Denver's Linebackers are poorly used

[Willynowei]

More specifically - underused.

Anyone here watch the Monday night game between Oakland and Seattle? Why the hell don't we use our linebackers like they do? They had them blitzing every down, liningup Julian Peterson all over the freakin place.

Supposedly we have the best linebackers in the league.... now that we get past the "ooooos" and "ahhhhs" and the "Denver's based around that fast group of backers", we finally come to realize this Defense never freakin uses them.

Think about it, 90% of the teams run stopping is from the front four thats coached to eat up the line, then our backers get clean up duty. Then in coverage they drop 20 yard down field untill they are so spread apart teams get first downs on quick dump offs.

Lets use them for once. Lets line this freakin team up with 8 in the box and lets make offenses guess. Lets rotate the line everywhere, lets bring them all up to the line like last year. Lets force the offense to audibly communicate lineup shifts. Lets give these linebackers complicated assignemnts, lets have them fool the quarterback. Lets in short, USE THEM.

But lets not blitz everydown. Coyer can't seem to find a balance. Either the whole world knows you're comming or they know you're not. Who cares if our linebackers lineup 5 yards closer to the line of scrimmage? They aren't fast enough to make up the distance?

If these guys are just for clean up duty and tackle totals to look good on national TV, then lets spend Al Wilson and Ian Gold's salary on a position that freakin matters, like the D-line.

I'm sick of hyped up linebackers that can't do garbage on the football field. I could care less if we shut down tightends that's usually Brandon's assignment anyways.

One things for sure, in this league you design your schemes around what you got, and if denver's linebackers are so great, why not use them?

[-Slap-]

None of our linebackers are worth blitzing if the offense knows they're coming. You might as well send a safety or Darrent off the corner.

I'm on record as saying I would take Seattle's linebackers over anybody else's.

[Kaylore]

Just so you know that there is more to what -Slap- is saying than his usual favortism toward man-beast players, our "speed" backers, while very fast with good closing ability and the talent to play well in pass coverage, have difficutly shedding blocks when they blitz because of their small size. Consider the best blitzing player on our team is John Lynch. We're using our linebackers tailored to their strengths.

I will say that during the last game against the steelers we were able to force some mistakes against Big Ben when we blitzed up the middle, so that's something, but for the most part non of our starters are going to be loading up the sack numbers unless they happen to captialize on a mistake at the line, or we throw so many at them they can't do anything.

[labronx]

I totally agree, that Indi game made me lose allot of respect for Coyer in terms of his scheming. Pretty pathetict, no creativity whatsoever.

This will kill us in the future.

[jmz313]

A well timed and diguised biltz is always benificial. I'm guessing you'd truely like to see us switch to the 3-4.

[broncofan2438]

Actually, im sure we can all agree, that we are tired of seeing this zone defense, why not man to man?

[Smiling Assassin27]

That sounds like a contradiction to me...The way that these LB's became 'the best LB group in the league' was by thriving in the system and manner they are being used. So either we change their roles and risk having them do things that are not in the scheme/make errors because of this OR we let them do what they do--fly to the ball and stifle offensive skill players with their speed.

[sirhcyennek81]

Hearing alot of bitching lately about the Broncos players. Plummer, the bell's, our D-Line...is this team 6-2 or not?, its hard to tell sometimes.

:Broncos:

[sirhcyennek81]

Also, I may be wrong...but we are not Seattle. If you enjoy the seahawk linebackers that much, watch the seahawks.

:Broncos:

[Barry Ramey]

If the Broncos had a DL that could give OL fits, then they would be using their LB's the right way. But they don't generate much pressure at times and since the LB corp has grest speed, it seems would be useful to use them to blitz. But it doesn't have to be as much as Coyer used to or even Robinson. If nothing else, just to give the QB a different look. Manning is not the only QB who if you keep giving the same look, he'll pick you apart. Much of defense is disguise more than anything and try to get offenses off their timing. So changing looks, who comes on a blitz and when, and changing coverages is important.

But yeah, on the flip side, some teams do so much in terms of mixing it up, they confuse themselves and DB's get confused if zone or man and receivers left open for big gains or scores.

Just seems to me there is a way to mix things up enough where you don't confuse yourselves and give offenses some difficulty figuring out what you're going to do from series to series.

[WABronco]

Yea...why can't our LB's do what Julian Peterson does?

Ummmmm, wellll, because they're not Julian Peterson. Not one of our LB's can rush effectively with their hands down...Seattle has two.

You can't deny that Seattle's DL is exponentially more active than Denver's, either.

[Willynowei]

Just so you know that there is more to what -Slap- is saying than his usual favortism toward man-beast players, our "speed" backers, while very fast with good closing ability and the talent to play well in pass coverage, have difficutly shedding blocks when they blitz because of their small size. Consider the best blitzing player on our team is John Lynch. We're using our linebackers tailored to their strengths.

I will say that during the last game against the steelers we were able to force some mistakes against Big Ben when we blitzed up the middle, so that's something, but for the most part non of our starters are going to be loading up the sack numbers unless they happen to captialize on a mistake at the line, or we throw so many at them they can't do anything.

I agree.

I was very careful to say what I'm implying but I'll just blurt it out right now.

We pay our Backers big money, they should be big players. Either play the linebackers up front near the gaps and shifting around before the snap to take advantage of their speed, or stop paying a premium for that position. Why not line them up real close and threaten to blitz? It forces offenses to account for the possibility.

Example:

Blitzing weakside B gap from the 4-3 cover 2 look:

Linebacker is 5 yards off the ball, by the time he reaches the line of scrimmage, the center can pick him up at the gap.

Same blitz with the linebacker lined up on the gap:

Weakside guard must now pick up the linebacker, Center can no longer shift over, forcing the center to step over to block the Defensive tackle lined up on the right shoulder of the offensive guard.

This situation creates an instance where our weakside Defensive tackle, (Myers) gets a one step advantage on the Center. This is not to mention that the linebacker doesn't have to come, and when he does he may catch the Guard by suprise. And in that case, he will come free for an easy sack.

Anyone follow what I'm trying to get at?

In otherwords, this is knock on Coyer for not using a scheme that challenges our linebackers more.

But its more of a knock on our linebackers, No, they are not the best in the league, in fact, they aren't the strongest part of our defense. *GASPS*

Atleast they aren't performing that way, whether thats because the scheme is not giving the responsibilities they should have, or because they flat out aren't that capable, is up for grabs to me. But if they are fast, atleast use that speed by playing up to the line and running around during presnap to threaten to USE your speed.

[Willynowei]

Also, I may be wrong...but we are not Seattle. If you enjoy the seahawk linebackers that much, watch the seahawks.

:Broncos:

what an ignorant post.

Get a clue.

[Willynowei]

Yea...why can't our LB's do what Julian Peterson does?

Ummmmm, wellll, because they're not Julian Peterson. Not one of our LB's can rush effectively with their hands down...Seattle has two.

You can't deny that Seattle's DL is exponentially more active than Denver's, either.

So then the question is, why do they get paid like so much? Remember when we signed Gold with money better suited for another position? DE *cough cough*

[sirhcyennek81]

what an ignorant post.

Get a clue.


Says the man who is complaining because we dont use our linebackers the way seattle does. Logic concludes we can't do what seattle does, because we are not seattle. Also, the seahawks defense is a ray rhodes spinoff. We have been down that road, and it blew.

:Broncos:

[no-pseudo-fan]

I would love to see Gold or Williams Blitz on the inside of Elvis on Passing downs. The RB is so caught up on doubling or at least clipping Elvis, that a LB stunt inside would put instant pressure on the QB leading to sacks and maybe even a quick Turn-over. Just my opinion.;D

[WABronco]

So then the question is, why do they get paid like so much? Remember when we signed Gold with money better suited for another position? DE *cough cough*

Peterson signed a 54 million contract. Gold's contract is less than half of that. DJ's making peanuts. Al Wilson...don't complain about his contract.

22 million gets what...Raheem Brock?

[Willynowei]

Says the man who is complaining because we dont use our linebackers the way seattle does. Logic concludes we can't do what seattle does, because we are not seattle. Also, the seahawks defense is a ray rhodes spinoff. We have been down that road, and it blew.

:Broncos:

LOL, you are hilarious.

Do you sleep? Well since I am not you, logic therefore must conclude I cannot sleep!

But where did I ever say that we must lineup or linebackers as Defensive ends? Asking for them to crowd the line and force offensive line adjustments is just too much I guess.

I'm sorry I ruined your wonderful day by blasting the teams linebackers, maybe you should go hug a puppy, or just not click into the thread next time.

[Willynowei]

Peterson signed a 54 million contract. Gold's contract is less than half of that. DJ's making peanuts. Al Wilson...don't complain about his contract.

22 million gets what...Raheem Brock?

Who said the replacement has to be at linebacker. The point is, between Gold and Wilson, You've got a lot of money. What if we downgraded to cheap linebackers and used the money on top notch D-linemen. Does that net a better defense or a worse off one?

But more importantly.

What if we actually used them for what they are worth? Why would you lineup the fastest backers in the league 6 yards off the ball consistantly if you were going to drop them back anyways? Why not line them up and make them use that speed?

[sirhcyennek81]

LOL, you are hilarious.

Do you sleep? Well since I am not you, logic therefore must conclude I cannot sleep!

But where did I ever say that we must lineup or linebackers as Defensive ends? Asking for them to crowd the line and force offensive line adjustments is just too much I guess.

I'm sorry I ruined your wonderful day by blasting the teams linebackers, maybe you should go hug a puppy, or just not click into the thread next time.

Do we watch the same team? You seem to not even notice that we do blitz our linebackers. We do crowd the line. We do force O-Line changes. If your critcism of Denver's linebackers was valid, maybe your argument would make sense.

:Broncos:

[Willynowei]

Do we watch the same team? You seem to not even notice that we do blitz our linebackers. We do crowd the line. We do force O-Line changes. If your critcism of Denver's linebackers was valid, maybe your argument would make sense.

:Broncos:

The better question is, where were you for the first 7 games of the season?

Out of 60 snaps against Indy our defense blitzed 3 times. We play the most vanilla off-scheme lineup in the NFL.

[sirhcyennek81]

The better question is, where were you for the first 7 games of the season?

Out of 60 snaps against Indy our defense blitzed 3 times. We play the most vanilla off-scheme lineup in the NFL.


First 30 minutes of that game, Indi scored 6 points. Indi adjusted at half time, we didnt. If you have a criticism, its of the Coordinator, not the linebackers. Also, we play alot of zone, because of the speed of our back 7. That "vanilla" defense has also given up the fewest TD's in the NFL.


:Broncos:

[ludo21]

I agree we need to do something different.

But I will say this, our LB's have fake blitzed and dropped into coverage a ton, and they also have sat back, then delayed blitz, problem is, that they arent very good at it. Size is a big factor, Gold usually gets blocked easily by a FB and Al cant seem to get thru half the time.

But if we can find ways to get them clean looks thru the hole to the QB, we gotta do it, their Speed is INSANE!

[sirhcyennek81]

I admit it drives me nuts when I see williams and bailey 8 yards off, but then I realize these are two of the fastest players in the NFL, and have the most insane closing speed. Same for our linebackers. I wish each one of them could get 10 sacks a season, not the case, but a sack is not always a sign that the player is making that big of an impact. Amusing thing, this time last year, people were complaining Denver was blitzing too much.

:Broncos:

[broncosteven]

I think we miss use DJ, Dwill & Lynch more than LB's. They are the 3 that should be our main blitzers. Especially DWill from Corner when he is getting torched in coverage.

Lynch should be in box on Balance of D Plays.

DJ should be man enough to blitz from Strong side on all out power & Delay blitzes.

[Play2win]

Another Personal Agenda Thread. Nothing to see here... move along folks...

[s0phr0syne]

If you have a criticism, its of the Coordinator, not the linebackers.

:Broncos:



First off, realize we're just discussing this stuff because, really, what the hell are we going to talk about in the middle of the week?



Secondly, so far the people are posting aren't complaining about the linebackers, their criticism is in how they're being used, IE the Coordinator's scheme!! Our linebackers aren't just good because they're fast, they all have a lot of talent. DJ and Wilson (he's a bit short, but plenty big) have decent size, so don't use the argument that their size is limiting what we're doing with them. It doesn't make sense to pay top dollar for these linebackers and then utilize their full potential. That's the argument being made by above posts. Either change the scheme to utilize our strenghts better, or change our personel to accommodate our scheme. Something's gotta give.


Coyer's scheme is decent, but that's about it. It has been exposed this year against the Colts, and last year against the Steelers. We don't need a decent scheme, we need a GREAT one, one that utilizes the linebackers. I get the impression that all three of our linebackers have loads of football IQ; I don't think a more complicated scheme is really going to confuse them. Even our secondary seems pretty intelligent, well, except for DWil, but I think even he would get used to a scheme that wasn't so vanilla.


So the question is when do we get a younger, more innovative DCoordinator?

[WABronco]

DJ should be man enough to blitz from Strong side on all out power & Delay blitzes.

DJ is horrible at blitzing...easily the worst of the 3 LB's.

[broncosteven]

DJ is horrible at blitzing...easily the worst of the 3 LB's.

I agree That is why I said he should be man enough to get it done. You cannot have your starting SAM LB subbed to blitz.

[WABronco]

Who said the replacement has to be at linebacker. The point is, between Gold and Wilson, You've got a lot of money. What if we downgraded to cheap linebackers and used the money on top notch D-linemen. Does that net a better defense or a worse off one?

I'm not saying the replacement has to be at LB. You're complaining about our LB's lack of sack production, and you specifically mentioned Julian Peterson as if you wished one of our LB's could be used similarly.

Peterson is an elite individual talent. He has enough size, speed, and power to be used in all facets of the defensive game. He's paid accordingly.

Not one of our current 3 is a similar player (and they're contracts are noticeably smaller), but they are extremely effective in other areas such as coverage and run support. Our scheme is obviously designed around the strengths of our LB's.

You saw what happened last year, right? We rushed 6 or 7 men more than any other team in the league. Our defense wasn't anywhere close to as effective as it is now.

As far as whether or not going with league avergae LB's and better DL would make our defense better, who knows? Not you, not me, not anyone. I do know that league average LB's certainly wouldn't have the capabilities of our current trio. Pair that with the fact that the DL is easily upgradeable, I think our FO's train of thought is just fine.

But more importantly.

What if we actually used them for what they are worth? Why would you lineup the fastest backers in the league 6 yards off the ball consistantly if you were going to drop them back anyways? Why not line them up and make them use that speed?

What exactly are you saying here?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't it make sense to put our LB's in a position to make plays in front of them?

[sirhcyennek81]

First off, realize we're just discussing this stuff because, really, what the hell are we going to talk about in the middle of the week?



Secondly, so far the people are posting aren't complaining about the linebackers, their criticism is in how they're being used, IE the Coordinator's scheme!! Our linebackers aren't just good because they're fast, they all have a lot of talent. DJ and Wilson (he's a bit short, but plenty big) have decent size, so don't use the argument that their size is limiting what we're doing with them. It doesn't make sense to pay top dollar for these linebackers and then utilize their full potential. That's the argument being made by above posts. Either change the scheme to utilize our strenghts better, or change our personel to accommodate our scheme. Something's gotta give.


Coyer's scheme is decent, but that's about it. It has been exposed this year against the Colts, and last year against the Steelers. We don't need a decent scheme, we need a GREAT one, one that utilizes the linebackers. I get the impression that all three of our linebackers have loads of football IQ; I don't think a more complicated scheme is really going to confuse them. Even our secondary seems pretty intelligent, well, except for DWil, but I think even he would get used to a scheme that wasn't so vanilla.


So the question is when do we get a younger, more innovative DCoordinator?


So innovation to you is blitzing the linebackers more? Thats just genius. Why didnt Robinson, Rhodes or Coyer think of that?

:Broncos:

[cmhargrove]

I will have to agree that I don't think our linebackers are great blitzers, however, they are excellent at doing what we have asked of them. I think rebuilding a unit that works so well is pretty dumb. There are many units in the NFL that have atheletes just as good as ours, but because of training and scheme, they just don't do their job as well as ours.

Our team already showed it could adapt. I thought that there were some changes evident from the Indy game to the Steelers game, and I thought they did try to throw in a few wrinkles. I think those new twists will be experimented with over the remainder of the season, and that will make us ready for Indy in the playoffs. I kind of look to the Bengals game to be the last test. If we can shut down Carson Palmer at the end of the season, I think we will have the formula for shutting down Manning. I know that isn't exact science, but they have 2 top notch receivers and a quarterback that can feed them the ball if given time.

I also think our team does much better with safety and corner blitzes. I don't have data to back that up, but it seems we constantly "get to" the QB using those blitzers.

[long beach bronco]

As long as we blitz our linebackers, somebody is going to get the sack, be it linebackers or Dlineman, just send more than the Oline can block and with our Dfensive speed, somebody should get there.

[Willynowei]

....
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't it make sense to put our LB's in a position to make plays in front of them?

Nope, thats Exactly what I'm saying, that it makes no sense to keep everything infront of them. If you lack speed, you try to keep things infront of you. If you have speed, you play up, you play with your back turned, you gamble and expose yourself because you have the ability to recover from mistakes.

Crowding the line of scrimmage doesn't mean we have to blitz every down, but the threat is there, and it forces the offense to adjust the scheme, it gives linemen headaches.

90% of an offensive linemen's reads are made before the snap, you can force a lot of false starts and problems in protection by crowding the line and backing off. IF your linebackers are slow, you can't do this because good offenses can use the alignments against you, but if you are fast enough to drop back in position, then you can.

[Willynowei]

First 30 minutes of that game, Indi scored 6 points. Indi adjusted at half time, we didnt. If you have a criticism, its of the Coordinator, not the linebackers. Also, we play alot of zone, because of the speed of our back 7. That "vanilla" defense has also given up the fewest TD's in the NFL.


:Broncos:

The only adjustment Indy made was to open up their playbook. The execution was flawless because we made it simple for them.

[Malcontent]

Dammuttt.
Why didnt we draft Urlacher, and Petersen, and Ray Ray, and oh... He** you get the picture. We got who we got!! And we are getting dang good results! Yeah it coulda woulda shoulda..But I will stick it out with Al and da boyz! I sound like Mock!

[s0phr0syne]

So innovation to you is blitzing the linebackers more? Thats just genius. Why didnt Robinson, Rhodes or Coyer think of that?







To me, innovation in defense, as it is in anything else, is creating new things. That's probably not a correct term, since almost everything that is going to be tried probably already has been tried as far as defensive schemes go. But what I do mean is to inject some creativity into it. I think, as others have already pointed out, that by disguising the coverage by pre snap movements and shifting that we can help create some dimension of complexity to our defense, thereby hopefully creating some confusion for the QB. Even a little hesitation or uncertainty on the QB's part could lead to that one play that our defense capitalizes on.


But, on the other hand, its not as if our current D is completely broken. I'm not suggesting throwing the baby out with the water, I just think that we have these great defenders, and I'd like to see them running something more complex than a vanilla 4-3.

[azbroncfan]

The deal is that the linebackers are good in stopping the run, good in pass coverage and marginal at blitzing. I can't remember one of them running over a RB and getting a sack, putting a swim move for a sack or something of that nature, instead the RB's seem to pick them up and they either are blocked or try to run around while QB makes the pass. I would like to see if Dumerville has the RB doubling him bring a CB and LB from the other side, or double blitz the center with Wilson and Lynch to collapse the pocket like Philly does well.

[ZONA]

There's definately a reason why we are not that great in open space but turn it up a few notches when the field gets short. The Speed of our defense can get to a certain spot much faster because the amount of space an offense has is limited. We're not as spread out in the red zone because there's less space. I think that definately puts our defense in the catagory of reacting rather then attacking. Pros and Cons to each. Bottom line is though, you have to get pressure no matter who you play. Any QB, given the time and space, can side step, buy time or what have you, and find somebody open after 4 or 5 seconds, or longer. You could put 15 DB's in the backfield and give Manning 6 or 7 seconds and he could find a receiver. You have to put pressure on the QB - PERIOD!

[milehimike]

I totally agree, that Indi game made me lose allot of respect for Coyer in terms of his scheming. Pretty pathetict, no creativity whatsoever.

This will kill us in the future. I was shocked that the D didn't mix it up a bit. Never laid a finger om manning. And when we did beat them we had him on his ass early in the game, then he had happy feet, and we took control. So yes it made me wonder.

[Popps]

One things for sure, in this league you design your schemes around what you got, and if denver's linebackers are so great, why not use them?

The biggest problem is the type of guys we've got. Gold is about the size of your average strong safety... Wilson is active, but smallish in the middle and D.J. is about average size, but I haven't really seen anything to make me think he's the the next Joey Porter.

The thing is, when people talk about our linebackers being so good, I think they just mean so fast. But, that doesn't always translate into being good blitzers. Romanowski wasn't necessarily the fastest, but he was an excellent blitzer. It IS part speed, but it's part instinct, part strength, size, etc.

The point made about 100 times a game by announcers during our games is on point... we're a team you can't run to the outside on. That's a direct result of our team speed, more specifically, the LBs.

But (you knew a but was coming) .... our LBs just aren't particularly disruptive near the LOS, and add to that, our front four does very little in the way of pass-rush or penetration. (You knew that was coming, too.)

But, it's a fact. Those who make a case against (go figure) the d-line being crucial will point to teams like Pittsburgh, who might not necessarily have all-world talent up front. Well, they make up for it with guys like Porter who are absolute monsters. (Plus, their front 3 can play... see AFFCG.)

So, your linebackers aren't much of a disruptive threat and your front four can't beat a blocker one on one. What does that leave you with?

Exactly. Very little pressure on opposing offenses and conversely... a TON of pressure on our secondary. Luckily, we're very talented back there, or we'd be up #### creek.

I'd kill for a guy like Porter, or a hybrid like Willie McGinest. (In his prime)

Nothing against our guys. I like what they bring, but they're small, quick "play-chasers" who need guys kicking ass in front of them, and we don't always have that.

[Popps]

The only adjustment Indy made was to open up their playbook. The execution was flawless because we made it simple for them.

Exactly.

But, we made it easy for Rothlisberger in January, too. The only difference was, he didn't come with the pedigree... so we didn't see any "Rothlisberger is Awesome" threads after he cleaned our clocks.

But, the tide is starting to turn around here. You're starting to see more and more people asking why opposing QBs can sit in the pocket and destroy our talented secondary every time we face a talented offense. The answer has been clear for about 10 years. It's just a matter of when people choose to see it.

[watermock]

Exactly.

But, we made it easy for Rothlisberger in January, too. The only difference was, he didn't come with the pedigree... so we didn't see any "Rothlisberger is Awesome" threads after he cleaned our clocks.

But, the tide is starting to turn around here. You're starting to see more and more people asking why opposing QBs can sit in the pocket and destroy our talented secondary every time we face a talented offense. The answer has been clear for about 10 years. It's just a matter of when people choose to see it.

How can you make a moronic comment every time is a mystery.

The first paragraph is so self contradictory it's absurd. He didn't "Clean our Clocks"...Plummer had mutiple turnovers. Two fumbles and two picks. Big Ben didn't have any, I'm not going to check honestly. The comment is so idiotic it's incredible.

OK...so Jake turns the ball over 4 times, and Ben doesn't once, and it'w what again?

Nest ou claim that QB's are destroying our secondary when Champ made two huge interceptions.

WHAT PART OF WE TURNED THE BALL OVER FOUR TIMES ESCAPES YOU?
If the answer is so clear. chit it out...don't keep us in suspense...

[Popps]

He didn't "Clean our Clocks"...Plummer had

Actually, he did.

They scored on their first 4 straight possessions and racked up a couple hundred yards of offense in the first half, alone.

While Jake Plummer did throw an INT near half-time, he was not playing defense (that I noticed) as Pitt marched up and down the field on us, scoring every time they had the ball in the first half, but once.

But, to the defense's credit.. they didn't give up a playoff record to Ben R., ad they did to Manning the prior year, or was it the year before? Or, was it the weekend before last? Hard to keep track. Our big-game defensive melt-downs are all sort of blending together at this point.

There are many Jake Plummer threads if you don't like him. This one is about our defense. Jake doesn't play defense.

[azbroncfan]

The biggest problem is the type of guys we've got. Gold is about the size of your average strong safety... Wilson is active, but smallish in the middle and D.J. is about average size, but I haven't really seen anything to make me think he's the the next Joey Porter.

The thing is, when people talk about our linebackers being so good, I think they just mean so fast. But, that doesn't always translate into being good blitzers. Romanowski wasn't necessarily the fastest, but he was an excellent blitzer. It IS part speed, but it's part instinct, part strength, size, etc.

The point made about 100 times a game by announcers during our games is on point... we're a team you can't run to the outside on. That's a direct result of our team speed, more specifically, the LBs.

But (you knew a but was coming) .... our LBs just aren't particularly disruptive near the LOS, and add to that, our front four does very little in the way of pass-rush or penetration. (You knew that was coming, too.)

But, it's a fact. Those who make a case against (go figure) the d-line being crucial will point to teams like Pittsburgh, who might not necessarily have all-world talent up front. Well, they make up for it with guys like Porter who are absolute monsters. (Plus, their front 3 can play... see AFFCG.)

So, your linebackers aren't much of a disruptive threat and your front four can't beat a blocker one on one. What does that leave you with?

Exactly. Very little pressure on opposing offenses and conversely... a TON of pressure on our secondary. Luckily, we're very talented back there, or we'd be up #### creek.

I'd kill for a guy like Porter, or a hybrid like Willie McGinest. (In his prime)

Nothing against our guys. I like what they bring, but they're small, quick "play-chasers" who need guys kicking ass in front of them, and we don't always have that.


Exactly, Denver has tried to copy Tampa from a couple years ago but they don't have the DLine to do it.

[azbroncfan]

The thing is, when people talk about our linebackers being so good, I think they just mean so fast. But, that doesn't always translate into being good blitzers. Romanowski wasn't necessarily the fastest, but he was an excellent blitzer. It IS part speed, but it's part instinct, part strength, size, etc.



Romo like him or not was a playmaker and like you said a very good blitzer. That is why I don't buy the DJ is played out of position and SS LB's don't make plays argument.

[Mediator12]

Everything on the defensive side of the ball always starts up front. Den has been hurting as Popps said up front forever. The way this team could be more creative is to switch to the 3-4 as a base scheme and be as flexible as PIT, NE, and SD have become. Unfortunately, we imported used 4-3 personnel from CLE because they were going 3-4.

Coyer has run 5 schemes in four years out of the 4-3 base. That is pretty creative in and of itself, considering that none of the NAME DC's have changed at all in four years. Jimmy Johnson, Monte Kiffin, Greg Williams all are struggling mightily this year with superior talent up front than DEN. Coyer gets the most out of the WHOLE unit not just one player or the LB's.

There is this thing called gamefilm that changes the way that teams attack about three times per season after the weaknesses have been diagnosed and exploited. Every game has a different gameplan, and different adjustments that are not readily seen to the average fan. Things like force's, blitz packages, DL twists, DL fronts, personnel exchanges, and the like. These theoreticals are great diversions for game week, but they always are just that.

The LB's are very good at doing what this scheme is designed for them to do. If you screw with the scheme, you take players outside of their strength's. The lack of a DL that can beat man on man every play makes Blitzing consistantly less effective. The lack of a consistent pass rush means press man coverage is suicidal and counterproductive to a team that is the NFL best in Red Zone TD scoring %.

Do I like any of these things? No, it pisses me off every time I watch the defense take the field. It is not how I learned aggressive Defense scheming that forces the offense to adjust rather than the defense react. However, I do understand why they do what they do and it all starts up front.

This front four is well below average and Warren is not a pass rusher. He is a good active DT, but he is not a collapse the pocket bull rusher like any of the other top DT's. Heck, he rarely sniffs the QB in games for Den. Without a constant double team threat, then there is noone who is going to get a weaker route to the QB. Sure Warren and Dumervil get doubled in max protect scheme's, but it does not make the rest of the team more effective in their roles like it does for other teams.

[-Slap-]

The way this team could be more creative is to switch to the 3-4 as a base scheme and be as flexible as PIT, NE, and SD have become. Unfortunately, we imported used 4-3 personnel from CLE because they were going 3-4.

That's hardly the only reason we're not switching the base defense to a 3-4. The primary reason is because the linebackers are not suited to that scheme. If these guys are too small to be effective at the LOS consistently, we're sure not going to help them out by taking another lineman off the field in front of them.

You know what makes me laugh (out loud, even)? The statement our defense was designed to beat Peyton Manning. Nothing could be further from the truth, and if it was designed to beat him, they made several fatal miscalculations. You're not going to beat Peyton by flooding the field with quick defenders who can stay with his receivers. He has too many options and he's too adept at finding them. Worse, he's extremely adept at isolating your weakest link.

Its foolish to believe you can simply out execute the Colts without roughing them up. They're too precise and let's face it, everything favors the offense these days. We lost that game against Indy as much because of missed tackles as it was lack of pressure. The only 4-3 base defense in the NFL that has shown they can consistently pressure Peyton Manning are the Jaguars. Not an easy scheme to duplicate since it relies on two All Pro caliber DTs to make it work.

The 3-4 discussions went out the door when Gold was brought back. I'm glad because I still believe the 4-3 is a superior base defense and I think its crazy to build your team specifically to defeat any one opponent.

[Cito Pelon]

. . . . . . . . . . . . .You know what makes me laugh (out loud, even)? The statement our defense was designed to beat Peyton Manning. Nothing could be further from the truth, and if it was designed to beat him, they made several fatal miscalculations. You're not going to beat Peyton by flooding the field with quick defenders who can stay with his receivers. He has too many options and he's too adept at finding them. Worse, he's extremely adept at isolating your weakest link.

Its foolish to believe you can simply out execute the Colts without roughing them up. They're too precise and let's face it, everything favors the offense these days. We lost that game against Indy as much because of missed tackles as it was lack of pressure. The only 4-3 base defense in the NFL that has shown they can consistently pressure Peyton Manning are the Jaguars. Not an easy scheme to duplicate since it relies on two All Pro caliber DTs to make it work.

The 3-4 discussions went out the door when Gold was brought back. I'm glad because I still believe the 4-3 is a superior base defense and I think its crazy to build your team specifically to defeat any one opponent.

I've been thinking the same all year. The FO basically just wanted a faster and more skilled D, and I believe they'll be looking for more of the same next year. The FO hurt themselves in the drafts and FA 99-04, they basically got nothing but ST guys and busts. They could have had Rodney Harrison and Simeon Rice dirt cheap. They tried and tried to build the D before the O got old, finally had to upgrade the O with this year's draft and cross their fingers the fast D could do well. And it is a fast D, overall. I'll give credit to the FO for going from a slow, unskilled D to becoming a fast, better-skillled D in really one season with the 2005 draft and cutting Kennedy loose. The LB's get very few interceptions, something I have to attribute to not having a good feel for pass defense. Hell, Wilson's best passes-defensed are when he gets hit in the back of the helmet by the pass. DJ doesn't look comfortable at all in pass D.

Denver will still need to look to improve in all 3 levels of the D next year. This year the D players I guess will just have to do their damndest to stop the most skilled and best coached O's. This is a good D overall, a good team overall, and will probably make the playoffs. They have to play their best games of the season in the playoffs, though, something they have not done for years and years. The team has not had anybody at all stand out in the playoffs for a long time. Ok, Champ Bailey for one play, but Pitt burned him the next game like Mock burns T-bones when he gets drunk and forgets he's BBQing. So I guess I'll see what happens. The team seems confident, and that's a big deal.

[Cito Pelon]

The biggest problem is the type of guys we've got. Gold is about the size of your average strong safety... Wilson is active, but smallish in the middle and D.J. is about average size, but I haven't really seen anything to make me think he's the the next Joey Porter.

The thing is, when people talk about our linebackers being so good, I think they just mean so fast. But, that doesn't always translate into being good blitzers. Romanowski wasn't necessarily the fastest, but he was an excellent blitzer. It IS part speed, but it's part instinct, part strength, size, etc.

The point made about 100 times a game by announcers during our games is on point... we're a team you can't run to the outside on. That's a direct result of our team speed, more specifically, the LBs.

But (you knew a but was coming) .... our LBs just aren't particularly disruptive near the LOS, and add to that, our front four does very little in the way of pass-rush or penetration. (You knew that was coming, too.)

But, it's a fact. Those who make a case against (go figure) the d-line being crucial will point to teams like Pittsburgh, who might not necessarily have all-world talent up front. Well, they make up for it with guys like Porter who are absolute monsters. (Plus, their front 3 can play... see AFFCG.)

So, your linebackers aren't much of a disruptive threat and your front four can't beat a blocker one on one. What does that leave you with?

Exactly. Very little pressure on opposing offenses and conversely... a TON of pressure on our secondary. Luckily, we're very talented back there, or we'd be up #### creek.

I'd kill for a guy like Porter, or a hybrid like Willie McGinest. (In his prime)

Nothing against our guys. I like what they bring, but they're small, quick "play-chasers" who need guys kicking ass in front of them, and we don't always have that.

I pretty much agree. NE held Manning to 27 on their field, even after turning the ball over. They obviusly played better D against manning then Denver did. Sacked him, harassed him. Denver has some holes, but I like how they're getting the W's this year. Denver looks like a better team than last year, and hell, the ST's haven't done anything much yet. Get the ST's contributing and maybe this is a more competitive playoff team. I think they'll make the playoffs, and it's anybody's game then. It looks to me like Denver is one of the top five AFC teams, so it's just a matter of making the playoffs, then going on a roll. Denver's trouble it seems to me for a long time is once they make the playoffs, they don't have players that have their best games of the season, and that's what a team absolutely has to have.

[watermock]

We have had consistently bad drafts till the last two years. We pick up street trash and make it work better than our own picks.

Gold isn't as undersized as he was when he came into the NFL. That's a myth. He's noticably thicker now and has played SAM. Wilson isn't as small as a bit short. D.J. is anything but undersized. The argument isn't sound as much as Slappy wants to continue to hammer Gold.

As far as the DL goes, it's so obvious we need to get pressure on Manning aven an idiot knows it. It's not the LB's fault. Backs are getting thru the interior with Warren out and LB's are having to try to arm tackle or be complete toast. To be able to stuff the run, someone on the DL has to at least get a shoulder on the back.

The idea that our LB's are undersized is laughable. You want undersized, try DWill.

Of course Slappy continued to praise Pierce and just deal with that draft disaster.

The 3/4 has inherent flaws if you know how to exploit them, and I have explained repeatedly how to. Say I'm a fool, but I attack it by chipping with the double TE.

[-Slap-]

We have had consistently bad drafts till the last two years. We pick up street trash and make it work better than our own picks.

Gold isn't as undersized as he was when he came into the NFL. That's a myth. He's noticably thicker now and has played SAM. Wilson isn't as small as a bit short. D.J. is anything but undersized. The argument isn't sound as much as Slappy wants to continue to hammer Gold.

As far as the DL goes, it's so obvious we need to get pressure on Manning aven an idiot knows it. It's not the LB's fault. Backs are getting thru the interior with Warren out and LB's are having to try to arm tackle or be complete toast. To be able to stuff the run, someone on the DL has to at least get a shoulder on the back.

The idea that our LB's are undersized is laughable. You want undersized, try DWill.

Of course Slappy continued to praise Pierce and just deal with that draft disaster.

The 3/4 has inherent flaws if you know how to exploit them, and I have explained repeatedly how to. Say I'm a fool, but I attack it by chipping with the double TE.

Preach on, Mock. The only NFL games you see are the Bronco games you pull in on local TV in your backwater hick town.

Get a ****ing job.

[Kaylore]

The only 4-3 base defense in the NFL that has shown they can consistently pressure Peyton Manning are the Jaguars. Not an easy scheme to duplicate since it relies on two All Pro caliber DTs to make it work.

The 3-4 discussions went out the door when Gold was brought back. I'm glad because I still believe the 4-3 is a superior base defense and I think its crazy to build your team specifically to defeat any one opponent.

I agree. The linebackers are too small, especially on the outside, for a 3-4 and you need big old fat body to clog the middle and we don't have that either.

As for the Jags defense, we are closer than people think. Rashean Mathis is maybe the second best CB in the NFL. Our safeties are good enough and while the Jags linebackers are underrated, ours are superior. The kicker as you pointed out are those two defensive tackles. Even their ends aren't that great. But when you get and inside push and can force runs to the outside, you start dictating to other teams how to play.

The thing about Manning people forget is that he is very immobile and can't throw on the run. If you have a good inside push and can jam to buy time, Manning will get flushed and never find rythm. As he gets shut down Manning becomes frustrated and starts playing erratically.

So really we just need some man-beasts in the middle.

[watermock]

Preach on, Mock. The only NFL games you see are the Bronco games you pull in on local TV in your backwater hick town.

Get a ****ing job.

I've seen every game ass-wipe.

[-Slap-]

I agree. The linebackers are too small, especially on the outside, for a 3-4 and you need big old fat body to clog the middle and we don't have that either.

As for the Jags defense, we are closer than people think. Rashean Mathis is maybe the second best CB in the NFL. Our safeties are good enough and while the Jags linebackers are underrated, ours are superior. The kicker as you pointed out are those two defensive tackles. Even their ends aren't that great. But when you get and inside push and can force runs to the outside, you start dictating to other teams how to play.

The thing about Manning people forget is that he is very immobile and can't throw on the run. If you have a good inside push and can jam to buy time, Manning will get flushed and never find rythm. As he gets shut down Manning becomes frustrated and starts playing erratically.

So really we just need some man-beasts in the middle.

Heyward and Spicer are pretty solid ends. I know Reggie's out for the year now. The bigger loss to that defense was that of MLB Mike Peterson. He thrived behind those monster DTs.

[Rock Chalk]

I **** my cat every night asswipe.

Nasty.

[Rock Chalk]

Heyward and Spicer are pretty solid ends. I know Reggie's out for the year now. The bigger loss to that defense was that of MLB Mike Peterson. He thrived behind those monster DTs.

Peterson is out? For the year? Damn that's gonna hurt. I always thought he was very under valued around the league. Definately a top 10 MLB IMO.

[watermock]

I agree. The linebackers are too small, especially on the outside, for a 3-4 and you need big old fat body to clog the middle and we don't have that either.

The thing about Manning people forget is that he is very immobile and can't throw on the run. If you have a good inside push and can jam to buy time, Manning will get flushed and never find rythm. As he gets shut down Manning becomes frustrated and starts playing erratically.

So really we just need some man-beasts in the middle.

So your saying replace the defense? Well, you might as well replace Coyer as well.

Yeah, let's go 3/4 midseason with two out.

The problem is that the DL can't produce pressure. As much as Slappy loves to insult the fact is the LB's haven't been the problem. There have been missed tackles, but it's the front four and some secondary problems that are the real issue.

Wilson is so undersized he made 9 tackles. STFU. I'm talking to Slappy Kaylore.

He just can't stand me poking his ribs about Pierce, his "optimal sized" LB.

BTW dimwit...I have a job.

[Rock Chalk]

So your saying replace the defense? Well, you might as well replace Coyer as well.

Yeah, let's go 3/4 midseason with two out.

The problem is that the DL can't produce pressure. As much as Slappy loves to insult the fact is the LB's haven't been the problem. There have been missed tackles, but it's the front four and some secondary problems that are the real issue.

Wilson is so undersized he made 9 tackles. STFU. I'm talking to Slappy Kaylore.

You truly are a ****ing idiot. Kaylore was not suggesting replacing the defense moron. He was commenting how we dont have the personell for it and what we would need IF we did it.

Go buy a brain. Assuming you have enough money after picking up your Druthers. Dip****.

[watermock]

I wasn't talking to you dumbass.

[Rock Chalk]

I wasn't talking to you dumbass.

You made a comment on a public message board. You dont have to talk to me.

Besides, I was talking mostly ABOUT you, not really to you since its painfully obvious you have no clue what the **** is going on.

[Kaylore]

Heyward and Spicer are pretty solid ends. I know Reggie's out for the year now. The bigger loss to that defense was that of MLB Mike Peterson. He thrived behind those monster DTs.

Stroud and Henderson are more than teammates. They are very close friends that know each other better than anybody. That chemistry is why they are so impressive (aside from their obvious talent). Its a rare thing to have what they got going down there. Their ends are good, but Spicer has always been a more physical mauler than a speed/sack guy and they've been harassing Manning years before Hayword was signed.

Mike Peterson is underrated (you could make the case the whole Jags team is pretty underrated) but definitely has a lot of help. There aren't many HOF linebackers who didn't have a HOF defensive linemen playing in front of him.

[watermock]

I took exeption the LB's were too small.
Kaylore:
The linebackers are too small, especially on the outside, for a 3-4 and you need big old fat body to clog the middle and we don't have that either.


Yeah, for a 3/4. That isn't Coyer's scheme anyway, and certainly isn't with two out this week.

Yeah, I was owned. The problem has been and will be the DL till it is addressed.

Even is Warren comes back strong, this isn't the LB crew to run a 2/4 with the exception of D.J.

[-Slap-]

So your saying replace the defense? Well, you might as well replace Coyer as well.

Yeah, let's go 3/4 midseason with two out.

The problem is that the DL can't produce pressure. As much as Slappy loves to insult the fact is the LB's haven't been the problem. There have been missed tackles, but it's the front four and some secondary problems that are the real issue.

Wilson is so undersized he made 9 tackles. STFU. I'm talking to Slappy Kaylore.

He just can't stand me poking his ribs about Pierce, his "optimal sized" LB.

BTW dimwit...I have a job.

You're a washed up bum who's being supported by his family, Mock. Everybody knows that **** and you just look more pathetic when you try and deny it.

Nobody is saying switch the defense. We're pointing out the defense couldn't be switched even if we were so inclined. Anybody who watched that Indy game saw more than half a dozen missed tackles by the linebackers. That is, anybody who wasn't completely ****faced.

[Rock Chalk]

I took exeption the LB's were too small.
Kaylore:


Yeah, for a 3/4. That isn't Coyer's scheme anyway, and certainly isn't with two out this week.

Yeah, I was owned. The problem has been and will be the DL till it is addressed.

Even is Warren comes back strong, this isn't the LB crew to run a 2/4 with the exception of D.J.

I feel stupider after having read this post. Jesus Christ mock, you really make Taco look like a Genius sometimes.

[Kaylore]

So your saying replace the defense? Well, you might as well replace Coyer as well.

Yeah, let's go 3/4 midseason with two out.

The problem is that the DL can't produce pressure. As much as Slappy loves to insult the fact is the LB's haven't been the problem. There have been missed tackles, but it's the front four and some secondary problems that are the real issue.

Wilson is so undersized he made 9 tackles. STFU. I'm talking to Slappy Kaylore.

He just can't stand me poking his ribs about Pierce, his "optimal sized" LB.

BTW dimwit...I have a job.

:oyvey: First of all it's "you're" not "your". Also while I'm here it's not "Would of" It's would HAVE.

Second, I made a post about not moving to a 3-4, but you are probably sitting at the computer FUBAR with a bottle of thunderbird wine in your hand having trouble finding the spacebar right now, so I'll just let this go and let Alec finish you off.

[watermock]

You made a comment on a public message board. You dont have to talk to me.

Besides, I was talking mostly ABOUT you, not really to you since its painfully obvious you have no clue what the **** is going on.

I'm well aware of your behavior. I'm not talking to you? You certainly talked to me didn't you ass-face.

What is mostly exactly? What is the other factor? Hmmm?

Seemed like a direct insult to me.

Stick one of your hidden guns up your ass and get it over.

You are a pathetic liar. Your saving up to buy another gun. How cute.

[Rock Chalk]

I'm well aware of your behavior. I'm not talking to you? You certainly talked to me didn't you ass-face.

What is mostly exactly? What is the other factor? Hmmm?

Seemed like a direct insult to me.

Stick one of your hidden guns up your ass and get it over.

I;ll stick one of my guns up someones ass alright, be thankful you live in Iowa you drunken racist redneck worthless waste of oxygen mental midget of a little boy.

[watermock]

I;ll stick one of my guns up someones ass alright, be thankful you live in Iowa you drunken racist redneck worthless waste of oxygen mental midget of a little boy.

I thought you said you gave up your guns LIAR. VOLUNTARILY. I baited you and you acted like the Texas Carp you are. Iowa isn't a racist state at all. Your just an accusationist. And a pathetic one at that. The rest is just accusational rhetoric like a cornered woman.

Once again...you started it...I finshed it. Your left to blanket insults without any truth at all. I just went by your own posts. You have allready been caught in two lies.

Keep going. I just baited you about your weapons. You played your hand twice. Maybe you should give me your zip code so we can get a search warrant.

[Kaylore]

here's a picture of a Texas carp.

http://www.crap.ro/img/article/0/articlethumb/400.jpg

[watermock]

Sorry, but this reminds me of something funny.

Some friends went on a trip to Lake McConnayhe or whatever it is called and brought back a Carpload of Carp...

So we had a Carp Fry...I HATE Carp...

It was a good party but one bite was enough for me.

Carp are easy and fun to catch but worthless for even Beezelbub. Stink Fish...Even Catfish fry up much better.

Best I have ever had was Blackened Snapper in Mazatlan.

Blackened Snapper is GOOD.

[Cito Pelon]

here's a picture of a Texas carp.

http://www.crap.ro/img/article/0/articlethumb/400.jpg

The peckerwood went bowling on the boat ramp and the carp swallowed his ball, apparently.

[Mediator12]

That's hardly the only reason we're not switching the base defense to a 3-4. The primary reason is because the linebackers are not suited to that scheme. If these guys are too small to be effective at the LOS consistently, we're sure not going to help them out by taking another lineman off the field in front of them.

You know what makes me laugh (out loud, even)? The statement our defense was designed to beat Peyton Manning. Nothing could be further from the truth, and if it was designed to beat him, they made several fatal miscalculations. You're not going to beat Peyton by flooding the field with quick defenders who can stay with his receivers. He has too many options and he's too adept at finding them. Worse, he's extremely adept at isolating your weakest link.

Its foolish to believe you can simply out execute the Colts without roughing them up. They're too precise and let's face it, everything favors the offense these days. We lost that game against Indy as much because of missed tackles as it was lack of pressure. The only 4-3 base defense in the NFL that has shown they can consistently pressure Peyton Manning are the Jaguars. Not an easy scheme to duplicate since it relies on two All Pro caliber DTs to make it work.

The 3-4 discussions went out the door when Gold was brought back. I'm glad because I still believe the 4-3 is a superior base defense and I think its crazy to build your team specifically to defeat any one opponent.

I agree the LB's are not the 3-4 type, but it all starts up front with a 3-4 too. You need a Casey Hampton, Jamal Williams, Maake Kemoteau, Vince Woolfork anchor type of NT and Gerard Warren was dumped from CLE because there is no way he could fill that role. The DE's they could have faked with myers and Brown if he were healthy.

The problem, as I am seeing it, is that people want change just to change and have no clue as to WHY they play the way they do. Everything they do is support that DL that does not make plays. Thank God Dumervil and Lang have actually shown up occasionally against poor teams and made a play from time to time. Otherwise, they would be totally screwed instead of just covering for that lack of production up front.

They have never had a solid DL in Shanahan's tenure. They have been good enough at times, but never really above average. I just do not have a clue why he thinks the DL is so irrelavent. Maybe it's becuase he can take scrubs and make them OL ??? Well, it just does not happen that way on the other side of the ball and he should know that. For whatever reason, they keep casting for castoffs on the DL. Until they can pressure fairly consistently as a base four, this defense will be smoke and mirrors to protect them. If they can ever be aggressive up front, then the back seven will be able to be aggressive with them. So, do not expect too much change until the DL starts earning their chump change.

[rbackfactory80]

If we play the Colts again we might as well drop 11 into coverage on passing situations

[Play2win]

I agree the LB's are not the 3-4 type, but it all starts up front with a 3-4 too. You need a Casey Hampton, Jamal Williams, Maake Kemoteau, Vince Woolfork anchor type of NT and Gerard Warren was dumped from CLE because there is no way he could fill that role. The DE's they could have faked with myers and Brown if he were healthy.

The problem, as I am seeing it, is that people want change just to change and have no clue as to WHY they play the way they do. Everything they do is support that DL that does not make plays. Thank God Dumervil and Lang have actually shown up occasionally against poor teams and made a play from time to time. Otherwise, they would be totally screwed instead of just covering for that lack of production up front.

They have never had a solid DL in Shanahan's tenure. They have been good enough at times, but never really above average. I just do not have a clue why he thinks the DL is so irrelavent. Maybe it's becuase he can take scrubs and make them OL ??? Well, it just does not happen that way on the other side of the ball and he should know that. For whatever reason, they keep casting for castoffs on the DL. Until they can pressure fairly consistently as a base four, this defense will be smoke and mirrors to protect them. If they can ever be aggressive up front, then the back seven will be able to be aggressive with them. So, do not expect too much change until the DL starts earning their chump change.

Maybe part of it has been our draft position because of the success of our team over the years. We have never been in a position to really grab some top-notch talent. especially at DT. I think a stud DT next to Warren would really change the whole dynamics of the entire defense. Here's hoping...