jake

[Chupacabra]

I don't think Cutler is ready. I remember watching the practices for the sr bowl on espn fairly extensively last year with all my roommates. I talked Cut up because I think he faced a lot of good comp playing in the sec. I was extremely disapointed watching him practice because while he did show off the necessary pro arm, he was pretty erratic making bad throws/reads. I got really pissed at him after that for making me look stupid and lost faith. When the Broncos picked him up I was as surprised as anyone but excited because I think he is a true QBOTF. He isnt a backup as someone labeled him. And he isnt a starter. He has the tools to be a sold starter in the league and I think he will be. But obviously this is not the year.

[Northman]

I don't think Cutler is ready. I remember watching the practices for the sr bowl on espn fairly extensively last year with all my roommates. I talked Cut up because I think he faced a lot of good comp playing in the sec. I was extremely disapointed watching him practice because while he did show off the necessary pro arm, he was pretty erratic making bad throws/reads. I got really pissed at him after that for making me look stupid and lost faith. When the Broncos picked him up I was as surprised as anyone but excited because I think he is a true QBOTF. He isnt a backup as someone labeled him. And he isnt a starter. He has the tools to be a sold starter in the league and I think he will be. But obviously this is not the year.



Practice for the SR Bowl is a lot different than Practice with a NFL team. I dont think you can judge how Cutler practiced with guys who he played with once. At least in his practices now he has familiarity with the guys from day to day. Way different senarios.

[Arkansas Bronco]

Alot of people were raving about his practices it was his in game performance that was poor and alot of that was due to Manny Lawson dominating his man all day and was in the backfield often and quickly.

[Chupacabra]

exactly

[Chupacabra]

Good point that furthers mine...Given a year of familiarity with his NFL teammates, I think he will be a solid pro. A great QBOTF. Word is he doesnt get much time with 1st team... I think the scenario of having new WRs and a new system at the sr bowl correllates very well to the new expansive NFL playbook and new wrs. He should be a solid starer. He isnt ready, that was my point.

Practice for the SR Bowl is a lot different than Practice with a NFL team. I dont think you can judge how Cutler practiced with guys who he played with once. At least in his practices now he has familiarity with the guys from day to day. Way different senarios.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

this is plummers team.
if youre a bronco fan, get on the wagon and fvkin stay there.
jake
Most people understand where Plummer's wagon stops. People can be Bronco fans and not a Plummer nobber, believe it or not.

[dbroncos31]

Alot of people were raving about his practices it was his in game performance that was poor and alot of that was due to Manny Lawson dominating his man all day and was in the backfield often and quickly.
So what is he gonna do when he's facing Leonard Little and Dwight Freeney and Derrick Burgess and Steroid Merriman and Jared Allen? This is exactly why Plummer's playing. He knows what to expect. Although he's been sucking, IMO (and Shanahan's) he gives us the best chance to win. As well as Cutler played during the preseason, we saw in that Arizona game the mistakes he will make. He misread the D and threw a pick 6.

Honestly, however, can we just merge these threads? 95% of them are exactly the same "Plummer stinks, why don't we start Cutler" so IMO there is no reason to have 10-15 of them on the front page at the same time. I know that many posters would be mad they don't have their own "I hate Plummer" thread, but tough ****.

[freak6]

Bottom Line is Jake isnt playing that bad, he may throw a couple stupid picks but overall hes an above average QB... get over it.

HFS!!!

Keep smoking bro!!!

[orange 4 life]

Most people understand where Plummer's wagon stops. People can be Bronco fans and not a Plummer nobber, believe it or not.

most people understand that youre an idiot.

[freak6]

Jake is to inconsistent to ever win 3 let alone 4 straight games vs playoff competition.

We have virtually no chance at winning a SB with him at QB.

Enjoy your hat. To me they are just a reminder of failure.

<img src="http://www.rsports.com/rsports/assets/product_images/PAAAIAPBJBBMCDDEt.jpg">

[Bronx33]

HFS!!!

Keep smoking bro!!!

Not defending jake (he has sucked) but put it this way what if jake sucked the whole game VS 1/2 the game? we would have lost sunday.

[freak6]

Not defending jake (he has sucked) but put it this way what if jake sucked the whole game VS 1/2 the game? we would have lost sunday.

We would have lost to just about any other team sunday. Jake was responsible for the Raider touchdown, the difference in the game until we had to go for a 4th down to take the lead. If Nash loses that fumble, we lose. In no way should any Plummer homer be pointing at this game like Jake won it. lmao.

[Bronx33]

Jake was responsiable for the 2 denver TDs? no? agin iam not defending him he sucked balls in the first but hey he did get the nessesary points to win the game. no?

[Broncos4tw]

I listen to plenty of radio with analysts and football talk, and the general concensus for those who feel Jake just isn't the answer, is that Shanahan is just "too forgiving" in the removal of players that are slumping. Key players that is, he doesn't seem to have a problem with removing those players who are not top guys. But just check out Griese. He let him play much longer than I feel he should have let him.

One analyst who was there for most of the Bronco training camp said in so many words, that he felt the best QB was NOT on the field. That Jay outplayed Jake in preseason, as well as in training camp. And only "loyalty" is keeping Jake in there. He felt Jay is a massive upgrade, and should have started from day one.

[-Slap-]

Of course it would. There's already a slew of people here who've jockeyed to the front of the line to be designated Cutler apologists, so expect him to replace Brian Griese as the "nothing's ever his fault" guy.

At first, I'll just try and make people feel guilty.

"Come on, he's just a kid."

http://tn3-2.deviantart.com/fs4/300W/i/2004/268/4/b/sad_child_by_vivere_ad_mori.jpg

[Broncos4tw]

Let's put it another way....

I've heard many ex-Bronco players, sports announcers, pro football analysts all talk about Jake this year. What have I heard? Nothing positive, that's for certain. The best I've heard after two good games was "maybe Jake is getting back to his "old self," which quite honestly, doesn't impress me all that much. But I've heard a LOT of negative talk from all quarters, including many who speculate the wrong guy is behind center.

Now, I respect the fellow Bronco fans opinions, but you have to at least start asking yourself.... "huh.. maybe all these pro opinions are not full of it, maybe Jake DOES suck.."

I myself am of the opinion he can be good, and he can be really bad. He is off and on, but I don't think he himself will ever lift our team on his shoulders to win a game. So with that thought process, I don't think we have a chance in hell of ever winning a SB with him playing. Pulling a drive together to get ahead in the fourth isn't "putting the team on your shoulders." That is just digging yourself out of a hole you put the team in, in the first place.

We'll have to win three or four consecutive games against very good teams to win the SB. I just don't think he has it in him. Of course, not sure Jay does either. He could choke under all the pressure and lose when it matters, no way to know.

[-Slap-]

This is where the whole Plummer/Cutler argument seems to get dicey for the people who're calling for Cutler to start now. While they bash Plummer without mercy, they all seem to pull up when Shanahan and his decision to leave Plummer in are brought into the discussion. Apparently no one wants to rip Shanahan, so that pent up angst keeps getting heaped on Plummer.

I asked that question weeks ago (Where's the criticism of Shanahan since he's the one running Plummer out there week after week?) and never got a response.

Why should I bash Shanahan?

I feel sorry for the guy. He's killing himself putting in 100 hour work weeks and Jake is barely showing up for most of these games. Lord only knows how many years Plummer's ridiculous antics this season have taken off Shanny's coaching life.

The guy is clearly between a rock and a hard place.

I think having Jake Plummer quarterback the team you coach must be like being addicted to some awful drug. Its like you're clinging to a rock in a raging river. Its scary and dangerous and you know it will end badly, but the unknown is scary, too, so you're afraid to let go.

Mike needs to let go.

[watermock]

Bull****.

If he was DYING to get Cutler in there, he'd have done so after Plummer imploded in St. Louis. If he was DYING to get Cutler in there, he'd have put him in yesterday after Plummer came out of the gate playing like crap (this is the same game that he benched Foster, Bell and Scheffler).

Obviously Shanahan still feels that Plummer gives the team the best chance to win right now, otherwise Cutler would be starting. I know, you and the rest of the people who want Plummer tied to a rocket and shot into the sun don't want to believe that, but that's the reality of the situation.

If you have a problem with that, your problem lies with Shanahan, not Plummer.

Completely erroneous. This was back in early September. This is mid November. Jay has carried the clipboard for 12 games.

What do you want Shanahan to say? He never announces a move beforehand. Did he say DEVO was on his last legs here? Anderson, Pryce? He's not a Ditka who castrates a player in the media.

If Shanahan wants to be Cpt. Smith of the Titanic yet again, that's his right. It's just going to be groundhog day in January.

Another thing that amuses me is the assertion one poster nameless asserted that obviously Culter has sucked in practice and that's why the string hasn't been pulled. There has been NOTHING to support that contention whatsover. Shanahan understands continuity and the idea of team chemistry.

Well, that chemistry is about as bulletproof as a gello metal flackjacket. Obviously, people don't remember Walker not so subtly ripping Plummer, the notable absence of Rod Smith to scold him.

Learn from example. Did Shanahan scold Foster or Mike Bell before he benched them? He doesn't feel the need to vindicate a damn thing he decides, with good reason. It's hard to make a change when we are eeking out wins, and yes...Shanahan wants a year to groom the kid. IMO...Shanahan is going to let Jake hang himself one more time in the playoffs. Why, who knows.

You know what would make this whole controversy go away?

IF JAKE THE FAKE SACKED UP AND STOPPED PLAYING LIKE A FLAMING CRAP SACK.

All the detractors go away. I said before the season there was no controversy. JAKE GENERATED THE CONTROVERSY ALL BY HIS LONESOME.

If we only had a reciever like...say that Walker guy in Green Bay he wouldn't look so bad right?

I'm also amused how fools seem to think a young QB will automatically fail. I knew that the others of the Big 3 would struggle, especially Young, who was vastly overrated. He didn't even know how to take a snap under center.

All I can go by is what I have seen in the preseason. To me, Cutler looked ready then honestly. Before you rip me...that's all I have to go on besides his gallantry at Vandy, where not a single other player on that team was even invited to the combine.

[-Slap-]

One thing that is 100% true, quarterback stability is a must in any succesful football team. Currently Denver has such, but the Mane would rather it not be that way.

I can't think of a single team who benched their starting quarterback going down a winning stretch and won the superbowl that year.

Do you remember losing a Super Bowl to the 1987 Redskins? (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/was1987.htm)

They went 11-4 in that strike shortened season and they dumped Jay "The Human Forehead" Schroeder for Doug Williams in late November.

That was just off the top of my head.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

most people understand that youre an idiot.Hey I know, life is tough right now when your life hinges on every play Plummer makes.... or doesn't make. Luckily for you, it all ends in another 3 months or so.

BTW, did you get rid of your tickets like you said you're going to do since there aren't any more REAL Bronco fans?

[Rigs11]

Jake was responsiable for the 2 denver TDs? no? agin iam not defending him he sucked balls in the first but hey he did get the nessesary points to win the game. no?

naw..Jake only get's credit around here when he facks up. If he throws TD's then the receivers get the credit, or the running game get's the credit. When he scrambles for first downs when most Qb's would get sacked then it doesn't count.Hell that .746 winning pecentage that Shanny has with plummer is all Shanny.Bench him and start the proven rookie...

[Garcia Bronco]

Do you remember losing a Super Bowl to the 1987 Redskins? (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/was1987.htm)

They went 11-4 in that strike shortened season and they dumped Jay "The Human Forehead" Schroeder for Doug Williams in late November.

That was just off the top of my head.



Doung Williams started their opener if I'm not mistaken...and Doug had been around for a longt time

[-Slap-]

Doung Williams started their opener if I'm not mistaken...and Doug had been around for a longt time

You are mistaken.

What does Williams' longevity have to do with the original statement?

[Kaylore]

Bruce Gradkowski looks pretty good. :poke:

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Doung Williams started their opener if I'm not mistaken...and Doug had been around for a longt timeWilliams came in late in the season and had a total of 80 completions for the entire year (regular season).

[-Slap-]

Jake was responsiable for the 2 denver TDs? no? agin iam not defending him he sucked balls in the first but hey he did get the nessesary points to win the game. no?

Yeah, the one time he actually hit a receiver in stride yesterday, Javon took it to the house.

You would think he might try to accomplish that feat more than once a game.

[freak6]

If Nash loses that fumble we probably lose that game.

Pathetic. 4 ints.

Ragarm. No vision. Poor release. Blows play action big plays time and again. What a waste of a great season.

[-Slap-]

The 2000 Ravens went 12-4 and won the Super Bowl. (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/rav2000.htm)

They started the season with Tony Banks at quarterback and switched over to Trent Dilfer.

I think this is a particularly instructive example because it involves quarterbacks of the same talent level as Jake.

That's two.

[Clockwork Orange]

Why should I bash Shanahan?

I feel sorry for the guy. He's killing himself putting in 100 hour work weeks and Jake is barely showing up for most of these games. Lord only knows how many years Plummer's ridiculous antics this season have taken off Shanny's coaching life.

The guy is clearly between a rock and a hard place.

I think having Jake Plummer quarterback the team you coach must be like being addicted to some awful drug. Its like you're clinging to a rock in a raging river. Its scary and dangerous and you know it will end badly, but the unknown is scary, too, so you're afraid to let go.

Mike needs to let go.

I didn't say bash, I said criticize. Plummer isn't naming himself the starter every week, but no one here wants to say a word about Shanahan basically being Plummer's enabler.

I'm just looking for some consistancy and I'm obviously looking in the wrong place.

[Arkansas Bronco]

So what is he gonna do when he's facing Leonard Little and Dwight Freeney and Derrick Burgess and Steroid Merriman and Jared Allen? This is exactly why Plummer's playing. He knows what to expect. Although he's been sucking, IMO (and Shanahan's) he gives us the best chance to win. As well as Cutler played during the preseason, we saw in that Arizona game the mistakes he will make. He misread the D and threw a pick 6.

Honestly, however, can we just merge these threads? 95% of them are exactly the same "Plummer stinks, why don't we start Cutler" so IMO there is no reason to have 10-15 of them on the front page at the same time. I know that many posters would be mad they don't have their own "I hate Plummer" thread, but tough ****.

Not the same thing he had one week to get in sync with those guys he has had alot more time here and trust me I watched the Sr. bowl about 17-20 times and how bad Lawson was taking the tackle was a joke. All things considered I dont realy pay alot of attention on how they actualy do in these games because there is no way to understand and adjust to guys you met about 5 days before.

[Garcia Bronco]

Williams came in late in the season and had a total of 80 completions for the entire year (regular season).

Did they have day time preseason games...I remember watching him play in september in the afternoon...might have been august. And he went in because Jay got injured and held on to the job.

And hey...wasn't there a strike that year with scab players? And Jay was struggling after the strike ended if I recall correctly.

[Sassy]

Not defending jake (he has sucked) but put it this way what if jake sucked the whole game VS 1/2 the game? we would have lost sunday.

We also would have gotten killed in the Colts game.

[Clockwork Orange]

Completely erroneous. This was back in early September. This is mid November. Jay has carried the clipboard for 12 games.

What do you want Shanahan to say? He never announces a move beforehand. Did he say DEVO was on his last legs here? Anderson, Pryce? He's not a Ditka who castrates a player in the media.

If Shanahan wants to be Cpt. Smith of the Titanic yet again, that's his right. It's just going to be groundhog day in January.

Another thing that amuses me is the assertion one poster nameless asserted that obviously Culter has sucked in practice and that's why the string hasn't been pulled. There has been NOTHING to support that contention whatsover. Shanahan understands continuity and the idea of team chemistry.

Well, that chemistry is about as bulletproof as a gello metal flackjacket. Obviously, people don't remember Walker not so subtly ripping Plummer, the notable absence of Rod Smith to scold him.

Learn from example. Did Shanahan scold Foster or Mike Bell before he benched them? He doesn't feel the need to vindicate a damn thing he decides, with good reason. It's hard to make a change when we are eeking out wins, and yes...Shanahan wants a year to groom the kid. IMO...Shanahan is going to let Jake hang himself one more time in the playoffs. Why, who knows.

You know what would make this whole controversy go away?

IF JAKE THE FAKE SACKED UP AND STOPPED PLAYING LIKE A FLAMING CRAP SACK.

All the detractors go away. I said before the season there was no controversy. JAKE GENERATED THE CONTROVERSY ALL BY HIS LONESOME.

If we only had a reciever like...say that Walker guy in Green Bay he wouldn't look so bad right?

I'm also amused how fools seem to think a young QB will automatically fail. I knew that the others of the Big 3 would struggle, especially Young, who was vastly overrated. He didn't even know how to take a snap under center.

All I can go by is what I have seen in the preseason. To me, Cutler looked ready then honestly. Before you rip me...that's all I have to go on besides his gallantry at Vandy, where not a single other player on that team was even invited to the combine.

Is there a point in there somewhere or do I need to down a few quarts of rotgut to decipher it?

[SprintRightOption]

The 2000 Ravens went 12-4 and won the Super Bowl. (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/rav2000.htm)

They started the season with Tony Banks at quarterback and switched over to Trent Dilfer.

I think this is a particularly instructive example because it involves quarterbacks of the same talent level as Jake.

That's two.

I'm sure you're aware that Banks was benched at the tail end of 4 straight games where they failed to score a single touchdown. The last 2 were losses where they scored 3 and 6 points. So that is not quite the same is it?

If the Broncos don't score any TDs in the next 2 games and both are losses, then we would be in a similar situation. But clearly you are not really debating, you're just throwing something out there that on the surface helps your point.

In the case of Williams, he got into the lineup because a nagging separated shoulder plagued Schroeder and he couldn't play anywhere near 100%. So this also is not a similar situation.

[jayman_37]

don't you feel that if we put in Cutler it would put too much pressure on him to be a great QB and if he doesnt succeed he could turn into a little calmer version of Ryan Leaf with no confidence. As bad as Bronco fans are about analyzing QB play I think that it could almost burn him out if he had a bad end of the year and cost us a big game (playoffs or to get into the playoffs). The next thing you know he will be yelling at a reporter in the locker room. I think we should just enjoy the season with Plummer and hope he takes us to the promised land and let Cutlers time come when he is more ready.

[-Slap-]

Did they have day time preseason games...I remember watching him play in september in the afternoon...might have been august. And he went in because Jay got injured and held on to the job.

And hey...wasn't there a strike that year with scab players? And Jay was struggling after the strike ended if I recall correctly.

Right, Jay was struggling.

Just like Tony Banks.

Just like Jake.

[RADRHATR]

O.k. , Alright all of you Plummer backers have convinced me over the last two seasons that he is the man, He is the one that is gonna carry the Broncos to the promise land the year before last, last year and again this year. I'm just going to keep holding out for the playoffs when he is at his best because over the course of the last two seasons he has shown me that he can perform in the post-season because he has done it his whole carr.......... Oh my bad he sucks in the post-season and folds like an old lawn chair.

Plummer sucks and I have said before on this forum, he will never win the big game, let alone get there because he can't, he's not built that way. But if you backers out there feel that he can go ahead and get your heart ripped out yet again.

I would rather listen to you tell me , see I told you Cutler wasn't the guy! I think he is and I think it's time to find out. Bring out the Rookie and not the BoneHeaded veteran.

[Kaylore]

Why should I bash Shanahan?

I feel sorry for the guy. He's killing himself putting in 100 hour work weeks and Jake is barely showing up for most of these games. Lord only knows how many years Plummer's ridiculous antics this season have taken off Shanny's coaching life.

The guy is clearly between a rock and a hard place.

I think having Jake Plummer quarterback the team you coach must be like being addicted to some awful drug. Its like you're clinging to a rock in a raging river. Its scary and dangerous and you know it will end badly, but the unknown is scary, too, so you're afraid to let go.

Mike needs to let go.

Great post.

[Garcia Bronco]

Right, Jay was struggling.

Just like Tony Banks.

Just like Jake.

But Jay got injured...it's just not a good example

[-Slap-]

I'm sure you're aware that Banks was benched at the tail end of 4 straight games where they failed to score a single touchdown. The last 2 were losses where they scored 3 and 6 points. So that is not quite the same is it?

If the Broncos don't score any TDs in the next 2 games and both are losses, then we would be in a similar situation. But clearly you are not really debating, you're just throwing something out there that on the surface helps your point.

In the case of Williams, he got into the lineup because a nagging separated shoulder plagued Schroeder and he couldn't play anywhere near 100%. So this also is not a similar situation.

Banks and Schroeder were healthy and riding the bench on championship teams after beginning the season as starters.

Face.

[Rigs11]

O.k. , Alright all of you Plummer backers have convinced me over the last two seasons that he is the man, He is the one that is gonna carry the Broncos to the promise land the year before last, last year and again this year. I'm just going to keep holding out for the playoffs when he is at his best because over the course of the last two seasons he has shown me that he can perform in the post-season because he has done it his whole carr.......... Oh my bad he sucks in the post-season and folds like an old lawn chair.

Plummer sucks and I have said before on this forum, he will never win the big game, let alone get there because he can't, he's not built that way. But if you backers out there feel that he can go ahead and get your heart ripped out yet again.

I would rather listen to you tell me , see I told you Cutler wasn't the guy! I think he is and I think it's time to find out. Bring out the Rookie and not the BoneHeaded veteran.

Oh you're so wise. I bet you were saying the same thing about Griese hence your avatar, and you'll be saying the same thing about Cutler when he screws up.When will you people start holding the coach accountable for not making it to the promise land?

[Willynowei]

The 2000 Ravens went 12-4 and won the Super Bowl. (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/rav2000.htm)

They started the season with Tony Banks at quarterback and switched over to Trent Dilfer.

I think this is a particularly instructive example because it involves quarterbacks of the same talent level as Jake.

That's two.

Dilfer started in the middle of a three game losing streak, with a much uglier offense than Denver's.

Thats why I was careful to say winning streak, Slap. Any blind-man can see how inconsistent and off Jake has been this season. But, the fact is we've lost twice. Once was mostly Jake, the other, mostly Defense.

Not once has this team lost twice in a row this season, much less lose more than once at any point of the season due to offensive ineptitude.

[-Slap-]

But Jay got injured...it's just not a good example

Schroeder was 100% well before the playoffs began. Healthy scratch due to prolonged suckiness.

The only difference between the situations is Schroeder was unpopular with his teammates and Jake goes out of his way to ingratiate himself.

[Garcia Bronco]

And doug came in the first game of the seson for Jay when he seperated his shoulder against the Eagles. And Williams only got into the line up again after the strike because Jay couldn't get healthy

[Kaylore]

don't you feel that if we put in Cutler it would put too much pressure on him to be a great QB and if he doesnt succeed he could turn into a little calmer version of Ryan Leaf with no confidence. As bad as Bronco fans are about analyzing QB play I think that it could almost burn him out if he had a bad end of the year and cost us a big game (playoffs or to get into the playoffs). The next thing you know he will be yelling at a reporter in the locker room. I think we should just enjoy the season with Plummer and hope he takes us to the promised land and let Cutlers time come when he is more ready.

Ah, the old "Quarterbacks have the psyche of abused infants and the littlest sign of adversity will ruin them forever" argument. It's the biggest bunch of malarkey. Ryan Leaf failed because he sucked. Almost every QB that has done anything of note in the NFL started his rookie year. You don't hide players from adversity you throw it at them and make them fight through it.

And how anyone can say they are going to enjoy the season watching Plummer suck around like he is is beyond me.

[Garcia Bronco]

Schroeder was 100% well before the playoffs began. Healthy scratch due to prolonged suckiness.

The only difference between the situations is Schroeder was unpopular with his teammates and Jake goes out of his way to ingratiate himself.

Depending on the dgree the seperated shoulder can take a very long time to heal..and can require surgery

[Clockwork Orange]

Great post.

How typical, the people who think that it's idiotic to keep starting Jake Plummer refuse to assign any accountability to the person making that decision.

Thanks for proving my point.

[Garcia Bronco]

How typical, the people who think that it's idiotic to keep starting Jake Plummer refuse to assign any accountability to the person making that decision.

Thanks for proving my point.

I mean really...they need to eat the whole waffer

[Kaylore]

How typical, the people who think that it's idiotic to keep starting Jake Plummer refuse to assign any accountability to the person making that decision.

Thanks for proving my point.

Everyone who wants to start Cutler believes that Shanahan is making a mistake by leaving Plummer in the game to suck it up. That's been the core of the Cutler Plummer debate. In the very post I quoted -Slap- says Shanahan needs to let go. So now explain to me how I "made your point".

[SprintRightOption]

Banks and Schroeder were healthy and riding the bench on championship teams after beginning the season as starters.

Face.

Shroeder was "healthy" in the same way Griese was healthy in the last few games of 2000: he was able to suit up and "play", but his throwing shoulder was messed up and he couldn't throw his regular passes or be his normal playing self, so he needed surgery after the season to fix it. I don't think that's the same.

But you're right about Banks. He was healthy on the bench in the playoffs. Like I said, if we score zero TDs and lose 2+ straight games while doing so, then the situation is the same. I misread the context of how the other poster brought it up ("never happened before" vs. "same situation in both cases").

[-Slap-]

And doug came in the first game of the seson for Jay when he seperated his shoulder against the Eagles. And Williams only got into the line up again after the strike because Jay couldn't get healthy

Total bullcrap. The numbers don't lie. Williams became the starter and held the job because the team played harder behind him. You can see Schroeder took twice as many snaps.

He even took a snap in the Super Bowl when Williams went down with a knee problem (and fumbled, but the ****ing ref let him get away with it, the peckerhead).

+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+
| Name | G | CMP ATT PCT YARD Y/A TD IN | RSH YARD TD |
+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+
| Jay Schroeder | 11 | 129 267 48.3 1878 7.0 12 10 | 26 120 3 |
| Doug Williams | 5 | 81 143 56.6 1156 8.1 11 5 | 7 9 1 |
+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Depending on the dgree the seperated shoulder can take a very long time to heal..and can require surgery
Gradkowski separated his left shoulder, had it popped back in in the first quarter last year, broke his throwing hand in the second quarter (told his coach he still had 3 fingers that worked) and went on to lead his team to victory and the conference championship.



<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2" class="player"># 7 Bruce Gradkowski</td> <td rowspan="2" align="right" width="134">http://images.nfl.com/images/helmets/134x121/TB.gif (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/TB)</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td width="70">http://images.nfl.com/images/players/60x80/411598.jpg</td> <td class="playerbio"> Position: QB
Height: 6-1
Weight: 222
Born: 01/27/1983
College: Toledo
NFL Experience: Rookie</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Clockwork Orange]

Everyone who wants to start Cutler believes that Shanahan is making a mistake by leaving Plummer in the game to suck it up. That's been the core of the Cutler Plummer debate. In the very post I quoted -Slap- says Shanahan needs to let go. So now explain to me how I "made your point".

No, that hasn't been the core of any debate. All that gets thrown out there is "Plummer sucks" "Plummer is holding this team back" and "Bench Plummer." While all of those things have merit, no one comes out and says that Shanahan is hurting this team just as much by continuously running a substandard QB out there. All the criticism is reserved for Plummer.

[Garcia Bronco]

Total bullcrap. The numbers don't lie. Williams became the starter and held the job because the team played harder behind him. You can see Schroeder took twice as many snaps.

He even took a snap in the Super Bowl when Williams went down with a knee problem (and fumbled, but the ****ing ref let him get away with it, the peckerhead).

+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+
| Name | G | CMP ATT PCT YARD Y/A TD IN | RSH YARD TD |
+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+
| Jay Schroeder | 11 | 129 267 48.3 1878 7.0 12 10 | 26 120 3 |
| Doug Williams | 5 | 81 143 56.6 1156 8.1 11 5 | 7 9 1 |
+----------------------+----+-------------------------------+-------------+


Naw bro...what I said happened...it's not the same. It's a bad example for your point. But you got Banks and Dilfer. Plus you add in what...6-7 games of scab football that season and a seperated shoulder.

[-Slap-]

Shroeder was "healthy" in the same way Griese was healthy in the last few games of 2000: he was able to suit up and "play", but his throwing shoulder was messed up and he couldn't throw his regular passes or be his normal playing self, so he needed surgery after the season to fix it. I don't think that's the same.

Yeah, Schroeder's shoulder was so screwed up Al Davis traded the Redskins All Pro left tackle Jim Lachey straight up for him a few months later.

Williams finished the season because Schroeder was disliked by his teammates and ineffective. I don't care if Williams did mop up duty in week one. Schroder threw 267 passes and took a couple snaps in the Super Bowl. He started for the Raiders the following season.

[Garcia Bronco]

Gradkowski separated his left shoulder, had it popped back in in the first quarter last year, broke his throwing hand in the second quarter (told his coach he still had 3 fingers that worked) and went on to lead his team to victory and the conference championship.



<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2" class="player"># 7 Bruce Gradkowski</td> <td rowspan="2" align="right" width="134">http://images.nfl.com/images/helmets/134x121/TB.gif (http://www.nfl.com/teams/news/TB)</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td width="70">http://images.nfl.com/images/players/60x80/411598.jpg</td> <td class="playerbio"> Position: QB
Height: 6-1
Weight: 222
Born: 01/27/1983
College: Toledo
NFL Experience: Rookie</td></tr></tbody></table>

But did he throw the next day. Griese went to a third degree and won the game....he was done for the season though. He tried to come back for SF, but he attempted one or two passess and was out

[Garcia Bronco]

Yeah, Schroeder's shoulder was so screwed up Al Davis traded the Redskins All Pro left tackle Jim Lachey straight up for him a few months later.

Williams finished the season because Schroeder was disliked by his teammates and ineffective. I don't care if Williams did mop up duty in week one. Schroder threw 267 passes and took a couple snaps in the Super Bowl. He started for the Raiders the following season.

Dude...that was after an offseason. Come on..just admit...you made a bad example...you got Dilfer/Banks though

[Kaylore]

No, that hasn't been the core of any debate. All that gets thrown out there is "Plummer sucks" "Plummer is holding this team back" and "Bench Plummer." While all of those things have merit, no one comes out and says that Shanahan is hurting this team just as much by continuously running a substandard QB out there. All the criticism is reserved for Plummer.

Doesn't that go without saying? When we say "Bench Plummer, start Cutler" who do you think we're talking to? We are telling fellow fans, sure, but we're hoping Shanahan does that. It's no different when we get upset a player is/isn't drafted. It's assumed we want Shanahan to do otherwise. If you're upset that there are no "Shanahan sucks" threads then you'll have to get over it because there's more at stake in this move than any other.

[RADRHATR]

Oh you're so wise. I bet you were saying the same thing about Griese hence your avatar, and you'll be saying the same thing about Cutler when he screws up.When will you people start holding the coach accountable for not making it to the promise land?

I was not saying that I am wise I am simply stating that Plummer will never win the big game and I think that the Broncos are better off with Cutler in there while our Defense is winning games for them. Cutler can make every throw that Plummer is making and I personally think that Cutler is more savvy than Plummer. Now on to your second point, I am not a Shanny lover either but I do think he is a good coach and he is not the one out there throwing it to the guys in different jerseys. But if I was Shanny and my intentions are to keep Jake in there I would go to a hurry up offense because that is when he is at his best which is still mediocre.

[-Slap-]

No, that hasn't been the core of any debate. All that gets thrown out there is "Plummer sucks" "Plummer is holding this team back" and "Bench Plummer." While all of those things have merit, no one comes out and says that Shanahan is hurting this team just as much by continuously running a substandard QB out there. All the criticism is reserved for Plummer.

Mainly because Jake has a chance to redeem himself every week and he hasn't been able to do it.

There's no question Shanahan is loathe to switch horses. He stuck with Griese at least one season too long. He stuck with him so long, in fact, when the handwriting was finally on the wall, he had precious few options. The choices basically came down to Jake Plummer or Kordell Stewart, with an almost totally unproven Jake Delhomme a potential fallback option.

People give a lot of play to this comment Mike supposedly made about "losing the lockerroom" when he switched from Bubby. Well, Bubby pretty much made that decision for him by not even acting half as professional about his job as he should have.

Bottom line is that team was tired, and missing The Man, and looking for an excuse to lay down and they leaped on the quarterback situation.

[Clockwork Orange]

Doesn't that go without saying? When we say "Bench Plummer, start Cutler" who do you think we're talking to? We are telling fellow fans, sure, but we're hoping Shanahan does that. It's no different when we get upset a player is/isn't drafted. It's assumed we want Shanahan to do otherwise. If you're upset that there are no "Shanahan sucks" threads then you'll have to get over it because there's more at stake in this move than any other.

Shouldn't it go without saying by now that Plummer is the anchor around the neck of this offense? That sure as hell doesn't stop people from starting a dozen "Start Cutler, Plummer Sucks" threads every day.

And no, I'm not looking for any "Shanahan sucks" threads to be started, I just wanted to see if there was any consistancy in people's criticism. There isn't and there won't be. So be it.

[Kaylore]

I just wanted to see if there was any consistancy in people's criticism. There isn't and there won't be. So be it.

You don't even know what you're talking about. The criticisms of Jake have been the same. I think you're just trying to find a reason to bash people critical of Jake because we are more and more right.

[SprintRightOption]

That does it. I'm going to post a poll to see what people think about starting Cutler... :clown:

[-Slap-]

Naw bro...what I said happened...it's not the same. It's a bad example for your point. But you got Banks and Dilfer. Plus you add in what...6-7 games of scab football that season and a seperated shoulder.

You're certainly not helping your case any right now as to your ability to recollect events from that season.

The strike wiped out four weeks of season and they played three strike games, hence Washington's 11-4 record.

I believe you're remembering that season via internet assistance. Well, I don't need Wikipedia to remember what happened that season. I was paying attention and I know Jay Schroeder's ass got benched.

Deal with it.

[Clockwork Orange]

Mainly because Jake has a chance to redeem himself every week and he hasn't been able to do it.

Then he needs to be sat down and there's one person who can make that happen.

[WABronco]

Preston Parsons couldn't play any worse.

http://cache.denverbroncos.com/resources/custom/Team/Parsons_Preston_mug.jpgRARRRRR!

[SprintRightOption]

I was paying attention and I know Jay Schroeder's ass got benched.

Deal with it.

No. NO!!! I can't deal with it. Jay Shroeder is my dad!


Anyway, he got benched due to a nagging shoulder injury that was making his play worse, as well as the other stuff about his teammates hating him or whatever. He had surgery in the offseason to fix that shoulder, then came back as a mediocre Raiders QB, kind of like Grieseball. This is completely consistent with what Garcia and I have been saying in this thread, so there's not much to deal with.

[Arkansas Bronco]

Is he suppose to be smiling?

[-Slap-]

Shouldn't it go without saying by now that Plummer is the anchor around the neck of this offense? That sure as hell doesn't stop people from starting a dozen "Start Cutler, Plummer Sucks" threads every day.

And no, I'm not looking for any "Shanahan sucks" threads to be started, I just wanted to see if there was any consistancy in people's criticism. There isn't and there won't be. So be it.

Give me the criteria you're looking for and I'll try to accomodate you.

I think Shanahan is paralyzed right now. He's afraid to tamper with overall success even though he can plainly see there's a major problem.

Is calling him scared good enough?

I'll give Jake credit. His ability to keep us close in every game, regardless of the opponent, pretty much guarantees we'll never get to see what Jay can do in garbage time.

[Clockwork Orange]

You don't even know what you're talking about. The criticisms of Jake have been the same. I think you're just trying to find a reason to bash people critical of Jake because we are more and more right.

LOL

I've been saying for weeks that if Shanahan doesn't have faith in Plummer and is going to chop the playbook down to Martyball proportions, he needs to go to Cutler. But yeah, I'm so trying to bash the people who criticize Jake. You're right on top of this one. :thumbs:

[Garcia Bronco]

You're certainly not helping your case any right now as to your ability to recollect events from that season.

The strike wiped out four weeks of season and they played three strike games, hence Washington's 11-4 record.

I believe you're remembering that season via internet assistance. Well, I don't need Wikipedia to remember what happened that season. I was paying attention and I know Jay Schroeder's ass got benched.

Deal with it.

No...I live in Redskin country and I remember it pretty good...I was 12. It's a bad example for your point, but you did get banks and dilfer. The guy wasn't effective enough because of his shoulder...and then he did get benched...due to injury. So it doesn't really fit the criteria. But Dilfer...heck yeah...you got that one. Good job

[WABronco]

Is he suppose to be smiling?

http://www.fisheyesoup.com/member_site/photo/big/13_20040203_876f858eedaff07.jpg

You decide

[-Slap-]

No. NO!!! I can't deal with it. Jay Shroeder is my dad!


Anyway, he got benched due to a nagging shoulder injury that was making his play worse, as well as the other stuff about his teammates hating him or whatever. He had surgery in the offseason to fix that shoulder, then came back as a mediocre Raiders QB, kind of like Grieseball. This is completely consistent with what Garcia and I have been saying in this thread, so there's not much to deal with.

Right.

Al Davis sent perennial All Pro left tackle Jim Lachey to Washington straight up for Jay Schroeder because Jay was damaged goods.

Keep 'em coming.......ROFL!

[Garcia Bronco]

Right.

Al Davis sent perennial All Pro left tackle Jim Lachey to Washington straight up for Jay Schroeder because Jay was damaged goods.

Keep 'em coming.......ROFL!

He is Al Davis. talk about keep them coming

[-Slap-]

No...I live in Redskin country and I remember it pretty good...I was 12. It's a bad example for your point, but you did get banks and dilfer. The guy wasn't effective enough because of his shoulder...and then he did get benched...due to injury. So it doesn't really fit the criteria. But Dilfer...heck yeah...you got that one. Good job

12 year olds don't football from Shinola.

I thought Lawrence McCutcheon was going to the Hall of Fame when I was 12.

[Garcia Bronco]

12 year olds don't football from Shinola.

I thought Lawrence McCutcheon was going to the Hall of Fame when I was 12.

And I thought we were going to kill the Redskins...yeah...you live in Redskin country and talk the 12 year old trash I was talking....

[-Slap-]

He is Al Davis. talk about keep them coming

Well, that was about the time he started making mistakes.

Think it through, though. Al Davis always thinks everybody is trying to screw him anyway. There's no way he trades one of his five best players for a guy who would have been considered damaged goods.

[-Slap-]

And I thought we were going to kill the Redskins...yeah...you live in Redskin country and talk the 12 year old trash I was talking....

Hey, the slimy Raiders moved into my city and stuck around for 13 years!

Even worse, the won their last Super Bowl their second year in town. Black and silver crap everywhere.

[Sassy]

LOL

I've been saying for weeks that if Shanahan doesn't have faith in Plummer and is going to chop the playbook down to Martyball proportions, he needs to go to Cutler. But yeah, I'm so trying to bash the people who criticize Jake. You're right on top of this one. :thumbs:

If SHanahan had no faith in Jake...would he have called for a pass to KJ for the TD on 4th and inches...???

...Would he have trusted Cutler with that same play?

[Garcia Bronco]

Well, that was about the time he started making mistakes.

Think it through, though. Al Davis always thinks everybody is trying to screw him anyway. There's no way he trades one of his five best players for a guy who would have been considered damaged goods.

You're asking me to get in the head of Al Davis...they guy that traded away Gruden for draft picks?

[Garcia Bronco]

Hey, the slimy Raiders moved into my city and stuck around for 13 years!

Even worse, the won their last Super Bowl their second year in town. Black and silver crap everywhere.


I also took the Pats against the Bears:welcome:

[-Slap-]

You're asking me to get in the head of Al Davis...they guy that traded away Gruden for draft picks?

I believe that trade was Al's final act of genius.

Gruden is a fine coach, but they hit the freaking motherlode. What was it, two number ones and two number twos, for a guy who wanted to leave anyway?

Happily, they squandered the picks on the likes of Phillip Buchanan.

[Garcia Bronco]

he should have made it right with Gruden

[Clockwork Orange]

If SHanahan had no faith in Jake...would he have called for a pass to KJ for the TD on 4th and inches...???

...Would he have trusted Cutler with that same play?

I originally made those comments after the first meeting with Oakland in which the Broncos basically got a 13-3 lead and then played Martyball the rest of the way, seemingly because he had no faith in Plummer to hold a lead unless the leash was held tightly enough to strangle him. Things have opened up a bit since then, but Jake's mistakes have increased along with it.

I just want the QB who gives this team the best chance to win to be on the field. Is that Cutler? I honestly don't know. I don't know where he is in his development, or how much of the playbook he's familiar with. Shanahan obviously feels that Plummer, mistakes and all, gives the Broncos the best chance to win now. I'm willing to live with it, I suppose, I don't really have a choice.

I am very surprised that Cutler didn't see action last Sunday.

[Sarcastro]

so can someone clear this up for me, because im getting confused. If Cutler played like Plummer it would be OK? Im no rocket scientist, but either way someones gonna throw 3 picks in a game and still WIN. Why throw a young QB who could be better than Jake into that kind of fire. Bottom Line is Jake isnt playing that bad, he may throw a couple stupid picks but overall hes an above average QB... get over it.

Jake has definately not been above this season. He has actually been near the bottom of the league in just about every passing category. Here is a quick run through:

Passing yards: 22nd in the league. Except for a few other crappy QBs, the only guys below Plummer on this list have already been benched/got injured or replaced benched/injured guys.

Completion percentage: 55.2% - 28th out of 34 QBs listed. He did manage to beat out Andrew Walter though. That is something to be proud of.

Yards per pass: 6.34 - 24th out of 34 listed.

TDs: 10 - 14th in the league. Plummer cracks the top 50%!

INTs: 10 - 29th in the league. Consider he only has had 248 attempts, this is really horrible.

QB rating: 71.6 - 29th in the league. Just another reason why Plummer sucks.

[cabronco]

I really thought after Jakes last pick, and you could see Shanny ripping his arse and for the first time Ive ever seen Plummer not yell back at him, and kind of hung his head like ya I f--ed up, was the first time I thought we'd see Cutler. But, the good Jake kicked in just in time and the rest is history.

[footstepsfrom#27]

I don't have the time/patience to read through all this crap but way back in May I was one of the lone voices in here suggesting that Shanny's prior history with Griese made it possible he'd start Cutler some time this year. I was laughed at by many who now are calling for exactly that. I still believe that...but only if we begin to lose...and given how this defense is now starting to sustain some injuries (and they are the ONLY reason we're winning games right now)...there's every possibility we will start losing some games unless we get healthy again very quickly...starting with the SD game on Sunday.

It's no big mystery why Cutler's on the bench and it's got nothing to do with Jake being a "winner" or "proven" or any of that nonsense. Jake's not winning these games...our defense is and Jake in fact is doing a lot to lose us games. In fact he's THE primary obstacle we have to overcome most of the time. Nor can anyone show me where Cutler is stinking it up in practice. Jay Cutler is MILES more talented as a QB than Fake is. The reason he's not starting has already been explained when Shanny expressly stated he didn't want to repeat the Griese mistake of starting a guy to quickly. I happen to think he's being overly cautious in this since Griese had ony two years of college experience vs Cutler's 4 and Jay is a lot more talented than SOB ever dreamed of being. But Shanny doesn't want to risk the kid's future and as long as he can pull of the W's with the Mistake at the helm and still protect his prize franchise QBOTF...he reasons, "Why not"?

There's a certain logic there...I don't want to see Cutler get blasted into the turf by some 350 pounder like Jamal Williams and end up tearing up a knee when we have Fake who is going to be as lame in 2007 as one of his deep outs off the back foot out there to take the punishment and risk injury instead. It's like this...you own a Ferrari and a '75 Pinto...which one do you drive to the Wal Mart in? Obviously not the Ferrari since some fool might scratch it. Shanny probably knows we're headed to another season ending disaster with Fake anyway so why risk messing up the paint job on the real deal?

I think Cutler vs Plummer next season will not even be an issue because the kid will put Fake on the trade/waiver wire long before we even get to camp...Shanny isn't stupid. He knows Plummer sucks and he knows Cutler's the future. He's just protecting the investment and probably wants a better pass blocking line before he risks the boy wonder to a Griese-like experience with an injury.

I can't WAIT till the Jake era gets flushed down the crapper because whether all you Plummer apologists like it or not...we will never win squat with a QB who plays like he's playing. Prepare for another playoff exit at the hands of whoever's hot at the end of the season when this offense gets exposed again. I'm fine with that...just bring on 2007 and beyond because that's when we're going to finally start getting back to the level of the Elway led SB teams with a real QB who can do the things a true NFL caliber signal caller is supposed to.

Meanwhile...Go Jake Plummer...and thanks for keeping the seat warm and not making waves. I respect that at least and support him while he's here. That doesn't mean I have to like watching his ridiculous game.

[freak6]

Jake Plummer is to inconsistent to win 3 let alone 4 straight playoff games. John Elway bareley edged out KC in 97, and then held on vs the Steelers the next week. No way does Jake Plummer win those games. It is to much of a task for him.

I'm so sick of listing his lack of abilities, but here goes one last time.

Arm strength is lacking.

11 year vet that can't read a defense.

Poor decision making.

Stares down his primary reciever.

Forces passes to that reciever.

Awful timing.

Hesitates and plays scared.

Is actually a better QB while running than standing up.

Accuracy among the worst in the NFL.

Most inconsistent QB in NFL.

I'd rather him suck all the time, but he played very well vs NE, Pitts, and Indy, doing enough to hold onto his job. This season will end with another terrible Jake job in the playoffs. I hope I'm wrong, but it seems inevitable to me. I'm looking forward to 07!

[Dedhed]

Shouldn't it go without saying by now that Plummer is the anchor around the neck of this offense? That sure as hell doesn't stop people from starting a dozen "Start Cutler, Plummer Sucks" threads every day.

And no, I'm not looking for any "Shanahan sucks" threads to be started, I just wanted to see if there was any consistancy in people's criticism. There isn't and there won't be. So be it.The reason there are still a dozen "Bench Plummer" threads is because Jake is still starting (and sucking) and there are still people dense enough to defend Plummer, and how terrible he's been.

[ton80]

I'm a jake apologist, but since we're winning football games, its easy for me to overlook his consistently inconsistent play. I am entirely apathetic towards Jake when Jake plays like crap and we still win. The sweet taste of a Broncos victory trumps everything.

[Rock Chalk]

Precisely. If you think that Shanahan isn't DYING to test out his new toy, you're drunk. I think most everyone who isn't a complete Plummer homer realizes that Cutler is very capable of outplaying Jake right now, but our record eliminates the posibility of a change.

When that ceases to be the case, the change will come swiftly.

If Cutler was heads and shoulders above Jake Plummer he would be on the field, period.

The simple fact that you ****ing twits dont want to face is Cutler is not ready to play. For whatever reason. You wanting to put in a guy that the coach doesnt want to put in doesnt change the fact that Cutler isnt there. I know. PLummer has played poorly enough to be yanked IF Cutler was that good.

He's not.

Get used to it, we are stuck with him for a long long time.

[Rock Chalk]

Amd I get satisfaction from winning, not from Jake being on the field.

****ing idiots.

[freak6]

The sweet taste of a Broncos victory trumps everything.

Not for me. After we got destroyed by the Redskins 35 pt 2nd quarter, that was like getting kicked in the nuts every day I woke up for 3 straight months. I really really thought we would win that game, especially after going up 10-0, the bs fumble, but anyway...

After that game, I was down, and sick of hearing about our small D-line, that got owned by the Hogs.

So then we have an off year, but come back with a bend but don't break D in 89, that leads the league in pts given up. We make it to the Super Bowl, and I am all hyped up with optimism despite a 13 pt spread, we have Elway, I am happy to be the underdog, let's do this. We get destroyed.

From there on out my blind homerism ended. I became a realist (somewhat), and started looking at football much more objectively, if nothing else it was a psychological reaction to avoid disapointment.

What I see in this forum among the Plummer apologists, is me at age 12 again, and arguing with you is just about as fruitful. Plummer apologists won't be reasoned with, they have blind faith in Jake, are happy to be winning, and will puke up any excuse to keep the dream alive. No matter how much those of us with more knowledge and experiance keep trying to explain to you, it's like talking to a wall because we keep posting up Ws, thankfully I might add.

Oh well. Enjoy your hat!!!<img src="http://www.rsports.com/rsports/assets/product_images/PAAAIAPBJBBMCDDEt.jpg">

[mosca]

I'd rather him suck all the time, but he played very well vs NE, Pitts, and Indy, doing enough to hold onto his job. This season will end with another terrible Jake job in the playoffs. I hope I'm wrong, but it seems inevitable to me. I'm looking forward to 07!
Why would you rather him suck all the time? Do you actually root for Plummer to do worse so that maybe, just maybe, Shanny will put Cutler in? Well, sorry, too late now. May as well face the fact that we're in the playoff hunt and that Plummer is gonna stay the QB as long as we are. Whether or not you want to keep complaining about who's the starter at QB is up to you.

You constantly say how a Plummer meltdown is gonna cause the team to lose in the playoffs, but really... do you work at the Oracle of Delphi or something? Can you predict the future? Is it possible that he might play well and we could -still- lose a playoff game? Sure, Jake is inconsistent and has only won one playoff game, but really... who knows what will happen. Strange things happen all the time, even in professional sports. The season may be a waste to you but it sure as hell isn't to plenty of other Bronco fans out there.

[Atlas]

In the 4th quarter when the game was on the line Plummer was like 10-13 and led the Broncos dow for the winning TD......

Yes, it is very possible that Cutler could play worse than that.

What rookie QB is out there right now that is giving Bronco fans hope that Cutler will find success??

Young ain't winning
Lienart ain't winning
Gradakowski ain't winning.

everyone needs to give this Cutler thing a rest. It's embarrassing.

[Kaylore]

In the 4th quarter when the game was on the line Plummer was like 10-13 and led the Broncos dow for the winning TD......

Yes, it is very possible that Cutler could play worse than that.

What rookie QB is out there right now that is giving Bronco fans hope that Cutler will find success??

Young ain't winning
Lienart ain't winning
Gradakowski ain't winning.

everyone needs to give this Cutler thing a rest. It's embarrassing.
Jake is embarrassing.

[Taco John]

I believe that trade was Al's final act of genius.

Gruden is a fine coach, but they hit the freaking motherlode. What was it, two number ones and two number twos, for a guy who wanted to leave anyway?

Happily, they squandered the picks on the likes of Phillip Buchanan.



That's one way of looking at it. The other way is that he traded two number ones and two number twos in exchange for an eventual Superbowl. Gruden wasn't going to be denied that year. I believe to this day that the Raiders would have another Superbowl if Davis hadn't have blown that situation. I'm just glad we got him out of the AFC West. Long Live Al Davis!

[Taco John]

I'm a jake apologist, but since we're winning football games, its easy for me to overlook his consistently inconsistent play. I am entirely apathetic towards Jake when Jake plays like crap and we still win. The sweet taste of a Broncos victory trumps everything.

How does 4 turnovers in a playoff game taste?

[BroncoBuff]

Jake is embarrassing.
We're 7-2 with Plummer .... what would we be with Cutler? And TJ - if Jake is a playoff underachiever like you theorize (and I largely agree), what makes you think Jay would be any better on such a big stage ... down a quick 2 TDs to Peyton Manning or choking under Polamalu's hair after he's flattened on a blitz he hadn't seen in the regular season film?



And about the Raiders drafts, and Al's crazy DB fetish ... not just Philip Buchanan, but Larry Brown too. And how can he choose Michael Huff ahead of Leinart and Cutler? Something is seriously wrong with the guy. I think his tough guy "greatness of the Ray-duhs" nonsense is manifesting in his DB fetish ... he sees Jack Tatum and Lester Hayes in these guys for some reason.

He shouldda just retired after that 2003 SB appearance. Let him mutter 'F-ing Barrett Robbins' into his pudding all week and then wheel him out for the games in his crazy jumpsuit on Sundays. They'd win more games that way. But then again, we'd have Maroney instead of Cutler.

[Taco John]

TJ - if Jake is a playoff underachiever like you theorize (and I largely agree), what makes you think Jay would be any better on such a big stage ... down a quick 2 TDs to Peyton Manning or choking under Polamalu's hair after he's flattened on a blitz he hadn't seen in the regular season film?


I never said Jay would be any better out the gates. I just don't want to waste any more time on a lame duck. I see every minute of Jake ball as a wasted minute, as I don't believe he's capable of running the playoff gauntlet, and thus we're losing the opportunity to get our real quarterback precious experience. Jay might come out and completely choke. Who knows? I'd be alright with it, because I'd rather watch Jay choke right now and take his lumps than see Jake choking and play like a rookie. At least with Jay, I know there is some upside. As where on the other hand, we already know that "Jake is what he is."

This is what I want out of this season:

Either:
1) A Superbowl Trophy

or:
2) Experience for our Rookie


If we come away empty handed on both of these items, then IMO we will have just had a completely wasted season. Which to me is the direction this team is going in. It's hard to watch these games, believing as I do, that all that will happen is another playoff collapse where Jake throws mutliple picks and our defense is playing on its heels all day trying to make up for his mistakes, while he flounders the entire game and never really gets anything going.

I'm a Broncos fan, so I watch them, and feel as good as I can about the ugly wins all while feeling like a cow who just got a shovel between the eyes and is being led off to playoff slaughter. I want to see Plummer lead us to glory. I just don't believe he's capable. I think we're going to see another classic Plummer playoff and spend the entire offseason lamenting the fact that we wasted any more time on him, and arguing whether it's a Plummer problem, or a defense/Larry Coyer problem.

Then Plummer will get cut (no one is going to trade for him), and we're going to be heading into next season at square one with a rookie who has no playoff or late season experience to draw from.

Bottom line: I'd rather get a head start on next season while taking our best shot with our real quarterback, than gamble on Plummer.

So, to get back to the original point on "what makes you so sure Jay would be any better?" Nothing makes me sure. I just don't see how he could be any worse, or why we need to gamble our entire season on a lame duck.

[Northman]

don't you feel that if we put in Cutler it would put too much pressure on him to be a great QB and if he doesnt succeed he could turn into a little calmer version of Ryan Leaf with no confidence. As bad as Bronco fans are about analyzing QB play I think that it could almost burn him out if he had a bad end of the year and cost us a big game (playoffs or to get into the playoffs). The next thing you know he will be yelling at a reporter in the locker room. I think we should just enjoy the season with Plummer and hope he takes us to the promised land and let Cutlers time come when he is more ready.



You dont think Plummer feels that same pressure? It comes with the territory of being a NFL Qb. You either handle or you dont. If and when Jay comes in he is going to have to handle the the pressure regardless if its this year or next.

[Northman]

In the 4th quarter when the game was on the line Plummer was like 10-13 and led the Broncos dow for the winning TD......

Yes, it is very possible that Cutler could play worse than that.

What rookie QB is out there right now that is giving Bronco fans hope that Cutler will find success??

Young ain't winning
Lienart ain't winning
Gradakowski ain't winning.

everyone needs to give this Cutler thing a rest. It's embarrassing.


All of them have bad teams around them. Hence why you look at their individual play. That is what people are talking about. We all love winning but would like to see a Qb with 11 years experience actually play like it. Its one thing if Jake was being sacked every other down but he is making a lot of mistakes while given plenty of time in the pocket. Jake is just unable to make quick reads. If you look at Manning, he takes 2 steps and then the ball is gone. He knows exactly where the ball should be. Its not behind the receiver or into the ground. The thing is, we know Jake can play like that but he just isnt. And im sorry, it doenst take 9 games into the season to figure it out. The coach himself said the system hasnt changed so its not the new OC either. Jake just for some reason is playing like dirt. And thats all anyone is pointing out.

[Northman]

I never said Jay would be any better out the gates. I just don't want to waste any more time on a lame duck. I see every minute of Jake ball as a wasted minute, as I don't believe he's capable of running the playoff gauntlet, and thus we're losing the opportunity to get our real quarterback precious experience. Jay might come out and completely choke. Who knows? I'd be alright with it, because I'd rather watch Jay choke right now and take his lumps than see Jake choking and play like a rookie. At least with Jay, I know there is some upside. As where on the other hand, we already know that "Jake is what he is."

This is what I want out of this season:

Either:
1) A Superbowl Trophy

or:
2) Experience for our Rookie


If we come away empty handed on both of these items, then IMO we will have just had a completely wasted season. Which to me is the direction this team is going in. It's hard to watch these games, believing as I do, that all that will happen is another playoff collapse where Jake throws mutliple picks and our defense is playing on its heels all day trying to make up for his mistakes, while he flounders the entire game and never really gets anything going.

I'm a Broncos fan, so I watch them, and feel as good as I can about the ugly wins all while feeling like a cow who just got a shovel between the eyes and is being led off to playoff slaughter. I want to see Plummer lead us to glory. I just don't believe he's capable. I think we're going to see another classic Plummer playoff and spend the entire offseason lamenting the fact that we wasted any more time on him, and arguing whether it's a Plummer problem, or a defense/Larry Coyer problem.

Then Plummer will get cut (no one is going to trade for him), and we're going to be heading into next season at square one with a rookie who has no playoff or late season experience to draw from.

Bottom line: I'd rather get a head start on next season while taking our best shot with our real quarterback, than gamble on Plummer.

So, to get back to the original point on "what makes you so sure Jay would be any better?" Nothing makes me sure. I just don't see how he could be any worse, or why we need to gamble our entire season on a lame duck.


Nicely put.

[BroncoBuff]

Bottom line: I'd rather get a head start on next season while taking our best shot with our real quarterback, than gamble on Plummer.

So, to get back to the original point on "what makes you so sure Jay would be any better?" Nothing makes me sure. I just don't see how he could be any worse, or why we need to gamble our entire season on a lame duck.

Hard to argue after Sunday. I don't know if I've ever seen Jake throw so poorly. There was no wind in the stadium, but some of his passes in the first half looked like there was a gale-force storm.

I agree that the entire gamble is that Jake will play better THIS postseason than he has in the other three (four?). I see no reason to believe he will, so it seems a poor gamble to me on that basis.

There is another angle we haven't discussed much around here. Shanny talked a few weeks ago about how the other players on the team have to be ready for a new guy to come in - they have to 'buy into' the change. He talked about how some veterans might question such a move. Maybe there's a strong sentiment within the ranks for Jake.

[fontaine]

You're asking me to get in the head of Al Davis...they guy that traded away Gruden for draft picks?


You're thought process is just as faulty as it was when you were 12 apparently. It was a well known fact with everyone in the league that Gruden was going to leave Oakland because of Al's control over personnel.

Al simply got the most out of a coach that had no intentions of sticking around. He screwed the Bucs so badly (initially) that most here thought the raiders were set for a few years with two extra 1st rounders.

[fontaine]

This is what I want out of this season:

Either:
1) A Superbowl Trophy

or:
2) Experience for our Rookie


If we come away empty handed on both of these items, then IMO we will have just had a completely wasted season. Which to me is the direction this team is going in. It's hard to watch these games, believing as I do, that all that will happen is another playoff collapse where Jake throws mutliple picks and our defense is playing on its heels all day trying to make up for his mistakes, while he flounders the entire game and never really gets anything going.

This is the way I see it too, except I don't want Jay to start.

I had hoped that our league best defense would put our offense in a position that by the 4th quarter against inferior teams, we would see Shanahan rest Jake and see Jay in action for mop up duties.

Ofcourse, Jake screws up just enough almost every week by keeping the other team in there so Shanahan isn't even given the chance to send in Jay for mop up duties.

To me that would be the ideal solution without causing a QB controversy to spill into the lockerroom. If Jay did play well in mop up duties then it would give other defenses a lot more to gameplan for.

But what the hell do I know.

[Garcia Bronco]

You're thought process is just as faulty as it was when you were 12 apparently. It was a well known fact with everyone in the league that Gruden was going to leave Oakland because of Al's control over personnel.

Al simply got the most out of a coach that had no intentions of sticking around. He screwed the Bucs so badly (initially) that most here thought the raiders were set for a few years with two extra 1st rounders.

You miss the point...the guy should have done everything in his power to keep him there...which means compromise.

[fontaine]

You miss the point...the guy should have done everything in his power to keep him there...which means compromise.

Yeah, Al Davis has a real history of compromising with head coaches allright.

That must be why the best HC candidates routinely shun the faders coaching job.
ROFL!

[Garcia Bronco]

Yeah, Al Davis has a real history of compromising with head coaches allright.

That must be why the best HC candidates routinely shun the faders coaching job.
ROFL!

that's why I said it's not crazy to think he would trade Lachey for Jay Schroeder. For the love of pete...please read the posts

[fontaine]

This is the way I see it too, except I don't want Jay to start.

I had hoped that our league best defense would put our offense in a position that by the 4th quarter against inferior teams, we would see Shanahan rest Jake and see Jay in action for mop up duties.

Ofcourse, Jake screws up just enough almost every week by keeping the other team in there so Shanahan isn't even given the chance to send in Jay for mop up duties.

To me that would be the ideal solution without causing a QB controversy to spill into the lockerroom. If Jay did play well in mop up duties then it would give other defenses a lot more to gameplan for.

But what the hell do I know.


Bump.

I really hope this is the way it turns out. I'm pessimistic about our chances of going through 3/4 games to win SuperBowl via the AFC.

Maybe if we were in the NFC, but we need a good signal caller to compete with the likes of Brady, Rivers, Manning, Palmer etc who are going to dominate the AFC playoff picture for the next 5 years or so, and I hope we can give Cutler as much mop up duties this season to give him enough experience to build on so we can hit the ground running next year.

[Taco John]

For the record, there was a point in time when Gruden WANTED to stay in Oakland. But the more Al insulted him, the less he wanted to.

[BroncoFanCam]

Amd I get satisfaction from winning, not from Jake being on the field.

****ing idiots.Then why the hell are you and all your freaking cohorts so anti-Jay?

If you are as unbiased and "middle of the road" as you claim, you would see that there is a 99% Chance that Cutler plays as "well"/better than Jake has so far.

To surpass Jake's crappiness, he would have to perform at such an unbelieveably low level it would be disgusting.

Common sense tells us that, that is very very very unlikely.

You guys kill me...

[sirhcyennek81]

I dont see how a rookie could be substantially better then Plummer. Cutler will be very good...in the future. I wonder how many people in 1992 thought Maddox would have been just as good as Elway when the Broncos drafted him in the 1st round.

:Broncos:

[Kaylore]

I'll give Jake credit. His ability to keep us close in every game, regardless of the opponent, pretty much guarantees we'll never get to see what Jay can do in garbage time.

I've become suspicious of this as well.

[BroncoFanCam]

I dont see how a rookie could be substantially better then Plummer. Cutler will be very good...in the future. I wonder how many people in 1992 thought Maddox would have been just as good as Elway when the Broncos drafted him in the 1st round.

:Broncos:
Who said a damn thing about "substantially"?!?!?!?!!?!?

Even if he EQUALS Jake's garbage-ass play, we are in effect GAINING something in getting him experience early on, as opposed to spinning our wheels with someone on his way out.

And in getting his much needed experience he will undoubtedly get better and better as time goes on, whereas Jake has shown he cannot/will not.

[sirhcyennek81]

Who said a damn thing about "substantially"?!?!?!?!!?!?

Even if he EQUALS Jake's garbage-ass play, we are in effect GAINING something in getting him experience early on, as opposed to spinning our wheels with someone on his way out.

And in getting his much needed experience he will undoubtedly get better and better as time goes on, whereas Jake has shown he cannot/will not.


I am happy you dont coach the Broncos. This may be difficult for you to comprehend, but the odds of a rookie QB pulling a Ben Roethlisberger is slim. Our offense would be more limited then it is now, simply because of how much is built into the Broncos Offense. No player has ever learned the entire offense in 8 months. Plummer simply gives us the best chance to win now. A 7-2 record confirms that. Enjoy the season, and stop crying so much.

:Broncos:

:Broncos:

[dbfan21]

so can someone clear this up for me, because im getting confused. If Cutler played like Plummer it would be OK? Im no rocket scientist, but either way someones gonna throw 3 picks in a game and still WIN. Why throw a young QB who could be better than Jake into that kind of fire. Bottom Line is Jake isnt playing that bad, he may throw a couple stupid picks but overall hes an above average QB... get over it.

I was thinking the same exact thing. Let's not get our future QB killed just for the sake of getting Jake out of there. Shanahan knows who's best for this team, not armchair QB's like us. Let's trust the coaching staff to make the right decision. Jay will be in there when the timing is right for everyone.

[Sassy]

I was thinking the same exact thing. Let's not get our future QB killed just for the sake of getting Jake out of there. Shanahan knows who's best for this team, not armchair QB's like us. Let's trust the coaching staff to make the right decision. Jay will be in there when the timing is right for everyone.

Good answer!

Why does it have to be Plummer or Anti Plummer...can't fans just cheer for what's best for the team...and no, we don't know if Jay is the answer either...and the team is winning. It would be nice to see the Offense that we were used to in the Elway Days... I don't know about you, but I'll take the "W"s.

[BroncoFanCam]

I am happy you dont coach the Broncos. This may be difficult for you to comprehend, but the odds of a rookie QB pulling a Ben Roethlisberger is slim. Our offense would be more limited then it is now, simply because of how much is built into the Broncos Offense. No player has ever learned the entire offense in 8 months. Plummer simply gives us the best chance to win now. A 7-2 record confirms that. Enjoy the season, and stop crying so much.

:Broncos:

:Broncos:No comprende inglés???

I just told you that I don't expect Cutler to be amazingly better than Jake, but rather equal what Jake has done and possibly slightly exceed that standard (which has been set pretty low).

If he does either, we come out ahead having him in there as opposed to Jake who is gone whether you like it or not after this season.

[sirhcyennek81]

No comprende inglés???

I just told you that I don't expect Cutler to be amazingly better than Jake, but rather equal what Jake has done and possibly slightly exceed that standard (which has been set pretty low).

If he does either, we come out ahead having him in there as opposed to Jake who is gone whether you like it or not after this season.


I love the fact the Broncos have Cutler. But I see Mike Shanahan bringing him along ala Palmer rather then throw him in there, like the Bucs are doing with Gradkowski. Both approaches work, but i prefer the Palmer method. We are winning WITH Jake, why would you want that to end simply because a rookie MIGHT play as well?

:Broncos:

[Taco John]

Then why the hell are you and all your freaking cohorts so anti-Jay?

If you are as unbiased and "middle of the road" as you claim, you would see that there is a 99% Chance that Cutler plays as "well"/better than Jake has so far.

To surpass Jake's crappiness, he would have to perform at such an unbelieveably low level it would be disgusting.

Common sense tells us that, that is very very very unlikely.

You guys kill me...



Look! Can't you just accept that you've got the brain power of a gnat compared to Alec, and should just give up on thinking altogether and just accept his point of view? Clearly Alec doesn't just love Jake. He loves winning. Except in the playoffs. Where apparently he's ambivalent, except where Coyer is concerned. That Coyer! OOOooooooooh! *shaking backward fist*

[BroncoFanCam]

Look! Can't you just accept that you've got the brain power of a gnat compared to Alec, and should just give up on thinking altogether and just accept his point of view? Clearly Alec doesn't just love Jake. He loves winning. Except in the playoffs. Where apparently he's ambivalent, except where Coyer is concerned. That Coyer! OOOooooooooh! *shaking backward fist*

thwack - TJ Keeping things straight....



^5

[labronx]

I've become suspicious of this as well.

yeah count me in.

I think Plummer is maybe throwing the games(No Pun Intended) on purpose.

Leaving Shanny in a hole.

:pimp:

[Arkansas Bronco]

yeah count me in.

I think Plummer is maybe throwing the games(No Pun Intended) on purpose.

Leaving Shanny in a hole.

:pimp:

Dont realy think he is doing it but take this instance. Your boss told you (or it was painfuly obvious) that you have one more year there and they are going to replace you. Would you work your ass off for the company (team) or would it gt to you and you have a more **** it attitude. Again I am not saying Jake is doing this on purpose but the situation may have gotten the best of him and we are dealing with what is left.

[Gcver2ver3]

I'm sure this has been mentioned but I don't feel like reading through pages of posts....

I totally agree with the thread title...I've been close to starting the very same thread....

Do i know whether or not jay will do better than jake?....no....but the logic is that cutler could do NO WORSE...jay cutler can throw 3 picks in a game just like plummer...

plus...the team would certainly be energized with the young gunslinger at the helm....the excitement level would be off the charts....that guy has the arm to make the throws that we need plus he's mobile...i say let the guy learn now...worse case scenario he plays badly (like jake) AND gets valuable experience....

it baffles me that people on this board actually want to leave plummer in...for what?...he's playing at a level that cutler can only surpass...cutler will do no worse...

my goal for the team is a SB title...let's wake up folks...it ain't happening with plummer...will it happen with cutler this year?...the answer to that is IT DOESN'T MATTER...because the bottom line is we ain't gonna win it with plummer...so let's start moving forward with something that actually at least has a chance to turn into something special..

to do otherwise is just wasting precious time

[Bronx33]

I'm sure this has been mentioned but I don't feel like reading through pages of posts....

I totally agree with the thread title...I've been close to starting the very same thread....

Do i know whether or not jay will do better than jake?....no....but the logic is that cutler could do NO WORSE...jay cutler can throw 3 picks in a game just like plummer...

plus...the team would certainly be energized with the young gunslinger at the helm....the excitement level would be off the charts....that guy has the arm to make the throws that we need plus he's mobile...i say let the guy learn now...worse case scenario he plays badly (like jake) AND gets valuable experience....

it baffles me that people on this board actually want to leave plummer in...for what?...he's playing at a level that cutler can only surpass...cutler will do no worse...

my goal for the team is a SB title...let's wake up folks...it ain't happening with plummer...will it happen with cutler this year?...the answer to that is IT DOESN'T MATTER...because the bottom line is we ain't gonna win it with plummer...so let's start moving forward with something that actually at least has a chance to turn into something special..

to do otherwise is just wasting precious time


And if cutler comes in a stinks the joint up (like a rookie) then what? plummer is in for a reason (ask mike) and i will say this one more time, if you all want to throw he season away sunday and roll the dice then fine (start cutler) UNTIL the broncos are losing and the season is toast (you will not see cutler) end of story (no contest) we hired a smart coach for a reason. Mike is dealing with what he has on the table and throwing a rookie QB in just for the fun of it when the season (is not lost) is flat stupid.

[Gcver2ver3]

And if cutler comes in a stinks the joint up (like a rookie) then what?


then i'd assume we would've lost with plummer as well....because cutler can do no worse than plummer...

that was an easy question...

thnx

[Bronco_Beerslug]

No player has ever learned the entire offense in 8 months.
Entire offense? Are we running the entire offense or the dummy version?

[Sassy]

I just have the weirdest feeling Shanahan has something up his sleeve.
...and its not Jay Cutler.

[Bronx33]

then i'd assume we would've lost with plummer as well....because cutler can do no worse than plummer...

that was an easy question...

thnx

Fact is if you put cutler in now (you throw the season into the wind) granted i understand what you are saying, it's just not the logical decision from a head coaches point of view. Again (we are not having a losing season) end of story.

[Gcver2ver3]

Fact is if you put cutler in now (you throw the season into the wind) granted i understand what you are saying, it's just not the logical decision from a head coaches point of view. Again (we are not having a losing season) end of story.

i hear ya....but it's SB or bust...so in other words...

not winning SB = losing season...

so from my perspective...may as well go with cutler cuz jake ain't taking us to the big game...

[riiiiick]

you guys have convinced me that cutler would play better than jake, look better than jake, and make some great exciting plays. can he do it for a career, who knows? but to say without doubt that he couldn't lose more games by his mistakes than jake has lost, is hard for me to accept. history tells me rookies untimely mistakes cost their team wins. ben is the only exception and he averaged only 17 throws a game. we he is asked to throw 25-35 times a game he struggles even now. jay couldn't do any worse? he could be better in many areas, in the win loss column he could do much, much worse.

[Cito Pelon]

Entire offense? Are we running the entire offense or the dummy version?

Plummer knows plays from years past that obviosly Jay does not. It's easier to draw stuff up on the fly with Jake.

Look, for Shanny to bench Jake is just too much. It's just way too risky. If you expected that in games past you were howling at the moon. If you expect it now it's the same situation. For Shanny to do that really is saying "Well, team, we're gonna roll the dice on the season's success."

[Gcver2ver3]

you guys have convinced me that cutler would play better than jake, look be jay couldn't do any worse? he could be better in many areas, in the win loss column he could do much, much worse.


i disagree....


plummer hasn't won us ball games...the defense and javon walker has...

cutler could throw it up to walker just as easily....and make other plays as well....

cutler can do no worse

[BroncoFanCam]

you guys have convinced me that cutler would play better than jake, look better than jake, and make some great exciting plays. can he do it for a career, who knows? but to say without doubt that he couldn't lose more games by his mistakes than jake has lost, is hard for me to accept. history tells me rookies untimely mistakes cost their team wins. ben is the only exception and he averaged only 17 throws a game. we he is asked to throw 25-35 times a game he struggles even now. jay couldn't do any worse? he could be better in many areas, in the win loss column he could do much, much worse.Tell me...

Are these untimely errors you speak of, things like turning the ball over inside your own redzone?

'Cause if you haven't noticed Jake is an expert in that field.

[Bronx33]

i hear ya....but it's SB or bust...so in other words...

not winning SB = losing season...

so from my perspective...may as well go with cutler cuz jake ain't taking us to the big game...




No


Plummer = a chance/ based on experience

Cutler = a great unknown / gamble


Now i know jake can't go the distance but from a head coaches stand point there is no way cutler goes any distance and if your using slothlessburger and brady and an example as to what a rooke can do. That type situiation is one in a million and does not happen very often (which is fact) fact is having a winning season (knowing) the superbowl is way out of reach is good business for those envolved no? gambling the season away on a rookie (is not good business) no? the choice is so obvious it's not even remotely funny. Think about it from an owners perspective how would you want to finish the season? from a financial perspective. End the season on a down note throwing a rook in the fire letting his ego getting beatin possiably damaged OR
start the year out fresh and give the kid a fair shake to prove himself?

[Gcver2ver3]

No


Plummer = a chance/ based on experience

Cutler = a great unknown / gamble


Now i know jake can't go the distance but from a head coaches stand point there is no way cutler goes any distance and if your using slothlessburger and brady and an example as to what a rooke can do. That type situiation is one in a million and does not happen very often (which is fact) fact is having a winning season (knowing) the superbowl is way out of reach is good business for those envolved no? gambling the season away on a rookie (is not good business) no? the choice is so obvious it's not even remotely funny. Think about it from an owners perspective how would you want to finish the season? from a financial perspective. End the season on a down note throwing a rook in the fire letting his ego getting beatin possiably damaged OR
start the year out fresh and give the kid a fair shake to prove himself?

i don't buy into the "damaging a qb" business....

throwing the qb in the fire has proven to be as (if not more) successful than coddling them for a year or two...

plummer will not win us the big game...so i'm tired of wasting time...

if you're the type that's looking to get married and you're dating a girl you know you aren't gonna marry...you're wasting your time...move onto someone you think there is a chance with

[Bronx33]

i don't buy into the "damaging a qb" business....

throwing the qb in the fire has proven to be as (if not more) successful than coddling them for a year or two...

plummer will not win us the big game...so i'm tired of wasting time...

if you're the type that's looking to get married and you're dating a girl you know you aren't gonna marry...you're wasting your time...move onto someone you think there is a chance with



Ok fair enough i will throw the damaging a young QB issue and since logically it could go either way right, now we have gone full circle and have to think about this from a head coaches perspective. We have to base this on the (now) or the season in hand correct? now you have to ask yourself (from a coaches perspective) is the season lost ? yes or no. Now based on the QB choices you have a veteran playing shaky football OR you have a unproven rookie and thus far in the season your shaky QB/ with help has managed a 7-2 season. Based on the CURRENT criteria the choice at QB is very simple not to mention the other end of the spectrum being the financial end (which yes is concidered). Now just so you know i have never really been a big plummer fan so zero homerism is envolved ok, iam looking at this logically as i possiably can it envolves zero (shooting from the hip) based on mikes past actions as our head coach. (your shooting from the hip)
.

[riiiiick]

Tell me...

Are these untimely errors you speak of, things like turning the ball over inside your own redzone?

'Cause if you haven't noticed Jake is an expert in that field.

true, but the team or jake or both recover from his mistakes with almost uncanny results 75% of the time. why is that? i say, it's because he is a winner. not great all around skills, but a gutty never quit, never give up leader that his team respects. to say for certain, cutler has that quality is unfounded at best.

[Gcver2ver3]

Ok fair enough i will throw the damaging a young QB issue and since logically it could go either way right, now we have gone full circle and have to think about this from a head coaches perspective. We have to base this on the (now) or the season in hand correct? now you have to ask yourself (from a coaches perspective) is the season lost ? yes or no. Now based on the QB choices you have a veteran playing shaky football OR you have a unproven rookie and thus far in the season your shaky QB/ with help has managed a 7-2 season. Based on the CURRENT criteria the choice at QB is very simple not to mention the other end of the spectrum being the financial end (which yes is concidered). Now just so you know i have never really been a big plummer fan so zero homerism is envolved ok, iam looking at this logically as i possiably can it envolves zero (shooting from the hip) based on mikes past actions as our head coach. (your shooting from the hip)
.



well put.....

i don't necessarily agree....but i can't argue with the logic

[riiiiick]

i disagree....


plummer hasn't won us ball games...the defense and javon walker has...

cutler could throw it up to walker just as easily....and make other plays as well....

cutler can do no worse

you are certain cutler will be that same never quit, never give up leader (even when he personally is playing like crap!) that earns the respect of his team mates that jake has been? and certain cutler will win 75% of his games?how do you know that?

[Gcver2ver3]

you are certain cutler will be that same never quit, never give up leader (even when he personally is playing like crap!) that earns the respect of his team mates that jake has been? and certain cutler will win 75% of his games?how do you know that?


no i don't know that....

i give jake credit for his fight...in fact let me assure you i can show you posts of me defending plummer to the end...i actually once made the comment on this board that i want to see plummer retire here...(which i still do but as a backup)

but i finally stopped making excuses for the guy...his "fight"..and "courage"...eventually runs out if his performance is poor...

i feel we need to do something now before he starts losing games....cuz it's coming...

[Bronx33]

no i don't know that....

i give jake credit for his fight...in fact let me assure you i can show you posts of me defending plummer to the end...i actually once made the comment on this board that i want to see plummer retire here...(which i still do but as a backup)

but i finally stopped making excuses for the guy...his "fight"..and "courage"...eventually runs out if his performance is poor...

i feel we need to do something now before he starts losing games....cuz it's coming...


I don't disagree but until this time (we will not see cutler)

[BroncoFanCam]

true, but the team or jake or both recover from his mistakes with almost uncanny results 75% of the time. why is that? i say, it's because he is a winner. not great all around skills, but a gutty never quit, never give up leader that his team respects. to say for certain, cutler has that quality is unfounded at best.Did you know that 75% of percentages are "made up" 83% of the time?

And that is hogwash at any rate, Jake's mistakes (especially in our redzone) have been directly responsible for our opponents scoring points.

I don't call that uncanny, I find it to be expected.

[Gcver2ver3]

I don't disagree but until this time (we will not see cutler)

you're prolly right...but if we lose sunday night and plummer stinks again...do you think cutler will be named the starter then?

[Sassy]

I wonder if Jake's play would improve if he had one game where the fans didn't boo him and call for Cutler.

[Gcver2ver3]

Did you know that 75% of percentages are "made up" 83% of the time?

And that is hogwash at any rate, Jake's mistakes (especially in our redzone) have been directly responsible for our opponents scoring points.

I don't call that uncanny, I find it to be expected.


wow....couldn't agree more.....

[Gcver2ver3]

I wonder if Jake's play would improve if he had one game where the fans didn't boo him and call for Cutler.

i haven't been to a broncos game...but if i did i can guarantee that i'd never boo my qb....booing him won't help his play moving forward...if anythin, it'll lower his morale...

even if it is for selfish reasons....i wouldn't boo the guy during a game cuz it can only make matters worse...

besides..i like jake...he's a warrior...i just am tired of worrying about him making mistakes when he drops back to pass....

[BroncoFanCam]

I wonder if Jake's play would improve if he had one game where the fans didn't boo him and call for Cutler.
:rofl:

I fear we will not find out the answer to that question, not this week anyways.

(And doesn'tr he get 8 of those a year? - road games)

[Bronx33]

you're prolly right...but if we lose sunday night and plummer stinks again...do you think cutler will be named the starter then?


Nope......

That's where alot of folks are being impatient we do not have a reliable backup (we have a rookie) maybe shanahan is gunshy from the danny kannels (shudder) the steve berliens* the BVPs we don't have a good quality backup now. Changing of the guard is underway question is are some bronco fans patient enough to weather the storm.

[BroncoFanCam]

i haven't been to a broncos game...but if i did i can guarantee that i'd never boo my qb....booing him won't help his play moving forward...if anythin, it'll lower his morale...

even if it is for selfish reasons....i wouldn't boo the guy during a game cuz it can only make matters worse...

besides..i like jake...he's a warrior...i just am tired of worrying about him making mistakes when he drops back to pass....I wouldn't "BOO!" per-se...

More like...

"OMG!!!! WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT JAKE?!?!?!?!?!"

[riiiiick]

Did you know that 75% of percentages are "made up" 83% of the time?

And that is hogwash at any rate, Jake's mistakes (especially in our redzone) have been directly responsible for our opponents scoring points.

I don't call that uncanny, I find it to be expected.

i call mistakes, football. mistakes aren't the issue, they are part of the game. did you beat the other guy today, thats all that counts to me.

[BroncoFanCam]

i call mistakes, football.

There is so much wrong with that statement.

Mistakes do not equal football, not championship football anyways.

Execution makes champions not mistakes, and childish blunders.

[Sassy]

I was at the game in Denver against KC...there were quite a few fans screaming (and booing Jake) for Cutler before Jake even threw an INT...If you had to listen to 75,000 fans...or quite a few of them anyway...wouldn't that shake your confidence some? I have no doubt that it has to be wearing on a QB week in and out at HOME.

Question...To those that have attended home games this year...has it been like that every home game?

[Gcver2ver3]

I wouldn't "BOO!" per-se...

More like...

"OMG!!!! WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT JAKE?!?!?!?!?!"

Hilarious! ...........LOL

[BroncoFanCam]

There is so much wrong with that statement.

Mistakes do not equal football, not championship football anyways.

Execution makes champions not mistakes, and childish blunders.I must also add THIS (http://www.moviewavs.com/0085934086/WAVS/Movies/Princess_Bride/blunders.wav)

Just because it's funny, and he says blunder...

[Gcver2ver3]

I must also add THIS (http://www.moviewavs.com/0085934086/WAVS/Movies/Princess_Bride/blunders.wav)

Just because it's funny, and he says blunder...


that was pretty good...i recognize that voice...that guy played a next door neighbor on the Cosby Show

[Gcver2ver3]

I must also add THIS (http://www.moviewavs.com/0085934086/WAVS/Movies/Princess_Bride/blunders.wav)

Just because it's funny, and he says blunder...


speaking about your signature...

have you bought Gears of War yet?

[BroncoFanCam]

that was pretty good...i recognize that voice...that guy played a next door neighbor on the Cosby ShowThe Princess Bride, .... Classic.

And Gears of War... That's a negatory, is it a good one? I don't play near enough as I used to (18mo old boys tend to take up a lot of time), but explain, I haven't looked at anything about this game.

[Gcver2ver3]

The Princess Bride, .... Classic.

And Gears of War... That's a negatory, is it a good one? I don't play near enough as I used to (18mo old boys tend to take up a lot of time), but explain, I haven't looked at anything about this game.

Err...did you just change your sig?

i thought for sure it was an X box 360 sig...is my mind playing tricks on me?...

anyway...Gear of War is the most anticipated game of the year (until halo 3 comes out)....it is considered the greatest graphics of any console game in history...

it's game play is unrivaled...it is amazing and it's online play is rated top notch..

it's the latest generation 1st person shooter...google some reviews for it...you'll see what i'm talkin bout....

[BroncoFanCam]

Err...did you just change your sig?

i thought for sure it was an X box 360 sig...is my mind playing tricks on me?...

anyway...Gear of War is the most anticipated game of the year (until halo 3 comes out)....it is considered the greatest graphics of any console game in history...

it's game play is unrivaled...it is amazing and it's online play is rated top notch..

it's the latest generation 1st person shooter...google some reviews for it...you'll see what i'm talkin bout....It's a random image...

http://www.randomsignature.com/

Best thing since bottled milk...

And I shall have to read up on this game, shooting things video game style = hours of fun.

[Bronx33]

Iam lazy whats the system requirements for Gear of War? or is it even avialiable for PC?

[Rigs11]

Err...did you just change your sig?

i thought for sure it was an X box 360 sig...is my mind playing tricks on me?...

anyway...Gear of War is the most anticipated game of the year (until halo 3 comes out)....it is considered the greatest graphics of any console game in history...

it's game play is unrivaled...it is amazing and it's online play is rated top notch..

it's the latest generation 1st person shooter...google some reviews for it...you'll see what i'm talkin bout....

Gears of War is pretty sweet. I'm about 2 hours into it.Haven't tried the online yet.Oh by the way... Jake over Cutler this year.

[Cito Pelon]

i hear ya....but it's SB or bust...so in other words...

not winning SB = losing season...

so from my perspective...may as well go with cutler cuz jake ain't taking us to the big game...

"Not winning SB=losing season."

BBBBBBBBBbbaaaaaaahhhhhhahhhhhhhhhahahahaha! Sorry, that's just goofy.

Baaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahaha !

Sorry, that was a belly-laugher.

[Gcver2ver3]

"Not winning SB=losing season."

BBBBBBBBBbbaaaaaaahhhhhhahhhhhhhhhahahahaha! Sorry, that's just goofy.

Baaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahaha !

Sorry, that was a belly-laugher.

that's the mentality of all WINNING organizations...

i bet you weren't laughing when we lost at home in the afc championship game last season....

and if you were then THAT is just goofy

[Gcver2ver3]

Iam lazy whats the system requirements for Gear of War? or is it even avialiable for PC?

Xbox 360 required my man...

nice avy btw....:wiggle:

[BroncoFanCam]

"Not winning SB=losing season."

BBBBBBBBBbbaaaaaaahhhhhhahhhhhhhhhahahahaha! Sorry, that's just goofy.

Baaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahaha !

Sorry, that was a belly-laugher.I am sure every NFL player and coach in existence feels ashamed that they completely disagree with you.

Perhaps you have never listened to a team/player/coach after their season has finished short of their only goal... Winning the Bowl.

[riiiiick]

There is so much wrong with that statement.

Mistakes do not equal football, not championship football anyways.

Execution makes champions not mistakes, and childish blunders.

i just meant, the best miss 40% of their passes. you could call most of those incompletions a mistake on someones part. the best throw 12 pics a year, again mistakes. it's just part of the game of football. the best get sacked, someone made a mistake. fumbles, etc. it's football. i watched the old dallas/sf nfc champ game a few weeks ago on espn, where montana hits clark in the back of the endzone for the win. montana had 3 pics and a fumble in that game. poor throws, wobbly, behind recievers, etc yet all anyone remembers is he won that game. that's football.

[No1BroncoFan]

You know. It's really isn't about who the better quarterback is. It's not about "the guy I like is better than the guy you like." It's about winning and who gives us the best chance of it. Jay Cutler is the best QB candidate we've had here since 1983. Hell, he could be the next Favre, the next Montana. The next Elw... er... nevermind. He'll never be that. Anyhow, he could become one of the greats. Right now, it doesn't matter. There is one reason and one reason only that Shanahan keeps starting Jake. Cutler doesn't give us the best chance to win. No, that is not a jab at his abilities. No, it's not an excuse for Jake (though many of you will take it as such). It's simply what the coach obviously feels (Mike's the one who keeps trotting Plummer out there, not me).

If you could replace Jake with Jay and all else be equal then the Broncos are likely a better team with Jay than they are with Jake. Here's the rub. Not all will remain equal. Our opponents would game-plan differently for Cutler than they would for Plummer. Instead of "stop the run and make Jake beat us," now you get "who cares about the run, let's kill the quarterback." Standard fare of defenses facing rookie QBs since time out of mind. Since the defenses we'll face will game-plan differently, we'll have to change our offensive game-plan to compensate and likely go into full-on max protect and a limited playbook. Now, we've got this wonderful new game-plan that no-one on the team has practiced for, and we've got defensive lines and blitzing safeties trying to tear our shiny new QB's head off. That puts is in a worse position than we're in right now. It wouldn't be Cutler's fault. Just like some of the losses that have been pinned on Jake weren't his fault.

Then there's thst whole team chemistry thing. And, let's not forget the chemistry between Jake and his receivers. As good as Cutler is likely to be, team chemistry will likely suffer and the QB/receiver chemistry hasn't been developed yet.

Jake is not the long term answer, but he's the only viable answer for now. There are some here who believe the chances of winning the Superbowl with Jake are zero. With the conditions Cutler and the offense would face, that's still a better chance than we'd have with him under center.

Bring on the Cutler era. I await it with baited breath. I too am tired of watching Plummer nearly piss away games to scrub competition. But, the 2006 season isn't over and Jake, barring injury, ain't goin' anywhere yet.

Ben

[Garcia Bronco]

i hear ya....but it's SB or bust...so in other words...

not winning SB = losing season...

so from my perspective...may as well go with cutler cuz jake ain't taking us to the big game...


So you've given up on the season...lame.

[freak6]

Bring on the Cutler era. I too am tired of watching Plummer nearly piss away games to scrub competition.

Ben

It's refreshing to see more diehard fans like you have an open and objective perspective. You are wise Ben. But it's funny how noone calls you a fairweather fan, a cut and runner, giving up on the season, etc...Even though I am sure we both bleed the same color.

<font color =orange><b>ORANGE

[Gcver2ver3]

So you've given up on the season...lame.

if that's all you took from my comments then......

eh..it's late...i'm not up for throwing insults tonight...

have at it garcia....

[Dedhed]

"Not winning SB=losing season."

BBBBBBBBBbbaaaaaaahhhhhhahhhhhhhhhahahahaha! Sorry, that's just goofy.

Baaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahaha !

Sorry, that was a belly-laugher.

With people who think like this, it's no wonder there are still Jake supporters out there.

[Gcver2ver3]

With people who think like this, it's no wonder there are still Jake supporters out there.

rep

[Gcver2ver3]

It's refreshing to see more diehard fans like you have an open and objective perspective. You are wise Ben. But it's funny how noone calls you a fairweather fan, a cut and runner, giving up on the season, etc...Even though I am sure we both bleed the same color.

<font color =orange><b>ORANGE

rep

[-Slap-]

Who said a damn thing about "substantially"?!?!?!?!!?!?

Even if he EQUALS Jake's garbage-ass play, we are in effect GAINING something in getting him experience early on, as opposed to spinning our wheels with someone on his way out.

And in getting his much needed experience he will undoubtedly get better and better as time goes on, whereas Jake has shown he cannot/will not.

This is such an elementary point it shouldn't even require explanation.

Alas...

[BroncoFanCam]

This is such an elementary point it shouldn't even require explanation.

Alas...

Square Peg (Common Sense)

Round Hole (Jake Worshippers)

Pound, and pound, and pound, to no avail.

[Taco John]

I wonder if Jake's play would improve if he had one game where the fans didn't boo him and call for Cutler.



If that's what's affecting him, then he's much worse than I've given him credit for. No way should the fans be able to get into a pro quarterback's head like that.

[Taco John]

i call mistakes, football. mistakes aren't the issue, they are part of the game. did you beat the other guy today, thats all that counts to me.


Did you ever play football at any level? Because the first thing every coach I've ever had drilled into our team was that they will not put up with mental errors. Mental errors cost games. A mistake is a mental error. You beat the other guy by forcing him to make mental errors, while you don't make any yourself.

Mistakes aren't football. And they are very much the issue.

[Crushaholic]

I must also add THIS (http://www.moviewavs.com/0085934086/WAVS/Movies/Princess_Bride/blunders.wav)

Just because it's funny, and he says blunder...

The Princess Bride was a GREAT movie. ^5

[Northman]

I wonder if Jake's play would improve if he had one game where the fans didn't boo him and call for Cutler.



I know it would improve immensely if he didnt turn the ball over more than once a game. :thumbs:

[BroncoBuff]

Who said a damn thing about "substantially"?!?!?!?!!?!?

Even if he EQUALS Jake's garbage-ass play, we are in effect GAINING something in getting him experience early on, as opposed to spinning our wheels with someone on his way out.

And in getting his much needed experience he will undoubtedly get better and better as time goes on, whereas Jake has shown he cannot/will not.

That's an excellent argument, but Shanny obviously has a reason.

Like I posted before, Shanny has been quoted that a coach can't just stick a rookie into the lineup and expect the teams - the veterans - to go along happily. He said that the locker room has to be READY for the change. And Jake has made a lotta friends in that locker room. Rod Smith said the idea of starting Cutler wasd "crazy." Coming from Rod, that's a powerful indication of how such a move might go over with the team.

I know, I know, Shanny's the coach and the players should do what they're told. I hear that. But team chemistry and cameraderie are tenuous factors. What if Cutler started at Oakland, threw two picks in the first half, and we lost? Think about that for a minute

[-Slap-]

That's an excellent argument, but Shanny obviously has a reason.

Like I posted before, Shanny has been quoted that a coach can't just stick a rookie into the lineup and expect the teams - the veterans - to go along happily. He said that the locker room has to be READY for the change. And Jake has made a lotta friends in that locker room. Rod Smith said the idea of starting Cutler wasd "crazy." Coming from Rod, that's a powerful indication of how such a move might go over with the team.

I know, I know, Shanny's the coach and the players should do what they're told. I hear that. But team chemistry and cameraderie are tenuous factors. What if Cutler started at Oakland, threw two picks in the first half, and we lost? Think about that for a minute

Yeah, you guys are right, Rod Smith would lead a lockerroom revolt against Mike Shanahan if Mike decided to change quarterbacks.

ROFL!

[riiiiick]

Did you ever play football at any level? Because the first thing every coach I've ever had drilled into our team was that they will not put up with mental errors. Mental errors cost games. A mistake is a mental error. You beat the other guy by forcing him to make mental errors, while you don't make any yourself.

Mistakes aren't football. And they are very much the issue.

yes and coached. i just mean they are a reality of any sport. couldn't incompletions be considered a mistake? you don't want them, but you know 40 times out of 100 you will get them. coaches know this and usually don't want to throw 40-50 times a game. since they are a reality of the game, overcoming mistakes is an vital quality in a player and a team.

[Dedhed]

yes and coached. i just mean they are a reality of any sport. couldn't incompletions be considered a mistake? you don't want them, but you know 40 times out of 100 you will get them. coaches know this and usually don't want to throw 40-50 times a game. since they are a reality of the game, overcoming mistakes is an vital quality in a player and a team.
Minimizing mistakes is a much more important aspect of the game. With Jake, the rest of the team is forced to overcome b/c with Plummer, minimizing is almost impossible; Even when you've stripped the playbook to the bare bones in an attempt to minimize even the opportunities for mistakes, he manages to squeeze more than his share in there.

[BroncoBuff]

Yeah, you guys are right, Rod Smith would lead a lockerroom revolt against Mike Shanahan if Mike decided to change quarterbacks.

ROFL!

I said nothing like that .... and I'm only repeating what Shanny said. C'mon, Slap, Shanny obviously has some reason why Jake is still in there - you don't like my explanation? Fine. Then why do YOU think Shanny still has Jake in there?

I think my explanation is pretty realistic .... the players really like Jake. Ask Peter King.

[-Slap-]

I said nothing like that .... and I'm only repeating what Shanny said. C'mon, Slap, Shanny obviously has some reason why Jake is still in there - you don't like my explanation? Fine. Then why do YOU think Shanny still has Jake in there?

Because he's scared.

[BroncoBuff]

The only thing we have to fear .... is Jake himself!

[-Slap-]

I'm not picking on you specifically, BBuff.

I just think its a crazy notion (advanced by many) that Rod Smith would just say, "screw this season" if Shanahan changed quarterbacks. I think he would run into a wall for The Kid, just like he does for Jake every week.

[jonny1]

With people who think like this, it's no wonder there are still Jake supporters out there.

There is a difference between a losing season and a disappointing season.

2-14 is a losing season. Losing in the AFC Championship game is a disappointing season. 31 teams have a 'disappointing' season.

I am a Jake supporter. You want to know why? Because he is the STARTING QB!!! Pretty bold of me, wouldn't you say?

And I will support him until he is no longer the starter, whether it is Sunday or next year.

[fontaine]

I'm not picking on you specifically, BBuff.

I just think its a crazy notion (advanced by many) that Rod Smith would just say, "screw this season" if Shanahan changed quarterbacks. I think he would run into a wall for The Kid, just like he does for Jake every week.

Yup. Watching Rod dive into the ground near the goaline to make that catch off his toes while a defender speared into his dislocated shoulder is something the guy just does regardless of how poorly thrown the pass was.

[Pendejo]

yes and coached. i just mean they are a reality of any sport. couldn't incompletions be considered a mistake? you don't want them, but you know 40 times out of 100 you will get them. coaches know this and usually don't want to throw 40-50 times a game. since they are a reality of the game, overcoming mistakes is a vital quality in a player and a team.

Yeah, and Plummer gives the Donks plenty of mistakes to overcome. So they should be chalk full of that vital quality.

[riiiiick]

Minimizing mistakes is a much more important aspect of the game. With Jake, the rest of the team is forced to overcome b/c with Plummer, minimizing is almost impossible; Even when you've stripped the playbook to the bare bones in an attempt to minimize even the opportunities for mistakes, he manages to squeeze more than his share in there.

sunday is a good example. horrible start (again!) 2 pics, then his numbers were good the rest of the game and the last 2 drives was 11 for 11 at one point w/o a run game and the game/his season on the line??? a lot of guys/teams could never recover from that kind of start. he does not ever quit, nor does his team. they believe in him and they keep winning. at any rate, he is a lame duck and i for one, will make the best of what we have right now and that is we still have a shot. a win sunday and we are in great shape. i just refuse to give up on this season, this team, this QB, and our chances of a SB this year. why should i, because 15 people on here say the odds are against us? they are against every team, the ones with the most fight are the ones left standing. i like this teams fight. even against indy, they never quit. beat down the darlings in powder blue is all that matters this week.