Good Article: Answers for a weak pass rush

[Kaylore]

Pretty good read, I think you'll all enjoy it. :)
http://www.orangemane.com/article_257.php

Socal Bronco: Suggestions for Improving the Pass Rush
By SoCalBronco
Nov 2, 2006, 01:21

After being humiliated yet again by Peyton Manning and the explosive Colts offense, the Broncos must face the uncomfortable question that has haunted them since the start of the decade: What to do about the pathetic pass rush?

The last two seasons have offered stark contrasts in Larry Coyer’s approach to the problem. Last season, the Broncos were blitz-heavy, and featured a particularly unique package of bringing 11 men up to the line of scrimmage bringing heavy pressure at times with 7 or 8 man blitzes from that look, or zone blitzes with three deep coverage behind it. The strategy was not bad in theory or in practice, as the Broncos often disrupted opposing offenses and achieved a solid degree of pressure even though this pressure did not result in a great deal of sacks.

The same approach has also been successful in the past. The University of Alabama Crimson Tide used the exact same strategy from the exact same 11 man on the LOS alignment to win the national championship in the Sugar Bowl on New Year’s Day, 1993. But that approach is no panacea, as it is still a double edged sword: it offers the promise of high reward, but also entails a high degree of risk, which partially explained why Coyer had to protect his corners by playing them off.

This year, the Broncos have taken fewer chances and have been generally more basic in their approach, placing the pass rushing burden largely on the defensive line. To put it bluntly though, Denver’s personnel simply can’t cut it against the elite or even above average offensive lines in this league, as we saw last Sunday.

Therefore, the Broncos need to be more creative in their approach. Against Indianapolis (and generally speaking, throughout the season) Denver has employed basic line play, usually eschewing stunts, loops and defensive line games. These strategies are useful to getting better pass rushing matchups and should be employed more frequently.

Rookie defensive lineman Elvis Dumervil of Louisville has shown an outstanding first step and possesses natural leverage, which are among the reasons why the coaches also used him at defensive tackle in camp and in the preseason, as he could often get to the interior gap off the snap quicker than the guards, who are generally better run blockers than pass protectors. The use of stunts will allow players with decent pass rushing skill like Dumervil and Kenard Lang to work against guards and will give them a greater chance of success. Defensive Tackle Gerard Warren was also effective as a pass rusher when used on stunts during training camp.

Instead of asking their defensive linemen to simply “beat the other man”, the Broncos should also use overload concepts that are helpful in giving the Broncos a numbers advantage. For example, on defensive line “loops” and “games”, one member of the defensive line moves laterally to the other side of the line, so that 3 members of the defensive line are rushing the passer from one side against only half of the offensive line.

This approach is risky to be sure, as it often can hurt a defense when the offense runs to the opposite side, but should nonetheless be a viable option on sure-fire passing downs. Another overload concept that Denver should employ more frequently is one that they have often used the last two seasons, but not much this season: bringing a safety and linebacker from the same side (often John Lynch was pegged for this role, in tandem with Ian Gold or D.J. Williams). This approach has created pressure for Denver in the past, as the blitzside guard and tackle had to deal with defensive linemen, while the back to that side could only block one of the two blitzers.

The Broncos can also improve their success at pass rushing through other types of blitzes, albeit not in the same high risk fashion as in the past. Denver can start by incorporating more corner blitzes into their common staple of defensive plays. Cornerback Darrent Williams showed that he was especially gifted on these plays (especially coming from the over the slot receiver) last year, as did Champ Bailey. Especially when employed from the sideline closest to the ball, these blitzes are generally effective as corners are usually unblocked and come as a surprise to the passer whose protections often call for him to throw to his hot route only when the unaccounted for linebacker blitzes.

The other specific kind of blitzes that Denver could employ are delay blitzes. For all of their speed and ability to pursue, the Broncos special trio of linebackers have not been effective at defeating pass blockers and getting to the quarterback. Delay blitzes can help by giving running backs with linebacker blitz responsibility the false impression that the linebackers are playing man to man instead of blitzing.

In today’s NFL, many pass protection schemes are based on running backs “check releasing”, which calls for them to release into their route only after checking whether the linebacker assigned to them blitzes. By delaying at the snap and mirroring the running back’s initial movement for a single count, the backers are more likely to deceive the backs into releasing after their check, when the linebackers can then shoot through the gap right to the quarterback.

[Kaylore]

I'd like to see them move the line around less. All the stunts seem to just wear out the linemen faster and by the fourth quarter they look sloppy, have no burst and give up faster.

I'd also like us to put some big power guys on the ends to really beat up the tackles and collapse the pocket...but then I'd like a lot of things.

[labronx]

The Delayed Blitz would have really helped out in the first half of the Indi game when Peyton was working a toss type of offense with allot of throws that where tossed or lofted.
The routes ran by the TE and WRs where not sharp quick routes, but more like finding soft spots or holes in our defensive backfield.

Those type of routes take time to develop, If you are not getting immediate pressure on Manning, then you try to dissrupt the last second timing on those routes by blitzing late that way it's harder to pick up the blitz due to the surprise factor as oppossed to blitzing upfront and having the RB or OL pick up the blitz because they know its comming.

Since this is not a strong type throw and requires touch any kind of disruption can cause a ball to be underthrown, or have Manning move in the pocket, possibly steping into a sack, or for the ball to sail or hang too long causing an interception.

That is why Bellicheck is brilliant against Manning, he disrupts subtle things, small things that go unnoticed but cause huge discomfort for QBs in the pocket.


This is the one area where Coyer really dissapointed me and always will. Its like he just goes with the obvious and doesnt know how to take it to a level of the nuances of a QBs game.

Manning then came back in the second half and started hitting us with the timing patterns, because he was no longer uncomfortable as he was in the first half.

Those are the ones that killed Roc Alexander and Darrent Williams.

At this point Coyer and the rest of the D were caught on their heels, this is what they expected early on, they caught them slacking off a bit and went to work.

Manning is a master at taking what the Defense gives him.

[Northman]

I think if the corners just get physical from the get go and set the tone of the game it would benefit us much better. I guarantee that NE will be playing physical on defense. We just never set the tone from the CB position against the Colts and it hurt us playing 10 yds off the ball.

[Malcontent]

Eschewed???:thumbsup:

[Garcia Bronco]

I think if the corners just get physical from the get go and set the tone of the game it would benefit us much better. I guarantee that NE will be playing physical on defense. We just never set the tone from the CB position against the Colts and it hurt us playing 10 yds off the ball.

Exactly

[eddie mac]

Question is are our corners built for that type of gameplan??? IMO our corners are really fast but lack somewhat in the physical dept. I haven't seen Darrent or Foxworth jack too many receivers up at the line of scrimmage (I suppose that's pretty difficult when they're playing 10 yards off every down). Paymah is supposed to have the build for that type of physical game but hasn't produced the goods so far.

[broncosteven]

I think running well timed inside stunts would help with Elvis & Warren when he is back & healthy.

I sure wish Coyer would have blitzed DWill from corner last sunday since he was getting abused in coverage. I think DWill excels at Corner Blitzes as he can tackle well & has excellent speed. Bringing Manning down would have been bigger on a couple of drives than him out in coverage looking for a big pick & getting burned. Plus a big time sack would help his confidence.

I also noticed that Lynch was not on the line of scrimage at all this year & was going to start a poll to see if he was being miss used in coverage & find out how many maner's would like to see him back at line but I got busy at work this week & Socal beat me to it. The man knows his stuff! I would like to see Lynch or at least another Saftey on the line at presnap.

[Popps]

Great article, Socal. Seriously good suggestions for a serious problem.

[watermock]

I know where he lives. There IS a FINAL solution, the Model 12. J/K

[Natedogg]

nice article. i like the idea of more saftey/lb blitzes.

[watermock]

I would of loved to see DWill corner blitz as well, but guess what folks, you have to show press coverage for that to work.

Chicken wings would just see it coming and give Wayne a hot read and watch him run past Lynch like a cruise missle vs. a hang glider.

Hindsight is easy, but I would hate to be the analyist that said Ryan Leaf was the correct first choice. There were warning signs.

Anyway, I have solutions, but they are all illegal or even culpable of capital punishment. We have tried blitzing, and he hot reads. We play zone, he finds holes. Man up, his reciever blow by us.

I would never tell a player to take out his knees, at least in an open meeting J/K. This has to be a secret assasination with no co-conspirators other than Coyer and the Hit man. I'm kidding of course...but damn.

The only weakness he has is his mobility. I don't think we even got near him all game. Not even a paw print yet alone a Bronco Hoof on his mellon.

Remember when Coyer went Nazi and blited 8 against Philly last year? I don't know if you can rattle Manning like Mr. Vomit under pressure. I say again, I would of gone postal and put our CB's on an island and brought the house.

It was like...wait, wait, wait for Waynes double move...Whamo.

Get some damn pressure, THEN jump the route for a pick 6. I will give up a couple long TD's if we could get a few sacks and just one pick 6. You get a couple sacks, you can lay back a bit on 3rd and long.

What is that thing they use on Iraqi terroists, the water board? The second half I felt like I was in Guantanamo Bay totally helpless under the thumb of the Great Pumpkin Satan. Heh.

I don't believe Warren would of made a huge difference. Manning was ripping us thru the air and Warren is a run stuffer. I doubt we would of given up 90+ to Addai with a healthy Warren, but that isn't what killed us.

I hate Manning, but there is no real reason to actually. Feels odd to me on the other side of the street after going thru the Elway years. Now I know how Bernie Kosar and Byner still feel. Damn Elway beat us, we were the better team...

WELL, I'M MAD AS HELL AND NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE...I WANT EVERY BRONCO FAN TO GO ONTO THEIR ROOFTOPS, STOP TRAFFIC AND STAND ON THEIR HOOD AND SCREAM IT BY THE TOP OF THEIR LUNGS.

KILL THE MELLONHEAD LIKE GUNNY KILLS WATERMELLONS ON MAIL CALL!

(If you don't watch the history channel, Gunny is no Bunny. He's an ex-vet drill Sargent that has a rather odd sense of humor...funny show. He kills mellons now. Then he walks up and takes a chunk out of the enemy and says, "tastes great". He did once at least. It was symbolic, but you can figure it out.

I guess my final point is you fight fire with fire. You can't stop it by peeing down your leg or running from it...you have to attack it.

I'm not sure that would of won the game, but it would of been more entertaining, and either give up the big play or get a turnover. If anything, it would of gotten Manning off the field one way or another.

Understand that thinking? We could of given up just as many TD's with half the snaps on D. Or we might of gotten a few sacks and maybe a pick 6.

Manning is a fine QB behind line designed and built to protect his Highness. It's like the Atlantic Wall or Iron Curtain...you have to demolish it.

Wow...I should be a columnist, that's a great analogy. I should write stuff for Woody when he comes back to us. Again, welcome back Woody.

BTW, Woody stole one of my comments here several years ago, almost verbatum. He knows it, I know it.

He's crazy like a fox too....people...if you don't think that people all the way to Bowlen don't occasionally check in here for a pulse check, your crazy.

We are like hardened criminals, street wise compared to the weenies in the Official Site. Nothing wrong with it...keeps the neophytes out till they get here. I apologize for even posting our site there, but Taco wanted it to grow...it brought some very childish people in. I choose to be childish on purpose so dont even start.

Anyway, I think you throw the house at Manning and make him short read and jump his routes. Coyer never even made him go chicken wings.

His line pass blocks like they are protecting the Queen Bee.

[Rascal]

LOL!!! Great Pumpkin Satan!!!

That was hillarious Mock.

[-Slap-]

We should have given John Abraham $60 million and used the Jay Cutler pick to acquire him. That was the popular plan around here this summer.

Unfortunately, affordable DEs like Alfred Williams (1996) and Neil Smith (1997) rarely fall right into your lap.

The whole League wants pass rushers, so they come at a ridiculous premium on draft day, or in free agency. We got lucky because Williams was a career underachiever with a big mouth and the Chiefs figured Neil Smith was washed up. In truth, that really was the case. They were both essentially through two years later. Both guys were savvy enough to realize this was their one shot at being on a winner and they played hard for us.

Few people realize Williams barely played for the team in 1998 when we repeated. In fact, his one huge year for us was in 1996.

In 1998, undrafted free agent Maa Tanuvasa led the Broncos with 8.5 sacks. So much for the idiotic assertion that we need to spend a fortune on the defensive line to be successful.

The fact of the matter is, unless you're drafting in the top ten (and we never do) you have to get kind of lucky to find quality pass rushers. Even drafting in the top five is no guarantee, though: Steve Emtman, Sean Gilbert, John Copeland, Dan Wilkerson, Cedric Jones, Darrell Russell, Andre Wadsworth, Courtney Brown. All busts who were drafted in the top five picks on draft day in the last 15 years.

We got lucky as hell to land Trevor Pryce with the 28th pick in 1998. You can all thank Mel Kiper for telling everybody he was a lazy pig before the draft or we never would have got anywhere near him.

[epa86b@netzero]

We should have given John Abraham $60 million and used the Jay Cutler pick to acquire him. That was the popular plan around here this summer.

Unfortunately, affordable DEs like Alfred Williams (1996) and Neil Smith (1997) rarely fall right into your lap.

The whole League wants pass rushers, so they come at a ridiculous premium on draft day, or in free agency. We got lucky because Williams was a career underachiever with a big mouth and the Chiefs figured Neil Smith was washed up. In truth, that really was the case. They were both essentially through two years later. Both guys were savvy enough to realize this was their one shot at being on a winner and they played hard for us.

Few people realize Williams barely played for the team in 1998 when we repeated. In fact, his one huge year for us was in 1996.

In 1998, undrafted free agent Maa Tanuvasa led the Broncos with 8.5 sacks. So much for the idiotic assertion that we need to spend a fortune on the defensive line to be successful.

The fact of the matter is, unless you're drafting in the top ten (and we never do) you have to get kind of lucky to find quality pass rushers. Even drafting in the top five is no guarantee, though: Steve Emtman, Sean Gilbert, John Copeland, Dan Wilkerson, Cedric Jones, Darrell Russell, Andre Wadsworth, Courtney Brown. All busts who were drafted in the top five picks on draft day in the last 15 years.

We got lucky as hell to land Trevor Pryce with the 28th pick in 1998. You can all thank Mel Kiper for telling everybody he was a lazy pig before the draft or we never would have got anywhere near him.

Drafting Cutler was the best pick if it works out. A good QB has a bigger impact on a game than the great pass rusher. Abraham is good but he is always hurt.

I think, Shanny is trying to get back to the his championship blueprint, which is a ball carry offense with big play potential with a decent to good defensive.

[-Slap-]

Drafting Cutler was the best pick if it works out. A good QB has a bigger impact on a game than the great pass rusher. Abraham is good but he is always hurt.

I think, Shanny is trying to get back to the his championship blueprint, which is a ball carry offense with big play potential with a decent to good defensive.

I guess I wasn't sarcastic enough. John Abraham's contract is the biggest joke since Deion Sanders straight up stole over $10 million from Daniel Snyder. (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1355/is_3_98/ai_63165577)

[epa86b@netzero]

I guess I wasn't sarcastic enough. John Abraham's contract is the biggest joke since Deion Sanders straight up stole over $10 million from Daniel Snyder. (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1355/is_3_98/ai_63165577)

No. I got the sarcasticism. I just wanted to second the emotion.

[Rohirrim]

Another Mock classic. :rofl:

The Broncos traded up to get Cutler. They have to trade up to get a top quality DE.

[NFLBRONCO]

I think its funny we all want a pass rush and our top two choices for top pick in 06 draft

Cutler
Maroney

Draft day is never what you expect


So expecting DL high I'm not expecting it

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

I want to see a great DL in Denver, but Slap is right. You either overpay for a FA at the expense of other positions or you get damn lucky in the draft. I think we are seeing an evolution in the team. On defense, stop the run and hope to slow down the opponents passing game. On offense, if Cutler lives up to expectations, it will be pass to set up the run rather than run to set up the pass. That's why I think this off season will be another of trying to build a super offense with the draft heavily slanted in that direction.

[-Slap-]

I want to see a great DL in Denver, but Slap is right. You either overpay for a FA at the expense of other positions or you get damn lucky in the draft. I think we are seeing an evolution in the team. On defense, stop the run and hope to slow down the opponents passing game. On offense, if Cutler lives up to expectations, it will be pass to set up the run rather than run to set up the pass. That's why I think this off season will be another of trying to build a super offense with the draft heavily slanted in that direction.

The fact that we're a successful team works against us on draft day, too. You see neophyte fans pissing and moaning because we don't have a defensive line like the Bears. Of course, going into this season, the Bears have had exactly two winning seasons in the last ten years. They tend to leave that part out.

[elsid13]

The fact that we're a successful team works against us on draft day, too. You see neophyte fans pissing and moaning because we don't have a defensive line like the Bears. Of course, going into this season, the Bears have had exactly two winning seasons in the last ten years. They tend to leave that part out.

Excellent point. But expect for Harris I believe most of the Bear line is 3rd round or later guys. Some of it is luck, and some is finding guys that just are football players. There is talent in draft we just need find it in the later rounds. Elvis is an example of that

Updated
Alex Brown 4th rounder
Ian Scott 4th rounder
Adewale Ogunleye UDFA /trade for

[-Slap-]

I agree. I just laugh when they're being touted as this model franchise because they've managed to assemble a strong defensive line.

How many times has the best defensive line in the NFL won the Super Bowl recently?

You have to go back to Tampa Bay in 2002 for the last time it happened. Let's go ahead and credit Baltimore as the best D line in 2000, as well, even though they probably weren't. Reggie White and Co with Green Bay in 1996.

So, that means the best defensive line took home Lombardi three times in the last ten years. Not every year, like the extreme view around here suggests.

I guess Aaron Smith (4th round), Casey Hampton (19th pick) and Kimo von Oelhoffen (6th round), who comprised Pittsburgh's defensive line in last year's Super Bowl was a collection of high profile talent. Their two combined Pro Bowl appearances in 27 NFL seasons is a dead give away.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I guess Aaron Smith (4th round), Casey Hampton (19th pick) and Kimo von Oelhoffen (6th round), who comprised Pittsburgh's defensive line in last year's Super Bowl was a collection of high profile talent. Their two combined Pro Bowl appearances in 27 NFL seasons is a dead give away.

Every team has a method, and a successful coach is able to either draft for a system, or assemble BPA's and adapt his system to his players. The Steelers were able to control both lines of scrimmage when we played them. Their best accomplishment was completely shutting our run game down and simultaneously executing flawlessly against our pass defense.

Shanahan is a system guy on both offense and defense. The 96-98 Broncos were an example of this system with the right players. It took a HOF QB, a HOF RB, a HOF TE, a HOF WR, a great OL (IMO the strength of the team), and a defense that could make a few stops/get some turnovers to take this team to the SB and beyond.

Looking at the players in place in the system today, it is a wonder that Denver has been successful. I think that the main reason that we were as great as we remember is because of the OL. They executed the run game brilliantly and put the other team in difficult position where they had to play outside of their strengths.

[Popps]

The Broncos traded up to get Cutler. They have to trade up to get a top quality DE.

Bingo.

It's been ten years of Leon Letts, Kavika Pittmans and middle to late round garbage.

Dominant front sevens win championships, and that usually starts with guys that can push the pocket and rush off the edge, up front.

In our last two major losses, both were marked by defensive linemen making huge plays on a pass rush. Pitt changed the game in their favor by stripping the ball, as did Indy. That's what dominant defenses do. They make game-changing plays and disrupt offenses right up front, all day long.
As you saw on Sunday, our defense was nowhere near disrupting anything. Had Indy receivers not brick-handed a few balls, Manning literally could have gone 40 for 40. Just utterly embarrassing.

People can whine all they want about how hard it is to find good D-line talent, but the bottom line is... we haven't tried, unless you call collecting Browns rejects trying. At least we got lucky with one of those.

The last three great defensive linemen we had in Denver were:

1. 1st round draft pick: (Pryce)
2. Big-ticket free agent: (Smith)
3. Big-ticket free agent: (Williams)

Williams contract wasn't huge, but pretty big for the time, and Elway actually re-structured just so we could bring in Smith. (John was obviously smart enough to know that you weren't going to win a championship giving up 35 points in playoff games.)
Since then, we've tried to poo-poo the line, and when we DID find a gem like Berry, etc... we sent them packing as soon as they wanted a little money.

Who played in the SB last season?

Pittsburgh and Seattle.

Seattle ranked 1st in pass-rushing and Pitt ranked 3rd.


Now, if we were blessed enough to have some dominant hybrid types, or Joey Porter type LBs who could take over games on their own, that would be one thing.

But, we don't. So, we can sit here for another decade talking about how hard it is to build a decent d-ilne, or we can go out and get serious about it.

[Kaylore]

How many times has the best defensive line in the NFL won the Super Bowl recently?

I bet it's way more often than the number of times one of the bottom ten defensive lines took a trophy home.

[-Slap-]

I bet it's way more often than the number of times one of the bottom ten defensive lines took a trophy home.

Only a brainwashed fool would think our defensive line is one of the ten worst in football. We're middle of the pack at worst. That's the comment I expect from one of those football fans who watch the Bronco game every week and that's it.

The biggest contract the Broncos ever gave a free agent defensive lineman was Daryl Gardener. That doesn't count as trying to spend money on the defensive line to some people because it didn't pan out. Actually Gardener's contract was second to Trevor Pryce's, but that doesn't count, either, apparently.

Guess what? Most big dollar defensive line signings don't pan out. There is risk involved. Adults who follow the sport understand that, children run around crying when things don't work out.

We got Williams and Smith for well below market value based on their circumstances and that's about the only way to bring in a free agent defensive lineman without spending a fortune.

Another thing people don't understand is we're never going to get a big linebacker who we can point at the quarterback down after down. None of the guys we have now are capable and we've sold our soul to the "small but speedy" linebacker concept. Everybody seems to love that format until these guys show how useless they are rushing the quarterback.

Unless we change coordinators and replace most of the personnel to accomodate a 3-4 base, you guys can forget about tweeners. Its not going to happen. Sticking one of them at DE in a 4-3 base is like giving the OT the afternoon off on passing downs and its Christmas morning for him on running downs.

[Kaylore]

I never said that free agency was the answer, Slap. I'm on record as never advocating throwing a ton of money at free agents, especially defensive ends. I would have liked to see Andre Carter here, but not for what Danny boy paid for him, and even then I thinkhe only did it so he wouldn't "lose".

I think against the rush we have a pretty good defensive line, but when you're talking about rushing the passer, I would definitely put us toward the bottom of the list. You look at other teams and who they play and they usually at least have enough penetration on the outside to hit the quarterback in a seven step drop. Our guys give up on the play too often and the pressure we've generated has come against some of the crappiest offensive lines in football with the exception of the Rams game. Maybe it's scheme, but our D-line doesn't scare anybody when the QB drops back to pass and until we have someone who can bull rush one of the edges we're going to get exposed against better lines.

[Northman]

Andre Carter hasnt done anything in Washington. You should hear the sports guys here laughing their asses off about Danny paying him that much to be a statue in Wash. lol

[Kaylore]

Andre Carter hasnt done anything in Washington. You should hear the sports guys here laughing their asses off about Danny paying him that much to be a statue in Wash. lol

It's not his fault Snyder got trigger happy because he hates the thought of being outbid by someone. It helps his hubris and fans love it because they think money = play level. He's would have been a better fit on a team where he could play as part of a rotation...who could that have been? ;D

[-Slap-]

I like Andre Carter for a lot of reasons, but the bottom line is he's only had one really strong season in a career that began in 2001.

Dominant defensive lineman are so coveted, even the top free agent choices generally are flawed in some way. When a team thinks they have a true stud, they usually do everything in their power to lock him up permenently.

Look at a guy like Jevon Kearse. Normally frugal Philadelphia gave him a big contract in 2004 to fill the void left by Hugh Douglas. He gave them two very average seasons (7.5 sacks each year) and this year he took a season ending injury.

The aformentioned Douglas is an instructive case. Very undersized, with a history of disappearing in the playoffs, and over 30 years old. Many people here wanted to sign him in 2003 coming off a 13 sack season. Jacksonville took the plunge and angry fans and a disappointed coaching staff ran him out of town after one four sack season. Now he's a League joke as TO's sparring partner.

Had we signed him, he would have failed just as miserably and management would again be castigated about not doing anything to help the defensive line. Its such a joke.

[anon]

What about the ones we let go, like Berry and Hayward?

Point is, we've had opportunities to upgrade the D-Line at a not-so-terrible price (still overpaying but that tends to happen on the D-Line) and we didn't do it. You don't think that either Berry or Hayward or both would have outproduced Pryce in his last few, very expensive, years?

I just think that we have spent a lot of money on the secondary and linebackers (well worth it) but we're definitely not getting maximum benefit because our pass rush is below average. It's just a waste of fast linebackers and good corners to let a good QB stand back there... We're wasting the best years of some of our best defensive players.

[Kaylore]

Dominant defensive lineman are so coveted, even the top free agent choices generally are flawed in some way. When a team thinks they have a true stud, they usually do everything in their power to lock him up permenently.
And that's really what it amounts to. Everytime I've seen a big name defensive end on the market it's usually because the team letting him go had a really good reason for doing it. Even teams that are rebuiding won't let the good ones go.

Not that they're all bad. There are definitely free agent defensive ends that are good that will produce for your team, but you have to overpay and generally you'll only get two or three years of good production out of them.

[Popps]

Andre Carter hasnt done anything in Washington. You should hear the sports guys here laughing their asses off about Danny paying him that much to be a statue in Wash. lol

That's fine. But, we've made a few mistakes, if you recall. (Dale Carter, Ihop, and countless first round busts)

Bottom line is, you still have to go out and try to improve yourself, and sometimes that means taking chances. Again, you can't lock yourself inside your house because you're afraid of the outside world, and then point at other people who make mistakes. There have also been a lot of signings like Neil Smith and Reggie White. Guys who were known commodities, and took their show on the road to another team.

The bottom line is, how long does the team want to sit back, afraid to do anything. You don't get far in life with that approach. Shanahan used the OPPOSITE approach to bring in the best CB in the game, one of the best WRs in the game and a blue chip QB.

So, the logic of just mailing it in on the DL because you MIGHT not hit it out of the park is so ass-backwards it's hardly worth addressing. This team has tried the bargain bin, 'fraidy-cat approach. We need to get serious and put some resources into the line.

[Kaylore]

What about the ones we let go, like Berry and Hayward?

Point is, we've had opportunities to upgrade the D-Line at a not-so-terrible price (still overpaying but that tends to happen on the D-Line) and we didn't do it. You don't think that either Berry or Hayward or both would have outproduced Pryce in his last few, very expensive, years?

They both haven't played anywhere near their level and both are injured right now doing nothing. It's not their fault they're injured, I know, but the point is that now both are going to come back from injury a year older without producing and effectively damaged goods.

Hayward had 8 sacks with Jags last year and none before his injury.

Bertrand Berry had ten the last two years before getting injured. He's going to be 33 next year, by the way.

There's no way those guys were worth what they wanted.

[Clockwork Orange]

The fact that we're a successful team works against us on draft day, too. You see neophyte fans pissing and moaning because we don't have a defensive line like the Bears. Of course, going into this season, the Bears have had exactly two winning seasons in the last ten years. They tend to leave that part out.

As much as we have people here who bemoan the fact that the Broncos don't generally get a shot at the upper tier prospects on draft day, a lot of the same people would be calling for everyone to be fired/released if the Broncos had the kind of season it takes to have picks high enough to land those prospects.

[anon]

And if Shanahan is indeed trying to get back to his Super Bowl blueprint, then the offense needs to be much more dominant.

If I remember correctly, we were like Manning's Colts - unstoppable on offense. And that dominance even allowed us to hide the deficiencies of Greg Robinson.

[-Slap-]

And if Shanahan is indeed trying to get back to his Super Bowl blueprint, then the offense needs to be much more dominant.

If I remember correctly, we were like Manning's Colts - unstoppable on offense. And that dominance even allowed us to hide the deficiencies of Greg Robinson.

The offense will return to that status by 2008.

[TheDave]

Just my opinion guys but our defense is more than adequate to reach our goals... I'm not nearly as confident in our offense

[Clockwork Orange]

Just my opinion guys but our defense is more than adequate to reach our goals... I'm not nearly as confident in our offense

Mike Shanahan agrees with you. That's why day one of the draft was dedicated solely to the offense.

[-Slap-]

They both haven't played anywhere near their level and both are injured right now doing nothing. It's not their fault they're injured, I know, but the point is that now both are going to come back from injury a year older without producing and effectively damaged goods.

Hayward had 8 sacks with Jags last year and none before his injury.

Bertrand Berry had ten the last two years before getting injured. He's going to be 33 next year, by the way.

There's no way those guys were worth what they wanted.

Bertie totally flipped out the other day, too.

Veteran end Berry rips teammates for poor attitude (http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/sports/31413.php)

DOUG HALLER
The Arizona Republic

TEMPE - Bertrand Berry's frustration has been obvious this week, but he's kept it mostly to himself. That changed Thursday night.
On the weekly radio show "Big Red Rage" on Phoenix's KMVP-AM, the Cardinals veteran defensive end questioned some of his teammates' maturity and wondered whether the team had the right attitude to stage a reversal.

"This is not Friday night football in high school where you're just playing for your little girlfriend in the stands," Berry said. "You're actually getting paid to do this, so it's your responsibility to go out there each and every day and do the job that you're paid very well to do. When you don't do it, you should not have your job anymore. It's that simple."

Berry said he doesn't blame coach Dennis Green for the team's troubles. He blames his teammates. He questioned their preparation and dedication.

"The attitude is not good right now," he said. "When you are more worried about where you're going for the (off) week as opposed to why you're 1-7, I'm not sure what your motivation is."

Chemistry is another problem, he said "There are a lot guys in the locker room that just don't like each other," Berry said. "And I'll be honest, I feel that way about certain people. There are certain people that I don't really care to be around. At the end of the day I don't want to hang out with these people. I just don't because I don't like them. I don't like their attitude. I don't like their approach to the game and I don't like their actions on the field."

Berry said he planned to talk with Green about a players-only meeting Monday to "clear the air because if we don't do it, we're going to be 2-14."

He talked a gang of **** walking out the door in Denver, too.

Not sure if Green will grant another player's only meeting. They had to break up multiple fistfights the last time Arizona held one of those.

[Bronx33]

Just my opinion guys but our defense is more than adequate to reach our goals... I'm not nearly as confident in our offense


I agree, most teams don't have a QB and a receiving corps like the colts do to exploit it like it was as far as iam concerned the O has yet to establish any consistancy other than the running game.

[TheDave]

I agree, most teams don't have a QB and a receiving corps like the colts do to exploit it like it was as far as iam concerned the O has yet to establish any consistancy other than the running game.

No one in the NFL has what the colts have... Yes i wish that our defense could of mounted more of a pass rush. On the other hand, if Mike Bell had played the entire game the outcome would of been different

[Bronx33]

No one in the NFL has what the colts have... Yes i wish that our defense could of mounted more of a pass rush. On the other hand, if Mike Bell had played the entire game the outcome would of been different



A pass rush alone would have won that game IMO.

[Popps]

No one in the NFL has what the colts have... Yes i wish that our defense could of mounted more of a pass rush. On the other hand, if Mike Bell had played the entire game the outcome would of been different

Could be. He really ran well in that game, given against a pretty bad run D.

I really like Tater, but Mike seems to have a little more pop.

Still, if not for drops... Manning goes 40 for 40. I mean, that's just beyond a problem.

[Bronx33]

Could be. He really ran well in that game, given against a pretty bad run D.

I really like Tater, but Mike seems to have a little more pop.

Still, if not for drops... Manning goes 40 for 40. I mean, that's just beyond a problem.

Mike was punishing boys just ask Harper..

[TheDave]

Could be. He really ran well in that game, given against a pretty bad run D.

I really like Tater, but Mike seems to have a little more pop.

Still, if not for drops... Manning goes 40 for 40. I mean, that's just beyond a problem.

I agree with you popps, but when the best in the game has a career day there isn't much you can do. Manning simply has our number and frankly i'm tired of trying to beat him with our defense. It's time to abuse the hell out of their 30th ranked defense and simply outscore them

[watermock]

Pure Genius...Abuse the hell out of him..

Now how much more specific can you get?

We DID run all over them for 227 your moron.

[TheDave]

Pure Genius...Abuse the hell out of him..

Now how much more specific can you get?

We DID run all over them for 227 your moron.

and it would of been 327 is Tater isn't injured or Mike Bell plays the first half... Try to work through your alcoholic fog and rember we only lost by 3

[watermock]

STFU

Your a complete utter moron...Oh...it would of been 327 rushing rushgint MORON...

We have "If ands and butts' now.

Maybe we should listen to the other talking idiot that says we should of thrown more.

You moron's don't know shiat.

Your the moron.

[watermock]

This is literally comical.

[watermock]

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/image.php?u=2341&dateline=1130361819

This is my hero.

[TheDave]

STFU

Your a complete utter moron...Oh...it would of been 327 rushing rushgint MORON...

We have "If ands and butts' now.

Maybe we should listen to the other talking idiot that says we should of thrown more.

You moron's don't know shiat.

Your the moron.

Time to sleep it off mock... :griese:

[Kaylore]

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/image.php?u=2341&dateline=1130361819

This is my hero.

Wasn't he arrested for a DUI in this picture? How ironic...

[Bronx33]

Wasn't he arrested for a DUI in this picture? How ironic...


If it was for driving a tractor in the fast lane at 7:00 am then yes super ironic...

[epicSocialism4tw]

If it was for driving a tractor in the fast lane at 7:00 am then yes super ironic...

Wow. Bronx, that is seriously the funniest jab I have seen on this site. That image is seared into my head and is now forever associated with Mock. Nice.

[yavoon]

so the great suggestion is to do what we did last year? wow.

[NFLBRONCO]

There was some questioning around the league about the Broncos not playing more physically against Indianapolis receivers Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne last weekend. Denver's cornerbacks were playing 5 to 7 yards back from Harrison and Wayne. The two wideouts aren't overly big and physical. Teams often have challenged them more than Denver did. ...

With no pass rush how does playing 5 yds off wr's do anything? Why don't we challenge wr's more?

[Popps]

There was some questioning around the league about the Broncos not playing more physically against Indianapolis receivers Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne last weekend. Denver's cornerbacks were playing 5 to 7 yards back from Harrison and Wayne. The two wideouts aren't overly big and physical. Teams often have challenged them more than Denver did. ...

With no pass rush how does playing 5 yds off wr's do anything? Why don't we challenge wr's more?

That's a question a lot of people are asking. At what point do you at least move your corners up and try to disrupt routes to some extent. Our CBs are supposed to be a major strong point, and I believe they are. But, we've got them lined up 7 yards off their guy, peddling backwards almost before the ball is snapped. Add to that... a comfy, cozy pocket for Manning without a blue jersey in sight, and it seems like a recipe for trouble. Not surprisingly, it was.

[-Slap-]

There was some questioning around the league about the Broncos not playing more physically against Indianapolis receivers Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne last weekend. Denver's cornerbacks were playing 5 to 7 yards back from Harrison and Wayne. The two wideouts aren't overly big and physical. Teams often have challenged them more than Denver did. ...

With no pass rush how does playing 5 yds off wr's do anything? Why don't we challenge wr's more?

Because our scheme is based on not giving up big plays and we probably felt the risk of missing a jam and letting one of these guys get loose deep wasn't worth it.

The whole idea all year has been to make teams execute all the way downfield and we weren't going to change stream when its been successful. Its tough enough to play the Colts without giving up quick scores. The bottom line is their offense didn't make many mistakes while our defense did, in the form of missed tackles and blown coverages. We also had a turnover on offense. Had we executed better, we probably squeak out the win.

[Pendejo]

That's a question a lot of people are asking. At what point do you at least move your corners up and try to disrupt routes to some extent. Our CBs are supposed to be a major strong point, and I believe they are. But, we've got them lined up 7 yards off their guy, peddling backwards almost before the ball is snapped. Add to that... a comfy, cozy pocket for Manning without a blue jersey in sight, and it seems like a recipe for trouble. Not surprisingly, it was.

I cannot provide a link, but I remember reading that a big reason they don't do a lot of bump 'n' run is simply because their corners aren't comfortable with it. If it's a technique that they're not comfortable with then it's good that they don't do it. The pass rush is inconsistent, and the safeties aren't exactly speedsters. If they don't get a good jam...the play's going to be huge...especially with a QB like Manning who doesn't miss unless he's consistently put on his ass.

[watermock]

That's true Slappy, but might not be the way to attack Indy.

I say balls out.

[watermock]

Originally Posted by Popps
That's a question a lot of people are asking. At what point do you at least move your corners up and try to disrupt routes to some extent. Our CBs are supposed to be a major strong point, and I believe they are. But, we've got them lined up 7 yards off their guy, peddling backwards almost before the ball is snapped. Add to that... a comfy, cozy pocket for Manning without a blue jersey in sight, and it seems like a recipe for trouble. Not surprisingly, it was.

If the stupid refs would of called the infractions, they wouldn't have to be nit pickers....New England would bump a full t0 Yards off the LOS.

Basically, you can't tough a WR now.

I screamed there was illegal contact...now they ticky tack like traffic cops.

It's all Fucced up.

[watermock]

The Rules Didn't Need To Be Changed, The Refs Were Incompetent And Let New England Hammer Recivers Ten Yards From Scrimmage...

[watermock]

That's a question a lot of people are asking. At what point do you at least move your corners up and try to disrupt routes to some extent. Our CBs are supposed to be a major strong point, and I believe they are. But, we've got them lined up 7 yards off their guy, peddling backwards almost before the ball is snapped. Add to that... a comfy, cozy pocket for Manning without a blue jersey in sight, and it seems like a recipe for trouble. Not surprisingly, it was.

You don't have a clue. The problem was pass rish.

[watermock]

Bump an run coverage was basically outlawed. Your probabably such a diaper boy you don't even remember when recievers had to fight a defender till it was in the air.

Now you can't touch him after 5 yards.

Thanks to horrible officiating, we now have the illegal contact rule stricley enforced.

It's getting to the point I coult draw a flag.

[watermock]

I'm tired and have taken mymedicne, but the fact is that the NFL has tried everything in it's power to destoy the game.

The handcuffs on the Defense have become absurd.

[Popps]

You don't have a clue. The problem was pass rish.

Yea, the pass rish could have been better.

[watermock]

You want insults?

Lazy spelling at 4 A.M. wouldn't even begin.

The mark of an idiot is to nit pick and run to his horsefeed and simplly comfort himself. It's also a mark of stupidity.

People can't tell you your retarded...We don't have the heart to do that.

Your almost bright enough to take exception. Good for you. Take a spelling error and run with it big boy...

I didn't know I was typing a thesis.

Your a dimwitted moron that has no clue about literally anything. It's almost astounding. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut. You haven't made an intelligent post yet...but want to correct me because I had lazy spelling.

You didn't understand what I said?

HMM?

You couldn't extropolate it? Or were you more obsessed with insults?

Your an idiot. I don't give a crap if I miss a spelling...you are obsessed with protecting untenable points of view.

You want vocabulary punk?

I can guarantee you it's ten times more accurate if I give a rats ass.

So you just tell me all about it punk...

You have an issue, and it isn't about spelling...it's all about your intenable stupidity about Plummer.

It's funny. Your a moron and an idiot punk. Just wait, I haven't even started at this point. I misspelled a word...you just opened the door.

It's in the early morning. Nit picking bastard.

You can't argue the substance at all, so you try to dismiss the entire comment with a simple spelling error.

Classic deflection.

[watermock]

I have some real biters that I can't say.

[BroncoBuff]

The Broncos traded up to get Cutler. They have to trade up to get a top quality DE.

I dunno .... Darryl Tapp looks pretty good to me.

[BroncoBuff]

That's a question a lot of people are asking. At what point do you at least move your corners up and try to disrupt routes to some extent. Our CBs are supposed to be a major strong point, and I believe they are. But, we've got them lined up 7 yards off their guy, peddling backwards almost before the ball is snapped. Add to that... a comfy, cozy pocket for Manning without a blue jersey in sight, and it seems like a recipe for trouble. Not surprisingly, it was.

I was one of those "lots of people" - here's why: Manning is a TIMING passer. The timing of the routes he and his receivers work on is legendary now - he does the full "tree" of routes with Marvin before every game. You have to disrupt Peyton's timing to stop him - and without a pass rush or a blitz - bumping tjose guys on the line is the way to go.

And you are so right that CBs are a strength - plus, if we're rushing just four, the safeties should be able to help out.