Rewind 14 years.....

[Master___Pain]

If only the internet was popular back then......

Our QB sucks dammit!! As a ten year vet he should be better than this. I say start the rookie. Did you see him in preseason? the guy is a flatout stud. Coach is limiting the playbook and has the QB on a tight leash. Start the Rookie NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 10 TDs vs 17INTs?!?! WTF? Bench him!!!

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

It probably would have been worse since Broncs gave up a number one, an all pro tackle and a BU QB.

[Clockwork Orange]

It would have been the mother of all draft day meltdowns on this board when Reeves selected Tommy Maddox. We're talking nuclear winter.

[Master___Pain]

It probably would have been worse since Broncs gave up a number one, an all pro tackle and a BU QB.

I agree.

[Master___Pain]

It would have been the mother of all draft day meltdowns on this board when Reeves selected Tommy Maddox. We're talking nuclear winter.

This is also true.

[Kaylore]

If only the internet was popular back then......

Our QB sucks dammit!! As a ten year vet he should be better than this. I say start the rookie. Did you see him in preseason? the guy is a flatout stud. Coach is limiting the playbook and has the QB on a tight leash. Start the Rookie NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 10 TDs vs 17INTs?!?! WTF? Bench him!!!

Elway was hurt that year and played through it. Jake doesn't have the injury as an excuse, but nice try. Also Elway had already been to three Super Bowls and had shown the ability to win games under three different coaching staffs. If you want to make the case for Jake, comparing him to football hall of famers is a really stupid way to do it.

[Master___Pain]

Elway was hurt that year and played through it. Jake doesn't have the injury as an excuse, but nice try. Also Elway had already been to three Super Bowls and had shown the ability to win games under three different coaching staffs. If you want to make the case for Jake, comparing him to football hall of famers is a really stupid way to do it.

Kaylore, you missed the point. If the internet was widely used back then and everyone had an opinion that they thought mattered, Elway would have been skewered. I'm not making a case for Jake, just stating that the internet has given a voice to many a lot of people, and the voices are certainly louder with the advent of the internet. People forget how Elway used to get trashed in this area in the early 90s. Granted that was not the overwhelming sentiment, but Elway took a ton of criticism in the early 90s.

[Kaylore]

Kaylore, you missed the point. If the internet was widely used back then and everyone had an opinion that they thought mattered, Elway would have been skewered. I'm not making a case for Jake, just stating that the internet has given a voice to many a lot of people, and the voices are certainly louder with the advent of the internet. People forget how Elway used to get trashed in this area in the early 90s. Granted that was not the overwhelming sentiment, but Elway took a ton of criticism in the early 90s.

I guess I figured you used this circumstance to compare to the current one with Jake. Are you just saying that the internet lets people complain? They did that enough on the talk radio stations and letters to the sports column every week, so I don't think it's all that different.

Jake this year and Elway then aren't comparable circumstances. The one comparison I would make is Elway in 92 is like McNabb last year and Elway in 93 is like McNabb this year.

[Jason in LA]

Who ever would have wanted the rookie to start would have been ran out of here, especially since Elway went for over 4000 yards, 27 TDs, with only 10 ints the next year. We've all been wrong about different players, but who would want Tommy Maddox to be held over their head?

[Jason in LA]

I think Elway would have been given a pass for that year. He had earned a pass on a bad year. Plummer hasn't earned that.

Back then it never crossed my mind to pull Elway. I wonder if anybody here would admit to wanting Maddox over Elway.

[Bronco Billy]

I think Elway would have been given a pass for that year. He had earned a pass on a bad year. Plummer hasn't earned that.

Back then it never crossed my mind to pull Elway. I wonder if anybody here would admit to wanting Maddox over Elway.

Not here. I understood the thinking behind taking Maddux (at the time), but I never wanted him to play until Elway decided to retire.

[Master___Pain]

I guess I figured you used this circumstance to compare to the current one with Jake. Are you just saying that the internet lets people complain? They did that enough on the talk radio stations and letters to the sports column every week, so I don't think it's all that different.

Not all that different? The internet has changed so much that surrounds the world of sports. I don't even get a newspaper anymore. Talk radio let a few people voice their opinions, the internet has led to anyone with with a keyboard being able to voice the opinion. Look how fast rumors get going on the internet. The transfer of (mis)information is great these days. The internet has allowed instant reactions, without actually having to think through what has been said.

Jake this year and Elway then aren't comparable circumstances. The one comparison I would make is Elway in 93 is like McNabb last year and Elway in 94 is like McNabb this year.

And McNabb got absolutely ROASTED in Philly last year prior to shutting it down. There was a huge split among the TO's fault crowd and McNabb's fault crowd.

My basic point in starting this thread, is that I don't think the even "god like" John Elway would have been safe from people on the internet. Many people thought Elway was a bum who'd never win the big game and that Maddox should start (shudder).

[Meck77]

Kaylore, you missed the point. If the internet was widely used back then and everyone had an opinion that they thought mattered,.

And of the million or more posts here not a single one does to Jake, Jay, Shanny, or Pat.....

[Popps]

Are you just saying that the internet lets people complain?

All opinion, of course... but I think the internet actually fosters a lot of this stuff. Attention spans are minute compared to what they used to be. I can guarantee you that, having been a hardcore fan before and after the dawn of the net.

I love it, for the most part. The information is obviously light-years better than it used to be. But, the downside of the net and expanded media is the complete void of patience you see now days.

I've said it before... Cutler won't last 8 games if he started out how Elway did, much less a few seasons. I believe it took John three years to have a season where he threw more TDs than INTs. Can you even imagine the rioting in the streets we'd see if Cutler started out like that? Plummer has a 2:1 TD/INT ratio and an off the charts win percentage, and people want to hang that guy from a lamp post on main street.

It doesn't mean people didn't complain back then, it's just easier to do. I mean, you've got people who live out their lives on the internet as professional complainers, sad as that is. We've got plenty on this site, alone. Attention spans have shortened and knowledge of the game has narrowed as the fan base has grown.

It's just a progression, like it or not.

[Kaylore]

Plummer has a 2:1 TD/INT ratio and an off the charts win percentage
What are you talking about? he has 3 Td's and five interceptions. If you mean lifetime, he is split even and just barely became a winning quarterback last game.

[Popps]

What are you talking about? he has 3 Td's and five interceptions. If you mean lifetime, he is split even and just barely became a winning quarterback last game.

As a Bronco, dude.

I could give a **** what he did before he got here. It wouldn't even pertain to the conversation, anyway.

But, you know that.

[Kaylore]

As a Bronco, dude.

I could give a **** what he did before he got here. It wouldn't even pertain to the conversation, anyway.

But, you know that.

So it's about his history, but not his recent history, but not his way back history? Shanahan had a pretty good win percentage before Plummer. Plummer had a terrible one without Shanahan. I suspect when Plummer is gone, Shanahan will still have a good win percentage and Plummer won't carry that win record to his next team.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

So Kaylore, this thread was started as a discussion about how the internet has changed communication about sports and you hijack it and make it another Jake/Jay thread???

[Atlas]

Can you imagine what it would have been like around here when rumor was Elway for Rypien.

[DivineLegion]

If Plummer were Elway he would still be in Arizona and winning games on mostly his skill alone...much like Elway had to do for years in Denver. With the team we have built this season and the team we had last season Denver would be favorites to repeat in the Superbowl if Elway was the QB.

[ScottXray]

I think Elway would have been given a pass for that year. He had earned a pass on a bad year. Plummer hasn't earned that.

Back then it never crossed my mind to pull Elway. I wonder if anybody here would admit to wanting Maddox over Elway.

I never wanted Maddox over Elway, but there were times when I thought Kubiak should have been playing some second halves instead of John. I never understood why Reeves left John in for entire games sometimes, because Kubiak was a damn good quarterback in his own right. Of course Reeves was such a master of making half time adjustments that he never needed to change QB's (sarcasm here). Instead of running left then center, he would run right, then left. Third down,see if Elway could get another set.

It was a shame Kubiak never got too many chances to show his talent though. If free agency had been happening then he never would have stayed with the Broncos.

Maddox was a whole different story!. He was like some pet that follows you home...followed Reeves all over the place after he left.:strong:

[Kaylore]

So Kaylore, this thread was started as a discussion about how the internet has changed communication about sports and you hijack it and make it another Jake/Jay thread???

Actually Popps did that.

[Popps]

So it's about his history, but not his recent history, but not his way back history? .

Kaylore, I'll say it again...

It's about him as a Bronco, period. I don't care what he did in Arizona or in Pop Warner. When he's no longer a Bronco, I will no longer care about his record, either.

That's really simple stuff.

Shanahan had a pretty good win percentage before Plummer.

Umm... he did great with Elway, ****ty with Griese and great with Plummer.

There's your factual reality. Feel free to twist it up however you'd like.

SI suspect when Plummer is gone, Shanahan will still have a good win percentage .

Yea, maybe so. He might also wallow in mediocrity as he did when Griese was at the helm. Depends if Cutler can perform as well as Elway and Plummer in their respective roles in the offense. My guess is that he will.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

So it's about his history, but not his recent history, but not his way back history?

No, just whatever stat they deem makes Jake look good at that moment. Unlike last year and this past offseason, QB rating is no longer a good judge of Jake's true abilities.

[Kaylore]

I just realized that I had my dates wrong. 93 was Elway's best statistcal. It was during 92 he that he was hurt.

[gunns]

I never wanted Maddox over Elway, but there were times when I thought Kubiak should have been playing some second halves instead of John. I never understood why Reeves left John in for entire games sometimes, because Kubiak was a damn good quarterback in his own right. Of course Reeves was such a master of making half time adjustments that he never needed to change QB's (sarcasm here). Instead of running left then center, he would run right, then left. Third down,see if Elway could get another set.

It was a shame Kubiak never got too many chances to show his talent though. If free agency had been happening then he never would have stayed with the Broncos.

Maddox was a whole different story!. He was like some pet that follows you home...followed Reeves all over the place after he left.:strong:

Never wanted Maddox over Elway. NEVER, not once in the years he was in Denver. Damn I about died that draft day from hyperventilation. First of all because it was such a stupid pick in the first round and second because it was just plain a stupid pick. Yes I would have been on this board in a nuclear melt down. One of the happiest days for me was the day he left.

I don't know, I was never one who called for Elway's head. So I would have been one on here defending him at all times. It's not that I didn't see the mistakes Elway made, on his own, at times. It's just that I saw how he carried this team most of the time. I was one of the few, I guess, that cringed whenever Kubiak came in. He may have been an adequate backup but I never felt he could do for Denver what Elway did. I would have been the Orange 4 Life when it came to Elway.

[listopencil]

"Sometimes a lineman will make a mistake, sometimes a wide receiver will make a mistake, a quarterback will make a mistake," Shanahan said. "But as a group, to make an offense work, it's the whole group. And all the pressure will go to the quarterback because most people don't understand who broke down.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Actually Popps did that.

Actually you had three posts in that vein before Popps first post

[Bronco Bob]

So Kaylore, this thread was started as a discussion about how the internet has changed communication about sports and you hijack it and make it another Jake/Jay thread???

This is something unusual? Just about every thread on this board eventually
gets hijacked into a "Jake sux, start Cutler" thread.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

This is something unusual? Just about every thread on this board eventually
gets hijacked into a "Jake sux, start Cutler" thread.

Yep - It's getting old. Maybe this board should be merged with fireshanahan.com

[maven]

If only the internet was popular back then......

Our QB sucks dammit!! As a ten year vet he should be better than this. I say start the rookie. Did you see him in preseason? the guy is a flatout stud. Coach is limiting the playbook and has the QB on a tight leash. Start the Rookie NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 10 TDs vs 17INTs?!?! WTF? Bench him!!!

Not sure what you're trying to imply with starting a thread like this... Anyway, that was the Carl Pickens draft... It was so obvious to anyone and everyone that Denver needed a WR. So what does Denver do in the draft? Well golly gee, draft a QB. That was the end of Dan Reeves. And thankfully so. Monday morning QB'ing it all worked out beautifully. John eventually led the Broncos to two superbowl victories.

The idea of the thread, though you didn't present it in words, you're a ****ing idiot. Jake Plummer was no John no matter how you try to correlate the situation. To think Jake had accomplished anything similar to John has no clue of football. I think you're an idiot of all idiots for starting this thread.

AND yes, I'll pour myself another drink.

[Taco John]

Who ever would have wanted the rookie to start would have been ran out of here, especially since Elway went for over 4000 yards, 27 TDs, with only 10 ints the next year. We've all been wrong about different players, but who would want Tommy Maddox to be held over their head?



I would have liked to hold Tommy Maddox over my head... to throw him in the dumpster!

[broncocalijohn]

It would have been the mother of all draft day meltdowns on this board when Reeves selected Tommy Maddox. We're talking nuclear winter.

And you thought Jake's thread was bad
when we picked up cutler. This would have been nuts

[24champ]

This is something unusual? Just about every thread on this board eventually
gets hijacked into a "Jake sux, start Cutler" thread.

It's a ****in civil war...

[maven]

It's a ****in civil war...

Yes it is. And this thread comparing John Elway/Jake Plummer vs Tommy Maddox/Jay Cutler is a ****ing joke.

[Popps]

This is something unusual? Just about every thread on this board eventually
gets hijacked into a "Jake sux, start Cutler" thread.

Which is funny, because then the guy who hi-jacked it... the 2nd most Jake-obsessed poster on this forum tries to pawn of his pooping on this thread on me.

I guess I did respond, so I'm partially to blame. Silly of me, as it's not like those types are really interested in discourse.

[Kaylore]

Yes it is. And this thread comparing John Elway/Jake Plummer vs Tommy Maddox/Jay Cutler is a ****ing joke.

How dare you hijack this thread!

[24champ]

Yes it is. And this thread comparing John Elway/Jake Plummer vs Tommy Maddox/Jay Cutler is a ****ing joke.

The fact we are 4-1 and complaining like a bunch of goddamn babies is a ****in joke.

[Popps]

The fact we are 4-1 and complaining like a bunch of goddamn babies is a ****in joke.

It's pretty comical. God knows what the Chicken Little Society would do if we actually had a LOSING record.... or even a .500 record.

We win a game that was never even close, and you've got 400 threads bashing the offense. I create one thread for those who might actually have enjoyed beating the rai_ers (even if not in the sexiest fashion) ... and the thread is overrun by people who feel it necessary to ensure that other people are as miserable as they are.

I mean, do you realize we haven't been in danger of losing a game since week 1?

It's one thing to enjoy a win and at the same time, talk about improving going forward... which a few have done. But, the majority of the "mad when we win" crowd is ONLY in hate-mode, 24/7. They need their point to be right on an internet message board so badly, they can't even enjoy a win anymore.

Whatever works for people.

[Master___Pain]

Not sure what you're trying to imply with starting a thread like this... Anyway, that was the Carl Pickens draft... It was so obvious to anyone and everyone that Denver needed a WR. So what does Denver do in the draft? Well golly gee, draft a QB. That was the end of Dan Reeves. And thankfully so. Monday morning QB'ing it all worked out beautifully. John eventually led the Broncos to two superbowl victories.

The idea of the thread, though you didn't present it in words, you're a ****ing idiot. Jake Plummer was no John no matter how you try to correlate the situation. To think Jake had accomplished anything similar to John has no clue of football. I think you're an idiot of all idiots for starting this thread.

AND yes, I'll pour myself another drink.

A ****ing idiot? What did I ever do to you? Good thing people don't over react on the internet.... ::)

[bronco militia]

1992 was not a good year to bash Elway...he was hurt. Besides, all the heat was on Reeves.

you need to go back to 1990 right after the superbowl 24. Bronco Nation was the laughing stock of the sporting world.

[Vegas_Bronco]

Look at the freedom Elway had (both with his physical ability and Reeves at the helm) - Reeves let Elway do whatever the hell he wanted. Now, in comparison, you consider Jake - not only limited physically but more so by Shanny the control-freak wanting to 'play not to lose'. At the end of the day, I'm really excited to have a successful quarterback and team - the Broncos have been on an unreal run since Elway retired and that in itself is worth every dumb trade, stupid first round pick, etc - I applaud the decisions made by this club and I've never seen a club take a bunch of parts and make up one of the high caliber teams on a consistent basis - I don't care who's at QB - he's just another dog in the pound if the rest of the team sux. I do enjoy a civil war and it's coward-hero making ability, so please, continue with the banter.

[broncocalijohn]

Look at the freedom Elway had (both with his physical ability and Reeves at the helm) - Reeves let Elway do whatever the hell he wanted. Now, in comparison, you consider Jake - not only limited physically but more so by Shanny the control-freak wanting to 'play not to lose'. At the end of the day, I'm really excited to have a successful quarterback and team - the Broncos have been on an unreal run since Elway retired and that in itself is worth every dumb trade, stupid first round pick, etc - I applaud the decisions made by this club and I've never seen a club take a bunch of parts and make up one of the high caliber teams on a consistent basis - I don't care who's at QB - he's just another dog in the pound if the rest of the team sux. I do enjoy a civil war and it's coward-hero making ability, so please, continue with the banter.


Dude, i hilighted the part that makes me LOL !!! I dont know how long you have been a broncos fan but Reeves was the ball and chain to elway's abililty to do what he did best. When reeves left, Wade Phillips finally let elway the freedom and look at his numbers after reeves left. Sorry, but you are a moron! This is one of the stupidest lines ever written (besides Mock's post). You deserve a neg rep- sorry.

[Vegas_Bronco]

Dude, i hilighted the part that makes me LOL !!! I dont know how long you have been a broncos fan but Reeves was the ball and chain to elway's abililty to do what he did best. When reeves left, Wade Phillips finally let elway the freedom and look at his numbers after reeves left. Sorry, but you are a moron! This is one of the stupidest lines ever written (besides Mock's post). You deserve a neg rep- sorry.

Boy you had quite a run there....sorry, but you're contributor to the OM, it should mean more to you than just a power struggle! It sounds like you have an overly masterful fetish for finding what your torpid soggy shiat sandwich determines as 'stupid'. Dude, you can neg rep me all you want - it seems it's your only way of justifying the excuses for the rest of whatever you wanna call that. I know life is hard when your dumb but you can start by putting your skirt back down it stinks. In fact, JUST TURN IT ALL OFF. Neg repping is just not a skill you possess, nor is posting.

Your point and reasoning is as sloppy as you're unmanaged business. True humor is you trying to express thought.

How many times did Elway throw the long ball when the short routes were open? How many times did he burn through all 3 downs just to get a first down on 4th (see The Drive, The Drive II)? How many times did Elway magically run for a first down? How many miracle plays did that guy have? How many times did you see him arguing with Reeves on the sidelines to run the play Elway thought was best? How many times did Elway improvise with Reeves playbook???? Think about it, or better yet, just take a sloppy guess. Yeah, I'd call that a ball and chain, albatross, burdened, more trouble than its worth - Elway did what he wanted to do on the field = 'freedom' because he had the legs and the arm and versatile skills to perform miracles - He said 'to hell with the gameplan let's just win this' and that is what we all loved him for - he took over a game. Reeves could put together whatever the hell he wanted as a gameplan, but Elway was the one who consistently overcame the odds - you can't gameplan, coach, or manage that.

Dude I don't care how long you've been a Broncos fan - just go away you masterful simped oaf - better yet, keep posting, it's good practice and eventually it might dole out.

[24champ]

\

Dude I don't care how long you've been a Broncos fan - just go away you masterful simped oaf - better yet, keep posting, it's good practice and eventually it might dole out.

Hmmm...

Elway QB rating in the Reeve era-

1983 54.9
1984 76.8
1985 70.2
1986 79.0
1987 83.4
1988 71.4
1989 73.7
1990 78.5
1991 75.4
1992 65.7

After Reeve left-

1993 92.8
1994 85.7
1995 86.4
1996 89.2
1997 87.5
1998 93.0

Based on that it looks like Reeves held Elway back.

[Kaylore]

Hmmm...

Elway QB rating in the Reeve era-

1983 54.9
1984 76.8
1985 70.2
1986 79.0
1987 83.4
1988 71.4
1989 73.7
1990 78.5
1991 75.4
1992 65.7

After Reeve left-

1993 92.8
1994 85.7
1995 86.4
1996 89.2
1997 87.5
1998 93.0

Based on that it looks like Reeves held Elway back.

Partly. Dan Reeves loved running up the middle all game long whether it was working or not. He was very Marty styled, so that obviously wasn't a good fit for Elway's talents. However, his low rating during the Reeves years was more to do with his style of play not being very QB-rating friendly.

The dumb QB rating puts too much emphasis on completion percentage. Elway would take the big play on just about every passing down. He'd throw thirty yards down field incomplete on first down. He'd throw a fifty yard incompletion on second, and then convert for twenty yards on third down. It caused some headaches when he'd force some balls, but it really gave defenses fits because they couldn't ever take a play off with him back there. His mobility prevented him from being sacked too often.

Also, these days a lot of defensive backs and receivers give up when they see a QB is under duress. Most QB's just hug the ball and take the sack. Elway would somehow escape certain doom and find guys down field for big yardage or even a TD (see Sharpe play.) It took receivers and linemen awhile when they played here to learn to keep playing until you heard the whistle blow.

When you consider how differently he played, it was effective but not as "pretty" as guys who would complete six or seven passes in a row but not convert third downs and throw to underneath to guys who weren't past the sticks, or worse, take a sack. It's a flaw in the QB system and a good example of how that rating is stupid. Anyone can dump off to backs and release valves and have a good rating. Can they make the money throw? Can they avoid the sack and convert on third and twenty? Elway could, but then he's in the HOF. ;)

[Clockwork Orange]

Hmmm...

Elway QB rating in the Reeve era-

1983 54.9
1984 76.8
1985 70.2
1986 79.0
1987 83.4
1988 71.4
1989 73.7
1990 78.5
1991 75.4
1992 65.7

After Reeve left-

1993 92.8
1994 85.7
1995 86.4
1996 89.2
1997 87.5
1998 93.0

Based on that it looks like Reeves held Elway back.

A good portion of that was because Phillips (as maligned as he was as the Broncos head coach) and Shanahan actually thought it wise to build an offense around their star QB.

Pretty amazing what happened once someone decided to get Elway some help.

[AboveAverage]

I apologize for my language, (and I don't know what you were trying to accomplish with this) but what a stupid ****ing post.

[Arkie]

and you'll see all these haters in this thread on the Plummer bandwagon. It's fun using the search engine on this site.

[TomServo]

trying to compare jake to elway...HolyCrap lets compare a Corvette to an i dunno..... a good running tractor

[Kaylore]

and you'll see all these haters in this thread on the Plummer bandwagon. It's fun using the search engine on this site.
Man, that's crazy! It's as though he was playing well back then! Wait a minute...

[Arkie]

Man, that's crazy! It's as though he was playing well back then! Wait a minute...

It was an odd year.

[Kaylore]

It was an odd year.

It makes me so mad, man. To this point, the worst we've seen from Plummer was that slump that hit a low in the Atlanta game of '04. That the was the first game I can think of where I thought Plummer was hurting our team's chances of winning. He ended up finishing strong that year and then '05 was great. So three good years with some rough spots, but every quarterback has those.

Then the meltdown against the Steelers hit and it seems like since then we've been stuck with bad Jake with the occational "mediocre" Jake sighting now and again. If he always sucked I wouldn't be upset, but he was a great QB for our system. Now he's playing worse than ever and I have a bad feeling that the more he fights it, the more he's going to jack things up.

I also have been wondering if the Steelers didn't provide a blueprint for how to shut Jake down and we're going to see that all year from now on. :notthissh

[Blart]

In middle-school it was the worst, in the early 90's I'd get harassed for wearing my broncos hat. Bronco fans were a minority among 12 year olds!

[broncocalijohn]

Boy you had quite a run there....sorry, but you're contributor to the OM, it should mean more to you than just a power struggle! It sounds like you have an overly masterful fetish for finding what your torpid soggy shiat sandwich determines as 'stupid'. Dude, you can neg rep me all you want - it seems it's your only way of justifying the excuses for the rest of whatever you wanna call that. I know life is hard when your dumb but you can start by putting your skirt back down it stinks. In fact, JUST TURN IT ALL OFF. Neg repping is just not a skill you possess, nor is posting.

Your point and reasoning is as sloppy as you're unmanaged business. True humor is you trying to express thought.

How many times did Elway throw the long ball when the short routes were open? How many times did he burn through all 3 downs just to get a first down on 4th (see The Drive, The Drive II)? How many times did Elway magically run for a first down? How many miracle plays did that guy have? How many times did you see him arguing with Reeves on the sidelines to run the play Elway thought was best? How many times did Elway improvise with Reeves playbook???? Think about it, or better yet, just take a sloppy guess. Yeah, I'd call that a ball and chain, albatross, burdened, more trouble than its worth - Elway did what he wanted to do on the field = 'freedom' because he had the legs and the arm and versatile skills to perform miracles - He said 'to hell with the gameplan let's just win this' and that is what we all loved him for - he took over a game. Reeves could put together whatever the hell he wanted as a gameplan, but Elway was the one who consistently overcame the odds - you can't gameplan, coach, or manage that.

Dude I don't care how long you've been a Broncos fan - just go away you masterful simped oaf - better yet, keep posting, it's good practice and eventually it might dole out.

u contridict yourself dumba$$! THey argued all the time because they were at odds! How can you tell us what we all know but put in your original post how Reeves gave him freedom? Elway would biatch slap u if he saw you post that. Thanks for the neg rep even though i was right and you proved it for me. Take the neg rep as a way of knowing you screwed up and everyone posting afterwards saw it. Short bus passenger. To say Reeves gave Elway freedom... LOL! Elway broke most of the playbook when he could that isnt freedom if Reeves brings in a play. That is called handcuffing!

[fontaine]

Man, that's crazy! It's as though he was playing well back then! Wait a minute...

This is what I don't understand? Just because Jake had two nice seasons for us, why does it mean we have to have blind faith in him forever?

In his past 8 competitive games spanning back to last season, Plummer has turned over the ball something like 13 freakin' times and, his accuracy, completion percentage, and general play have been just crap.

How many times do you have to get kicked in the nuts by this guy before you realize it hurts?

If Lynch starts slowing down, missing tackles, and blowing coverages consistently over an 8 game span are you supposed to stick with him or insert Sam Brandon. I mean, let's put this horse out to pasture. He's had a good run but it's coming to an end.