A Different Plummer Perspective

[Tredici]

At halftime of the Sunday night game I said to a Buddy - if the staff doesn't trust Plummer to do more than this gameplan, they might as well bench him. In a dicussion with Alec he mentioned Plummer played fine in the first half but Shanahan throttled him in the second half. I pulled out all the plays Plummer himself was part of. I don't see it. Outside of the long pass there is virtually no difference. I felt Jake was handcuffed right from the beginning. Apparently thinking that translates into me fawning over Cutler. I've never advocated putting in Cutler. I have expressed frustration with some of Jake's play and I have said he is capable of better. I don't think I would've even thought about this without the rudeness of our boy Alec, but for those of you thinking Plummer is piling up the W's - look at these playcalls and then answer the question at the bottom.


J.Plummer pass short middle to T.Bell to DEN 19 for -1 yards
J.Plummer pass short left to T.Bell to DEN 40 for 16 yards
J.Plummer pass short left to T.Bell to DEN 36 for -4 yards
J.Plummer scrambles up the middle to OAK 48 for 11 yards
J.Plummer pass short right to C.Sapp to OAK 44 for 2 yards
J.Plummer pass incomplete deep middle to J.Walker

J.Plummer pass deep middle to J.Walker to OAK 2 for 54 yards

J.Plummer pass incomplete short left to S.Alexander
J.Plummer pass short left to J.Walker to 50 for 5 yards
J.Plummer pass incomplete short left to R.Smith
J.Plummer sacked at OAK 33 for -2 yards

J.Plummer pass short right to T.Bell to OAK 24 for no gain
J.Plummer pass incomplete short right to C.Sapp

J.Plummer up the middle to DEN 2 for 1 yard
J.Plummer right guard to DEN 3 for 1 yard

J.Plummer pass incomplete short middle to T.Scheffler
J.Plummer pass short right to C.Sapp pushed ob at DEN 20 for 2 yards
J.Plummer pass incomplete short middle to T.Bell.

J.Plummer pass short right to R.Smith to DEN 32 for 12 yards
J.Plummer pass short middle to J.Walker to DEN 40 for 6 yards

J.Plummer pass incomplete short right to J.Walker
J.Plummer sacked at DEN 35 for -9 yards

J.Plummer pass short left to J.Walker to DEN 29 for 10 yards
J.Plummer left end to OAK 19 for 19 yards
J.Plummer kneels to OAK 20 for -1 yards.
J.Plummer kneels to OAK 21 for -1 yards.

Why couldn't a rookie execute that game plan???? What's so fkn complicated about producing that W?

And for the record I like winning, too. I do not know what is going on with the offensive play calling.

I do know allowing an average of 9 points a game means even Ryan Leaf might be able to notch a win.

Each week I turn on the game anticipating the return of the offense. Right now I'm hoping it's against Cleveland. And I'd prefer seeing it happen with Jake under center. I'm just starting to wonder if it matters.

[SteveTensi13]

Good work, but daaammnn, you must have a lot of time to actually break down play by play Plummers performance!

[Kaylore]

Good post except this is usually when they point to his wins and say we just need to be patient.

I'd like to point out that Plummer wasn't a winner before he came here and Shanahan was a winner without Plummer. Plummer is a winner because he's on a good team with a good coach.

[eddie mac]

Good post except this is usually when they point to his wins and say we just need to be patient.

I'd like to point out that Plummer wasn't a winner before he came here and Shanahan was a winner without Plummer. Plummer is a winner because he's on a good team with a good coach.

I cant remember the last game Plummer won, for that matter I cant remember the last game our offense won off their own backs. Our defense has carried our offense for nigh on 20 plus games.

[Clockwork Orange]

I'd like to point out that Plummer wasn't a winner before he came here and Shanahan was a winner without Plummer. Plummer is a winner because he's on a good team with a good coach.

The haters usually say that Shanahan isn't a winner without Elway.

[worm]

Was there any TOs in that list?

Would there have been with a rook?

[Clockwork Orange]

Was there any TOs in that list?

Would there have been with a rook?

With that play calling? I seriously doubt it.

[Kaylore]

Was there any TOs in that list?

Would there have been with a rook?

It was so conservative that turnover potential was minimized. The point she is making is that a game plan like that would do the same thing for Cutler.

[Northman]

Well, they cant bitch about the defense anymore so whats next of course? The Coaching. Forget what visual evidence shows you on the Telly and just believe that everything around Jake is failing him. People will go to great lengths to show that Plummer doesnt have a problem. Its sad.

[azbroncfan]

I cant remember the last game Plummer won, for that matter I cant remember the last game our offense won off their own backs. Our defense has carried our offense for nigh on 20 plus games.

Philly game last year was the last game I remember the O winning.

[Popps]

I'm sure Cutler could execute the game plan, to an extent. But, as we saw with that INT for a TD in the pre-season, it's not a sure thing. He's got some things to figure it out.

Does anyone have proof that he even has a solid grip on our playbook, yet?

Everyone points to this game because we were conservative, but what about the New England game? Jake worked out of the gun, did quite a bit of pocket passing and the plan was more complex. Why only focus on this week's conservative play-calling?

Plus, Shanahan can't look a team of vets like Lynch and Smith in the face and tell them.... "yea guys, I know we're 4-1 with a winnable game coming up, but I'd like to experiment with a kid who was tapping the keg at a frat party 6 months ago."

What's the point of that, if you're Shanahan... particularly if your hand isn't forced? (And when you're winning, your hand isn't forced.)

I AGREE, WE NEED MORE OFFENSIVE OUTPUT. (Please read that three times before proceeding.)

That said, we're winning by 10 or so every week and were never really in danger of losing any of these games. This is not a panic situation. We've got some new weapons and a QB who started out in a funk. He's had what, 2 turnovers in the last 3 games?

I understand people want to see Cutler. I can't wait to see him. But, it's just not going to happen while we're winning like this, and given the performance of our offense the last few years, there's every reason to believe we'll find some traction and score more points. We've played 5 games. Think about how drastically different (good or bad) a team can look in week 5, as opposed to week 12. (For instance)

It's just not going to happen unless Jake totally melts down. We'll all get to see Cutler if he does. If not, Shanny is going to try to parlay Jake's strong-points into a SB before he goes. Again, I just can't see what's so bad about that situation.

[SoDak Bronco]

I'm sure Cutler could execute the game plan, to an extent. But, as we saw with that INT for a TD in the pre-season, it's not a sure thing. He's got some things to figure it out.

Does anyone have proof that he even has a solid grip on our playbook, yet?

Everyone points to this game because we were conservative, but what about the New England game? Jake worked out of the gun, did quite a bit of pocket passing and the plan was more complex. Why only focus on this week's conservative play-calling?

Plus, Shanahan can't look a team of vets like Lynch and Smith in the face and tell them.... "yea guys, I know we're 4-1 with a winnable game coming up, but I'd like to experiment with a kid who was tapping the keg at a frat party 6 months ago."

What's the point of that, if you're Shanahan... particularly if your hand isn't forced? (And when you're winning, your hand isn't forced.)

I AGREE, WE NEED MORE OFFENSIVE OUTPUT. (Please read that three times before proceeding.)

That said, we're winning by 10 or so every week and were never really in danger of losing any of these games. This is not a panic situation. We've got some new weapons and a QB who started out in a funk. He's had what, 2 turnovers in the last 3 games?

I understand people want to see Cutler. I can't wait to see him. But, it's just not going to happen while we're winning like this, and given the performance of our offense the last few years, there's every reason to believe we'll find some traction and score more points. We've played 5 games. Think about how drastically different (good or bad) a team can look in week 5, as opposed to week 12. (For instance)

It's just not going to happen unless Jake totally melts down. We'll all get to see Cutler if he does. If not, Shanny is going to try to parlay Jake's strong-points into a SB before he goes. Again, I just can't see what's so bad about that situation.

I think most fans feel that we cannot get it done with Plummer. And by done, I mean getting to, and winning the Super-Bowl. With Cutler, we have a more accurate, stronger armed QB.

[Kaylore]

Why only focus on this week's conservative play-calling?
:spit: Do you really want to go there? There is more evidence against your argument than there is for it if you bring up past games.

[Northman]

I'm sure Cutler could execute the game plan, to an extent. But, as we saw with that INT for a TD in the pre-season, it's not a sure thing. He's got some things to figure it out.

Does anyone have proof that he even has a solid grip on our playbook, yet?

Everyone points to this game because we were conservative, but what about the New England game? Jake worked out of the gun, did quite a bit of pocket passing and the plan was more complex. Why only focus on this week's conservative play-calling?

Plus, Shanahan can't look a team of vets like Lynch and Smith in the face and tell them.... "yea guys, I know we're 4-1 with a winnable game coming up, but I'd like to experiment with a kid who was tapping the keg at a frat party 6 months ago."

What's the point of that, if you're Shanahan... particularly if your hand isn't forced? (And when you're winning, your hand isn't forced.)

I AGREE, WE NEED MORE OFFENSIVE OUTPUT. (Please read that three times before proceeding.)

That said, we're winning by 10 or so every week and were never really in danger of losing any of these games. This is not a panic situation. We've got some new weapons and a QB who started out in a funk. He's had what, 2 turnovers in the last 3 games?

I understand people want to see Cutler. I can't wait to see him. But, it's just not going to happen while we're winning like this, and given the performance of our offense the last few years, there's every reason to believe we'll find some traction and score more points. We've played 5 games. Think about how drastically different (good or bad) a team can look in week 5, as opposed to week 12. (For instance)

It's just not going to happen unless Jake totally melts down. We'll all get to see Cutler if he does. If not, Shanny is going to try to parlay Jake's strong-points into a SB before he goes. Again, I just can't see what's so bad about that situation.



Your right, until the well drys up and we start losing we wont see Cutler.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

I AGREE, WE NEED MORE OFFENSIVE OUTPUT. (Please read that three times before proceeding.)

That said, we're winning by 10 or so every week and were never really in danger of losing any of these games. This is not a panic situation. We've got some new weapons and a QB who started out in a funk. He's had what, 2 turnovers in the last 3 games?

I understand people want to see Cutler. I can't wait to see him. But, it's just not going to happen while we're winning like this, and given the performance of our offense the last few years, there's every reason to believe we'll find some traction and score more points. We've played 5 games. Think about how drastically different (good or bad) a team can look in week 5, as opposed to week 12. (For instance)

It's just not going to happen unless Jake totally melts down. We'll all get to see Cutler if he does. If not, Shanny is going to try to parlay Jake's strong-points into a SB before he goes. Again, I just can't see what's so bad about that situation.

Exactly - Now can we move on to another subject perhaps:

Is Kircus for real with only 4 catches in the first 5 games?
Will Marshall develop?
How are the DL getting pressure with a bunch of retreads?
Deo we have the best LBs in the league?
etc.

Anything but this constant waling and battering our heads against the wall about Jake?

[Taco John]

Why couldn't a rookie execute that game plan???? What's so fkn complicated about producing that W?



Good post Tred.

It brings up a debate I've been having with Clockwork. His assertion, as I understand it, is that we shouldn't bring in Cutler to be a game manager. Either he comes in to run the full offense, or he doesn't come in at all. Mind you, this is how I understand his argument, and it makes no sense to me.

I think that if we're going to bring in Cutler, we need to do it in week 8. I think he needs to start out with a relatively simple game plan, and that we feed him more as is needed, and more importantly, as he can handle it. I think if we do it like that, we can have him ahead of where Plummer would be come playoff time, and in a situation that few rookies get... Leading a team into the post season with an opportunity to get playoff experience. Whether he wins or loses there, to me, is immaterial, because I don't believe Plummer is capable of going the distance. My only point in this is to say that I don't think we're missing anything by putting Cutler in, which is what I believe the point of your post, Tredici.

That's a long way of saying, "I agree."

[watermock]

Philly game last year was the last game I remember the O winning.

Actually we went craxy zero zone man to man coverage and bullrushed 8 or even9 in that game.

Coiyer dropped some acid or something. He went insane.

[baja]

Well on the bright side at this rate the offense should be peaking at the right time about week 16.

[Rohirrim]

Damn! You people just won't listen to me. This is all part of Jake's nefarious plan. He knows that if he posts a big lead there's a chance that Mike will give Cutler some playing time. Jake knows that if that happens, he'll never get in another game. It's the Wally Pipp syndrome.

[Clockwork Orange]

It brings up a debate I've been having with Clockwork. His assertion, as I understand it, is that we shouldn't bring in Cutler to be a game manager. Either he comes in to run the full offense, or he doesn't come in at all. Mind you, this is how I understand his argument, and it makes no sense to me.

Of course it makes no sense to you. You can't see past your love for game managing QB's, your impatience and your hatred for Plummer to understand it. I'm tired of explaining it to you, so think whatever you want.

[Taco John]

Exactly - Now can we move on to another subject perhaps:

Is Kircus for real with only 4 catches in the first 5 games?
Will Marshall develop?

Keep in mind that any discussion of our receivers has to be considered under the light that we're only throwing 25-30 passes a game at about a 60% completion clip... A good percentage of those completions are going to running backs, and other high percentage, short yardage passing plays. The reason we're throwing out a game plan like that is... (fill in your own blank...)


Anything but this constant waling and battering our heads against the wall about Jake?

The number one problem on the team is obviously going to be discussed on a Broncos forum. Either start threads that you want to see discussed, or get used to the idea that people are going to be discussing the thing that they want to discuss.

[Taco John]

Of course it makes no sense to you. You can't see past your love for game managing QB's, your impatience and your hatred for Plummer to understand it. I'm tired of explaining it to you, so think whatever you want.

I don't have a love for game managing QBs. I gave you an opportunity to present your position, in a rather civil manner. Your vitriol tells me that you're not altogether comfortable with the take, and that the take is more of a pot shot at me than anything actually valid that you're trying to advance.

I appreciate the illumination.

[Clockwork Orange]

I don't have a love for game managing QBs. I gave you an opportunity to present your position, in a rather civil manner. Your vitriol tells me that you're not altogether comfortable with the take, and that the take is more of a pot shot at me than anything actually valid that you're trying to advance.

I appreciate the illumination.

Then you're not quite as adept at reading between the lines as you give yourself credit for.

Stick to the "Plummer sux!" and "Cutler rulz!" schtick that you've been flooding the board with. You're a lot better at that.

[Taco John]

Then you're not quite as adept at reading between the lines as you give yourself credit for.

Stick to the "Plummer sux!" and "Cutler rulz!" schtick that you've been flooding the board with. You're a lot better at that.


You're not as good at pushing buttons as Popps is.

[Clockwork Orange]

You're not as good at pushing buttons as Popps is.

I couldn't possibly care less about pushing your buttons. Again, you give yourself way too much credit.

[Barry Ramey]

It's very apparent Plummer could throw for 300 yards and 4 TD's and you'd still see people bitching about his performance. So he isn't going to win over some fans no matter what he does and that's sad. Maybe those fans will get lucky and they'll sign Jeff George since he probably still has a rocket for an arm and that seems to be what they think is the most important thing for a QB.

[Taco John]

Liar...


Stick to the "Plummer sux!" and "Cutler rulz!" schtick that you've been flooding the board with. You're a lot better at that.


I'm not going to waste any more time trying to understand your position. I'm not sure why you didn't just explain it, and instead decided to turn it into a kiddie fight.

Sorry to almost hijack the thread Tred. I think you make a great point.

[Rohirrim]

It's very apparent Plummer could throw for 300 yards and 4 TD's and you'd still see people b****ing about his performance. So he isn't going to win over some fans no matter what he does and that's sad. Maybe those fans will get lucky and they'll sign Jeff George since he probably still has a rocket for an arm and that seems to be what they think is the most important thing for a QB.


That's totally wrong. What everybody wants to see out of Jake is 4 TDs and 300 yards. The time is coming, and soon, where 13 points is not going to do the trick. This D is going to get burned out quick at the rate of time they are spending on the field.

[Taco John]

That's totally wrong. What everybody wants to see out of Jake is 4 TDs and 300 yards. The time is coming, and soon, where 13 points is not going to do the trick. This D is going to get burned out quick at the rate on time they are spending on the field.


At this point, I'd praise a 150 yard game with 2 TDs.

[Clockwork Orange]

Liar...




I'm not going to waste any more time trying to understand your position. I'm not sure why you didn't just explain it, and instead decided to turn it into a kiddie fight.

Sorry to almost hijack the thread Tred. I think you make a great point.

Yeah, that was a real attempt on my part to push your buttons. Again, believe whatever you want. ::)

I've explained it to you multiple times already. Go dig up one of those threads if you're so desperate to read it again. You didn't understand it then, why would you now?

Best to let it drop.

[Taco John]

Best for you maybe. I was kind of hoping to see you try to defend the position with any kind of reason. It turns out that it was just a shell take for pushing my Griese buttons. No actual substance...

Pity. :pity:

[Kaylore]

It's very apparent Plummer could throw for 300 yards and 4 TD's and you'd still see people b****ing about his performance.
::) Yeah that's it. Trust me, we got over looking for numbers like that from Plummer a long time ago. How about passing the ball down field to receivers (not release valve running backs) and completing 60% of your passes with twice as many TD's as interceptions. Is that a reach?

[dnvrbrncos]

Does anyone have proof that he even has a solid grip on our playbook, yet?


The one they practice with or the one that shows up on gameday? It's rather vital to answering your question.

[Clockwork Orange]

Best for you maybe. I was kind of hoping to see you try to defend the position with any kind of reason. It turns out that it was just a shell take for pushing my Griese buttons. No actual substance...

Pity. :pity:

Yes, I've been so afraid to defend my position that I've done it numerous times in the past. Try out the search function if you want to read it again.

[baja]

Good observation T any thoughts on why it is sooo conservative?

[Popps]

Your right, until the well drys up and we start losing we wont see Cutler.

Right, because that's happened in the last three years.

Oh... wait, no it didn't.

But, the moon is made of green cheese!!

Wheeeeeee!

[Killericon]

http://i.a.cnn.net./si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0610/gallery.nfl.fans.week6/images/72175980_10.jpg

[broncobum6162]

I agree Tredici. Great work. Read my post on the Blurb on Broncos Replay.
We are singing the same tune.

At halftime of the Sunday night game I said to a Buddy - if the staff doesn't trust Plummer to do more than this gameplan, they might as well bench him. In a dicussion with Alec he mentioned Plummer played fine in the first half but Shanahan throttled him in the second half. I pulled out all the plays Plummer himself was part of. I don't see it. Outside of the long pass there is virtually no difference. I felt Jake was handcuffed right from the beginning. Apparently thinking that translates into me fawning over Cutler. I've never advocated putting in Cutler. I have expressed frustration with some of Jake's play and I have said he is capable of better. I don't think I would've even thought about this without the rudeness of our boy Alec, but for those of you thinking Plummer is piling up the W's - look at these playcalls and then answer the question at the bottom.


J.Plummer pass short middle to T.Bell to DEN 19 for -1 yards
J.Plummer pass short left to T.Bell to DEN 40 for 16 yards
J.Plummer pass short left to T.Bell to DEN 36 for -4 yards
J.Plummer scrambles up the middle to OAK 48 for 11 yards
J.Plummer pass short right to C.Sapp to OAK 44 for 2 yards
J.Plummer pass incomplete deep middle to J.Walker

J.Plummer pass deep middle to J.Walker to OAK 2 for 54 yards

J.Plummer pass incomplete short left to S.Alexander
J.Plummer pass short left to J.Walker to 50 for 5 yards
J.Plummer pass incomplete short left to R.Smith
J.Plummer sacked at OAK 33 for -2 yards

J.Plummer pass short right to T.Bell to OAK 24 for no gain
J.Plummer pass incomplete short right to C.Sapp

J.Plummer up the middle to DEN 2 for 1 yard
J.Plummer right guard to DEN 3 for 1 yard

J.Plummer pass incomplete short middle to T.Scheffler
J.Plummer pass short right to C.Sapp pushed ob at DEN 20 for 2 yards
J.Plummer pass incomplete short middle to T.Bell.

J.Plummer pass short right to R.Smith to DEN 32 for 12 yards
J.Plummer pass short middle to J.Walker to DEN 40 for 6 yards

J.Plummer pass incomplete short right to J.Walker
J.Plummer sacked at DEN 35 for -9 yards

J.Plummer pass short left to J.Walker to DEN 29 for 10 yards
J.Plummer left end to OAK 19 for 19 yards
J.Plummer kneels to OAK 20 for -1 yards.
J.Plummer kneels to OAK 21 for -1 yards.

Why couldn't a rookie execute that game plan???? What's so fkn complicated about producing that W?

And for the record I like winning, too. I do not know what is going on with the offensive play calling.

I do know allowing an average of 9 points a game means even Ryan Leaf might be able to notch a win.

Each week I turn on the game anticipating the return of the offense. Right now I'm hoping it's against Cleveland. And I'd prefer seeing it happen with Jake under center. I'm just starting to wonder if it matters.

[BroncoSoja]

I'm sure Cutler could execute the game plan, to an extent. But, as we saw with that INT for a TD in the pre-season, it's not a sure thing. He's got some things to figure it out.


And please do tell us what he did on the next possesion right after he tossed that INT... You seem to have conviently left that part out, nothing new there.

[DenverBrit]

Until the vets in the locker room make it possible, Jake stays where he is. He will have to lose games, unfortunately, for a change to be made. Later in the season is when a switch is possible, not this early and not while the team is winning.

[Hulamau]

Was there any TOs in that list?

Would there have been with a rook?

Easily against this Chokeland team who is giving up 28 points a game on average before improving that stat against us! Cutler would have put at least and extra 7 to 14 on them, even with exactly the same freakin' game plan.

The speed with which Cutler gets his passes off and the fact that his throws arrive to the WRs hands at least a half second before even Jake's better throws, not to mention his much greater accuracy and consistency, would turn this offensive machine on like flipping a switch! Plus Culter has aready shown a willingness to throw on target to both Scheff and Kricus as well as Rod and Walker.

Add to that, that Shanny would feel more comfortable callin g a whole laundry list of plays collecting cobwebs on the shelf with Plummer at the helm, and we might well have busted that game wide open.

The jaundiced view that ALL rookie QBs cant play was formed from watching a bunch of young guys thrown into the fire on struggling teams.

Only Marino and Rothelisberger in the last 25 to 30 years were both true blue chip, first round studs that ALSO went to top flight teams AND had the good fortune to start the first year, and it turned out predictably just swell for them. Even Shanny said this offseason after drafting Cutler, in response to a question on how soon a franchise rookie QB could really step in and play well that:

Shanny: "You'd be surprised how fast a franchise quality QB can be up to speed on a solid team with an established coaching staff".

Think about it for a second, we've got a DOMINANT defense that would only be even better if they played for only 23 minutes a game, instead of 35 or whatever it is.

Those other very rare first round QBs that did wind up on decent teams almost NEVER started as rooks because the decent teams almost ALWAYS had a proficient QB at the helm during the rookies first couple of years!

Those blue chip rookies that DID start and struggled, mostly struggled because they were starting for Arizona, Detroit, San Diego and Cleveland etc ...all bottom dwellers that had an endemic culture of Losing ( also a few were outright duds as well like Cade McKnown and Ryan Leaf!

Cutler WILL make his share of mistakes and INTs when he comes in, probably more than even Jake would throw this year with this ball and chain around his neck, but Jay-Cee would also bring a much needed fire and electricity to the offense and would complete far more of the tough throws, and score more TDs, making up for those INTs and mistakes as well.

Plus, with this defense, we can afford some of his on the job training mistakes because the lion share of those turnovers wont result in scores for teh other team anyway!

Bottomline, there is absolutely NO question that Cutler could do at least as good a job efficiently managing this team with this degree of dumbed-down scheme and choke chain we have wrapped around Jake now!

And at the same time, he'd at least be improving by leaps and bounds with each passing game, while Jake seems to have peaked last year in what is increasingly looking like his fluke year.

Its true that, diplomatically, we will likely have to endure a couple of back to back heartbreaker's before Shanny even considers a switch, but if and when it happens this year, I have no doubt it will be in our long term best interest, and most likely even to our advantage this year as well.

[Bronco Billy]

Tred,

Congrats! Finally, a Plummer thread with insight! I totally agree with you and the rest.

I want Plummer to start, but not if it means playing this kind of football. If Shanny has to simplify the offense this much for Plummer, just put in Cutler. I'm sure he can hand the ball off and Dink & Doink our passing game around with swing routes and hitting Tater in the flats as well as Plummer. I was embarrassed watching our offense on Sunday night. I'm not going to Cleveland to watch a high school offense.

Edit: With the way our defense is playing, I believe Cutler will take us to the playoffs. If we're going to replace our QB, let's do it now and give him as much experience as possible before January. Until then, I'll keep hoping Plummer will get into a rhythm and Shanny will let him make plays.

[cmhargrove]

Don't all the experts say that Rothliescheesburger was successful because he started as a rookie on an established team with a strong running game and great defense?

Hmmmm..... It makes you wonder.... Does Jay Cutler ride a motorcycle or have an appendix? We should take both of those away ASAP.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Keep in mind that any discussion of our receivers has to be considered under the light that we're only throwing 25-30 passes a game at about a 60% completion clip... A good percentage of those completions are going to running backs, and other high percentage, short yardage passing plays. The reason we're throwing out a game plan like that is... (fill in your own blank...)




The number one problem on the team is obviously going to be discussed on a Broncos forum. Either start threads that you want to see discussed, or get used to the idea that people are going to be discussing the thing that they want to discuss.

TJ - Its beginning to be obvious that you just want to pump up your post count to attract advertisers

[BroncoMatt]

At this point, I'd praise a 150 yard game with 2 TDs.

you mean like going 15/30 256 yards 2TD's no turnovers AT the 4-1 Patriots?

[Rascal]

Till Shanny starts Cutler, I'll continue to believe that Plummer is the best QB for the team. I'll stick with the person whose opinion truly does count and the most credibility.

[freak6]

I'm sure Cutler could execute the game plan, to an extent. But, as we saw with that INT for a TD in the pre-season, it's not a sure thing. He's got some things to figure it out.

Because Jake never throws any stupid interceptions. If anything, Jake looks like the rookie QB, making stupid plays.


Does anyone have proof that he even has a solid grip on our playbook, yet?
Yes, but the gameplan is so complicated and completely revised each week it's not about knowing the entire thing, that weeks gameplan is what counts. But, the FO has been quoted that Cutler does have a good grip on the playbook. He wouldn't be the #2 if Shanny didn't trust him to execute it.

That said, we're winning by 10 or so every week and were never really in danger of losing any of these games.

10 points is nothing in the NFL, especially considering we've forced 4 red zone turnovers in 3 games all decided by less than 10 points, one of which went to OT


and given the performance of our offense the last few years, there's every reason to believe we'll find some traction and score more points.

Or it could get worse. I don't see it getting any better. We just barely scraped by the worst team in the league at home. Are we really going to rely upon this terrible offense in January? Are we really going to rely upon Shaky Jakey Plummer to win the Super Bowl? Yikes.

[-Slap-]

I liked the part of the post that pointed out Alec is rude and I would like to add he is stupid as well.

:)

[baja]

I liked the part of the post that pointed out Alec is rude and I would like to add he is stupid as well.

:)

Ya and he calls me unamerican and he's from Texas. Go figure!

[Taco John]

I liked the part of the post that pointed out Alec is rude and I would like to add he is stupid as well.

:)

Ha!

Rep I received from Alec tonight:

"Because you arent the coach you stupid ****. Im just waiting for the Cutler excuses Im sure you will have for us for the next 5 years when he does end up starting and sucking."

[Popps]

And please do tell us what he did on the next possesion right after he tossed that INT... You seem to have conviently left that part out, nothing new there.

Got it.

So, you're willing to forgive any INTs Jake throws as long as he throws a TD in the same game?

Cool. Good to know. I know you'll stick to that rule.

Oh, and I didn't "omit" him throwing a TD. I've already said he looks great and I'm a big fan of the kid. But, you'd have actually read my posts to know that. You'd rather just cut out sentences and draw faulty conclusions.

[Northman]

Right, because that's happened in the last three years.

Oh... wait, no it didn't.

But, the moon is made of green cheese!!

Wheeeeeee!



Past is past Popps, this is a new year. Im living in the now.

[elsid13]

The only problem that I have with the origanal post tells us what Plummer did not what the play was designed to do. Were the passes (expect the screens) designed to go the RBs, or did Plummer not see the prime open and decided to check down. That kinda stuff. I really wondering if it the play calls or the guy executing them at this point. Or a little of both.

[Kaylore]

Ha!

Rep I received from Alec tonight:

"Because you arent the coach you stupid ****. Im just waiting for the Cutler excuses Im sure you will have for us for the next 5 years when he does end up starting and sucking."
The sad thing about that is he formed his opinion of Jay Cutler in five minutes after listening to someone describe him. I remember the thread. He declared "sounds like Jake Plummer without the wins." After that his mind was made up and his opinion of him has worsened every week.

I'm convinced that Alec hates Cutler because:

1. He likes Plummer. (I do too. I just don't like this Plummer.) Cutler means no more Plummer.

2. He likes Vince Young. This is based mostly on him being a Longhorn. I think that Vince is going to be a good quarterback, but a bit slower on the uptake because he came out early. I think he's upset we didn't go after Vince Young and I promise that had we done so he'd be at least ambivalent about a QB change.

The problem with his "Cutler sucks" comments (other than they are mostly designed to piss off Taco) are that he never bothers to back them up with anything.

[baja]

I think Alec is more about attention and coming off as this cool non conformist character he fancies himself than anything else.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Does anyone have proof that he even has a solid grip on our playbook, yet?

ROFL!
Like the playbook Plummer is using is ultra complicated.

I guarantee if we continue this HS play book game plan this week all hell is going to break loose.

I take that back, most HS's run far more complicated offense's than we're running.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I don't think I would've even thought about this without the rudeness of our boy Alec,
To be fair though, Alec stated he's not really a NFL fan and only more or less a Bronco fan.

[55CrushEm]

The haters usually say that Shanahan isn't a winner without Elway.

Nope, Shanny won in the big one in San Fran (albeit as the O-coordinator)......it was Elway who couldn't win the big one without Shanahan....

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Nope, Shanny won in the big one in San Fran (albeit as the O-coordinator)......it was Elway who couldn't win the big one without Shanahan....
Nope, it was Reeves who couldn't win the "big one" with the greatest QB to ever play the game.

[BroncoInferno]

Why couldn't a rookie execute that game plan???? What's so fkn complicated about producing that W?

It's become a popular axiom to say, "If Jake is going to play like a rookie, why not play the rookie?"

Well, a couple reasons. For one thing, everyone seems so sure the problem is mainly Plummer. I'm not so sure. He hasn't looked good to be sure, but we've got a lot of new guys in the passing game. Scheffler, who is replacing Putz, is a rookie, so it really shouldn't be surprising that he has struggled so far. I think he'll be better than Putz in the long run, but in the here and now, I think you'd have to say that's a downgrade. Kircus looked great in the preseason, but how many preseason wonders have we seen over the years? He may just be another Todd Devoe. Marshall, another guy who we've expected big things from, is, like Sheffler, a rookie, and a rookie who missed a ton of valuable reps in the preseason with his injury. The pass protection from the OL has been a bit shaky. There are plenty of other factors going on here that would likely trouble Cutler as well.

Also, Jake has turned it over twice since the opener. Do we know that Cutler wouldn't have more TOs, even with a simplified gameplan? I'm not so sure. He's a gunslinger. Who's to say he wouldn't have forced the action into, say, four or five picks rather than two, maybe costing us a game somewhere?

The biggest reason, though, is the one Popps pointed out: how can Shanny go to the vets and say, "Look, I know you've won with Plummer; I know we're 4-1 now; I know no rookie has ever won the Super Bowl, but we're going to give the kid a shot"? You think the team would respond well to that? That kind of thing could--and likely would--divide the locker room a la 1999. Shanahan knows what he's doing here. Plummer is our best chance for 2006, all factors considered. With that said, I absolutely agree he's got to play better. I think he will. I mean, I think most people could at least agree that, overall, his regular season play as a Bronco has been solid, no? Hopefully, he'll get back to that. But once we go to Cutler, that's it, there's no turning back.

[Steve Sewell]

I'm leaning towards the Cutler crew if we see another game like Oakland on Sunday.

However, has anyone ever considered the kind of pressure Cutler would feel if he was thrust into the starting role? Seriously, he'd be on a 5-1, veteran team, with crazy expectations from Bronco fans (that always a given)! He seems to be a cool customer, but you have to think that he'd be under an enormous amount of pressure from the coaches, teammates, fans, and media. That's kind of scary, isn't it? I just don't want to see him come in and implode and destroy his confidence forever, that's all I'm saying. If Shanahan puts him in, I'm going to go ahead and assume that there will be some SERIOUS training wheels attached because of this. Food for thought.

[jonny1]

The only problem that I have with the origanal post tells us what Plummer did not what the play was designed to do. Were the passes (expect the screens) designed to go the RBs, or did Plummer not see the prime open and decided to check down. (my emphasis)

Or maybe the prime receiver WASN'T OPEN, and he checked down, but the Jake haters don't think he can see beyond one receiver.

And some people talk about "so and so was wide open on that play, Jake was afraid to throw it to him . . ." without considering that what we can see on TV (on the replay no less) does not translate to what the QB can see with 9 to 12 guys in front of him. A QB needs throwing lanes and sight lines to see an open receiver.

[Steve Sewell]

him being a Longhorn

Question answered, Kaylore!

[Steve Sewell]

Nope, Shanny won in the big one in San Fran (albeit as the O-coordinator)......it was Elway who couldn't win the big one without Shanahan....

Yeah but the revisionist historians(mostly media and Chump fans) nowadays claim that Shanahan is nothing without Elway, even though he sports a .650 winning percentage without him, which is one of the tops in the NFL over that time period.

[freak6]

I'm leaning towards the Cutler crew if we see another game like Oakland on Sunday.

However, has anyone ever considered the kind of pressure Cutler would feel if he was thrust into the starting role?


Disagree, we'd be way more forgiving of an actual rookie making "rookie" mistakes, than a 10 year vet.

[BroncoSoja]

Got it.

Wrong you don't "Got it"


So, you're willing to forgive any INTs Jake throws as long as he throws a TD in the same game?

And here is why you don't "Got it".. Im willing to forgive any INT's by Jake as long as he comes back on the field (after not arguing with the coach and looking like a lost puppy) brushes it off and leads his team back down the field for a score. You know like the Cutler (the kid you said has "got some things to figure it out" after he tossed a pick.)


Oh, and I didn't "omit" him throwing a TD.

No you just omitted him throwing a TD right after he tossed a pick for a TD.
"But, as we saw with that INT for a TD in the pre-season, it's not a sure thing. He's got some things to figure it out." Or did you seem to forget that comment.


:clown:

[Steve Sewell]

It's become a popular axiom to say, "If Jake is going to play like a rookie, why not play the rookie?"

Well, a couple reasons. For one thing, everyone seems so sure the problem is mainly Plummer. I'm not so sure. He hasn't looked good to be sure, but we've got a lot of new guys in the passing game. Scheffler, who is replacing Putz, is a rookie, so it really shouldn't be surprising that he has struggled so far. I think he'll be better than Putz in the long run, but in the here and now, I think you'd have to say that's a downgrade. Kircus looked great in the preseason, but how many preseason wonders have we seen over the years? He may just be another Todd Devoe. Marshall, another guy who we've expected big things from, is, like Sheffler, a rookie, and a rookie who missed a ton of valuable reps in the preseason with his injury. The pass protection from the OL has been a bit shaky. There are plenty of other factors going on here that would likely trouble Cutler as well.

Also, Jake has turned it over twice since the opener. Do we know that Cutler wouldn't have more TOs, even with a simplified gameplan? I'm not so sure. He's a gunslinger. Who's to say he wouldn't have forced the action into, say, four or five picks rather than two, maybe costing us a game somewhere?

The biggest reason, though, is the one Popps pointed out: how can Shanny go to the vets and say, "Look, I know you've won with Plummer; I know we're 4-1 now; I know no rookie has ever won the Super Bowl, but we're going to give the kid a shot"? You think the team would respond well to that? That kind of thing could--and likely would--divide the locker room a la 1999. Shanahan knows what he's doing here. Plummer is our best chance for 2006, all factors considered. With that said, I absolutely agree he's got to play better. I think he will. I mean, I think most people could at least agree that, overall, his regular season play as a Bronco has been solid, no? Hopefully, he'll get back to that. But once we go to Cutler, that's it, there's no turning back.

Nice post. With regard to turnovers, I think the popular perception of Cutler around here, but the nature of his talents and his history at Vandy, is that he can overcome mistakes and Jake cannot. I know that Jake has a great 4th quarter comeback record but a vast majority of those came in Arizona.

I for one think that Jake has been pretty clutch this year, performing well when it counted. However, I'm also not naive enough to think that this is going to happen every week. IMO, if we're ever down by 14+ with Jake, the game is over. With Cutler and his arm/accuracy/release/intangibles, I think that he can be one of those guys that can overcome that kind of deficit. Just my opinion.

I must say that I applaud Jake this season for being clutch when he needed to be, though.

[BroncoInferno]

[QUOTE=Steve Sewell;1318310]I'm leaning towards the Cutler crew if we see another game like Oakland on Sunday.

However, has anyone ever considered the kind of pressure Cutler would feel if he was thrust into the starting role? [QUOTE]


Disagree, we'd be way more forgiving of an actual rookie making "rookie" mistakes, than a 10 year vet.

Freak, how do you know Cutler (even with a simplified game plan) would not have thrown 4 or 5 picks in the last four games instead of the 2 Plummer has thrown over that span, possibly costing us a game? You have no idea.

[Steve Sewell]

Disagree, we'd be way more forgiving of an actual rookie making "rookie" mistakes, than a 10 year vet.

Freak, I'm sure the fans would be more lenient (probably not the Plummer homers though...they'd want revenge), but think about the vets on a 5-1 team with SB aspirations and the pressure in the locker room. I have faith in Cutler, I'm just trying to imagine the type of pressure he'd be under internally and from the media (who LOVES a QB controversy).

[BroncoInferno]

Nice post. With regard to turnovers, I think the popular perception of Cutler around here, but the nature of his talents and his history at Vandy, is that he can overcome mistakes and Jake cannot.

Do we really know that Cutler can overcome his mistakes? Vandy won all of 13 games and 0 bowl games with him at the helm. I understand he had little to work with, but I'm not sure we have enough evidence that the above is true given the rarity of wins in Cutler's collegiate career.

[Tredici]

Good observation T any thoughts on why it is sooo conservative?

That's the point exactly. For me this isn't a Jake vs. Jay controversy. It's more about why the offense is being throttled down.

The other day Mike Bell and Darrent Williams were on the radio discussing the complexity of the offensive play calling. Neither of them could even repeat a call that would happen in the huddle. Bell said the running backs only listen for the keywords which mean something to them. He said the only position which need to understand the full call are the wide receivers. -- Even hinted that's one of the reasons Champ stopped asking to play offense. Too much time involved to learn the playbook.

So we hear how complicated the offense is and then you look at the Oakland game plan.

Is it, like some have speculated the purposely dumbing down due to the perception of a weak opponent so they don't put anything on game film?

Is it seeing how conservative an offense you can run and perhaps get away with putting a rookie in the lineup?

Is it Jake struggling during the week in practice?

Is it rotating in new guys on the offensive line?

Is it not having that punishing ground game?

Is it having new personnel in a key position like tight end?

Is it simply a new offensive coordinator trying to put his mark on the team?

All of these things? None of these things?

Only one of those questions involves Jake. The QB is always the lightning rod for the team. Too much praise when it's good, too much scorn when it's bad. I'm not convinced Plummer is the problem. Just another of the baffling symptoms nobody seems to be able to diagnose.

[Bronco9798]

Keep in mind that any discussion of our receivers has to be considered under the light that we're only throwing 25-30 passes a game at about a 60% completion clip... A good percentage of those completions are going to running backs, and other high percentage, short yardage passing plays. The reason we're throwing out a game plan like that is... (fill in your own blank...)



The number one problem on the team is obviously going to be discussed on a Broncos forum. Either start threads that you want to see discussed, or get used to the idea that people are going to be discussing the thing that they want to discuss.


The Offense that the Broncos run (version of WCO) is intended to use the short pasing game and use the RB's out of the backfield. The problem is that we have a TE who is a rookie (pass bouncing off his helmet; looking over wrong shoulder) and no other viable options at TE. Who would of thought we'd be missing Putz right now. He wasn't an all-pro but if you threw it his way, he was catching it. The TE in this offense is like the #3 receiver. We basically have two passing options with the WR's right now. We have to get production from the TE to make this offense be what it is intended to be.

We had 3 possessions in the second half the other night and not one of those possessinos had a turnover by Plummer. TB couldn't convert a 3rd and two on one of them after a 6 yard pass to JW put us in that position.

Remember the Raiders came out after half and sustained an 8 minute drive and then DW fumbles it back to them to eat more TOP. Hard for your offense to get anything going with one possession in the 3rd quarter.

People talk about all this talent around Plummer this year and I don't see it yet. JW is the best thing we have going. Rod looks slow and depleted anymore. I love the guy don't get me wrong. TB is making strides this year. But when the Oakland defense is giving up 155 yards a game and we cant convert a 3rd and two in crunch time, there are other problems besides your QB on the team.

[freak6]

Freak, how do you know Cutler (even with a simplified game plan) would not have thrown 4 or 5 picks in the last four games instead of the 2 Plummer has thrown over that span, possibly costing us a game? You have no idea.

I can't say anything is 100% in a hypothetical. But noone can. Is that the crux of your position, that the burden of proof is on me, and all I have to go on is that Cutler was the best QB in the entire league in the preseason?

I would add that in the last two game plans, Jake hasn't been asked to make any throw that Cutler can't. Cutler is more accurate than Jake as well, and on that pass to Javon that Plummer threw right to Rolle, I feel Cutler puts that ball in a spot where Javon would have had a chance if not been in position to make the catch.

I think with Cutler we beat the Rams too. Not that anyone thought Cutler should have started that game, I'm just saying.

[Steve Sewell]

Do we really know that Cutler can overcome his mistakes? Vandy won all of 13 games and 0 bowl games with him at the helm. I understand he had little to work with, but I'm not sure we have enough evidence that the above is true given the rarity of wins in Cutler's collegiate career.

All you need to know is that Vanderbilt doesn't even have an athletic department anymore. Their collegiate sports are all managed under the same umbrellas as other student activities. For Jay Cutler to win that many games at Vanderbilt, playing in the SEC, is a herculean effort all by itself. Vanderbilt is basically WAC talent playing against the best conference in college football.

From the Vandy film that I've seen, Cutler was Vandy and that was it. IMO, he's a very mentally tough person to compete the way he did with all the disadvantages that his football team had. He has also displayed a very strong and accurate arm needed in the pro game during the preseason. He can make the type of long, precision throws needed when a team is trying to come back. Again JMO.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

All you need to know is that Vanderbilt doesn't even have an athletic department anymore. Their collegiate sports are all managed under the same umbrellas as other student activities. .

Actually that is a new model that many universities, even those with major athletic success are examining. Wouldn't surprise me if in ten years half the universities in the country will consolidate their athletic departments.

[freak6]

Freak, I'm sure the fans would be more lenient (probably not the Plummer homers though...they'd want revenge), but think about the vets on a 5-1 team with SB aspirations and the pressure in the locker room. I have faith in Cutler, I'm just trying to imagine the type of pressure he'd be under internally and from the media (who LOVES a QB controversy).

Did you hear Lynch miked up talking to the Defense about turnovers, saying how the D needs to force more TOs than the Ravens D. They were basically saying it's out job to get the Offense back the ball. The D has experianced this all season. They'd rally around whoever is QBing the team, for the same reasons they rally around Plummer.

Which are they are seasoned vets hungry to finish the job they started in 2005. I will say that they would turn on the rookie sooner than Jake though. IMO the Rookie would've outplayed Plummer by a wide margin thus far.

For evidence, remember what Cutler did vs 1st string defenses in the preseason. Yeah, I know. But, keep in mind he was playing with all 2nd and 3rd stringers vs those 1st string defenses.

I saw him read blitzes and audible. I saw him stand in the pocket, I saw him run for a 1st down under pressure. I saw him thread the needle to TEs over and over. Cutler has ridiculous skills. To bad they are wasted on Sundays.

[Steve Sewell]

That's the point exactly. For me this isn't a Jake vs. Jay controversy. It's more about why the offense is being throttled down.

The other day Mike Bell and Darrent Williams were on the radio discussing the complexity of the offensive play calling. Neither of them could even repeat a call that would happen in the huddle. Bell said the running backs only listen for the keywords which mean something to them. He said the only position which need to understand the full call are the wide receivers. -- Even hinted that's one of the reasons Champ stopped asking to play offense. Too much time involved to learn the playbook.

So we hear how complicated the offense is and then you look at the Oakland game plan.

Is it, like some have speculated the purposely dumbing down due to the perception of a weak opponent so they don't put anything on game film?

Is it seeing how conservative an offense you can run and perhaps get away with putting a rookie in the lineup?

Is it Jake struggling during the week in practice?

Is it rotating in new guys on the offensive line?

Is it not having that punishing ground game?

Is it having new personnel in a key position like tight end?

Is it simply a new offensive coordinator trying to put his mark on the team?

All of these things? None of these things?

Only one of those questions involves Jake. The QB is always the lightning rod for the team. Too much praise when it's good, too much scorn when it's bad. I'm not convinced Plummer is the problem. Just another of the baffling symptoms nobody seems to be able to diagnose.

Javon and Rod seem to be pointing the finger at the coaching staff. Whether the coaching staff's philosophy is a by-product of Plummer's abilities/level of play remains to be seen. But my impression is that Javon and Rod seem to think that Plummer can do more if they allow him to. I really, REALLY hope the locker room doesn't get divided over this.

[RaiderH8r]

I think Shanny's purposely sitting on the playbook, not because he doesn't have faith in Jake, but he is keeping some things off of film. We've got some tough clubs coming after the Browns game. I get the distinct sense that Shanny is happy to go out, post a two posession lead and salt the game away from there, letting the D go to work. Watching the Oakland game it looked like he was content to run the preseason offense, get the win and get on to the next week. Shanny's got aces up his sleeve and he's not playing them until the hand is right. That's my sense, I mean the running game was almost exclusively vanilla and didn't spend much time (if any) running the off tackle zone plays, counters etc. The only wrinkles he tossed in were the end arounds to Walker, the play action end around and pass to Smith, and three bootlegs. Two of which were sniffed out by the backside after the a$$ chewing I'm sure they received after Jake put the deep one to Walker to set up the TD. It just looked vanilla, I could be wrong but I doubt it. Carry on.

[listopencil]

I mean, I think most people could at least agree that, overall, his regular season play as a Bronco has been solid, no? Hopefully, he'll get back to that. But once we go to Cutler, that's it, there's no turning back.

That's it in a nutshell. "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't".

[Steve Sewell]

Did you hear Lynch miked up talking to the Defense about turnovers, saying how the D needs to force more TOs than the Ravens D. They were basically saying it's out job to get the Offense back the ball. The D has experianced this all season. They'd rally around whoever is QBing the team, for the same reasons they rally around Plummer.

Which are they are seasoned vets hungry to finish the job they started in 2005. I will say that they would turn on the rookie sooner than Jake though. IMO the Rookie would've outplayed Plummer by a wide margin thus far.

For evidence, remember what Cutler did vs 1st string defenses in the preseason. Yeah, I know. But, keep in mind he was playing with all 2nd and 3rd stringers vs those 1st string defenses.

I saw him read blitzes and audible. I saw him stand in the pocket, I saw him run for a 1st down under pressure. I saw him thread the needle to TEs over and over. Cutler has ridiculous skills. To bad they are wasted on Sundays.

freak, the way you have responded to me recently is as if I'm a total Plummer homer...and I'm not. I'm a Bronco fan who wants to see the team win it all. I'm just trying to look at every angle of the situation in an objective manner. For all I know, you may be right...players want the best players to play because in the end it will help them and the team be more successful.

FWIW, I think this team would probably be better with Cutler under center at the moment. He'd have a solid running game and a great defense behind him, and he seems to be a pretty smart, resilient kid...in addition to his obvious physical abilities. If the staff is going to treat the QB position as a mere cog in the machine, why not replace the older, faulty cog with a brand new one? Preventative maintenance, right? We'll see how it plays out.

[freak6]

freak, the way you have responded to me recently is as if I'm a total Plummer homer...and I'm not.

If the staff is going to treat the QB position as a mere cog in the machine, why not replace the older, faulty cog with a brand new one? Preventative maintenance, right? We'll see how it plays out.

I wasn't trying to come at you like you were a Plummer homer. Great analogy Sewell.

I know it's bad when last night I actually had a dream where the Broncos jsut out and out CUT Jake Plummer, and we only had Cutler. Everyone at the press conference was like who is gonna back him up, but Shanahan wouldn't answer the question and the press conference ended. In the dream I was in shock like wtf happened, and wtf are we gonna do. Weird.

[55CrushEm]

Yeah but the revisionist historians(mostly media and Chump fans) nowadays claim that Shanahan is nothing without Elway, even though he sports a .650 winning percentage without him, which is one of the tops in the NFL over that time period.

I'll agree with you here.....the dolts that were clamoring for Shanahan to be fired, don't know how good we have it. He was and still is one of the best coaches in this league, and we're lucky to have him....

[watermock]

Actually Tred, we are giving up about 7.5 per game, not 9. That's great, but we can't keep counting on that. You could see the frustration on both the offense and defense Sunday night.

It's no matter, we shouldn't lose a game even when we give up 18 to St. Louis. If we can't consistently score at least 20 something has to be changed, and the obvious answer is to change the field general. Christ, they have radios into his head. He's not going out there alone. Rod would be in there is he gets confused. We have thingies call time outs.

It's time for Shanahan to stop turtling and thinking things will magically heal themselves and make a change. If Jay sucks, christ, put him back on the bench. I think he's at least worth a test drive at this point considering the performance of other rookie QB's.

[Popps]

freak, the way you have responded to me recently is as if I'm a total Plummer homer...and I'm not. I'm a Bronco fan .

The "Plummer homer" is for those truly devoid of an argument.... people like Beerslug who make comments like, "you and your Plummer threads."

Then, I point out to him that you'd have to go back 20 threads I'd created to even find a Plummer thread out of me, and even that one was a joke.
Naturally, he skipped right over that and went on with his bizarre rants.

But, if you are like me, and you believe that things other than the QB position have plagued this team over the past few years, you MUST be in love with Jake. See, you're dealing with people obsessed with making their argument "right," not people truly looking for an objective answer to a quandary.

Think of it like politics. Have you ever tried to talk reason to a hardcore Democrat or Republican? It's nearly impossible. It's like dealing with religious fanatics. They don't want to find truth, they want to make their position "right."

Your posts have been well thought out and comprehensive. That's just not going to fly around here.

Anyway, not sure what that kid posted about you. He's on ignore, of course. But, it's likely nonsense.

[BroncoInferno]

I can't say anything is 100% in a hypothetical. But noone can. Is that the crux of your position, that the burden of proof is on me, and all I have to go on is that Cutler was the best QB in the entire league in the preseason?

That's part of the argument, freak. You know as well as I do that looking like a God in the preseason means very little. He displayed undeniable talent, true, but he probably faced more complex defensive schemes against Florida while at Vandy than he did in the preseason. Preseason defenses show very little that is helpful in the regular season, as I would suspect you know.

I would add that in the last two game plans, Jake hasn't been asked to make any throw that Cutler can't. Cutler is more accurate than Jake as well, and on that pass to Javon that Plummer threw right to Rolle, I feel Cutler puts that ball in a spot where Javon would have had a chance if not been in position to make the catch.

I don't think it's a matter of what Cutler can do physically. Obviously, he's more talented than Plummer (and most QBs in the league, for that matter). Let's put it this way. Say it's the second half against Baltimore. We're plodding along fruitlessly in the same conservative scheme Shanny used with Plummer. Cutler gets frustrated and, having supreme confidence in his arm, trys to force a play downfield for a pick that costs us the game. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Jake has turned it over twice in the last four games. Are you really confident that a talented rookie might not have tried to force the action a few more times resulting in an extra couple of turnovers that might have cost us a ballgame or two? It's all hypothetical, sure, but we've seen this sort of senario time and time again with rookies, even rookies who end up being great QBs.

I think with Cutler we beat the Rams too. Not that anyone thought Cutler should have started that game, I'm just saying.

Not much to argue with here, except to say I disagree.

[Kaylore]

Is it, like some have speculated the purposely dumbing down due to the perception of a weak opponent so they don't put anything on game film?
I think we'll all agree that while you might save some things, to suggest you turn off your offense, especially against the hated Raiders, to "save plays" is stupid. They take these games one at a time and play who's in front of them.

Is it seeing how conservative an offense you can run and perhaps get away with putting a rookie in the lineup?

An interesting thought, but why do that and risk the season? I would think Shanahan would care more about winning than experimenting on different games.

Is it Jake struggling during the week in practice?
It could be any number of people struggling in practice I suppose.

Is it rotating in new guys on the offensive line?
I don't understand this one. Are you saying we are seeing if we could rotate new guys on the offensive line?

Is it not having that punishing ground game?
That doesn't make sense since we are leaning on the run game in critical situations more heavily than before. Also, consider that we are being effective at it with a top total rushing attack and towards the top of the league in yards per carry.

Is it having new personnel in a key position like tight end?
I think this "we have new people" argument is bogus. In our base formation we have two guys new to this offense in Walker and Scheffler. One of them has been the biggest contributor in the passing game and the other splits time with Alexander. That's not why we're doing what we're doing.

Is it simply a new offensive coordinator trying to put his mark on the team?
It's still Shanahan's offense. Heimerdinger likes to attack down field with bigger plays. I have to think a game called like it has been by someone with his philosophy on offense doesn't make any sense. It is the playcalling.


Only one of those questions involves Jake. The QB is always the lightning rod for the team. Too much praise when it's good, too much scorn when it's bad. I'm not convinced Plummer is the problem. Just another of the baffling symptoms nobody seems to be able to diagnose.
I agree that it's not all Jake's fault we aren't producing, but the question is whether he's not indirectly involved in the scale-down.

One thing we haven't considered is that we faced two teams that are top of the league in passing offense. Personally I thought it was because the Raiders are behind a lot and so get run at more than other teams and passed on less. That usually skews the stats. Is it possible that their pass defense is actually good and we were just encountering two solid pass defenses in row? I don't know...

[BroncoInSkinland]

Many of the arguments I have seen regarding putting Cutler in break down to:

A. The play calling is so simple a rookie could do it.
B. The play calling is so simple because the coaching staff has no confidence in Jake.
C. Therefore if Cutler were in our offense would be much better.

The problem with this is in order for our offense to be much better, we HAVE to open up the playbook. The conservative play calling we have seen is not a formula for an explosive offense, and if we open up the playbook, it sets up Cutler to make those rookie mistakes that many people accusing Jake of making. Now I like the way Cutler looks, but I also know he has to take a couple of lumps before he becomes the QB we all hope he will be.

There are essentially four options here:

1. Keep the status quo, it is winning us games.
2. Open up the playbook with Jake; either he pulls it off and we win, or he doesn't and we put in Cutler.
3. Put in Cutler and play conservatively.
4. Put in Cutler and open up the playbook.

I listed them in that order for a reason, because it is the progression we have to see. We (1) stick with the status quo until we lose, or get far behind in a game, then we (2) open up the playbook with Jake. If Jake can't handle it then we (3) put in Cutler and get a feel for what he can do. If he plays well we (4) open it up and really see what the kid has.

The problem is everyone wants to jump straight to step 4.

That being said I return you to my normal rant. The Jake issue has been discussed so much it is pointless to continue screaming about it from either side of the fence. As others have said, we should simply agree to disagree and move on.

[BroncoInferno]

All you need to know is that Vanderbilt doesn't even have an athletic department anymore. Their collegiate sports are all managed under the same umbrellas as other student activities. For Jay Cutler to win that many games at Vanderbilt, playing in the SEC, is a herculean effort all by itself. Vanderbilt is basically WAC talent playing against the best conference in college football.

From the Vandy film that I've seen, Cutler was Vandy and that was it. IMO, he's a very mentally tough person to compete the way he did with all the disadvantages that his football team had. He has also displayed a very strong and accurate arm needed in the pro game during the preseason. He can make the type of long, precision throws needed when a team is trying to come back. Again JMO.

That's all true, but my point was that with so few wins, it's hard to say how he'll overcome his mistakes on a consistent basis. I mean, most of the games in which he made a mistake resulted in the same thing as games where he didn't make a mistake...a loss for Vandy. I'm certainly not saying I blame him for that given his dreadful supporting cast; I'm just saying you can't really judge that aspect of his game by evaluating his collegiate career.

[Popps]

I think we'll all agree that while you might save some things, to suggest you turn off your offense, especially against the hated Raiders, to "save plays" is stupid. They take these games one at a time and play who's in front of them.

An interesting thought, but why do that and risk the season? I would think Shanahan would care more about winning than experimenting on different games.

It could be any number of people struggling in practice I suppose.


I don't understand this one. Are you saying we are seeing if we could rotate new guys on the offensive line?


That doesn't make sense since we are leaning on the run game in critical situations more heavily than before. Also, consider that we are being effective at it with a top total rushing attack and towards the top of the league in yards per carry.


I think this "we have new people" argument is bogus. In our base formation we have two guys new to this offense in Walker and Scheffler. One of them has been the biggest contributor in the passing game and the other splits time with Alexander. That's not why we're doing what we're doing.


It's still Shanahan's offense. Heimerdinger likes to attack down field with bigger plays. I have to think a game called like it has been by someone with his philosophy on offense doesn't make any sense. It is the playcalling.



I agree that it's not all Jake's fault we aren't producing, but the question is whether he's not indirectly involved in the scale-down.

One thing we haven't considered is that we faced two teams that are top of the league in passing offense. Personally I thought it was because the Raiders are behind a lot and so get run at more than other teams and passed on less. That usually skews the stats. Is it possible that their pass defense is actually good and we were just encountering two solid pass defenses in row? I don't know...


See, I wonder at what point we start to chalk up a little of this to a new O.C.? Now, the chimps are going to say "no dude, it's Plummer"... but QBs often struggle under new O.C.'s. Jake put up three seasons of very good numbers in this offense... record setting numbers, in some cases. Why would he suddenly just forget how to play?

I have no idea how to find a stat like this, but I'd love to know what the general offensive output is of offenses with new O.C.'s, compared to the prior year. Just speculating, but I'd bet we'd see a significant drop (as an average) across the board.


See, people want to talk about this "conservative" play-calling, but I just watched the first half again last night. It featured a pretty good balance of run/pass, multiple formations, a 50 bomb, an end around (that went for big yardage) some screens, a draw, etc.

Now, what exactly is do people want? Flea flickers on every play? I mean, that looks about like what we'd do in the first half of a game last year.

Again, Sapp catches that ball and we go into half-time with a 17-0 lead. Not a bad first half, eh?

The difference seems to be this year, for one... Plummer is getting heat much quicker than he did last year. Teams have figured out to blitz him so he can't get through his reads and I'm not sure our game-plan always accounts for that. Secondly, our guys look more "covered" than they have in the past, especially Rod. Jake overthrew Rod once when he was open in the first half, but outside of that... Rod really looked covered.

There's no chemistry with the kid tight end, yet. Don't know who's fault that is. Probably both.

So, there may be a few factors working at once, here. Plummer had a crappy first game, but has only thrown a couple of INTs in the other four games. That's not bad at all. But, we keep seeing him go through his reads and having to dump down to a RB. Now, maybe he's being a little careful, but that's what we want. We don't want him forcing passes.

I'm just saying, we're operating (in theory) the same way we were last year in regards to Jake. It's either that teams have figured us out a bit and we need do to some other things, or we're just not executing (overall) as an offense as well as we could. I don't think it's just one thing.

We have another "get-well" type game this week against a scrappy, but still pretty crappy team. Hopefully it'll come together so people can relax and actually enjoy winning, a bit.

[Rashomon]

Chris Mortensen in his chat today talked about Denver's offensive woes. He felt could be attributed to several factors: Playing great defenses, new personnel in key positions, and Jake Plummer is struggling. He said to give it a few weeks. I am starting to think that might be all the time that Plummer has left to get things figured out. If after the Steelers game the Broncos are 5-3, and the offense is still averaging around 12 ppg, Shanahan might bite the bullet and make a change at QB.

[Hulamau]

It's become a popular axiom to say, "If Jake is going to play like a rookie, why not play the rookie?"

Well, a couple reasons. For one thing, everyone seems so sure the problem is mainly Plummer. I'm not so sure. He hasn't looked good to be sure, but we've got a lot of new guys in the passing game. Scheffler, who is replacing Putz, is a rookie, so it really shouldn't be surprising that he has struggled so far. I think he'll be better than Putz in the long run, but in the here and now, I think you'd have to say that's a downgrade. Kircus looked great in the preseason, but how many preseason wonders have we seen over the years? He may just be another Todd Devoe. Marshall, another guy who we've expected big things from, is, like Sheffler, a rookie, and a rookie who missed a ton of valuable reps in the preseason with his injury. The pass protection from the OL has been a bit shaky. There are plenty of other factors going on here that would likely trouble Cutler as well.

Also, Jake has turned it over twice since the opener. Do we know that Cutler wouldn't have more TOs, even with a simplified gameplan? I'm not so sure. He's a gunslinger. Who's to say he wouldn't have forced the action into, say, four or five picks rather than two, maybe costing us a game somewhere?

The biggest reason, though, is the one Popps pointed out: how can Shanny go to the vets and say, "Look, I know you've won with Plummer; I know we're 4-1 now; I know no rookie has ever won the Super Bowl, but we're going to give the kid a shot"? You think the team would respond well to that? That kind of thing could--and likely would--divide the locker room a la 1999. Shanahan knows what he's doing here. Plummer is our best chance for 2006, all factors considered. With that said, I absolutely agree he's got to play better. I think he will. I mean, I think most people could at least agree that, overall, his regular season play as a Bronco has been solid, no? Hopefully, he'll get back to that. But once we go to Cutler, that's it, there's no turning back.

All of those reasons had merit at the beginning of the year, but now, as you imply, only the last one is really relevant.

Plummer isn't hitting veterans Rod or Alexander either for anything but 5 to 7 yards outs occasionally that Little Orphan Annie could throw.

I really think Shanny got gun shy with JAke after the bitter experience of the AFCC and then after a fresh start in camp and preseason with Walker and all the new talent here when they opened Jake up a bit more in the Rams game and Jake made some terrbile throws/decisions when we got behind.

I really think that experience just reinforced in Shanny his conviction that the only way to win with Jake is to take a couple of shots likethe 30 yard TD to Walker at NE and the 50 yarder this weekend, and hopefully get a lead then turn the game over to the defense and try to run out the clock, hopefully padding the lead a little as the game progresses.

Yes, Jake would have thrown more INTs if he had a freer rein, but he would have scored more TDs too. I think, though, that Jake's difficulties in coming from behind, that were so clearly articulated in that article two weeks ago, is foremost in Shanny's mind and he knows he has to play this hand out as long as he can ride it and then let the chips fall where they may.

Hey, maybe there is an outside chance we can eke our way into the SB with the O playing like this if the D plays lights out every game, doesnt get exhausted and has no injuries. Particularly, if our toughest competition has major injuries before our game, or just a bad hair day when we play them ... but its a HUGH long shot.

In any event, Shanny probably rightly feels his own hands are just as tightly tied as the rope he has around Jake's neck, and we are going to have to crash and burn a while before the coast will be clear enough in the lockerroom for him to be able to make the switch with full support from the team.

However, dynamics change like the weather in the NFL, and if we dont win at a bare minimum 3 out of the next 5 games, including at least two wins out of the Indy, Pittsburg and SD games, I think things will change very quickly.

[Tredici]

[QUOTE=freak6;1318336][QUOTE=Steve Sewell;1318310]I'm leaning towards the Cutler crew if we see another game like Oakland on Sunday.

However, has anyone ever considered the kind of pressure Cutler would feel if he was thrust into the starting role?

Freak, how do you know Cutler (even with a simplified game plan) would not have thrown 4 or 5 picks in the last four games instead of the 2 Plummer has thrown over that span, possibly costing us a game? You have no idea.

That's the problem when you just speculate about personnel, Inferno. How do you know 4 or 5 of those incompletions wouldn't have been completions if Cutler is throwing them? Thus sustaining the drives. Again, you have no idea.

I also have to mention the whole "Cutler never won anything in college mentality" that some have brought up. It makes me laugh because the last person I saw ranting about that was Terry Bradshaw. In regards to John Elway.

"John Elway never won anything in college and he's never going to win anything in the Pros".

(That's why it so sweet to see Mr. Bradshaw have to hand the Lombardi to John).

Personally I don't give a crap if it's Jake, Jay or even Bradlee back there for cripe's sake. I just want an offense. And it doesn't have to be a dazzling one. Grinding it out, keeping drives alive, keeping players like Manning on the bench is fine by me. Leave the vertical nonsense to the Fade. Look where it's gotten them....

[NodJello]

Good post except this is usually when they point to his wins and say we just need to be patient.

I'd like to point out that Plummer wasn't a winner before he came here and Shanahan was a winner without Plummer. Plummer is a winner because he's on a good team with a good coach.

I'd like to point out that Cutler still isn't a proven winner, we just all hope and pray he is.

[Clockwork Orange]

Personally I don't give a crap if it's Jake, Jay or even Bradlee back there for cripe's sake. I just want an offense. And it doesn't have to be a dazzling one. Grinding it out, keeping drives alive, keeping players like Manning on the bench is fine by me. Leave the vertical nonsense to the Fade. Look where it's gotten them....

I couldn't agree more. This Martyball BS is for the birds.

Either trust Plummer enough to run the offense or go to the bullpen.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I couldn't agree more. This Martyball BS is for the birds.
Either trust Plummer enough to run the offense or go to the bullpen.

My sentiment as well.

[Hulamau]

There are essentially four options here:

1. Keep the status quo, it is winning us games.
2. Open up the playbook with Jake; either he pulls it off and we win, or he doesn't and we put in Cutler.
3. Put in Cutler and play conservatively.
4. Put in Cutler and open up the playbook.

I listed them in that order for a reason, because it is the progression we have to see. We (1) stick with the status quo until we lose, or get far behind in a game, then we (2) open up the playbook with Jake. If Jake can't handle it then we (3) put in Cutler and get a feel for what he can do. If he plays well we (4) open it up and really see what the kid has.

The problem is everyone wants to jump straight to step 4....



Good post BIS,

And that is the progession things will likely take, and we should be on step 2 from here on out ... loosening the reins a bit and see if that kick starts Jake and the offense against Cleveland and not necessarily wait until we are down two TDs against Indy, the Steelers or Chargers before asking Jake to do something he's never been able to pull off here.

IF Jake suddenly wakes up then Hallelujah, the issue will die down on it's own, but if not, we will likely go to step 3 fairly quickly on the way to step 4. :-)

[Tredici]

I'd like to point out that Cutler still isn't a proven winner, we just all hope and pray he is.


Did you just hope and pray when Elway came out of college? Or did you think his skills would translate to the pros? (I'm asking that out of curiousity not sarcasm.)

[Clockwork Orange]

There are essentially four options here:

1. Keep the status quo, it is winning us games.
2. Open up the playbook with Jake; either he pulls it off and we win, or he doesn't and we put in Cutler.
3. Put in Cutler and play conservatively.
4. Put in Cutler and open up the playbook.

I'm for going with option 2 and if that doesn't work, go to option 4.

Either way, let the QB (whoever it may be) go out there and try to make plays.

[Meck77]

I'd like to point out that Cutler still isn't a proven winner, we just all hope and pray he is.

You can't break it down any clearer than that. If I'm shanny I open up the playbook to get everyone off his back and smash the Browns in the first half. Then I bring in Cutler in the second to get him some playing time. We all know that Jake isn't going to like getting benched for poor play but he'll glady take a seat in the second half if he leads the team to a let's say 24-3 or so halftime score.

Jake can flip off Browns fans in the second half and the kid gets to touch the pigskin for the first time in a real game and we can get our first glimpse of the kid who is supposed to deliver Denver a lombardi trophy. This is the only way I can think of keeping both players happy and making a smooth gradual transition rather than just throwing Jay to the dog pound.

Either way I expect a pretty hostile crowd to show up in Cleveland and the revenge factor is inplace. Even their sorry ass season isn't going to stop the Browns fans from litterally throwing everything they have at us.

Go Broncos!

[freak6]

I'm for going with option 2 and if that doesn't work, go to option 4.

Either way, let the QB (whoever it may be) go out there and try to make plays.

Open up the playbook via 2005 though, not 2004.

[freak6]

Jake can flip off Browns fans in the second half and the kid gets to touch the pigskin for the first time in a real game.



I wish, that'd be funny as hell.

[Taco John]

See, I wonder at what point we start to chalk up a little of this to a new O.C.? Now, the chimps are going to say "no dude, it's Plummer"... but QBs often struggle under new O.C.'s. Jake put up three seasons of very good numbers in this offense... record setting numbers, in some cases. Why would he suddenly just forget how to play?

I have no idea how to find a stat like this, but I'd love to know what the general offensive output is of offenses with new O.C.'s, compared to the prior year. Just speculating, but I'd bet we'd see a significant drop (as an average) across the board.


Here is what Shanahan has to say about it:

On whether being without former offensive coordinator Gary Kubiak has required an adjustment period
“Since I’m involved with that, it’s the same thing as before. It’s always tough to lose coaches, especially great coaches like Gary. But I think Mike [Heimerdinger] has done a great job. I’m still involved. Rick Dennison, our offensive line coach, is here. Bobby Turner is here. Last year, we started off slow for some reason.


On if there is any correlation between the loss of Offensive Coordinator Gary Kubiak and the offense’s performance so far this season
“Gary is a great coach and it is always tough when you lose coaches, there is no question about it. We are doing the same things that we have been doing. (Offensive Coordinator) Rick Dennison and most of the coaches are here, Mike Heimerdinger is familiar with our system and we have been through this before. Our running game went down one year and it was because Alex Gibbs wasn’t here then all of a sudden it was because our receivers weren’t as good because (Assistant Head Coach) Mike Heimerdinger wasn’t here. It is just the nature of it. What we have to do is correct the little things and we are capable of doing that and hopefully we will get it going here in the near future.”

On if the play calling has changed from last season
“It is the same offense. There is no question about it. We will get better. Sometimes you go through some tough times. A play here, a play there. Just like in this game it was a play here and a play there. All of sudden you are saying, hey gosh darn it. ”






Again, Sapp catches that ball and we go into half-time with a 17-0 lead. Not a bad first half, eh?


I'll add that you dismiss the argument that "IF" Plummer can drive the team to a touchdown at the end of the first half of the AFC Championship game, we'd be within 7 points of the Steelers going into the half. I think it's inconsistent of you to bring up what would happen if Sapp catches that ball, just because it puts Plummer in a better light, though I agree with the take. I just don't think you can be picky about which "if" scenarios can be applicable, and which ones cant.



I'm just saying, we're operating (in theory) the same way we were last year in regards to Jake. It's either that teams have figured us out a bit and we need do to some other things, or we're just not executing (overall) as an offense as well as we could. I don't think it's just one thing.

On if he thinks QB Jake Plummer is having a slow start this season
“I don’t know. Why did he start slow last year? If I did know I would have corrected it. Obviously I don’t know the answer.”

[Clockwork Orange]

Open up the playbook via 2005 though, not 2004.

Whatever works, just open it up.

I want to stress that should Cutler be brought in, I don't want it to be in this painfully diluted offense. Let the kid go out there and let 'er rip. Let him use his mobility and his rocket arm. Let him make plays, that's what he was drafted for. Using Cutler as a game manager just seems as though it'd be such a waste of his physical talents.

There, happy now, TJ? :)

[Taco John]

Whatever works, just open it up.

I want to stress that should Cutler be brought in, I don't want it to be in this painfully diluted offense. Let the kid go out there and let 'er rip. Let him use his mobility and his rocket arm. Let him make plays, that's what he was drafted for. Using Cutler as a game manager just seems as though it'd be such a waste of his physical talents.

There, happy now, TJ? :)


I agree to a point. I think there's something said for letting the kid walk before he runs. The last thing I want to see is his confidence shaken due to biting off more than he can chew out the gates... I'm all for seeing a real offense. Whether that's opening it up for Jake, or putting Cutler in and working each week towards the full meal deal, I don't care. I don't think we're going to win many playoff games using the offense that we're running now, and I worry about the longevity of our defense having so much pressure put on them down the stretch. We've been real lucky as far as injuries go this season.

[Mile High Mojoe]

At halftime of the Sunday night game I said to a Buddy - if the staff doesn't trust Plummer to do more than this gameplan, they might as well bench him. In a dicussion with Alec he mentioned Plummer played fine in the first half but Shanahan throttled him in the second half. I pulled out all the plays Plummer himself was part of. I don't see it. Outside of the long pass there is virtually no difference. I felt Jake was handcuffed right from the beginning. Apparently thinking that translates into me fawning over Cutler. I've never advocated putting in Cutler. I have expressed frustration with some of Jake's play and I have said he is capable of better. I don't think I would've even thought about this without the rudeness of our boy Alec, but for those of you thinking Plummer is piling up the W's - look at these playcalls and then answer the question at the bottom.


J.Plummer pass short middle to T.Bell to DEN 19 for -1 yards
J.Plummer pass short left to T.Bell to DEN 40 for 16 yards
J.Plummer pass short left to T.Bell to DEN 36 for -4 yards
J.Plummer scrambles up the middle to OAK 48 for 11 yards
J.Plummer pass short right to C.Sapp to OAK 44 for 2 yards
J.Plummer pass incomplete deep middle to J.Walker

J.Plummer pass deep middle to J.Walker to OAK 2 for 54 yards

J.Plummer pass incomplete short left to S.Alexander
J.Plummer pass short left to J.Walker to 50 for 5 yards
J.Plummer pass incomplete short left to R.Smith
J.Plummer sacked at OAK 33 for -2 yards

J.Plummer pass short right to T.Bell to OAK 24 for no gain
J.Plummer pass incomplete short right to C.Sapp

J.Plummer up the middle to DEN 2 for 1 yard
J.Plummer right guard to DEN 3 for 1 yard

J.Plummer pass incomplete short middle to T.Scheffler
J.Plummer pass short right to C.Sapp pushed ob at DEN 20 for 2 yards
J.Plummer pass incomplete short middle to T.Bell.

J.Plummer pass short right to R.Smith to DEN 32 for 12 yards
J.Plummer pass short middle to J.Walker to DEN 40 for 6 yards

J.Plummer pass incomplete short right to J.Walker
J.Plummer sacked at DEN 35 for -9 yards

J.Plummer pass short left to J.Walker to DEN 29 for 10 yards
J.Plummer left end to OAK 19 for 19 yards
J.Plummer kneels to OAK 20 for -1 yards.
J.Plummer kneels to OAK 21 for -1 yards.

Why couldn't a rookie execute that game plan???? What's so fkn complicated about producing that W?

And for the record I like winning, too. I do not know what is going on with the offensive play calling.

I do know allowing an average of 9 points a game means even Ryan Leaf might be able to notch a win.

Each week I turn on the game anticipating the return of the offense. Right now I'm hoping it's against Cleveland. And I'd prefer seeing it happen with Jake under center. I'm just starting to wonder if it matters.

That's cool to see you posted the plays Jake was involved in. In the tread I started yesterday I said that Shanny has taken the game out of Plummer's hands too. He clearly has lost confidence in him. Jake wears his lack of confidence on his sleeve and it shows. You put those 2 together and Shanny takes the conservative approach. In some ways I understand it, Jake hasn't delivered but the Raiders were a prime team for Jake to get well against.

I hope Shanny isn't sandbagging until the Colts game. If Jake can't get it done against the lowly Raiders how can he expect Jake to some how snap out of it against the Colts? Jake needs a good game against the Browns, if he doesn't have one I'd take the Colts +21 in week 8.

[Meck77]

I just don't think you can be picky about which "if" scenarios can be applicable, and which ones cant.


.”

Finally something we agree on. "If" is BS. A football game is what it is. You can't change anything that happens on the field. All you can do is learn from mistakes and make adjustments for the next game.

Here are a few "Ifs" I can be certain of.

"If" we win by more than 1 point vs the Browns we get a "W" in the win column and this place will be a cluster ****.

"If" we win by more than 20 points we get a "W" in the win column and this place will be a cluster ****.

"If" we lose this place will be a cluster ****.Ha!

I really don't care how many points we win by as long as we get a W. I'd be thrilled to death with another 13-3 victory. I really would and I wouldn't even second guess what is going on in Shanny's mind. Grind it out, smash em in the mouth and slap up a TD and a couple fgs. Works for me as long as Cleveland doesn't show us any more on offense than the raiders did. If they do open up the book takes some shots down the field and get Javon the ball for an extra TD to get us above 20 pts if we need it.

Simple enough.

[Clockwork Orange]

I agree to a point. I think there's something said for letting the kid walk before he runs. The last thing I want to see is his confidence shaken due to biting off more than he can chew out the gates... I'm all for seeing a real offense. Whether that's opening it up for Jake, or putting Cutler in and working each week towards the full meal deal, I don't care. I don't think we're going to win many playoff games using the offense that we're running now, and I worry about the longevity of our defense having so much pressure put on them down the stretch. We've been real lucky as far as injuries go this season.

I honestly don't see confidence being an issue with Cutler. With a lot of rookie QB's I'd agree, but this kid seems so calm and even-keeled that he doesn't appear to get too high or too low regardless of what's going on. Go back to the preseason game in Arizona. He throws an 83 yard TD, the look on his face barely changed. He throws an INT returned for a TD, the look on his face didn't change at all. He throws a TD on the very next drive, his face didn't change at all. He just seems to have the right mindset already.

I'm in favor of taking the bad with the good. I'll deal with some mistakes if it gives the team a shot at making some big plays. Anything is better than the football equivalent of the Chinese Water Torture that we saw on Sunday.

[BroncoBuff]

I'd like to point out that Plummer wasn't a winner before he came here and Shanahan was a winner without Plummer. Plummer is a winner because he's on a good team with a good coach.

You just made an argument to start Cutler ...

[Rohirrim]

I'm in favor of taking the bad with the good. I'll deal with some mistakes if it gives the team a shot at making some big plays. Anything is better than the football equivalent of the Chinese Water Torture that we saw on Sunday.
LOL "Chinese Water Torture" I think waterboarding is legal now? ;D

[freak6]

I want to stress that should Cutler be brought in, I don't want it to be in this painfully diluted offense. Let the kid go out there and let 'er rip. Let him use his mobility and his rocket arm. Let him make plays, that's what he was drafted for. Using Cutler as a game manager just seems as though it'd be such a waste of his physical talents.


Absolutely. Cutler's poise is unbelievable. Watch his mechanics on throws. He has a quick release, and rarely even steps into this throws from the pocket. He did have a tendancy to stare down recievers a bit, but just imagine what he could do with our 1st team offense.

[freak6]

LOL "Chinese Water Torture" I think waterboarding is legal now? ;D

Ro - Are you out of your mind. I succinctly remember Emperor Bush say, "The United States does not torture".

"We know where the WMDS are, they are North of Bagdhad, and south, and east, and west of Bagdhad"

"Iraq has tried to obtain yellowcake to reconstitute it's Nuclear program"

"The intelligence is being fixed around the policy"

USA!!! USA!!! USA!!!

If we piss away the best defense in the NFL with the worst offense in the NFL, that will be torture, and Shanahan should be sent to Gitmo.

[Northman]

Absolutely. Cutler's poise is unbelievable. Watch his mechanics on throws. He has a quick release, and rarely even steps into this throws from the pocket. He did have a tendancy to stare down recievers a bit, but just imagine what he could do with our 1st team offense.



Rookies cant win in this league just ask Vince Young. Ok, they cant play very well either in fact in the last two games a Rookie would have a lesser pass percentage than Jake just ask Matt Leinart. Oooooops.

[elsid13]

Or maybe the prime receiver WASN'T OPEN, and he checked down, but the Jake haters don't think he can see beyond one receiver.

And some people talk about "so and so was wide open on that play, Jake was afraid to throw it to him . . ." without considering that what we can see on TV (on the replay no less) does not translate to what the QB can see with 9 to 12 guys in front of him. A QB needs throwing lanes and sight lines to see an open receiver.

When I made that post at 550 in morning wasn't meant to be taken one way or another. It was a simple Plummer decided for whatever reason the prime wasn't open and decided to check down. People in general are getting overly excited about this issue, and if post doesn't read like they think it should are going on the warpath on both side of the debate. Everybody needs to relax it internet message board.

[-Slap-]

Here is what Shanahan has to say about it:

On whether being without former offensive coordinator Gary Kubiak has required an adjustment period
“Since I’m involved with that, it’s the same thing as before. It’s always tough to lose coaches, especially great coaches like Gary. But I think Mike [Heimerdinger] has done a great job. I’m still involved. Rick Dennison, our offensive line coach, is here. Bobby Turner is here. Last year, we started off slow for some reason.


On if there is any correlation between the loss of Offensive Coordinator Gary Kubiak and the offense’s performance so far this season
“Gary is a great coach and it is always tough when you lose coaches, there is no question about it. We are doing the same things that we have been doing. (Offensive Coordinator) Rick Dennison and most of the coaches are here, Mike Heimerdinger is familiar with our system and we have been through this before. Our running game went down one year and it was because Alex Gibbs wasn’t here then all of a sudden it was because our receivers weren’t as good because (Assistant Head Coach) Mike Heimerdinger wasn’t here. It is just the nature of it. What we have to do is correct the little things and we are capable of doing that and hopefully we will get it going here in the near future.”

On if the play calling has changed from last season
“It is the same offense. There is no question about it. We will get better. Sometimes you go through some tough times. A play here, a play there. Just like in this game it was a play here and a play there. All of sudden you are saying, hey gosh darn it. ”

What Shanahan isn't considering is Kubiak is better than him at developing quarterbacks.

[BroncoInferno]

That's the problem when you just speculate about personnel, Inferno. How do you know 4 or 5 of those incompletions wouldn't have been completions if Cutler is throwing them? Thus sustaining the drives. Again, you have no idea.

Nope, you're right, I don't know. However, I have football history as a guide, and my senario is by far the more likely when dealing with a rookie QB. Might Cutler be a Marino type? Maybe. Probably not. And in saying "probably not," I don't mean in the sense that he won't eventually be great, but it almost never happens for QBs right away. I don't know, sure; but I can make a pretty safe guess.

I also have to mention the whole "Cutler never won anything in college mentality" that some have brought up. It makes me laugh because the last person I saw ranting about that was Terry Bradshaw. In regards to John Elway.

It's a valid point to bring up. We don't know how he'd handle playoff atmosphere type pressure because he's simply never experienced that kind of pressure. That certainly doesn't mean he can't handle it (my guess is he'll probably be able to--eventually), but it is definately a fair issue to raise.

Personally I don't give a crap if it's Jake, Jay or even Bradlee back there for cripe's sake. I just want an offense. And it doesn't have to be a dazzling one. Grinding it out, keeping drives alive, keeping players like Manning on the bench is fine by me. Leave the vertical nonsense to the Fade. Look where it's gotten them....

Here we agree. If Shanny has in fact lost confidence in Plummer to run the offense, he might as well make the switch.

[BroncoInferno]

What Shanahan isn't considering is Kubiak is better than him at developing quarterbacks.

On what are you basing this, Slap? I agree that Kubiak was a vastly underappreciated coach in Denver (when things were going bad on offense it was usually Kubiak getting blamed; when things were going well it was because of Shanny's genius), but the only QBs Kubiak has coached (until now) have been as a coach on Shanny's staff. How can you say with any certainity which coach gets the most credit for QB development? Kubiak has no track record of successful QB development independent of Shanahan. That doesn't mean he isn't a better QB coach than Shanny; I just don't see the evidence.

[maven]

After pouring through the data and calculating the numbers, I feel the Denver Broncos should start Jay Cutler.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

The "Plummer homer" is for those truly devoid of an argument.... people like Beerslug who make comments like, "you and your Plummer threads."

LOL
Beautiful!!! Just exactly what is your Plummer homer argument? You're all over the map, and how did that "Coyer basically sucks" argument work out for you?

Though your obsession with me is a little freaky http://www.digital-inn.de/images/smilies/anims/7.gif

[Taco John]

The "Plummer homer" is for those truly devoid of an argument.... people like Beerslug who make comments like, "you and your Plummer threads."




Clockwork isn't going to be happy to get called out like this.

[Clockwork Orange]

Clockwork isn't going to be happy to get called out like this.

You're not as good at pushing buttons as Popps is.

[baja]

That's the point exactly. For me this isn't a Jake vs. Jay controversy. It's more about why the offense is being throttled down.

The other day Mike Bell and Darrent Williams were on the radio discussing the complexity of the offensive play calling. Neither of them could even repeat a call that would happen in the huddle. Bell said the running backs only listen for the keywords which mean something to them. He said the only position which need to understand the full call are the wide receivers. -- Even hinted that's one of the reasons Champ stopped asking to play offense. Too much time involved to learn the playbook.

So we hear how complicated the offense is and then you look at the Oakland game plan.

Is it, like some have speculated the purposely dumbing down due to the perception of a weak opponent so they don't put anything on game film?

Is it seeing how conservative an offense you can run and perhaps get away with putting a rookie in the lineup?

Is it Jake struggling during the week in practice?

Is it rotating in new guys on the offensive line?

Is it not having that punishing ground game?

Is it having new personnel in a key position like tight end?

Is it simply a new offensive coordinator trying to put his mark on the team?

All of these things? None of these things?

Only one of those questions involves Jake. The QB is always the lightning rod for the team. Too much praise when it's good, too much scorn when it's bad. I'm not convinced Plummer is the problem. Just another of the baffling symptoms nobody seems to be able to diagnose.

here's another possibility. Shanahan is chomping at the bit to start his new toy Jay Cutler (I'm glad he has an easy & short name because we are going to be typing it a lot for the next 15 or so years) Jake is so popular with the players that to start Jay without good cause would blow up in Shanny's face so he has to install a game plan that doesn't make plummer look great but one good enough that we do not lose either. maybe that is why Jake hardly ever rolls out which he clearly excels at. He has been turned into a pocket passer something cutler will shine at. This is designed to make the players lose confidence in Plummer so that Shanny at some point can start Jay without a locker room revolt.<b> He is showing the team with play on the field why Cutler should start.</b>

[Hulamau]

Whatever works, just open it up.

I want to stress that should Cutler be brought in, I don't want it to be in this painfully diluted offense. Let the kid go out there and let 'er rip. Let him use his mobility and his rocket arm. Let him make plays, that's what he was drafted for. Using Cutler as a game manager just seems as though it'd be such a waste of his physical talents.

There, happy now, TJ? :)

I totally agree CO, though Shanny will likely start him off relatively slow. Even Shanny has to get use to calling plays again for a full-featured QB... its been eight years since he's had the priviledge, and even 'masterminds' can get conditioned and in a rut by having to micro-manage QBs with fundamental limitations.

We will likely witness a rebirth of Shanahan as well as a resurrection of our league leading offense of the late 90s. But it wont happen overnight.

The issue isnt, as some have stated, that Cutler might actually throw a an INT or two so why risk putting him in, its that as long as we are limited to playing this high school crap with the way they are playing Jake, lets at least make best use of our precious time and use the rest of this year to get Cutler and the offense firing on all cylinders. Its not at all giving up on this year by any means, but simply recognizing the reality that we arent going to win the Super bowl with a bottom 3 ranking Offense no matter how well our D is playing.

Ergo, while it may not be exactly fair to Jake (however, he has had 4 years and every opportunity), the cold hard truth is that UNLESS Jake makes it to and wins the Super Bowl we, as a club, would be FAR better off not wasting the rest of this year ekeing out just enough wins to secure a poor set of draft picks while postponing the maturation of Cutler by that much longer!

Cutler is going to make mistakes, but they will be 'learning' mistakes and not due to having reached the peak of his talent.

The last thing I worry about is his confidence as well, that was the single biggest trait Shanny drafted him for. You cant play for Vandy against the SEC and win the conference MVP if you have anything but iron clad confidence, poise and moxie.

I recall Champ said the thing that struck him most when Cutler came to training camp, in addition to hearing that sizzle on his rocket passes, was that he absolutely isn't fazed by throwing an INT... he simply comes right back and makes a big play". Just like we saw in Arizona!

Champ also said: "that is very rare ... most QBs, even many veterans, tighten up a little or even go into the tank after a big mistake in both practice and in games and this rookie just doesn't do that".

Who cares if he throws a few INTs, he'll quickly learn what he can and can't get away with and will more than make up for most of them in the meantime.

[Clockwork Orange]

I totally agree CO, though Shanny will likely start him off relatively slow. Even Shanny has to get use to calling plays again for a full-featured QB... its been eight years since he's had the priviledge, and even 'masterminds' can get conditioned by having to micro-manage QBs with fundamental limitations.

We will likely witness a rebirth of Shanahan as well as a resurrection of our league leading offense of the late 90s. But it wont happen overnight.

The issue isnt, as some have stated, that Cutler might actually throw a an INT or two so why risk putting him in, its that as long as we are limited to playing this high school crap with the way they are playing Jake, lets at least make best use of our precious time and use the rest of this year to get Cutler and the offense firing on all cylinders. Its not at all giving up on this year by any means, but simply recognizing the reality that we arent going to win the Super bowl with a bottom 3 ranking Offense no matter how well our D is playing.

Ergo, while it may not be exactly fair to Jake (however, he has had 4 years and every opportunity), the cold hard truth is that UNLESS Jake makes it to and wins the Super Bowl we, as a club, would be FAR better off not wasting the rest of this year ekeing out just enough wins to secure a poor set of draft picks while postponing the maturation of Cutler by that much longer!

Cutler is going to make mistakes, but they will be 'learning' mistakes and not due to having reached the peak of his talent.

The last thing I worry about is his confidence as well, that was the single biggest trait Shanny drafted him for. You cant play for Vandy against the SEC and win the conference MVP if you have anything but iron clad confidence, poise and moxie.

I recall Champ said the thing that struck him most when Cutler came to training camp, in addition to hearing that sizzle on his rocket passes, was that he absolutely isn't fazed by throwing an INT... he simply comes right back and makes a big play". Just like we saw in Arizona!

Champ also said: "that is very rare ... most QBs, even many veterans, tighten up a little or even go into the tank after a big mistake in both practice and in games and this rookie just doesn't do that".

Who cares if he throws a few INTs, he'll quickly learn what he can and can't get away with and will more than make up for most of them in the meantime.

If Cutler is put in as the starter this season, I certainly don't expect him to come out and set the world on fire right off the hop. He doesn't know the entire offense yet and he doesn't have any real chemistry with the first teamers aside from Scheffler. I know he'll make mistakes, but I think the kid's got the mental makeup to keep from getting too rattled by it. At least that's what he's shown thus far, I could be dead wrong on that.

It just wouldn't make any sense to bring him in and then basically take the ball out of his hands the way they have with Plummer.

[Hulamau]

If Cutler is put in as the starter this season, I certainly don't expect him to come out and set the world on fire right off the hop. He doesn't know the entire offense yet and he doesn't have any real chemistry with the first teamers aside from Scheffler. I know he'll make mistakes, but I think the kid's got the mental makeup to keep from getting too rattled by it. At least that's what he's shown thus far, I could be dead wrong on that.

It just wouldn't make any sense to bring him in and then basically take the ball out of his hands the way they have with Plummer.

True enough!

[BroncoInSkinland]

...maybe that is why Jake hardly ever rolls out which he clearly excels at. He has been turned into a pocket passer something cutler will shine at.

There is another posibility, and one that I hadn't considered til now, maybe Shanahan is setting up the offense for Cutlers style of play. Walking into an offense that has been specifically tailored towards your unique abilities and talents with several games experience in playing precisely that way would be very nice.

[Clockwork Orange]

There is another posibility, and one that I hadn't considered til now, maybe Shanahan is setting up the offense for Cutlers style of play. Walking into an offense that has been specifically tailored towards your unique abilities and talents with several games experience in playing precisely that way would be very nice.

Cutler can pass from the pocket as well as roll out. Remember, he was recruited to Vandy as an option QB, so he's got the wheels for it.

It's like Shanahan said after he drafted him, the entire playbook is coming back with the arrival of Cutler. It's been a long time coming. :)

[Tredici]

On what are you basing this, Slap? I agree that Kubiak was a vastly underappreciated coach in Denver (when things were going bad on offense it was usually Kubiak getting blamed; when things were going well it was because of Shanny's genius), but the only QBs Kubiak has coached (until now) have been as a coach on Shanny's staff. How can you say with any certainity which coach gets the most credit for QB development? Kubiak has no track record of successful QB development independent of Shanahan. That doesn't mean he isn't a better QB coach than Shanny; I just don't see the evidence.

Kubiak does have a successful record. And he continues in that success:

2005 -- Check Jake Plummer. Check David Carr

1 Peyton Manning IND 3747 453 305 28 10 80 104.1
2 Carson Palmer CIN 3836 509 345 32 12 70 101.1
3 Ben Roethlisberger PIT 2385 268 168 17 9 85 98.6
4 Matt Hasselbeck SEA 3459 449 294 24 9 56 98.2
5 Marc Bulger STL 2297 287 192 14 9 57 94.4
6 Tom Brady NE 4110 530 334 26 14 71 92.3
7 Jake Plummer DEN 3366 456 277 18 7 72 90.2
8 Trent Green KC 4014 507 317 17 10 60 90.1
9 Byron Leftwich JAC 2123 302 175 15 5 45 89.3
10 Drew Brees SD 3576 500 323 24 15 54 89.2
11 Brad Johnson MIN 1885 294 184 12 4 80 88.9
12 Jake Delhomme CAR 3421 435 262 24 16 80 88.1
13 Mark Brunell WAS 3050 454 262 23 10 78 85.9
14 Kurt Warner ARI 2713 375 242 11 9 63 85.8
15 Kelly Holcomb BUF 1509 230 155 10 8 65 85.6
16 Donovan McNabb PHI 2507 357 211 16 9 91 85.0
17 Drew Bledsoe DAL 3639 499 300 23 17 71 83.7
18 Steve McNair TEN 3161 476 292 16 11 57 82.4
19 Chris Simms TB 2035 313 191 10 7 78 81.4
20 Kerry Collins OAK 3759 565 302 20 12 79 77.3
21 David Carr HOU 2488 423 256 14 11 53 77.2
22 Trent Dilfer CLE 2321 333 199 11 12 80 76.9
23 Eli Manning NYG 3762 557 294 24 17 78 75.9
24 Josh McCown ARI 1836 270 163 9 11 49 74.9
25 Michael Vick ATL 2412 387 214 15 13 58 73.1
26 Brooks Bollinger NYJ 1558 266 150 7 6 60 72.9
27 Joey Harrington DET 2021 330 188 12 12 86 72.0
28 Gus Frerotte MIA 2996 494 257 18 13 60 71.9
29 Kyle Boller BAL 1799 293 171 11 12 47 71.8
30 Anthony Wright BAL 1582 266 164 6 9 48 71.7

2006 Check David Carr. You can try Jake Plummer but his rating is so low it's not on the chart.

1 Donovan McNabb PHI 1849 208 122 13 2 87 104.8
2 Philip Rivers SD 1064 144 99 7 2 57 100.6
3 Marc Bulger STL 1619 208 128 10 1 67 99.8
4 Peyton Manning IND 1278 171 106 8 2 41 95.6
5 David Carr HOU 993 138 96 7 4 53 94.9
6 Damon Huard KC 931 136 89 5 1 78 94.3
7 Drew Brees NO 1509 207 138 8 4 86 92.8
8 Eli Manning NYG 1329 176 115 11 7 46 92.3
9 Chad Pennington NYJ 1261 168 109 8 5 71 90.9
10 Carson Palmer CIN 1178 157 99 7 4 51 90.1
11 Mark Brunell WAS 1239 169 105 5 3 74 86.9
12 Alex Smith SF 1285 183 109 8 4 75 86.4
13 Matt Leinart ARI 539 86 52 4 2 49 84.4
14 Bruce Gradkowski TB 429 81 47 4 1 52 83.8
15 Jake Delhomme CAR 1343 205 123 6 3 72 83.0
16 Tom Brady NE 1031 162 88 8 3 35 82.6
17 Matt Hasselbeck SEA 1122 159 96 9 7 49 82.3
18 Rex Grossman CHI 1391 189 107 10 7 62 82.1
19 Byron Leftwich JAC 1034 155 94 7 5 51 82.0
20 Kurt Warner ARI 916 123 77 5 5 54 81.9
21 J.P. Losman BUF 1121 172 106 6 5 51 80.1
22 Jon Kitna DET 1584 228 145 6 7 42 80.0
23 Brad Johnson MIN 1128 170 107 3 4 46 78.3
24 Daunte Culpepper MIA 929 134 81 2 3 52 77.0
25 Brett Favre GB 1275 203 115 7 5 75 76.7
26 Drew Bledsoe DAL 1053 157 83 7 7 51 70.4
27 Charlie Frye CLE 1039 168 105 5 9 75 67.5
28 Michael Vick ATL 676 117 59 3 3 51 66.0
29 Steve McNair BAL 915 169 95 5 7 38 64.1
30 Joey Harrington MIA 498 84 53 1 4 25 63.5

Most NFL people credit Kubiak with being a great QB Coach. Some of Elway's better years came under Gary's direction.

[Bronco Billy]

Most NFL people credit Kubiak with being a great QB Coach. Some of Elway's better years came under Gary's direction.

Agree, but I think there's more to it than just Kubiak. Any QB should have a better season with Shanny than Reeves.

[listopencil]

"Sometimes a lineman will make a mistake, sometimes a wide receiver will make a mistake, a quarterback will make a mistake," Shanahan said. "But as a group, to make an offense work, it's the whole group. And all the pressure will go to the quarterback because most people don't understand who broke down.

[Tredici]

Agree, but I think there's more to it than just Kubiak. Any QB should have a better season with Shanny than Reeves.

Also agree. Shanahan runs a wide open offense. -- Well, usually. But there is something to be said about how a QB can perform in the offense. Even vets often need work with timing, footwork, reads, etc.

Gary Kubiak readily admitted he was a capable backup. Not because he had the physical tools, but he had the mental ones. He was a student of the game. So when he did have to get behind center he understood the playbook, the gameplan and the execution.

I remember when Jake Plummer was a commodity. Most NFL pundits I heard or read urged him go with the Shanahan/Kubiak combination if he wanted a chance to revive his career.

I've often thought the team would miss Kubiak's demeanor. I've heard Heimerdinger tends to be as volitile as Shanny. Maybe there is something to be said for someone who can provide a bit of buffer between the players and an over intense head coach.

[-Slap-]

Besides Tredici's excellent examples of Kubiak's prowess, I submit his work with Steve Young.

In his one season in San Francisco as quarterbacks coach, he guided Young to league MVP honors. Young posted an NFL-record 112.8 quarterback rating and was named MVP of Super Bowl XXIX after tossing a Super Bowl-record six touchdown passes.

Sounds to me like Kubiak has been successful with Hall of Famers like John Elway and Steve Young as well as with much less talented quarterbacks like Jake Plummer and David Carr. I'm only sorry Jay Cutler won't benefit from his guidance.

Some of us said when we signed Heimerdinger that Jake would miss having Kubiak as a buffer between him and Shanahan and its obvious we were dead on the money.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=955039&postcount=27

[BroncoBuff]

And in case anybody hasn't mentioned it, David Carr of the 1-win Texans leads the league in QB efficiency rating right now.

[Taco John]

Don't forget that Carr also leads the league in completion percentage at 73%.

Kubiak has done a hell of a job with this kid.

[Popps]

I don't think there's a person on this board who doesn't wish Kubes was still here.

Odd, because he was bashed beyond belief by many on this board for a couple of years, or assumed to be nothing but a Shanny-puppet. Funny how he's revered as a great coach, now.

Wish he could have stuck around a couple more seasons, but.. it had been a long time.

[Blueflame]

I don't think there's a person on this board who doesn't wish Kubes was still here.

Odd, because he was bashed beyond belief by many on this board for a couple of years, or assumed to be nothing but a Shanny-puppet. Funny how he's revered as a great coach, now.

Wish he could have stuck around a couple more seasons, but.. it had been a long time.

I don't wish Kubes was still here. I'm happy for him that he got his opportunity as a HC and wish him all the best with his new team. I wish Elway were still here... ;)